The Truth About Persona 5's Premise // Importance of Japanese Sociocultural Context
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- Many analyses on Persona 5 (and P5R) are often lacking because of a failure to take the unique Japanese premise into account. P5's narrative highlights many sociocultural issues that are unique to the nation of Japan, as confirmed by Director Hashino's interviews, so I will be going over those and will briefly explain the differences in East Asian culture and that of the Western world, the latter being the perspective of most P5 analyzers. The proper context will add much to your understanding of the complexities in this "social commentary" on modern Japanese society.
NO P5R STORY SPOILERS IN THIS VIDEO
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro // Authorial Intent & Reader Response
3:22 Interviews w Hashino / P5's Themes & Narrative
7:24 Collectivist & East Asian Culture ≠ Western Individualism
___________________________________________________
🎮TWITCH: / ladyvirgilia
🐤TWITTER: @VirgiliaLady / virgilialady
🌟PATREON: / ladyvirgilia
GENSHIN LORE CHANNEL~
/ ladyvirgiliagenshin
NEW "STREAM HIGHLIGHTS" CHANNEL~
LadyVirgilia Ventures:
/ @ladyvirgiliaventures593
**Save 10% when buying the finest, organic, fair-trade teas from ART OF TEA, while also supporting the channel, using my affiliate link: www.shareasale.com/u.cfm?d=92...
At checkout, use COUPON CODE: AOTAFFILIATE10
____________________________________________________
Links to Sources:
Intro Song = Colors Flying High Instrumental Vers. by Anthony Seeha
• Persona 5 Royal - Colo...
Hashino Interview with 4Gamer
personacentral.com/persona-5-...
Full Hashino Interview with USGamer
www.usgamer.net/articles/hash...
Hashino's Pleasant Surprise at Positive Western Response
personacentral.com/message-di...
Filial Piety & Confucianism
www.thoughtco.com/filial-piet...
#Persona5Analysis #JapaneseCulture #Persona5RoyalAnalysis - Hry
Not saying other analyses are outright bad! Just that they're missing a little something to give them that extra oomph :P
🎮TWITCH: www.twitch.tv/ladyvirgilia
🐤TWITTER: @VirgiliaLady twitter.com/VirgiliaLady
🌟PATREON: www.patreon.com/LadyVirgilia
GENSHIN LORE CHANNEL~
czcams.com/users/LadyVirgiliaGenshin
Oh no, most are outright bad with a side of stupid. They are trying to parse a game based in Japan and Japanese culture with a Western (quazi-American-left) lens. They failed in P4 and P4G so naturally, they failed in P5 and P5R.
@@WatcherPrime they fail to understand the Problem in P5 just like they fail to understand the important of Kanji and Naoto struggles in Japan society during the times of the game
It’s not bad it just needs a little… shaping!
YO! EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Ryuji said "shitty/rotten adult" I felt it TO MY VERY CORE! And I didn't need ANY additional context TO FEEL Ryuji's passion IN MY SOUL. ALTHOUGH I agree it is important and it is also very nice to have.
(I really enjoyed the video and hope more people see it. Thank you goodbye.)
This is something that I wanted to see, as someone who did a paper in college about the dialetic relationship between media and local culture, and the country I used as a case study was exactly Japan. I specially think this context is extremely important for Shido, whixh is why most people seem to think he is a weak villain, but when taken as a "symbol" for the underlying systemical problems in japanese politics, he makes perfect sense for a picaresque story like P5's.
And, it was a very nice idea to start it off with a cultural overview and some basis in confucianism. I'm look forward to seeing the rest of the analysis! I'm sure I will get some good insight if I ever want to develop more on the paper!
Your paper sounds like an awesome read :)
And yes, Shido is such a good symbol in the context of modern Japan's political issues *and* the picaresque narrative!
Thank you! I'm sure I can learn a lot about literary and media criticism from you as well, so I look forward to whatever other thoughtful comments you may leave in future videos!
So something I want to bring up here: I see a lot of Persona fans who acknowledge the Japanese context of this series and talk about it in terms of Japan vs "the West". The thing is, there's more than one "west". I find most of these people mean America specifically when they talk about "the West", and while that's a good comparison in a lot of cases I'd like to hear what European and Australian Persona fans think of the series.
I'm Australian, and I can't exactly claim to speak for "my culture" or anything, but all these discussions of individualism vs collectivism are interesting to me because I've always felt Australia was a balance of both. We're broadly considered a "western" nation in terms of ideology, but I find we don't lean as far in the direction of individualism as America does, and we have some elements of more stereotypically Asian collectivism, "helping out your mates" being kind of an Aussie slogan. We also don't have as much of an anti-authoritarian culture, and I find there's a tendency to attack corrupt authority with irony and satire rather than outright rebellion. But it's also very hard to pin down "Australian culture" since we're an extremely multicultural society, we've got people from all over the world living here, and we're also comparatively small, and, kinda unrelated, but our gamer culture is tiny thanks to "the Australia tax" and horrible internet.
We're nowhere near as extreme in the collectivist direction as Japan, obviously. I just wondered how other Australian (and non-American western) Persona fans view this series.
You bring up such a great point! There are definitely nuances across the different "Western" cultures. Like you said, people will typically think of Americans when talking about the really "individualistic/counterculture accepting" West. It probably stems in no large part to how most of the major ENG Persona youtubers, etc. are from the U.S., and North America as a whole (don't worry, I didn't forget you Canada :P)
Thank you for sharing your perspective as someone from Australia! It is interesting to hear about how being in such a melting pot makes it so that the culture adopts bits and pieces of both individualistic and collectivist values. I'm from California which is a huge melting pot as well, so I always felt that same ability to understand both the "Western" and "Eastern" viewpoint!
and hopefully your gamer culture can grow more in the future!
Would definitely love to hear from other non-American Westerners about this topic!
@@LadyVirgilia I don't claim to be an expert or anything, I just think the different perspectives are interesting.
Also, I love your Trails series videos.
As an Asian that has studied in Melbourne for the past few years, I'd say that characterising "helping out your mates" as collectivism is a bit of a stretch. My experience is that it literally just means helping your close friends out, instead of actually prioritising the good of the group (e.g. extended families or society) over one's self. Most non-Australians would see "helping out your mates" as just being a decent human being rather than Australians in general having an attitude that leans towards collectivism. Similarly, it's hard to use multiculturalism as an explanation for the inability to pin down what Australian culture is due to the fact that, despite popular rhetoric on how there are "too many Chinese", Australia is still predominantly White.
^ Not meant as an argument, simply trying to introduce a different POV.
@@Winddragoon Thank you for that POV.
I definitely don't have a big enough picture of all of Australia to be making generalizations, and I've had a bit of an unconventional experience, I was often the only white person in most of my classes and clubs at university.
@@BigKlingy Oh yeah, you'd definitely be the exception to the rule in that sense. But at the very least, your interest in Japanese culture (I'm assuming) will definitely give you a more holistic understanding of how the world operates as opposed to only mixing with White Aussies. I always think that it's more interesting if you can live in two different worlds and introduce people on both ends to the other side.
Great video! I personally haven't seen many analysis videos on Persona 5, but it's unquestionable how thoroughly "Japanese" the game is from the characters, themes, politics, and everything else. You absolutely cannot view it through a western lens and make critiques about what you would or wouldn't personally do in Joker or the other character's situation,when the context of how society and everyone part of it is so completely different. Like Ark1237 was saying earlier, no part of the game illustrates this better than the first hour with everyone from the students, to the teachers, to even Sojiro who volunteered to care for him, treat him like dirt and empathize "this is a country run by law". The "I don't give a poop" individualistic spirit isn't the same as how it is in the West -- Joker's new criminal record runs cuts so deep that it literally took the help of magical powers for him to overcome that. The same goes for each of his growing band of friends who are rebelling not just against their own personal situations, but in a way against how Japanese society treats them and people that are viewed as being "outside-the-norm".
How powerless Makoto felt and why she continuously fell in line, why Sojiro chose to just go into hiding; why the students were petrified to speak out against Kamoshida for fear of not just his wrath, but for letting the school's reputation down which has much more emphasis than it would be in a Western perspective. Sae Niijma's struggles to break the glass ceiling and climb the ranks of a male-dominated field, which people in the West could definitely get behind, are compounded that much more when you frame it through a Japanese perspective -- one character literally "advises" her to take a break to get married. Even something as "basic" as Ryuji's dyed blonde hair would be a HUGE no-no considering Japan's homogeneous culture and hard stance on uniformity. It would be a minor fashion statement in the West, but in Japan this alone sets him up as being rebellious and not just by the school. He probably gets stared at a bit wherever he goes. While he wears it with pride, it's (just) one reason why everyone considers him a scary vulgar degenerate even though, once you spend just a few minutes with him, you realize he's actually a good guy. And don't even get me started on Ann!
Against the backdrop of collectivist Japan, it actually incredibly heightens just what the Phantom Thieves are because stepping so starkly outside the norm is immensely more potent that it would be if it were portrayed in a Western country. If you think of how the general public would be uncertain and fearful of the supernatural Thieves and the growing mental episodes in a Western individualistic country, try imagining it in a collectivist country like Japan!! it gives so much more context as to why everyone was so afraid of them and why they still clung so much to Shido in spite of the growing evidence of his crimes. It's not because people are stupid, but because society places so much emphasis on respecting your elders, teachers, police, leaders, and senpai's that it would take a miracle for people to accept deviants like the Phantom Thieves.
Haha, I could go on and on, but I completely agree with you and how absolutely necessary it is for EVERY player to view the story through the lens it's made for: a Japanese lens. It's built into the game's very DNA and while there are definitely relatable themes that most anybody in the West could get behind, viewing the story through a Japanese lens gives absolutely every corner of the game so much more context and weight because that's what it was made for. At the very least, it's a requirement if you were trying to offer any critique on the game's narrative :).
Long post, but great video!! ^^
Thank you for this thoughtful comment. You made some great points!
I can especially get behind how society wasn't "stupid" for reelecting Shido even after his confession. Japanese people place a lot more trust in their leaders and institutions compared to the populace of many Western nations, especially those in the U.S.
It shouldn't be all that surprising when the people chose to place their trust in Shido vs. the deviant Phantom Thieves when viewed through the proper Japanese context~
I thought the things you were talking about were obvious but that's coming from a South Asian/South East Asian perspective of mine.
same bro. The sociocultural issues Persona 5 brings up is very relatable where I'm from
The west can understand oppression from hierarchies but for different reasons. Although, I think there are similarities as in when elders think they know enough just because they've reached a goal in their lives or lived long enough, they'll brush off criticism from the younger generation. At least that's how I see it coming from the United states.
It also depends where in the US you are. California alone is roughly 10% larger than Japan. While we definitely share more of an acceptance of anger and rebellion, different pockets of the country very much so have different social standards. In some parts it’s the culture of coded speech and talking around the issue and in others a pressure for academic/workplace success. There’s also very much so a culture of claiming someone’s struggles are a personal failure of some kind and they should just “tough it out” which likely spawns from late stage capitalism. Not to mention the general idea of minority oppression represented in the game (women both in the workplace and with standard of beauty with Ann, Sae and Makoto, Disability and depression with Futaba, poverty with Yusuke and Akechi, and societal rejection with… everyone) tends to resonate with anyone who has been pushed down for no fault of their own. That’s why I think the game still resonated with an American audience. We may not treat everyone as one big group, but we very much so put people in little boxes that can determine how they are placed in the heirachy of society.
I feel that P5 gets a lot of unwarranted flak at times so I'm glad this video did the themes, narrative, and characterization that it was meant to convey justice. When looking beyond the surface level,, P5 is a surprisingly deep social commentary on the holes in Japan's social system.
Agreed it tends to sometimes become grating when seeing people make comments or analysis through a western lens that slip into values dissonance subconsciously forgetting that P5 is a Japanese game, made by Japanese developers with a premise and setting in modern Japanese society where it's message is essentially a social commentary of real life Japanese society. Not to sound stuck up but for those people out there at least do a little research before you make big statements that end up making it look lacking. I'm not some expert of the culture myself but I at least try to be well informed to get better context than a majority of fans here in the West. Granted as you said with reader's responses aren't necessarily wrong or bad but they miss the mark a lot. Looking forward to more insight to the in depth cultural aspect of Japanese society ingrained in P5.
Thank you for this video! This is the first P5 analysis I've watched that takes into consideration the sociopolitical context of Japan, and it's honestly a breath of fresh air.
One thing I've noticed in other analysis or playthroughs is that many players don't believe that the "rotten adults" in the game are based on actual people. For example, I've heard complaints about Kamoshida cause he is a known abuser and no one does shit about it, which for some people is highly unrealistic due to their cultural background. Being Italian, I can perfectly see how a "Kamoshida" could exist in real life: this kind of corruption is something I see almost on a daily basis in the news, it's so widely known that we actually have a specific word to indicate it, "Omertà" (a code/conspiracy of silence used to protect criminals with a preminent role in society).
Anyway, I'm so glad I've found your channel! Your videos are amazing c:
I am Mexican and oh boy we are similar to Japanese culture. What the Phantom thieves experience in school many of my people and I did. And it is because of the culture of Filial piety. We are technically in the "West," but our culture mimics Japanese a lot. If you are bad at school, the system will isolate you from progress and so on.
I mean, maybe in settings where conformity is expected, like in school. Otherwise the cultures are very different from food etiquette, familial relations, how loud you can be, etc. are all very different in Japan compared to Mexico. Politically Mexico is also just on a whole nother level. It mostly is a result of Spanish colonialism and much of Latin America's weird clinginess to it. A lot of those cultures embrace and enforce Catholic ideals, which tend to be very conservative, demanding conformity. Japanese culture is collectivist but largely atheistic. People are just expected to be reserved and indirect. Any resemblances between their culture and a Western one like Mexico are more coincidence than not. Japan borrows some stuff from Western countries, like some foods from Portugal, loanwords from American English, and a constitutional government from Germany.
As someone who’s Indian, us too. It’s way too familiar
@@hypotheticaltapeworm does it matter? For instance, the reference to filial piety, whether it stems from Abrahamic or Confucian teachings is irrelevant to his point. Both cultures place an importance on it and therefore that is a similarity they share. Imagine convergent evolution applied to cultures. Tigers and Zebra don't have much in common aside from stripes, but they both still sport stripes.
Compadre, the system isolates you wheter you do too bad or "too good" at school. Source: I'll regret all the effort I put into school for the rest of my life, only to reach college and being told that math is made by politicians, not scientists (arguments and ideologies over facts).
@@fenixchief7 Adding to that: Horseshoe effect, two diametrically opposite ideologies, when pushed far enough, end up being closer to each other than to the middle.
Interesting you brought up the matter of Authorial intent. In this case it shows a bit of why "Death of the Author" can cause a bit of missing the exact mark, even if it is a thing that naturally happens sooner, or later, to some extent. Context is always a most important thing, so if you have someone else come along without the proper idea of what the context is to begin with, and offering their own take on events, sooner or later, it will alter how the source material is viewed. Which isn't always a bad thing, as I said, but can as here, cause a bit of issues with completely understanding the matter at hand.
Thank you once more for a great, and well put together video!
@RaveRave93 About "Death of the Author", the following came to mind (though obviously I aint an expert on anything, so it's just me spinning what I got to work with, so take it with a grain of salt) -
I suppose the benefits come in the tale then belonging more to the readers, letting them let loose their imaginations to fill in spaces, create theories, and overall make the world their own one too, making it a much more welcoming/open experience.
Taking into consideration the authors intent (or where they came from writing the tale) also runs the gauntlet ring of trying to understand different cultures, how things are done elsewhere to where one may be, and all the finer details of that, which to someone who is just stumbling to the scene to partake in say, a game, may not be interested in/have the knowledge to do anything with.
Also different cultures being a thing may also genuinely slip someones mind (not everyone is fortunate enough to for example travel abroad, which while not a necessary aspect, does help understand there are very different cultures around the world), if they are convinced enough that the message of a certain aspect rings true enough to even their current surroundings.
I would thus suggest the idea, that if "Death of the Author" did not happen to some extent, a game like Persona 5 which has its Sociocultural roots in the Japanese part of things may not exactly have done as well elsewhere: And the themes of things happening during the story wouldn't resonate with people about things going on currently around them as much as it seems to do. (Barring some rather more universal topics that anyone can relate to.)
That's what came to mind off the top of my head. Hopefully it made some sense. What do you think? Did it?
I think that the authorial intent can bring some insight to the meaning of a story, however, the reason why it probably isn’t absolute is because what we resonate with a story, we have no idea what the authorial intent is. I would say that the author’s insights evolve an understanding of the work, but the original interpretation can be just as important.
@@thomasffrench3639 It can provide that, yes. The author does need to remain dead for their work to live. Or missing, in whereas they can still occasionally come around and share their thoughts. Though, it's kind of one of those "is it a good idea to do?" -things, too, as sometimes it's better to let the chips fall and people to turn the puzzle pieces around on their own.
Is this just a more polite clapback of Cvit's tone deaf Persona 5 video?
I wouldnt be surprised if it was
This is why I turn away from the western fandom analyses and story critique so much. I'm South East Asian so the backdrop and setting and social norms featured in Persona 5 are so familiar to me (especially the part of the story where the students are exploited by criminal cartels in Makoto's arc because hoo boy my own country's laws absolves teenagers from being judged and tried. Even though it's not the same situation in P5, the running theme of children being exploited is very prominent.)! I need to find more Asian fans... orz.
Thank you for making this video!
THANK YOU for making this video. One of the reasons why I find the original P5 so fascinating is because certain elements of it gain more potency when viewed through a Japanese or East Asian context. The real world setting certainly adds to that as well.
I'm of (South) East Asian descent but I'm also American, so it's been fun for me to analyze P5 in this "academic" way, and I get a little frustrated when I see people critique the game (or other Persona games) from a mainly Western perspective. there's nothing wrong with that ofc (I'm assuming Japan does share some global values like everywhere else), but it'd definitely benefit some critics if they understood the authorial intent you touch upon.
I also just started playing P5R, so I'm interested in seeing the ways it expands upon these sociopolitical themes.
Hi ! I'm a P5(R) player and fan from France. In advance, excuse me for my English which is not the most fluent... I would like to share my point of view on this highly japanese game as a French woman. First, I think P5 has had its success "in the West" because of how awesome is its gameplay/design/OST, even without analyzing the writing. It creates a strong cohesion making P5 a unique experience. Then, I'd like to point out how special Japan is for us French : we are the second most manga-consuming country in the world, for example. As a person, I've met Japanese culture in my childhood thanks to manga, anime, and Miyazaki's work. Since then, I've read a lot about it and I feel close to this culture, or at least I think I get the main values of this culture. For instance, I had noticed from different stories this thing about the "rotten adults" by comparing P5 to "Rhapsody in August" (Akira Kurosawa 1991) where a group of cousins grow fond to their grandma when their parents just want to take advantage of her. Anyways, what I mean is that I think I "get" the context (which is different from "understanding" it, that's why your videos are really cool to go deeper in the analyzes !!).
Back to Persona 5 ! I think the main limit to understanding the game for me comes from its subtext. Indeed, it is quite difficult for a feminist to go through a whole arc where the PThieves punish a rapist and then be put in the place of an impotent witness of Ann's visual treatment. She is so much over-sexualized, and sometimes sexual harrassment is played as a joke, moslty when she interacts with Ryuji. Like, most of the cutscenes revolve around how the boys (Ryujiii) are all attracted to her and can't control their desire. There is also few dialogues on how women should behave (about food, about temper etc). Also, you can't date boys...!!
From my point of view, P5 is limited by its potential audience (heterosexual young boys) and by the fan service culture, putting everybody else aside on this matter (LGBTQI+ romances / women visual treatment).
This thinking brought me to another question which is : in a collectivist culture, where speaking up can be problematic, how activism for LGBTQI+/women's rights/racial issues is organized? And how is it possible that P5 missed those points ? Is it because they had to please the main audience ? Ain't it ironic considering the themes of the game ?
--
In the other hand, I think most of the confident stories were relatable thanks to their individualities and the personal journey they all went throught. The writers really did a great job because none of the character feels rushed, thanks to that, you feel the deepness of their being and you can develop empathy for them even if there are cultural differences. Plus, you get to spend more than a hundred hours with them so they kind are part of your life as well !
I hope my comment is not rude or anything and I also need to say that even if I point out negative things of Persona 5 I really love this game, it has a special place in my heart, I'm so happy it even exists... It gave me hope and strenght to keep going during this shitty quarantine coronavirus situation. Thanks for reading me !
I feel like a lot of those ideas need to gain consensus first before those kinds of rights evolve. Societal change is natural whether it’s front and center like it is in America, or is way more slow. I cannot speak for Japan, but from what I’ve heard a lot of Japanese women have had more places in the office space than they used to, but they still have some stuff where it hasn’t progressed as much. Although I do think that we wouldn’t see as much flip flop back because of how slow it takes to progress. I could be talking out of my ass tho
"how activism for LGBTQI+/women's rights/racial issues is organized? And how is it possible that P5 missed those points ?" The answer as far as I know (based on both the information on this channel and having gone there myself) is that it practically doesn't exist. Considering the very strong cultural focus on humility and not rocking the boat, that type of very upfront, loud and in your face western style activism would likely garner nothing but intense, unrelenting backlash from the general population there. It's not that the game "missed those points", it's that in everyday Japanese life, those "points" aren't things you get to witness _at_ _all_ . If your perspective is to wonder _how_ feminism works in Japan rather than whether it's even acknowledged, I recommend you spend time visiting Akihabara (the infamous "geeky dristrict" of Tokyo). You're likely to witness some rather edifying imagery that is certainly nowhere to be seen on the face of Paris or, for that matter, just about any modern Western city...
Same goes for... Well, all of Persona, really. But especially 4.
That's true to some extent for all the games! And indeed the one with the most social commentary besides P5 is P4. Especially Kanji, Naoto, and Adachi's arcs.
I personally think P5 is just much greater in scope, since it focuses on such a large variety of macro-level issues dealing with the societal problems and politics of modern Japan.
I'm looking forward to dissecting P4 though once I'm done with more P5 content!
@@LadyVirgilia Kanji and Naoto get the most focus when it comes to cultural differences, but replaying P4 recently, I actually think Rise gets misunderstood a lot too, since her dungeon and Social Link are heavily tied to Japan's idol industry and much of the criticism and one might say satire of it featured there flies over a lot of fans' heads.
Rise is still a decently popular character in spite of this, but I feel like some of the layers to her arc are often missed. (And from what I hear Dancing All Night's story mode is even more brutally anti-idol)
is that Fire Emblem Fates music? neato.
Yes it is! Past Light ~calm vers. to be exact.
Nice catch!
Thank you for making this video LadyVirgilia, it really puts many of the story aspects and characters decisions into perspective when considering Eastern cultures focus on the collective and the many faults that can come from such a mindset when those in power take advantage of the system.
I know you're not trying to call anyone out but it's really easy for critics to claim certain aspects of the game don't make sense when they don't put in the effort to research the cultural differences between their views and Eastern ideas, which P5 very clearly focuses on.
One example I can think of is when a particular critic would keep saying things like "Joker should've just gone to the police" for many of the confidants. This makes little sense when you just take into consideration that many of the people he associates with are powerless in their situations and Joker himself is essentially ostracized from Japanese society due to his new criminal record. The first hour of P5 pretty much beats you over the head with how serious this is taken by anyone with authority and the harsh treatment Joker receives despite just trying to help someone in need.
I know P5 and Royal aren't perfect, there's plenty of issues that could be and has been critiqued by reviews. However, I've seen a lot of people make objective claims on the story and characters in the lens of Western society, despite this flying in the face of the entire games setting and themes.
People can have their opinions, but if they want to be taken seriously by anyone with the ability to think for themselves, they need to have well thought out reasons for making claims of quality and do some research on the subject before saying things like "Persona 5 is all style with no substance".
Sorry for the lengthy comment, this video and MangaKamen's response to Cvit concerning P5 lit a fire of passion for this topic when it comes to analyzing a games content and I just had to say my peace on it after watching this.
You hit the nail on the head!
Because of readers response as a concept, it's a person's prerogative to argue whatever opinion they have as long as they can make some kind of case for it from the text. *But,* it's also as you say... that an argument can be less convincing than others when it doesn't take the context that the author had in mind into account.
Yup, P5's execution isn't anywhere near flawless, but it did so many great things considering the sheer ambition of its narrative.
and you're not wrong that Cvit's video was one of the reasons I wanted to make this series haha :P I've seen MangaKamen's response videos floating around and am interested in watching them when I get the chance!
Thank you so much for this thoughtful comment and please don't ever apologize for it! I really appreciate comments like these :)
@@LadyVirgilia Thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate your response :)
I would definitely recommend giving MangaKamen's response to Cvit a watch, he actually just posted his final part not that long ago. Just be prepared for a long haul though, there was a lot for him to unpack.
Your series on Persona 5 has been excellent so far LadyVirgilia, keep up the great work but also take your time and stay safe!
@@Ark1437
I actually prefer P5 over P4 and P3. But that doesn't mean the other 2 are bad.
I think the most egregious "crotique" is the one where they croticize something that was present in previous Persona games.
This is so good! I've always been one to love looking deeply into the cultural inspirations for stories, why writers write what they write, and when it comes to P5 in particular I've always been fascinated to learn more of these aspects of Japanese culture that the game is clearly tackling. I am an Arab myself and it suffices to say that we are certainly much more collectivist than 'Western' cultures. I was particularly intrigued by the concept of filial piety, we basically have that same exact concept in our culture, but it doesn't really have a 'name' like that, it simply is how things are.
Thanks for all your hard work in continually puting these videos together. They've been a real help in understanding the meaning and context of this game!
This was a very good video! Thanks for making it!
So I just came here from your Twitter. It's really nice to hear an analysis of the culture of the game from the perspective of someone who's Japanese.
Binging your entire catalogue of Persona 5 videos very soon. Having completed the game recently, I’ve taken a huge interest into the sociocultural issues of Japan and am looking into analyses that tackle the characters and story under a rigid and appropriate lens that flesh out what they truly represent in society today! Thx so much for making these videos, and I’m glad to be able to learn so much from this fantastic game free of charge as well! Really appreciate it :)
Great anlysis as always!
Love your P5 analysis videos! Have learned a lot from the cultural context and social commentary
Thank you so much for these videos! I've been wanting to better understand the sociocultural context of p5, but I wasn't sure how to go about doing that
thank you for this video, it was very informative ! a lot of the values and problems that p5 displayed pretty much ended resonating with me in my own culture with the collectivist society, extreme placement on respecting your elders and familial ties but it was really interesting to see how it was supposed to be related to within its original context so once again thank you for this and amazing job ! keep up the good work :D
Yes! that's so cool to hear that P5 resonated with you due to a similar collectivist culture!
It's definitely not just East Asia that is like this. Pretty much all other parts of Asia, and many parts of Africa and South America are collectivist (though different in their own ways) ^^
Really good video. I’m going to be using some of these ideas in my IB extended essay on persona 5. 4000 words so yeah very cool.
developer interviews are p dope, i remember a couple months ago i read some bout SMT Nocturne now i see the game in an entirely new way and i appreciate the game way more lookin at it from a new perspective. too bad folk dont care enough to read them tho lmao bcz society bad
This is a very good series of videos I found. Will be helpful for a report
This was interesting, definitely added context I didnt consider when playing
Glad to hear it! ^^
Great video lady!! I haven’t seen a perspective like this when it comes to jrpgs 🤝
Thank you for this video. It really made me want to pick up Persona 5 again. I tried to play it a couple years ago but got burnt out after the pyramid palace. Starting anew with P5R and keeping the cultural context in mind is a really appealing idea for my next game....maybe after I finish Trails to Azure (just made it to the Epilogue and I'm nerding out) and Cold Steel 3.
I was playing persona 5 on Japanese voice and just realized the school is basically called prisoner academy, cause the twins kept calling me shujin.
I guess you opened my eyes in regards to some of the problems I, and many others, had with the dialogue singling out a specific age demographic despite the fact that the Phantom Thieves targeted people such as the Shujin bullies and the burglary ring.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I'm a *very* "Death of the Author" kind of reader, but I'm glad for videos like this. Even if I end up rejecting authorial intent in the end, I'd rather know what exactly I'm disagreeing with.
Thanks for video lady
I agree with you 100%. It's why your Makoto video is one of my favourites. And it's why a lot of people get tripped up by Persona 5's ending. A lot of people think that P5 has to do with self-identification and freedom, which is why an ending that seemingly pushes collectivist thinking is so abhorrent to them. P5 is more of a commentary on East Asian collectivism and the grounds on which societal change should be justified. It's something that blows a lot of Westerners minds because it is such a foreign concept to them. And (as I mentioned on your Makoto video) it's probably why priestess arcana characters tend to be less popular in the west than in Japan, because the ideas are just so radically different. There is an appreciation for characters like Yukiko that target something very specific to the culture, that Westerners won't get.
To be fair, a lot of people like to take a universalist mindset when it comes to analysis, which I don't think is a bad thing. Jungian theory itself owes a lot to universalism. I always find though that universalism makes a lot of assumptions based on Western schools of thought and development. Not all cultures value equality, freedom and individualism. It's why I like to personally take a cultural relativist mindset when discussing things that are more culturally specific, like Persona (I suspect you are this way as well, though I would not put words in your mouth). P5 comments on things that are very specific to Japan, like Japan's mentoring culture, sexual harassment, ideas of obligation, academic stress, etc. Leave the universalism to mainline SMT, which focuses more on political and moral theory.
As someone of East Asian background and as someone who has lived in Japan, I have wanted to make a video or an essay defending P5's "terrible" ending through a cultural relativist lens. I'm a pretty crap editor, but I might get around to it.
Oh my I'm sorry I missed your thoughtful comment on my Makoto video! Great points about the priestess arcana characters. Fuuka and Yukiko's fanbases seem much smaller in the Western fanbase. Makoto is probably the exception because she has so much plot relevance to P5's main story.
and I agree with you that a universalist mindset makes an awfully large amount of assumptions based on Western tradition and understanding. It ends up with me being quite at odds with it, since I very much enjoy Jungian theory and concepts, especially with how it has influenced the Persona games. But otherwise, I agree that it's always best to take a cultural relativist perspective with any given work~
I would be very interested in watching/reading your essay on P5's ending if you get around to it!
@@LadyVirgilia I think Makoto being the exception stems from where she breaks the mold from Priestess characters. She still has that strong sense of obligation and Confucian values that the Priestess Arcana types have, but her interpretation of those values creates a more rebellious (and thereby more individualistic) character. But her rebellious nature stems from those Confucian values. I mean she even yells Tekken Seisai during her All-Out Attack. I think that gives a clear indication of what she represents.
Yo, palace rulers video foreshadowing all the way back here! 😁
I very much agree with you in how people tend to use "death of the author" as an excuse to justify never trying to understand why the creator made the story a certain way, and it's very apparent in the Persona fandom. Here, people will constantly judge characters through a western lens rather than try and see what the original intent even was to begin with. Whether it's Yukari and Mitsuru in P3, Yukiko, Kanji, and Naoto in P4, and a lot of things in P5, they seem to think everything can be judged from their perspective and not a Japanese one.
As someone who grew up in the United States, I feel like there is always going to be a lot I'm missing from my understanding of Persona 5. Regardless, I love the series. And your analyses make me appreciate the game and characters even more, even if I originally didn't like a character. So thank you for continuing to open my eyes and expand my awareness.
I absolutely love this series. I really appreciate all the time and effort put into these analyses. I've come to realize that a lot of the criticisms I had about the plot came from a Western viewpoint. I was too quick to judge. I would say things like, "This makes no sense! You're telling me that there's only 1 other student in the entire high school with a rebellious streak? Everyone else loves school and loves authority? What kind of high school is this?!". Of course, that was a prime example of the cultural differences that you have to understand in order to see what the devs were trying to convey. After you so wonderfully explained the difference between Western individualism and the collectivist structure of Japanese society, I finally understood. Fighting against authority to defend your individual rights would be seen as a selfish act there because they value what the individual can bring to the collective more than individual freedoms. Just learning that bit of info allowed me to see the setting and narrative through a new and better informed lens. In that culture, nails that stick out get hammered in. When you consider that, it's much easier to empathize and relate to the characters that have been shunned by society just for being different even though those traits would be valued in the west. Thanks for enlightening me about the cultural and societal differences that were completely foreign to me. I have a much deeper appreciation for P5 because of it.
I hope your video gets a wide recognition, because the themes you mentioned are really important for really understanding the game. I too have been a bit disappointed almost everytime I read commentaries on Japanese games or other media, because often these nuances are passed over.
Personally while playing PS5 I thought about Buddhist thoughts regarding emptiness as the original face of reality and every living thing. In my opinion, this theme was evident in Jokers assuming different personas, him thus being empty of any inherent being. Or to contrast this with a more Western notion, Joker becomes what he is through his use of personas, and by his relationships with his friends, not by being an individual, divided from everyone else. To be honest, I'm not really sure if this connection exist in the game or if I'm just imagining it Haha.
Still, I'm very much looking forward for your other videos!
@Kira D Thank you! I agree with you, the themes I was referring to could also be explored through Jungian psychology! Perhaps in conjunction with Buddhist psychology/philosophy Jungian psychology would bring about an interesting analysis of the game 🤔
Thx!!!
This. I just started playing the game for myself (don't get at me with fan-purisim) and I noticed the way Japan is portrayed in P5. My mom, brother, and I like to watch things about Japan and its culture, channels like Let’s Ask Shogo and personal vlogs from people who live in Japan but are from the west. And these things that you pointed out match up with the negative aspects we saw while watching these channels. The aforementioned Shogo has made a couple videos talking about how elderly Japanese people are favored over the youngsters and how that has affected the youth. And I think it's really cool that in a way, the game let's me see what it's like in Japan, and how it could be better.
Persona 5 is my favorite story
P5 was so ambitious and did a lot of things right fosho!
Gouto>>>>>>Morgana
The meaning of life according to Viktor Frankl lies in finding a purpose and taking responsibility for ourselves and other human beings. By having a clear “why” we can face all the “how” questions of life. Only by feeling free and sure of the objective that motivates us will we be able to make the world a better place.
My own views and analysis
I studied some history of religion in college, mostly focusing on Judeo-Christian religions, and their writings, especially the Bible, look a lot different when you take into account what we know of the ancient civilizations the stories took place in. A lot gets lost in translation and much of what they teach in church is interpreted through a modern lens. It's quite fascinating.... and often really messed up.
that's really cool to hear you studied some of that, let alone found it interesting! it seems very rare nowadays.
Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis is actually one of my favorite things to study as a life-long Christian, and I was fortunate enough to study some at a Bible college. It taught me why historical and cultural context is so important, and is partly the reason why I wanted to do this series on proper Japanese context.
at some point I'd like to do some videos on the history of Christianity/Catholicism in Japan and how that likely influences the "JRPG church."
@@LadyVirgilia I originally wanted to be a pastor or teacher but I can't stand to be a part of the religion anymore and I no longer believe in God. I find much of the church's teaching doesn't encourage critical thinking, at least in America. Despite that, I still find Christianity fascinating from an academic perspective. A video on Christianity in Japan would be super fascinating. The portrayal of the church in Anime and games from Japan is often very different from the west. The scene with Yusuke in P5 was hillarious.
Oh I see. I absolutely agree with you when it comes to the Church's teachings in the average American establishment. I know for a fact that the AmEriCaN eVanGeLiCaLs think I'm an absolute heathen for the way I engage in works from many other religions and my political views, but I continue to be informed by scripture. It's no surprise to me why the Church in general fails to speak to the needs of the current generation and is losing members though (at least, in the West).
Glad to hear of the interest in the Japan and Christianity video btw!
This kind of video, funnily enough, highlights to me how latin culture differs from american's. It's easy to me to include myself in the "western culture" moniker, because of course there's a lot of similarities, but for example to me it's kind of absurd that you have to explain the concept of filial piety, which is also very strong in latin cultures in general, albeit applied differently, given the general expansive nature of latin culture. Not much of a point in my comment, more of an anecdote.
@Kira D wow I'm really sorry about your experience with that terrible teacher. Ryuji's plot must have touched you very personally, I imagine. Hope you're doing well.
5:43 so do you think it’s a coincidence that the Palace bosses represent the 7 Deadly Sins? Kamoshida is obviously Lust, Madarame is Vanity, the Japanese public is Sloth, and so on.
Perhaps the world traveling adventure could be fully realized in persona 6.
what is shinro shidou? i googled it but didn't get anything
This is great. Off topic to some people but this is what makes me think of why people like and don't like FROMSOFTWARE (souls games). The developer intent and vision matters so much that a lot of people don't want to take the time to understand. And I think it's matters.
Imma be honest... I don’t think any culture favors individualism anymore. You see how nuts everyone gets when you don’t agree with them?
It's worldwide problems...
Not just east or west.
So what about when the ideas and the politics in P5 intersect with political frameworks in other geographical locations? Like the commentary of the overworked employees in Okumura's palace could be broadly applied to workers all over the world. The Phantom Thieves could change the heart of a greedy CEO in the world of Persona somewhere outside of Japan even though the game's developers based it in and centered the game around Japanese culture and issues. It seems like what you're saying is that a lot of western analyses need the sociocultural context in addition to what they are saying, not just applying the themes in a western bubble. What I'm getting at is idk how to parse my thoughts together about this game without knowing a lot about Japanese culture or the creator's backstory. There are a lot of ideas being put out there and a lot of the themes and intertextualities such as the tarot cards and persona origins that come from a mesh of lots of other cultures. So at what point is this piece of media designed for a certain group transcend the author's intended meaning and become applicable to another group with different values?
God, the denial of authorial intent is so frustrating to me, and this is a fantastic example of why. Art does not spring out of nowhere, art does not exist independent of who created it. The only reason the text is there and has the contents which it does is because it was deliberately made that way by the author. Art is only the way it is because the author put it there.
I love your P5 videos I did not see them all yet so I don't know if in some of the you have the change o dos you talk about the lack of LGBT representation on the game, nor characters or social links, the only one I can Think is lala.
I'll try to not come up with one of my signature Bibles...
In a country so deeply rooted in organized crime and a planet literally being boiled. I can see the point the writers have.
However... I am a Final Fantasy XIII fan...
That means that yes, I try to be aware of Authorial Intent (even if most dbzealots (long story) would rather deflect any discussion about the toriyamas' capacity), but I have to be aware that _execution_ also matters.
And this is relevant because I fell P5 doesn't fully commit to it's themes of rebellion.
Like, as much as "realism", Joker still going back to parents who basically ditched him _and_ cut all comunication with him, adding that Royal takes away what little triumph could be argued to objectivelly exist...
"Rebel against society, until the very end, then do what society demands".
And, I can't find the comment complaining about "she´s a woman, not your waifu". Setting aside the wrong idea that the word "waifu" necesitates being entirely sexual in nature....
Whose fault is it? the fans, or the developers that activelly put the already conflicted about sexuality Ann in a motherfucking bikini?
This girl, you're saying her friend was _raped_, _by a teacher_, on what we can pressume _reiterated ocasions_, while also dealing with her own issues.... And you're also telling me she'll pose naked for a guy whose possible autism could be misinterpreted as pervertion (I'm assuming Yusuke being innocent here), and she'll gladly wear clothes which only cover her breasts and crotch.
Yare yare motherfucking daze.
God Damnit. I failed at keeping it short! again...
(Voice of Uncle from Jackie Chan): "One more thing": I wonder if when you get to P4, yo'll dispel the notion that Kanji is gay coded and Naoto trans. Because ironically, from what I've heard (long story, the Ann stuff makes me weary of this subfranchise of SMT), thats is exactly what they feared, the entire point of their shadows even!
(Nothing against the LGBT+ folk, but seriously people...)
"One more thing": I don't care if Marie took too much screentime on P4G, (Ka)Sumire being relegated to a footnote feels off, why even have a new character then? When they could have, say... focused more on Akechi or something...
[And overcorrecting isn't necesarilly good, or do you guys want me to go over the whole "your bitching about FFXIII gave us Cyberpunk and whatever Pokemon is now" thing again? This time with more Jojo references just to piss you off...]
I'm really sorry, way, _waaaay_ too much to say, too little time.
i don't understand how an earthquake is relevant to the plot of a game that doesn't include an earthquake. even if dude said so himself, that doesn't make sense to me.
This probably explains why I didn't enjoy Persona 5 as much as 4 or even 3. In America it's unconscionable for a teacher or coach to hit a student, and litigious parents these days look for reasons to sue anybody, so to see students with bandages and crutches just seemed cartoonish to me.
There's also less of a contrast between "kid" and "adult." When you're a junior in high school you start to see yourself as an adult as your parents (are supposed to) loosen the reigns, so again it came across as kitschy and childish hearing them go "you stupid, corrupt adults!" and not have it dripping with sarcasm.
I wish I could like Persona 5 more, but the music is also not as good as 4 in my opinion. Too much repetition, not enough melody. We were told the soundtrack would be "acid jazz" but there is a sorry lack of funk
(2:57-3:11)
Ah, so you are a woman of culture as well.
Japan is shinto and Buddhist not Confucius.
You're literally saying that to a Japanese descendant when commenting it on this video... but anyway, it's actually all three, and more besides.
To be fair Authorial Intent can only give us context, it cannot change what is actually in the final product that gets shipped.
Persona 5 has brilliant Ideas but weak execution in a lot of areas.
Characters almost exist only to display their respective social issue.
Ann and Ryuji have this particularly bad as their arcs happen early on and aside from the disappointing social links they get little attention for the remainder of a very long game.
Ryuji pulling his stunt on the boat came almost unexpected to me because I had forgotten that he was more than just a party member for gameplay sections at that point.
P5 dedicates each palace almost exclusively to the new person and their issue. There is no Junpei from P3 who suddenly gets a big role after the halfway point despite being with you from the start.
It gives us this formulaic and videogamey feel that removes us from actually connecting with the character's story after their palace is over.
Persona 5 is a universal story for any 1st worlder in our modern globalized world. The game is a synthesis of western psychology and occultism. The japanese did not know about this until the late 19th century, after America's Civil War. There is no missing context where someone will be absolutely confused as to the purpose or meaning. Corruption of heart exists in every human culture.
6:22 - 6:58
I'm a black American man, and I'm ready to say it.
Persona 5 is a misunderstanding in the West. The game is supposed to be aimed towards a specific demographic with its plot, but enjoyed overseas because "JRPG."
Okay, take away the context of the story, the game is still fun, regardless who you are. But the Western audience isn't hit by Japan society standards as much as...Japan, obviously. So that leads Western players to not take the struggles of plot devices, character arcs and symbolism seriously.
Even the localization team struggles in conveying that message. Good luck trying to translate an inside joke only the Japanese would understand. Of course it's gonna get awkward real fast overseas. I don't think there's any way we could truly understand Persona unless we are willing to the study the Japanese language and get a slight feel for its societal way of life. Only a rare few would consider doing that.
As such, every analysis video of P5 is cringeworthy as hell, because these people clearly have little idea what they're talking about, even with all the localized information. It still isn't enough.
If you need an example of Western ignorance on Japanese society, look at P4's Western fanbase. Kanji's sexuality is not at all relevant to the game's plot or even his social link, but for some reason we think it is. Pretty arrogant to force our outlook on a foreign scene we have little understanding on. It's the same with Naoto's gender--if you really paid attention to her arc, you'd know it would go against the point of her Shadow Battle. Wanna know something even funnier? After Naoto accepts her Persona, she still wants to go by male honorifics, which her friends completely respect. And there's no gender pronouns in Japanese language, so that REALLY says something. Isn't that a trans-friendly moment in itself?
Might be harsh to say, but Western audiences need to shut their assumptions up and pay more attention to interpretations. Persona is a great game, but not for the wacky, often far-fetched reasons Westerners come up with for the benefit of their petty self-satisfaction.
P.S. PERSONA GIRLS ARE MORE THAN JUST "WAIFUS!" STOP BEING SEXIST TOWARDS THEIR DEVELOPMENT ARCS!!!