A Look at Chain Slap | Tech Tuesday
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- čas přidán 13. 12. 2021
- CHAIN SLAP! The harbinger of chewed up chain-stays and chipped paint. Many a tear has been shed over the over-gyration of our chains. So how do we cut down on CHAIN SLAP!? Well, Truman and Calvin take an unclose and slooow look at a modern solution in this Tech Tuesday.
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Literally one of the best companies out there in my opinion. Yes there are tools, and yes things cost money but the fact that they output such high quality free educational content for anyone to consume really sets Park Tool apart from the rest.
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Whoa! Showing all the derailleurs and their chain slap at the same time 8:02 is the coolest comparison I've seen in a while, guys. I really appreciate the work that went into this one. Thank you!
Box and TRP doing some great job there!
that tourney footage was awesome, bounce bounce bounce, was having a right party!!
"Get out there and slap a chain!" - Calvin Jones 😂😂😂
My kid's 24" mtb came with a 1 x 8 Tourney. OMG, I couldn't believe the chain slap. I wrapped that chainstay with an old tube after like the first ride! But certainly not going to change it out - she isn't aggressive enough to drop chains, so tube over the chainstay it is.
You should shorten the chain by a few links
I had a 7 speed tourney derailleur on my hybrid bike with by 1x chainring. As the video suggests, I was getting regular chain drops on bumps when in high gear, going down hill fast. Since I switched the rear-wheel drive-train to 11 speed with a clutched Shimano Deore derailleur while keeping the chainring same. In my new setup chain drop issues are gone when the clutch is enabled. With new drive-train I got a chain drop only once when I disabled the clutch to test out its effectiveness. BTW my chainring is not a narrow-wide type, it appears I don't need one.
I like this "bike science" - type approach to the videos: not just product placement, but how the various iterations of bike components technology work. Well done, keep it up guys!
They tread the line very well between getting your products in and genuinely useful content that in another time, you’d probably have had to pay for. I never feel like I’m watching an advert with these videos, always feel like I’m getting a pro’s perspective. Some good people work there quite obviously!
Great video Dudes!! And the slo-mo footage was amazing!!
Loving the bar tape on chain stay good idea!
7:39 God bless Tourney users like myself 🤣🤣🤣
I noticed Shimano Clutch ON starting at 5:14 seem to be in the Clutch OFF position that's why the chain still slacking. They must have forgotten to turn the clutch ON. 😄
You can be right. I can't really see it though. But what I notice that I can't really see the rd whipped difference between shimano cluth on and off in this video. And the chain slap seems just a bit better with clutch off. Seems weird for me. And then I notice your comment.
Great video! Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to those clutch maintenance videos.
The advent is clearly the best one. Glad i ordered mine last month for Christmas
that's a lot of work, we really appreciate it.
That looks like a lot of work in the cold! Thanks for the video.
These clutches were a great invention/addition to bikes and they make a huge difference in a good way. But they are not a perfect solution. A really strong clutch will hold your chain on better, but it will also start to affect shifting and rear suspension performance.
A lot better than nothing and I'll be running them for now, without complaint, but maybe we can come up with a better solution in the future.
Excellent video as usual guys🤗
Great video on chain slap, I often wonder how much my chain moves around, interesting and informative mechanical content
As someone who is an orchestral musician and a mountain biker, I approve of the soundtrack!
Yes! I’ve been waiting for this vid forever
The Tourney was most entertaining.
I'll never hear "Ride of the Valkyries" again without thinking, "chain slap."
Wow this footage is awesome. The Tourney was really extreme.
I have an older nine speed SRAM X0 on my 26" MTB. When going down a bumpy trail the chain does come loose somtimes, despite the front derailleur. I will probably switch to a new Deore derailleur with clutch, i saw a video that they are compatible with the SRAM 1:1 system. So i do not have to buy new triggers ;)
Super video guys! Amazing content
Thanks guys! Informative and enjoyable as always. You could have added a seized Shimano to the test as I find mine this way from time to time. You guys and others have a great videos on servicing the Shimano clutches and much thanks for these. When I grew tired of the Shimano service, I through on a SRAM rear der and shifter and it works just great. Best of all, there is no clutch service on a SRAM!
now i know what the clutch does on a bike, thanks tech guys
Efficient and Easy To Learn,
Thank you Sir for Teaching us Your Stock Knowledge!!!
GOD BLESS US ALL!!!😊🌄😇💖💯
Ah I was hoping for the Box 3! Cool video!
That was great stuff👍🏻 so cool to watch😃
I have an old 3 by 9 Shimano Deore ( having a front derailleur).... glad to have this "oldschool" stuff... so the chain is sloopy, yes.... but the front keeps it some sort of where it belongs.... ;)
this was fascinating. good work guys. sram lookin' good.
Nice to have seen Calvin at the Sea Otter Classic. The Wager music was perfect for this exposé.
Wagner was a composer of dubious ethics
Wager is a bet
Great video
These guys are elite
A cool addition (to really geek out) would be to add a vertical ruler attached to the chain stay to get an accurate comparison of max chain movements. Sure would be fun to work with you guys.
I use sram and shimano and there both great, but I prefer shimano mechs. I feel like there clutch is perfectly balanced, with plenty of resistance to stop the chain slap but not effect shifting. And great video guys as usual.
50% of our customers bringing their bike into the workshop with an opened clutch.... Thanks for this great video!
and you probably charge them and send them on their way. because bike shops are crooks.
@@jacobpoucher In Germany, we have a thing called craftsmen honor....
I first had to trainee 3.5 years, to become professional bike mechatronics engineer, before i was even allowed to repair bikes in a shop!
I didn't do that to hear such a bullshit from you!
I wish you always an annoying sound on your bike, all time flat tires and broken spokes!
@@hendriksiering9077 good luck I've been a master mechanic for over a decade. Fixing a bike is childs play.
@@hendriksiering9077 also you didn't say if you chage them or not , Do you? I bet you do.
@@jacobpoucher
So, you don´t even need to be a journeyman, to title yourself like this...
Just do a basic bike repair course and that´s it!
You can call yourself "master mechanics" as you want , but you would not get a job in Germany!
BTW: Maybe, that´s the reason why bike shops are crooks at your place?!!
I like the chain stay protection!
Inner tube zip tide on. Cheap, effective, looks "cred". Worth having tubes alone.
@@simonpowell2559 yup theres plenty of more expensive options but the inner tube zip tied on is easily the most cost effective assuming you have a popped tube laying around
Your the best.from mechanic Philippines
Nice clutch TRP
Excellent comparison. I have a Giant Talon 2 with the Advent derailleur. Although it is considered a budget derailleur it did perform well. I don't plan any upgrade until the advent wears out.
I’ve got the same bike and rode it a lot this year, over rough terrain. I had no issues with the derailleur and little chain slap. I definitely like the bike!
i like this new guy
I only ride track bikes or single speed bikes and Stiller find this vídeo amazing...
It's interesting how some derailleurs seem to have big movement in the parallelogram, i.e. they actually move down the cassette. If you were pedaling, the chain would probably go down a gear or two then back up.
Bit of a misnomer to call them clutches; they are in fact rotational dampers which you can turn on or off.
Good point. "Clutch" is the accepted industry name, but rotational damper is a better turn. So do not turn off.
On my trek fx which is a 1x8 I have a Shimano acrea but I also use the front derailleur as a chain guide
So cool 😎
The Tourney RD, lol ! It's all over the place
Modern derailleurs with straight parallelograms are the best like SRAM's X-Horizon RDs
From all those clips it looks like Sram is the winner of the chain control game!
Sram looks to have the best clutch and nice they have a lock on the cage for ease of wheel removal and cleaning and chain routing
I knew Tourney was bad I didn’t know THAT bad
you could say, at least, it´s looking like a derailleur! xD
It is not a "bad" derailleur. We picked that design to show maximum slap for comparison. It has its place.
@@parktool that derailleur can compete in slap boxing
@@dystopiaisutopia they didn´t test mountain bikes... they showed us derailleurs of all kinds on ONE bike ; )
@@dystopiaisutopia If i ride a cobblestone pave with my road bike, i wished, my Campagnolo EPS 12s had a clutch,too....Trust me! xD
I get that on my 1x9 sora bike… i put a chain tensioner under the chain stay which improved thing but a 9s clutched system would be better…
Very nice work. It appears the worst performers had the least tension and allowed the chain to be maximally compliant with the rate of descent (the step frequency), and allowed resonance. The chain rising and falling distance could grow as each step passed. Better performing setups had the chain rising and falling at a frequency that wasn't near the frequency of steps, so it was difficult to build resonance. Perhaps a better shakedown would be to experiment with various descent rates to try to get something that maximizes undulation with each setup? Not that the clutching mechanisms don't help. They essentially make the chain rising rate different that the falling rate. Whatever the resonanant frequencies are of each, they can't be near each other. A bump frequency that matches chain falling resonance won't match chain rising resonance, and vise versa, so it's difficult to build destructive resonance as in the worst performing setups.
I like this video 👍
Between box 2 and Sram type 2, they both performed very well
In my opinion, SRAM is better. I've been running box two for over a year now and I don't like it very much. 9 speeds is great but that's it.
@@thebikehippie6562 go get you a box two 11sp
@@moonmuscle3332 Not a chance. Shimano or nothing 👍
Hello Bonjour , Nice vidéo Thank you 💫👍✌😊
I was contemplating swapping my shimano drivetrain for box...think this video sold it for me! To get even more nerdy, would be interesting to measure actual retention force values of each clutch/brand.
Believe in the Prime nine! Box truly is amazing, the engineers work very hard to design it to the best standard possible. It's absolutely bulletproof, and can take a hell of a beating. Box two is a great deal, as well as everything else they make
@@fullerblacksmithing7954 for sure! Yea was debating between One & Two. Looks like the biggest difference is weight (~280g in the Cassette), along with an adjustable clutch & unibody cassette design. I'm not a big weight weenie, but wondering if performance upgrades would be worth the pretty steep cost difference. Have you had experience with either?
Style Points for the Gold Chain!
you should try this in mid-gears, so the leverage is higher to pull back the cage...
That´s not true... The lowest gear is the one wich the cage has the most work to do. ; )
@@hendriksiering9077 i my simple kinematics understanding not. when we neglect the influences of the weight of the cage itself and just focus on the forces induced by the chain, a completely folded cage experiences less forces in the directions it can move.
its similar to the concept of the upper and lower dead points in a combustion engine; piston - connecting rod
@@HannyDart More chain to hold for the cage, is similar to more weight, unnecessary of this, the cages lever is always the same ; ) If you switch into higher gears, the clutch/cage is on more tension, so the most problematic gears are the smallest!
@@hendriksiering9077 the chain (just like ropes in highschool mechanics) can only assert force in the chain direction. when landing after the step the ~horizontal chain doesnt pull vertically on the pulley (like you would expect, if the chain was a solid stick for example). it instead starts pulling horizontally (or tangent to the chain at the moment of impact)
and this horizontal lever is really really small when riding in highest gear and when the chain is as long as it was in the video.
@@HannyDart it´s the chains weight, which let slap it down.
That´s where the vertical force is coming from (inertia). the clutch spring keeps the chain on tension horizontally again. So, the shorter the chain on the lower side of the drive train, the lower the inertia of the chain, which does mean, the lever has less forces to deal with.
So you can say, the leverage of the derailleurs cage gets equalized in comparison to the gears you use.
Good grief that was one trippy video! Just what did they put in the Park Tool Christmas cake?
So I’ve got a sram Eagle xo1, when I jump and when I go thru some big rock gardens the unit slaps and feels really loose, unlike before. It shifts perfect and functions well except for the recoil and jarring upon take off from a jump and in those chunk sections of trail. Is this fixable or do I need a whole new derailleur?? Thanks!!!
Unfortunately the clutch on SRAM derailleurs is non serviceable.
That was really good footage of a lot of different mechs. I’d definitely be happy with the SRAM mechs on my bike. My favourite though had to be the Tourney as it made me burst out laughing. Canal paths only people!
Very cool video. I noticed all the tests were done with the bike in a high gear. It would be cool to see a repeat of these tests with the bike in a low gear (maybe 3rd gear) as the derailleur is positioned very differently. Nevertheless the video was very good!
Larry
Problem with that is all of these derailleurs are different speeds. Like the tourney being a 7 speed and only able to clear a 32 high gear.
Good day i just want to know if the spring on the rd can be replaced/changed?
Although typically can get at the spring to remove it, there are not spare springs available.
I run a Box 4 and have very little chain slap.
Are there any disadvantages of running the clutch? Should you always have it on, even if not necessary? Can you adjust the amount a clutch resistance? Some thoughts for a future video maybe
Leaving your clutch on will cause your shifting not be as smooth as with your clutch on
Wouldn't a stronger clutch effect rear suspension especially on long travel high pivot bikes because the lower bit of chain grows so much?
Good question. It makes sense that there would be an effect, but how much? Would it change handling? Would you notice? Guess there is only one way to find out!
I believe GMBN did a video about the effect clutches have on suspension, but I could be wrong. Interesting stuff
my bike has a clutch but the chainslap noise is coming from my front chainring when the chain is bouncing about?
If I may ask dear sirs do you know the ltwoo?
you much have you dialed in the hex srew on the shimano clutch ? M9100 derailleur is rock solid!
Shimano gives a spec for the cage resistance that can be measured. This Shimano clutch model was adjusted to the factory torque spec for this test.
Look at those shifters….Schwinn baby
I'm more interested in the ease of shifting to a larger cog w/ large MtB cog gaps. I run my clutched derailleurs in the off position because it seems easier when using friction shifters. Am I imagining this?
You're not just imagining this. To shift to a bigger cog the derailleur has to rotate forward to allow for the extra chain needed for the bigger cog. You can feel a noticeable difference if you increase the clutch tension too. Too much clutch tension can also make upward shifts not work as reliably in my experience for this same reason.
The ease of shifting would be almost directly proportional to the clutch tension I would think (unless there's a rotary damper in there too, which I think most if not all don't have), so the derailleur which causes the most chain slap would be the easiest to shift
TRP looked like it controlled slap the best
Trp looked like it did the best
Good day, any idea what cause and fix for my problem, I'm using 3x9 11-32T with altus m2000 groupset without any problem, then I replace my cogs with an 11-42T and used a short goatlink/dropout ext, I noticed that when I stop pedaling the chain slaps my chain stay, same thing happens when I back pedal abruptly the chain slaps my chain stay, only part changed was my cogs, btw my new cogs is a sword brand 11-42T, would really appreciate if you could throw some advice or insight on this, thanks...
There is drag in the rear freehub mechanism. Check that the lockring is not rubbing on the frame and that nothing like a spoke protector or debris is causing bind behind the cassette near the spokes.
@@parktool thanks for taking time to reply, upon inspection, everything seems ok, but I will try to put a spacer on the cogs, I noticed that that the new cogs is somehow narrower than the 11-32t that is installed before... thanks and more power to your channel
Our family has been running Shimano shadow plus for years and never have issues with it!
Are you supposed to shift trogh the hole cassette with the clutch on without it breaking??
Yes, the clutches "slip" and allow for shifting.
SRAM for the win
I'm still using old 9 speed 😂
Please calvin make a video of SLIDING DROPOUTS !!!
I'll wait till tourneys get the clutch!
rusted tourney would work good, it seams , it need just increase drag/resistance in spring bearing by use sticky grease or more tight bearing, using plastic bushing inside of bearing
I'm new in the bicycle world. As I understand, this clutch prevents the chain from falling off. So whats the advantage of setting it ON or OFF, wouldnt be better if just is set allways in the ON positon? In what cases is convenient ride with the clutch OFF? . (Not native speaker, hope its still understable) greetings.
You set the clutch ON while you ride and only set to OFF if you need to remove the rear wheel ; )
Great question. Some people who do not ride over any bumps would benefit from the clutch OFF because it improves shifting performance. Also it’s easier to take the wheel off.
thats why I ride single speed on any terrain with a decent pawl hub. Nobody need over 8 gears unless you're a pensioner. Im 56 so Im getting there!
sram nx looked great imo
Tourney
To stop the chain falling off the chain ring get a bike chain guide and a chain tensioner with roller Will stop it flapping about 👍🚲💨
Yes that´s what was state of the art in the 90´s!!
Today we have better working derailleurs, these are lighter, more silent and in combination with narrow wide chain rings way better, than the old system! ; )
@@hendriksiering9077 Shows you how long I haven’t rode a mountain bike for l ride BMX 👍🚲💨
This was interesting, I always wondered how and why the clutch came into the cycling world
Why is there still so much "small" chainslap on the shimano derraileurs even when the clutch is turned on?
is there a chain guide for my 3 by 7 setup? thanks
Not for 3x7. If you were a 1x7 then yes.
@@parktool ok thanks
Very surprised by the Microshift and Box performance. Might need to try out an Advent X at some point in time.
But remember, this was not a test of the "best shifting" models. It shows only one aspect.
@@parktool I’d think those lower budget derailleurs would have more chain slap than the big 2, all I’m saying. I’d definitely be interested in seeing the overall performance of a box or Microshift groupo on a mountain bike
I have Advent on 2 bikes. A 2x setup with the RD-M619L long cage derailleur and the FD-T492 front trekking derailleur. I have a 1x Advent setup with the RD-M6195L long cage clutched derailleur. Both bikes have the 11-42 Advent cassette. Both of these are rigid steel adventure bikes. The shifting is crisp on both bikes and on rough terrain, drivetrain noise is minimal. I'm really happy with their products. Bike mechanics that I know also like the new MicroSHIFT Advent and AdventX stuff.
I have the shimano Acera(one step above the tourney) it also doesn’t have a clutch and oh my goodness I can’t wait till I get the money to upgrade it to a bigger cassette and new clutch derailleur!
I have a trail bike that has the shimano deore with a clutch and it’s so much better than the acera, very little slap unless I’m hitting big jumps hard or something.
I get this when I slightly back pedal just as I begin to coast in the highest gears (smallest cogs in the back) extremely enjoying! Plus is damaging my frame. Anyone else experiencing this?
There are a few things that can lead to this. Specifically a sluggish freehub body or freewheel, a weak spring in the derailleur or in some cases debris stuck behind the cassette or freewheel.
Clutches have been a great addition to MTB, but they do affect your suspension. Great Video as per usual. Thanks
It'd be interesting to do a long term test too to see how much the extra tightness affects chain and cog wear over time.
You always produce more tightness on the drive trains upper side, while pushing watts on your pedals, than on the lower side... the clutch has no impact on the wear over time! ; )
@@hendriksiering9077 that makes sense.
Good morning~ Guys Good~ Test~
Question, do the clutched derailleurs only have an off position so that you can get the rear wheel off?
The box 2 seems to be stiffer than the box 1
Box seem to perform the best ,
would be interesting to do a long term test too to see how much the extra tightness affects chain and cog wear over time.