How Do I Witness to a Campbellite?
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- čas přidán 7. 11. 2017
- A short report on an interaction I had with someone still inside the Church of Christ. If you need an example on how you might approach someone of this persuasion, I hope this will be beneficial to you. If you have any questions regarding any issue involving the Restoration Movement and how to interact with and evangelize its followers, please email me at paul1t2day@gmail.com. Blessings!
A Campbellite once told me that my Baptist pastor was not a real pastor because he had not been baptized by a church of Christ minister, and anyone my pastor baptized was going to Hell because they were baptized by a Baptist pastor. When I showed him, from his group's own history, that their founders, Barton Stone and Thomas & Alexander Campbell were all baptized by Baptist pastors, which would made their whole movement illegitimate and all their people, by that reasoning, were going to Hell, he refused to speak with me further.
You are quite correct, and they also refused to be rebaptized when they “restored the ancient gospel.”
Following the chain, whole lines in the history of their converts would be lost by their own standards, but sadly they so often refuse to even consider their own history.
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@@lindahutchens8612 Belief is the Bible is a creed. So don't say you have no creeds. And perhaps you're not aware of the multiple church of Christ ministers who have told me over the years that I wasn't properly baptized because it was not by one of theirs.
When the Apostle Paul gave the formula for Salvation in Romans 10:9 (and elsewhere), did he pass up a marvelous opportunity to include Baptism? Why didn't he? Did he forget? No, he didn't because baptism is not part of the Salvation process, and never was until the Catholic church evolved it into it. Works such as baptism will not save you. Or did you take Titus 3:5 out of your Bible.
Dave Mitchell is correct. You would to well to listen to him rather than those in you religion who have obviously strayed from the truth.
@@lindahutchens8612 I am not Baptist and obviously he isn't either, but your remarks show a hatred of Baptist in particular, and that is sad. If you don't understand what I was talking about, you are obviously clueless and I cannot help you. It would be a waste of your time and mine to discuss this further until you gain understanding.
@@lindahutchens8612 He probably had more important things to do than argue with unteachable people on social media.
I'm so glad you have this video posted, it provides a comfort; it's not easy to leave the dear little cofcd; and God loves them so much. Regarding "the only church saved" there's this ugliness that still exists in some of the churches (perhaps some not) and it is very divisive.
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Please check out my channel where I have several more resources dealing with issues revolving around the CoC.
You're very correct, someone else said that the church of Christ has majored in minor issues
I grew up in the C of C. My parents studied with a local pastor, and while my mom did accept Christ and was baptized into the church, my dad remained a non-believer until later in life. My mom took me to church and we went faithfully until I was about 10 years old. My parents new business and the stress I guess of not attending together wore my mom down and we stopped going. Meanwhile, there was a strong Baptist church in town with lots of great children’s and youth ministries. Most of my friends went there and I begged my mom if I could go…she eventually said yes after several men from the church that my parents respected, came by to visit our home. The church was just down the street, so I walked or rode my bike. It was here that I learned about what it meant to come to faith in Christ, and how the doctrine of works was unbiblical. I remember going to a Baptist youth camp and giving my heart to Jesus. I called home on an old pay phone and when I told my mom about what I had done and that I would be baptized next Sunday, she rebuked me and cried. “You know all the Baptists are going to hell.” Over the next few years I went to college, got involved with a Baptist campus ministry, met my lovely wife, got married, and returned to my hometown to teach school. My mom never stopped trying to get me back in the church. Shortly after my baptism, she made me go to classes with the C of C pastor where he specifically ran down everything that was “wrong” with Baptists. Obviously it had no effect. Fast forward to today. I have some serious problems with Evangelical churches and what I see going on and being taught in many of them. Recently…a long story proceeds this…reached out to our local Orthodox priest here in California. It was like an entire new universe opened up to me and I am seeing the TRUE first century church in action, still alive on the Earth…and it is 180 degrees from the C of C. After Orthodox Easter this year, my wife and I will enter the chaticumin class in preparation for Chrismation sometime in 2023. God is good, and He is the same today as He was 2000 years ago when the church was founded. The C of C was right about one thing…denominationalism is wrong, but they didn’t need to Restore anything, they just needed to come back to the one true Holy Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church.
Do you believe God is a trinity?
I want to be Orthodox too, but the Orthodox believe that the Orthodox Church is The One True Church - implication being that everyone is going to hell but the Orthodox. That is very hard to swallow.
The fact that the Baptists SCHEDULED your baptism is proof that your baptism is invalid. Baptists teach that baptism is NOT NECESSARY for salvation. If you are now a catholic, how ddo you feel about baptism of babies.
so you joined another denomination?
CoC is another denomination even though they deny that. Very deceptive. Their denominationalism is so strong almost made them cultish.
thank you
Having spent 11 years with the Tampa Bay/Bay Area church of Christ (Tampa/Seffner),it became apparent that they considered their doctrines as "solely exclusive",that in similar sectarianism as the JWs. Some even deny the literal person of the Holy Spirit such as was introduced to above mentioned c of C by the late Jim Massey,a teacher who denied biblical truth. Their main concerns were for the submissive by fear 99,than the 1 member who was being led away by Satan. The "Bring Your Neighbor (Sun)Day" invitations were absolutely disingenuous. It all comes down to dismissing God's saving grace through faith by adding a + to your salvation.
I actually attended Florida College for a time, and I can relate to your experience quite well.
Thank you for watching and leaving your comment.
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I have appreciated your insights into the Churches of Christ. I am glad you have been delivered from that form of legalism. I would encourage you and everyone to read Willam Tyndale's book "The Parable of the Wicked Mammon". He so clearly describes the gospel according to Christ and the Apostles, that if every Christian were to read his book and follow what Christ said regarding salvation, we would not have these divisions nor such false teachings. Once you read his book, you truly understand exactly what Jesus and the Apostles taught, and sadly what they taught is rarely understood today, much less taught. But it is not surprising that Satan undermines the work of God by various means of deception that appeal to men's pride.
Thank you for your encouragement and recommendation; I greatly appreciate it!
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I believe some are under the impression that members of the local congregation of those named "the church of Christ" are the only ones going to Heaven. The bible teaches that those who are saved are add to the church by God. Campbell and others have attempted to "restore" the doctrines of the church found in the pages of the New Testament books, including how one becomes a member. When local church ministers teach of "church of Christ", members of the local churches may mistake this as meaning the local churches while he might mean the church to which God adds the saved to.
What a gentle soul you are ..no doubt by God working on your heart over the years.
One thing obvious in the comments is the Cambellites have multiple ways of salvation. Was Abraham baptized, or David? "But that was Old Testament" is the line repeated. You touched on it in your video. God has always saved sinners through faith. He did in Abrahams day, Habakkuk's day, He did in the 1st century and He does now. The "requirements" didnt change, because no man can meet Gods righteous requirements.
Thank you for your comments and your encouragement; it is much appreciated.
This point is a weakness in their theology especially as many point to John 3 as referring to baptism, yet Jesus said that no one gets in without out and OT in baptized saints are also in the kingdom.
These interpretative details go away when one realizes that salvation has always been the same across the whole Bible, but their interpretation of Acts 2:38 colors their entire worldview.
@@ReformedOudeis strange they would misunderstand John 3. Nicodemus spent his entire life trying to work his way in and he wasn't confused. What did anyone "do" to be born? Nothing! It's something that happens to each of us. Being "born again" isn't something we do, it's something that happens to us. Not sure how they miss this.
Remember only 8 were saved in Noah's day? How sad it was for him to lose his entire extended family. The truth hurts, yet it is still the truth.
One place, you can find them, is in a baptist history book by Robert Semple (Rise and Progress of the baptist in Virginia). In which it documents debates between protestant and baptist, anti-baptist and church of Christ, before Campbell was through of.
Thank you Paul - it is so refreshing to hear the gospel, the true good news of Christ!
Old Covenant Baptism vs. New Covenant Baptism (water vs. Spirit)
Water baptism was a part of the Old Covenant system of ritual washing. The Old Covenant priests had to wash before beginning their service in the temple. (Ex. 30:17-30) When Christ was water baptized by His cousin John in the Jordan River, He was under the Old Covenant system. He also only ate certain foods, and wore certain clothes, as prescribed by the 613 Old Covenant laws. Christ was water baptized by John and then received the Holy Spirit from heaven. The order is reversed in the New Covenant. A person receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion, and then believers often declare their conversion to their friends and family through a water baptism ceremony. Which baptism makes you a member of Christ’s Church?
The New Covenant conversion process is described below. (Born-again)
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(A person must “hear” the Gospel, and “believe” the Gospel, and will then be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.)
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(See Jer. 31:34 for the New Covenant promise, and 1 John 2:27 for the fulfillment)
============
Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says?
What did Peter say below?
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text.
Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (See 1 Cor. 12:13)
“baptize” KJV
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Water or Holy Spirit?, See Eph. 1-13.)
Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (See Eph. 4:1-5)
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. (Old Covenant ----> New Covenant)
How many people have been saved by the Old Covenant water baptism of John the Baptist?
Who did John the Baptist say is the greatest Baptist that ever lived in Luke 3:16? What kind of New Covenant baptism comes from Christ?
Hebrews 9:10 Old Covenant vs. New Covenant
(CSB) They are physical regulations and only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of the new order.
(ESV) but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(ESV+) but deal only with R5food and drink and R6various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
(Geneva) Which only stood in meates and drinkes, and diuers washings, and carnal rites, which were inioyned, vntill the time of reformation.
(GW) These gifts and sacrifices were meant to be food, drink, and items used in various purification ceremonies. These ceremonies were required for the body until God would establish a new way of doing things.
(KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(KJV+) Which stood onlyG3440 inG1909 meatsG1033 andG2532 drinks,G4188 andG2532 diversG1313 washings,G909 andG2532 carnalG4561 ordinances,G1345 imposedG1945 on them untilG3360 the timeG2540 of reformation.G1357
(NKJV) concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
(NLT) For that old system deals only with food and drink and various cleansing ceremonies-physical regulations that were in effect only until a better system could be established.
(YLT) only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances-till the time of reformation imposed upon them .
The greatest irony of the church of Christ to me is that the members know about the satanic things their elders and ministers are doing and yet overlook and discount it because they strongly believe that it is wrong to question the authority of the elders and because they believe that the rules surrounding wor ship and baptism are far more important than anything else. Through 31 years in five congregations I watched a minister proposition men in the congregation for sex, elders cover-up a man in the congregation groping a teenage girl at the church building week after week (I called CPS and made the elders very angry at me), I watched elders lie to the congregation, I’ve watched elders cover-up multiple preachers having affairs with people in the church, and numerous other things. Members of the church of Christ know so little about the power and presence of the Holy Spirit that they don’t have the ability to discern when some thing that is flat out evil is going on within their church by their leader ship. In every one of these situations I would point out the problem of allowing evil to exist in our midst and do nothing about it and be told to shut up and be quiet or my job is over.
There are certainly churches of Christ that are wrong and bad. We are only men and women. We are not perfect. Hanging a sign over the door does not make them a church of christ.
Paul, as a member of a church of Christ in Texas, i have heard some say the the CoC is the one true church and that people who do not belong are damned. I
Cannot speak for all members of the churches of Christ but most of us believe these statements are
completely FALSE. People who say these things are placing themselves in Gods judgment seat and deciding who will be saved and who won’t. Any Christian who says such things should be challenged in my view and encouraged to repent. Only God has the wisdom and perspective to judge, that’s His job. Our job is to share the good news with gentleness and reverence 1Peter 3:15. These fundamentalist churches of Christ do not show the love and forbearance towards others required by scripture 1 Cor 13 for example.
Paul the experience you related in another video about your sermon was handled very badly by that congregation. You and I disagree about predestination and the five points of Calvinism, but the right way to handle those differences is to sit and have a meaningful and respectful discussion. Please don’t think these legalistic Florida college churches represent t mainstream churches of Christ, they do not. My prayer for them is that they will be shown their legalism and repent and my prayer for you and others harmed by these churches is that you will forgive them.
The central tenant of the Christian is that Jesus lived a perfect life, was the perfect atoning sacrifice for our sins, willing and in obedience to the Father died for us and was raised on the third day. He now reigns in heaven with the Father and He sent His Spirit to help us in our spiritual journey in this life. We are NOT called to decide who spends eternity with God and who is separated from Him eternally. In fact, I would argue that each of us decides for ourselves where we will spend eternity by our attitudes and behaviors.
The problem I saw with CoC is that they interpret water baptism as necesssity step to salvation. Do you considered that a false doctrine or just different interpretation or practice? Galatians, Colossians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Ephesians, Acts, Titus all talked about false doctrines, false teaching, false teachers. Romans 11:6 warned against adding any human religious work to God's grace. I think an error to the doctrine of salvation is very concerning.
Well stated tim. Enjoyed your piece!
I now understand why the church of christ judged other churches that differs from there teachings. Because the church has no doctrinal classification unlike the baptist and other evangelical churches. The church do not believe to the creed formulated by church fathers that are considered by the evanglical churches as the main doctrines to salvation, while the rest of the teachings are considered secondary doctrines and the interpretations on these may differ from churchs to churches due to maybe cultural differences but the churches should still be united as brothers in the Lord.
Denominations are lost simply because they are trying to keep the old law. Apostle Paul said we cannot keep the old laws or it's ways and be saved. (Gal 2:21) The coc (the new testament church) is the only one who is following the new testament. It's that simple brother. If you want to know more let me know. In my prayers.
The denominations are trying to keep the old law? With respect there is not truth to that allegation at all.
Aside from cultic groups, churches outside the CoC aren’t demanding people become and behave like Jews.
Thank you for responding.@@ReformedOudeis If you ask any person of a denomination what law are we under today they usually say the 10 Commandments. Our coc congregation used to go door-to-door and that was the first question we asked and they always said the 10 Commandments. This is what they are taught and it is what they believe. This is also the reason they give for faith-only doctrine and using musical instruments in worship. They always use Abraham re their faith only and king David for music instruments both found in the Old Testament. They also use the Levitical priesthood for wearing robes. And they still tithe though it was only given to the Jews and not Christians. We Christians are commanded to give as we prosper and not tithe. (1 Cor. 16:2) Though they do not know they are following Judaism, they are. Please do more research and you will see.
Actually the position you are advocating for here was given to you directly by Alexander Campbell in his infamous “Sermon on the Law.”
It is a gross error to claim that the Law of God has no place in the life of the believer, a position that the New Testament flatly denies.
On the other hand it is an even graver error to claim that the believer is saved by keeping another law altogether. Such a position denies the need for grace and the sufficiency of the atonement and of Christ.
One cannot mix grace with works and still call it grace.
@@ReformedOudeisyou are as intellectually dishonest as the people who claim those of us who learned koine Greek simple believe what we are “told” and not what we read. It is absolutely absurd for you to claim that anything a member of the Lord’s Church says is from anywhere other than the Bible. I have my bachelor’s degree in ministry from a church of Christ University (Harding University). We didn’t study Alexander and Thomas Campbell’s sermons. We studied the 66 books of the Bible, apologetics, eschatology, church, history, hermeneutics, exegesis, koine Greek, etc. What was I taught about the Campbells? The father and son independently of each other decided to leave the presbyterian denomination and become a Christian only. When I was already in the United States, the other one came from Europe. They preached the people should give up their man-made rules and creeds and return to the Bible only. Over the sermons? I have no idea never read any of them. In fact, one or both of them fell away, I don’t remember which one and they help denomination. So I don’t get any teaching from them. They’re teaching comes purely from the Bible. You simply don’t know what you’re arguing about. I studied through 4 terms of koine Greek to translate the New Testament… not learn from somebody sermons. By the way, there are church of Christ congregations in both the Americas and Europe years before the Campbell’s came on the scene, and in some cases before they were even born. Some of them are still standing to this very day with historical markers. The church of Christ has existed since the day of Pentecost circa 33 AD. We are Jesus only church. If you claim to be a Christian then why don’t you claim you too are of his one church that He founded on this day?
@@ReformedOudeis9 of the 10 commandments are restated in the NT. That's because they are moral laws. Christians are not obligated to keep the Sabbath as many denominations half way do. They are also not required to make animal sacrifices, tithe, or isolate after touching a dead animal. These things are easy to understand when we approach the Bible with an open heart and mind.
I am a member of the church of Christ/church of God/Lord's church. The name "church of Christ" simply denotes ownership of a called out group of like minded people, and is one of many found in the NT. First century Christians would have had no concept of denominations. They were simply members of Jesus' church. If you ask most members they will tell you they had no idea who Alexander Campbell was until a denominational member accused them of following him. I have never read or studied any teachings of Campbell. Campbell vehemently denied founding any church. It's a silly accusation. Even a slight effort will find churches of Christ well before Alexander Campbell. It shows a great lack of intellectual honesty to resort to name calling and wilfull misrepresentation. It is very difficult for a denominational Christian to see Christianity outside the distorted lense of denominationalism.
We're not asking anyone to leave their denomination for our's. We're saying leave denominationalism all together and be added to the church that was established in Acts chapter 2. I along with any faithful members of the church of Christ will gladly give up anything we believe or practice that doesn't have its origin in the Bible.
I just came across your video, I think it is very well done and spot on. I grew up in a more progressive branch of the church of Christ and served as a minister for 31 years in five different congregations. Currently the branch of churches of Christ I have been serving in don’t believe everybody is going to hell, don’t believe instrumental music is wrong, don’t believe women are not allowed to do anything and yet much of what you talk about about the problems with the church of Christ actually still exist in a different variation in the churches of Christ I have been working for. The problem the core of the theology of churches of Christ is the belief that we can save ourselves instead of Jesus Christ saving us. It is at its core humanism. We believe that when we say it I have to do this and this and this to be saved. We are not saved by what we do, we are saved by entry into the forgiveness offered by Jesus Christ. The method of injury is not what is important, just simply the fact that we have reached our hands up to God and accepted him as our savior instead of our self as our savior. After 31 years of full-time ministry in churches of Christ I finally found it untenable It has shifted into a different employment and away from participation with any restoration movement church. The problem in the progressive churches of Christ is that the idea that people are smarter than God and are in charge of making sure salvation occurs has found its way into elder ships. Every church of Christ I worked for had an elder shipped that was made up of between eight and 16 people. They believed that it was their duty to completely be in charge of and run the church. The result being that they tend to squeeze God out of the equation and put them self in the place of God. They would also create a new set of rules that had to be followed or you were not acceptable, typically these rules were put in place by a group of widows that had a lot of money to give! Over the years I watched time and again as Church of Christ older ships would seek power above God and consequently would do many things that were just repulsive. They would cover up adulterous affairs by leader ship, they would treat ministerial staff‘s like trash, they would emotionally abuse anyone who questioned their authority. What I have finally concluded is that churches of Christ just have bad DNA, whenever you decide that you’re smarter than God and in fact you are a God because you can save yourself by what you do it gives Satan tons of room to jump in and work within the walls of that organization.
It should say the method of entry…
Thank you for sharing your story and your encouragement!
I hope you find the rest of my material on my channel to be helpful for any questions or insights into the Church of Christ that you have.
We need to be actively engaged in winning them to the rest and peace that only Christ can give and to the righteousness that only He can grant.
Only the Holy Spirit can lead them to truth. Praying for the day of revival to churches of Christ.
@@lindahutchens8612 Your response to my comments is actually proving the point of the maker of this video… when you say you’re saved by Jesus but then turn around and say as long as you do this list of things such as being water baptized and making sure that you follow the correct rules in worship on Sunday morning you’ve actually removed salvation from Jesus hands and put it back in your hands. You were not saved because you follow the Bible correctly. In fact I would dare say the Bible itself has become an idol for many people in churches of Christ. The Bible itself and the rules that people attempt to find within its pages become a God in and of itself so that we’re worshiping the Bible instead of God. The purpose of the Bible is to point us toward God. It is a collection of peoples encounters with The living God over at least a 3500 year period. One of the underlying themes in the Bible is it people become obsessed with being religious and making religious rules and thinking they have found religious rules within the pages of the text and completely lose the love of God. What do you think Jesus was wrestling with? he was encountering the most religious people in the world who thought that following the rules was what made God happy. Reading the Bible as a pattern book of how to do things completely misses what the Bible is about. The Bible is the story of God interacting with his people generation by generation working to take care of them and protect them and draw them to him. His concern is not about making sure we follow the rules. His concern is in fact making sure that we love him. The Church of Christ DNA is focused upon making sure that people follow rules, not making sure that we love God. The typical Church of Christ person will say that following God‘s rules is how we love him. The Pharisees said the same thing and they were hateful people. Legalistically following a set of rules hardens your heart and prevents you from seeing God. Instead what happens is that you convince yourself that the only true followers of God are the ones that obey his rules, The problem being that the intent of the Bible was not for those rules to become the core of what following God was all about. What saves you? The grace of God offered through the blood of Jesus Christ received through faith and expressed through baptism. Does water baptism save you? No. It is an external expression of the love and faith within your heart. It is no different than wedding ceremony and a wedding ring. You’re not married to somebody because you went through a wedding ceremony. You’re married to somebody because you committed your heart to their heart. The wedding ceremony is simply a public expression of what’s going on in your heart. Immersion baptism is an external expression of what is going on within your heart. To make water baptism a rule that determines whether or not you are saved is no different than making sex rule that proves you’re married. Treating sex that way cheapens it. Treating baptism that way cheapens it also. Church of Christ DNA is so ingrained that it would rather pick a fight about following the rules correctly than entertain the possibility maybe it does not have everything correct. The restoration movement began when people became tired of their slice of Christianity requiring that everybody think the exact same way. The restoration movement was a freedom movement focused upon simply allowing God to be in charge and not trying to decide who was right and who was wrong. The church of Christ has come full circle and is surprisingly identical to the groups that the original founders of the church of Christ sought to be free of.
“Baptism does also now save us.”
You affirm this is “Christian Baptism,” baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ for (in order to obtain) the remission of sins.”
Peter includes himself in this “us.”
When did Peter receive “Christian Baptism?”
Further Peter asserts that “baptism is (present tense-ongoing aspect) saving us,” that is himself and his audience.
If baptism is “in order to obtain the remission of sins,” how is baptism present tense, at this moment saving you?
Calling people Campbellites is insulting, a lie and is purposely insulting,... It really exposes your heart!
That’s e we hat they are
You should talk with Johnny and Caleb Robertson.
They have made it clear in no uncertain terms that they have zero interest in any interaction or encounter of any form with me.
@@ReformedOudeis You should talk to Aaron Gallagher... I'd be interested in watching ..
@@jeremysmith5363 I highly doubt either he or anyone else in GBN is interested in anything I have to say being a former member of the CoC.
Is it too late to talk, my grandmother died in the coc beliefs
Thanks for your comments. I am truly sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother.
These situations can be quite complex as many in the CoC are in it just because they want to make sure they are doing what God requires and feel bound by their conscience to stay in.
Did she ever talk about how she knew she would be saved? Did she talk about and point to Jesus as the only reason she would be saved, or did she point to what she did?
@@ReformedOudeis I read the Bible with her, and the Zeel of the lord was there, but she believed that one had to be baptized to be truly saved. I talked through scripture till I was blue in the face, but this was to no effect, I believe she was in Christ. My family is all coc, I was an unbeliever until 4 years ago, thin the lord drastically changed my heart, now I see the lie of there doctrine, do you have more videos on this subject
There are several more videos on my channel that address many common issues when trying to reach the CoC. Make sure to subscribe and check out what I have. If you have any questions or would like to talk more as you view these, you are most welcome to do so.
I just seen them and I see you hold to the reformed faith as well, praise God for His providence! SDG soli Deo Gloria
Romans and Galatians were written to people that are already Christians. Also how was Paul saved?
His conversion was very special. Saul had not met Jesus before. Jesus returned from Heaven to meet Saul. Saul committed unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit according to the Law but Lord Jesus extended grace to Saul.
@@tamarin2k where in the text does it say that?
@@jacobdickens3052 Saul met Jesus started in Acts 9 and Saul's conversion were told in three separate accounts. Saul became Paul, as you read through the rest of Acts, Paul started to revelation that it's God's grace who saved him.
@@tamarin2k but what exactly point was he saved and forgiven for his sins? It was when he was baptized.
@@jacobdickens3052 At the point when he recognized it was Jesus who convicted him, begins Acts 9:4. Batpism was obedient to the Law AFTER he received God's grace.
What you are saying is true in some churches of Christ but not in all. As you know c of C's are autonomous so to put all in the same doctrinal beliefs is a mistake. I do not agree with some of the churches on some things but I do not brand all c of C,s as the same. I personally believe that we are saved by grace through faith and that all who are born again are in the Lord's church. Nothing we can do will merit our salvation. Jesus paid the price for our salvation!!! The name church of Christ is not a "proper name" but is certainly one descriptive term that can be used as well as church of God, church of the first born, etc. I believe that some doctrines are "salvistic" (necessary to salvation) others are various interpretations of scriptures established by men, ex. premillineal, amillineal, once saved always saved, etc. The new birth would certainly be salvistic in my opinion. Probably we would disagree on whether baptism is a part of the new birth. Romans 6 clearly points out that we "arise to walk in newness of life" at baptism. Baptism is no more a work of merit than belief. Being saved at the point of belief without baptism does not harmonize with Acts 22:16. Saul was a believer but was told to "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins".. Obviously he wasn't saved at belief because he still was in sin. Be glad to hear your thinking on this. We all love the Lord and are putting our trust in Him for our salvation. God bless our studies together as we are all interested in arriving at the same goal.
You forgot to quoted Galatians 3:26-27 where faith and baptism are together not separately as taught by those you joined....
The Campbellite interpretation of this set of verses is extremely flawed and is nothing more than an attempt to have a shallow and quick reply to questions that arise from thoughtful exegesis
Answering the Have You Been Baptized Into Christ Challenge
czcams.com/video/oEltWrxEP00/video.html.
THE SAND CREEK ADDRESS AND DECLARATION (1889)
Sommer pushed for a division between the Churches of Christ and the Christian Church and when it took place celebrated by saying, "The Church of Christ will be entirely separated from the Christian Church. Hallelujah!"
The date of the beginning of the actual division was Sunday, August 18, 1889. The place was Sand Creek, Illinois, where Sommer delivered what he called "An Address and Declaration, " drawing its title from the Declaration and Address of Thomas Campbell. At its close Sommer said,
"In closing up this address and declaration, we state that we are impelled from a sense of duty to say, that all such innovations and corruptions to which we have referred, that after being admonished, and having had sufficient time for reflection, if they do not turn away from such abominations, that we can not and will not regard them as brethren."
SUCCESS AND SCHISM
The division was completed by 1906 when the US Census Bureau asked David Lipscomb if the Churches of Christ should be listed separately in the Bureau's report and Lipscomb responded affirmatively.
You could start with not calling them a “Campbellite.” Historical documents prove that the church of Christ was not started by Campbell (or Stone), and that it existed in America many years before Campbell ever arrived here. It also existed in Britain for hundreds of years before Campbell was born. Prior to that, it existed in other parts of what is now Europe, and it originated in Jerusalem on Pentecost, A.D. 33. Same church, same teachings, and they were persecuted heavily throughout the centuries in Europe by both the Romanists and the Church of England. There are books (fully sourced and documented) written on that very topic. The sources being the records of their persecutors, among other sources. There is even a book from 1600’s Virginia, written by a Baptist, that mentions the church of Christ, as the baptists at that time were losing members to those who were being shown the truth about the error their denominational preachers had taught them. But even if none of that existed, the church of Christ can be known by how it measures up to scripture, and it can be found anywhere at any time when honest truth seekers study the scriptures and obey the pattern of Christ and His apostles. No denomination can reproduce without their manuals, catechisms, statements of faith, confessions, etc. But the church belonging to Christ only needs the Bible to reproduce itself because “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). If they “abide in the doctrine of Christ” (2 John 9), then you know they have God and are His church. I know of a congregation of the Baptist church in Tennessee that started studying the origins of denominations and their teachings. That led them to start questioning the things they had been taught when they compared them with the scriptures. They developed new beliefs based on their careful study of the scriptures, but didn't really know if there were any other groups who believed the same way until their preacher came into contact with members of the church of Christ, and realized that their beliefs now aligned with the body of believers that you mistakenly call “Campbellites.” The members of that church were then baptized into Christ according to the Bible. The Lord added them to His church (nobody voted on their membership, like their denomination had done), and the sign in front of that church now says “church of Christ”…and they are “of Christ” because they now “abide in the doctrine of Christ” and Christ only, according to His word, by which we will all be judged (John 12:48).
There has been no successful defense of the historical claims offered by the Churches of Christ in their attempts to prove an antiquity prior to the time of the Restoration Movement.
Citing road signs, tomb stones, and wine bottles do not prove that a church nor Christ predated the 1800’s displaying all the “marks of the New Testament church.”
i might point out that the church did not grow out of the new testament.. because the new testament cannon wasn't decided by the church fathers til about 350 ad. the early church used the Septuagint.. which is the old testament.. and it was established by Jesus Christ himself when he ordained his apostles.. but it grew from the day of Pentecost and was spread around the known world by them...those apostles in turn ordained successors who were the bishops of the Orthodox church.. that church continues down to this day...Greek Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Ethiopean Orthodox.. were established by apostolic authority.. and follow apostolic tradition.. it is dangerous to consider that every word Jesus preached is in the new testament the new testament itself in John 21:25 brings out this point....that says the new testament is only the highlights of Christ's ministry....when i hear a church of Christ member say well we don't go by the old testament.. i want to ask well Jesus and his apostles preached from the old testament. not the new because it did not exist then.. so are you more holy then Jesus himself and his apostles ? are you throwing the first 350 years of Jesus' tradition which he passed on to his apostles which they passed on to their successors.. who they ordained ? you say you only go by the new testament.. and you teach doctrines which contradict the very master you claim you are serving.. and going over the heads of the apostles he himself ordained to spread his gospel.. and keep this in mind too inventing your own doctrines which are rank herisies...
Protestant : A hate-filled bigot who tells you that you're going to Hell if you don't belong to their church.
2023 ,July . The Churches of Christ does not please God then no Church on earth will. They are the only Church without man-made doctrines. If Jesus condemns man-made doctrines then what the churches of Christ are saying is true if He didn't the they are false. If you don't believe the truth then 2 Thes 2:11 & 12. Put away hatred and look for the true Church. Note One thing you have lost and continue to loose and not you alone but the world is you do not know when Christianity started. God in the old never accepted anything and not today.
Hi Mr. Day! My name is Lee. I’ve commented on a couple of your videos. We actually have a bit it common. I was raised in the coc and still attend faithfully. My wife is Anglican (long story). I totally agree that the coc has a reputation for being insensitive. Some of it is deserved. My grandparents believed that you could only go to heaven if you attended a coc. My wife will never come back because of something someone said to her in this vain, so apparently it is still a problem. That being said, most of the brothers I know don’t do this and are actually performing damage control for the ones that do. I also believe the coc is wrong on Dan 7 and Rev 13. Dead wrong. That being said, I have remained faithful to this “sect” because I am firmly convinced they have the ancient gospel down . I know you disagree with the coc take on baptism now. That is most unfortunate. I know you were not treated very well and that is also not good. In the end man I pray that all who follow Jesus will be okay. I so hope that is the case. Most of my family consists of unbaptized believers. Peace!
CoC is the only denomination that doesn't have the gospel down. CoC tells you that they do believe in saved by grace through but also need water baptism. They don't understand what grace is. They don't understand the faith regarding salvation requires no work. They hold the same salvation doctrine as Catholics.
@@tamarin2k Hey there Chrystal, I do appreciate your reply and you are right in that coc and Catholic baptism have a common stance in that it is required. Very true. That being said, when one studies the history of the Catholic Church she can find the reason infant “baptism” evolved out of the primitive doctrine of believer immersion. Catholic baptism is a privation of what was originally good and intended. I’d be very interested in discussing this with you further. I would like to hear your arguments for “faith alone.” I don’t like that phrase because like you I do prescribe to faith alone. However our definitions of faith might differ. Thanks!
@@tamarin2k Crystal my first line of argument is derived via Matthew and Mark. In Matt 28, Jesus says that all who believe and are immersed are saved. He makes the same statement in Mark. He also says this to Nicodemus when he uses the terms “water and the Spirit.” The issue here is the word “and.” It’s a conjunction which connects two subjects of equal importance. If Bob and Sue go up the hill, who goes up the hill? Do you see my take? Faith and grace of Christians is linked to the commands of the Lord. If I’m drowning and I trust that the grace of the Coast Guard will save me but I don’t grab the lifeline, I’m dead.
@@regularguy3202 Please note that in Mark and Matthew, Jesus taught the Kingdom of Israel is at hand. Jesus taugth disciples to obey and observed all the Law. Note that you need to read the Bible with context. Whom did Jesus speak to? Did it apply to Jews who were looking for their earthly kingdom to come, their King to arrive and the Messiah per the prophecy? Did Jesus fulfilled them, if not all, which did he fulfilled and which God has paused?
@@regularguy3202 The idea of faith is mentioned in many many places in the OT. ie. Numbers 12:7, Deu 7:9, Psalm 36:5, etc. Jesus rebuked dispcles of having little faith. Romans talked about faith comes by hearing. Hearing the word of God means the foundation of faith is built upon knowledge of God. Hebrews was a book wrote the 12 tribes. Hebrews 11 says faith is the substane of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Skip to verse 39 says having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise. All their faith work are good report but none of them received the promised gift which is eternal life. Eternal life is the ultimate substance of things Christians all hoped for. Jesus' resurrection gave us evidence yet we could not see our resurrection yet. The faith alone from reformed churches implied THE salvation faith is by God's grace (alone). The word alone nullified none of others other than God the Father's plan, Son of God who sacrificed and the Holy Spirit seals every soul who believes. The salvation being offered today is none of humans' work, none of humans' idea. It's freely given to both Jews and Gentiles.
Shouldn't we point everyone to Christ?
This is exactly my point :-)
Thank you for taking time out of your day to watch some of my material and express your views.
I take the charge of being labeled a false teacher very seriously while also recognizing advocates of the Church of Christ use this appellation as a way to keep current members of their religious organization from listening to and possibly accepting conclusions outside of what they have deemed as true orthodoxy.
I have zero respect for any religious organization that in fact denigrates the work of Jesus to the point where they in fact confess that Jesus isn’t enough for them; He must be combined with our own efforts in order to be accepted by God.
The faith has always confessed that Jesus is “our wisdom, righteousness, and sanctification.” One who has truly come to believe in Jesus can confess that the only reason we are in Him is because of God.
Since your religious organization rejects both of these tenants, I am forced to conclude that the claim that you are in fact the restored New Testament church is simply false.
Since you do not point to Jesus who will in fact give one the righteousness that they need to stand before God, I cannot and will not associate with or promote any such movement.
“Preaching and teaching from anger and hate.”
So when you can’t refute those who obliterate your false gospel, you resort to slander without producing any evidence for your baseless claims.
The unbiased observer can witness that you are unable to defend both your church and doctrine.
Have a nice day :-)
I really have no interest in playing these games.
The answers to the questions that you have given that have any meaningful substance have already been answered in great detail in my vlog catalog.
If you have specific questions based on any of the material in my work, I would be glad to answer those; otherwise interacting on this level is a waste of both yours and my time.
You need to watch my material again, this time with an open mind with the possibility that you can in fact can be wrong.
I pray that God opens your heart and enlightens your mind.
Your church of Christ friend represents 10% of the churches of Christ which from the beginning have rejected the minority theological view, a ‘perfectionism” doctrine that can only lead to damnation. I suggest you not begin your discussion by insulting the source of their beliefs by labeling them ‘Campellites”.
I completely disagree. The theology expressed by the writer of this email certainly is the majority report among conservative, non-institutional Churches of Christ.
It is true that more liberal Churches of Christ do not promote this hard line of theology, but they are called liberal for a reason and do not represent historic Churches of Christ; they are very much new kids on the block seeking to reinvent their churches into something more palatable to their own tastes.
As for using the term Campbellite, it is no insult, just simply being honest and using equal scales. The CoC has no problem labeling people as Calvinists, etc., all of whom are people seeking the truth and are trusting in Jesus for salvation.
If your group can apply labels to people that denote their particular viewpoint, so can I. By the way, the CoC uses these terms very much in a derogatory way. I do not and will not.
Never mind that half of the members (women) are nothing in the church. I’ve lived it. Kind of a big deal. Gal 3:28. I would not set foot in a C o C even for my fathers funeral. No thanks.
Same experience here. They went around in the group allow men to pray and even dare to ask my nonbeliever guy friend to pray. All the women were never allowed to pray in a group setting. Then when you go to women's group and heard that same one or two women say a prayer. Say a pray isn't the same thing as praying. coc don't see themselves in the mirror. Very sad.
I have never heard a single member of the church talk of "earning
god's grace!" Since we rae criticising folks you might be taken more seriously if you removed the stuffed animals from the background - just trying to help.
This comment unfortunately is yet another example of when Campbellites having nothing of substance in response to their critics, they resort to personal attacks and ridicule in a desperate attempt to have some sort of response.
This attitude and pattern of behavior says much about the true state of the hearts of those who have claimed to have “restored New Testament Christianity” in our age.
This is an excellent video.
The one factor is that this person is opened to questioning.
So critical - God has to open eyes.
W. F. Thank you sir! I hope that God can use my experiences through this video to reach may people.
Also, Thank you for your kind words and for watching!
I also debated a CoC preacher on the topic “How Is One Saved?” Myself being a former CoC preacher, I wanted to give an encounter and show an example that one could leave the CoC and give an intelligent, respectful, and thorough defense for making that decision. I believe that was demonstrated quite clearly. The link for the debate is here czcams.com/video/TX3Tji3TgBE/video.html
@@soasuperant CCOC....you also have time.
CoC preaches a salvation by works which is no salvation at all.
This is quite correct no matter how much they howl in protest to the contrary.
It’s quite telling that their formula for salvation mirrors almost exactly the general Jewish consensus on how one was saved or “remained in the covenant” during 2nd Temple Judaism.
coc doesn't preach you are saved by grace through faith. Instead they preach the water gospel. Why? because most heard the gospel doesn't repent/believe. The Scripture is clear that spiritual dead person can not understand spiritual things and think that the gospel is foolish. Very few respond to the gospel if they are born from above, God has already worked their heart to grant them repentant heart. James is not teaching justification by work. Romans told us we are justified by Jesus' blood. James is telling us if you are indeed Children of God, you would live a life with fruits. The justification among men is by showing work, deeds, fruits. James is not taking salvation by work. Salvation is 100% the work of God. No one comes to Jesus unless God the Father chose the person before the foundation of the world so that no one could boast.
@@lindahutchens8612Here are some scriptures come to my mind: Eph 2:8, Luke 5:20, 7:20, John 3:15, Acts 10:43, John 3, Romans 5:8-9
@@lindahutchens8612 Paul said we want to focus on preaching the gospel, not water baptism. Water baptism is a public confession, pledge alligance to Jesus, it's ritual, sacrement whatever you call that after God chose you, after God cleanse your heart, after God gave you repentant heart, after your response (repent/believe) to God's grace. Romans 6, Col 2 are all spiritual baptism. Study John 3 Jesus taught Nicodemus how to be born from above, John 3:5 born of water and the spirit. v10 Jesus rebuted Nicodemus that he should have known (Ezekiel 11:18-19, 36:25-29, Jeremiah 31:33 God promised to salavation and a new convenant of grace. God sprinkles, God cleanses, God gives new heart, God puts new spirit, God will, God will, God wil…Salvation is 100% work of God. God births new creation and humans have no contribution to his/her spiritual birth. Men’s tradition and philosophy blind people from knowing God. What does Deuteronomy 6:5 say if you really mean it, don’t you want to know what’s on God’s mind? He told us all the good things come from above, born from above comes from Him. He is the God of salvation. I think many churches misrepresent God's salvation due to men's traditions and teachings (5 steps to salvation from coc is foolish, sinners prayer is foolish). It really hinders the body of Christ from getting to the truth. We are being divided over these things and we miss all the good things from above.
@@lindahutchens8612 coc's 5 steps to salvation is foolish. God's salavation is we are saved by grace through faith. Adding baptism to grace would not be grace. Water baptism is work of men. Salvation is work of God. God does His part, you get water baptized to pledge your alligance to Jesus as your clear conscience to God. You are the one who ignored scriptures where God told you are saved by grace through faith. Suppose you get married, marriage certificate is your justification that your marriage contract is legal according to civil court. Your wedding ceremony is expected but some people don't for various reasons. Salvation is 100% the work of God. On Judgement day, your justification to grant you to Heaven is Jesus' blood (God's grace). Your water baptism is not the justification. Your faith is not the justification. Does it make sense? Our God is a jealous God, 100% His glory. If you add men's decisions, men's work, even men's self righteousness, you have robbed God's glory. You already have the fullness of Christ. There are people on death bed made the confess then they are saved (romans 10:9). You will only coc people criticize oh no, he's not saved because he didn't dunk in the water. Can't you see the heresy here? Who does the saving, God or your coc pharaisees???? Besides Jesus never water baptized anyone but disciples practiced it. Paul didn't baptize many except to preach the gospel. By grace through faith, Abraham, Sarah, Noah all received eternal life. By faith God used me and others miraculously rescued my father from his severe covid illness.
I don't know why you take a high-road arguement about the CoC claiming heaven in their belifs. Do you not condemn the Mormons, JWs, and muslims? Thuninterpret the bible differently?
The issue is
1.) Who is Jesus?
and
2.) What is the gospel?
Mormons, JW’s, and Muslims are wrong on both counts.
The CoC is less than orthodox at times in the first and completely wrong on the second.
@@ReformedOudeis 1. You implicitly admit doctrine matters, but make Jesus' deity the touchstone. 2.If you mean the gospel, as in what one does to be saved, then you still have vast disagreement between many "Christian" groups. For example, many Holiness groups demand speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation, while Baptists may make a belief and prayer essential.
Doctrine does indeed manner, yet scripturally we find that there are certain doctrines that are primary and non-negotiable, and there are other doctrines wherein we are free to differ on without compromising the central tenants of Christianity.
The Diety of Christ, that He is the Son of God, and that the being of God is Triune in nature are central tenants of the Christian faith. Those who differ are out of step with the once for all delivered faith as recorded in the Bible.
That salvation is by faith and not by works is also clearly defined as non-negotiable in the Scriptures. Systems of religion that attempt to merge the two do not accurately portray the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We are also told that the faith results in justification also results in sanctification; works must follow. If there is no evidence of the grace of God, one is not holding on to the true grace of God.
Matters outside these central pillars as defined by the Bible are secondary in nature.
There is no doubt that there is disagreement in “Christianity” on even primary issues, but as the Bible also states these divisions are necessary in order that those who are genuine might be revealed. These deviations can be clearly documented and refuted as the central core doctrines of the faith are clearly recorded in Scripture.
I came out of Herbert Armstrong's WCG cult and then I got tripped up with the Campbellites for a while. I got out of that and I have tried various churches around here but NO ONE wants to talk to me in the Churches I have attended. I gave up with man made religion "Church" but I keep on praying to Jesus. I will never give up on Him...EVER.
Have you tried talking to a pastor or some of the church leadership in some of those churches? If you let them know you’d like to be a part of their local church family, they would probably set you up with a small group fellowship which could give you an introduction to the whole group which would be most helpful. I will pray for you! I hope this can help you out :)
Also, Thank you for your kind words and for watching!
I also debated a CoC preacher on the topic “How Is One Saved?” Myself being a former CoC preacher, I wanted to give an encounter and show an example that one could leave the CoC and give an intelligent, respectful, and thorough defense for making that decision. I believe that was demonstrated quite clearly. The link for the debate is here czcams.com/video/TX3Tji3TgBE/video.html
@@ReformedOudeis Thanks you for the link. I will checkit out. Peace brother.
This uploader spread hate there is no assembly/member wanted to be called as "Campbellite" the church doesnt recognize him as a founder. Out of respect for your country men address them of what they want to be called. Stop the hate there is no love in hate.
I do not spread hate; I simply seek that a standard of equal scales be promoted and upheld by both sides.
They are quite fine calling me all sorts of names due to the past history of the theological tradition I agree with, yet when I point out their own history, suddenly they ferociously object.
If I’m to be called a Baptist, then they should accept the term Campbellite as they refuse to acknowledge that I am a Christian yet demand I grant all their assumptions in calling them Christians from the beginning of any discussion.
@@ReformedOudeis do you want to be called "dorky" or some other inappropriate name by other people rather than your real name ?
@vegetathe4th376 The term Campbellite in and of itself is not a term of derision if one is using this only as a way to classify someone with regards to where they stand on various theological issues.
That being said, anyone who does use this term in a derogatory way should immediately cease and desist. This kind of behavior does not promote wholesome dialogue and friendly discussions.
My point has been and still is that the CoC does not use equal standards when it comes to this issue.
I should not have to grant their entire religious system as being authentic before I am granted an opportunity to speak to anyone of your camp regarding these issues.
@@ReformedOudeis if I call you dorky would you like it? Just answer the question
@@vegetathe4th376 Your question was more than sufficiently answered.
The problem is that you do not like the answer.
I will not grant your assumptions by giving deference to your demand for you to only be called by a name that you approve.
There is no "THE CHURCH OF CHRIST." Those with a sign out front are very different. That's what 99% of people, even members, don't know. There isn't any hierarchy.
I'm just a plain vanilla Christian. So don't shoot the messenger.
Ok. Full stop. I stopped at the 2 minute mark Paul. Here's where you missed the mark right off the bat. (I say this in kindness.) You said that the Church of Christ believes such and such. Here's the problem. There is no single Church of Christ. Each church is independent and each independent church has its preferred favorite bits of religion, as long as certain core beliefs are upheld. If you visit my church you'll never ever be told that it's my church or the highway straight to hell.
Are there CoC's in my area who might still tell you this bogosity in modern times? Certainly. But not all. Therefore, if thy present CoC offend ye, then by all means seek another more to the liking. Don't quit the whole program. My goodness!
To add a little meat to what I said. Because of ignorant statements coming from a particular CoC in my area that I heard and saw growing up the LAST place I EVER intended to affiliate with was the CoC. Flash forward about 40 years and a sort of miraculous thing happened that tossed me into the orbit of my present CoC church. After a couple of years of testing and observing I fully joined. Guaranteed, if my church had been in the slightest like your experiences...I woulda never hooked up. I present my experience as an example of why it's never a good idea to present the CoC as one unified place. It ain't. There is one that will fit just about anyone. Just have to look around.
I am glad that you are not affiliated with the hard-shell Churches of Christ that are extremely prevalent within the South Eastern United States.
However, to dismiss these groups as being an irrelevant “minority” is a gross distortion of the facts.
If you wish to reinvent the CoC, by all means do so, but you cannot deny the fact that the churches that have departed from their rigid legalism and exclusivism have betrayed the key historical claims and arguments of the heirs of the Restoration Movement.
I wish any CoC the best if they are trying to walk back the excesses and abuses of the most rigid of CoC’s, and I hope they stay within the bounds of orthodoxy as they do so since so many drift off into a liberalism that knows no bounds.
@@ReformedOudeis Hello there RO. Truly, I don't have a cat in this fight. Just a spectator. Here is what I know... there are hardshells all over. The hardshells of the CoC famously battled the hardshells of other denominations, (lots of Baptists!) for decades and decades. It was the WWE church pro wrestling of the day with skads of fans. Fantastically popular. Completely not my cup of tea, nor the folks I church with today. In my estimation the CoC was its own worst enemy running off way more than it ever recruited.
Those days are gone gone doggies, for the most part. Yes, there are still plenty of hardshell churches out there, but there are many more that are not. That's all I'm sayin'. It's no longer all one way. And lastly, I doubt many CoC's...at least none that I have ever been acquainted with have ever gone whole hog left. For that there is always the Disciples. And even there you have more and less liberal churches. Again, it's short sighted to dump all CoC'ers into one bag. The churches which prosper today, no matter the denomination, are the ones that gravitate towards the Golden Rule...not the ones who work hard to prove they are right and everyone else is wrong. Many of the older people in my church who were raised in the church have seen it both ways... and they prefer the more moderate approach...which is in no way to say the more 'liberal' way. So, yes, things change.
This video could be called how to get a Christian to lose their salvation.
The King James Version IS THE correct Bible Version. ESV and NIV are very bad, their own scriptures condemn them, one example I will give is: 1John 4:2-3.
First the correct scriptures:
1 John 4:2-3
Authorized (King James) Version
"2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
Now the satanic versions:
1 John 4:2-3
New International Version
"2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
1 John 4:2-3
English Standard Version
"2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already."
In the following link, I compare the King James Version (KJV) which is the correct version for the English language to two popular versions that are incorrect and I prove why, these two false versions are the New King James Version (NKJV) and the New International Version (NIV).
what is your standard for what scripture is bad??
The evil one is working overtime to get people out of the one true church that is the church of Christ, do not fall for this....
In other words, “pay no attention to that man behind the curtain,” the one true church of Christ has spoken.
No counter evidence offered, just don’t watch these videos lol
Orthodoxy is the true church COC never had a name but is from Ancient Britain it evolves and absorbs traditions from Rome and King Henry VIII they migrate to the Colonies after the English Civil War. Barton Stone comes and changes the Methodist Church then comes Campbell who worships with the Baptists leaves starts his own movement worships with the English Church this church calls itself or says Church of Christ meets here they absorb Campbell's traditions no more genuflecting no more incense no more candles tiny liturgy boring services I wish the ancient traditions would come back. Church of Christ refuses the Church being Apostolic and Catholic I am COC and declare Orthodoxy and Catholicism for the church to become Episcopate go back to Holy Tradition become once more the Church of Jesus and the 12 Apostles I myself have
Shame on you! Trying to say a MAN (Alexander Campbell 1788 to 1866) started the Lord's Church that was actually started 2000 years ago and is called by name "church of Christ" in the Bible. Church records here and Europe exist long before the birth of Alexander Campbell.
There is no documented evidence that exists that any church has existed in the form that the CoC insists it must be for salvation to occur until the time of the Restoration Movement.
No serious church historian would affirm the historical claims of the CoC.
@@ReformedOudeis czcams.com/video/NrUb7tSG2E4/video.html
Campbell started the movement. Shame on you for denying history.
@@ReformedOudeis there were churches of Christ in England over 100 years before Alexander Campbell was born (1950 Abilene Christian College Bible Lectures, pp. 191-192), and a church of Christ was located at North Yarmouth, Tennessee (near Celina) in 1736, 50 years before Alexander Campbell was born (Gospel Advocate, LXXXI, 693, July 27, 193
@@ReformedOudeis Romans 16:16 and there are church records and standing buildings long before the birth of Alexander Campbell.
Why are you calling people Campbellites... Are you trying to insult or were you insulted by someone in the Church maybe..... I'm sorry but this seems very insincere, what happened to you?
It is a matter of using equal scales. The CoC has no problems using labels to identify people like myself; they shouldn’t be upset if the same standard is applied toward them.
I think you will discover that there isn’t a hint of insincerity in the content on my channel.
I do not believe the CoC is the New Testament church as they claim.
@@ReformedOudeis equal scales sound like tooth for tooth... Hence the question...To me it seems you're bitter at this point... Just be freed of it... 6 years this video has been up...why not just move on and be freed from it... Or did someone say something you cant get away from?
@Letitbebeautiful4evr The use of a lane is not in and of itself a pejorative. Rather it is simply a short hand designation that sums up a particular set of beliefs.
Using this term in a pejorative way is not tolerated or promoted by this channel.
However this group has a history of doing irreparable harm to the church at large, and this channel seeks to equip people to adequately interact with them for the benefit of not only themselves but the church as a whole.
@@ReformedOudeis Listen here... what history are you talking about? "pejorative"...You're calling people a name they don't call themselves by... Are they not Christian in your opinion either?
Why waste your time "evangelizing" a Christian?
There are 2 reasons: not everyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian, and the Christian never graduates from hearing the gospel. Being a Christian is a lifestyle of repentance and faith.
@@ReformedOudeis "Let the tares grow up with the wheat" --Jesus. He will sort us out in the end. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
This is a good video and I appreciate your attitude and heart. The only thing I would urge you to reconsider is the departure from the KJV. The KJV is the preserved word of God. If God's word gives light and you are using Bibles from Alexandria Egypt, the light will be faded at best.
Thank you for your kind words and for watching!
I also debated a CoC preacher on the topic “How Is One Saved?” Myself being a former CoC preacher, I wanted to give an encounter and show an example that one could leave the CoC and give an intelligent, respectful, and thorough defense for making that decision. I believe that was demonstrated quite clearly. The link for the debate is here czcams.com/video/TX3Tji3TgBE/video.html
so what was read before the KJV??
@@respectingthewordpodcast Well it would depend on what you had available if anything. That's a rather broad question. Are you wanting me to go through the Hebrew, Greek, Old Syriac, Aramaic, Old Latin and German? Are you wanting to discuss what most people had access to if anything? Is that the point or are you driving at something else? I'll just say before we go to deep here, things that are different are not the same. Take whatever Bible you are currently using and sit down and read side by side, word by word, chapter by chapter with a KJV. You tell me if they say the same thing and if they do then I'll throw my Bible in the trash.
@@haveyeneverread9648 why would I compare to KJV for when there were many translation before it? Why not the oldest scrolls comparison. They would be the standard.