Cheesing Bosses, Overpowered Weapons, And Gatekeeping | Elden Ring
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
- 0:00 Fighting Cowboy's tweet
2:19 Cheesing bosses
3:16 Overpowered things
4:46 Gatekeeping
Thumbnail art by: / nattydread011
Comet Azure footage by: • Elden Ring- Commander ... - Hry
Part 2: czcams.com/video/DHbpPPeNkZ4/video.html
You’re the man
Nothing wrong with gatekeeping...we've seen to many communities get taken over by outsiders.
Wonderful! Now I know that you're deceitful. I must click the bell notification icon, otherwise I fear that I wont be able to watch the video, since you can delete it at any time, as you've proven previously. If that happens again, I'll miss your true and honest opinion.
I find this curious, because I almost never click that Bell, no matter how much I like that CZcamsr.
personally think its ok to play the game any way you like it but its also fun to experiment with new things
@@eliudelcastillo2350 Now that’s a hot take! He provides a video for clarification, labels it PART 2, references his first video…and you think…he’s being deceitful?
Sir, can you please show me on this doll where Ratatoskr has hurt you?
My current feeling about this game is to play it anyway you want as long as you personally are having a good time... who cares what any other gamers thinks.
Yeah, I have a friend that finished the game and is going to make a new game (ina conoletely new save file), I told him I didn't understand his decision, why starting a new game when you can start a new game +? In my opinion is better in all ways. So I don't share his opinion, but I respect his decision. Let people play the game however they want. Same goes for the weapons or spells people uses.
@@Dekross I would rather start a new save file than go to NG+ because I'm most likely bored with the playstyle I used and want to try something else, and actually gathering the gear and placing the stats for a build over time is my favorite part of an RPG
I would argue this is true, so long as it does not directly disrupt another player's experience, such as twinking invasions.
@@Dekross You can't truely experience Margit if you aren't below level 20.
@@malnourishd1 level 0 bro 😎
Here's my point of view that no one asked for:
I enjoy grinding levels and feeling overpowered. I also want to look up everything so I don't miss any items or quests. Playing the game in this way maximizes the fun for me.
That being said, someone who beats the whole game on level 10 with a club deserves to feel more accomplished than me. That sounds like an absolutely miserable experience, but you definitely got to interact with every bosses move set. We both maximize our fun and we should respect each other's point of view.
Filthy casul
I agree with this, what's fun to me with the game is having the option to get so strong I feel powerful and then my ego gets shattered when I get to fight Malekith.
@Raskolnikov Well put.
I get this so well, but I also get the _"why not look everything up for the 2nd playthrough and just have that one and only chance of finding things on your own"_ argument Rata made on his 'get naked' video.
Overleveling and looking everything up sounds miserable to me. No discovery, no challenge, no mystery, nothing. Just a hollow experience. But if it's fun for you, that's fine. However I do think there's a happy medium between trivializing the game and doing it at level 10. In fact the happy medium is pretty much the way the devs expect most people to play on a 1st run. Not level 10, but also not overleveled. And I think that happy medium makes more sense.
I’ve always thought of it like this: “the boss is using whatever it has at its disposal so Ill just use whatever I have.” At the end of the day I’m just playing the way I want and I encourage everyone else to do so to.
Play the game accordingly to the experience you want to have.
Sounds good but is not as satisfying, I mean I was happy to 5 jump malenia with double seppuku twin blade and mimic but it was nowhere as satisfying as when I legit 1v1 her without any cheese or gimmick in NG+
I would recommend people to fight each boss at least once in a legit 1v1 later on in their play.
@@herohonda4183 Good for you. Thankfully, no one gives a fuck
@@herohonda4183 be me
>played second Souls like game ever
>was using RoB and BHS since 1.02
>1.03 dropped and oopsie now i'm cheeser and something that normal human would call like "He didnt have a father that for sure"
>started new character , went fire/streight
>Get trough pain and suffering of unversetile build
>Got to Malenia
>Died more than any youtuber ever did
> Respected to arcane/dex back anyway
The Elden Lord is supposed to be OP anyway so, as far as I’m concerned, the Tarnished rampaging their way across the Lands Between is lore-friendly
@@glassplanet5624 “supposed to be” the Elden ring isn’t supposed to be anything, the whole idea of souls games is that we are underpowered nobody compared to the rest of the world but still prevail through sheer fucking will.
Miyazaki likes the very human idea of being born a nobody but being a somebody through hard work, skills and dedication. This is seen in all his games
I kinda agree. I would give the same advice: "dont look stuff up". Going in blind is a great way to enjoy the game. But I wouldnt even advice "dont cheese". If they did not look stuff up and found cheeses for bosses, that is a great sense of accomplishment since nobody told them how to achieve that. I love this game and I love that people want to play it
Going blind for quests and shit? No thanks lmfao
But at the same time the game encourages you to look stuff up through messages and bloodstains left by other players. Even if you don't read them, their positions give away secrets, hidden dangers, cheese spots.
@@LordShrub yeah I dont see this as looking stuff up, it is by design
Skkippers be like:
I don’t have enough time to go into this game blind. Lol. Especially for those long ass side quests. Nah.
I see cheesing as jumping over the lord of blood's wall and just wacking away while he stands there. But making a really powerful build that can destroy bosses is just another play style
I don’t see dual cold katanas as cheesing even tho they melt bosses because you have to respect the bosses attacks and learn how to dodge and when to punish. Summoning a friend to rack up damage and pull a boss’s agro as u spam magic from afar, or run in to get the occasional hit is cheesing tho. And when I hear my friends complain about how poorly made and stupid a boss is when I’m the one fighting it gets on my nerves.
@@jasemayfield6853 yeah you can’t brag about beating a boss if you had two other people do it for you. But if you spec into 60+ int and made an op build, you’re just smart
True, though there are certain things that are simply broken and need tuning balance wise. But overall, a good build is a good build, and it should give you advantages.
@@jasemayfield6853 Dude that's just multiplayer. Different experience and not cheesing, someone still had to put in the swings.
@@jasemayfield6853 If you use overpovered weapons you don't need to respect anything if you can kill it in a few hits. As long as you don't get oneshoted of course. In fact I believe that is exactly the reason why FROM increased dmg values in late game so much. They don't want players to cheese their bosses.
All wins are legitimate.
Someone should tell that to bosses with post fight dialogue
“The one who stands in the end is righteous!”
@@yamnbam4346 Happened to me with Maliketh.
Except if you summon Dungeater Puppet.
Wrong
Hmm. I take "cheesing" to mean "using exploits." Figuring out infinite comet azur is, I think, a bit different than making demon of hatred jump off the map in Sekiro.
What about stunlocking lady butterfly with dodge, attack, dodge, attack until her health is gone?
Beating a boss in a completely unintended way, like leading them off a cliff so they instantly die from fall damage, is cheesing in my opinion, NOT using spells and skills that the developers put into the game themselves
its ok. OP is obviously a melee user.
@@JordanII. I think that depends if some combos of weapons/items/spells are far more broken then intended, at some point I think that could be said to be cheese. Remember that cheese is not a negative thing
@@adrianeden8977 I kinda think it depends. If you just happen to figure that out for yourself, I think it's great. If, on the other hand, you watched the Tyrannicon video about it or something, then that's probably a cheese (or, at the very least, cheesy; full disclosure, I cheesed the fuck outta that Lone Shadow in the monkey area outside of Ashina...fuck those guys).
And this suggests there's something relevant about figuring out the thing for yourself vs. emulating a thing you saw on CZcams or a guide. I think that oughtta be included in our future discussions of cheesing.
In most cases, I completely engage with the mechanics of fromsoft bosses, save for the cases in which I think the mechanics are badly designed (e.g. bed of chaos). I have no remorse for cheesing bed of chaos. As for things like summons being cheesing, I think that's a flawed viewpoint because summons were clearly intended to be used on bosses (signs even appear outside the boss arenas in most fromsoft games). To not use summons isn't to do things "the right way" but to incur an additional, self-imposed challenge.
Yep. Why people think that everyone must fight bosses in a harder way to be “legitimate” is beyond me. Take their logic to its extreme, and only level 1, no gear boss kills should count as “legitimate”. It’s a silly and immature attitude.
While I see nothing wrong with summoning, it does let you not engage with the boss' mechanics. Having a boss aggro away from you make it way easier to pull off attacks, especially for a mage. Again, I don't mind people using spirit ashes or summoning. Hell, I've been helping people with Malenia myself.
@@asianfidance2224 Summons can allow you to temporarily disengage, but they're far from an out. I should mention all my summons in previous souls games have been AI, so they aren't anywhere near smart enough to carry. I also summoned the most in DS2, which had the most group boss fights as far as I'm aware.
@@getmeouttahere7638 Iron Tarkus would like to have a word with you... 😅
I still feel that beating a boss with ashes is less satisfactory than beating it on your own. I'm still bad at the game so i keep summoning, but in the end i feel less proud compared to a good fight with a series of dodges, parries and repostes. I also don't have excessive free time to play, so i keep summoning.
My problem is that the definition of “fighting a boss normally” is very limited. I think the reason FS nerfed some powerful tools (and buffed some of the less powerful spells) is that they want the player to be overpowered in a variety of ways. They don’t want hoarfrost stomp or mimic tear to always be the answer.
A good example are some of the gank bosses. With Erdtree Burial Watchdog duo, you can throw a couple crystal darts to berserk the watchdogs and get them to kill each other to make it a 1v1 fight. Demi-Human Chiefs are in a room filled with mobs that can swarm you and even kick the ass of otherwise powerful summons like Godrick Soldiers, except for wandering nobles, who can swarm and stun lock one of the chiefs to free to player to clear out the mobs. A final example would be Commander Naill, where the player can throw a betwitching beach to get to Naill’s summons to turn on him.
The point of these examples is to show that many of the ways you can fight bosses don’t fall under the definition used for “fighting normally,” and would be considered “cheesing” by some. However, these actually engage with the game mechanics more since you’re taking advantage of boss characteristics that a dodge and punish melee focus never would (Watchdogs as multiple easily frenzied husks, the Demi-chiefs as a staggerable hoard, Naill’s summons as spirits).
Again, FS’s patches have pointed towards this since they don’t want players to just use SoNaF and Mimic Tear, but to experiment with the other summons, and the mass of craftable items.
This is a consistent design choice going back to DeS, where every enemy had exploitable weaknesses (to an almost comical level), whether than be Fire, magic, piercing attacks, bows, great flame shield, etc.).
These are fantasy adventure games at their core, and Elden Ring has leaned the most into the adventure part, and part of that is finding and experimenting with new and silly ways to fight back against a cruel world
Agree and as example i would like to focus on mimic tear which was op before patch because a mage could summon it and the tear would have tank levels of HP.
Mimic tear is at a perfect balance right now, I beat the game with only 9 mind and up until i got infinite FP (75% thru), mimi was my only option other than jellyfish or wolfs but based on the boss i would equip different gear summon and then swap gear for myself as need to complement. If i hadn't already been tanky my self mimic would have no hp and no defense but if i tried to cheat its intent and cross equip some "op" spells well it ended up not doing very much dmg if any because i wouldn't have done much either since most of my mage stats stayed at base lvl and i would boost stats to be able to use a spell so I could try and force mimic to use. Even though i mostly used mimic for mid thru late game. Its balance would have me thinking about not just my gear but its gear before i summoned, adding a nice RTS element.
A lot of optional bosses punish rolling, parry, AND block but instantly break down with just two targets in the arena
Uhhh, not sure what ur getting at, but I would go out on a limb to say that using mimic tear and that frost move aren’t the intended or normal “answer” to beating or fighting a boss. I think there is a wide spectrum between cheesing and doing the most optimal, efficient or intended strat
I was honestly surprised how many DS1 bosses had gimmicks which void the difficulty. People act like “casuals” are new, but this crap has been around for a decade
I find the easy/cheesy debate so interesting. I took your advice from a while ago and started my first play through as the Wretch. Gradually found strength and faith based stuff, and then eventually respecced into a Paladin samurai. It felt like a very natural progression.
But, I think, things like infinite FP+kamehameha aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there to make you feel like a powerful fucking wizard.
Summon ashes aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there because co-op is such an important part of the game, that they wanted you to be able to experience it even if your friends aren't online.
I was level 135 when fighting Mohg and even with a +10 mimic tear, I still had to fight strategically to win. Even with +10 on one of the best summon items, it took me like 15 tries and it still required me to learn movesets and strategize. Though obviously there are bosses that get absolutely melted by any co-oping whatsoever.
To me, souls and Elden Ring are role-playing games. That's why I don't mind people looking up sheet to go for their build, cuz one of the most satisfying things is having your build finished and playing the character the way you want to. And if that means that the end result of their build is boss-melting badassery either in the form of magic, incantations or melee combat, then that makes sense right? By the end of the epic fantasy series, the good guys is usually mega powerful.
To me, moreso than game balance, that's the experience the game is trying to give you.
Mimic Tear made my Malenia win far more satisfying than I ever could have expected. See, as a mage, that thing can't solo shit. But what it can do is coordinate with me. It can time a perfect staggerlock with the Spinning Weapon staff ash to let me rush in, or synchronize Wing of Astel casts for that poise buildup. And it can do what made the fight feel awesome - double down on Adula's Moonblade. Being perfectly in sync with the Mimic for a few precious seconds and watching the scariest boss in the game melt to a coordinated attack is incredible.
I don't know how the hell it nuked Goddess of Rot before dying, though. I think its AI randomly decided to finally use my Dark Moon Greatsword. But whatever insane kamikaze attack it pulled off let me win there too.
Honestly? Worth it. Sure it did 2/3 of phase 2 through inscrutable wizardry. But for a few brief moments there actually was just straight up two of me fighting up close and personal, and damned if that doesn't rock.
Personally, I think a large part of the issue with "cheesing" is the role of the internet and overpowered build guides one can find online. If you're someone who found all the elements of the comet azure strat yourself, put them all together in your own head and thought "is this gonna work?" and then nuked a boss, you've absolutely earned that victory 100%.
However, if you looked up online how to make the build, followed a guide on getting all the items and putting them together properly, then you've just robbed yourself of the chance to invent that strategy yourself, and it also makes any boss victories you have with it feel a bit... hollow. Like, someone else did all the work for you. The hardest part of the comet azure strat is to find all the items and make the build. If you've essentially cheated that part with a guide, you've left yourself with no room to add your own input to the gameplay. You might as well just watch someone else do it.
Wretchtard
@@NabsterHax and that does affect you in what way exactly? who are you to judge someone elses experience?
@Johnny Millar See you are not exactly supposed to be a boss-melting-badass in this franchise, that is why it is kinda strange. And if you look at the interview with Miyazaki it is generally more about overcoming challenges, than roleplay per se. And if you just straight up skip those it seems not to be in the interest of the developer (I think).
Other fact, there are a lot of first trys which end up with a katana+(wisdom/faith) build. Problem is more, that the combo is pretty strong and you will have no problem with the bosses (except for maybe 2-3). This doesn´t exactly mean that there are a lot of valid options, but rather that some options are just so strong that a lot of people flock to it. That is more or less bad design normally.
Which, to be fair can only be seen if you try a lot and multiple times. And probably won´t be an issue in your first run. Pretty much my experience btw. First run was a lot of fun, second and third build kind of frustrated me comparably more than giving me those nice little endorphine shots.
6:50 I agree, generally, with the sentiment... However, "Normal" for you is not "Normal" for everyone else. If someone finds, randomly, Tiche and +10's her after a boss fight or two, and seeing how strong she is... Then they use Tiche in every subsequent boss fight because she's efficient in overcoming the challenge... Is that cheese? Are they playing abnormally, even if they had zero knowledge that Tiche is considered a meta spirit ash?
There is no "Normal" way to play any souls game beyond "No abusing exploits like boss skips". If someone, playing blindly, comes to the conclusion that using a certain set up is their best bet at victory, then they'll use it. You might say a "Normal" way to play is to NOT use these items, as they make it so you don't "Engage" with boss mechanics, but for this random hypothetical individual the "Normal" way to play is a mage build that sits at the back while summoned players or spirit ashes handle the melee side of things.
I do get the point you're making, Rata... But I think Cowboy's remark, while poorly worded, wasn't aimed at players like you. It was aimed at people who genuinely, truly believe that you did not beat a boss if you didn't beat it solo with no ashes and no magic.
EDIT: Watched part 2, and he clarifies some things. I'll keep my post here because I'm weird like that, but I do agree with his sentiments, now that they've been cleared up.
I would change the wording so that "Normal" isn't the word used, but "Standard" is. It's pretty "Standard" that people play souls like games as you described unless they are trying to challenge themselves. I always look for what equals less effort for bosses in my gameplay because I don't want to learn patterns and mechanics. There's so many enemies in these games, and I'm unwilling to put this amount of effort into the game. That's me, though.
Newer players or more casual players play the games because they're interesting and challenging. That doesn't mean they want to do speed runs or lvl 1 runs in them. The "Standard" player isn't going to learn parry windows to do no hit runs, they're going to use the ridiculous sword they found that shoots a beam or a wave of fire because it's effective and efficient. Just like those death builds people were running for pvp. Those people weren't the regular pvp crowd that does roll catches and bait attacks to get you to swing so they can feel you out. They were randoms that saw an exploit that made you win and used it.
TL;DR: Essentially, players are going to use whatever is the most effective.
@@naezjinra You get it. Rata sorta covers this in his second part, basically saying "Play how you want", but adding on that one should do so blindly, if it's their first playthrough. That's logic I can agree with.
Makes the discovery of strong weapons, or abilities all the better, aye?
This is my first FS game and I’m slowly working thru it. I started as a melee type and then got super attracted to magic and am now drifting towards a magic/melee hybrid. However, I’m trying to make my magic first and melee almost as a last resort. If I start 3 shotting bosses I’m not gonna feel bad or like I’m cheesing because I am playing it blindly for the most part. I’ve had friends suggest things here and there but otherwise it’s MY play through and I’m adapting as I learn more.
Yeah but if it kills the boss in two seconds and all you had to do was press two buttons then that person will have skipped a part of the intended game. Which is engaging in the bosses mechanics. At least for a little. And that itself has a different meaning to everyone. It just come down to how you feel about that encounter. Did YOU feel like you cheated the game a little bit? Or did you legitimately have a good time for those two whole seconds. And even if you did there would be literally no way to reset time and go back do the boss a different way and then see which one you enjoyed better. Lol cheesing is just a basic term to say you might have gotten more value if you engaged more.
Nah. If a game from a developer that is notorious for making "hard" games is seeming easy and bosses are dying too fast... You're doing it wrong. A game with almost no concrete story and little to no direction is also not supposed to have stupidly easy combat encounters. What would be the point? The point of these games is supposed to be overcoming the challenges and the difficult and complex boss fights. If you remove that, what are you even playinf? A 3rd person MMORPG with a shitty story
I don’t necessarily think I’d call cheese things “from software catering to the masses” per se, I like to think of it as them realizing the absolutely ridiculous amount of content and bosses in this game as compared to their other titles. Fighting the same boss 20-50 times because you wanna bare bones it is kinda crazy to do when there’s probably 100+ bosses in the game. I think they just wanted to ensure that you could have a more steady progression and only skip bosses if you truly needed to. Yes the pure blood Souls og’s can probably knock them out in less than 20-50 times, but they are also creative minds that want more people to enjoy their hard work and passion, not rage quit their masterpiece. I’m 160 hours in and at the mountaintop of the giants. I’m a mage and just got mimic ashes like 20 hours ago. I use summons all the time, but spend extra time exploring each area as much as I can now.
I also explore as much as I can. I search every nook and cranny. I also just got to the mountaintops of the giants region, first playthrough, and have 240 hours in the game.
I replied to someone else that we need to differentiate between "cheesing" and "easy mode". Cheesing is using exploits to avoid actually engaging enemies. Hitting enemies through a wall, or being just outside their tether range so they continually reset without ever being able to engage the player, for example.
Then there are "easy mode" tactics, like the spirit summons, comet azur, etc., where I agree with what you said. I believe FromSoft put these mechanics in the game to help people choose their own difficulty, so to speak. They didn't add difficulties to the game, because people already have control over how difficult their own experience is.
For instance, people don't have to use spirits to fight bosses if they don't want to, which results in greater challenge. But spirits are there for those who want to beat the bosses a bit more easily, so they can get back to exploring the game world.
A player can use various mechanics in the game to make an encounter or engagement easier, but that's not the same as cheesing. Cheesing is circumventing an encounter, where the enemy literally _can not_ engage the player.
@@BurgerwithPeanutButter good take
This is not about spirit summons. This is not about spirit summons. This is not about spirit summons.
Spirit summons are easy mode...and thats ok
We all know it is... and that they are pussys!!!!
@@Nirv2267 but poorly implemented mode
@@Nirv2267 I use Lattena, she does damage but does not move so that means she won't usually draw a bosses aggro. It's not damage that makes coop and summoning op, it's just the fact that the AI can not handle fighting more than one person.
I am new to From Software games. I do use the Spirit Summons BUT, ONLY after I have tried to do the boss solo.
This game is really f’n hard at times. I have zero qualms about using all of the tools and combinations of tools at my disposal.
Edit: Just so it's clear, I'm still on my first playthrough. I've done pretty much everything, killed Malenia and I've just killed Bernahl in Crumbling Farum Azula. I've been using a nightrider flail with a frost ash for build up, but I use a greatshield / guard counter strategy. No cheese, but I don't mind using my mimic tear.
as Josh from RageGamingvideos puts it "Considering how many BS ways this game punishes you, I will use every advantage at my disposal, regardless of how "OP" it is!"
@@deinonychus1948 all facts
The only cheesing in Elden Ring is abusing exploits and glitches, I good one to point out right now is the Carian/Thop's WA glitch that can one shot even the toughest bosses. Or the insta-death glitch that was patched out recently.
Cowboy is the only soulsborne source I trust.
@@deinonychus1948 how does it punish you tho
This is a very interesting take. My personal advice would be to not immediately try to rush through every boss fight with cheese, but to also not beat your head against the wall far past the point where you stopped having fun.
Engage with the game. And if you get to a point where thay engagement is no longer fun then smash past it however is most convenient.
When did cheesing turn from exploiting bugs or design oversights to using the games systems as intended and learning strategies? I've seen videos saying "THIS IS HOW YOU CHEESE MELANIA" after I beat her and its literally just "run away when she starts waterfowl, and dodge towards her on her third attack in the string and you *might* survive." Like what? How is that cheesing?
As for people having conniptions about the infinite fp flask and comet azure, most late game bosses move around a lot and are typically programmed to dodge or go on the offensive after taking a bit of damage, locking back onto a boss, charging comet azure, and hitting them during the very limited ten second window you've got and doing it *multiple times* during an encounter isn't as busted as it looks. Even if you break their posture most end game bosses have enough health where they'll still be up and kicking the shit out of you during the cast animation while you're rooted to the ground and unable to lock onto them again. Is it strong? Very. Will it win you every fight? Definitely not.
Comet Azur isn’t quite as bad as the Meteorite spell you get from Astel imo.
I had to desperately beg my friend to stop casting and then let him die to the final boss without assistance, because in one continuous cast on his first attempt he managed to take out 90% of it’s *boosted* health bar.
He thanked me more than once afterwards and it turned out to be his favourite boss fight in the game, but he almost missed it because that one spell was too powerful.
I think a particular strategy being able to take out even *one* boss without them getting a chance to fight back is a problem, one way or another. If it's not the tutorial boss, it should at least have the ability to *function* no matter what you throw at it, barring something utterly ridiculous like a maxed out character going back to stomp an early game boss you missed (and even that shouldn't be *that* bad).
Like, I think we can agree that a particular boss just flat out breaking if approached a certain way-just standing there, unresponsive while you whittle away its HP-would be a problem, right? Or if you find a particular spot where you can hit and kill a boss, but it's just incapable of hurting you in return, etc. Or heck, how about a full on bug or design oversight that allows you to skip a boss entirely, like going out of bounds? We all agree that's not how bosses are supposed to work, right?
So what difference does it really make if a particular spell, with the right setup, produces basically the same experience? If I can enter a boss arena, kill the boss, and then leave again without having seen a single attack, what does it really matter how I got there? How is that *not* an oversight on the developer's part? Do you really think From *intended* for any number of the bosses to be reduced to punching bags, unable to threaten the player *at all,* with a single spell?
And, of course: I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, play a particular way. It doesn't affect my experience at all, unless I happen to summon you online or something. But don't get mad at somebody just because they define cheesing as 'stuff which outright breaks the game,' alright? Because that's what he's saying: a boss being unable to respond to the player is broken, which we all seem to agree with, up until our favorite method of bypassing a boss fight gets called into question.
Ratatoskr defines what he considers cheesing pretty clearly: Circumventing the encounter's mechanics by not engaging with them. I consider this a pretty good definition.
@@Dragonswiftx if I die 20 times to the encounter’s mechanics, I’ve engaged.
Took me a full day to beat melenia. I upgraded probably at least 5 different things and still just had to in a way git good. I ended up finding a weapon that I was most comfortable with for the situation and learned the dance.
The only thing I might add is:
Everyone has their own thresholds for frustration. And everyone has their own thresholds where throwing your body at something just isn't fun anymore. I think the best experience is go in blind and figure it out yourself, but sometimes it just doesn't come. If the game stops being fun for frustration's sake, it's cool to look something up so you can get back to having fun.
I completely agree. Not everyone has unlimited time to replay the same boss or quest. People have kids, jobs, responsibilities. Should they not be able to enjoy the game they paid for?
I think they should do whatever they want to make the game fun, since it was their $50 spent.
However, I like the idea of working within the games mechanics.
this is very true, i spent the first 1 and a half hours of the game grinding out the tree sentinel fight as wretch, and loved it, spent 5 minutes in the dual crucible knight fight extremely overleveled and spiked my controller for the first time in my life
my perspective is that there's a lot of value in fully engaging with good boss design, and bad design is usually better cheesed than not
Completely agree. I play everything blind the first time through but if after a frustrating amount of deaths I still can't kill the boss then I'm looking up a good strategy because it just becomes a chore is no longer fun.
@@chriss4855 My issue is bosses that once felt fresh, by endgame are reused, causing them to feel far less special or unique and rather just tougher mobs you have to deal with.
I would say cheesing is something like standing behind a doorway so an enemy cannot hurt or get to you but you can still attack. Using the stats and armaments and items the devs put in the game to take a boss out stupidly quick is not cheesing. It’s just how the player chose to play a game. This is an rpg. If you want to play as a ridiculously strong spellcaster, you can do that.
@@WhiteBoyGamer Weapons and spells get nerfed exclusively because the PvP crowd bitches and moans about them, absolutely nothing to do with the PvE. It's always been like this.
Another thing needs to be mentioned,
If u go out of ur way and look up specific cheese/dead angle of bosses then that immediately devalues ur playthrough experience. I dunno how ppl can have fun cheesing if they didnt figure out the exploits or items organically. Maybe they just like the power fantasy and dont appreciate being the underdog overcoming the goliath i guess
@@btchiaintkidding7837 for me, i really don’t like cheesing because it takes away the thrill and the diffuclty that bosses offers. but i am forced to cheese due to lack of time on understanding every move set of every boss. i just pick the boss that i like and fight it square or when i knew that i can’t do it on few hours, i cheese it or use co-op to help me
i think if u play as a spellcaster thats not cheesing, but that specific infinite azur comet strat 100% is.
Completely agree. Cheesing, to me, implies that the game is being played in a way that was not intended by the devs. Using mechanics in the game as they were intended to be used should not be called cheesing imo. The “cheesing is when you avoid engaging with the game’s mechanics” seems necessary but not sufficient for a complete definition of cheesing.
I have had 4 friends played elden ring, 2 of them cheesed every encounter they could and looked up all the guides possible before hand, 1 of them looked up minor stuff such as upgrade materials and 1 went in completely blind. The 2 that cheesed everything have not finished the game, both quit after Radahn, they said that they knew all the stuff that was coming from video's (one even watched all endings) and have had 0 motivation to play whatsoever. The one who looked up minor things has fallen in love with the game completely, but has regretted looking up things since he felt like the surprise of his playthrough was ruined and he killed the bosses too easily. The last one is on his third playthrough, still finding new things, still enjoying himself. I did the same as well, going in blind, and have never had a more satisfying gaming experience. Of course this is just personal bias, but I think that if all my friends played the game blind from the start they would have all fallen in love with the game completely.
I looked up s couple things, but legit found 99% of it on my own. Still love it.
I would love to be that blind player, but I can't do that when I take my time and EVERY FRICKING THING ON THE INTERNET IS A SPOILER.
TRUTH. The only time I look things up is when I feel I’ve forgotten something, or to help keep track of an npc questline. Sort of like “keeping the ball rolling”
@@captncuddlybear9404 yeah, it sucks that I already knew what the 2nd phase of the god eating serpent was. Still an epic fight, but I’d have definitely enjoyed the surprise
This is a weird anecdote. Your friends lost interest in the game because they looked stuff up, not because they cheesed. It’s weird and hardly relevant to mention. Plus it feels like you’re implying you can’t find cheese entirely on accident.
Aside from specific gates in Sekiro, FromSoftware games have always given you two paths: play better or prepare more. You can chip away at the Taurus Demon or you can look for a ladder. You can wait for moonlight butterfly to land or you can come in with some firebombs. You can nail the Orphan of Kos perfectly one time, or you can dive into Fetid Rotten Cursed Chalices so that the gems there give you a little wiggle room so you don't have to be perfect.
The caveat I have is, in previous games this was a byproduct of effort; of grinding. In Elden Ring, the devs wanted to reward exploration. The only people I have a little sadness for are the ones b-lining to a collection of gamebreaking items using wikis and reddit guides, when they haven't done a normal playthrough and just found the items before by wandering around. I don't even mind folks looking up dungeon locations. I've definitely done it for completionist sake. But don't go looking outside the game for a way to break a game that you don't even know yet. Reward yourself with transcendence by being so familiar with this world that you figure it out for yourself.
Alot if people dont know what the term "cheese" actually means in the first place, the term is supposed to imply that you took advantage of an unintended exploit in the game. Not just using something that is Meta or OP.
Would you say then that using Hoarfrost Stomp or the Sword of Night and Flame or the Mimic was cheesing? We know them being so good was unintended as FR nerfed it
@@Alquasar Them being nerfed due to being too strong is not cheesing. How is this any different than DS3 weapon adjustments or balance adjustments from other games? Just because you used Aatrox when he had a general WR of 58% with a 10% pickrate doesn't mean you're cheesing the game - you used something that is too strong at that specific time.
@@DarkKerialstraz of course but it's a bad example atrox was fairly strong now lets talk about kassadin on s3.... that was cheaseing league of legends
Just want to point out that "cheese" can mean many different things. A common meaning is using a brain-dead strategy or OP weapons. I think it came from spamming moves in fighting games.
Yeah I thought the definition he gave was weird. The whole not engaging with the mechanics thing. If I bum rush a hollow and spam him into the ground before he can swing, did I cheese him? I didn’t “engage with his mechanics” but I also “engaged with the mechanic” of stagger so…
There’s been bosses that I’ve beaten by putting them down before a certain move or phase change. That was my strat. It was a DPS race. I found a way to burst them down or prayed to RNGesus in order to avoid a move I found to be too difficult to avoid. Is that a legitimate strat? Or did I cheese because I didn’t engage with that particular move when I fought him? I get that the point was mostly referring to beaming the boss with sorcery and not seeing a single thing they did, but it’s still weird
Your redefinition to defend your argument is absolutely mind blowing.
As a long time Destiny player, I am well acquainted with cheese. Cheesing is standing outside of a fog gate shooting a boss with arrows. Using gameplay mechanics isn’t cheese, it may be abusing an overtuned combo-Ie comet azure inf. Fp.
Most of this isn’t real cheese, souls games have always given us crap to blow up boss ho bars. Imo calling it cheese isn’t solving the problem, but adding to it.
The problem is with the definitions of what “cheese” is. I see people saying that using easy tactics or high reward low risk tactics is also considered cheesing. But I don’t personally agree with that. And that’s the issue.
If we can’t agree on ALL parts of a definitions, the only way to have a common ground for discussion is setting a more objective definition. At least from what I’ve seen only, almost everyone considers using exploits or bugs or unintended interactions “cheesing”. Anything past this gets too subjective to have a proper debate over, since what you feel is “easy and low risk” might not be the same for someone else. Or it might not even work in some situations, eg bossfights with phase transitions, or bossfights with multiple opponents, or bossfights with very fast bosses that like to rush you. These are very difficult to pull off the azure combo in and require multiple attemps to get the timing and AI behaviour right.
Yeah I always viewed cheesing as using unintended ways to beat bosses that aren't necessarily cheating like glitches, exploits or aggro an enemy and retreating to a point they can't attack you type of thing. Not intended game mechanics being used to win a fight. Like being over-leveled and not allowing a boss to get a move in I personally wouldn't consider cheesing.
Good point.
Agreed - beating a boss with the tools provided is not cheesing.
Ds2 dragonrider fight is the perfect example for cheese, why would anyone not cheese him after they figure out you can bait him off the arena? He isnt even a unique boss.
Very good point. While watching this video I was at one point saying to the screen "But that's not what cheesing is." I am firmly in the camp of if it's not a bug/exploit its not cheesing. It feels weird to say we need to discuss semantics before discussing our video games but, sometimes we kinda do.
"It's okay if different people value experiences differently." - Yes, exactly. The only way to "play a Souls game wrong" is if you listen to the kind of people FightingCowboy is mad at, and deny yourself what would be most fun for you in the name of peer pressure. All victories are legitimate, all ways to play are legitimate.
Nods in agreement.
The only caveat I'd give here is that sometimes people don't know what they want. They can optimize the fun out of the game due to compulsively seeking short-term gains.
Sometimes it's best that a game forces you into a playstyle that you wouldn't otherwise do or immediately enjoy, because the devs think said playstyle will create the best experience. Sekiro is the best example of this.
Since ER doesn't do this, it can be easy to think all styles will be equally rewarding. But I'd argue that cheesing loses a lot of its satisfaction after the novelty wears off.
Nah there’s a bunch of stupid weapons that are not legitimate
While I agree with your sentiment I believe you may have missed the point.
@@batrachian149 @Batra Chian I can both agree and disagree with you on this. In ER, you're meant to play your way, and that's the intended experience.
It's true that maybe overleveling your character, or doing a busted arcane build with Swarm of Flies spam and a Mimic Tear may not end up being equally rewarding as a "standard" experience. You won't get to interact with the game in the same way, because you won't be forced to. You won't have to learn all the mechanics, if you can overpower everything with minimal effort.
However, for some people, the OP experience may be more valuable, than the "god gamer perserverence" souls community preaches. In the end its just a video game, a role playing game. Some people want to feel like a god or a force of nature to roleplay something that befits the title of Elden Lord, and that fantasy is more valuable than wrangling with the game "the right way".
As far as the “intended experience” goes in this game… i actually feel that those of you who ignored the spirit ashes entirely have kinda missed out. I mean, if you don’t use them your first time through, when will you use them, AFTER you’ve figured out how to level 1 the game? Not likely, and unless you engage with that system you might miss the sweet father/daughter relationship that blooms with Hewg and Roderika. I mean, if they tied an npc storyline to using the things, clearly they want everyone to use them, not just new players.
edit: well jeez... this kinda blew up. i think some people misunderstood me. you don’t have to use these to see the story between these two, but you are just unlikely to see it if you never interact with roderika after getting her setup (it’s kinda hard to miss doing that). my point was to at least TRY the new mechanic, if you don’t like it, fine. but to just ignore it outright seems like a bit of a loss for me. (also, there are a few small quests in the game that require your spirits...)
I agree. I think people are just struggling with the idea that this game might be easier than previous games. They didn't simply fail to notice that every build is OP except the ones where you intentionally avoid using tools you could easily use. If using the stuff the game throws at you and exploring the areas visible on your map makes you overpowered then basically the game is just easier.
The thing is there's a big difference between not using them for bosses and not using them at all. You can use summons to deal with large groups of enemies and stuff like that while still solo-ing bosses. And to me that makes sense. Summons make dealing with ganks more manageable. But in a 1 on 1 boss fight, summons just break the boss AI. That's the thing. Bosses are mostly not equipped to deal with multiple targets (unless it's a gank boss).
@@MarkHogan994 The fact that spirit summoning enabled areas are hand placed means they had to know you'd use them there...because they put one there for you.
I did the quest line, didn’t use summons until ng+ (and melania because I didn’t enjoy her, but I at least tried without first until I found out she had a full health bar second phase). No regrets.
Already did spirit summons felt way more crappy then my current no summons and every enemy fell was my own work not some ai with the ability to carry me if you want to use ai more power to you but could most of the people stop having bosses nerfed radahn feels like a cake walk now the falling star beast used to be a tank now i just breeze through him game just feels like its losing the challenge it should hold
I like how you define cheesing as “not engaging with the boss” rather than “using OP tools”.
Using op tool is also cheesing
@@Sohelanthropus that’s wrong, be definition it’s using game mechanics/items in an unintended way.
Until we can prove developers intent, we can’t prove cheese
@@seanslaysean7097 cheese means you bypassed core mechanics
@@Sohelanthropus
So then using OP tools should not be considered cheesing then.
OP tools are part of the core mechanics.
@@davidnewhart2533 nope, ain't gonna have this discussion buddy
Very well put my friend. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thoroughly enjoyed hearing someone say what I've been thinking in such a succinct way.
the problem is that in elden ring, having the best possible experience that we advocate for (not "cheesing" the boss) requires you to intentionally play suboptimally, intentionally handicap yourself. "that build is too busted, bosses become a joke", "this summon is busted", "this spell is busted", etc, but ideally, these things should not be in conflict, the most optimal way to play should also be the most fun & valuable.
in elden ring, the optimal path to victory is to pull up to the boss with a busted build, use a summon to draw aggro, and wreck their shit. you can choose not to do this because the "fair fight" is what you're after, but as a player i find this hard to stomach. i want to play optimally and utilize every advantage at my disposal. to make matters worse, the bosses aren't really balanced for mano e mano "fair fights" like in Dark Souls 3, they do insane damage especially in the lategame, because they must accommodate the player's potential access to broken builds. there is no "hey im not using summons or magic i just want to fight with my sword like in Dark Souls 3, can you please rebalance all the bosses" button
unfortunately, if you say "no summons, no broken shit," at some point you have to arbitrarily draw a line, i.e. this spell is "too busted" but this one is "within acceptable parameters" based on subjective opinion. so if i have a fundamental problem with elden ring (which i love btw and i still think it might be the GOAT), its that in a way we've lost what sekiro exemplified in its boss fights. where it's purely on you to improve your fundamental knowledge of the game's combat mechanics, and learn the specific boss's moves, in order to win
Yep, and everything you just said is why elden ring is a giant smash success. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, it's probably my favorite in the series. But, I think we are at a tipping point, where, if they continue to push future games into an even more accessible difficulty range, we might lose the "soul" of the souls series.
Wouldn't it be a kind of beautifully ironic set of circumstances though? Dark souls, a series all about great kingdoms rotting, enters its golden age with the release of elden ring, only to slowly rot away with worse and worse releases afterward..
It's not the future I want, but damn, it would be poetic. All of us fans would slowly lose hope and become hollow.
@@cabbagedemon5944 yeah man I agree, I just had the thought about dark souls following the path of its own story and thought it was a cool idea. But, I believe that Miyazaki still has plenty of soul left to tend the flame. He'll keep putting out bangers for sure.
i also think it’s because there’s a big mindset on people thinking “Soulsborne is the hardest game series of all time!!!” So once they find out that the game isn’t really that hard, they get upset or smth. So they intentionally use the weakest/least effective build to get the “”””full”””” experience even if that’s not really the case. I cant blame them tho, cuz challenge runs exist for a reason and they’re great. I think al soulsborne players should try an SL1 build at least once. But that doesn’t mean other ways to play the game aren’t viable.
Playing like this is fine. The thing that sucks is having to watch you play like that. I watch elden ring vids as im sure we all do, when i have to see it its really boring to watch youtubers cheese a boss and give a sigh of relief at the end like they actually did something. All the youtubers using katana builds for bleed not cause its their fav weapon, thats also boring to watch. Makes me think i should upload. I use what i like and i fight head on, nobody else making that content they all doing the same thing.
Players always optimize the fun out of anything, myself included. The point isn't that they should make things easier to optimize the fun out of the game but make everything viable so that we're not able to "optimize" the fun out of actually experiencing the game.
Imo cheesing would be something like throwing firebombs over capra demon’s wall or going around Mohg’s bossfog to prevent his ai from doing anything for a free kill, an oversight that clearly isn’t intended by the devs. Nuking a boss with a completely intentional strategy/weapon/spell sure is kinda lacklustre but in isolation isn’t cheese, just a product of questionable balance and design.
You wanna argue that some of it is overtuned snd should be toned down to something more reasonable? Sure, infact I agree in many cases (with the sole exceptions being bosses or encounters I hate fighting normally due to being unfun or outright bad or something) to make for more exciting and engaging gameplay, but i don’t really consider it cheese unless it takes advantage if some oversight or exploit in the design, which honestly I guess is kinda what’s already happening with how busted some stuff is currently so moot point
I agree completely I thought the exact same thing! Under Ratatoskr's definition for example it'd be called cheesing to use a Phoenix Down in FF to instakill an undead boss. If your definition of cheesing is to circumvent the boss fight that's fine, but I don't think I had ever heard people use the term for stuff like that. It can get a bit ridiculous too; is sniping Bowser from a safe distance with a fire flower in SMB1 cheesing since you didn't engage with any of his hammer or jumping mechanics?
what's the difference between fighting a boss that cant fight back and fighting a boss that cant fight back?
One of them includes Comet Azur.
; )
I agree.
Using intended game mechanics isn't cheesing anything.
It's more like people who refuse to summon or use spells etc are reverse cheesing lol
they are deliberately making the game harder
it boils down to a difference in definition, in my eyes cheese is circumventing the intended design or mechanics of a fight. which in the case of the souls series, i would argue is to learn an enemy's moveset, and beat it by blocking or rolling its attacks, and landing in hits when the timing is right
so to me, the things he listed in the video were all cheese, since in using them you don't really need to engage with the mechanics of fighting an enemy. but that's just the way i define it, yknow?
i consider comet azur flask combo, completely cheesing. the mohg bossfog skip, and throwing firebombs over capra's wall, aren't cheesing, they are glitching/cheating. it's the same thing with speedrunners abusing the framskipping, and wrong teleports. thats not cheesing, it's glitching. it's you using errors, or oversights, in the creation of the game, to break the rules the game establishes. i consider cheesing, to essentially be, glitching, without the glitch. comet azur, mimic blood builds, pre-nerf sonaf, i consider those cheesing. i don't care whether other people use them or not, that's up to them, if they enjoy it, good for them. using glitches/exploits, i consider bad faith, as it is, by any metric, literally cheating. those, i consider illegitimate, because they are. comet azur, while cheesing, is a completely legitimate way to kill a boss. which to make clear, that is my defining factor, for cheese, versus cheat. cheesing is using the rules to your advantage, to trivialise, and in some cases, completely avoid, the difficulty/trial, you wish to avoid/trivialise. and i see no issue with it. i personally find it less enjoyable, but like ratatoskr, that's my opinion. cheating/glitching/exploiting, is breaking the rules, or using flaws in the system, to go against the rules, to win. people who use them, and claim to have "accomplished" something, i consider idiots, and liars. speedrunners, within said category, obviously exempted, as the whole purpose of a speedrun, is speed. essentially, if you use the rules of the game to your advantage, you may be cheesing, but some people like to have cheese. but if you break the rules, and go against them to win, well, no one likes a cheater.
If we want to have a conversation about "Does using these items cheapen your experience?" that seems like a better foundation for this conversation. It feels like most of the hardcore fans of the series, are really meaning to ask this question but get stuck on the word cheese instead.
Cheese is not using things in an intended way (imo I guess).
I thought "cheese" actually meant trying to break the bosses' AI in order to hit them and them not being able to hitback. Having overpowered gear isn't cheesing, but rather it is playing smartly.
@@OmegaF77 cheesing a boss in itself is smart. The two are not exclusive
Another way of considering this aspect is that if FromSoftware didn't want you to access the abilities /weapons etc, then areas where these are would be gated more seriously than they are now.
In some cases I can see the op cheese method as losing an aspect of the game, but in others "one persons cheese, is another persons tactic "
I am tending towards archery, if I can find a sniper location so I don't get one shot, is that cheesing?
I would say your definition of cheesing is incorrect, cheesing is to go out your way to do things that the developers did not intend.
Examples for this would be jumping over the wall for the Mohg fight stopping his Ai from starting, Killing Capra in DS1 with firebombs over the boss wall, killing Big Ornstein by making him clip out of the arena and fall to his death, Poop walking to stop boss Ai activating etc. Another name for cheesing is exploiting, but it is only generally referred to this when it comes to using cheese in a PVP environment.
Using things the developer intended the players to use thus cannot be cheese, they are simply efficient tactics available to the player, whether you want to argue they trivialize the game is another matter.
Personally, I think FromSoft have done a fantastic job of tailoring the difficulty experience for this game, There are so many tools available to the player, they can choose to engage with many or as little aspects they want to have the difficulty experience they want from the game.
Exploits/glitches are not necesarily the same as cheesing in my book. Bringing a friend RL300 to give you a+10 sword of night and flame and 500k runes at level 1 would not be cheesy by your definition. Even worse, creating a twink (a twink is a low level char with end game gear a friend gave you) to abuse low level players in PVP would not be cheesing as well just an "efficient way to play" . Cheesers are making a huge deal about this topic because they are insecure about their playstyle.
Stray demon can get caught in a loop where he just smacks the ground with his staff over and over. With a bleed weapon you can easily beat him at 1st level. That's an example of Ratatoskr's definition of cheese
"Engaging with mechanics" is a pretty weird place to draw the line on what is and isn't considered "cheesing".
There are plenty of mechanics that can be easily avoided or entirely nullified with certain builds and playstyles.
Elden Ring especially has about 12 ways to skin a cat. Bloodborne and DS3 only really has summoning. Sekiro is basically git gud. Demons Souls you could just simply use magic
@@Budd631 hell, yeah
yeah this definition is wack, cheesing = glitching, not just skipping phases with raw dps.
If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label broad play-styles and strategies with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite.
Should I have respec'd my build to katana and dex when I fought the Crystalian bosses? 'Coz I was playing great hammers for my playthrough and those bosses couldn't do jack shit against my build and according to this youtuber - that's cheesing.
Cheesing is engaging with mechanics that are low risk high reward. Cheesing wouldn't be a problem if there were no PVP and also if people didn't use this game as a "gotgut badge". There are serious flaws in this game people just claim to be features. Like the extended buffer for inputs, the dodge on release and delayed sprint cause they share the same key...
The mechanics are set in a way dodgespam cheese is basically easy mode while everything else is triple the effort for half the rewards.
3:01 „using azure comet doesn’t mean that you didn’t beat it properly, but you didn’t beat it properly because you used azure comet“ is basically what he said lmao
I remember when darksouls was new, I didn't 'cheese' Ceaseless Discharge by luring him to the fog wall and hitting his fist a few times because the community wasn't sure if that was intentional or not.
"cheese" is an impossible thing to define. on my first playthrough i used the bleeding flail, didn't look anything up, and just played the game through. a lot of enemies and bosses are so weak to blood loss that i killed bosses in 15-20 seconds without seeing most of the bosses attacks. i went to all of the weapon upgrade caves so my weapon was always at a good level and just spammed light attacks. about 20-ish hours into the game i found the magic whetstone that allows you to put frost on your weapon.
i went from having an easy time with bosses to completely demolishing all endgame bosses without dying.
would some people call that cheese and that's not the intended way of beating the boss? yeah sure, but that's just the weapon i picked up and beat the game with.
personally, i think cheesing is doing something so unintended like clipping through walls, glitching past boss arenas, and bugging out bosses so they never aggro or move. no normal player is ever going to find these kinds of cheese without looking it up or one in a million occurances.
I don't see why awareness is necessary for it to be cheesing.
Okay, so you didn't know bleed was so strong when you decided you liked the flail.
So? It is what it is whether you knew it or not. Cheese doesn't turn to milk or yogurt when you can't see it. It's still cheese
@@MrFluffyWolf because by saying that your saying his play through wasn’t legitimate even though it was blind which is bs
@@MrFluffyWolf we get it ur good and you like big sword with no status effects but your opinion quite literally doesn’t matter
@@castanzofranzman2013 but here's the question. Does cheese equate to illegitimacy? No. It just equates to a different game experience? Which was you know, the entire point of this video. It's up to the player as to what types of experience they prefer really. Idk why we're re arguing the points already made in the video lol. Mr fluffy wolf isn't wrong to say the flail is cheese, but they didn't state that said cheese rendered voledae's game experience invalid or illegitimate. It just garners each of them a different experience of the game. Fluffy probably spent more time understanding boss mechanics and telegraphs for punishes while voledae used the bleed flail (eventually implementing frost) to out damage most bosses before their mechanics became a problem for them. Does this mean either experience is more valuable? Well that depends on your perspective really, but all he's saying is that Voledae unintentionally discovered and used a cheesy mechanic in the game. Which is true. But it doesn't mean that voledae's experience is rendered illegitimate in any way it just gave him a different experience in completing the game that Fluffy *perhaps* values less so on a personal level.
Pretty much this, if someone's natural playthrough leads them to what could be considered 'cheese' i dont think that devalues the experience or their enjoyment. If anything discovering something that may be cheese on your own can be quite enjoyable in itself. I agree that the best experience playing through for the first time is blind, but if that blind playthrough leads you to strategies that others call 'illegitimate' i dont think that's a fair call. Also - If i see a tough enemy near an elevator, the first thing im doing is trying to get him to fall in - thats why the elevators are there after all.
I think that nobody is born as the masochistic souls player type. Many of the cheesers of today, will be the challenge runners of tomorrow.
But cheesing Bed of Chaos definitely enhances the experience in my opinion.
I will never not cheese BoC.
Very good example. Ratatoskr is right but engaging with bosses' mechanics is not always always fun. And even when it is fun, melting a hard boss with a busted build can be fun too. Which alternative yields more value is subjective. I will always prefer to engage with the mechanics but some bosses deserve all the cheese in the world.
I've beaten Dark Souls probably 50 times with all sorts of builds. In exactly 1 of them have I ever not cheesed
usually there's value in not cheesing fights to fully engage with good enemy design, but with fights with bad design, there's value in using cheese to get it over with lol
I really appreciate the nuance and clarity of this video.
I totally agree with what you said, I also think the combo of your voice and the Majula ambient music is way to relaxing, had to watch the video twice cause it lulled me to sleep lol
I beat Malenia using Azur and the infinite MP flask. It seemed like an obvious solution the moment I saw how immobile she was in her second phase. Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it. I had never looked up a strategy video outlining the strat prior to using it, and who is to say that figuring out an easy way to do something is not proper gameplay? So was I cheesing or just using the tools the game provided? It seems ridiculous to me to not use spirit ashes or certain moves when From programmed these things into the game. Finding the Ashes in the game and trying them out and seeing what they did was something that felt rewarding as I explored the world. If I had subscribed to the idea that using Ashes is cheating then all those dungeons where the reward was a cool Spirit Ash would basically be a dungeon with no reward. As someone who has played a lot of fighting games, the people complaining about people cheesing sound just like the fighting game scrubs who will try to downplay your win by saying you were using a top tier or spamming moves that they have a personal issue with. The only thing I consider cheese in this game right now is setting up Carian Retaliation in PvP as winning any PvP encounter without having to interact with your opponent does not seem like it is in the spirit of From's design. Otherwise, I don't really care how someone kills a computer, and I see most of the people that do are doing so because they want to feel like they are somehow special for placing self imposed restrictions on themselves. I don't often see the people who do No Hit runs telling other players that they aren't true gamers because they can't go through the game without getting hit, and I think that that's because the people who do No Hit runs understand that the reward they get from doing so is intrinsic to them and how they like to play, and also that they are probably secure enough in themselves that they don't need to do that to feel like they are better than others.
"Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it"
This is an important thing I think people often forget. Not everything is based around active skill. Knowledge and planning go into things as well. Now looking up strategies and stuff can devalue this, but your experience in the fight is just as valid as someone who, through pure skill, no hit her. You used your knowledge of the fight and the game to come up with a plan to beat the fight, even if your fight required less reflexive skill it is still just as valid.
If you felt totally happy with that then yeah don't let other people take it away from you, especially since you found out yourself. Personally she was one of the few late game fights that I felt was fun enough to bash my head against a wall for hours without a mimic. The others I just got frustrated and used a summon after a while trying which did make me feel a bit ehh tbh.
@@RikiazGaming That was half the bosses in Demon's Souls.
I remember that i struggled through her first phase using the blastphamous blade, but on her second phase i killed her after the second try due to how immobile she was, thr difference in difficulty between different builds is a lot more than other games and that leads salty retards who dont like switching weapons cry about how good they were for beating the boss with an equally strong weapon that wasn’t optimal lol
Good job!
Fighting Cowboy is right, it really is that simple.
I personally find the greatest satisfaction from finding cheeses for bosses, but doing so myself, instead of looking methods up online
Finding interesting ways to make the challenges easier can be an enjoyable way to approach games. The victories can still feel satisfying as you may have had to work for them in other ways; exploring the world, building up your character, increasing your knowledge of the game... etc... An easier victory can be a reward for finding another solution and still feels better than difficulty options. Although I personally prefer to go in blind and like to see all of the mechanics for each boss at least once.
There's many ways to play, you can play under leveled with spirit summons and it can become as hard if not harder than playing leveled up with no summons. You can make the game what you want it, the difficulty is up to you and your play style. That's what's so good about this game. Not only is it a large game you can go through a play through completely different each time.
I get your point, but this really isn't true. To make a boss easier, if my options were to double my current levels or use a strong spirit, the spirit would be the clear choice basically every time. The reason is because, against most bosses, the simple act of taking aggro from the boss from time to time eliminates the lion's share the difficulty. What makes bosses in Souls games so challenging is they have this constant pressure (in some form or another) and part of the fight is learning when you can perform certain actions and when you can't. When another body take the distraction, the part that's hard is gone; all, or most, of the challenge on identifying those openings is gone.
@@hexthehardcorecasual who says the summons have to be strong. The choice is yours to choose your difficulty. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm on neither side of the argument. I am on the side of the fighting amongst people as I personally find people go at each other over meaningless nonsense quite entertaining.
Ahh love the Majula music
@@Veritech617 The summons have to be strong to lower the difficulty of the game significantly. The spirits are a difficulty slider. The stronger the spirit used, the easier the game. They are the game's difficulty slider in all but name.
@@hexthehardcorecasual Some who play no summon, no ash of war, no buffs other than emblems don't think that's the case, some might say emblems are OP. It's a dance and everything involved really adds up to how difficult the game is. The best thing is, is that you can play at your own pace, or set restrictions for yourself on a playthrough. Somewhere there is a purist who won't ride places or use fast travel. The game is what you make it, but obviously the harder you make it the bigger the accomplishments you make. The choice is yours.
Personally I'd say "cheesing" means doing something that you're not supposed to be able to do. Something unintended, like a glitch or purposefully making the boss get stuck in terrain so it won't move. I don't think using any of the game's intended mechanics should be considered "cheese".
yes, cheesing is like using dung pies from outside the door to kill capra demon in DS1. Using the game mechanics isn't cheesing its called playing the game, it is beating the game "organically".
Edit : The gentlemen below helped explain the meaning and understanding I am trying to explain as well.
End of Edit:
Ah. I understand you. I saw people defeating Radahn, using gravity... Making him fall. Same goes with the Fire Giant. Making it trip over itself and fall...
I do find that disgusting but it isn't their fault if the game is designed flawed in that way. If you do this on your first try, you lost value (experiences) as stated in this video.
You missed out on mechanics and gameplay and the spectacle of the boss.1
If you skip Radahn like that, you missed out on the Meteor Attack. If you skip the Fire Giant, you can't see the Volcano Eruption attack. So you'd lose value as well.
@@Asriel_Cypher You are equating "value" to "experience." You miss out on *experiences* when you cheese a boss. How much value comes from each experience is up to the individual to decide. You can't claim that people "lost value" because you don't know what they value.
*THAT* is the crux of the argument: an experience does not have intrinsic value. Each and every experience is subjective. There is no value to be lost or gained from an experience unless the individual views things that way. Any outsider perspective is pre-judging the situation based on their own biases.
Calling the "loss of an experience" as the "loss of value" is conflating two different ideas to cover for prejudice.
@@Ortorin
Precisely! Thank you for highlighting the Value part of it. I had trouble explaining that. I appreciate that.
agree, like the fire giant cheese where he falls and dies. which is my FAVORITE THING EVER! so funny!
I started as a wretch off of your recommendation and honestly it’s been the most fun. Seeing my character, and by comparison my friends, start with in my case a diaper and club to now being able to sling blood and summon raining death is incredibly satisfying. You feel the power curve and see it if you ever start a second character. Well thought out opinion man.
Love the content. I appreciate how measured your approach is to these debates
I respect where you're coming from, just like I'm sure you will for me, but yeah to me cheesing bosses the first time through is more rewarding. It's one of the reasons I don't want these games to get an easy mode too, I like working to achieve my own easy mode, and having this perception of "It's the game versus me, and I'll do all I possibly can to cheese the fuck out of it". There's a high sense of joy and smugness in trivializing the games encounters, and it's something that to me only the Souls games really enable.
I can then still go in afterwards and do challenge runs to experience the game in a more normal way, and get the joy of overcoming difficulty through my own efforts. But that first playthrough is the only one where I can really feel that sense of childlike joy of completely destroying a game I barely know how to play.
I agree. Souls games are heralded as these tough games which is why I love when my builds destroy the games difficulty
Yeah that playstyle sounds fun assuming you don't look stuff up. I don't really see the point of looking up a "THIS WEAPON + ASH OF WAR COMBO IS OP" video on CZcams and copying that.
Different strokes for different folks. Ive always enjoyed the feeling of getting better by fighting something beyond me, with sekiro as a great example. There is ofc some cheese in sekiro, but most of it extends into "advanced cheese" territory instead of just having an optimized build.
I'd argue that there's value in finding OP or cheese startegies on your own. My first run was with a mage and I found Comet Azur on my own. I dedicated all my level ups to being able to cast it and felt such a joy to finally use it and see my character become more powerful destroying bosses.
I agree that looking up builds on YT for your first run is just ruining the experience.
This! In single player, many gamers enjoy finding min-max strategies on their own and seeing it play out as planned. And the replay value comes out of finding new overpowered mechanics. I believe FS really understands this. "Cheating" or "cheesing" for me personally is, if I just look these overpowered things up, and don't find them myself. I do however like to check within the community afterwards!, if the thing I found is rather unique or very obvious. And if it's too easy or obvious to find i tend to drop it after two bosses and look for something new.
This is my biggest point and only thing I really disagree with Ratatoskr on. I don't think making a powerful mage build, and using the best spells is cheesing it. Sure some bosses might be easier to deal with, but others won't be. Just like if someone runs a pure bleed build and has an easy time with Malenia since she's really weak to it, I wouldn't say they cheesed it either. I can absolutely see the argument because some bosses get stunlocked thru the infinite FP flask+comet azure, but those are just widely available for anyone to use and if certain bosses are easy because you are a mage build, that's fine. Some bosses are undoubtedly harder and in general exploring the world is harder when you are resource bound, vs just Greatsword poking everything to death with 15 healing flasks at your disposal.
Other than that, I agree with mostly everything else he said, although I personally don't have anything against looking up ways to beat bosses. Cheesing in my definition is going out of your way to break AI or abuse unintended mechanics to kill something. Making a boss fall to their death, or get stuck indefinitely is cheesing it. Using spirit summons or even summoning a friend and having them tank it with a great shield or something, is not cheesing it in the least. If you look up a way to dodge a certain attack by a boss or something like that, I don't think you are cheesing it. I do think the Carian Retaliation bug is cheesing it because, using common sense, there is no way FROMSOFT intended the spell parry to do like 3K damage off your own spells. On a +0 shield it does 500 damage, and I'm pretty sure they intended it to not scale with weapon upgrades at all since literally no ash of war does 500 damage at +0. At best I can imagine it doing damage based on the damage you would've received, but that's not how it works even now.
Same here but different, as soon as I found the fingerprint greatsheild I knew I got something good, i fully upgraded it, paired it with the greatsheild talisman and a good spear and found it quite efficient, yet most people consider it a cheese because the free blocking is so good against most bosses and hard to counter in pvp.
@@GriFFonRec4 i mean tbh if you can't figure out a boss on your own, maybe come back later with more levels. but i find it absurd that you'd look it up online
Even telling people how to play by only going in blind is a bit of gatekeeping. People enjoy games in different ways. If they see some weird, off-beat build that makes them want to play the game that way more power to them.
I'm not playing this game more than once so I'm definitely looking shit up because how the fuck else am I supposed to figure out that I have to talk to a doll 3 times at a specific bonfire
Very well said! I very much agree with you friend, and I really appreciated the calm and accepting sentiment underpinning your points.
For each person playing these games there's a different way to do it that feels best for them. I've been fighting a certain boss over the course of four days, for a couple hours each evening after work. I fought the 1st phase on my own, and the 2nd phase with Ashen summon. I am certain that I could've beat it on my own all the way through with enough time. But the feeling of accomplishment and pure joy I felt when I finally beat it was absolutely amazing. My roommate heard me shouting and started playing "We are the Champions" when I left my room. And just like I decided to at least beat phase 1 one my own and felt good about my accomplishment, there will be people who found a much easier (cheesier) method, felt like a god while doing it and enjoyed that just as much. Just in a different way. As long as you come out of this game feeling good for having played it, there's nothing wrong about the way you did.
Yea I had to come to terms with myself cus people said I was playing on easy mode cus I mained a mage my first ply through. I’d never played a souls game so sorry if I wanted to start off with an easier play style. But by the time I got to the end game I was getting damn near one shot so it’s really give and take. Some bosses are super easy with a mage and some are almost impossible. Regardless I still enjoyed every minute of my mage build
@@317NEETz Exactly what I'm talking about. As long as you had a good time, it's all good. I think the main point of this video is that some people run the risk of ruining their experience by choosing options that ultimately bore them. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game, as the quote goes
@@317NEETz mage isnt necessarely easy. I find that str end vig monsters are easier. I often get one shot with my mage but my tank is much more forgiving
This is me with Melania and Margitt, other's were cheesed or I was too overleveled and ended up watching my ash summons fighting them which is to me a fun thing to do.
@Ben Ten I think his issue, that he was addressing in this video, is with people who cheese because they can and therefore think they have to, but ultimately bore themselves in the process and think less of the game as the result. Which is something else entirely than cheesing because you enjoy feeling like a god and having fun doing it.
4:40 So, the question is then, does the Hidden Cerulean Tear exist within that narrow band? I suspect there are things that they haven't patched yet, that they intend to patch, but I think it's worth noting that they _buffed_ sorcery in the balance patch, specifically by reducing the FP cost of many spells, and even raising the damage on some spells. If they were looking at sorcery, why didn't they do something about this combination, unless they thought it was a problem in some way? It seems too obvious not to reach the conclusion that that is how it would be used. In fact, the Hidden Cerulean Tear's overall design _suggests_ that exact usage, a short-burst channel of high-damage spells. Otherwise, what other function could it possibly have that isn't outshined by literally any other option you could have in your flask?
I actually think that certain things like that combination are at the core of their design philosophy. In the original Dark Souls, a fully upgraded pyro flame, bellowing dragoncrest ring, crown of dusk, and power within, would mean you could two-shot Gwyn with great chaos fireball, because he's already very weak to GCFB, really, fire damage in general. If I exploit that particular weakness of the boss in that way, am I not making use of the game's mechanics, and one of _his_ mechanics specifically, tuning my build to exploit one of his vulnerabilities? If that is cheese, or, if that is cheese and cheese is not part of From Software's intended design, then I also have to ask about _parrying_ Gwyn, because most seem to view parrying Gwyn as the 'cheese strat' for beating him, yet even now, I suspect few would call it cheese, or call it cheese in comparison to CA and infinite FP.
A large part of the fun of these games, a large part of playing these games, seems to be figuring out how the mechanics, broadly, actually function, and finding ways to make those mechanics work for you to solve the problems you come across, and those solutions aren't always obvious. . . even in the case of CA and infinite FP, that is a poor option for quite a few bosses. It's great against medium/largish bosses that are vulnerable to hit-stun, like Mohg, but don't even try it against humanoid bosses who jump around a lot, like Malenia. Is it still cheese if you found an optimal strategy _because_ you learned a boss's mechanics, including their strengths and weaknesses, as opposed to just their moveset and timings? One of my earliest kills on Godrick, was me doing a few 'dry runs' to test what elements he was most vulnerable too. As it turns out, it basically didn't matter because he didn't have any significant vulnerabilities, and had one big strong resistance, so I just went with the highest damage-per-second-per-cast-per-FP incantations, and sure enough, on my 'serious' run, I thrashed him. Did I cheese him because I stood back and blasted him? If that _is_ cheesing, then are we making any kind of meaningful distinction with how we're using that word, or is it just starting to turn into 'any time you stand some distance from the boss and blast them with high-damage ranged attacks?'
Bosses have weaknesses, and I'm disinclined to say that finding the strongest means of exploiting those weaknesses is necessarily circumventing or not engaging with the mechanics of the boss, at least, not in a way that isn't intended, or considered. It's not going to be often that sorcerer builds, for example, are going to stagger bosses. They're also not going to be making use of spacing or unlocking and attacking to target specific vital or weak areas, typically. On the other hand, some melee builds might have a very difficult time indeed targeting vulnerable spots that ranged characters can easily attack. A melee character might also not be as well-equipped to take advantages of other mechanics, like certain enemies' severe aversion to fire.
Interesting point and interesting video, so far.
I agree with this completely. At what point is ‘cheese’ a subjective term used by players to say ‘you didn’t do it my way and I’m going to act like I’m above for you for it.’ Something like 1/3 of the starting classes in the game are spells/incantation based. Look at the enormous variety of magic/weapon arts from soft had to personally design. To call those play styles less valuable is cringey and ego driven.
Spot on about the hidden cerulean tear. Soulsborne games have almost always included small “cheese potential” in their games which can be used to almost break enemy encounters, almost by design. There’s no other reason to use the tear unless you use a spell which takes up a lot of fp, and as such will deal huge amounts of damage (for an exceedingly large fp cost). Notable examples in DS1 are using plunge attack on taurus demon, the stairs in capra demon, or letting ceaseless discharge fall off the cliff. In DS2 you could change the arena itself for many bosses, there’s a lot of examples for further games too.
I think the reason why so many people get upset about this tho, or specifically intentional game design to make a boss easier (sometimes almost pitifully), is that they didn’t have either the resources or analytical skill to find out the easier way to beat them. Finding out that you can essentially one-shot ceaseless discharge would be very frustrating for someone who had to spend multiple tries on him. So to justify that, they probably think “well my way was legit, the other way was clearly not intentional”, even if it obviously was.
And yeah, that’s exactly right about the mastery of the games mechanics. I always thought of the soulsborne series as overcoming frustrating controls, confusing status screens and overwhelming item descriptions, and using the one or two occasional things to vastly help out your fight. If you take the time to read each item description, even if most of them seem useless to you, there will definitely be one which, using other knowledge of the games mechanics, can make fights much easier. That in itself is essentially you beating, or outsmarting, the boss. The feeling of discovering an intentional mechanic to make a boss easier is almost the same as solving a difficult puzzle. You take the time to analyze each section, and once you find a connection between 2 seemingly unrelated mechanics then you can start to solve the puzzle.
They "buffed" certain sorceries because it just made 0 sense to cast them when pebble exists. Fromsoftware making other sorceries viable doesn't mean they condone you blowing up a boss with infinite FP comet azur and claiming you beat it.
@@CTStyles31 That’s a ridiculous statement… we all know the reason why Fromsoft released that patch was because of the popular meta at the time, which is why things like SONAF, Moonveil, and hoarfrost stomp were nerfed. By that time the azur comet was really popular because it was relatively easy to perform. If they really thought it was broken they would’ve either nerfed the hidden tear or azur comet. Also how does that even make sense?? Why would fromsoft not “condone” you using the mechanics to the best of their ability? That’s like saying they wouldn’t condone you beating a boss on the first try, because of some bs reason like “oh you just got lucky” or “oh you just roll spammed”. It’s not good to project your opinions onto a corporation lol…
I was reading this then the video ended, looks like I got jebaited
Cheesing is riding torrent around commander O’Neil while he stands on a scarlet rot geyser
I agree and love that from has essentially answered the "should dark souls have an easy mode" question, but I think when commenting for strategies or discussing difficulties for boss, areas, etc.- people need to specify how they play.
Saying margit was push over when you used ashes, npc summon, and magic vs someone solo meleeing him- you are basically having entirely different conversations
Yes! thankyou.. its kinda pointless to argue about it.the general term cheesing is different for every player.
It's basically people who work smart vs people who work hard. "Cheesing" is finding a clever solution to solved the same problem someone else is doing through their hard work.
people might call it cheesing, but the second I found the cook book that makes poison darts they became my go-to strategy for just about everything, and I love it. so many times I would be fighting a boss and about to get smushed, thinking "oh shit, oh shit, not again" when that last tick of poison just barely takes them out and that feeling of victory is just like "WOOOH!
Doesn't sound all that cheesey to me....sounds like you had to do a bunch of dodging of the boss so it was still a tough fight
Sounds like me and the ole’ rotten stray. I’ll engage the boss long enough to draw their agro, while rot doggie bites them and inflicts rot. Once that takes hold, it’s then a waiting / dodging game.
I was literally able to beat Godrick on my first try with scarlet rot lol. I remember some dude telling me "You just ruined your playthrough", and the utter confusion on my part getting a response like that. Like bruh, you're telling me the devs gave players a tool they can use which ruins their own game, that certain bosses are weak to lol. Also, here's I look at it. The world of these games are supposed to be shitty and unfair to someone in it. So with that in mind, it's inevitable that it's going to cause players to be shitty and unfair to the enemies back.
If you dont play the game naked and kill the bosses with your bare fists... ya cheezin...
You're _playing_ the _game_
Cheesy. So cheesy.
The one big part of spirit summons I love is actually getting to feel like a necromancer summoning skeletons. It just adds that little bit of RP for me. Or someone playing a beast master with the beastial incantations using one of the animal summons. I think it makes it more fun. At the end of the day, the very period on the end of the sentence, the direction to which all roads lead is that this is a game meant to be fun.
“If this video hasn’t pissed you off, then im sure I’ll get to you in a different video”
Thats the hardest line i ever hearr😭😭😭
Nice analysis here. I think what's going on in the "talking past each other" debates, is that people have a hard time identifying what *their own values* are, and seeing those as coexisting with other peoples' values, which may be different. Those that explicitly gatekeep via the "legitimate skill" angle, have a bias toward mastery and challenge. Those that are totally okay cheesing a boss may instead value the type of "fun" that resourcefulness, exploits, and Doing Big Numbers provides for them. Magic the Gathering's game designers know this (see: Timmy, Johnny, Spike player archetypes). You can't force a cheese-lover into a combat-master if their values aren't there.
Framing your encouragement of learning a boss first (no cheese) as advice to help someone enjoy the game even more is good - but that context of values is necessary. Some people just want the big numbers, and if that's the optimum experience for them, at least we're still all having fun.
And this is all the more true for an rpg, especially an action jrpg at that which boasted being "even more rpg than any other rpg we made before"
People like what they like, as long as they aren't playing in a way they don't like, then all's fair, even what isn't fair still is as that's a responsibility of the devs not of the players(if you think the game is unbalanced, complain to from/bandai, don't go around bashing people who use more efficient strats and cheeses)
Now if they are NOT enjoying the game though m that's a different story, and that's when one should come in say "but did you know you can do this? Or have you tried instead doing that?" As often people don't even know what they actually like, for example, how often i've seen dex people never even try using a big highly-staggering weapon because they THOUGHT they didn't like being slow, and then suddenly become tank mains the moment they give it a proper try...
I'm a total cheesemonger, and I like to put it this way: I'd rather feel clever than gud.
@@Braindouchedotnet sure sure. I see people fighting the Glintstone Dragon and I’m like “...why??” I just sneaked up behind him, grabbed the Glintstone Key then rode off 😂 don’t think he even woke up!!
It has so much replay value, even if you explored the whole map once. Everytime when i start a new character i am excited about where i go first, wich weapon i get first and what i end up with. I like this freedom! Can't wait for the first randomizer mods.
And sometimes one side is flatly wrong. I will bet my *house* that at some point in development FromSoftware had a meeting, probably with Bandai, and their marketing people asked essentially how they could "cater to the masses" to generate higher sales, and they discussed the idea of a mechanic you could only use during the most difficult content that would make it considerably easier to clear. Although we can never prove it without the devs admitting it down the road, it's still an objective fact that Elden Ring's difficulty was downplayed, or at least made more modular so the player could have an easy mode without calling it "easy mode". And it absolutely started in a board room discussion centered around how they could be "cater to the masses". Not even the most gullible can deny this, only the willfully ignorant can.
I take the same approach I took in the Marines. Is the enemy defeated? Yes. Are you alive? Yes. Mission accomplished.
I have the argument in stealth games where if you accidentally screw up and have to kill everyone "If no one's left alive to tell what happened, it still counts as stealth"
you may think that, but your commander only asks the first question.
‘Rah.
Can you please tell me the bg ost at the first part of the video ? Should be nier no ?
I disagree with Comet Azure/Infinite FP flask being a "Cheese" mainly because even if it were to be nerfed it will still function the same. What I believe the definition of "Cheesing" is borderline cheeting, but not actually using any kind software to do so, and is more of getting the boss stuck in a specific spot that which the boss can longer fight back. Using something the game gives you like a powerful Ash of War/Spell is not "Cheesing" even if it makes fighting bosses much easier.
I think what you are describing is called exploiting, not cheesing. When you use unintended mechanics to beat a boss, I have always called that exploiting the game. To me, cheesing has always meant to find a creative way to avoid engaging with bosses or content; for example if a sorcerer build was to stay far away from a meele boss and shoot it until it dies, this is completely intended, but it falls under the definition I have always used for cheesing, because such a sorcerer would've found a creative way to kill the boss without having to engage with it, in the sense that it wasn't as challenging as it could've been because of the smart/ creative way that was used to defeat it. This is completely fine and there is nothing wrong with cheesing, I've cheesed bosses, I've defeated them 'normally', I've had fun with both ways of playing. Personally, I find it very fun to find ways to cheese a boss myself (rather than looking it up) but that's just me. In the end, this discussion seems to be more of a disagreement on definitions.
I think it’s great that Fromsoftware made this game more approachable. Did I melt commander Niall with comet azur? Hell yeah I did. Would I have been able to progress a story I’m obsessed with in a world I love if I hadn’t? Probably not. Im not a great player, but I love the world and the immersion - I need CZcams guides and cheese spells like comet to help me progress, and I don’t feel bad about it. Im still the Elden Lord.
…. I hope you misspelled Commander O’Neill , lol because I just spent my night beating him in the middle of a rot lake and the fact that there is another version of him terrifies me!
@@anthonyfluck620 uh… hate to break it to you
@@anthonyfluck620 There is another (yoda face)
@@anthonyfluck620 ill pray for you
@@anthonyfluck620 niall can be afflicted with scarlet rot, so if you keep aeonian butterflies you can make a couple pots and chuck them at him, then you just have to survive.
This game made me realize how awful part of the community is. There are some really helpful folks but I can’t help but think some people are compensating for something when they bully people, especially newcomers, into thinking that there’s something wrong with certain builds. Isn’t the point of an RPG to use the best items available in order to win?
According to his definition of cheesing; me just randomly coming in a Crystalian boss fight equipped with a great hammer and Ground Slam ash of war and just destroying those bosses with them barely even moving is cheesing. Maybe the joy I felt where my build just happened to be the perfect counter to the boss was illegitimate too; maybe I should've equipped some random katana and respec'd to Dex so I see them do some moves and get the "intended" experience for that fight. This youtuber can call it what he wants, but saying skipping mechanics is "cheesing" is also gatekeeping and he didn't have to make a 9 minute video just to say that he isn't a gatekeeper (coz' he fucking is). If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label certain playstyles with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite.
The point of an RPG is to roleplay a certain character. It could be an op tweaked mess or a complete wimp. Its not about maximising damage or finding the best stuff necessarily.
I feel you on this. RPGs deliberately push players to find better weapons, better armour, better abilities, to level up your stats and find better builds. Then after dozens of hours of improving your character you're supposed to "discipline yourself" and "show restraint" by stopping at an arbitrary point and refusing to use a specific weapon? If that's the case then it's a failure of game design, not the fault of the player.
@@CallMeBadong yea this is not cheesing. cheesing has always meant something like shooting arrows at dragon rider in ds2 while not being in his area so you can oneshot him later.
yes, they are overcompensating for something, Soulsborne bullying is the gaming equivalent of buying a ferrari, its called micro-penis syndrome. Anyone that chooses to bully, deride, rubbish or insult newcomers over how they choose to play A VIDEOGAME have serious personality issues they need to deal with.
Play it in whatever way makes you happy....YOU paid for it!
Not everyone is the same. I understand the enjoyment of beating an impossinly hard battle, but I also found myself against double bosses quite a lot. It didn't feel good, it felt like bullcrap. It made me angry and upset (i have emotional regulation issues) i did not want to fight against two bosses that covered eachothers openings, it was not fun. But against difficult single boss enemies yeah, I like to learn their moves and engage with their mechanics and be able to dodge through all their attacks. I've felt underwhelmed by godric and renala of the moon because I hit them too hard and they died too fast. I do want to be challenged, but sometimes the game just throws a bunch of nonsense I can't deal with at us. Like the boss enemy of town of sorcery. Two enemies with fast long range melee attacks, covering for eachothers weaknesses. The only way to beat them seemed to be upgrading the heck out of my weapons, it felt dirty
Yeah and you're entitled to your opinion, don't forget it's just an advice. I believe it can be worthwhile sticking to your intents to the end. But if you're that much frustrated sure, do what is necessary.
Didn't think I'd hear the soundtrack of The Beginner's Guide in a video about Souls games, but I'm here for it.
there isn't any room for shame for using the mimic tear. that is one of the most coolest things in this game. no amount of pride can amount to how sick it is, especially in gank fights.
You know, I've been thinking about this subject for the last few weeks as well, cheesemongers versus gitgudgang, and I've come to very different perspective on the whole thing. To me, one of the biggest distinguishing features of a souls game is the lack of rules and limitations on player choice: all that isn't strictly forbidden is permitted, and very little is strictly forbidden. At the heart of these games are a lot of sandbox and immersive sim dynamics, and I think Elden Ring is the apotheosis of this tendency.
What I find really interesting is that when the gitgudgang gets wound up, what they're literally saying is that the game doesn't have enough rules and limitations on how you play and then proceeds to make some up and try to convince people around them that they should hop on board. (which, i hasten to add, is very different from Ratatoskr's suggesting "don't be too clever, just hit the monster with the axe and fun will happen". ) I think this is a *fascinating* dynamic at play, that there's a large cohort of people who not only embrace this game difficulty-first but also are craving a more curated experience so hard they will invent one out of whole cloth and insist it's been there the entire time.
It's more than just "git gud", it's an unexamined expression of our expectations of what games should be, what these games are, what the nature of gamer entitlement is, and what happens when those expectations are implicitly violated. (And I really really want to see a conversation started around this subject!)
I think the problem just comes up when people try to impose their personal value system or ideas about how to enjoy the game on other people. Like, I'm one of those people who prefers to "git gud" and challenge bosses without relying on any additional mechanics outside of the base ones, but I think it'd be silly and foolish for me to assume that that's right for everyone. It's how I enjoy playing these games, and the reason why Sekiro is by far my favorite Souls game, because it's the one with the most clearly curated challenge, there was only one way to play through that game, and that allowed them to really refine the challenge to a razor sharp point. But we're not all the same and it's perfectly fine for anyone to enjoy themselves any way they see fit without any need to justify it to others. The "gid gud" folks who try to push their mentality around playing the game on others as if it's the only "true" way to play the games is either working off the false assumption (if we are to assume their motivations are pure) that their way is the best way for everyone to get a good experience and want to make sure others get that optimal experience, or they feel insecure and feel the need to justify their own mentality around the game by putting down others who don't conform to it. That's my take anyway. Just have fun and play how you want at the end of the day. It is a game, after all. People just take it a bit too seriously sometimes.
Agreed 100%.
These games are RPGs and we shouldn't forget about the R in RPG. Some people wanna roleplay a Wretch, some a Samurai, some a Mage Knight, etc.
Some characters will be OP, some will struggle. Hell, the whole point of archetypes, even just the basic Warrior, Mage and Rogue is to experience the same world in different ways. And even though a Mage and a Rogue can both be glass cannons, the _flavor_ is completely different. That's why so many people are into Fashion Souls and why cosmetics sell _better_ than hot cakes in online games.
Flavor matters. Some of us want to be the sneaky, underhanded bandit, some want to be the valiant paladin and some want to bend reality and nature's laws to their will. All valid ways to play the game and experience its world.
Good thing you can play the game however you want, so you literally chose how hard it will be. You are a gitgudder? Just use a sword, upgrade a bit the strength and you are good to go, beat every boss with pure melee skill. You wanna be a cheeser? Invest in inteligence/faith or in bleed. You want cool powers but also want melee power? Make a hybrid build let's say strength/faith. This game is so cool because you chose what you want to be and how you want to play the game, and the game enourmously changes depending on your decisions. It is beautiful.
I think one aspect you are not considering is that this game is part of a Franchise built by all the previous souls like games that have come before. The Git Gudders built their culture based off of their shared experiences from the previous games. The Git Gudders are the core fanbase that have supported FromSoft for a very long time. Imagine if you will the anime Gintama. There is a popstar that is extremely popular, but the people that had a very large hand in making her famous were the core otaku fanbase who do things any "normal" person would be embarassed to do in real life at these concerts. The GitGudders are similar. In the grand scheme of things their monetary contributions are basically nothing now. But back then, they kept the community alive and sometimes growing. They gave money to Fromsoft in a time where every dollar mattered more. One could argue that the GitGudders are largely a western group. But even then their roots go back to the original japanese gitgid fanbase.
There is a sense of ownership of what the game is and the experience it should give the players. It is an aspect that Miyazaki himself recognized when he thanked the fans and defended the "shared suffering" aspect of the difficulty of the game.
This sort of thinking is the same reason why Fans of long running franchises get angry every single time a post modern corporation takes a franchise like Star Wars or Star Trek and "reimagines" it while sliding in ill fitting woke ideology to replace and colonize the portions they removed as an insult to injury of the poor writing and lack of respect to the franchise as a whole.
I really wonder how DS1 would have been perceived had the rerelease of the game not been called the, “Prepare to Die” edition. People really get an ego boost from beating a game that seems to doubt them from the very beginning, so I suppose if others can do it with little to no difficulty, it feels as if delegitimizes one’s own victories putting a scratch on that Soul’s veteran badge of honor.
That’s one theory. I can personally attest that beating bosses in certain ways makes them boring and forgettable. During my first playthrough, I unwittingly skipped the Weeping Peninsula and didn’t check it out until I was on the Atlus Plateau. Everything was a breeze and I’m certain I missed some important things.
When it comes to looking things up I always try and tell people that you only get to play a game for your first time once
Another great analysis with Chrono Cross music in the background? Keep the great work up Ratatoskr!
I cannot say that I agree at all. I appreciate your intent of suggesting that no one look up anything on their first playthrough but that assumes a luxury of time to play not everyone shares. Some of us have lives. I can maybe put ten hours a week into Elden Ring. If I played your way I would still be on my first playthrough a year from now and I can guess that I would not be having a very good time anymore. Am I a casual now despite playing From Soft games for more than a decade? I am already familiar with the basic mechanics of their games and there is zero enjoyment in pretending that I am not.
Some things are simply too obscure (weapon upgrade materials, even post-patching) in a world that is too big. You say don't worry about game mechanics but do have to, at least a little. If I don't know where anything is then I have to pick a halfway decent weapon early on and upgrade it (say to +8). But then say I later find another weapon I want to use but now I cannot upgrade it past +6 because I used all my best smithing stones on the gear that got me to this point. So now I am forced to choose between proceeding through the game with my 'best/+8 weapon' that I have been using for weeks and weeks and am bored of or trying tougher areas with a new underpowered weapon that maybe I like more. And I honestly can't even tell if I like the new weapon more because it is so underpowered that I cannot fairly compare it to my old weapon. Does this sound like fun? Is this part of the intended mechanics of Elden Ring? Now rinse and repeat that experience over again as your best weapon gets to +12 and then +18 and then +24. Or I can look up where to find the smithing shard bell bearings and get on with things. Or maybe I have a different idea of what is fun in these games.
The inescapable truth is that cheese is in the eye of the beholder and there will never be a consensus on what is cheese and what is not. Gatekeeping a game/band/book/movie franchise/sports team is a prerogative of callow youth (or a matter of insecurity and immaturity for those of us who are not youthful anymore) and should be regarded as nothing more or less.
Whats wrong with a game lasting a long time? Not like there are that many good games waiting to be played
@@petercottantail7850 some people have other things to do besides gaming, try fighting the same battle over and over again for days or weeks because you can only play for one hour a day.
I like the video, arguments well made! I think I totally agree. Generally I think you should avoid cheesing bosses, but I would say that if you discover an overpowered tactic yourself, there is a satisfaction towards using the thing you discovered, even if it is cheesy.
Do you think the inverse is true, that if "you only have underpowered tactics", that you should seek help?
I feel like I have a lot of patience for it, but I don't want to beat my face at a boss for many hours.
I was about the say the exact same thing.
I'm sure this isn't the right way to say it, but there's a difference between being inventive, and blindlessly following the creator.
One made the effort to discover, or was lucky enough. The other simply followed, without having the full grasp of things, and then proclaim this is the way to play.
I do commend thought the ones that takes the concept and bring it to a higher level, optimising it. THAT, is contributing
@@Venoseth If you can't beat a boss after many hours then it means you're mechanically unskilled. Or the boss is broken in which case pretty much no can beat it. If you're unskilled it'd be far more rewarding to improve instead of finding the most overpowered weapon
@@Artaxerxes. ya, but they can play more and get better and maybe attempt those bosses in a more challenging way on another playthrough. Souls games always had some way to cheese bosses. People choose not to do it that way because it's not as fun.
@@Artaxerxes. i’d counter that it’s less being unskilled as in time anyone can beat any boss. But of course, some people may not have the patience to learn if it may take them many hours to do so.
Using tactics to make the fight easier like summoning or bleed spam a la swarm of flies and rivers of blood is also legitimate in this sense. Sometimes, people just want to put a boss behind them to continue. And that’s okay. (Note: I personally never summon for the tough ones, but my best friend has little to no time nowadays with a busy work schedule and isn’t as “skilled” in souls games as me and this is their feedback.
This is all there is to it: if you are having fun playing the game and you aren't ruining anyone else's fun, then it doesn't matter how you play, don't listen to anyone trying to put you down for it. Now suggesting someone to play a certain way is fine as long as you aren't being rude about it, and you shouldn't get mad at people making suggestions based on their experience either as long as they aren't being rude about it.
A shinobi should know the difference between honor and victory.
-genichiro
I 100 agree with Fighting Cowboy. Sorry. I've never heard someone tell me when a I'm using a hammer to pound in a nail that I'm "cheesing" the experience. Imo, "cheesing" is doing something like getting an enemy stuck in terrain or otherwise exploiting the game in a way where there is literally zero risk. Even if you use a tool given to you by the devs that might make an encounter more trivial there is still some amount of risk.
No no no hammer is intended experience. Put down the nail gun and come use this hammer.
Oh it's a sledgehammer by the way. Git gud.
Using a hammer to pound in a nail is just using the right tool for the job though? cheesing can be making something ridiculously easy by using much stronger, much less skillful tactics etc. At the end of the day, you can play how you want, but I think it will be cheesing a boss if you do things like that - it's hard to make a better comparison with something as small as hammering a nail in tho imo
I totally agree with the going in blind philosophy, but my perspective on what makes something OP has changed a lot over the years of playing, and replaying souls games; and I've come to the conclusion that the player who plays a magic build and explores adequately to find the broken stuff on their own is no different than the strength build who uses a lightning zweihander, or an OP bleed weapon.
Plus i think it's unlikely that a first time player going in blind will find all the OP things they need to break these games anyway; even if they do they don't know enough about the layout of level or the enemies themselves to use it optimally
Yep, I think blind should legit be fine to cheese. I’ll call it cheese but it’s still legitimate on first play through.
Only thing though is that the things you mentioned are like pea-shooters in this game. They might have been significant in the other games that they made everything 25% easier (which was a lot), but they pale in comparison with stuff like pre patch Royal Knight Resolve + sword of night and flame that could do like 7k damage with a single cast, or hoarfrost stomp.
Exactly as he said in the video, some people actually make a point of always using the most OP stuff and when that gets nerfed it's like someone broke their legs all of a sudden, they have no idea how they are supposed to advance, which is really sad.
That blind shit should only be for bosses tho. After dying to the 50th ambush in ds2 I said fuck that and looked up a guide lmao
@@Leonhart_93 yeah I agree with you. My statement was assuming a blind playthrough, and it i is unfortunate that truly busted things don't get caught until most people are already playing.
Also, (maybe I should've said this first) my experience is almost entirely solo, offline with all these games, so I am speaking from a purely PVE perspective;
🤷♂️ blind spots
@@ameshizen381
Yeah, I kind of agree.
On two separate occasions in DS1, I tried to do a Paladin style character. One was completely blind without looking up anything. Because of it, I didn't know how to get into the SunBro covenant, and I couldn't get Lightning spear. I didn't know how to find Gwyndolin normally yet, and killing Gwynevere went against the ideals of a paladin. So the run ended up just being a warrior who occasionally heals or uses Homeward.
Next time, I looked up some things on the Wiki, and had a lot better time for it.
my girlfriend has never played a souls game. Using her summons she’s able to clear bosses in 5-10 tried and some in as little as 2-3. This game is seriously the most accessible game From Soft has ever put out and I couldn’t be more happy
I dont mind people cheesing a boss if they got stuff from the point of the gane they are in to do so, but its annoying when someone tells me how easy a boss was when they used late game summons and equipment to beat early game bosses
Okay, so in general, I think you're both correct. Before I watched the rest of the video, I thought about fighting Cowboy's opinion before I heard yours. For the most part I completely agree with him. I don't believe that FromSoft wants to create a specific difficulty that all players will feel. They want everyone to be given the same challenge, but how they handle the challenge is the point of RPGs. I don't want a difficulty setting in these games, but I want variety of playstyles, which inevitably means there will always be an infinite amount of builds and personalities that have completely unique experiences. As far as nerfing and buffing goes, there's nothing wrong with tweaking the numbers to be a little more fair and balanced, especially with PvP but also, though lesser, PvE. His point that resonates with me, is that FromSoft wants the player to have options, and I doubt that they are losing sleep at night knowing that some players are having an easier time. I agree with you about going in blind and not researching all the exploits to death, especially on a first play through, but eventfully people are going to try something that's a little broken, and I don't see why that should be a problem. Also I think having ash summons is great. There's nothing wrong with help because in real life there are often people who are willing to help, though not always and most of the time you can't summon so it balances imo.
That spell cowboy is talking about is trash in pvp buddy you literally stand still and point it in one spot can't even move the beam of magic all the enemy has to do is move. Some spells and builds are cheap but everyone uses the most annoying stuff like bleed which is completely utterly broken damage wise. In pvp I could get hit a couple times with bleed build and die cause of the massive amount of damage it can put out. Same with strength it can put out a lot in a few swings too. Also buffs stacking is kinda broken too. So.... Plenty of broken melee builds to speak of.
@@L4Disillusion I know. I'm using it in my NG+ and its broken, but there's always a few spells that are like that.
Except that they did say before the game's release in a post that they declined adding an "easy mode" since challenge is a big part of the experience they intend. Why do you think none of their games has a difficulty setting for that matter? Now I don't know if these broken OP mechanics are by design, some of them definitely don't seem to be since they fixed part of them.
@@Leonhart_93 it depends on just jow broken they are, mimic tear was, but it wasn't so strong as to be made pointless for example(i guess it went from the equivalent of having a rando carrying you to a friend playing evenly with you, but without them answering any question you might have)
After all, the player IS reward for investing tome or being clever, that's at the base of roleplay videogames, especially jrpgs.
@@Leonhart_93 I mentioned that
Explore the grey, practice empathy, listen closely, respond with compassion, speak honestly without attacking others. Play the game the way you enjoy the most, once you understand all of the options.
Loved the closing comments and requests.
What if I don't want to do those things?
@@moderatingmoderation1699 Chad response
@@moderatingmoderation1699
Well you can be as heartless as you want. Nobody can stop you, unless they block you. Good luck with that.
@@moderatingmoderation1699 you can do that but practically every philosopher and great person in history would disagree with you
@@Asriel_Cypher I mean being full of heart never got me anywhere, so heartless sounds pretty good. Lol
In my opinion, "cheesing" a boss is the reward for working smart. Players who cheese have already put the work in to be able to "cheese" the boss. It's not like you can cheese the boss right out of the gate without levelling up or actually earning Comet Azure and stuff.
People who say you must fight bosses "legitimately" or your not a manly-man sound like a construction worker headbutting the building to be demolished while FromSoft had already lent them a bulldozer for the job.
"Using tools provided don't count." It's like an old man using a screw driver talking shit on a guy with a dewalt, and then I'm supposed to sit here and agree with the old man.
It's not.
My monthly need of almost feeling alienated has not yet been filled. Great video Rata. See you next time.
If by "cheese" you mean "op builds that demolish bosses," I think it's acceptable if those builds aren't easy to discover as a new player by total accident. Most op stuff I'm aware of requires specific knowledge of item locations and a good bit of effort to get them, it balances out.
except 99% of Sword of night and flame users actually typed "how to be overpowered in elden ring" and went to kill the dragon in caelid and upgrade their weapon at RL1.
@@saucesriracha3763 No? It's pretty easy to stumble upon in game and is obviously really powerful (triple damage types, legendary aura, etc). Most people just found it and started using it after that
@@Asterius_101
czcams.com/video/AtKzLhgaRn0/video.html
@@Asterius_101 Yeah they probably got lost and instead of doing Margit they somehow got to Caria Manor and felt confident enough to explore the zone because this place is confy and easy not at all like Limgrave as we all know. Then they probably wandered around Caelid to get +8 weapon at RL1 because again, Margit is just so hard to find and Caelid actually means "heavens" in latin
I mean, comet azure and infinite mana are just... obvious.
I don't know why so many people are trying to accuse everyone who's done that of looking up a guide.
They're like two puzzle pieces that just fit together, you know?
If FS didn't intend for what is considered cheese to be in the game, they should have listened to feedback and patched them out entirely. It's not the customers fault for what a company intentionally or unintentionally puts in their product. Whether it's a weapon that one shots everything or no clipping to the final boss, it's ultimately up to the devs, not the player, to decide what stays and goes.
I think the most valuable moment i ever had is beating margit, i had only my samurai armor, a normal katana, some wolf summon and even with the help of that wizard it took my like 3 hours, and elden ring being my first souls game like just has to be some of the best moment i ever had in a videogame
Cowboy gets me all my items and secret locations in these games the guides are top notch
I say this as a SoulsBorne veteran who beat Inner Ishinn taking no damage: Elden Ring is hard. I powered through most of the bosses without using cheese strats, but some like Malenia and the final boss really stumped me to the point I caved and used OP stuff like Mimic Tear. However, like the other games, going through more playthroughs makes you better and better until you don't need to rely on crutch strategies. So don't feel bad about using them as long as you make sure to learn and try to get better.
I would be down to get better if the bosses didn’t feel like they were difficult to the point of not being fun -_-
IMO there’s way too much “cheap” difficulty. Like bosses having AoEs that punish you for perfect rolls. Or I mean straight up just too much damage despite having max vigor and heavy armor.
If rolling through an AoE doesn't work, run out when you see the wind up, nothing new to the Souls series. If you're really brave, try jumping
Malenia gave me so much salt that i tried everything just to beat her (except for summoning other people), but now ironically, she became my most enjoyable boss fight in the game to solo, i even made a separate character just to fight her daily (resetting when she's 1-2 hits away from dying). I think i have close to 30 hours of ingame time just fighting her. And then there's the godskin duo, f those guys
using summons isn’t cheesing. it’s literally an intended mechanic in the game. cheesing would’ve been fighting a glitched boss who can’t attack
True. on my first playthrough i also caved on some bosses and used mimic tear. on my second character i didn't and i got to see alot of boss mechanics and design that was completely crushed under overpowered strats on my first character. I got to experience the game design, see the actual boss movesets up close and personal, have more fun and feel like i actually beaten the challenge of the boss. I think at some point you have to try it the standard way to get the most fun out of the game. i honestly think a player that used op strats all the way through and never replayed the game missed out on alot.
I dont know much about this stuff. But Im currently using the Blasphemous Blade +10 and the ash of war on/weapon art on that is almost to easy for some enemies. Because it staggers them so hard. Is it considered Op? I dont know.
I think this is really good point especially the fact that he doesn’t take what cowboy says at face value and understands the meaning
I'm really just going repeating other people's points in the comments but I have a checkmark so it means I am legally required to just be terrible. I always felt cheesing was exploiting bugs something like getting around a section by glitching through a wall something like that. I don't mind if people feel like that is a narrow view but I always felt cheesing was slang for exploiting bugs or unintended things. Like recording a run with this would show something breaking. When I started playing for example sometimes the area would load in chunks I could see through the ground and enemies wouldn't load. It was early game when I had this bug but I just grabbed items when this happened till I fell through the non-existent ground. That's cheesing.
I didn't look up a guide for my run I just grinded a lot because number go up make happy. Obviously stuff will be patched buffed and nerfed because no amount of QA can account for the millions playing the game. At some point though that will stop. Every item weapon and spell will be in it's place, right now stuff may need a buff or a nerf but I just don't know if I'd call that cheesing. If you play in a way that blows away bosses maybe that's broken or maybe it's another method of play. Fromsoft will make that call really, I'm not totally married to that idea but it's where I'm at right now. I agree with going in blind. Visually I just wouldn't have wanted certain things to be shown to me on a youtube video, wish I never met the jar dude on a youtube video instead of playing and finding him. I just disagree with what cheesing is, maybe I am wrong though I didn't do a magic build at all. Maybe I'd have less fun if I did.
Outside of the discussion on like an intellectual level for fun I don't think I really care. It always makes me think of the adage about optimizing the fun out of a game. I used to work in game dev so we dealt with those questions, we worked and played in ways to basically try and ruin it for ourselves. So for me, it's really just a question of are you enjoying yourself? The internet has made everyone crazy. Every debate is something life and death, the taste makers of games journalists stick there nose up at people who enjoy these games it's a disaster. Ultimately I don't even know if I disagree with you, I'm kind of 50/50 but really were just talking about the definition of slang which a fluid anyway. I'd like to get past the debate on difficulty for these games it happens every release and holds up the fun discussions about what IS Elden Ring. What is the themes? what is this thing trying to say? Those things excite me and are the questions that carry with players at the end of the day. The really powerful questions change perspective and is difficulty a part of that yeah but I don't know if it's truly the meaning of the game. Maybe it functions as a mechanical expression of the theme but it's one piece of that expression artistically speaking. Maybe that says something about magic-based build how does that apply to the world outside the game? Basically this is me saying, I don't care that much but also wanted to mention my thoughts which I've also seen mentioned by some other commenters. You've gotten some amazing growth the last few months so I hope to see more of it. Also it's late so hopefully my writing isn't horrendous.
I think I agree on that first point. Cheesing was always a word used to completely bypass game mechanics, like killing an enemy through the wall or glitching bosses AI so it doesn't attack at all or tossing dung pies into Capra demon's arena and watching him die without you even engaging him.
Now with elden ring it suddenly was expanded to include every mechanic put into the game which just blows my mind.
Apparently we advanced the definition from: Exploiting the game to make enemies not function at all to not using strong weapons provided by the game within their boundaries.
Let's go back and apply same rules to other souls now, using winblades is cheese, using pyromancy in DS1 is cheese, using any kind of magic in DS2 is cheesing, Using magic at all in DeS is cheesing. There, this new cheese definition means a lot of people only cheesed their way through all of these games.
That is what cheesing is…people are just weird. If it’s in the game and intended to be used, it’s not cheesing
I would disagree with u on the definition on cheesing here. I don’t think cheesing and exploiting glitches is the same. Tho I haven’t played other souls games so maybe they define it differently in the souls community.
I’ve watched a lot of StarCraft and the definition there is a lot closer to how Rad defined it. Like standing behind a pillar in the corner and spamming hoarfrost on a boss is cheesy. But it’s not cheating. Glitching trough walls and bugging bosses out is not cheesy. That’s exploiting glitches. That’s my view on it at least. Personally I use some summons but try to avoid the most OP weapons and ashes as I feel they would ruin the first encounter experience for me. And make all the bosses feel samey. But to each their own
number go up make happy
i love it
So I had this thought during the video during Ratatoskr's bit regarding value, but because you brought up "Optimizing the fun out of the game", I figure I'll reply here, as it's relevant to both cases.
I find Fromsoft's game design approach to be a unique case where, "cheesing" the encounters doesn't always de-value that given experience. At least, not for myself. Not so much in recent titles, but due to their strange combination of brutal difficulty, and spurts of outright unfair mechanics, where the games are very much not putting you and the enemies on the same playing field (as a small example, enemy weapons swinging through walls, while yours clank), I find "cheesing" (or even the more broad term of just blasting them away with the tools given) to be not only equally as satisfying as mastering the fight, albeit in a different way, but also extremely cathartic.
It's a lot less common in Elden Ring in particular, but it's had its moments-- One situation in particular, given the game's overly aggressive buffering system, caused me to double-roll and die to one of those big bois in Stormveil's court yard. Out of frustration, I courted him and wedged him in a doorway, Demon Soul's style, and spammed the triggers, lazily nailing him with arrows until he died helplessly.
Would that devalue the experience for some people? Sure, but I found it extremely cathartic, and a highlight of my playthrough. This is all to say, while I agree with Ratatoskr's perspective that *generally* trying to organically fight through the game is immensely satisfying, that the opposite can be true as well. (And, to his credit, he did acknowledge the subjectivity of the situation)
The only problem with cheesing is pvp. It's too easy to re-spec your character into a pvp build to grief other people who are building characters for different purposes. Also, many people can't beat Malenia without a summon because she has cheesy regeneration.
Exactly, players are quick to forget that these bosses are quick to pour on the cheese too
@@universeobserver378 yep. I'll stop using summons when FromSoft stops piling on the gank bosses. If the boss gets to bring a plus one to this party, so do I.
ill stop cheesing bosses when they stop reading inputs
@@Naan_Cents Cheesing is still playing the game that's the point of all this ya dingus.
Malenia's healing isn't cheesy or unfair, but an attempt to design a new non-gimmick boss encounter in different way from the dodge-hit formula they've used. Because while she has combos that can randomly have upwards of 8 or 9 different attacks before it ends and she has her lifesteal, she also can be interrupted out of almost all of her attacks with only a few windows where she is impervious to it. They used her status as an optional hidden superboss to experiment with a new design and create an encounter where you are incentivized to create your own openings rather than wait for her to finish attacking you for them.
i went through the game pretty much how you suggested - not looking things up (exceptions: not finding npcs / vendors again and potentially bricking a questline) and trying to kill all bosses normally. I did use summons, but that's hardly cheesing - i didn't have mimic tear until i was in farum.
I was stuck over 14 hours on malenia. I spent an entire sunday running against that wall. A sunday during which i reached P2 the first time after about 4 hours, and at best managed a sub-40% P2.
After that, I caved, got mimic tear, hoarfrost stomp and 2 katanas, and respecced out of my STR build. She died in half an hour.
Then I respecced to STR and finished the game as I had before.
There was only 1 boss not worth my time.
I like having the option to essentially adjust the difficulty with my weapons/ashes depending on how I’m feeling. This is my first fromsoft game and it was overwhelming at first and I don’t have that much time to play with my schedule. So sometimes I want to hit my head against a wall and git gud. And sometimes I’m exhausted from work and want to annihilate a mini boss that has a million reskins anyway so I can get runes or an item and be on my merry way.
Just want to be the first to say WELCOME to the FromSoft insanity, from one female gamer to another!
Yesterday I discovered something incredible, I'd never bothered with ashes of summon and battle arts until yesterday, I decided to go through my inventory and try them all out, and the flame of redmane is Powerful!! It's is chargeable even without charging a single cast could break an enemy's stance banished knight take x2 to break and death rite only take 3 times to break it's stance. Simple and powerful ashes of war. And I thought to myself why did i never bother with ashes of war before, not because I feel ashame mainly becoz I just don't bother but they are all so good. Please try it out for yourself. Anyway, I don't feel shame using all the tools and ashes, they are there for a reason for efficiency's sake and better experience and practicality
yeah that ashes of war has basically turned me into a pyromancer with a big sword
Yeah im using it as an integrated version of combust in my Elden Ring Giant Dad build, it's pretty fun to use too, a bit slow sometimes though
Flame art +25 claymore with flame of redmanes, dragons are a joke to me, I fucking love that weapon art lmao, I'm sure it's getting nerfed in the future though.
@@doublet3n672 zweihander baby
Shhh. Don't tell them. Lol
Hmmmm... I dunno, taht definition sounds fishy, if "cheesing is playing and winning at a game by avoiding to engage with its mechanics" then that would mean that playing devil may cry without trying to do combos or change weapons is cheesing.
I think the proper definition might be closer to "DENYING the game a chence to present its mechanics to the player, by exploiting bugs or unintended weak defenses in an opponent"
After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just *overpower* him?
That's a big difference, as overpowering is an intended design aspect of rpgs (especially jrpgs, but it applies to all rpgs)all the way back since the nes dragon quest days if not earlier.
The only difference between grinding to level 300 to annihilate any boss vs using azur comet+infinite fp flask is that the latter takes some mental investment and exploration rather than being insanely stubborn at farming a few mobs.
And yet grinding to win has never been looked down upon in 40 years of gaming(even if forcing that has been rightfully seen as poor game design in the last decade)
Even when grinding to win you still would have to dodge and manage to hit. Comet azur is literally pressing 3 buttons as soon as you exit the fog gate
"After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just overpower him"
it's funny you should say that... that is precisely what I did lol
@@saphinadarkness2502 well it also doesn't work on every boss eh.
@@deinonychus1948 and point proven
You can always switch to a +0 level weapon and nerf your damage to make the fight a bit more fair.
What i do in my first fights with a boss, its just dodge(not attack). I know i am probably going to die anyways since i dont use spirits, summons and i use a strenght build. So i might as well watch them reeeally closely, when can they be punished for making a big slow attack? How many hits is their combo composed of? And does he usually make an extra hit after his combo? In the first 2 to 3 fights i have all that figured out and then its time for some punishing. That way i usually kill them in my 3rd or 4rth try, if they are too hard.