What's a Good Port and a Bad Port: B16a PR3 Head
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- čas přidán 25. 12. 2022
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To knife edge or not? that is the question...
This is mainly for our locals but it is an excellent general information that all honda enthusiasts globally will benefit from. We share how port volume can vary a huge difference without noticing it through photos alone. How a good looking "bling" port does not always translate to excellent flow and performance. So buyers beware!
As we did mention in the topic the PR3 VS GSR head video we did
here below is a link to it
• B16 PR3 vs GSR B18c1 H...
Also mentioned Jasper's B20vtec that we built and runs 12s on pump
the video discussing his whole engine and set up is below here
• B20Vtec YCP vs 1UP pis...
As we gave more examples and talked about porting
we did mention Headgames Motorworks of NJ and their video on polishing
can be found here
• Just polish your head,...
Their well explained yet entertaining video about gasket matching is here
• The great gasket match...
and their Epic dimple port vs standard port analysis video here
• HeadGames Tests Dimple...
Here's a link to their channel so you guys can check em' also
/ @headgames
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#What’s a Good Port and Bad Port : B16a PR3 Head
#B16 PR3 Head: what’s a Good Port and Bad Port
#What’s a Good Port and Bad: B16a PR3 Head checked
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you will find gains by working the roof in the guide area more than you have. on high hp and rpm applications i go as high as 95% on the intake throat. always focus on getting the engine the air it needs before worrying too much about port velocity. in racing its a about maximizing power (torque produce over time) and then keeping hit in the correct rpm window using the gearbox which you prob already know. keep up the good work ralph !
Oh maaan! Some Golden nuggets of a tip right there :) thank you sir
👍
nice in-depth info 😍 happy new year SRDMotorsports TV 🙂
Thank you! And happy new year to you and family too enjoy the celebrations later!
It's nice that u show love to the other companies in the game that's real love and no hate 💯🙏🏼✌🏼
Oh yes definitely
👍
Guys that’s really gold information…love those things!!
Thanks maaaaan hope it helps
Great video and info as always! 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾
Oh thank you brother! You better be having a good time with family right about this time cuz it’s the season ftw!
Love all the info you give
Oh thanks man much appreciated! Just sharing to avoid wasted money especially local to us to many dudes selling “ported” heads but “why” sell if it’s good?
Really awesome comparisons you did here, porting is something you really need to know what you're doing because once you take off material you can't put it back on and if you mess up then you need a new head which is costly of course, and the Facebook mechanics always know best right lol thanks for sharing brother
Yes sir it’s something I believe most should understand before “buying” a ported head
Very informative, thanks idol happy holidays. . .
Thank you wow so fast to watch 😂 Happy Holidays and Stay safe you and family 👊
Great video keep up the good work
Thanks man! Glad this helped
Great video and screw any negative comments! Don’t pay any attention to that crap.
Thanks brother! I hear you on those… it’s alright I still reply politely… in the end we all see who lives and eats Facebook life 🤣😂🤣
I've certainly WAY overdone it with porting in the past. My quick/dirty way of telling if someone's hogged it out too much are the traces of raw casting directly above the valve seats on the long-side radius. If they've hogged out the pockets enough to have removed every trace of original casting - there's a 95% chance they've gone too far.
Yes! Ur quick/dirty way is pretty accurate that ledge by the bowl at the long-side radius
If that’s gone regardless of core shift = done too much
man thanks for this info.. makes me wanna pull out the head on my car and check things out
Well ur car runs good and strong so most likely it’s “all good in da hood” but something tells me u just looking for an excuse to tinker with ur engine hahaha
@@SRDmotorsports now your giving me an idea..hahaha
@@the063one same same it’s why I say need to do a series of my engine 🙄 haha
Good morning my friend,
I love your videos.
I have an RB 30 cylinder head just wondering how much porting will it need to flow better.
Thanks
gotta research more about that rb30 engine
Good thing you were able to see what port job works and not by using the flow bench of Autoplus
Not only do you now have the experience but also the knowledge that other mechanics or shop does not have
Great job, Ralph
Happy Holidays
Happy Holidays doc!
So true and Francisco knew I was after the “learning” more than anything hence he did consider it and allowed it ftw! And I’d always owe him that
@@SRDmotorsports
True Ralph, that's the beauty of actually doing a flow bench
No guesswork anymore
@@blue3549 yeeeep
Here’s the B16a PR3 head porting video
czcams.com/video/gHnlm-JqGhM/video.html
A technical look at the difference of a gsr and a b16a head is here too
czcams.com/video/jrhxHVKHw3w/video.html
And a B20vtec Build on GSR head video
czcams.com/video/m79v_e7p_NY/video.html
I have a B16 and H22 head both cnc ported by a pretty well known Honda race shop here in the US. They both have a 91% throat open to valve on intake side.
On the exhaust side the b16 has about 82.3% throat open and on the H22 exhaust it's approximately 94.7% throat open.
I did realize on the Exhaust port cross-section on "each cylinder" the port on the inner side or closest to the center of head is ported about .5 mm smaller than the one adjacent to it.
yeah that’s cool… that’s inside the ideal window I see if 88-91% on the intake (I was just talking about the intake btw)
but def those cnc head u have will work even better with more comp and good cam, they prolly stick to their tried and tested stuff.
Good observation on the exhaust most even the K heads have “directional” ports so on one side it’s a lil different than the other side
Good reference point “center” of the head as u notice the port 1-2 is biased to a direction and the 3-4 are too but on the “other” direction.
@@SRDmotorsports also my guides were cut down and the guide bosses were completely removed. I read that the guide bosses is best to be taper.
Anyways i do feel like the throat on the h22 exhaust is bigger than it should be, but like you mention it's what they tried and tested. Good content as always. Keep it coming Boss.
yeah depending on application it “changes” just like Mr David Hsu owner of skunk2 said in this comment even 94% is doable for max effort
And true on h22… it’s most likely why when running f22 crank or bigger like h23 it keeps gaining power :)
@@SRDmotorsports I've also read on a Motortrend article about the short turn area. The article talked about porting/raising the short turn roof area and widening the short turn area to help slow down air to make the turn at the short turn area. David Hsu mention working the roof area in the comment and on David Localio (Headgame) b16 head video he widen the short term area. Just some interesting stuff i learned recently.
yes as one can notice, some details I sometimes don’t share cuz “ahem ahem” 😎
But yes in general as Dave Localio @Headgames widening the short turn does slow it a bit and the goal here is to “equalize” the speed at near the floor and up the roof cuz if the speed differential is big then “sheering” can happen and it does hurt flow
@Dave skunk2 did talk about some tricks to be had or gained around that “area” as in Bseries that’s near the choke area and it helps shaping that to improve substantially
If you check my video last year or almost 2 years ago the TypeR style porting vid I did try to draw the cross section of the port and that can help u visualize it better (though that vid was talking about bowl blend and all so slightly off topic)
Hi SRD! Been a fan of your work ever since. I just want to ask if you dont mind: I have a local ph16 vti with p08 IM match ported for 68mm throttle body but I have stock tb (58mm if im correct) with aftermarket intake tube. Now, does that apply with your video about the venturi effect? Also, am I on the right track to have a p08 manifold on a ph16 vtec?
Either manifold will be fine, just the vti manifold suits the vti head better
68mm is it bigger than the 3in intake pipe? Nope so it still converges but the p08 plenum isn’t big enough to have an effective effect
It’s not a bad set up just not optimized
@@SRDmotorsports thank you very much for your response! Looking forward to more informative videos as you normally do!
Thanks for checking these out
Interestingly on Tuesday a new video will be out and it’s all about getting the most/best of what u have in terms of building and engine assembly
I watched one of David Visards porting videos today. He thought for his particular engine, 91% was optimal.
You mentioned 89%
I'll watch your video again, because I don't understand the percentages.
Percentages involving flow?
Cross section?
Volume?
Just not understanding it fully.
Loved the video.
Yeah some heads 91% is okay I mean even on the pr3 for a more race app. I could go 91% it’s just most are street driven and street used + we have enough of “other” complimenting mods to help it work better but indeed the window is around 89-91%
@@SRDmotorsports Thak you.
Doing that, plus installing the larger 1.6 inch exhaust on my 1988 Chevy 4.3 V6 ought to bring me another 200 HP. 😁
My old machinist once told me:
"Randy, would you stop reading books?"
😁😁😁
Nice nice!
Love your videos bro! Was wondering if it was worth port and polishing a pr3 itr head? A lot of people say the port and polish from factory isnt the best. Currently have it on my b20v for my crv 5 speed almost ready to drop in. Thanks bro!
Well tbh if it can be ported well then def it’s worth it but if it’s to be ported shadetree style and skeptical approach then def the stock core can remain as is and will still function real well
@@SRDmotorsports my honda guy does a great job porting heads but i think ill just keep it factory. Maybe in the future ill just grab a b16 head and port it. Thanks!
@@swiftluss4272 yeah that makes sense or after he will know how ur set up needs it… even better win! 😎
5:14 👍🏾 Have you tried steel epoxy or cold welding to reduce port volume?
Actually havnt… but I’m sure u seen Endyn previously actually tig weld the port floors loool on a K
hello question i heard p2j head are higher comp than the p08 head? and i heard people putting p08 internals inside a p2j head is that something that makes more power?
It’s what makes them slower then they have to buy Mfactory gears to just run decent? Lol
Check this video to know more
czcams.com/video/kO_WgwiN0TY/video.html
@@SRDmotorsports thanks!
@@angelfpv4825 hope that helps man :)
what is yours cross sectional area - valve stem and valve guide ?
It’s in my notes we can pm at the shop page as that’s something I don’t mention here
Similar too what your saying, Head games philosophy for many heads is less-is-more
bigger is not always better for 99% of the guys
Oh I def def agree with that… now if they’re gunning for the fastest B series in the whole wide world ok ok diff story lol
How much power did your b20vtec make? Last head I did on a b20vtec made 230whp with a 2.5" exhaust no open header? Our dyno reads low, curious what you made?
233whp no open header 2.5” exh too… dynojet
street set up YCP pistons
We did another one did 235whp thru a chambered muffler (was on a gen1 CRV)
Right on good numbers the clients header and intake manifold weren't very good but the car ripped@@SRDmotorsports
that’s awesome!
Love it!! , btw, do you sell, just in case, ported cyclinder heads for vti?
For a VTi ? I actually have a spare core but if the car is within the metro (Manila) it’s better as we can do the install that’s easy
@@SRDmotorsports yup, ihave d16y4 engine. Im just around morong rizal.
@@michalex76 oh so a y4 so a vti too? nice
Well I hope it’s a VTi haha
I could pay a visit sir at your shop naman hehe
I still put a point at beginning of the divider in intake port… just the tip 😅 it’s a disturbance of air flow shit all but still there…. What did you do for exhaust ports i straighten them out you need to off set oil return I normally sleeve it aswel to retain the exhaust port wall thickness like the earlier non vtec ex ports are much better I’ve built some wild engines not many vtecs tho normally just hot cam keep engine in its peek performance range all depends on the use intended tho
I’ve built a world number 1 race engine and multiple New Zealand title winning race engines
True on the NonVtec stuff
@@SRDmotorsports I never got to see the last vtec I dono dyne it should of been the best yet but guy sold it before was finished was going to be a track car full race I even went to the point of putting oversized skunk2 valves and also supertech valves on intake to get a swirl in bore going worked awsome at low lift and still really good at high lift but didn’t get see it go :( you probably don’t care cause it’s not a Honda but My last motor I done just got dynoed last week run in tune was 606hp ls2 that’s Prity sweet for a n/a automatic still got another 2k rpm and timing advance to go should be a weapon
Lol man i was looking at him(head games) just before you right now 🤣
U saw the dimpled video? I can’t match his “uncle Johnny” loool but Dave and I do talk and he a good guy for sure
@@SRDmotorsports cant wait to see😀 he's funny 😆
their dimples port vid is worth it haha
@@SRDmotorsports darn! 🤣 good one! Btw: i think the only places or situations whe can use this is when there is too much volume to work with or to get air not pass in laminar flow at a certain spot. So again, not using the volume in place. We all seen posted results cnc and dadada. But i think its it.
I agree and we can never ignore the “drag” factor
I mean if the reference is golf balls?
Then u better have a tiger woods kinda incoming charge (hence he was superior in his prime his swing was stronger than old folks)
Wanting to stay budget, I had the idea of “lightly” porting the ports. And this shows it’s not necessary to go big on porting. Was this a light or mild port job you did on these heads? The other head you can really see how big you can go.
The “bad” one was done by another shop 🤣😂 the ones I did ? Light or mild or race while it’s not the same non reach that “bad” one lol
U can do a light clean up that shouldn’t harm a thing btw
@@SRDmotorsports I see, so the “bad one” even though it looks like a clean job the ports are just to big.
@@DanA-yb5uu yeah the goal was to show that “looks” can deceive just like in real life 🤣😂🤣
@@SRDmotorsports tbh I know you said that in the vid and I was like that looks like a job though, where’s the bad one lol!, but would there be a reason to ever go that big?
@@DanA-yb5uu yeah actually if u are running 95 or 97 stroke crank and on Methanol it works cuz methanol in tuning it’s rich and methanol itself is oxygenated…
Ofcourse for drag
Well said mate 👌
Oh thank you brother!!! will take this opportunity to ask permission if I can share your “dimpled ports” video at my shop page?
you the only one that I seen explain it better and properly! Props on that mate 🫡
No problem at all bro. Keep up the good work 👌
thaaaanks mate! 🙏
If u boost it than run huge port..sure the turbo give u the air speed through the bowl of port.. boosted cars way more fun...even if it's a small t28 size turbo making 380wheel
For sure 🤣
I've had my car for 7 years, I've been inside of it and out. But I've kept it stock. Anyway, I've got a few heads laying around and I've decided I want to try my hand at making power with the car. I'm going to give porting a head a go, nothing crazy, a gasket match and refining the shape. Any tips?
Doing a basic clean up with 80grit will actually show you alot (where and what to improve or reshape) so starting that way will be really good and it will put u on the right track
@@SRDmotorsports thank you sir, I've heard you say that a lot in the videos of yours that I've watched surprisingly I haven't many videos on porting D-series heads. My car is a bit of an oddball. But it's always ran great. It's a d16y8 block and head, with a d15b7 distributor, d16z6 cam gear and intake, and a p28 ECU in a 93 hatchback chassis. So when I say it's stock, I mean they're all stock parts. Lol don't ask me how it runs, I was 17 with a hope, dream, and $100
Interesting combination of an engine but hey! That’s the foundation that can be worked on 😎
There’s a point of no return for porting… but as a general rule of thumb it’s 1CFM per HP before the head becomes a significant restriction… I’ve never seen a test proving that larger ports hurt low end power, I have seen at least in the V8 world where the difference in ports can be 40cc and the larger port makes more low end and high end power but is softer in the middle… at WOT port velocity has very little affect on power but you can change the resonance frequency of the port length with longer or shorter intake runners which remedies rpm range discrepancies anyway
All statements I see facts! And even the rule of thumb reminds me of my old superflow manual
And yes on the port length + runner length even taper are remedies that actually do work…
In the import world what u stated , happens except when it gets to that “point of no return” it’s brushed off as “needs more comp” or “needs more cam” or “needs more displacement” basically it needs a whole different engine? 🙃
👍
One note: A larger port will lose *low end torque* but will make more top end power
Yep
At a certain point, when you exceed the ideal cross section area for the engine build you're doing you will lose power across the rpm range, it's better to err on the small side when it comes to ports so as not to kill port velocity & keep discharge coefficient high.
😎🏎🙏
Thank you brother! State side more guys like you already know better…but this is direly needed to be known for our locals here for better awareness…as core costs have gone up crazy!
Sorry for my spelling!
It's David Vizard.
All good all good
The bad was obvious because the inlet part was way too big before the pocket which creates sudden changes in airspeed. Sudden changes in airspeed make zero torque. That’s just the way it is. Plus fuel falls out of suspension.
Yep
@@SRDmotorsports I port late model civic type r heads and even the bigger names in the business make that mistake. It might even read great on a flow bench but won’t make any power. Direct injection is a whole other animal because if you mess up angles you lose power far worse than a port injection head. It’s very easy to destroy tumble in a head.
@@Fk8td yeah a lot get stuck at what looks good in their eye… and some even use the bench as the excuse
I did my own port and polish on d15b2 16 valves engine really I enjoy it the way I did it was first looking at the tunnel I took a little bit on tob by the valves and more in the entrance and polish it big difference in higher rpm the air will flow with pressure like breathing lungs by doing this the engine will be in rpm almost normally in low rpm but in mid rpm up the breathing becomes double the side of the lungs I think is how people look at natural laws of nature and my d15b2 16 valves fly with light weight flywheel and gd clutch kit and cam combination and the Weber here where HP don't mean crap only weight and the HP at the perfect time cam Weber flywheel fuel and air combination to a power force and weight all combined to a perfect equation that we call power I call it oxygen force from heat and oxygen and I can say I love my build for sp and enjoyable ride around down town but man man I build something nice amigo by understanding natural laws
Very very nice
@@SRDmotorsports amigo you should look at a engine that no body mention real famous in the old days the head work from factory was the best small block out there and still even today and the motor was over 300 HP fast like hell strong and real gd on gas and is call the dodge small block 340 here where people should sit and learn and I have one in a storage I bought it from a farmer long ago only to have it for me this was one of the best motor in USA history and the high-performance 289 Ford in both motors we can see the human brain taking it to another level anyway look at the 340 dodge engine head work huge bored big valves from factory and fast strong engine and great on gas for his time
Oh very nice and very cool will check on that
@@SRDmotorsports yeap check on the 340 engine such motor on a 240 z will be a beautiful set up a drop in because it have it all ready from factory the power the sp and the sounds and will move the 240 z body like a feather such motor was made for performance and and gas economic at the same time is real real strong and real fast the 240 z will be a race car with that motor from the door probably it will be in the 12 s beautiful for the streets and highway yeah you should check that engine the head work was and still is amazing art form for me the best small block with the 289 ford ho amigo
Very cool!
yung exhaust ba maganda nka polish o hindi. para sana hindi kapitin ng carbon
Polished or not, kakapitan pa din ng carbon so mas important “shape” this way if shaped well then carbon can uniformly cover it and still flow well
As I can see today porting polishing is what porter do since my beginning I consider miself as porting reshaping these 2 worlds today so many don’t fuckin know how to involve ! Can even imagine u thing those head are really port I pass at least 40hours on honda heads and truss me my port really don’t look like all of those head u should give me a call and ship me something !!
Yes sir you said the perfect word “reshaping” and looks are for car shows and not always flow improvements just because of looks I agree man! Just like the video showed… looks don’t always show on the dyno or the racetrack and we see a lot of those
how do i reach you
Shop page or IG is fastest both are in the description box
PR3 = Virtually no core shift :)
Actually the one I have ? Is an earlier core to be fair it’s ‘89 the more porter one is a later core ‘98 and that’s usually the case on the later model ones the core shift is a lot more
a downside ofcourse
V8 liked big all over 😂😂😂😂😂
But maaan u can see what power v8 makes … “big” too 🤣
So less is more in porting if you don’t have the right tools
If we reference the b16 head as like the title of the vid yes… on the D16 though it does lack port volume for high rpm power… so the task there is a bit different
@@SRDmotorsports Do you have any experience on the 2ZZ-GE head? Does it need more port volume?
ported some for dudes in Australia they’re decent heads… seems okay depends on application , intake and exhaust amongst other things to asses the rest
You sound u have a month full of saliva and drunk and the same time lol
Glad that makes u better
Dude! You're getting confused and spreading fake news. Bowl and throat are not the same thing. Throat is the area in the port immediately after valve angles. Bowl is what you're describing in the video. Bowl is often made 100% valve diameter and doesn't kill torque.
Also it seems you don't understand torque/power relationship. To put it very simply: car with more power is able to put more torque to the wheels. Your point about less torque and carbon doors is simply embarrassingly wrong.
I hear u on bowl and throat yeah terminologies erring…. But we both know a lot tend to do right by going 100% valve diameter on bowl then carry it to the throat almost eliminating the first angle on the valve Kobe and I’ve seen that done often times including the example head here
But more power is able to put more torque to the wheels?
But isn’t power a product of torque over time?
And the point about carbon doors etc
So “power to weight” ratio does not apply?
again not in this to argue but I hear u on the bowl and throat
@@SRDmotorsportsat given rpm, more powerful engine makes more torque. It's wrong to say: "It makes more power, but less torque, thus car needs carbon doors to make up for the list torque." It's not about torque to weight ratio. It's about the power to weight ratio (as you correctly stated in your comment).
Yes if throat is too big and valve angles are compromised, it hurts flow. What you're describing in the video is called bowl and it can be cut to 100% of the valve diameter (yes bigger than throat) throat should be the narrowest part of the port, not bowl.
@@tiitsaul9036 the carbon doors = that’s common here and when u think about it , they run all that and only pull 12.7sec yes on drag etc not circuit so yep power to weight ratio like a heavier car running 12.5sec…
On to the throat yeah it is severely compromised… again on the b16 head (not other heads Ofcourse) going 100% on the bowl is often times working on high boost set ups… which we both know is also not the only “way”
It’s why we see Bseries making 500whp on 38psi
And another Bseries making 500whp on 31psi
A little general in a sense but… too many DIY people or people think it’s easy and with the current cost of a stock b16 head now is more regrettable
Just like this head example = I am rebuilding it and it made 102whp on the dyno by the owner
That’s a b16a ! 😂
Oh and I didn’t say “it makes more power but less torque”
That doesn’t work that way 😂
@@SRDmotorsports my bad. I watched it again and listened carefully. You're right, you didn't say "makes less torque, but more power". My apologies.