Tasting Scott Rao's High Extraction Espresso
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- I visited the Decent Espresso booth at the World of Coffee Event in Berlin, to taste the results of Scott Rao's recent experimentation.
Here are some thoughts...
Further reading:
baristahustle.com/blog/coffee...
/ bwxfdywh-pa
www.scottrao.com/blog/2018/6/...
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A development definitely worth exploring in greater depth, thanks James.
Yes please!
Can I second that? I’m keen to know about the puck-protection aspect.
I might be late to the party but I'd like to "3rd" that. Maybe a little more practical, hands on trial using sth like a Europiccola 🙂
A friend of mine once said that "sometimes the point of innovation is not making something new or something better, but making something that might inspire better things"
As you said, the shot might not be the best but it opens the mind and broadens the possibilities of what is possible or not and, specially, what will people do with this new ideas.
indeed miyagawa san..
I have been experimenting with this method using cut down aeropress filters on my Flair lever machine and it has yielded consistently amazing shots. I do an 11 second preinfusion and by that I mean I give it a couple bar until I see a drip, then back off the pressure for 11 seconds and pull the shot aiming for 1g per second for 34 seconds using 14g in. This method has allowed me to grind finer and use less pressure, usually between 4 and 5 bar. It also makes clean up much easier.
back of the pressure means, u release the lever ? or just kinda stay at low bar pressure? the filter is under the shower screen i presume?
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 back off pressure means I stop pushing down on the lever, you probably shouldn't let go of the lever entirely, so yes, very little pressure. I put the filter under the coffee. I tried with a filter above and a filter below, but I don't think it makes any difference.
@@mexicanhalloween 14 , i assume ur not using the pro filter basket tho?? thnks alot for te info man really prciate it
@@mohdhakimraoufmohdkhanafia8182 No, 14g is about the most you could use in the original basket, I assume the pro baskets can use more. I'm glad I could I help.
So I've been playing around with this since this video was uploaded and got to thinking:
- Using paper filters
- pre-infusion plus steep time of 30 seconds to spread the water throughout the grounds; and
- barely 4 bars of pressure during the finish
When I enumerate the process like that, doesn't it look like we're just using an aeropress?
Same thoughts
You wont get an aeropress anywhere near 4 bar, they peak at around 0.8. This means you wont be able to get the grind as fine as this and get that high extraction he was talking about. The process emulates some of the characteristics of an aeropress I guess but it will be far more concentrated.
One can achieve a higher pressure by standing on the aeropress
they said 2 bars during extraction
@Rafael E. i could drive my car over the aeropress
James Hoffmann is the David Attenborough of coffee. I said it first.
Please dig deeper James into this method . Tks
Can't wait for "Do Gorillas like Chamberlain coffee?"
"Baboons on humid cold brew shots"
Baristas in the Mist? And there we have it.
Yes!
the more experimental stuff you do the better! I love watching you push the boundries of the coffee industry when no one else does.
Please dig deeper ! like you said its new thing to explore
Absolutely pleeease do that video!!
Thanks so much Mr. Hoffman!
Your the new 'Hoff' of Coffee👍
Seeing Scott Rao's name reminds me of Scott Rao's V60 video what reminds me of James Hoffmann wanting to do a V60 video as well a while ago. James, how is the V60 video coming along? :D
speaking of which... a kalita wave video would also be excellent
After over a decade of making hand poured coffee at home I still use an 01 V60. I've owned or extensively used almost every pour over (and a lot of immersion) brewers and I always come back to the V60. So I'm throwing in my request for a James Hoffman V60 video.
Does James have a different technique than Scott?
@@wayoutwest7 totally agreed. For me V60 is number 1, Aeropress number 2. All the others don't even beat my Aeropress results, let alone the V60. I gave Kalita one year trying hard, and eventually just stopped using it.
@@mikecantreed Maybe. I'd also like to hear his thoughts on different methods that are out there.
Dig deep, interesting perspective around a new product as always. I really enjoy your videos.
Yes pleaaase do a video on it!
When I read the blog post I was amazed by how counterintuitive it seemed, and by how much it goes against the conventional wisdom (re extraction levels). The more firmly we hold those beliefs, the more fun it will be to prove them wrong! :D
This is an exciting frontier, it would be really cool to see someone as knowledgeable as you be part of pushing that frontier out.
Matt at the end! Haha.. love it. Yeah absolutely. You’re reasoning for exploring further (value chain waste) should be enough regardless of what we think. Consumers may be the last to know. You make it your job to know. I appreciate it! I think we all do. Hope to hear more about this! Cheers!
Hi James, yes i have been there and tastet several espresso made by Scott Rao.
And yes i want to Learn more about that Kind of making espresso.
By the way, the Maschine Scott used Was mine.
Tough to see my three coffee crushes on the same video, my heart just got 27% extracted.
Only person missing is Chris Baca
@@theraymondo I agree! Then I'll happily die
theraymondo No I need Sprometheus 😛
I spot Scott Rao and James Hoffman. Who's the third person?
Spell Binder Matt Perger, right at the end
Thank you for sharing this topic James.. it's so interesting!
nonton juga dok 👍
Yeeees a new video, thanks James 😁
Very intrigued. PLEASE dig away. Glad to hear that you have in interest in the Decent Espresso machine and Scott's research. I am very excited to see what's in store. Thanks James!
James I have to say your music selection is amazing. Your content is so well produced!
Thank you for sharing your perspective on Rao's new approach to extraction! It is all super interesting to me, and I'd love to hear more on this!
Exploring the older vids just so I can listen and relax to James' voice for a little while... 💆🏻♀️ ❤
Yes, this is fascinating. I would be happy to watch more of this.
Scott Rao is a Awesome dude , he personally answered alot of my roasting questions online when I was starting .
At first when Scott Rao talked about this on his Instagram page, I was so shocked & excited because I'm not a professional Batista, I'm just a home barista with simple equipments and i used to do this for another matter and had this feeling that the espresso's quality get much higher! One of my equipments for making coffee on a trip is Bialetti Brikka and it was always on my nerves that i could feel coffee particles in my coffee, either in bialetti's water tank after using and opening it!
So i started to cut paper filters with the size and dimension of bialetti coffee basket and used one on top and one on the bottom of it!
That would be so interesting if you could break into this and open it for us James, can't wait to hear it from you. You're awesome.
Please keep uploading at peak coffee. Perfect timing.
James , YES by all means keep posting as you find out new things !! Love this topic! Coffee has kind of leveled off for a long time. ( not bad ) but may take some time to explore new frontiers ! Thanks 👍☕️
Don’t know how I missed this video. Very interesting indeed. And definitely an avenue worthy of investigation and a video please.
Super great video, definitely keep going down this rabbit hole!
Yes please! I need more of these. It is my first time hearing and seeing someone use paper filter for an espresso it is really intriguing. 🙏🏻😊
Patricia Agreed! Very interesting 🤔 would love @James Hoffmann to explore this new avenue of espresso making!
James is turning me into a coffee geek and I shall forever be grateful for that.
I was at the World of Coffee in Berlin and had great fun! Did see you there and contemplated saying hi, but didnt wanna bother you :D
Anyway, thank you for very well put together videos and channel, your videos are always very nice to watch after a long day. :))
I'd definitely be interested in hearing more about this high extraction espresso!
Yo James, these tunes are on point. Every single video!
Please do dig into that!! Loved your input about it and this is such a new world to explore inside the coffee world...
Brilliant video and explanation as always. Love this channel!
Yeees, this is very interesting! Definitely want to see more of this kind of thing.
I would have loved to try that espresso in Berlin! I‘d really be interested in your experiences, tinkering some more with it yourself. The concept and the points you mentioned are absolutely valid. Looking forward to an eventual video!
I absolutely would love to see you dig deeper into that! First time commenting by the way. Love your channel!
Never saw so many uniformly sensible comments on CZcams (on any topic). Says something about Hoffmann's excellence
This is amazing - I've actually been doing something very similar with my old Dualit machine. For the last couple of weeks I've been using empty round tea bags as the filter in the bottom of the portafilter - they don't cost anything after all, and fit and do the same job. It stops finer grounds clogging the portafilter, and more importantly a much better extraction - consistently good. I might try one on top too, to see the effect, but I'm very happy using this method. I also pre-infuse.
Would absolutely love to hear more about this James!
Really interesting James and would really like to see you explore this more via a video on this platform- thanks again, Al
For about ten years I've been using a filter in my AP that I cut out of a Mont-Bell O.D. Compact Dripper filter, which is a 60 micrometer, food-grade, polyester mesh filter, and have been very happy with it. It allow the oils the paper filters absorb to pass through.
I thought it would be interesting to try using this material with the Flair Pro I just bought.
I cut out two filters and tried to emulate this method on 15g of cheap dark roast that I had been using to dial things in. The 45g I pulled* had a much better flow and much less bitterness than without the filters. I then did the same on a quality dark roast. This shot had virtually no bitterness, but pronounced tartness akin to drinking citrus. Without the filters it had some bitterness and tartness. Both had about the same body as shots without the filters, so I assume the oils and insolubles were able to pass through.
I pulled the lever until drops appeared, than stopped and waited for 30 seconds. I then pulled the shots at about 5-6 bars. The cheap beans took about 50 seconds to pull, and the good beans about 35 seconds. I used the same grind setting for both.
It was really interesting to see how different the shots tasted due only to the addition of the filters. I'm looking forward to playing with this more, especially trying a finer grind with lower pressure.
*Since I'm trying to emulate Scott Rao's high extraction method, I figured I use his 3:1 ratio from the 2:1 ratio post on his site.
Keep up the good work. Love your thoughtful insights.
Definitely keep going with these videos! Such interesting techniques
Yes! Definitely want more on this.
Soo interesting!
Definitely an interesting concept to explore. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
This is very interesting. I love the idea of pushing the boundaries in coffee to get more out of it! So yes, dig deeper for us and show us.
Thanks for doing gods work James. Keep it up.
I love your intelligent picking apart of and breaking down products and processes, both mechanically/physically and philosophically. I thought this was super interesting, and I don't have any experience making espresso myself nor am I in the business. Its interesting from an entertainment perspective but also because the ideas are applicable to other walks of life. Please pursue this if you want to!
I dig your channel very much. Thanks for the entertaining educational insightful perspective.
Thanks! This is very interesting indeed! I've tried various versions of espresso out of my home machine over the years. Low pressure, long duration shots have always intrigued me and I've had mixed results for sure. The small 'fortune' worth of high tech gadgets we see Scott using as he experiments is likely close to the amount of $ I have spent on coffee beans! Espresso is an endlessly interesting hobby!
Yes please! I think this is super interesting and would love to hear your perspective on some experiments that you run 👍
Hi James! It was really nice to finally meet you. Try it on the Moka pot, I was getting a lot of good stuff. I started on the experiment as most of the clients I had buying roasted coffee couldn’t afford an espresso machine. I wanted to give them a chance to drink something as close to it as possible by using something that so many households would have. Eitherways, thanks again for the great content! P.S. God damn your tall! You look so tinny in the championship video!
I just pulled two shots on my la pavoni pro using these informations and it positively changed my control of taste and extraction rate entirely!!
Dude, stuff is super interesting! Love you videos 😄
Awesome. Loved this episode.
Definitely worth exploring in more depth and variations. Keep those coming 🙏
Do dig dipper, it’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing so much info, your work is inspiring. 🤗
Yes! Please go down this rabbit hole!!
It was nice seeing Scott on your channel! I used to go to his cafe in Amherst every day when I was in college. I had coffee there that was unlike anything else I've had anywhere, thick and oily but smooth and mellow, never bitter.. And this was drip brewed into an urn.
It's interesting even from the roasting side of view. What kind of profiles we need to avoid astrigency for these kind of extractions for example?
Given that one can make any coffee astringent with the right (wrong) extraction, I think approaching roast profiles with the goal of minimizing astringency wouldn't be a very fruitful /interesting endeavor. Instead, approach profiles with the intention of highlighting certain tasting notes/flavors (taking advantage of increased clarity and intensity at these high% extractions) or trying to maintain sweetness and clarity while cutting down on acidity (longer drying and mallard phases?) since these high extraction shots tend to intense, borderline unpleasant acidity from what I understand
Tbh, I’d love to hear more about that. I hope you’d explore more and “dig deep”
Truly need more of this knowledge, please dig james
Hi James, would love to see your experimentation with paper filters, your approach is always thoughtful and insightful.
also, thank you so much for your suggestions on a previous video, decreasing the amount of coffee and slightly altering the grind made a world of difference in my shots at home.
Deserves another several months of exploring. I think we’re seeing a peephole into the future of espresso
James, I'd love to see more exploration of this. Please do a video on it!
Definitely always good to see some new approaches. I’d love for you to get more into why this brewing method creates the flavour profile it does. So how the ratios of the compounds extracted change, and their individual impact on flavour. That would give people a baseline to explore for themselves and to adapt their brewing profiles to the coffee they are using.
Now anything that allows me even more caffeine at no extra cost always gets my attention. Now I'm going back to watch it again. Great post, cheers
Yes please explore this more - would like to see this perfected a bit more.
I love the thought of using a metal filter on top of the puck. I think it would solve a lot of tamping issues and add consistency to extraction
Nice vid Mr Hoffman
I also had the chance to try it at WoC. I'm unsure of the numbers from the shot I had was, scott estimated 25% ish. My espresso was light, delicate and balanced. No dryness, finish was good.
Im super excited to see where this is headed. Im surprised that its taken us so long to realise that this is possible. The brewing control chart where most of our beliefs around extractions come from was created mid last century, in a time where specialty coffee and precision roasting, brewing, etc did not exist. It seems logical to now to think that its possible to push past that.
The last 10 years have rightfully given a great focus on the farmers and roasters. The new technology with flow/pressure profile gives the focus back to the barista, and I like it! I am a proud owner of a DE.
Oh, PLEASE -- I'm dying for more. This was already one of the better bits i've seen on the paper+espresso thing.
This paper filter thing is curious, but a lot doesn't make sense to me, yet. Or, I suppose, there's a lot of theorizing about what the paper does, but I want someone to prove it. I want to see more individual tests between top/bottom etc and how they compare to various other variables.
Thanks, as always!
Fantastic video, James! I assume I’m speaking for many people of the community if I ask you to follow this unbeaten path. Very curious to see and hear more from you on this matter.
Cheers from Melittaville ☕️
This was one of the things I was most keen to see at the WoC, so I stopped by the booth early on the first day of the show... Perhaps I should have stopped by later when they'd dialed in a bit more. I had one of the shots that was pulled at a higher pressure, and it definitely wasn't great. It tasted traditionally "overextracted", although there were some interesting flavours in there as well. It sort of reminded me of a good botanical gin in that there were interesting florals that felt inextricably intertwined with astringency. Also, the texture on mine was more syrupy/like high pulp orange juice... The difference in textures is likely attributable to the higher pressures I suppose? Overall, very interesting.
I will say that the two paper filter method may be more interesting to me than the super high extractions. I've played around with it quite a bit, and gotten some truly delicious espressos (particularly with Kenyan coffees) at around 24.5 percent extraction.
Nice one James. I would like to see more about it.
Spoke to you briefly at WoC by the brew & espresso bars and I was lucky to take some time out to taste Scott's shots over 2 days. I think the development has been great for this test in the short time it's been happening. The shots themselves were interesting profiles, I found them not overly sweet, and a milky/creamy body. Excited see how this gs continue to develop & would love to hear more in-depth thoughts from you!
Yes James I’d like to see more on this. In fact, more on low waste/environmental impact and cost saving in coffee in general, for businesses and for making coffee at home.
Yes please. Dig more Mr. James
Hi James, I would love to see you dig in and play with this new approach to brewing. I have always appreciated your videos because they are straightforward and informative (obviously your production is also really nice). I trust your methods and taste and would feel quite comfortable having you pioneer an espresso revolution.
Instead of paper filters I would like to experience the result when using stainless steel filters with different mesh sizes. I found when using the aeropress that I could get better results (my opinion) when using a 100 mesh stainless filter instead of paper, as there were more fats and flavor. The screen can be cut easily and doesn't come apart, so there is no need for an outside rim like is seen on some stainless filters. eBay is a wonderful source for screens of various sizes that can be cut to size. Maybe I will try this in my Flair when making espresso?
Hi US. I'm waiting on a new machine so unable to try atm. Did you pursue this & experiment? One of the things I will give a go is putting filter paper on top of the puck and leaving the bottom alone. Increasing the temp a tad to compensate.
Agreed. I don't like the waste of adding a paper filter to every shot. Also, I prefer the texture of a metal filter vs paper filter that removes body and oils.
I’d love to see your take on the whole process start to finish! It’s always interesting for me to see the boundaries of what we know being pushed. Did Scott not have the astringency before that day/ do you think it’s possible to get rid of those kind of defects in a shot with that high extraction?
The EG1 was producing a ton of fines (confirmed by a particle-size distribution machine nearby at WOC) and it was challenging to avoid astringency above 25%. I pulled a few shots much higher without astringency, which I'm guessing benefitted from a lucky combination of good puck prep + unusually little clumping compared to that of other shots I pulled at WOC
Love your work 💚
Yesss! Please explore this method more.
I did try it. I think interesting is the right word. It was enjoyable and I'd love some more in depth opinions on it. At the decent stand I even used my own beans on the stand but obviously couldn't touch the grind setting. It worked surprisingly well but the shot tasted under extracted (which is surprising considering the how fine it was ground and the blooming method used).
Hi! I watched this video and had just watched a video here on CZcams of Barista Hustle's lecture on extraction at Assembly Coffee London. The whole thing (as well as the fact that this high extraction coffee tasted good) sounded really counter-intuitive and I'd love to more of your thoughts on it. Thank you for all the great content!
Hell yes I would like to watch your video about it! I will try it myself too
Yes! This is very, very interesting! :D
Any video from you my good sir is a video worth watching. Love everything you talk about! I just love the way you talk and the way you describe things. Your ability to communicate is amazing. I mean.... your voice (and face!) is really hot too, but that is besides the point! XD
I think this is really interesting, and I'd love to see it more explored!
love to hear more about this
Guess I'll try to make a mock version of that today.
love it. very interested in all of this. paper filters definitely getting a try
This idea is super interesting!
Very interested in learning more. This sounds like something I can try in my manual lever, since I have good control over the pressure profile.
I was just about to make my coffee.. Perfect timing
Remélem jó lett! 😉 Régen találkoztunk
@@balintvaray5924 a virág forma még nem megy, de az íz ok! Tény és való!
That perspective on higher extraction with less coffee is interesting. Definitely worth looking into
Im just happy to see at the back the exact v60 that i also have. I always thought world barista champions never use such, that it was too mediocre for them. Now i have a new respect for my v60. Thank you.
Yes it is interesting! It help so much for us who wants to learn more about espresso
Thanks for the video!
Just did a layman's version of this, curring up a senseo pod en using the paper in my Gaggia Classic for a 14g shot. Evened out the flow rate a bit during the shot, bit softer tasting shot (in my probably wildly inaccurate estimation) and a more compressed puck came out. Will keep on experimenting with this a bit.
James,
I really enjoy your channel. Here are a couple of things that I feel you put a lot of work into and should be proud of
1. Video Production Audio, Camera Quality, Audio, Editing
2. You present your ideas and really excel at genuinely provoking thought and call for discussion.
@@jameshoffmann But... your hair is too meticulously groomed! I can't trust you fully... lul