Dear Evangelicals: I can't pretend that your worldview makes sense anymore - Jamin Coller
Vložit
- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Today I spoke with Jamin Coller, who grew up as a pastor's kid and became a worship pastor himself for 25 years before ultimately deconverting as he examined the truth claims of Christianity.
We touched on many topics, including:
• Getting "saved" but repeatedly recommitting his life to Jesus to be confident that his salvation was absolutely certain.
• Experiencing cycles of "spiritual OCD" revolving around guilt, repentance, renewal, sinning again, and falling back into guilt.
• Seeing that Christian testimonies are extremely biased and do not prove that the Christian worldview is correct.
• Being strongly urged to not associate much with non-Christians or listen to their perspectives, and to instead stayed extremely sheltered and ignorant of other views.
• How using the "outsider test for faith" on other versions of Christianity, and religion in general, leads to the conclusion that people are often clinging to a worldview based on how they were indoctrinated, community pressure, and their feelings, instead of whether the claims are actually true.
• Being intensely shamed and demeaned by loved ones for asking hard questions about the Christian worldview, and ultimately facing extreme passive-aggressive shunning for deconverting.
• Being shocked at rampant anti-intellectualism in Christianity.
• Understanding that there have been many divergent understandings of the Yahweh and Jesus characters, and Christians are often referring to only one of those understandings and simply ignoring the rest.
• Watching the endless versions of Christianity continually try, over time, to adapt and evolve their messages to cultural sensitivities and politics, while consistently disparaging and fighting each other.
• The importance of helping kids get all the information possible to make worldview decisions, and to ensure they feel empowered in their autonomy to make the best decisions for themselves as they grow up, without threats of shunning or hell.
Many thanks to Jamin for sharing his story and insights!
_________________________________________
Connect with Jamin!
Jamin's books on Amazon:
www.amazon.com/stores/author/...
Jamin's websites:
FindingGodDespiteReligion.com
AlmostACult.com
MilestonesMusic.net
LearnPianoLive.com
CZcams:
@LearnPianoLive
@jamincoller
_________________________________________
Please subscribe to my other channels (many more channels and videos coming soon!)
linktr.ee/harmonicatheist
_________________________________________
Tim may be reached on FB at: harmonictim
Or by email at: harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
_________________________________________
Your support for my channel, Harmonic Atheist, is very appreciated.
One time
PayPal (preferred): paypal.me/harmonictim
Venmo: @harmonicatheist
Zelle email: harmonicatheist@yahoo.com
GoFundMe: www.gofundme.com/f/help-tim-s...
Monthly
/ harmonicatheist
Thanks!
--Tim
_________________________________________
Ending music by Eyal Raz, "Friends"
• Friends
_________________________________________
"I can't pretend that your worldview makes sense anymore"
That is how I felt when I researched the Christianity that I was raised in and found out that I could no longer believe the claims based on the lack of good and sufficient evidence that is missing.
Thanks, great show.
Yeah - that was Tim's title, so I can't take credit for it, but it resonates for sure.
“Committed my life to Christ at 5 (“got saved”) then spent the rest of my life recommitting my life to Christ over and over again like a good evangelical Christian”
Wow! I remember that and can relate so well….what a miserable turmoil of a life
Yeah. Sorry. What a terrible waste of resources :/
I went through it until I finally realized at, 70 years old, that I had been fighting myself and fighting truth for my entire life. I can't wait to read this book!
"There's a lot to be lost by being honest with yourself - I just don't have the personality to endure that for very long." Exactly how I have felt the past year.
That's beautiful. The fellowship of the honest. ❤❤
What ever is lost by being honest is a drop in the ocean compared with what is lost by being dishonest.
My favorite saying;
"When an honest man is shown to be wrong he can either choose to stop being wrong or he can choose to stop being honest"
@@sulas548 I like it. I want to add the option that he can choose to be honest about his dishonesty. I think this is the best of Christians and scientists alike. General relativity and quantum mechanics are probably both at least a little flawed because they conflict with each other, but we're going to admit that and keep pretending like they're right for now, since we don't seem to have a better option at the moment.
Amazing to me all the worship pastors who have deconstructed. I’m an Exvangelical Worship Pastor myself. This comforts me very much to see others out there have had the same experience in church as I have.
Now, if only societies would take away the money incentive of tax-free income, then there would be many, many more leaving and not enticed to go into it.
@@Venusbabe66 statistics say by the year 2050 there will be more non-believing skeptical non-religious people in the U.S. than people of faith. I’ve a theory that the next ten year the religious right will fight like crazy because they see the writing on the wall as well. After all the “Boomers” die the younger generation will not carry on with superstitious beliefs and embrace science and reason over religious tradition. Hasten the day.
When I was 16 I had a born again experience. I am now an agnostic/Buddhist. My question is, has there been any studies on what causes a born again experience?
Yeah - It's always nice to know you're not alone.
@elzoog I don't know of any studies about it, but I would suggest a sense of longing and an earnest search for truth and belonging would be part of it. Especially at a young age when there is a lot of confusion about everything and where we fit into our world. The old eternal questions we've been battling with forever.
“I guess it really doesn’t matter what all that means.” I like this quote. I’m finding the more deconstructed I become, the less I care about biblical scholarship. Hearing people’s stories is always fascinating. The book though. Yawn. I care less & less about it or understanding why or how some dudes wrote it all those years ago.
I get that, what matters more as I gain Knowledge of the flaws of the bible are finding choice passages of contradictions and atrocities to expose the failure of Christian morality.
@@uncleanunicorn4571Christians don’t care and won’t see those or admit them so what’s the point in wasting time on it. Be free of it.
@@ancientflamesYou can say that about anything. Everything is "a waste of time" but that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
I can relate. The truth is, I'm genuinely interested in the Bible so much more now that I don't think it's inspired, infallible, and inerrant. As a perfect book, the Bible is a non-starter. As a historical phenomenon, the Christian church is wildly significant and compelling topic to me.
@@JaminCollerhave you heard of the Piso Project? Or Piso Christ? The dots all join together.
It's so weird when you realize people in the thief in the night have lives outside of that movie.
I know the son of one of the guys involved in producing “A Thief in the Night.” What a sh*tshow of a movie.
@@kjmav10135 and *traumatising* beyond belief!! No pun intended, although it applied decades later! Lol
This guy keeps saying he’s “not smart enough.” Dude: You’re definitely smart enough. A big part of leaving Evangelicalism is realising that you ARE smart enough to question and to state what seems evident to you. That you can trust yourself. The Evangelical Church does everything it can to keep you from trusting yourself and your impressions. You’re smart enough. Really.
Smart , and funny too. 👍
Thank you. I accept that. I don't know if my intellectual humility is an artifact of my previous Fundamentalism or an invitation into engagement. (It's probably both.) I know a lot of smart Christians, and there are plenty of stupid non-Christians too :) So I'm uncomfortable with the assertion I often hear that smartness is the reason we Ex-vangelicals have gotten out. In my case, "intellectual honesty" resonates more strongly. But honestly, I'm not really sure what the ingredients are, so I hesitate to claim anything that looks like a pedestal. Regardless of my intellect, my ideas should stand on their own, and where they don't, I think I'd like to find that out, sooner than later.
@@FoursWithin Aw shucks. 😘
Yes, Jamin is very smart and funny. Also a great parent - I appreciate hearing about what he does for his children.
Aw thanks,@@exchurchmouse Hopefully I can do better than my parents did, just like my parents tried to do. 🤞🤞❤❤
49:27 “If I see my kid holding a gun, it’s my duty to tackle them and push it away from them”
If we’re god’s children, it was his duty to protect us from the serpent in the garden. According to Christians he’s omniscient….which means he knew exactly how that event would play out
Yahweh : the all knowing bumbler
...and He made the gun and the bullets.
@@owenallen5733 Granted - God has no duties. Technically, I don't have any "duties" to my children either, if a 'duty' is a thing I'm forced to do. But if my 'duty' is defined by what feels like the right moral choice, I have a lot of duties in this life. Without more perspective, it feels like the right moral choice - if I was in God's position - would be to keep Adam and Eve from bringing the curse of eternal damnation on all of humanity. I think the fundamentalist response is, "You're NOT in God's position, and you DON'T have enough perspective!" I agree with both of those. Perhaps it was the loving thing to do. But since I only have my perspective and I'm limited to my imagination of positions I'm not in, if I'm really honest...I have to admit that it SEEMS like God had a 'duty' - a moral imperative - to act differently than the fundamentalist interpretation of the Genesis story gives us. ...right? Show me what I'm missing. Maybe it's just more faith or trying harder, but I feel like I'm trying pretty hard, as I have been for decades.
@@JaminColler I have basically the same problems with the story.
I would add that God being the infallible master craftsman of the universe has no excuse for sin appearing in his creation.
How would he not know what would happen when setting all in motion.
Also it was frustrating hearing you repeat that your brain was broken. Asking questions is how we learn things, to call that broken is perverse.
Dear Tim,
Every one of these presentations gives me so much more hope for the future. Every one of the folks who have been on these videos have been so human, yet so striving to be better and understand this world.
These conversations are the true "communion" that I think we all wish to experience. And through your work (while working through your troubles too!) I do believe the world is becoming a better place.
Agreed !!! Jamin's mind is beautiful.
Best regards, love and wishes for a much better 2024 !
Thanks for the kind words. These conversations ARE the true "communion" that I think we all wish to experience. ❤❤
@@JaminCollerI agree with the comment above. I’ve been listening to Tim for a while. I deconverted 3 years ago and it’s still extremely helpful to hear stories like yours. Im grateful for sharing your story Jamin, this is definitely my favorite interview on Tims channel thus far.
Wishing you and your family for a loving, healthy, peaceful new year. 🎉💪🏼❤️
@@logicsetsyoufree9052 Thank you! Same to you and yours!
It's been just over half my life ago now when I was in the thick of Christianity, believing and participating. It's somewhere hard to remember what it was like having moved on so far past it, but it's like scar tissue and it lingers somehow, old fractures in the bones, faults in the foundations so to speak. I remember being a generally pretty happy go lucky kid, teenage years were difficult in their own right, but church and youth group and the burden of Christianity and the cross notably made it a lot worse. The cognitive dissonance and burden of believing you are a sinner but that you are also saved and needing to be in constant prayer. It's really hard to say how things cause and effect, but it gave me neurosis and high strung mania, i knew i was experiencing mental health issues and my mind was buckling, but I didn't know why, i just thought it was innate, but it was definitely the environment and the passive training recorded from bible teachings or perhaps more specifically Conservative Christian social conditioning. Then there's criticisms, fruits of the spirits, if you really believe you'd be calm and put faith in Jesus. Okay cool, no problem, but then come the whisperings that you're sinful and don't take your faith seriously. Where does all this come from, how is everyone else in touch with God and has a free voucher to air such grievances? Who am I really satisfying or trying to satisfy if God is always there but never really there? The only apparent and evident sliver of god seems is in the collectively projected wishes and social control mechanisms of highly morally questionable congregations. God wasn't out in the world, or in space, or at home etc, not in the sunset or nature, it was in the mind of congregants that used the idea of God for power and their own ego satisfaction, to stop the holes in their own minds. Meanwhile, casting out the teenagers that came of age like they were demons in the pigs. Funny how that all worked. All the kids that grew up in that church and had been saved all their lives were the true believers. But the kids that were new to town, the kids that still watched secular TV shows, played video games, or listened to music on the radio, they were the sinners. Okay? But we accepted Jesus, and that's why our parents brought us here, because it's church. Christian music, some of it was okay, but why should I replace my entire media consumption with Veggies Tales and DC talk? How's that any different? I'm just a kid. No you're a sinner! Okay, well, I'm feeling pretty outcast, I'm going to stick to my secular music that identifies with that, since I'm a sinner and no works nor faith can do anything about that. There was a whole lot more to it than that, but enter the thoughts and doubts that THEY give you. They hand it out like candy!
Then I found Matthew 18:6 and felt vindicated.
"If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
They're sinners too and nothing can save them, especially if they crush the faith of young people or people new to the faith. And that's when things went tipsy turvy. So they're wrong in their actions and beliefs and nothing can stop them, not even the scripture or conviction or God or Jesus himself? Okay, whoa. So they're wrong about everything? Are they wrong about their faith and salvation? What do they even believe in? The Iraq war and less taxes? No abortion? No gays? No secular music? No laughter, no dancing, no fun, no carbs, no gluten, no saturated fats? What is all this noise!? What is all this nonsense?
One day I realized this "faith" was destroying my personal identity, my humanity, and it was also destroying my faith. What if it was doing all this to others too? My world was smaller then but it got larger in that moment too. So if this is the way all the conservatives and Christians believe in Texas. Is this fundamentalist conservatism as it relates to Christianity and politics, is this a scourge in the earth? Why are we at war in Iraq exactly? For those Christians it was a crusade on the evil infidel, justice was being dropped from the sky, from the barrel of guns and tanks, it was in the state issued paychecks they were giving to the troops that you needed to support and NOT being home. If you didn't say Merry Christmas you were a terrorist. If you questioned the war you were Osama's devil child. Etc etc. And on and on and on.
I walked away. I saved myself from the cult of the anti Christ. They don't believe in life or goodness. They are the Pharisees Jesus opposed. They're the publicly praying hypocrites. They are the dashers of children on the rocks. They were the minions of Satan corrupting the church and the faith in earth!
I fully rejected the faith and all churches and became a fire branded militant atheist anti theist. Hitchen's book came out in 2004 or 2005 I think. I gradually read on, reached Daniel Dennet eventually. The years went on and I made a lot of peace internally and with the ignorance of so many believers. Buckets of philosophy and religious studies later, I respect religion, but I still mourn deeply for the ongoing tragedy it enables and allows to persist in humanity and in particular with politics. It's the one area that is off limits to criticism, yet it is the foundation for so many problems in society. But religion could be so much more, it could help so many people if it could approach itself and it's purview with some humility about that. The Christians should've been the staunchest anti war voices. They should be advocating for a richer welfare system and equal society, bringing Jesus to earth through themselves. They think we're the problem because we've turned away, not realizing that it's their corrupted faith that is the reason why we've turned away, and they allow their faith to fester as the opposite of what it's supposed to be. Yet they still go to church and pretend to be righteous and chosen.
Humanity has almost insurmountable problems, and religion, or the very widespread malpractice of it at least, is one of its cornerstones. Hell will remain on earth so long as any idiot with a Bible in hand can found a church tax free; and so long as the Catholic church is allowed function as a world institution instead of as a living museum. I don't believe in eradicating faith, but I do believe something out to be done about it being in the public square and so confused with and intertwined with politics. But these are paradoxical things, and they're going to take eons to sort out. We can tolerate them and love with them too, but they sure as hell make that as hard as possible. Jesus would call us to tolerate the intolerant, and I like to believe the advent of atheism and non religiosity bear the true spirit of the cross today. We have to be long suffering I suppose.
My dad, 30 years on, still listening to creationism videos, still aspiring to be a Ken Ham in his own right with a small ministry but towards Catholic hispanics. At least he shuts off the nonsense when I enter the room, out of an unacknowledged shame and humility he will likely never know or be saved from. If Jesus is real, he needs to save us from the Christians and from Christianity!
Thank you Tim for your show, and thank you to all the guests, and thank you to all the listeners and supporters. It's ironic and paradoxical, but THIS is God's work. Tim is a great human being! He's going places, and I hope he's embraced as one of our atheist leaders in the nation and the world, bringing calm compassion and sensibility to the world. So long as the fundamentalist continue self radicalizing and continue their production line of fresh non believers falling out of the corrupted faith, we will all be here to catch them and show them there's a chance for a better world, or at least a better life without lies baked into the foundations. Bless all of you! And happy new Year! It's going to be a crazy and significant year in history!
Everything you said is what I've been seeing and feeling. Thank you for putting it into words.
Wow. Thank you for baring your soul. The Christian radicals are having a profound effect on religion in America, only not in the way they hope. It’s really pulling back the curtain on the true nature of Christianity. I’m shocked at the vile nature that lies just under the surface. The mask is coming off.
Thanks for sharing. "If Jesus is real, he needs to save us from the Christians and from Christianity!" It seems this has been the case over and over throughout Christian history. They/we usually come along after a while. It's usually too little, and too late, but it seems to be a recurring predicament, where the possessors of God's moral laws for the world are constantly forced by the world to upgrade their morals.
Loved this interview Tim. Keep bringing it!
The church I was in held movie-nights where we watched "Thief in the night". I saw it multiple times at different congragations and it caused so much fear and stess. There was always the "what if I get left behind?" fear. And they used it to control you, everything was always about creating fear.
It's weird to hear about other people having heard of the movie. I agree with you about fear. It may not have been the explicit goal of all the teachings (especially from about the 90's on, when "fire and brimstone" became a punchline in many Evangelical circles), but it was definitely the premise for nearly everything that made up the religion. As I put in my intro to the Hell section in my book: "I’m actually on the side of the fundamentalists on this topic. So many faux-deconstructionists are just regular Christians who have thrown out the inconvenient theology of sin and Hell simply because it feels icky. That’s not how Truth works. You can’t say, “I wish God was or wasn’t [x], and so I declare Him to be so.”
The Bible clearly lays out the theology of sin and Hell, from Genesis through Revelation. Dozens of verses like Mark 16:16 state the situation unequivocally:
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” - Jesus
In fact, New York Times best-selling author and the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries, Randy Alcorn, claims that Jesus spoke about Hell even more than Heaven, and that would make sense, since without it, there is no climax to the story of the universe. Despite the wishful thinking of the Christian Universalists, without Hell there is no need for a Savior; no redemption. There is no emergency that would necessitate the brutal crucifixion of God’s only begotten Son, suffering the universe’s most extreme torture to save us from…a nap? No. Without Hell there is no Gospel message; no “Good News” that our sinful souls can be saved from eternal damnation and our Spirit can instead live forever with God.
@@JaminColler In my country, "Thief in the Night" was very well known, I can't think of any people I knew that didn't see the movie multiple times. You could bring it up in just about any conversation with anyone, and they've seen it at least once.
@@pinky9440 Wild. What country was that?
@@JaminColler South Africa
I was curious about that series, talk about driving fear and anxiety into people
The rambling thoughts in my head as a kid was like: ( I drove my mom crazy by interrogating her on the discrepancies in the Bible)
It never made sense to me that god sent his only son to die for our sins… to save us from HIM sending us to hell for giving Free will but also god knows our destiny- he has a plan for us …
If Jesus died on the cross for our sins why do people go to hell?
If Jesus died for our sins, why do we still have painful childbirth?
I'm impressed. That last one only recently landed with me - if the curse of sin is lifted, why aren't the curses of sin lifted?! How old were you when you gave up trying to make it make sense?
If you die, do you want to spend eternity with Jesus or not ? The people who don't, go to hell. That's it. Jesus is there to save your soul after death, not give you an easy life on earth.
Cracked me up. Thanks.
I feel like I relate to Jamin as an agnostic. Thank you for hosting and interviewing him!
Very enjoyable interview. Love hearing Jamin’s perspective, especially when he’s laughing about it and doesn’t take himself too seriously. Great job Tim keeping the conversation interesting. One of my favorite episodes. 👍🏼
Thanks - that's one of the highest compliments you could give me. "Doesn't take himself too seriously," is one of my life's goals. And yes, Tim did a great job of interviewing and editing 👍👍
I love this dudes personality. I hope he makes a channel dedicated to sharing his thoughts on religion and stuff like that. Great energy and easy to listen to :)
Listening to Jamin reminds me of what a small world evangelicalism is, and how grateful I am that I got out of that bubble. Our humanity can be beautiful sometimes.🥰
Agreed. Holocaust survivor Victor Frankl said, “A man's suffering is similar to the behavior of a gas. If a certain quantity of gas is pumped into an empty chamber, it will fill the chamber completely and evenly, no matter how big the chamber. Thus suffering completely fills the human soul and conscious mind, no matter whether the suffering is great or little. Therefore the "size" of human suffering is absolutely relative.” I think the same is true of worldviews. For each of us, the world is only as big as our minds. To an ant, the world is roughly the size of an ant hill, and to an Evangelical, the universe is only as big as the Christian narrative.
Jamin... the first solo flight is an amazing experience. I no longer have my pilots license but enjoyed it for 15 years. Don't give up.
Thanks! Will do :)
Tim, new viewer here. Thank you so much for your channel. I was neck deep into evangelism starting in 9th grade. I started to see cracks in my mid 20s. Fully broke away in my late 20s. It’s been 35 years and I haven’t looked back. God did not strike me where he knew it would hurt the most to bring me back into the fold, much to the consternation of my pastor. I still have trouble saying that I’m an atheist out loud. Guess I’m still afraid of being struck by lightning 😂
Interestingly, it’s never the supposedly ubiquitous blessings of Christianity that deconstructionists are afraid they’ll miss. It’s not the love of Christ or an unconditionally accepting community, or the answered prayers. They never say,
“I would leave Christianity, but I’m afraid my finances will tank if I stop reaping the benefits of tithing to the church!”
Apparently, those things don’t show up frequently enough to be as compelling as the threat of eternal damnation. The good news is, it’s NOT difficult for you to overlook most threats; just the threats of your particular past. None of us are afraid of the threats of any of the other religions.
• For de-converting Muslims, it’s equally difficult to overcome the threats in Islam.
• For de-converting Mormons, it’s equally difficult to overcome the threats in Mormonism.
• For de-converting Scientologists, it’s equally difficult to overcome the threats in Scientology.
So, the atheists answer the fearful Christian,
“Well, you’re not opting into Islam or Mormonism or Scientology or Santa Claus or any of the millions of other magical people, ‘just in case’ their threats are real. And they’re not opting into yours either, because they’re just as earnestly afraid of theirs as you are of yours. So I’m just opting out of all the same fears you are…plus one.”
As easy as that is to understand quickly, it’s nearly impossible to feel quickly. Escaping narcissistic parents, abusive ex-lovers, toxic work environments, and cults - long after the benefits expire and the promises are no longer believable, people almost always stick around until they can overcome the fear of threats. It seems humans are just predisposed to fear the negative more than pursue the positive.
That doesn’t mean that Christianity is wrong, but it does mean that tangible fear, deep in your gut, is not necessarily an indication you should turn back. Sometimes it just means that your oppressor has finally run out of reasons you shouldn’t leave.
@@JaminColler Oddly enough, they never tried to get me back. I guess they figured out I was a lost cause. I didn’t fear their angry god anymore. Thank you for your insightful comment. Happy New Year.
Yeah - this is more unintentional arrogance embedded in their position. They imagine they are merely the messengers, so the hurt they dole out is between the recipient and the Sender. They have nothing to apologize for, and they have no reason to chase you. And they have no reason to worry that their church will fade into nonexistence because it’s Gods job to sustain the church. The people who leave are inconsequential to their mission. To the shunned and ignored, it feels like the hurt must be intentionally hateful, but I think the world’s greatest atrocities are committed with clean consciences.
@@JaminColler I'm part way through listening to you being interviewed, which is great so far, but l have to say that, the Thief in the Night series caused me so much fear that l became a christian as a young teenager because of it and now, at 61, l have only just recently overcome the fears those movies created in various ways..they were so impactful. I think the fear is the absolute driving force behind christianity. Fear, guilt and shame. I'm so thrilled you broke free, that is *huge* given your position, but how liberating! The truth really does set us free, lolz. 😄😄 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@QuestionThingsUseLogic Right?! There are so many anti-Christian, Christian sentiments like this. If we really followed Christ, we'd follow Him directly out the church doors.
And yes - the fears are almost always the most persistent part of religions, cults, and abusive relationships.
Guys - this was soooooooo good. I finally finished this interview and can relate so much to how Jamin thinks. Truly refreshing listening to a curious brain and his stream of consciousness. This is prob one of my faves. I went through my own trauma this year that combined an emergency caregiving trip, the passing of my father, a burial service and funeral service where as always I was the scapegoat. Imagine giving a eulogy to the person you loved most in the world while the rest of the family looked at you in disgust. And some were former pastors accused of SA. You cannot make this shiz up. I think my heart literally broke during this time (discovered that it actually is a real thing). During the eulogy I dropped a lot of lines from the Bible that I'm sure when over their arrogant heads. To them I am not skinny enough, rich enough, pretty enough, Christian enough or at all and I am the scum on their shoe. Anyway, facing the reality of being the black sheep/scapegoat has led to so much healing. I am proudly me now which included a grief recovery program at a church, 2 womens bible studies because I needed to be around at least superficially nice people during this lonely journey, my BARDS community (most cant stand the church but seek God) and a ton of atheist channels. My journey is weird, non sensical to many, needs no labels and I LOVE it.
Thank you for this episode, it hit me deep and I just loved it!
So glad you enjoyed it! I'm sorry it was such a rough year for you! ❤❤ Not [trait] enough is a plague on our species. Janis Joplin said, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Probably not a complete definition, but it sure resonates a lot for us explorers, rejects, and wanderers.
@@JaminColler Explorers, rejects and wanderers unite!
@@BeccaNiederkrom1 ❤❤
Jamin, you are more than smart enough to take on CSL and Josh M. Thank you for your story.
Thanks :) Received ❤
This was really fascinating. I resonated with so many things said by each of you.
Thank you both for sharing!
At one point it was said that you don’t have a religion to offer to others. I wanted to say, “Why does it need to be another religion? Couldn’t Secular Humanism and Philosophy replace Religion by helping us to do good for humanity and the earth without needing to believe in a Myth?”
@marlenemeyer9841 Exactly!
❤ Yes! Secular Humanism! That's exactly what I was thinking as I was listening! Imagine if every clergyman decided to be like Alain De Botton and "preach"/teach in churches like Alain does within the amazing School Of Life organisation he created - learning about the philosophy lessons the great philosophers of history have taught together with practical lessons about dealing with our humanity better. 🌎🌿❤
Thanks for watching! I absolutely agree. I think Secular Humanism is compatible with pretty much all the religions that don't violate the tenants of Humanism. Perhaps as an analogy, if all the religions are sports, you and I are just proposing everyone exercise. In this sense, for anyone dedicated to having a "sport", that's cool, but I don't have a better sport to offer. If asked, I personally think sports are obviously silly pretend games made up probably to satiate an inexplicable desire for play, and an internal drive to manifest hierarchical relationships or some crap like that. But whatever. I can see the draw, and I'm not necessarily anti-sport. I'm trying to have a different discussion about exercise. (I hope this doesn't seem to minimize the atrocities of the religions by comparing them to games. I was only trying to demonstrate the category difference. I'm anti-un-humanism, and to the degree that the religious can uphold the ethical treatment of our cohabitants, I don't fight against their continued existence, and even find value in them, though I agree with Tim that those who can't put aside their religious presuppositions are disqualified for participation in many types of conversations.)
I have a religion to offer, but I don't think the world needs Buddhism, just to be more "Buddhist" have compassion, care, for other beings, care about philosophical wisdom, stuff like that. Don't need to convert, just be better.
@@TheMahayanistThank you. I have stolen and benefitted a lot from your religion already. May you be well.
Very good video! Having lived that life, what a silly thing looking back that you're constantly in a state of repentance, always scared there's some little sin hiding away in your otherwise filthy soul that would damn you to hell for an eternity. What a relief to know that it's all bullshit.
The word "silly" resonates with me. As you can probably tell, I try to be a pretty empathetic guy, but I still have such a hard time getting my brain back to many of the ideas it called home for so many decades. So many fundamentals that I can't even state with a straight face now. The brain is fascinating.
This makes me wonder how many worship leaders and Pastors who are currently active in their churches are having serious doubts and questions right now but not at the point of recognizing it to themselves. These are definitely different times. We can get so much information from the internet now. Back in the early 1990s sharing this kind of information would be almost impossible. I am certain that deconversions will accelerate as time goes on. I also want to add some thought on the movie “A Thief in the Night” as Jamin revealed that his dad was in that movie. I saw that movie as 10 year old and it freaked me out. I remember coming home from school and my mother was nowhere to be found and I thought I was left behind! It caused many nightmares and anxiety! I truly believed the movie for decades!
TONS! TONS of them. As a tiny microcosm: The only people who comment on my posts are a very few, bold Christians who condemn me for my questions. But then my private inbox is jam packed with deconstructionists - many full time ministers - thanking me for my posts, but aren’t willing to do so publicly. The church has an epidemic on their hands, and I don't even think they know or care. If it weren't for my wife, I might not have even published because I keep feeling like I'm the last one to the party, stating the obvious things that everyone already knows. But she assures me there are still Evangelical Fundamentalists who still believe this stuff. So this is the first 20 pages of my book - a plea for Christian leaders to wake up and stop with their arrogant dismissal of this "fad" of people leaving the church, and their abusive treatment of the intellectually honest:
"I am quite sure that, as dire as you consider the condition of the American church, the situation is exponentially worse, because I know exactly zero people outside your church who are secretly Christian, but I know scores of church-goers in your congregations with secret, growing doubts.
Worse yet, for each one of us who is brave enough to express our concerns, despite the ridicule and threats and disconnection, there are many more with the same concerns who stay silent…for now, until they join the thousands each week who slink out your back door, never to return, and never telling you why."
As for the movie, yeah - anyone who grew up Christian without that movie was cheating! Back when men were men and Christians were Christians, we REAL believers walked through the snow, uphill both ways, and we regularly wondered if we had been left behind. These snowflake Christians these days don't know what the REAL fear of the Lord feels like 😂😂
I used to pray for forgiveness every single morning, night, anytime I left the house, before every meal, and randomly through the day. All just incase I somehow died with sin in my heart.
And then you're praised for it, since 1 Thessalonians 5:17 says, "Pray continually."
I totally understand this. If you didn't pray constantly to be safe, if you left the house without putting on the armour of God, you will surely die. I was terrified that I would die and there would be something I didn't confess yet and are going straight to hell. I was not Catholic, but our church believed you have confess EVERY sin in front of a witness.
Great interview. Very genuine. 👍
John Dehlin from Mormon stories did his phd in psychology on Religious Scrupulousity. He would be a good guest if you can book him.
There is such an interesting humbleness that seems to come with these deconversion guests. Many seem really openminded and willing to admit “I don’t know. I don’t have all the answers anymore.” Perhaps it’s a byproduct of being constantly beaten down by a strict religious community and now being out there in the world without the crutch and support.
I find it interesting that you use the word interesting :) That's conspicuously non-committal. In my case, I think my open-mindedness is a byproduct of my personality and the long-term over-certainness that got overturned, proving to me that the feeling of certainty is not correlated with the possession of truth. ...but it might be from being beaten down too - I don’t know. I don’t have all the answers anymore. But what do you think - why does the humbleness interest you?
@@JaminColler I certainly DID NOT mean it in any way shape or form to be a criticism of you or any other guest. If anything I find it endearing and welcome and refreshingly honest. (I am perhaps a bit jaded by watching too many political chat show podcasts, and to a lesser degree religious themed podcasts, where obnoxious, arrogant, imperious certainty is a style people brand themselves with these days.) I think “I don’t know everything” shows maturity and a healthy mindset. It gets complicated when I consider that some of the open-mindedness may come from being beaten down by religion authorities, in the sense that we weren’t allowed to be certain of anything if it didn’t come from them. I was raised Catholic and obeying priestly authority was big in that world. I suppose I’m saying it’s a good thing to be open-minded, but maybe for some of us we are open-minded partly as a result of not good things. Probably none of this makes sense and for that I apologize. It’s a hard thing to put into words. But I’ll reiterate it is not at all a criticism. I appreciated your interview a lot. You have a very valuable story and voice.
@@JaminColler P. S. it also interests me for exactly what you described: overturned certainty and realizing certainty doesn’t necessarily mean truth.
@@EastSide-qc5oy Thanks :) And it made perfect sense. And I agree.
You find some great people to interview.
Nature is so beautiful it makes you believe in miracles.
Great Out Doors ❤
Yep! Whatever a miracle is, it's not more miraculous than what is available to us without miracles. We're here. It's pretty hard to top that. And then the universe does.
Everyone is born atheist.
Religion has to be taught.
Atheism doesn't have to be taught.
Once the mind virus has been caught then escaping superstitious beliefs has
to be taught.
I agree. But also...I think a great many hominids will inevitably wonder, "Wait - does my life really have to end?" or "What will happen to me when I die?" and we seem naturally desperate to cling to an answer that assuages our existential terrors. So as natural as atheism is, I think religion is equally...natural? ...unavoidable? Perhaps our rational brains evolved to process questions our emotional brains were - on average - not prepared to handle, and we've been trying to develop software to make the two compatible ever since. What do you think?
The words cult and religion are synonymous.
@@FoursWithin
The United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has done extensive research on brainwashing.
______
Parents/adults start brainwashing children with religion, when they are infants. Prior to them developing cognitive skills to object or opt out.
Religion is a means and ways to manipulate and control others emotionally, mentally, physically, verbally and financially; by imposing their religion's laws, rules, regulations and restrictions.
Religion is a means and ways to con, threaten, bully antagonize, harass and annoy others.
@@dianahill5116
I disagree with your opinion
No one is born an atheist
You have to have the knowledge of the God concept in order to accept or reject it
If anything we're all born Agnostics
If people think they need the threat of going to hell to not steal, kill, etc...does that really make someone a good person or just a monster on a leash?
I think "monster on a leash" is the premise of the worldview, rather than an insult. For anyone who appreciates the phrases "dirty rags" or "total depravity" or "no not one", I think "monster on a leash" is actually too kind an expression of our state of being without Jesus.
What an incredible sentence. Monster on a leash. Yikes. Thanks.
I have zero desire to believe. I couldn’t live that way. Took way too long to start to get out of it and I was terrified of Santa.
This is s new and a very interesting approach in how deal and relate to rigid beliefs ...
Thanks. I'd be curious to hear more.
This is horrible. I am so thankful that my family, who mostly believe in god, have not and will not let me go because I am an atheist. I have no idea how Jarmin could even entertain the idea that there is any good to be had in Christianity. We all certainly do have our own process.
Thanks. It's not about the value in Christianity, but in the Christians. I think it's Sam Harris who proposes the thought experiment about what to do with Der Fuhrer if you could reprogram his brain to be "normal". The problem is the worldview (and it's very real effects in relationship to the world and other humans). I don't know what the difference is - if any - between a person and their thoughts, but I still idealistically choose to believe that I can't tell when someone is unsalvageable. Certainly, I looked unsalvageable, not that long ago. And I've done some very evil things because of my Christianity. Apparently...surprisingly...it was separable from "me", whatever that means. I hope the same for many other people, that they - to put it in Christological terms - "see the light" even while "living in their sinful ways" and "come to the saving knowledge of [un-]Jesus". Perhaps most of all, my brother. 😢 I'd get mad at Jesus if He were still alive. I'd get mad at my brother if I didn't love him so much. It's all just so f-ing unfortunate. But at the end of the day, if I roll the dice and trade places with any other random being in history, I'm pretty f-ing fortunate to end up as Jamin. 🤷♂❤ My time is running out on this planet, and I think my time is better spent playing board games with my kids and connecting with random strangers on CZcams about our shared experience, than wishing that things weren't as they are.
I enjoyed the interview. Well done Tim!🎉😊Loved many things Jamin said: 1) First things first: No finger pointing, that only the others are/were wrong and he is the sole victim. He does see the big picture. He also failed. True! 2) Like the great Frenchman Montaigne and the Spanish-American Santayana Jamin is able to concede, that a lot of people still need some kind of religion. All societies failed, which tried to exclude Religion in total. Some people are less intelligent, are less curious and need comfort. 3) Love all his uncertainties, which he is able to endure with a smile. Not many people can. Montaignes "Que sais je?" is lived. Congratulation! Smart guy🎉❤
Thank you. Quite the compliments! Received and appreciated ❤
As much as I am relieved to be free of Christianity and Christians, even after 9 years since deconverting, I still miss the very early honeymoon days as a Christian.
I miss the community. I miss the joy. I miss being part of a group. I miss the potluck dinners.
I miss some of the beautiful, deeply spiritual people.
I went through a stage where I wished that I could believe again
But I can't ignore everything I learnt
I went on a very long desperate search to find something to replace the community I had lost
But I couldn't make myself believe in any other philosophies that were just as unbelievable as Christianity
Yeah - it's a great tragedy that so much love is withheld and so much unnecessary suffering is endured just because a person chooses to believe or stop believing a particular historical narrative. I'm sorry for your pain. I hope you find a fellowship of fellow honest explorers soon. ❤❤
This was an amazing conversation. Thank you guys for sitting down and delving into this the way that you did. ❤
Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it.
Absolutely GREAT interview Tim!! Way to end the year brother 🤙🏼❤️
This is why I love the Vedanta Society: One of the first things they said to me was to ask questions! They want questions. Djana Yoga (The path of knowledge) really catered to my mind. I hope Jamin finds happiness. Oh, I was Protestant as a child and Non-denominational most of my early adult life. Finally admitted my atheism and it suited me for over a decade. Yet somehow I have ended up as a Vedantist. It’s a wacky world. Be happy.
I need a t-shirt with your last 6 words :) Thanks for watching
@@JaminColler no problem, dude 😁
Ramakrishna and Vivekananda great beings of Vedanta. 😊
@@trilithon108They have provided a great resting place for my mind and heart. :)
Edited because of autocorrect lol
I am very sorry to hear what your faith has put you guys through I was not aware that the bible was so corrupted, being brought up in a different faith where there was no devil and no hell I was spared those beliefs. I am not even sure I would have pursued religion if I had your experience I hope you find peace. tim it must be not easy to be married to someone who is still a believer. I all-wise enjoy you and your guest's honesty, and your efforts in helping people to see. I wonder if most people have ever read the entire bible?
Most people have definitely not read the entire Bible. Even most believers don't read much of the Bible
Christianity relies on Paster to teach them the bible that's unfortunate it makes it easier for people to be lazy and uninformed@@FoursWithin
Thanks for watching. I have read the entire Bible many, many times. For me, it wasn't so much what I read, but the lens through which I read it. You see what you want to see. You don't see what you need to not see.
The psychological aspect that I’m observing right away is that there is a drive to think there has to be a Religion, because “I’m not smart enough”, which has been ingrained in us by religion itself. The thing is we are smart enough and we are good enough, and that’s, I think, a huge scary aspect of totally deconverting for some of us.
Yep - for me, the willingness to admit that I'm good was one of the biggest hurdles. The "smart" references might just be a branding thing - I'm not sure yet. I know I'm pretty smart, but so many members of the 'angry atheist' brand (for lack of a better term) seem to deride theists for their inferior brainpower, when it seems obvious to me that the issue is not intellect, but internal honesty. And if I'm really honest...this whole thing kinda falls apart.
Listening to Jamin is comforting; I can relate to his experience and how he feels about Christianity. I cannot say that I do not believe in God but I know that there is something bigger than me that keeps the universe running. I am probably deconstructing but know that I will never return to organized religion.
Thanks for sharing. We’re all on our own path…or at least we should be. Glad you enjoyed it.
Totally agree that Jamin should start a CZcams channel about this stuff. He has a way with words and a very likeable personality and sense of humor. - Great interview and looking forward to the book.
Thanks for the kind words! The book is out! Thank you for the support ❤❤
Jamin Coller is the perfect type of atheist. His religion "of Love" seems genuine, and I'm so glad for this. Many Atheists (me included at times) simply want to "shove truth" into people's faces, without true concern for the "damage" that truth can actually do. "Truth" is not always productive, especially when it's abrupt. Just as you wouldn't tell your kids "all the things adults know" at young age -- you let them learn it gradually, because you love them.
I'm of the opinion that Religion/God/Spirituality is a common human-wired need, where many (most?) of us might operate better with "false spirituality" than they would with pure scientific atheism. In my arrogance, I tend to me more like Tim Mills -- wanting to aggressively "deconvert" people. But not sure he's really genuine in his Love motivation here (and the same criticism goes for me, I tend to want to shove truth in people's faces, without enough concern for what it might cause in their lives if they realized my truth).
Tim - I don't know you, but some things you've said in the two videos I've watched - has given me this general/loose assessment of you. (i.e. you are more like me) But in truth, I'm trying to be more like Jamin Coller -- be OK with people believing false-things, so long as it promotes the "religion of Love/Charity/Giving"... I don't profess to know what's best for other people, even though my actions sometimes indicate otherwise. :)
Tim, thank you, as always.
Love is always the answer!! To me, religion is just another means of controlling the masses. Life is a journey, and I, too, have found my way out of Christianity. So appreciate your perspectives and conversation!
So glad you enjoyed it. ❤ thanks for watching and sharing
I really appreciate this interview. Jamin's views are closer to mine than the author of The God Virus. It's always soothing to hear from someone who is more fluid.
I was always told that I have an "interesting" view on religion and I would say that I am a Natalieist, in other words, I believe what and how I believe. Now, I'm very comfortably an agnostic atheist. I believe in love. I don't believe in any deities. And I want my kids to feel free to choose their own path - religious or not - whether or not I agree with it.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for the word "Natalieist" :) How do you define the love you believe in?
Love - caring for yourself and others; being kind to yourself and others. That's pretty much it. ❤
Another really great podcast.
I can really relate to this guy. I am always looking for a way to believe again but deep down you know what the truth is.
Yep. This is why I made my lists (which turned into a book) - there are so many opportunities to question yourself, so many ex-Christians return to Christianity for the same reasons a battered wife returns to her abuser. ...which is probably why so many therapists recommend those women make lists of their own. 🤷♂ Not gonna go back unless these things are addressed.
(I feel compelled to add: I do know a couple ex-Christians who have gone back after their deconstruction, after addressing their lists, but it's always been for the specific benefits they want, and with a new set of boundaries they didn't have before.)
@@JaminColler that's interesting, definitely made a list before about a bad relationship I had with a guy. And it was advice I got from a therapist. Look forward to getting your book
This was fantastic as always
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching
i've watched scores of Tims interviews now and they are all very interesting but where Jamin has got to blows me away. this is the most profound interview i've watched at this stage. honest, loving, intelligent and i like the liminal space Jamin is in, like standing in a doorway watching this new life unfold but not anxious, just curious, a bit awe struck and at peace even though with leaving the room, and now being in the doorway, he has suffered. a beautiful interview. resonates.
Thanks so much for sharing the love back! I strive to be the person you describe 😂❤ I’m glad to be sharing this planet with you
i'm an ex pastors wife from an evangelical charismatic background. i've been deconstructing for a few years now but this is the first time i've said something publicly. i felt your narrative deeply and looking forward to reading your book. my v long marriage didn't survive the deconstruct but we are still friends. we share children and grandchildren so try and stay classy for their sakes :) keep going, your testimony is very powerful. @@JaminColler
@@trublu2024 Thanks so much! You too ❤❤
I hope he continues deconstructing and learning. What a beautiful heart and a clear longing for love and empathy.
Agreed 100% Jamin is awesome.
Feel free to reach out if you'd like to consider an interview: facebook.com/harmonictim
Thanks for the love ❤
Thank you for pointing out that even though you can find good things these people have done they are still psychologically abusing children and vulnerable adults. It’s a critical point that has been ignored and allowed them to continue as socially and politically protected.
Totally agree. I missed several opportunities to clarify this and I think the denial and dismissal of those experiences can be even more damaging than the original trauma.
It's simply comes down to this.. we just want the truth, but the truth is nebulous.
Yeah - the word "just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, and we rarely notice it.
Being a Christian with Asian parents... Can you imagine how much pressure that is? 😁 😁 😁 everything is conditional
Wow, guys! Thank you so much for this conversation. I got SO very much out of it. Your views, your stories, your graceful disagreements about certain things, while still being accepting of the others' view and place in their own journey...it was really moving and so helpful. I am into the process of deconverting and I am so thankful for channels like these where civilized, logical conversations can be had. It gives me a lot of peace that I'm not the only one.
Also, just wanted to thank you for reminding me how lucky I am that my husband of 17 years (13 years when I started deconverting) stood by me when I decided to leave Christianity entirely. I'm so grateful that he hadn't believed for a lot longer, he was just worried to tell me.😂
Anyway, long message...
But thank you. Your work really matters.
Thank you so much! Feel free to add me on FB and reach out to me there if you'd care to share your story sometime!
facebook.com/harmonictim
Thanks so much for watching and sharing. Sounds like an interesting story. The polls don’t convey the closeted unbelievers like your husband. Seems like that would be an interesting first conversation
This is a painful interview to listen to. Leaving a Christian upbringing and the indoctrination can be messy, so messy. This interview is a testament to the damage that can be inflicted on one's heart, soul and mind. My heart breaks for Jamin Coller. Please continue to pursue your healing, Jamin.
Tim, I have much more respect for what you do through and in these interviews working through the difficulties that arise with people who are attempting to break away from lifelong belief systems.
Thanks so much - and yes, I agree...especially as I become more familiar with Tim's body of work, I really appreciate the space he's carving out for people to be given a voice after years of being invalidated. Thanks, Tim
I enjoyed this conversation, good interview. I imagine that many of us were impacted by the Thief in the Night, I remember that from many many years ago. Very sad to hear how his parents disown him. Also, just my guess, but he appears to be in the mourning stage, mourning the loss of Christianity. I can relate as a PK as THAT WAS my life and worldview and even though I deconverted 3 years ago now (though it was a 10-15 yr process), I still feel very nostalgic about my Dad and his ministry and what that meant to me and my formation growing up in the 80s and 90s. I understand mourning that kind of loss and how it destabilizes life. It sucks but we are a resilient species. Hope it gets better for both of you.
We are a resilient species. Amen :) I still don't trust that I know where I am in my process. I am where I am, and that's gonna have to be accurate enough for now. 🤷♂ I'd love to hear more about your story. If it was a 10-15 year process, what occurred 3 years ago to make it official in your mind?
@@JaminColler Probably like most things in life, it was a breakup that was my Saul On The Road to Damascus moment. I can't exactly explain why, other than that suddenly, in a reverse conversion moment, the whole facade disappeared and there was no getting it back. I had gone through a very lengthy questioning process already from about 2000-2015 or so but had decided in 2019 to put all that behind me and try again. But, for whatever reason, that breakup broke the invisible intellectual and emotional barrier that had effectively repressed all my previous doubts and questions. I think, in hindsight, I wanted to put the questions to rest so that I could re-experience the Christianity of my teens but now as a leader while also being drawn to the friendships of the new church I was attending. But yea, that breakup unleashed all those doubts and questions all over again but this time so forcefully that I couldn't resist. It was like the repressed part of my brain took over and told the hopeful spiritual side, "I told you" and then steered me away from the alternate reality of the church. That's kind of it, in summary. I pretty much lived the next several months free in one sense, mourning in another sense, lost in yet another, hopeful in still yet another. "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can." Life is much better now, though still tough, and I still miss the north star that Christianity provided and my change prevents me from connecting with some people because i can no longer believe in the alternate reality they do.
And, just for what it's worth, the most irreconcilable question to me was Rom 5:12 - "Just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." Since I had studied evolution back in the 2000s, I knew that death had been around a very very long time and that it itself was the engine that drove evolution. If Paul was correct, then we should see in the fossil record an explosion of fossils that died approx. 6000 years ago when death entered the world through Adam and all living things began to die. Then, after this explosion of death, then there would be a steady state of death since then. But, that's not at all what we see. Fossils have been around for a much longer time than that and while there have been explosions like that, they occurred millions of years ago and I think lasted for millions of years, but not just 6k years ago. That doubt stuck with me that I had repressed. The other one that really stuck out was the beautiful though ultimately false premise of Matt 7:11 - "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him." My experience with depending on God like this was more akin to the play "Waiting on Godot" where all I did was wait and my "Father in Heaven" never responded or arrived. I realized that I needed to take life into my own hands and stop depending on an undependable promise. I' wasn't quite sure how to describe the faithfulness of God in view of this, a problem I'm sure that many of us experienced: "How can God be faithful while I and so many around me who are faithful to him struggle and suffer so much?" because that doesn't sound very fatherly at all. My earthly father was much much better than that.
Anyways, I appreciate the response!
@@davida.taylor8444 Yeah. There are so many questions in that genre - "Faithful to do what, exactly?" "Protector of who, exactly?" "Provider of what, exactly?" We give God credit for so many specific traits, but we never checked the receipts because we believed pride was the worst sin, and we were told the ultimate display of pride was questioning God.
Thanks for sharing your story with me.
Great stories are free of bullshit.
This was no exception!
Thanks...I think :) There's been plenty of bullshit in my story, but honesty about bullshit is hopefully compelling, even when it doesn't ascend to the ranks of humor.
@@JaminColler I enjoyed your refreshing disposition.
Best wishes for your future endeavours.
Sooo excited to read all your stuff Jamin!!!!!! just browsing your websites and all the random titles!........I loooooove your intro.....all who seek find.....and what you think Jesus would say if he was walking around today
hahaha your 'pun'ny titles are hilarious
So glad you're enjoying it! Thanks for reading :)
@@JaminColler could you start a religion and online church already? I wanna adopt whatever world view you have:) My grandparents were missionaries (grandma still alive, she's awesome. grandpa was awesome too.), my parents started a private Christian school in the 90s (where me and my bro did k-12, tho it was very small at that time) and still own/operate it now. My mom is a very black white, me vs them thinker. My bro got married to a man in 2019, none of his family was there except me (i received a lot of pressure not to go and I pretty much cried through the whole event). I'm currently struggling big time with most aspects of life (and we have 5 kids). I've felt some relief these last couple weeks just by giving myself permission to voice my concerns aloud....namely that if Christianity has not given me any extended periods of freedom/love/power, I should allow myself to let go of some of these beliefs. But where does it all lead to........back to Ecclesiastes I guess. Or maybe I just didn't receive the message from the right people. Like if our parents were more balanced and whole themselves, we might have gotten the right message. Or maybe it is the interpretation, i know at one point some Jehovah's Witness' points made a lot of sense to me and then there are some catholic youtubers who also make some sense to me. And then without a Christian label, what am I? An evolved ape. ugh. And yes, like Tim....while I don't understand how heaven would look, the idea of praising/worshipping a God (that could make this whole galaxy while also knowing every hair on my head) forever doesn't sound bad at all to me. Anywho, I've read 60% of your almostacult stuff and love it, you r hilarious, and your writing is off the chain. Also bought your book, tho I'm not necessarily seeking all the reasons to not believe.
Imagine as a kid going to school and telling all ur friends u dont think santa exists . They would all call u crazy. Who do u think puts all the gifts under the tree ? Why would ur parents lie about santa. Why would the radio lie every christmas eve when they are tracking santa ? They can't all be in on it. And if u dont believe in him u wont get any presents next year. You'll be on the naughty list (hell).
This is where we're at with religion as adults. Just change the word santa wirh jesus
As adults, we usually tell our kids not to inform their classmates that Santa isn't real. In the upper levels of Christianity, this is called the "Doctrine of Reserve" or "Discipline of the Secret". Mormonism has this too, though Scientology is probably most explicit about it. What do you think? Is it right to tell an a 90-year-old Mormon on their death bed who is meeting their demise with peace and comfort, "Here's the proof that Joseph Smith is a liar and polygamist and you've wasted your life!" (That is a sincere question, not an argument.) And if not, can you express your criteria for who to de-Santa-ize?
I think Jamin has to start believing in himself much more. Thats a big part of the deconstruction is to understand you can make decisions in your life that may not always be the right ones but thats how you learn and grow as a living being and putting ones self under an umbrella of any religion or church gives them an easier way out of being wrong, by blaming it on some spiritual being controlling us all...People can meditate and feel the same feelings within them without praying to any God
"you can make decisions in your life" Yeah - this is one of the most disturbing (and underappreciated) parts for a lot of people coming out of Christianity and cults and abusive relationships - the permission to make their own decisions. It's so disorienting that Irvin Yalom lists it as one of the 4 terrors, along with death, meaninglessness, and isolation.
Best thing about being an atheist is not having to agonize any more about whether or not what I'm doing is pleasing a god who I'm not sure even exists. It's all so pointless.
Yeah - lots of agonizing in a lot of cultish cultures. How long have you been out?
I think its funny how so many churches close down over Christmas, even extending into November where they bring classes, support, bible studies etc to a pause to reboot again at the end of January.
Supply and demand??
I lost many good friends when I became a Christian and then I lost many good friends when I deconverted
Christianity destroyed my life
I'm so sorry. I'm curious about your story - when you lost friends upon converting to Christianity, do you think that was because of how they treated you or how you treated them or lack of time or....? How did those losses play out?
I’ve never been a creationist even though I’m a Christian and the more I learn about creationism especially YEC creationism the sillier it seems . In the interest of telling all I've got a mainstream biology degree and I’ve actually evolved short lived organisms in the lab as an sophomore in college. It’s an easy experiment
The witch has entered the chat.
Thanks for watching and sharing
The need to think of yourself as a good (or salvation-worthy) soul is a simple need for self love. To be able to look at yourself in the mirror and say, "You're doing alright, kid. You're not the best, but you're trying your best, and in this world, that has to be good enough." It's about ego, too, but more than that. You actually don't need a god or parent or lover to think you're lovable. YOU have to believe it.
For those who don't worry about being a good person, or don't bother with moral questions about harm vs love: They aren't very healthy people. As an atheist, I don't think it matters that much, one way or the other, if a person chooses to be "good" or a serial killer. The universe doesn't seem to care, either. But something rots on the inside if you choose to do more harm than good and looking in the mirror must be its own form of punishment. Those people have to live with themselves.
Be who you are so that YOU can love you and the rest will follow, in line. That's my spirital advice. Wishing you all an awesome new year!
You carry a beautiful message. Thanks for sharing it.
Jamin and Tim! What is odd though is even at age 5 I had a God, but he wasn't of any religious association, not even New Age or Wiccan, but almost a metaphysics lite without a lot of the woo. A generic Creator or Supreme Being with no trappings, no special prayers, just occasional talks like you were talking to a friend. I mused this one was locally reflected strongest in the Sun and the stars. And those stars are sometimes local points for the life in that system. This one created the Universe or started it 15 Billion Years Ago or the best date that science has. And when we go we just go to another life. Sometimes we end up back here, sometimes elsewhere. We can go our entire life without speaking or worship to this one and there is no judgement for that, in fact, it is sometimes better. If there is one "sin" it is hate, if there is one main prayer, its to help guide me away from the haters (intuition) or tip the scales in my favor when they judge me. Acts of kindness do count as is our growth to become more kind. And a right we always have is to defend ourselves, in fact, it is a sign of sentience. The traditions are the ones we make for ourselves. Create aesthetic beauty. Create abundance. Learn and preserve the STEM world. Create curiosity. How did the spacecraft fly? What did it take to build that skyscraper? What kind of crop rotation creates better food yields? There is a bit of a Desiderata that is imprinted on every sentient soul. When our personal religion becomes too complex or causes hurt it is our duty to revise or discard it.
The Biblical Deconstruction seems to be an ever evolving series of milestones. The phase of residual or reflexive nervousness and guilt follows the logical and emotional distancing. As for children entering Christianity, it is a choice, but the tough question I would ask is "Why would you want to see the Creator through the window of such a limiting or mean religion that damages our only world?" Its that obvious. Don't empower psychopaths and tyrannical types to rule us or accumulate more than what they need. Gang up on them and overpower them, if needed. Not to kill as a first resort, but to segregate them.
Well I think we’re at least all together on the last two sentences 👍 Thanks for sharing your experience. ❤
Was approached and given needed help but they don't understand why I'm not interested in their KJV Bible. A different church person actually said i can see why your not breaking down our doors. Fortunatly have not been told the gosple.
Are you saying that you haven't been told the gospel? Are you in the United States? This would be fascinating to me.
Ken Ham?...honest? He's as honest as the witch hunters of old, who went after the families of the rich for the size of the cut they would get for getting them burnt.
Maybe I don't know him well enough. I've only read some of his books and watched some of his videos. But also, I agreed with Tim that the worldview Ham is promoting is psychologically torturing a whole of lot of kids. I said I think he should lose his non-profit status and that he's got to shut the place down, and I compared him to a criminal. What would have been a more satisfying response for you?
As a side quest, putting aside Ken Ham...unfortunately...I think many of the witch hunters of old were honest 💔💔 I think they were just wrong, and I wish honesty and truth were more strongly correlated than they seem to be. I wish the villains were more villainous and the heroes were more heroic. But humanity is complex and sometimes life just sucks. So I try to only go villain hunting internally, as much as possible.
Seems to me that this guy is still sitting on the fence…. And playing it safe….
Your decision to leave when you did was right for you. I knew I was atheist at 14 and stopped the cosplay at 18. I'm now in my 50's. Some of us are more rebel than others. No judgement.
FYI
The god character seems important to him and other individuals, not us. I'm part of us. And this god idea is unnecessary.
Thanks. I'm jealous of your extra un-squandered years :) To clarify, I don't necessarily think the character is important to me. (In fact the Character I was given did a whole lot of damage in my life.) I don't know that I need my tonsils or appendix either. I'm just a conservative when I'm met with Chesterton's fence, and I'm not convinced that we have a full appreciation of all the heavy lifting God has done for our species. Evolution is efficient and the cost of God is high, so I'm hesitant to assume we've inserted Him so frequently, and kept Him around so long if He's easily disposable with zero unintended consequences.
I would love my loving God to exist but I'm almost 100 percent sure God is wishful thinking.
Yeah the wishful thinking won't even give you a loving God as it's written in the Bible.
Me too! I’m a deconverted Mormon. It was a beautiful myth and in some ways I do wish it was true. But….I don’t think it is.
Now I’m grateful to be free from it before I die. I can finally be my authentic self without the guilt and shame I was indoctrinated with. I am a far more loving human now, loving, accepting and allowing others to be their authentic self (as long as they aren’t hurting others).
@@FoursWithin Yep the biblical God was kind of a monster.
@@marlenemeyer9841Good for you 👍❤ Way to go
@@CCoop-fp1su Amazing what hindsight can do :/
I grew up in a Christian home but my parents never mentioned hell. The bible was stories that you took moral lessons from, not a science or history book. We got national geographic magazine and so the history of the earth and when dinosaurs ruled, the tectonic plates, evolution was all laid out. You could read about other religions and see the devotion these people had. Good hard working people and religions were not related in the world of the national geographic. Mom saw the common humanity we all share underneath whatever our life story puts over it. She connected on that level with love, no other word for it. The biblical laws were not meant as a sort of test you must pass to get to heaven but a guide to a better way to live.
‘Some elements we can’t get away from’ to quote this guy, yes it’s hard to disconnect from fear that this religion instills, he sounds more like an apologist for Christianity….certainly not someone who claims to have deconstructed….sorry I couldn’t listen until the end, his narrative didn’t sit right with me somehow….
Thanks for sticking around for the part you did. I hope to get better at communicating. I don't mean to defend any ideology, but I am in favor of empathizing with the "other", regardless of fences and sides. Wherever possible, I find it helpful [in my life, not necessarily yours] to avoid ingroups/outgroups, heroes/villains, good guys/bad guys. I got this largely from Sam Harris, who assumes that everyone born as Hitler lives exactly like Hitler; including Sam and me and you. So I try to ask "What kind of person could do that?" as if it wasn't a rhetorical question; not to justify anyone's actions, but to understand them, especially when I hope to persuade them to act differently, or prevent the creation of such characters in the future (...especially since I am most susceptible to the fallacies I least understand). I can see how this would seem like defending Hitler or Christians or Jamin unless the words were chosen very carefully, and the listener was actively open to that mode of reasoning. I'll keep trying to get better at my part of that. Good on you for leaving when it was no longer helpful for you 👍👍❤
This was emotionally hard hitting and in parts quite upsetting. The closest point of comparison is growing up LGBT in religious settings esp evangelical.
My biggest take away is the words or concepts of disinheriting should never cross your lips. It is so hurtful and destructive. This goes alongside shunning which is similar.
Anyway my heart grieves to hear this sort of thing and I have experienced something similar. Suffice to say it is very wrong.
I'm sorry. And I'd love to hear more. I hear a lot of people talk about "coming out" as Christian to their families, but as a heterosexual cis male, I don't really know how accurate that comparison is. What are your thoughts?
@@JaminColler It's a point of comparison that can be used to create empathy with a group one doesn't normally empathise with. I'm sure there can be some instances of negativity of reaction, I doubt it's the norm though.
Saved from what ..by who for what?
Has anyone ever dealt with the intrusive thoughts or worried about some "unforgivable sin" this stuff ruined my life I didn't have this before
Yes. Definitely. Talk to someone about it. Maybe try out several people, since "professionals" can be very un-professional, and most people don't know what they don't know. Christian "professionals" are at the top of the list of malpractitioners, in my opinion, for mental health. Just because Weight Watchers tells you you're fat, doesn't mean you are. Just because a makeup company tells you you're ugly doesn't mean you are. And just because the church tells you you're reprehensible, doesn't mean you are. Maybe all three are being honest, but none of them are telling the Truth. They're just over-zealous sales reps, and their claims should be evaluated by someone other than them, because they shouldn't be allowed to be the authorities on who needs their product. You're a miracle, and this screwed up world needs more of what your best self has to offer.
About thief in the night: i remember when i was like 11 i told my pastor i wanted to show it in my house and invited classmates and neighbors of my age hahahaaha. After the movie the pastor made the prayer so they would receive Jesus. I talked to a friend that attended (recently we talked) abd i asked her if she remembered and she says yes, that it was traumatizing lolol. She thought it was all crazy but she was my friend so she didnt say anything back then heherhehe
Yeah - it's so interesting to hear stories like this, where people describe life alterations from a single does of what was normal in my life. Humans are amazingly adaptable! I'm curious - did anyone accept Christ after the pastor prayed?
Religion of love. Yes!
So many claim the title, and yet...Prince Charming still holds the glass slipper.
My husband is still heavy Catholic and a lot of times when I talk to him about scientific findings and breakthroughs, he responds as if it's an opinion. 🙄
I'm sorry. I could imagine how that would be annoying. Do you have community where you can pursue your curiosities and interests?
@@JaminColler sort of.
My colleagues at work are great. It's been hard. I almost left him but he convinced me to stay. He's incredibly sweet and kind and I don't really want to be alone. It would be nice if I could connect with other intellectual type people though
...Because it is an opinion, YOUR opinion I might add
Why are you even trying to "convince" him in the first place instead of keeping it to yourself and respecting his beliefs if he's not trying to convert you with his beliefs?
@@TheSuperTeacherStudent
And I'm sorry you were going to leave him for what exactly? Was it because
A: he's being abusive?
B: he's being too controlling?
Or C: because he doesn't agree with your own worldview?
If the answer is C then your fucking batshit insane! That's not only toxic as fuck but pretty damn petty! Its like wanting to divorce someone all because you're spouse likes Marvel and you like DC! Like Wtf!?
31:09 I have heard this sentiment, and I don't know where, because I have never NOT questioned other people's Christian arguments, but "we need to not question because that puts people weaker than us in jeopardy" has always sounded manipulative and narcissistic. It has never NOT been suspish.
I was the child of a Methodist minister in the days before megachurches and what we now call evangelicalism (it was a different world) and my father never said "we have to" _anything_ to get people to believe. He was more, "you do or you don't. I'm here if you need me." He was somebody who believed what he believed, with conviction, and apart from that he said what Paul said: "I can give you the explanation I understand, but if you want to know more than I know, ask God directly and He'll put it in your heart."
Because he told me that, that's how I've always approached it. It made sense. It's even Biblical. I believe in "God" and I'm very fond of Jesus but I don't have much good to say about Christianity except that I have met some truly good people within its boundaries.
But that whole, "we can't admit we don't know something because those other people will go to hell if we let them question," yeah, that's cult-y.
This is called the "Doctrine of Reserve" or the "Discipline of the Secret", and the nicer version is something like restricting the drinking age or telling your kids how babies are made with consideration to their developmental stage rather than showing them porn at age 5. A step toward the controversial side is telling your kids not to tell their classmates that Santa isn't real. And a few steps further is the Scientology practice of not learning about the origins of earthly life until the higher OT levels. In practice, it often feels like a gang initiation, where your buy-in is too great at the point you might decide you want to get out.
“If evolution and all that crap is true.” It is. We did evolve to live communally to survive the lions in Africa where we started. Other primates live in social groups as well. I hope you will read some science and find that it’s much more awe-inspiring and fascinating than religious texts. Agree with host about JBP and his word salad, gives me migraines 😂😂😂 The “metaphorical substrate” he yammers on about is confusing-he seems to be supporting mythology being what humans need, but I can’t say.
I meant "and all that crap" as a satirical quote of anyone who would deny evolution and round earth and all that crap :) I couldn't agree more that our existence is so much more amazing without the imposition of the literal Biblical narrative. The last 50 pages of my book are dedicated to this idea, and I think Christians would be hard pressed to find any pastor or theologian who is more in awe of the mysteries of God or authentically reverent of God's creation than the likes of Carl Sagan or any other deeply curious atheinostic.
Re: JBP - I think Richard Dawkins nailed it when he told Peterson something like, "You're absolutely possessed by your obsession with symbols and patterns." At some point, there are diminishing returns. And at some point, there's just nothing there. But he's another one of those guys I'd only have positive words for if I ever got to meet him in person. Also, for legitimate reasons or otherwise, he did save my life back in 2020, so while I feel no responsibility to defend him or recruit for his bandwagon, he's had a positive effect in my life and decisions and all that crap.
So, Tim, are you an aficionado of the subterranean art and architecture of the blue line of Stockholm’s Tunnelbana, or is that just a background picture that looks nice? 😊
Hi, Martin, that particular photo is not from Stockholm, but I think I've used some on other thumbnails that are from Stockholm. I'm just a general fan of Unsplash.com :)
That was fun. I found one at once that caught my eye, but apparently youtube didn’t like me putting a link to a picture on that site of a tram in my town (Norrköping). 😏
As far as I can see, the background you have in this video is from Stockholm’s City Hall station (Rådhuset in Swedish); perhaps the website just had not tagged it properly. 🤔
Really relateable that he wishes he could buy the bs with his santa analogy. I feel like this all the time.
Glad you appreciated it. How long have you been out? How frequently do you ruminate? What percentage of your community live in Santa land?
@JaminColler I got out of sda in 1994. The people were all nice, honest. It's a great community with potlucks and the such.. Great for kids. However.. it's like the Easter bunny.. pleasant.. but completely impossible. I've struggled to find a strong community for my kids and I. I fear my mother just decays, rather than is smiling down from heaven. I'm in lousiana. All cultures here are church related. I miss the culture.
Does anyone here get hung up on near death experiences. I listen to so many. When I struggle with faith these always make me feel like there is something out there. Many people will say it’s not proof, but when there are hundreds of thousands of them with similar stories you have to wonder. Not all of them are trying to sell books either.
Yeah - there's definitely something there. I'm not convinced it's "out" there, but it might not matter if it's only "in" there. Have you read up much on therapeutic psychedelic trips? It's essentially the same exact testimonials, reliably replicated, without the nearness to death. If you haven't looked into it, aim for stories about psilocybin and DMT (which is naturally made in the brain and perhaps released near death). I know of more atheists who have become theists on that stuff than the other way around, so it won't necessarily kill your spark for the near death testimonies, but I think the similarities might compel you to believe that whatever else is out/in "there" is chemically accessible.
@@JaminColler Yeah that is pretty interesting. Ironically I was just listening to a video recently where they were talking about psychedelics and DMT. Fascinating stuff.
As a deconstructing christian, I found my psychedelic experiences to be incredibly helpful. The mind and body is a fascinating place now that one is free to explore and craft a new world view.
@@harmonychilden5326 it does sound interresting.
Don’t worry- us who figured it out early just had different trials and tribulations regarding religion. I still had to go for many years, even after figuring it out. I got to hear about the awful things “god” (aka the pastor projecting his feelings onto god) feels about me. How I was deserving of torment more than others, and how my life can’t possibly have any meaningful purpose because I didn’t believe, how I’m just one thought away from rape and murder and all of that… all reinforced by my abusive adulterous father and the church who told my mom to abandon my younger sister over her acting out as a child.
Thanks for sharing that. How old were you when you were attending but not believing?
loved this episode so much. Thank you so much for the work that both of you are doing and the different perspectives that you both bring. I do have a suggestion of a video on when it comes to deconstruction and entering nihilism, and coming out the other side of nihilism, and its Mormon Stories episode 1840 with Brittney Hartley:
czcams.com/video/POdj17OFvZM/video.html
She has such an incredible outlook and perspective on religion that I am so so grateful for, and I know a lot of us here in this community would appreciate and relate to so much.
Again, thank you Tim for all that you've done and helped with so many people through myself included!
That’s great. I love Mormon stories. I hope they get to keep going. I’d love to do an episode with them too🤞
Maybe I don't understand the way this guy talks, or he is afraid to step on toes, but it sounds like he still really believes in some way but just doesn't like the structure of the church.
The structure and authority of the church is definitely a problem. (That's the first 1/9 of my book.) However, I'm not certain, but I think the fear you are sensing (just like many others here - I'm not saying you're wrong, and you're in an abundance of company) might be my caution about misrepresenting those who aren't in the conversation. I get a similar response in Christian circles about defending atheists. I'm not - the atheistic ideas are strong enough to stand on their own and don't need me (the same should be true about the Christian God if He's really there to defend Himself). But I'd rather let the strongest versions of the arguments collide because straw men don't make for a compelling discussion, they don't advance the discussion, and they don't persuade anyone to do anything but double down.
On that note - I agree I could definitely work to speak more clearly, so I would genuinely like to know the parts of the interview where my words - and not merely my disposition - communicate that I really believe [I assume you mean "...in Evangelical Fundamentalism"]. You could be right, and I would be intrigued to discover that.
Crank it down to .75.?
What is a protest-ant and who are they protesting against?
In short: the Catholic Church. In slightly-less-short, in the early 1500's, a Catholic Monk named Martin Luther made a long list of ways in which the church needed to be reformed. The resulting dispute was called the Protestant Reformation, which spawned pretty much every kind of Christianity you've heard of, like "Baptist" and "Luther-an" and "Pentecostal" and about 40,000 (literally) more offshoots of non-Catholic Christianity.
I grew up with southern Baptist people. Friendly but controlling and narrow minded views. I have been a Presbyterian for years now. I'm actually close to being agnostic. I think that pushing the Evangelical fascist shit is a form of child abuse.
Jesus the magician
Jesus the Magician. ftfy ;)
"I am Jesus' plus one." "The only way out of hell will ONLY cost 10% of your income." "Feel like a piece of crap? We got a solution for it!" Growing up in church would be funny if it didn't wreck our mental health. It took me 12 years after I deconverted to acknowledge my experience was spiritual abuse.
That's interesting. I usually see the opposite; the violent deconstruction that leads with vocabulary like "cult" and "abuse" and "dangerous". What made you deconvert, how long were you in, and what broke open the abuse realization?
I had some theological questions after leading a woman's bible study and being involved in evangelism, so I decided to memorize large portions of scripture (whole chapters, not just verses), translate the bible from Greek/ Hebrew to English, and study early church history. This basically became my full time job for about 4 years (living off savings). By the time I was 30, I realized that 99% of modern Christians believe in a "different gospel" compared to the diverse groups of early Christians. The gospel message was much different 2,000 years ago. Why are so many sincere Christians deceived today? Why would a good God allow the message to be so perverted? Occam's Razor: Because God doesn't exist as the Church believes. There might be supernatural forces and an afterlife, but if so, it's much different from what today's Christians envision.
I still have many good memories of the church community. Some of the nicest people I've ever met are believers.
And then I found out a few weeks ago that my sister is gay. What's the big deal? My parents told her from the time she was 8 years old (and realized her attraction), that she had to either remain celibate or marry a man. Our church culture really emphasized women being stay at home, submissive, traditional wives.
My sister married right out of college to the first guy she dated/ kissed. They have been married for 13 years and have 4 kids. Sounds like a Christian success story, right?
Except it's all a lie. Their marriage is miserable. The kids are basically being neglected (as my sister's personally is poorly suited to being a mom-- and homeschooling at that!). They put on the "Happy Family Show" for my parents and the church.
I consider it abuse because my sister should not have been told that her options are either 1) be lonely your entire life, while you burn with passion 2) pretend to be someone you are not.
She did it because she thinks God exists. But He doesn't. She was sold a lie.
My sister said that she married because a Campus Crusade leader preached that God would "change the desires of her heart." In other words, she thought that God would answer her prayers and make her straight if she had faith.
She would have been much happier if she had instead dated girls and pursued a career. Obviously, now she is stuck.
Believing in God can ruin lives. Maybe some people luck out, but others are collateral damage (the church never talks about these people).
As for me, I have my own stories. Being sexually assaulted from a fellow missionary, and the church's response was that I was guilty of sin and needed an exorcism (two separate occasions, from two different churches). The guy was never punished.
I remember being 3-4 years old and telling my grandparents (who were Catholic) that they would be going to hell if they didn't believe in Jesus.
I never planned on having a career when I was a teenager because I read Hal Lindsey's books and *knew* Jesus would be coming back in a few years. I would be raptured any day now. That obviously was a financially disastrous decision.
Growing up, I avoided social interactions with classmates because they weren't Christian, which has caused me to be socially awkward and inexperienced (leading to difficulties as an adult).
And much more.
Abusers aren't always bad people. Sometimes they are really nice, and sometimes they believe that what they did was perfectly OK. Interviews with murderers and pedophiles show that they sometimes think that their actions were justified; or they minimize the damage; or they focus on the 99% of time when they aren't causing harm. But like poison, only a little bad can have terrible negative consequences.
I consider myself an abuser for indoctrinating little kids in Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, and a Christian daycare. I really regret it. I hope the kids won't be damaged because of me. I hope they don't make poor life choices because of me.
At the time, I thought I was serving God. My motivation was to love them. But I was wrong.
My suspicion is that a lot of Christians have been hurt by the church, but they don't talk about it because 1) that would make them social outcasts in the church 2) implies they don't have enough faith in God 3) spiritual victim blaming/ shaming 4) if God says this, then you can't question it.
My family has probably given hundreds of thousands of dollars to the church and missions. I've probably lost that much money in opportunity costs as I served God. There's financial implications to believing in a lie. We got scammed.
Great interview! Thank you for sharing your story!
. @@JaminColler
@@JaminColler I'm glad you're here. I've been refreshing Amazon on your authors page. Do you have any idea when your book is coming out? :)
@@catherinebanks6420Wow. Thanks for sharing. So much of that sounds familiar. Fortunately we are not alone. And we still have time to make the world a better place, live in the light, and/or explore this miracle called life. I'm glad to be sharing this space and time with you. May you be well.
Thank you for connecting with me. My journey has been a lonely one. I appreciate people like you. Wish you and your family the best!@@JaminColler
I'm currently in the angry atheist phase. lol.
No rush. Many Jews are still in the angry, anti-Nazi "phase". I wish you well, whatever form that needs to take.
Haha, we all get that!!
That will pass soon and then you're going to be in the "what if I'm wrong?" phase. But that will also pass.
" Evangelicals. I can't pretend that your worldview makes sense anymore ". I sometimes wonder if this dude in Rome can't come to this thought aswell.
I don't know what you mean. Perhaps you live in Rome, but I love to imagine that the dude you're referring to is Jesus 😂 Because that seems to be the message in the gospels, "These religious leaders have no idea what they're talking about and no one should trust anyone who follows their religious text over their conscience!" Christ's messages are pretty anti-Christendom.
Notice much of the message evangelicals shout is based on fear and guilt not scriptures. Controlling the followers in this manner is forcing obedience with not explanation only accusation. Too much projection by these leaders and then tell followers not to judge but be judged by everyone around you through their leaders. Never understood why my old church use to get upset if I attended another church while traveling. You were exposed to someone else’s preaching. Never could understand the reactions. If all worship the same god and Jesus then why be afraid? Hmmm!
I’ve also found that most Deconstructionists struggle the longest with the threats. Whether they’re doing it intentionally or ignorantly, it’s effective.
If God is everywhere, then it is in Hell too. Also if God does only good, then the Hell is good.
Amen 🙏
:) That is consistent Christian theology. If everything that happens is God's good will, and bad things happen, then bad is good.
C. S. Lewis had the best refutation I found when he said that the bad-ness of life will make the good-ness of heaven that much better, like when you dream that your family has died, but wake up to find them alive - their alive-ness is all that much sweeter. ...but that still doesn't address the problem that the nightmare was bad in the first place, and only a bad person would wish that traumatic experience on someone, even if it does enhance the next phase of their existence.
Psalm 139 though I make my bed in hell thou art with me... I find that to be one of the most comforting passages in the Bible that God is everywhere
But God is not in hell? He can't be. Laws of nature. Hell is the absence of God.
@@tulip811
Then it's not Omnipresent.
@@tulip811 you are conflating your belief with the laws of nature
We all are influential to young people therefore it is a responsibility not to feel but to know that religion ("GOD" included) is unnecessary.
Yes. I think it is most humane to instill a reverence for where we have gotten (conservatism) and the mavericks who have led us here (liberalism), and lead in humility and curiosity so kids have the opportunity to grow into their strengths with a belief in their unique value, and an appreciation for their opposition.
C S Lewis. was a thoughtful but naive soul who should have stuck to writing children's books. By his own admission, he was beaten so badly in his first debate, which was against a Catholic, that he never again attempted to debate. He confined himself to preaching to the converted. I knew intuitively at the age of 12 that there was something wrong with his arguments. As an adult, I know exactly what is wrong with them, and I'm nothing special.
Thanks for the reference. I’ll have to look up that debate. Lewis was so highly revered in my world. They say don’t meet your heroes. Don’t study them too hard either, I guess. 😢
@@JaminColler Sure. Be prepared to encounter some controversy. He wasn't stupid. He was just naive. His trilemma (Lord, liar or lunatic) is a case in point. I loved his books as a kid, and I still give them as presents.
You might like to check out Dan Barker's "Mere Assertions".