Rapidgate, degradation & battery cooling
Vložit
- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Discussing Rapidgate, degradation and adding a thermal management system to the Nissan Leaf.
Preparing for a battery upgrade? dalasevrepair....
Want to get the LeafEnhancer SW? LinkComingSoon
Huge thanks to all Patreon supporters, if you like what you see and want more, consider becoming a Patreon. / dala
![62kWh isolation problem [part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ug9YdxXqkJ4/mqdefault.jpg)
![62kWh isolation problem [part 1]](/img/tr.png)
![62kWh isolation problem [FINALE]](/img/n.gif)
Amazing work! I’m also impressed with LEAFSpy running on the car’s headset.
Daniel, thank you for this. I did some in-depth analysis about the LEAF's heat dynamics a couple of years ago - (search "Leaf vs. long journeys - Can it take the heat?"). I think it would be very useful even simply to allow owners to choose a reduced peak charging power (25, 30, 35, 40 kW) for trips that require 2, 3, 4 DC charges.
Requesting a slower charge (one that takes ~60 minutes) during a meal stop is the right choice for avoiding unnecessary heating.
Final DC charge of the day can of course run a bit hotter since there's no "next charge" to be negatively affected.
=> Just having the ability to set a more modest power level is already a big help in managing long trips.
Can I also recommend an app which very simply communicates "heat gain" during driving, to help owners manage their driving speed (power) in order to loose net temperature while driving between DC charges. I'd recommend a simply colour code on the phone screen (orange for medium gain, red for high gain), or "heat loss" (green for medium loss, blue for high loss). Should ideally be a function of sensor temperature delta over the previous few seconds, and / or net temperature delta per 1% (or 5% or 10%) of SOC use.
Fully agree on all points!
3:12, very good visualization. I've looked at what would happen with cooling if the air inside the pack was "moving". Add a fan, 5-10W in the midle, and in theory the passiv cooling will double. Now it is apporx 200W/k dT, with a small airblow inside the pack it will double as you do not have only the convection to rely on. A småll airflow inside will spread the temperature more even, and degradation will drop for the rear pack. As the cooling is also better between charging session, you could charge a bit faster. I've upgradet my 2012 Leaf with a 40 pack, and have fans ready to do a test. But no time ufortunaltely. Looks like you are opening packs now and then, so nest time, add a fan next time for a test.
Another good, well researched Leaf battery video. I am a 24/30kWh Leaf owner and fan of the car but only as a City Car going to and from the shops, station, school etc which is 90% of most people's journeys. I sympathise with 40/62kWh hour owners who thought the Leaf could be an Intercity car. For Intercity either go by train or have a Tesla or sadly use your old smelly petrol car. The problem however is not just a Leaf owner problem but society in general because what to do with all those degraded cars/batteries? For me the 4th unseen solution on the list of options is to make an autonomous or hybrid solar systems using either the whole car as a battery bank using V2H technology or just the batteries alone if they have been removed. We have developed our own crude low cost system splicing into the main high voltage cable of the car (safely) but we can do better in the future.....over to you Daniel:)
We have a Setec v2h unit plugged from our 40kWh Leaf to our house. Works great. Can't use a Powerwall to nip down to the shops......
Another great video Daniel. Clearly describing thermal problems of LEAF batteries. It would be good if you could dial back charging rate on a 62kWh LEAF.
Cheers from Australia
Thanks! This software fix works on the 62kWh already!
Wow... How clever is that; Turn the fan on and draw off the charge rate... Very cool. Thank you Dala (I'm in mountain country - BC Canada)
Thanks Bill! Similar climate to here 😁
In Australia it’s not uncommon for leaf batteries to fail by 30,000k. I’m afraid in hot climates electric cars just have to have a proper cooling system. Est to just avoid the leaf if you live in hot areas.
We have a Leaf, we are in Australia. There is no truth in what you say Wofinet.
@@darroncrick9993 the local Nissan dealer had one for sale with 35k on it. The dealer assured me that they had replaced the battery. 🤷♂️
@@Wofinet Anectodical at best. An example of 1 does not a commonality make.
Since s/h Leafs are a bargain in Oz at the moment that would be a great buy. Where is it?
Did you check the guessometer? Should show 12 bars if the battery is new.
It was at Moorooka Nissan. Was a few months ago when I went in to look at the new leaf. I also know two gen1 leaf owners. The range is not so great.
@@Wofinet Gen 1 range is awful yes
Very informative video thanks for sharing.
This is why Tesla batteries are way ahead! They have excellent temperature control. And the Leave company is too stupid to fix the problem, time enough they had!
Can a vent not be made under the rear seat - or just a hole cut in that body/chassis section? Then 10 miles or 15km from the next rapid charger, the rear aircon fans be turned on towards the vent, passively cooling the rear battery modules? Is it the Ioniq that has something similar?
Has anyone tried fitting a Prius Cooling system which would need watertight inlet outlets to access the battery?
Excellent analysis!
Great feature. I love the idea of having the ability to moderate DC speeds.
Have any of your customers tried this in combination of running a ducted fan over the top of the battery?
Another idea, build a leafspy like software which is android auto compatible (and sell it on play store) so for those of us with the other headunits can get a Leafspy on video display like what you showed in the video.
I actually have one customer that added fans on top of the access port that normally is covered. No clue how much it helps, but I don't think it will do much. The fan is not in contact with the hot air inside the battery, and 1000s of watts of heat is being generated there, so...
Yeah I get asked about that Android stereo a lot :D
@@DalasEVRepair you would have 1,000s of customers if you could port Leaf Spy to android auto... worth at least $50 usd for the convenience. As for the air in the port, I have seen a few on facebook try, and report an additional few degrees cooling per hour. While not much, that could allow Leaf Plus to do all day drive and charge vs. Just 1.5 to 2 DC charges before throttle. Combined with 35kW charging, and you certainly have it.
Ok, last idea. Once you have the android auto port, you can move the controls for your can bus up to the android app vs. doing overrides in the ac controls.
And thank you for the work
Tried the ac full on to push air over the fan but had little effect
@@fusion8484 did you route the air to the battery? Running AC by itself actually adds battery heat due to higher draw and where the ac compressor dumps heat in the front.
corect me if i am wrong there is Somme sort of air cooling coming in the bat pac a cheap solution would be to ad some coold air from the ac and also to install extracting fans like on a pc whit a hose syst to the exterior you could even use the hot air flow to heat the cab in winter to reduce power consumption.
You didn't mention that in options, but muxsan added second battery pack in boot, which helps also :)
True! But not everyone in the world has driving range to their workshop!
Great to hear that you all work hand to hand with emile. A pitty that Nissan let us all down. Who needs a ariya when you can get a Muxsan iceing special.
I have a CAN bus from Muxsan installed and have my charging speed via override switch set to 30 kw. I see you have it set to 35. do you recommend I set it to 35 or leave it to 30? I did the math and at 30 I don’t loose much time compared to the standard leaf cycle but I wonder if the slightly longer charge time is worse then then if I set it to 35.
i also have a power limiter (turtle mod 50 horsepower) programmed in and regen off.
Im still playing around with stuff and any advice would be greatly appreciated because always having a laptop on long road trips to adjust things in the CAN is inconvenient. A standard setting would be preferable.
Don't think there is much difference between 30/35kW limiter. But careful datalogging should tell which is better!
power limiter is built into the car... its called the driver XD
honestly imo though, i think its a bit unsafe to limit power output, because in an emergency situation where hypermiling isn't the goal, you might want that 30kw...
I just discovered your channel. I just bought a used Leaf and have started to get experience with Leafspy and was surprised to see Leafspy displayed on the Navigation screen. Do you have a video on how you accomplished that.? And would that be possible on all year models of the Leaf. Mine is 2012.
I followed this thread. Please note it only works for the base spec S model: www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=31781
Would love to know if your fix would work with a 40kWh env200
Hi Dala, I recently got my dongle and LeafSpy pro to help me monitor the battery temperature among other things. What is the ideal range of temperature to keep, when on long trips ? (odometer is 75k km and SOH is 91.3)
See Teslabjorns videos on long range 500km-1000km challenges it is explained well there!
Hi Dala, do you have a video showing how you change the head unit to the Atoto one?
No, but there are text guides with pictures on the mynissanleaf.com forum!
Hi, I know, maybe it's a stupid idea, but can't you make a hole in the front of the battery and the other on the back of the output, connect the air conditioning directly and check if it lowers the battery temperature? the battery heats up when charging, maybe it is enough to manually turn on the air conditioning while charging?
Battery needs to be sealed to protect it from the elements. Dew point is a real issue. Check out this video: czcams.com/video/-Whjmj6x-40/video.html
@@DalasEVRepair thank You, I saw, the test is a great idea, but without the heat being dissipated outside, it has no chance to work.
Another thing, Dala. You mention that the e-NV200 has thermomanagement of the battery. Is this the case for just the 24kWh version or also the 40kWh version like mine ? (7 seater EVALIA).
All env200 have active cooling
@@DalasEVRepair Thanks for all the help, Dala ! Living in France, Paris area, I wish I could easily access our services.. Alas, the trip is too long.
Just found these videos. As an early leaf owner, this is super interesting and ‘PROPER’ engineering. Question: any pictures of the ENV200 pack opened up? It’d be good to see the differences
This guy has one opened: czcams.com/video/r9j3V-9vQSo/video.html
@@DalasEVRepair thanks, so it just looks like a heat exchanger and fan in one corner...
Is is possible to manage individual battery stacks so you utilize the rear stack less and push less power into that stack while charging to keep the temperature closer to that of the other batteries?
Nope, all batteries are in series 😑
Am I correct in thinking the leaf is one of the few electric cars that doesn't have active battery cooling via some kind of radiator/fluid?
Plenty of passively cooled EVs, but it really starts to show once you have a battery pack that is larger than 30kWh!
Funny thing. On first ZE0 models the hotter the battery gets, the faster it charges, at least until it hits red mark. Which is a complete nonsense. Looks like BMS firmware has been developed by complete amateurs...
You are correct! The ZE0 Leaf has bugs in the lookup table for charging speed. It doesn't follow the cell characteristics at all. Nissan Fixed the 24kWh charging speed in the AZE0 model. Very strange that it never got fixed on the older models as a firmware update.
@@DalasEVRepair outside of the chargegate fix, Nissan hasn't patched very much.
Hi Dala, I just discovered this helpfull video of yours. Does the fan trick (reducing to 35kW QC power) work effectively with my 2019 e-NV200 EVALIA ? Also to mention, I had the MUXSAN COMBO CCS 2.0 install in January (in place of my yazaki). I recently observed that when COMBO QC charging (e.g. at Tesla stations), the rapidgate effect is bypassed, meaning my battery starts over heating. So scary, I once had to wait an hour before resuming my trip. On that day, I subsequently stuck to CHADEMO when rapidcharging.
I think you should ask support from Muxsan about that!
@@DalasEVRepair Thanks, Dala, I will mention this.
Zero buyers remorse about supporting you on Patreon. Very cool software work there, navigating around "rapidgate". I would say that I think you may be overestimating the expense and engineering difficulty of adding active cooling to the battery. There are thousands of people with performance computers that build subfreezing cooling pumps to run through coils inside their PCs. Very functional versions of these cooling pumps have been built by DIYers out of dismantled window air conditioning units, a chill box, and a glycol pump. I don't see why you couldn't open the battery, snake a cooling coil through it, and place the chillbox in the trunk. Whole operation should be well under 700-800 Euros.
Thank you! So the problem isn't to get one loop of heatpipes, coolers/chillers, into the battery, it is to spread the cooling evenly. Here is a research paper that compared tab cooling vs surface cooling, and it gets very complicated quick.
iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.0501913jes
Leaf modules are a "same side tab" design, which are harder to cool compared to the "counter tab" design. Ofcourse one could argue that some cooling is better than no cooling, but then again you run the risk of having deltaT in the opposite direction. This really would need some modelling/simulating if one were serious about designing a retrofit. And this is where the cost aspect really creeps in. A proper solution with the limited space, along with all the engineering hours put into the project won't be cheap.
If you support him on Patreon, can you download the software to apply this to your own LEAF?
@@pioneer7777777 no
I'm curious how much heat in 100kw Chademo. At least going from Munich to Berlin there're a few
Where Can I Get the software you made ? Max charge 35 kWh - My car Leaf generation 2 Bat. 40 kw. From 2018 ?
Sorry, only available for batteryupgrade vehicles!
Maybe I missed it. How can I get this going on my current LEAF?
You need a CAN bridge between your battery/BMS and car computer. Really easy to install.
Wow! Very interesting. You limit charging power on ChaDeMo through software mod and your can bridge?
Correct! Extremely useful! 😁
Where do You bye This CarPlay.? Do You have a video where you instal CarPlay?
See this thread: www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=26210
I don't get it, would it work on my 2022 40kwh Leaf original battery or it only works with batteries that have some custom firmware... ?
Is there a list of other hidden Leafspy features like this?
This vehicle is battery upgraded, and has a CAN-bridge fitted. The custom software runs on the CAN-bridge. This is not available on vehicles without CAN-bridges!
Traducción al español?
Me gustaría poder limitar la carga
Tengo un leaf 40kw ¿puedo deslimitar la velocidad maxima?
Has anyone tried piping cooled air into the battery box ? To be used only when it gets too hot. Perhaps use the cars air conditioner to produce the cool air. Yes, it will draw down the battery but better that than damage it.
See Paul Kenneths videos!
Hi, so I have become a pattern as I really like what you are doing. But how do I get this reduced DC charging on my 30kw?
You need a LeafEnhancer kit to get this! Send me a PM and let's continue the discussion there
@@DalasEVRepair ok
@@DalasEVRepair mmmm trying to figure out how to send a Private message bon youtube
@@chriswhiteman5817 also possible to use the contact form over at dalasevrepair.fi , or send message via Patreon!
Hi, I'm from Brazil, im driving a 2018 Leaf with 40kW battery pack, and have reported to nissan dealer the problems of battery overheating after just one single quick charge at the 10.000 km service. For my astonishment they told me that car is for urban use and quick charge is not recommended. After this service shame, i have requested for a software update to fix this rapidgate issue, however no idea from nissan Brazil about the issue. With outside temperature of 38°C i have seen my batteries reach 60°C while driving...turtle icon (limited power) on the dashboard and almost no power on highway....and when stopped to quick second quick charge, i get frustrated with 0.6 kW/h of charging rate displayed on dash.
Is there any solution to update the software or increase the temperature threshold by myself ?
Leaf can't cope with those temps, even with software update. Switch to some other ev with thermal management!
Thanks Daniel very interesting video. I have a 2018 40kWh Leaf. I’m not sure how I would get the modified software. I didn’t have the updated software from Nissan. Is the updated software to reduce the rapid charge rate going to be available through them or another source. I’m not sure from your video which is the case.
Hi Robert, the software is available to all my battery upgrade customers, and all customers with LeafEnhancer software. I haven't been able to create a webpage for LeafEnhancer yet, but if you want it, send me an email via my site and let's continue the discussion there!
@@DalasEVRepair Thanks Daniel I’ll do that.
@@robertwood9155 Did you end up going through with this? How was the process?
Followed your link. Says out of stock. Got a waiting list or an alternative source?
2-port budget can bridges are in stock, email me via the website!
Great video. Thank you. Do you know if the 2022 62kwh model suffers from this also?
If you are driving distances close to 1000km, then the 62kWh pack will also rapidgate. Much more resilient though!
@@DalasEVRepair Thank you!
I understand your code, but what is with "
The data spans 2x Bytes, so it has to be pushed 8 steps to the left in order to fit the content in u16 format!
@@DalasEVRepair Oops, thank you!
Hi Daniel, I am curious. I have a 2015 leaf with i believe a 24 kw battery, but can only get around 80 km on a charge. Is this normal? Can this be improved? Any input we be appreciated.
First step is to get a Leafspy readout of the battery stats. I recommend checking the results with the mynissanleaf.com forum!
@@DalasEVRepair Thank you for the info.
I got a very easy soulution. Dont use Leaf for long distance trips...
Or don't fast charge ever. I experienced Rapidgate last week on a 2019 40 KWH belonging to my employer. I fast charged the car because someone parked it with a low battery charge. Then drove 130 miles or so. Would have been just fine had I been able to use a L1 or L2 charger at the end of the trip but a coworker needed the car quickly so 50KWH fast charge it was... Battery temp went right up to the red zone and stayed there while the car regulated the charge speed down to 23 KWH. And this was with weather in the 60Fs. Not good from a longevity point of view. Battery was in the mid-temp range before the second fast charge.
I'm considering buying my family a Nissan Leaf (60KWH) but I won't fast charge it ever. Just home charging to 80%.
@@joeaverager I own a 40kWh Leaf and i am perfectly happy with it. I never go beyond 300km though.
You Sir are 100% correct. Horses for courses.
@@joeaverager You could save a lot more and get by with much less. In the end it's your time wasted though.
Pitty of no idea 🤷🏻♂️ about a can bridge or code. I can pull a battery out and fix cell no problem as an electrician.
Could you make a CANenhancher for the non TEKNA's of the 62kWh's so they also can charge at "100 kW" as the Tekna?
Yes! But that would require someone to lend me their vehicle so that I can test it properly!
@@DalasEVRepair , "magic". I did believe so. One argument here in Norway not to by lower trims the Tekna is that it charges faster. Not so much faster, but stil approx 15 min compared to "125A". There is very few Chademo locations with the "200A" chargers. Anyway, good to know it is possible.
Hi
Can you please explain how did you installed aftermarket radio?
See this thread: mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=31781
@@DalasEVRepair thank you really appreciate it
Do the 2022 models have some kind of this updated firmware?
Yes the newer 40kWh have the rapidgate patch, which allows for higher charging rate at the expense of battery life
So getting the software update from Nissan is not recommended?
Correct!
Hello Daniel.
I have cell no.36 with 128 mV lower voltage. Car is 40 kwh. 12 months old. Is this a problem?
Thank you for informativ videos.
René
That depends on your SOC% when you took the measurement. 128mV diff at 100% SOC is bad. 128mV diff at 20%SOC is not so bad
Its absolutely insane that the world is telling us to but electric cars to save the planet. But then when we do, we are forced to deal with this!
Another way to limit the charging speed is to charge at higher SOCs.
But if you're charging at say 80% SOC plus the reason the charging speed is slower is because per unit charge the heating is higher. No net change in heating, just slower charging at high SOCs.
@@malcolmstreet1 I didn't understand, sorry.
@@fr33mynd - OK, in the c. 20 - 80% battery range the Leaf charges at a constant rate. The lower the rate the lower the heat build-up.
When you get over about 80% the charge starts to slow as internal resistance increases, partly to avoid overheating. So at this stage there should be the same amount of heating as below 80% even though the charge rate is slower.
@@malcolmstreet1 ok I see, but I don't think that's true. You can reduce heat by charging at higher soc, because you spend less time charging at high kW.
@@fr33mynd The manual recommends not doing that. Why increase battery degradation if you don't have too?
why cant you just route the AC from lets say passenger feet to the battery? the air is already chilled and dried, thats how i-Miev has battery cooling.
Routing the AC to go ontop of the battery is actually something people have experimented with. Not that great gains, the heat transfer is not that high. Some people have even tried dumping ice on top of the battery thru the service plug hole! Not a good standardized solution :D
@@DalasEVRepair Is there a battery vent exit as well? I have not seen the early car battery in person.
@@joeaverager Service plug access from inside cabin. No battery vent exit. Only overpressure valves.
Fill the whole battery with non-conductive mineral oil like Linus did?
Like Linus did on a gaming desktop...
I'm not sure if this is a brilliant idea or a crazy idea. I like it!
400v I an a lot more than 12v 🤔
If you have a worn out 30% health pack laying around give it a whirl.
Won't the mineral oil become conductive over time?
👍
or dont buy a nisan or other ev without cooling ever again
leaf charging speed already is slow as f, so this option is crap. sorry. it's annoying how things are engineered.
Planned obsolescence.
What sort of idiot buys an electrical car? If an ICE car behaved like this there would be severe trouble for the company that made this sort of rubbish!
Have fun with maintenance and raising fuel prices. However I do acknowledge that leafs are pretty crappy but not all evs are this temperamental.