The 24 kWh Nissan Leaf battery might not rapidgate at all
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- čas přidán 30. 10. 2023
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![62kWh isolation problem [part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ug9YdxXqkJ4/mqdefault.jpg)
I wish I can find a "Waldemar" here in Sweden when my electric car turns older. Such a great and enormously skilled man. Always a pleasure to hear such a professional person still being so nice and humble. Looking forward to more videos from Elbilmek 👍
For sure! Auto mechanics in the very near future are going to need a very different set of diagnostic and repair knowledge and tools.
New game - drink a shot of vodka, each time Bjorn touches opened battery with bare hands.
He has a death wish
@@eemilvanced6592what danger could be? Ground fault?
I’m pretty sure that the rubber gloves that the guy is wearing have nothing to do with shock protection.
@@timpayne7676Those are also not rated for any kind of voltage and are just thin gloves to prevent your hands from geting dirty.
He has safety glasses he is safe😂
I’m a Li-ion battery engineer in the automotive industry, and it just blows my mind that even the second generation didn’t have an active cooling system.
They made FOUR GENERATIONS of car without active cooling. 24, 30, 40 and 62kWh batteries have no cooling. 24/30 have terrible degradation. 40 has bad rapidgate and shows signs of degradation faster than comparable cars, including at least a few bulging battery packs. Combined with shitty chemistry on 24/30/40 packs. Not enough data on 62 for now but I would not buy any Leaf - Nissan have shown they do not build reliable EVs. Maybe Ariya will be better, will have to see.
Nissan engineers are the most stubborn. None learning after 13 years
It is not needed for every day use. In most cases it is enough to slow charge at night and drive day. Diesel is better choice in case you need many quick charges.
@@tomsixsix '...Nissan have shown they do not build reliable EVs.' Really?
Here in Germany all newly registered road vehicles leave the dealer's lot with a roadworthy certificate valid for three years. The rwc has to be renewed every two years after that. The Leaf is known for getting through the rwc inspection with few to no problems. With a Tesla this becomes a 50/50 proposition.
The CEO of Nextmove, Germany's biggest EV rental company, stated in one of his YT videos that his Nissan fleet has the least number of unscheduled shop visits by far.
The battery tech that Nissan installed is primitive. It is however anything but unreliable.
If you are li-on battery engineer, go ahead and build at least something in 2010. ENV200 had active cooling with the same battery pack and it didn't help at all because of the chemistry itself and it seemed that Nissan knew it already so why bother? Plus, in 2000s, nobody knows anything, nobody tested anything (besides gm ev1 haha) so either you are going to build something and take the risks or give up. You can argue that even 2nd gen doesn't have cooling and here is how li-on battery engineers still have their jobs and salaries because in 2017 everybody sold EVs at a loss and only Nissan became profitable first. Then Tesla in 2021. Look at ioniq (not classic) sales, this is so expensive even for Hyundai so they haven't sold their 100k cars yet
Owned all of them except original non-lizard 24kWh. 40kWh was the worst - I could turtle it in the mountains on a hot day (113°F) in 1 hour of driving. Our 24kWh 2015 (12 bars) died in head-on crash in Aug - we walked away. Thank you, Nissan engineers! Replacement 30kWh will only go 250mi, then you are on L2 only.
I use Leaf batteries in conversions. The 24, 30 and 40 kWh Leaf are constructed near identical, with one large brick in the back and the rest lying down in the front 2x3 "towers". The difference between 24/30 and 40 kWh is the latter senses the temperature on the pole screw in front of the battery while the other two have temperature sensors stuck in the back with no heat transfer medium (apart from air). So when the 40 kWh displays 50°C this is actually near the core temperature of the cell. If the other two display 50°C then the core is a good deal hotter. I remember opening up the box after long trip and some hot air hit me with the 24 pack. The 40 pack never felt that warm even if it displayed so.
The 62 is a different beast as you showed, I've never used it.
MY 2002 tOYOTA RAV 4 had air cooling. two big fans pulling in air from over the rear wheels and blowing out the bottom of the battery pack through screened vents. I no longer own it but I see it on the road once in a while 22 year old batteries living in the west coast rain forest of Canada
It would be extremely interesting if Waldemar could invest in this project....import a battery with thermal cooling developed specially for the leaf from New Zealand and they have 24 to 62kwh. ❤ think about it thanks .
Sound in the background reminds me when you enter a 7 Eleven in Thailand 😂
Don't forget these old LEAF's also Cold-gate, so adding more cooling doesn't help the 1 or 2x rapid charge journeys, like always there is always a trade off on these simple cars, so I think Nissan got it about right, in that the car was built for 0-3 rapid charges per day, so thats maybe 250miles, how many LEAF owners did more then that? I did 70k miles in 3 years (24kwh) and only had over heat issues 2 or 3 times on the odd 300+ mile journey, in fact I wished it didn't cold gate more then I wished it didn't rapid gate.
Yes, cold is more of an issue on the 24kWh. Nothing worse than only getting 35kW peak and then quickly dropping to 21kW in the Winter.
Dala's thingverse has "Modular grille-block off plates" available. Might get extra range from improved aerodynamics too. (Have not yet looked into printing those myself).
The same analyse about Ioniq 28 passive cooling would be extremely interesting
Isn't ioniq 28kwh active aircooled? It has a fan that cools the pack with air?
Classic Ioniq has active cooling. It has a fan that pulls in cool, interior air
The Ioniq 28 can do fast charging. How did they get it to work without battery overheating?
I live in Canada, and I have a 24Kwh Leaf don't rapidgate in winter, but still degrades with the time, slowly...
Good to know that Björn is also a Ragusea fan. Probably the two channels I spent the most of my youtube time on :)
I find these videos on batteries etc fascinating, very interesting!
I had similar battery like Frankenstein. It had 12,5kWh and it never overheat because it was charging slowly. In winter it rarely get 25C. It charged above 40kW only max 2 minutes and than went quickly down. Not little bit under 40 but mostly something like 16kW and in higher SOC down to 8kW. In summer I never get above 35C. After replacing with 30kWh that runs at 45kW up to ~75% it is overheated avter 2 charges in summer. What your old battery is doing cold is SLOW charging. I can slow down DC charging down to 24kW and it really helps a lot to avoid overheating. It takes 2 times more than charging at 40 but If I have tome (lunch) it really helps.
The Leaf is actually a great car, with the battery thermal management being its Achilles Heel. One thing that the Leaf has that no other EV has, that I'm aware of - at least visible on the dashboard, is the actual HEALTH of the battery. (Some EVs might have this info available either inside a menu option or via an app and OBDII dongle). For buyers of used Leafs or even for current owners, this info is actually quite useful. But I imagine Nissan realized it didn't want that information too accessible after all. I don't think the new Ariya has this feature.
I think I saw it in one of Bjorn Nyland's test videos of the Ariya. .
@@joeaveragerGood to know. I hope it's true because it is quite useful information.
I just got back from an 830km trip in my 24kWh Leaf and the highest temperature I saw was about 54°C after a 90% charge on the way home. Don't forget that the charging times aren't really that long on a 24kWh battery so there is less time to accumulate excess heat. 0-50% is around 15 minutes on a decent charger, and 50-80% is another 15 minutes and if you're really in dire need another 15 minutes will get you >90%.
Love this technical examination of issues and experimentation possibilities. Very interesting stuff.
I might work out a solution for thermal management that makes sense and works. Maybe 2024 brings some news. From Estonia.
Several years ago I saw your roadtrip-video to Bergen with the 30 kWh Leaf and the little dog!
Owning a 40-kWh-Leaf for 18 month now I only did 2 or 3 Chademo charges at all. So #rapidgate is not an issue for me since i charge at home most of the time. What i miss most is a propper CCS connector and a triphase AC charger with 11 kW.
There is now a CHADEMO to CCS adapter available online. Haven't used it firsthand. Works in Norway with CCS2, I think there is still some CHADEMO to CCS1 adapter firmware development going on in the USA.
looks like the newer leaf pack could benefit with putting PC (computer) fans on the cell packs. to circulate the air inside the pack.
I like this latest tear down videos. Interesting to see EV-cars under knees. Awaiting for more with Waldemar ;-)
Very interesting, as ever. Good to see these battery packs opened up and tested.
Also, there is the time factor. A large battery fast charges longer (heating), then potentially drives longer (heating) and b/c the motor is more powerful, more current can be pulled out of the battery as compared to the 2011 Leaf (more heating). The older cars were charging for shorter times, driving for shorter times, etc.
I’m still surprised nobody has tried blowing air through the battery pack.
Air cooling is not as effective as liquid cooling, the specific heat of air and flow rates required are limiting.
It should be possible to achieve airflow rates to yield 800 watt cooling with only 5 deg C air temp delta.
The unknown is how much heat can be transferred out of the batteries to air when air passes through the case.
Plus the obvious issue of dirty air, moisture/ humidity entering the battery case.
I observed rapid gate once on my 2019 e-golf. A road closure meant an early rapid charge and a diversion and then needed another rapid charge to complete my journey. Normally I can make this trip with one rapid charge no problem. The charging speeds on the second rapid charge were painfully slow and getting slower as the battery continued to heat.
While topping up the screen wash I noticed how HV battery connector formed a tunnel into the "engine" bay. Which got me thinking if running the AC while charging which has the effect of running the cooling fan would push enough air over the battery to make any difference. The resulting air would be warmer than ambient because of the heat removed by the AC so maybe having a way of running that cooling fan without AC running could be useful.
Finally, a cooling solution for Leaf! Thanks Valdermar!
Finally first to comment
Welcome to Switzerland ;-)
The passive cooling might be based on the principle of heat-sinking and heat-piping. The question is have they done this or not and how well has it been implemented. I suspect they chose this as a cost-effective and well understood solution to a car they were unsure had a future or not, meaning testing the market and trying out new ideas.
By the time the 2nd gen. LEAF was launched, they had sold quite a few 1st gen. cars, so they should have had a handle on both the markets and battery performance and degradation. I find it telling that when some people in the UK had a "race" from the southernmost part of England to Edinburgh with a 1st gen. LEAF, a 2nd gen one (40kWh I think) and an Ionic (28kWh), the 2nd ge. LEAF came last thanks to rapidgating. The Ionic probably won on efficiency, at least in part.
@@koma-kThe first gen Leafs were all most certainly a testing of the market response to EV's and there viability as an alternative to ICE based cars. Each generation after gen. 1 are simply iterations on a base concept. There problem is today's management is very conservative and somewhat EV sceptical thus the lack of meaningful innovation. This shows in Nissan's struggle to keep pace.
Hi!
What about thermal paste putting between the cells for better temperature transfer?
Or what about floating the whole battery with oil? (Vegetable oil to cook healthy food when driving 😂)
This might really help. You can use transformer oil that is designed to work with electricity. Then the bottom of the car will work like a cooler but the problem does not fix in hot summer when you are driving over 50+ hot aaas-falt. It would work in colder climates but during winter you will have to drain it as it will over cool the battery. If you keep the plastic cover and run some pump to the radiator or to heatr you will get active termo management. I have to say it is not bad idea. I head about people who wanted to push cold air into battery but it does not work to much as you need a lot of air to transfer heat but you need much less oil. Anyway it is barely legal :)
@@jaroslavoverlordprasecibri317 I imagined heat pipes and fans like a laptop has but larger.
Safety glasses and poking around close to high voltage stuff with bare fingers. Oh shieee.... 😅
coming tto the era of second hand EVs it will be interesting to see the best climate to keep your battery in , obviously a mild dry climate will be better than a damp climate with extreme cold/heat...testing and mod-ing of old vehicles will bring more info to the industry...test test and test
Amazing video 👏 more like this about batteries maintenance and repairs.
Kind of weird there is no heatpipe system with passive cooling using fins on the outer housing.
15:22 The Mitsubishi iMiev had a fan to circulate air from the cabin through the battery. Maybe a fan might help cool the Leaf battery. In warm weather blowing hot air from the battery outside would avoid heating the cabin. In cold weather waste heat from the battery could help to heat the cabin. 🤔
Classic Ioniq 28kWh does the same thing. I own one along with 24kWh Leaf, and let me tell you a fan is definitely a LOT better than nothing.
I'm a fat Passenger but I changed the 24 kWh Pack to the 62 kWh. Ist works great!🙋♂️😃
When you drove to Alvdal in - a lot of °C the air is very dry and there is no moist to transfer heat from underneath the battery, whilst when you drive in 0°C water can transfer heat from underneath the battery.
Another idea I had was misters as used in greenhouses to spray water on top of the battery box. It would either evaporate immediately or run down the sides of the box and drip off. Put a 2-3 gallon reservoir somewhere. Switch it on only when the battery is very hot. Unsure if it would make a big difference but the batteries do sit on the bottom of the battery box so some heat transfer happens with the air. Also - big aluminum heat sinks added to the bottom of the battery box. Might wick heat away from the battery when moving.
Been done here (battery swap) in Canada/Quebec... for many years. The issue is the low availability of spare batteries.
Hmmm, this made me wonder. Is it possible to swap a 62kwh battery pack to a second gen (ZE1) 40kwh Leaf? Considering it has similar engineering structure overall
Yes. There are other videos showing this. Springs need upgrade. Minor mod needed to fit physically plus canbus translator.
Bjorn you should inform yourself better. This hurts your credibility. while Nissan skipped the preferred, manageable, liquid cooling they were also aiming at keeping cost down. I am not defending them BUT you seem to skip a lot of the cooling engineering details they put on to these packs… there is crafted metal bars picking heat and transporting out of the modules… perhaps if you watch Weber professor channel on his battery dissembly and an actual technical view of the process ….
I'm interested in the cooling solution for the first generation Hyundai IONIQ, which doesn't have such a problem with overheating thanks to active air cooling. Presumably there will be some channels in the battery through which air passes and thus indirectly cools the battery cells.
There's a large fan in the trunk that pulls air from the cabin through the battery pack.
IT FINALLY HAPPENED! ... Bjorn with glasses. 😆
I would give him gloves too :D
Shiiieeet
amazing. Nissan just said "nah we'll just put no cooling and call it passive cooling"
Its someone at the door!
Bjørn, the *main problem of Nissan Leaf batteries isn't the cooling system* , is the programming limits of charging and discharging, you must talk with Jorge González, director of @80electrico Training Center on Electric Vehicles, has proven experience with Leafs, you can see videos about it on its channel
@Bjorn: Hey, if you're going to touch the internals of a battery please wear the insulating gloves like Valdemar does. With your 1.5 children we don't want to see them without a father!
Electroboom moment
Chameleon battery. Zebra was molten salt!
I agree the Leaf 24 would never really suffer “rapid gate” - it got hot as heck but keep on trucking.
Think city?
News: Customer deliveries of new Model 3s are currently scheduled to start 8. November in Norway.
is still nmc . about the 62kw???
at 12:50 I guess you meant Lizard battery
Yes, I meant Lizard battery. Thank you.
I honestly want to drive my renault zoe all the way to Elbilmek to get it serviced (1600km from UK)😂 the mechanics here suck and no one specialises in EV maintanance in the UK
Experience in BEV since 2010
Where is this place located?
Norway.
My 62 is better than my 30 for temperature tolerance.
It is still impossible to understand why the Leaf II did not get active cooling, although it would be simple via air conditioning. Hey Nissan, why? :-) For me the Leaf II is still nice ev!
I suggest that the original design criteria for the LEAF was covered by the passive cooled battery. It is only when you stretch the demand that there arises a problem. The early idea was apparently based around the typical family car usage, local journeys mainly. The design has worked well enough to be extended into a medium range car simply by upping battery size.
My own experience goes from a 24 first edition LEAF through Gen 2, and 2.zero 40Kwh. to my current 62 Acenta. From a car that needed a top up for a 100 miles visit to family through to a car that managed a 2100 miles summer trip with several rapid charges during the longer sections. It was 5 months before I needed to charge the 62 LEAf away from home, so called 'Rapidgate' is no problem for me.
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What is your opinion off planned obsolescence. Just yesterday watched video off Ev clinic from Croatia where they showed it for Mercedes Ev, they showed it on smart but is same for all other Mercedes EVs. There is counter that start from 300k but goes down 1 less every time you press start button. You would thing is enough but every computer error drops 5000 and there are even low voltage glitches that down 100k.And when drop to zero it lock batter even is perfectly good and you can't do nothing except drop giant pile off money for new battery
Bjorn, you are touching the open battery all the time. This is maybe not a good idea...
I guess the owner are still satifyed with "the loooooong lifespan" on ev batteries.
NISSAN LEAF BATTERY = bad chemistry cells plus no cooling sistem.
Leaf is A great car , yes, very robust motor and zero troubles with it, but has a bad battery inside.
I would have loved to have Kurt Olsson (SVT) explain the internals of an EV battery 😅 and how "sladden" (the cable) connects everything 😂 Per (DK)
Sounds like there is an EOPatch/Glucomenday insulin pump in the background beeping. Must have passed 3.5 days.
I believe Johnathan Portfield Eco Cars first discovered rapidgate in the 30 kWh Leaf (IIRC, maybe it was 40 kWh). He had driven 24 kWh Leafs from south England to Orkney with no issues when fast charging on the way. When the 30 kWh Leaf came out, he was caught off gard with extended charging times due to "rapidgate." The internal resistance of the original cells used in the 24 kWh Leaf was very low, permitting fast charging without thermal management. Nissan and NEC engineers (at AESC JV) provided more capacity cells for 30, 40, and 62 kWh packs, but at the cost of higher internal resistance. That produced more heat when fast charging and now the Leaf *really* needed thermal management.
Didn't he and James drive from the south to the port in Aberdeen with the two different battery sized Leafs in a "race" and find the bigger battery was no faster coining 'Rapidgate' that day??
The 40 came last between a 30 and a ionic 28
@@peteglass3496 But does such a 'Race' have any relevance to most owners?
Ever thought about putting another 24Kwh Battery on a roof rack? #BarleyLegal
300 kg on the roof rack? lol
Nissan already learn from leaf and then ariya was born.
Yep
bjorn you should wear gloves!!!
This is an example of a shieeeety job from Nissan, never learned from their mistakes until Aria, giving a bad image of EVs.
Adding mineral oil to 64kwh battery will cool it down faster 😅
The design of a CATL LFP battery in the model 3/Y is also much cleaner than this.
True. Sandy Munro was quite impressed by the Tesla LFP battery. Very sleek design.
Probably best to just scrap all old Leaf's at this point. The car is so outdated in battery design and Chademo plug 😂
They are great for city use and home charging. Not good for long tips obviously, but people with 2 cars this could be ideal.
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