Could Paulus have abandoned Stalingrad before encirclement? BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD E37
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2022
- Could Paulus have mounted a breakout operation before he was encircled at Stalingrad? With Operation Uranus in full swing, it's doubtful. Yet many historians and German generals have suggested that "nervous Paulus" could have disobeyed Hitler's stand fast order and pulled the 6th Army away from danger. But the sources suggest something different...
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⚔️ If you like Stalingrad, you may also enjoy historian Anton Joly's CZcams channel "Stalingrad Battle Data". Link: / @armageddon4145
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Historian Jason D. Mark also has a website where you can purchase his books from : www.leapinghorseman.com/
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📽️ RELATED VIDEO LINKS 📽️
BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD S1/E1 - The 6th Army Strikes! • BATTLESTORM STALINGRAD...
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ABOUT TIK 📝
History isn’t as boring as some people think, and my goal is to get people talking about it. I also want to dispel the myths and distortions that ruin our perception of the past by asking a simple question - “But is this really the case?”. I have a 2:1 Degree in History and a passion for early 20th Century conflicts (mainly WW2). I’m therefore approaching this like I would an academic essay. Lots of sources, quotes, references and so on. Only the truth will do.
This video is discussing events or concepts that are academic, educational and historical in nature. This video is for informational purposes and was created so we may better understand the past and learn from the mistakes others have made.
It speaks volumes about German's logistical and fuel situation in this stage of war when 700 motorized equipment is just sitting around in a depot far behind front lines, getting dust on, or snow in this case.
The oil crisis of the Axis powers is indeed overlooked. Thanks, for enlightening us TIK!
I noticed that to, a good point. The Germans in the pocket mostly only had the mobility of walking.
Hence why they couldn’t retreat. They were essentially demobilized and had relied on horses but with the horses went far into the rear the Soviets struck at the perfect time. German army in Stalingrad would’ve needed days just to regroup, reorganize, pull out of the city, and gather the little fuel they had to form a armored spearhead for the break through.
The same time happened to the German Army to the SE of Berlin during the fall of Berlin. Gather what’s left of your heavy weaponry and the fuel to power them and use it to breakthrough Soviet lines and them abandon them once out of fuel and hopefully open a gap for your men to get through while your rear guard sacrifices themselves to stall the Soviets long enough before the breakdown is closed.
Energy and fuel is still the Achilles heel of the German economy
@@tstocker6926 *sad german noises*
@@henriklarssen1331 , If you look at Europe oil production , its not very much.
I think the reason why Paulus was chosen as a scapegoat for the whole thing is rather simple: he went over to the Soviets and the rest of the German general corps never forgave him for that. So he was an easy target no one would really protect post-war.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
@@Comradez
Yeah nah
Yep. After WW2 they were looking for scapegoats, dead (like Hitler) or alive.
Being in Soviet captivity doesn't allow you to defend your case and point the finger at others. It also discredits you in the eyes of the generals who told you to stand fast and then failed to break through to you.
Went over? Wasn't he simply captured by Soviet soldiers?
I'll be honest here the Romanians did a lot better than I originally thought. I was always under the impression that they just folded when a day of the attack.
I think part of the problem is that the campaign is so long that historians have been compelled to whiz through the entire thing in one book, which means that several days get condensed into a couple of sentences at best. The result is "the Romanian lines collapsed", which is technically true, but in reality it was more complicated than that.
@@TheImperatorKnight that makes sense. Especially as most of my knowledge on the eastern front came from a series of books that time magazine published in the 70s.
@@TheImperatorKnight That's an interesting thought- a kind of temporal relativism. Another example of this is saying the Roman Empire was weak since it succumbed to barbarian invaders, when in reality this glosses over the complicated and complex wars and relations between the Romans and the Germanics... I wonder how many other events are unduly simplified due to being so far removed from them due to time.
@@Talmurid Fear of the parthians
The Roma Ian's did not lack ability. They were badly underarmed and undersupplied. Any German army in that situation would have failed.
It's amazing how long the Battle of Stalingrad really took and all the turning points and decisions that led to its outcome.
Thank you very much for your efforts in providing an accurate account of the events TIK
Truly THE breath of fresh air needed in a huge and valuable topic like this in WW2.
For me, this episode is the climax of the entire series.
I had a general idea of the sequence of events at Stalingrad. But seeing everything laid out in detail, and most importantly with CONTEXT.
Even if Paulus had wanted to break out of the pocket, where was the 6th army supposed to go? They're literally hundreds of miles away from anything approaching safety and they would lack transportation and heavy equipment. The German general, who said a breakout would be of Napoleonic catastrophe, was spot on.
It probably would have been worse. napoleon had some horses left. The Germans would have had to make a full fighting retreat all the way, while being over run by the russians, in the middle of storms, food shortage, etc.
The Germans had got themselves into this mess weeks ago. After that it was a case of playing out the inevitable disaster.
The most surprising thing about this stage is there was no 11th Kotluban offensive on the 19th/20th Nov.
:)
There were attacks in the north designed to distract the Germans, but they were weak and didn't do anything noteworthy.
Dang it, bwv1044! this is Kotluban, not the Isonzo!
:P
Jokes aside: I doubt even the Red Army was THAT poorly led.
Kotluban offensive counter?
That is because and 11th Kotluban offensive concept by this point would have been has-been... Instead they would have rather wanted an TWELTH KOTLUBAN OFFENSIVE!
Hell yeah!
The analisys of difrent conflicting sources and making out some sort of coherent theory out if it is absolutely amasing academic tier work. This is great work TIK. Im sure people could get phds out of the content you put out for us here
I never understood what many historians wanted Paulus to do, If he abandoned his positions and broke out on foot even on the 20th, they would abandon defensive positions and free up the other soviet armies in the north and east. If they were delayed in escaping, as they would as the soviet calvary and motorized units racing to kalach had better mobility, they would have been slaughtered on the steppe. Looking at a map, its absurd, casualties would have been atrocious, morales would be low if abandoning stalingrad, it would be a rout. The blame should be that all reserves had been committed to stalingrad and army group b didnt have sufficient reserves at kalach to do much to stop the soviet advance. Paulus sent what scraps he had west.
Yes, and as someone else has pointed out, withdrawing in the middle of a blizzard wouldn't be easy. Paulus would have had a difficult time as it was if he'd been fighting in the summer. Given the immobility of his army and the fact he only really understood the danger of encirclement at mid-day on the 21st, it really doesn't make sense to order a withdraw.
Realistically Stalingrad would have had to have been won in the beginning of the Base Blue offensive. Had the Germans driven straight to Kalach, they would've had much better odds of taking it. After scattering the Soviet front line, they could have made for their ground objectives instead of going for encirclements of troops that didn't even exist.
@@pax6833 I agree. Except for one thing. Those hundreds of thousands of "missing" Russian troops had to be somewhere and only a fool would ignore them and hope they had simply kept on running until they got to the Urals.
@@davidburroughs2244 The russians had withdrawn and instead of pursuing them, Hitler told his commanders to "encircle" Rostov thinking they would capture the Soviet Army. It wasted a TON of time and caused a massive logistics disaster that took a week to undo where they weren't moving toward Stalingrad while the Soviets set up new defenses.
@@pax6833 I am not sure that even if Stalingrad had taken to the Germans the southern war would have been over. I am sure the Russians would have kept on coming until they had retaken Stalingrad and fully retaken the oil fields further south. I can see few ways Germany could win this one. The German challenges and goals there was a bit of a task too far for their overall unimportant previous victories to offset.
This is such a concise rebuttal to the "conventional wisdom" propagated the last 80 years about the breakout option, thanks TIK!
People forget that the 6th Army had responsibilities to the entire Army Group, not just to its own survival. What if Paulus had ordered a breakout on November 21st, and in the disorder, rush, and having to leave behind almost all vehicles and heavy weapons (because of lack of fuel reserves/horses/time to prepare/etc.), what if the 6th Army had just completely disintegrated, and instead of tieing up 4+ Soviet armies until Feb. 3rd, had just left the door completely open for the Soviets to take Rostov in a matter of days, shutting the door on the entire Caucasus force before Manstein could react and precipitating an even bigger crisis? Paulus's ultimate decision to stand ground might have been the only reason the Soviets ultimately had to demote the planned Operation Saturn to Operation Little Saturn, and the only reason the Caucasus forces were able to mostly withdraw through the Rostov gate at all.
I should also add: we may be starting to see in the current Ukraine conflict the extent to which even larger numbers of troops can be relatively ineffective (especially at going on the offensive/conducting breakouts) when they lack heavy weapons. Ukraine is, in theory, supposed to have several times the number of troops mobilized than Russia by now, and yet Ukraine's counter-offensives have been petering out after capturing a village or two. That may still change, but as things stand now, Paulus's decision to stand ground where at least they could still use what vehicles and heavy weapons they had is looking smarter and smarter judging from Ukraine's experiences in the ongoing war.
@@Comradez Ukrainian strategy is a joke. They are literally creating an army of Orcs conceived by "Saruman", based on anti Russian sentiment and burning Russians books. That is not a military strategy. That is childish. Worse - it is delusional.
@@ShamanKish I would agree that there is certainly delusional hubris on the part of the Ukrainian war aims and strategy. Their most advantageous time for a negotiated ceasefire was in early April just after the Russian strategic withdrawal out of the Kiev/Sumy theaters. Ukraine might have been able to limit their territorial concessions to just Crimea and Donbass and their diplomatic concessions to ruling out NATO (but leaving in possibility of EU membership) at that point. But now, I suspect that Russia is so fed up with Ukraine and so distrusting of it that Russia will never give up the portions of Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, and Kharkiv oblasts that they've acquired, and that Ukraine expelling Russia from those regions (or the Donbass) by force are looking increasingly remote.
@@Comradez Because Ukrainian masters are ideologically defined and determined, there is no possibility to negotiate with them. The idea which controls them will simply not allow it. By the way, they keep repeating from the very beginning: No diplomacy! 😎 And (to illustrate) judging by what Bojo is proposing right now , it's clear that land war with Russia is what concerns western politicians rather than economic situation at their home. They just don't care about economy. That is part of their strategy! They are completely delusional.
Imagine panicking retreat across hundreds of kilometers and dozens of rivers. It would be Napoleon 2.0
The thing that hits me the hardest, is that in this case there is enough information for TIK to build a counter-narrative to what is the accepted story of the events. How many stories of history, in fact, bear little resemblance to what actually happened because no information survives to build a counter-narrative?
Yes I have often pondered the fact that memoirs are only written by survivors. They then "make sense of it all" which is a natural human habit. I often what the killed would make of it all and if they would consider it a worthwhile sacrifice.
I've wanted to comment this for the longest but I always get sidetracked by the video. Thank you for adding the source material right on screen and thank you for the extra editing required to do that. It's such a great help. Excellent video as always.
I hope you're feeling better TIK!
Mostly, thank you. I was still a bit off when recording the video and tried to compensate
Ex fascist?
@@TheImperatorKnight I was thinking that you might be. You sound good to me.
@@KaraBoga69 That's me!
There is a saying: "Victory has many fathers, but defeat doesn't even have a mother"
That is why everything is "mad hitler's " fault
I think TIK did a good job showing that the important German mistakes were made long before Operation Uranus. The Axis forces were stretched way too thin across this entire front, and the logistics capacity too limited for the Germans to do much of anything when Uranus was begun. It wasn't that the wrong option was chosen in these handful of days, rather there were no good options to take. Credit the Soviets for putting together an offensive that found the weak points in the Axis line, and executed it at a pace that prevented the 6th Army from having the time to react effectively. The real story of Uranus isn't the German command becoming dumb, it's the growing competence of the Red army.
@@Edax_Royeaux Or reinforcing the southern front with a reserve army instead of AGC. Which makes no sense since there's nothing vital for AGC to defend, unlike AGS.
Very well said
So where are all these idle armies or antitank guns going to come from?
@@Edax_Royeaux I see they were made from 1942 on so they would have been available in Germany. However getting them and their ammunition to the Romanian forces on the Don steppe was probably way beyond anything the Germans were capable of. There would also have been a training requirement. Did the Romanians even have Pak 38's at this stage?
The German logistics weren't capable of carrying the demand. They were choosing to send boys, bullets, and bandaids and had not the capacity to send, for example, many things which they had, such as winter uniforms, gas (which they lacked), and anti-tank guns and ammo. They had miscalculated what they would need and what they would have to have to get it all there.
The weather played a huge factor here too.. There was a massive white out blizzard in the middle of all of this then followed by days of super dense fog.. these guys couldn’t see more than 20 feet in front of them for the most part
Yes! You can imagine the panic and chaos if Paulus gave the order to withdraw
@@TheImperatorKnight I am thinking about the German movie Stalingrad at the end of it where the soldiers just walk out into the blizzard and freeze to death.
@@rring44 Yes, the treeless steppe in a winter blizzard is kind of the worst possible environment in which to be doing a breakout on foot without vehicles or heavy weapons. It would be suicidal. At least, staying in the Stalingrad pocket, they had the rubble of the city as "shelter" and could continue distracting several Soviet armies for another several months, even if their own survival was hopeless.
I read the book till the last breath or until your last breath… can’t quite remember but it was a first hand account of a soldier who was eventually transferred to the Stalingrad staging area when this all went down… and the panic… then days later getting smashed by the Russian army when it regrouped..
And yet the "totally immune to winter weather conditions" soviets managed to perform an ARMY-encirclement operation... Trying to portray german warmachine as completely incompetent and incapable again?
One thing you didn't cover in this rapidly evolving situation situation is that Paulus probably didn't know exactly what was going on at any given time. It would have been very difficult to make decisions
I did mention that he was only informed by von Weichs about the possibility of encirclement on the mid-morning of the 21st. But yes, we're seeing the battlefield with a lot more information than Paulus had. The 6th Army assumed that the cavalry corps was the main threat until the tanks were spotted.
Erik Hare He had plenty of time to understand before Uranus that advancing east with unprotected flanks deep into the Soviet Union was military insanity. Not to mention giving up the German trump card of mobility to fight a protracted urban struggle.
also because Japan decided not to attack the Soviets in the rear the Siberian Army of 1 million men literally were Unleashed to fight Hitler and visibility was 10 yd at the most and this secret army literally crawled up on her stomachs over 100 miles and surrounded Hitler Hitler's Army the sixth Army and they had determined had no idea they were being surrounded also they burned all the grain silos and the Germans themselves brought starvation upon theirselves
@@stevensnake3008 i still couldn't figure out why Japan didn't attacks Siberian after Soviet withdraw million mens
Maybe their situation for offensive was impossible to conduct plus their force mostly concentrated in China.
@@metalfire86ablei belive it have no reason to
And striking south demands much less manpower with much more rewards
While striking north all they face would be forest and snow with poor infurstructure they would gain practically nothing while lose to winter attrition
What an episode ! I'm wondering how Chuikov felt at this moment. The madlad held the thin red line until Operation Uranus. Must have felt great to finally see a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel.
this!
Chuikov, if he had had all the facts, would still be apprehensive, but worried that this new hope might just lead to another month of hell and death.He did not know what collossal moves were going on.
Good to see you back, TIK. Always take care of your health!
Day instantly improved with new Stalingrad video! Thanks TIK!
The Germans were prepared to fend off another Kotluban offensive. They were not prepared to fend off an offensive almost an order of magnitude larger in scale. Their under-estimation prior to 19th of November of Soviet reserves and equipment and mobility and offensive striking capabilities (and thus their assumption that any offensive would have the less ambitious objective of severing some rail lines to Stalingrad from the North, rather than a double-sided pincer to completely encircle 6th Army) is what doomed the 6th Army. After 19th of November, there was little the 6th Army could have done differently to get any better outcome.
Underestimation of Soviet mobilization and industrial capacity was one of the major causes of Operation Barbarossa in general.
One other argument for the blame falling on Paulus could have been his inability to defend himself, since he lived behind the iron curtain when the accounts of the battle were written. In Adittion to this, Paulus was captured by the red army and was thus seen as dishonored by the rest of the german officers, which made it easier to paint him in a bad light.
YES! Made my day again here TIK! And this *with* decent subtitles... Keep up the good work mate!
Your skill at storytelling is on par with your brilliance as a researcher. Thank you for continuing this extraordinary series.
Thinking back of all the videos on this specific topic (Stalingrad) it was only recently that I realized what a work of Herculeanian proportions this entire series must be, considering the amount of detail, the many different viewpoints, the excellent analysis and careful avoidance of too convenient judgement by other historians or witnesses of the time. Not to mention the work that must have gone into making the maps with outlines of units, commanders and shifting frontlines. To me this is an above and beyond Phd-thesis effort. And then we even haven't talked about all other, related videos. Admirable doesn't begin to cover my sincere appreciation.
I firmly believe that with this series TIK could have earned a doctorate of history at any prestigious university.
It continuously impresses me just how well made, graphically speaking, this series is.
A Few Minutes of History from Tik Tok told me to check this channel! And I’m happy I did!
History student - Mr Stahel, when you you think the Germans lost, at what point?
Le Stahel - 3:16AM, 22nd June 1941.
Student- B-but.. Mr Stahel they just started the invasion barely a minute ago??
David Stahel- Exactly ;)
This. 👍
Its the enlightened view. Also I like to play with the scenario that France folding so easily was an accident. Germany didn't have the resources to occupy it anyways, and winning gave them the hubris to bog down in the Balkans and then invade Russia. The more one study's the war, the more unwinnable it becomes.
@@Pangora2 If anything the fall of France in 1940 was a coming together of almost everything working in favor of the attacker and everything working against the defender. It was the perfect storm at the right exact moment. Like 9-11 was. You try bringing down to skyscrapers by flying 2 aircraft into them. Chances are you will probably never get to replicate that feat again if you could. Sometimes luck favors one side and misfortune the other. The mistake is in not recognizing the extraordinary circumstances of everything going right and expecting it to happen again.
They actually lost the war already on September 1st 1939.
I am forming an opinion right now. The biggest mistake made might be, to even commit all forces constantly. It made them unable to react.
Similar I have experienced in strategy games, where if you commit forces to the end, never stop and form a reserve, everything has to be "calculated" to victory. Impossible in the real world by fog of war.
The Soviet deep strike doctrine had it that exploitation force was to be completely separate from the breakthrough force. Attacking with the exploitation force as part of the breakthrough was a sign of bad generalship and losing your nerve in the heat of the moment. Which happened more often then it should, most case even late in the war Zhukov committing his tank armies into the meatgrinder of the Seelow Heights battle as he was getting frustrated in his breaktrough and Konev was already moving towards Berlin. As for reserves, even in the darkest days of 1941 the Soviets always managed to create army sized reserve forces with which they managed to blunt and frustrate German offensives after they had successfully destroyed Soviet armies and even fronts. The Germans never managed this feat and even committed their only army sized reserve force, 2nd Army, early in the Barbarossa campaign. And from then on struggled to skim enough forces from quiet sector to create an operational reserve for the Eastern Front. Which was a major reason why ultimately they abandoned the Rhzev salient in 1943 and launched operation Citadel to cut off the Kursk salient.
They never had enough forces to form that reserve. The entire Fall Blau was predicated on the fact the USSR was ready to collapse
Of course it wasn't just that Paulus and others just sent everything they could to front lines and didn't have reserves. They suffered through months of battle and attrition and had to constantly commit reserves to various places to maintain their positions and launch attacks such that by the time of Uranus, there were basically no reserves left.
Thats an easy opinion to have if you have enough forces to have reseves. When you are stretched thin you dont have the luxury of reserve forces, they needed to carve out their winter defensive positions before winter and then dig in. The fastest way to do that is to commit all you have.
@@juliantheapostate8295 To be fair, the entirety of Barbarossa was launched on the assumption that they only had to "kick in the door and the entire rotten structure will come crashing down"
Great!!!! Hope your feeling better, TIK. Been anxious about this series and now I'm ecstatic. Yeahhhh!
What an impressive episode. It seems TIKs passion is back.
To the point: the whole thing starts to make sense now. Paulus is basically blamed for not teleporting 250 thousand men strong army with all the equipment 200km west over winter steppe without fuel while fighting the fresh and well supplied Soviet armored armies.
Well argued and comprehensive. It is ludicrous to think a major withdrawal of all the forces in Stalingrad could be done in a day or two. The disposition of the forces scattered both within the city and along the northern perimeter would take quite a time to organize and lines of defense were absolutely necessary or the units of the 6th Army would be easily defeated if they lacked any cohesion.
Fascinating piece of history that needed some real scrutiny. A lot of us always wanted to know what did go on. TIK delivers again the most compelling argument to date.
Paulus had few options. Forming an all round defence pocket must have been the priority, or get over run from the rear.
Withdrawal would have been an immediate rout and certain destruction of the 6th Army, for there was no fuel, no ammunition, no vehicles, no horses, and no plan. Plus the distance to friendly territory was long and an unknown quantity.
All in a blizzard.
All credit to the Soviets for pulling their plan off and on such a scale.
Thanks for your incredible work!
This is such a fantastic series! Absolutely thrilled when a new episode is released. Appreciate the time and effort that goes into producing these, thank you TIK.
wow I cant wait for the next episode, you are doing a tremendous and HUGE job here TIK thanks for your videos!
Just made my week can't wait for the next one!!!
Another great episode Lewis, good work
Lewis, thanks for all you do for us. This was a lot to unpack, you made it understandable.
Past week I've been watching Battlestorm from Episode 1 and now I'm here to the most recent episode. I'm so glad I've took the time to watch this, I've never been so taken by a documentary series. Truly TIK, you do a marvelous job and I look forward to seeing the climatic end.
10:07 BobRosskii Must be some happy little trees there, eh?
I really appreciate you marking units that you are referring to with a solid colored backer card!
Yeah, the place is called "Bobrovskii", but I thought I could improve it slightly 😂
@@TheImperatorKnight I'm sure the Soviets would have appreciated some calmness and positivity around this time.
The reason so many people keep it simple (blame one or two men) is basic history education (high school level)
You get shoved so much down your throat from Neanderthals to 1980s in 4 years, that basicly WWII, which still is a significant part of the 4th year, is just "they went to Stalingrad where they failed and then took 2 years to reach home".
You gotta have a special interest to ask questions and have someone like TIK read gazillion books about it to finally get a little more insight.
TV documentaries are just as bad as school, not because auf quality, but because what can you put into a few hours?
This series is a ton of researched boiled down to the absolute minimum to get only a basic understanding. To really understand it, you'd have to read TIKs book list yourself a few times.
Hats off to you sir. You are my hero.
Man, the amount of work you have to do making these videos truly staggers me! And with so few mistakes so consistently to boot! Your work is top notch as always TIK! Cheers!
when this series is said and done it's going to be really unrivaled among documentaries about World War 2 and is as epic as the battle of Stalingrad was
I think one important thing to consider in these decisions is that the Battle of Stalingrad wasn't about the German Sixth Army, it was about winning the war. "Saving the sixth army" should not be a goal into itself, but only matter if it can lead to a strategic advantage in the war.
If you withdraw from Stalingrad, you are essentially giving up all the successes of Case Blue and are back to where you were months earlier with thousands of dead and an ever more capable Soviet Army in front of you. So even if you get Sixth Army out mostly intact (well in the state it was on the eve of Uranus), does that actually help your strategic position?
If they could somehow hold their positions in Stalingrad until the Soviet offensive is stopped and Manstein breaks through, you still have a knife pressed against the throat of Soviet oil supplies.
With hindsight we know Manstein had no real hope to break through and the war was going to be lost no matter what happened at Stalingrad, but I could see an argument in November 1942 that, in terms of winning the war, the small chance of holding their foothold on Stalingrad could be worth risking the loss of the quarter million men around Stalingrad. And it isn't just sunk-cost fallacy. If they withdrew, reformed and resumed the offensive in 1943, how much more would be lost getting back to the Volga and how much benefit would the Soviets get having secured the Volga until then?
Shaun Young What you say is true. But manpower is also important. The Soviets and Western Allies could replace losses. The Germans were already by 1942 drawing on their last reserves of military-age men. After Stalingrad, they could not begin to match the manpower reserves of the enemies they made and their allies (Romanians, Italians, and Hungarians) were effectively knocked out of the War. It is 1943that they begin to face vastly larger and better-armed Soviet and western forces.
@@dennisweidner288 But something like 200,000 men (there would be major losses pulling out) aren't going to change the big picture in 1943. Losing 250,000 men to keep their positions in Stalingrad and threatening Soviet access to the Caucasian oil fields would likely be well worth it for the Germans.
And, unlike something like Dunkirk, it would be hard to spin it as a victory in propaganda as even if Sixth Army successfully withdrew. Stalingrad was still a massive loss by an army that has established a reputation of victory coming on the heels of Second El Alamein and Torch.
@@88porpoise I do not disagree with you. Even if the 6th army had been saved the germans faced oivee=helming odds by 1943. but losing the most powerful formation in the German Army was a huge loss. I am not arguing that they should have tied to breakout only that manpower had become a major issue for the Germans. And the loss of equipment for the inefficient German war economy was also an issue,
Losing 300,000 experienced soldiers is never good.
If my understanding is right, the flanks fought amazingly given the circumstances. They lacked men, mobility, and equipment but still put up resistance for as long as they did.
bangythebrav I am not sure the flanks "fought amazingly " but what you say in absolutektlky true. They were unmotorized and lacked heavy equipment, both tanks, and artillery. The untold story of Stalingrad is WHY the German allies were so poorly equipped.
Great presentation in this series bud, really appreciate all your hard work.
Thanks for the video mate great job as always ☺️
It's not very surprising to see Von Manstein advocating for an early breakout in his memoirs considering that the man wanted to retreat all the way to Berlin just a little while later.
He was realistic.
@@ShamanKish Realistic had Manstein been an american/soviet general. Retreating to Berlin and giving up every conquest then wouldve been a good realistic outcome for his side.
How lucky those Soviet POWs were that just happened to be in the path of the advancing Red Army Tank Corps with no one bothering to move them. Soviet POWs in German hands did not have a great chance of surviving, and the ones that ended up in Stalingrad had none.
for your information chance not to be punish liberated soviet POW was very low, they were treated as traitors.
@@gromosawsmiay3000 if not, then they died within a few days in a penal batallion.
Stalin and his NKWD waisted everybody's Actually more than Germans did in combat
Some of your have been listening to too much nazi cold war propaganda look up the statistics.
Amazing video!! Thanks for making this.
Love this series amazing videos always appreciate all your hard work and effort
WOW! Fantastic episode. And yes, when you lay out the timeline, it's clear - the Red Army out played the Germans, period, full stop. When Paulus and the entire German High Command would have needed to order a breakout BEFORE the commencement of the offensive, or to have taken equally radical action weeks to months early to stem the encirclement (pulling divisions from AG Center or North or reinforce the flanks or provide a break in force), it's clear that the Red Army won the battle far more than the Germans lost it.
Im not sure Paulus could have extricated 6th Army in time from Stalingrad. Paulus was an easy scapegoat, Hitler would have had his head if he broke ranks with OKH and succeeded in breaking out. The Soviets had a field day capturing Luftwaffe airfields juicy with supplies. However, I was under the impression that the Romanians lines collapsed quickly and fled in abject disarray with the Soviets rampaging to link up with the southern flanking force. Thanks TIK for your hitherto magnificent series.
Even if he had broken rank with OKH he would likely need to abandon most of their equipment and supplies in the pocket, and pretty much walk out with just days worth of rations in solders bags. So they would be lakcing shelter, and food and heavy equipment in the middle of a major Soviet offensive. And nearest unit they could retreat to... is Army group A or something.
we have evidence that a breakout would have succeeded. Evidence comes from what happened in January 1943; the Italian Alpini were trapped and made it to the Axis lines, loosing 50% of the men, but they made it. In far more horrible weather conditions and without any single one panzer
@@gabrieletagliaventi5516 Were there Axis units on the other side to accept them and did they have to leave heavy equipment.
Also, Alpini I would imagine would be much better prepared to venture into blizzard than normal Axis solders.
your videos are literally the only thing I look forward too. very good.
Another great video - love this series :)
Romanian armies at Stalingrad, both of them, were moved there after the previous Crimeea campaign where they fought really hard and took Sevastopol, first unit to reach the harbor was a Romanian unit btw. And it was a Romanian Mountain Corps unit which took the crucial Sugar Loaf position at Sevastopol and also it was the Romanians which took Balaklava with 10 000 russian prisoners.
The Stalingrad front was considered a quiet one on the flanks considering the complete routing of the soviet armies prior of the germans reaching the city.
Romanian forces were moved there to rest and re-build. Remember that it was also the middle of the winter and no military operations were expected outside the skirmishes in Stalingrad. So nobody bothered in reinforcing the Romanians or the Italians guarding the flanks. They were supposed to be rebuild in the spring, March-April for the summer offensive and in the meantime just rest and resist the winter best they could.
Romanians fought as they always did, bravely. when the attack begun. They repulsed the initial attack and they only started getting into trouble when the russians send in the heavy armor against which Romanians had no counter. And they still resisted bravely. Three generals were killed leading bayonet charges.
Romania is the forgotten ally and was the most important german ally of the entire war BY FAR except Japan. And Japan only because it kept the americans from fully committing to the european theatre.
Romania just ended on the wrong side of history at the end of the war so they were forgotten and overlooked. Germans and russians did it on purpose. Minimizing Romanian contribution to the war to make themselves look good and painting Romanians as some just some losers cannon fodder that run at the first shot. Nothing can be further from the truth
Fully recommend this answer on Quora about Romanians in WW2:
www.quora.com/How-well-did-the-Romanian-Army-perform-during-WW2
Razvan Anghel You make an importnt point. And I suspect the same is true for the Hungarians and Italians, Too often the Axus allies are dismissed as incompetent and lacking in fighting spirit. Simply ignored is that the Germans did not provide then heavy weapons. Almost never asked is WHY? Why were the axis allies and much of the Ostheer so poorly equipped? After all the Germans had a much larger heavy industry capacity than the Soviets. There is endless discussion of tactics and not a word about economic performance. The simple fact is that the German economic performance given their industrial capacity was miserable and much of their industrial output was diverted to fighting the War in the West. The men with east, but industrial output went West--a recipe for disaster, In addition, the Soviet economic performance was startling.
Great analysis TIK, exposing the failures of the German generals and giving credit to the Red Army where due.
KernowPolski Yes very important. The German myth of military brilliance still persists. Even more important is the superior Soviet economic performance. After losing major industrial cities (only part of the industry in these cities was evaluated east) and having a fraction of German heavy industry to begin with, the Soviets outproduced the Germans in key areas--especially tanks and artillery. Too often these discussions are only about the military. Without the industry needed to wage war, the military can not win battles. The best example here was Poland.
Great stuff. The incredibly complex is explained in a way that it can be navigated
I was waiting for this video. Thanks tik :D
Good Vid Tik.. I think realistically any breakout attempt (either now or later) would have ended in a Napoleonic catastrophe!! 6th Army was already exhausted and even in late 42 was largely reliant on horses..Which weren't even there!!
Another great video.
Some historians & back-seat drivers seem to think Paulus could have successfully evacuated Stalingrad while the Soviets would just sit there watching them go. No, the Soviets would have taken advantage of the retreat attacking at every instance probably causing a disastrous rout. The shortage of fuel and transportation along with the horrible weather made such a retreat/break-out highly prone to failure.
Staying put awaiting a relief force to provide a counter-weight to the heavy mass of Soviet forces was a reasonable decision.
Imagine choking points over the bridges. Imagine traffic jams, broken equipment, heavy equipment that would be abandoned...
If not the only decision, for the sake of the relief force, every other german army and the 6th itself.
This series is amazing in detail. Keep it up 👍
I absolutely love TIK ! The only show I actually wait for anxiously !
I keep repeating myself, but still: excellent episode as always. Thanks for the meticulous analysis of the sources. And thanks for debunking the myths peddled by the Nazi bastards like Manstein after the war, it can't be done enough and you're doing a great job :) Keep up the great work!
Theres nothing wrong repeating how good TIK does his job.
Seems like the only chance the Germans ever really had was to have given proper anti-tank weaponry to the Romanians in the first place, so that they could have at the least bought more time in the north.
Indeed, but it would have meant depriving their own forces.
Germany just didn't have a big enough arms industry and efficient enough logistics to fight the war which transpired
Could the Romanian lines have been "beefed-up" ? The answer is yes, but the process had to start no later than August 1st, 1942. What are some of the things that could have been done ? How about re-equiping the Romanian armored forces with captured Char-B French Tanks upgraded with German Optics, armament and radios ? In addition, could knocked-out T-34 Tanks, (some of them) have been repaired to augment the French Char B Tanks ? Could the Demansk salient have been abandoned in July 1942 ? This might have allowed 10-12 German Divisions to bolster the long Don River Flank. With the abandonment of the Demansk salient- could the Ju-52 transport planes formerly supplying the Demansk salient; could those planes have been modified to carry timber to the Romanian lines to help fortify their positions ? If so, where would the timber originate ? In saw mills set up behind the forested areas of Army Group Center. Could the 11th German Army, instead of being sent to Leningrad, stayed in the South and. Corseted the Hungarian sector ? Could 20 divisions on the Channel Coast in France have begun a transferr deployment starting in September 1942 & gradually transferred to the East; when the threat of a cross-channel invasion receded ? Could more captured French anti-tank guns and artillery have been provided ? These suggestions required foresight, planning and wise time-planning. Where were you General Maximilian Weichs?
@@robertleache3450 The German's logistics didn't have enough fuel for what the Eastern Front already required. Adding more fuel hungry vehicles would only have made a terrible situation even worse.
@@robertleache3450 I like how captured equipment all of a sudden can drive freely and shoot as many times as one can dream of... Reality is not a strategic game where you build a unit and it then moves and shoots wherever you click with your mouse button. Do you expect Axis forces building repair workshops en masse for french and soviet equipment? Which factories should produce the ammo for those? French factories? Now look at the European map and tell me how lon it ould take for ammo to catch up to tanks which are 3000km away from it?
There is a reason why, when an army marches forward the train, vehicle and horse caravans are moving on the roads nonstop!
@@cccpredarmy I did not say "all of a sudden." I emphasized wise time management, if you read my comments closely. Before you generalize, what may I ask, would you have done to strengthen the Axis Lines in the time frame from July-August 1942 ? At least my ideas offered some positive solutions at what might have helped. But since you and I will not agree, let others on this forum chime in with their opinions on what might have been done
. I just "love" naysayers who can not think out of the box-as it were-and not offer creative, positive remedies that MIGHT have prevented the disaster for the Axis satellite armies on the Don River Front. Let others voice their opinions and hopefully in a more respectful way than thou.
Well TIK you are making the best documentary ever about Stalingrad. I can imagine it takes a lot of effort but it is a masterpiece...
Nice to see you back!
You know this series really makes me consider the sheer organisational challenge that warfare is - its hard to even conceive of the many decisions and actions that must be made on an hour by hour basis but I think TIK does a good job of detailing it. I wonder what it is like in the Russo-Ukraine war, especially with the logistical nightmare that Russia must be facing.
What nightmare......Russia is basically fighting on its own border.
"To break out, or not to break out! That is the question." In view of what I learned through this series, and from my own reading before, the German high command really acted like a headless chicken sometimes (e.g. when things went bad for them). No wonder Hitler felt the need to appoint himself as the supreme commander. Someone had to hold the reins of this mess, lmao. And while Hitler had some capacity for strategy, he was no military genius. Anyway, I can understand why he lost his nerve so many times, and shouted at his generals... I mean, who wouldn't, just look at this mess!
They only ever planned to win.
The mess you talk about was the result of Hitler's poor decisions in the context of operation Blau.
TIK has finally given humanity a reason to look forward to Monday’s 👏🏻
Have read several books on Stalingrad, but your series provides significant insights and additional information.
Thank you!
Supply lines stretched! Bitter cold. Low on fuel, ammo and food. Out manned. Exhausted and gallant soldiers. Luftwaffe failed.
A retreat to the shorter line previously proposed would've taken weeks to prepare and pull off successfully, 6th Army had 48 hours to react to getting completely encircled with few resources now to even do a prepared withdrawal. A panicked retreat really would've been a faster death of the 6th Army and a total collapse of the southern front for Germany, so the best they could hope for is the sacrifice of the 6th Army so the rest of the Army could retreat back and stabilize the entire front. Sometimes in war you just have to eat a shit sandwich, certainly the Soviets did for much of 1941, it was Germany's turn in 1942.
Maybe a withdraw from the Kotluban area to shorten the lines would have been a good idea? As it would have freed some german tank and motorized divisions to be used in the counter attacks against the soviet pincers. and to keep the corridor open at Kalach. Also maybe a withdraw of the 11th corps to the south, but as you said they would have lost most of their heavy weapons due to a lack of fuel and they'd have to march on foot. Now i understand the kotluban was a good defensive position and the soviets had lost many men trying to take it, but was it worth it to keep those motorized and tank divisions occupied there for months? They could have set up an operational reserve so when operation uranus struck they'd have something to fill the gaps with.
Other than that, thanks a lot for the video!
Whichever way you arrange the divisions they were just stretched to thin and without adequate logistics.
If the Kotlaban area had not been held the city would have been reinforced. Making all the attacks on the city impossible. Once Uranus started it was to late any of this.
Thanks for another great vid.
Video is just great! Thx!
The breakout argument is settled imho. How are a bunch of half starved Germans without fuel or pack animals going to disengage from the 62nd Army, walk out into the frozen, wide open steppe and avoid being cut down by Soviet tanks?
11:27 so actually when you said earlier the Soviet victory might be stopped if they were prevented from reaching Kalach (?) that is only true in an theoretical scenario where the Soviets hadn‘t already broken through in the South. There was absolutely no way they could reasonably stop both pincers. Possibly even with those reinforcements that Paulus had needed the whole time.
I just watched the last 37 episodes in the last 3 days straight, what a treat, you sir are awesome, hail to thee
TIK -- You should be a lecturer at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. I love your detailed and sometimes alternative explanations on what did or what could have occurred. Really brilliant!
It is also easier to blame the dead guy or the guy in a gulag because they cannot defend themselves, and not many people will rush to Hitler's defence in my opinion. Further motivation for blaming Paulus would be that he would serve in the East German army, so publishing dates could also be taken into account. Accounts after his appointment would have that extra political motivation for lieing.
The Combat Wombat It is Paulus who commanded the Sixth Army and drove East with poorly defended flanks. He was in charge. Any competent commander would have recognized the danger. He chose instead to do what Hitler wanted. He was in command and thus has to bear responsibility for what ensued. Remember he was a NAZI supporter, part of the reason he got the job in the first place.
@@dennisweidner288 Yes, he is responsible, but should he bear all of the responsibility? Was Paulus responsible for anti tank gun distribution in Army Group South? Or for sending most of the reinforcements for 1942 to Army Group Centre? Or for Stalin's change in attitude from shouting to listening, and rushing counter attacks to preparing them? He did what his commanding officer General von Weichs ordered him to do, who received his orders from the Chief of Staff and Halder, who received their orders from Hitler. Any competent commander would also know how easily they can be replaced in the chain of command. Criticise Paulus for his mistakes and bad decisions and his alone.
@@thecombatwombat7652 Absolutely there were all kinds of factors that led to the disaster ar Stalingrad, many outside of Palus' control. But he was in command. He accepted that command. He was not forced to take command. He was an ardent NAZK. And a mjor planner of Brbarossa. As a result, he bears responsibility for setting the Ostrieg in motion. If Germany did not have the ability to win, he should have spoken up. A commander has a responsibility to his country and superiors, but also to his men. If he didn't think he could succeed, he should have spoken up. That is what Hadler did.
Hard day at work, and than this..gift from the sky.
Amazing job as usual, TIK
Amazing Stalingrad series TIK 👍🙂
Paulus could have escaped the encriclement if he had done his daily prayer in front of his picture with Lord Manstein. Amateur mistake if you ask me.
Leaving the joke aside, I am 15 mins into the video and it is great!
All hail to the Manstein!
I bet if Manstein was in charge of 6th army, he wouldn't even have been encircled. He could have coated his Panzers in Mansteininium, unbreakable steel armor.
@@fieldmarshalbaltimore1329 I guess we will never know. It is one of the biggest what-ifs of the war, up there with Steiner's counterattack at Berlin.
@@fieldmarshalbaltimore1329 This.
@@fieldmarshalbaltimore1329 if Manstein was in command. He would have withdrawn to Berlin. Counter attacks and struck right the Urals in 1 week with just one panzer and won the war.
the great point of such a brilliant video is to show, for the first time, how Germans failed by not having a strong mobile forse behind the Romenian lines. Despite the lack in anti-tank of the Romenian divisions, 2-3 motorized/panzer divisions might have stopped the Soviet advance and possibly destroy them. The irony is that those motorized/panzer divisions existed in that area before OKH sent them sightseeing in France (Leibstandarte) besides von Manstein XI Army transferred to Leningrad when it could have played a decisive role in Fall Blau...
And if those divisions were not in France the Allies would have invaded.
@@andrewblake2254 it was the panic after the Dieppe raid
OMG these maps, and commentary / questions (obviously from @TIK but also by other dudes above)!! What *happened* between November 19th and 22th is finally starting to become comprehensible to me
Thanks! Missed last week.
I've been waiting for this episode. Can't wait to see the encirclement complete. It's amazing how the Romanians have actually put up a stiff resistance to the best of their capability, I think the Germans wrongfully always portray their allies (in both world wars) as utterly incapable of military action and dragging them down, letting them go off the hook.
The Red Army has outplayed the Germans in November 1942, maybe even earlier since the Axis were unable to take Stalingrad quickly. I've been reminiscing on the other 36 episodes in this series to see what could the Germans have done to win this campaign and I'm coming to the conclusion that they simply attempted too much with too little force. Perhaps if they sent fewer forces down to the Caucasus and sent a few more Corps either along the Don or into Stalingrad they could have won, but then again it's not like the Soviets were absent from the Caucasus or that the Axis had a walk in the park there - advancing with less troops in the Caucasus perhaps would lead to the defeat of Army Group A and the exposure of Army Group B's flank. Also as you mentioned the Germans were already struggling to supply the men they had in Army Group B, so an additional 1 or 2 more corps would likely just make that situation worse.
What do you think is the winning strategy for Germany in this case? I'm starting to believe that this campaign is/was unwinnable, unless something unprobable happens (like the additional corps manages to break into Stalingrad before the supply situation deteriorates to a point where it's presence no longer an asset but a logistical liability)
At least most of the Romanians fought with courage, despite being undersupplied.
Besides, the soviets are the ones who took chunks of Romania before ww2: Basarabia & Bucovina.
Perfect eay to end a hard and tiring day. Thank you for this TIK.
Excellent analysis. Thank you.
So the overall analysis of Soviet / Russian performance is, many weeks of Stalemate and grinding attrition followed by pedal to the metal. Hey just like what is going to happen in Ukraine.
Germans at the start of Operation Uranus did get caught out by timings/weather/overconfidence/not believing Soviets had learned from mistakes.
Even if the Germans had managed to capture Stalingrad by mid/late Nov, how they were going to defend the long line over the winter, with frozen rivers acknowledged growing Soviet strength?
Timing - Germans/Axis had what little reserves they did have right at the front for 'final' battle to take Stalingrad. They kept thinking one more offensive would do it, & they could hold the Don/Volga river lines, despite their weakness. They did not take heed of recon showing big Soviet build up. Lack of fuel robbed them of the assets where they had been a lot better than the Soviets - recon & mobility. Note how many trucks/motorbikes captured due to lack of fuel/spares.
Weather - Bad weather helped the Soviets, let them get closer to Axis lines, move forward undetected & hindered Luftwaffe recon & support.
Overconfidence - Axis had always beaten off Soviet attacks in the past, especially when they had been dug in.
Improved Soviet Performance - They had learned a lot from previous mistakes, & finally planned & prepared both a plan, strength & capability of attacking forces to achieve aims.
The only way to avoid the Stalingrad pocket would have been for Hitler to acknowledge failure of Fall Blau by late Oct, & to carry out a planned withdrawal earlier to the Don/ Donets rivers line. This would at least allow Hitler a face saving propaganda victory of sorts for ground taken, claim they are ready for a 1943 offensive, & are still winning the war.
Everyone seems competent and generally good at their job when the army was advancing victoriously. Then it devolves into blame deflection and ass covering. Good work sir.
Another fantastically informative video.
The Germans has no HORSES, so no chance to flee.
Rather take the chancen and try by foot. Leave everything behind, even your rifle. When the soviets catch up its not gona help you anyway. Cut out the horse fat. 1kg / 2.2 pounds = 7000 calories. Take 3kg with you and your good for 15-20 days which is more then enough to reach the lines. With a white uniform you can easily hide in the snow. Just let yourself fall head first.
If your not warm enough cut out the horse skin and put it between your clothes and on your shoes and as gloves.
I think TIK is wrong, I don’t think the encirclement was inevitably permanent, although I agree that the National Socialist system made the situation nearly impossible. Here’s what I mean: if the German command structure had been less rigid, and allowed for more latitude and independent thought, things could have been done differently. For example, all those division commanders (in conjunction with their staffs) inside what would become the pocket could surely have come up with adequate plans to extricate their own forces from the front lines in a timely fashion and get their men moving south or west or southwest or all of the above (considering there were 20 divisions, they would have needed to take different routes). However, the German division commanders needed permission practically to wipe their own butts. Contrast this with the way defensive lines and even effective counter attacks were cobbled together at Kasserine pass or in the battle of the Bulge and you see the striking difference between the level of independence exercised by mid-level American commanders and their German counterparts. I believe firmly that there was adequate force available inside the Stalingrad pocket to have forced open the thinly held Red Army circumvalation lines during the early days of the encirclement. I understand about the logistical issues, and the question of whether you have an army left at the end of such a campaign or just a couple of hundred thousand half starved half frozen refugees, but still. The survival rate would surely have been higher that way than by doing what they eventually settled on. Moreover, it’s not as though such a breakout would have left the Soviet units through which they would have passed unaffected. In all likelihood, a properly supported (from the air) breakout would have shattered many Soviet divisions as well as German and left both sides practically incapable of large scale offensive operations for several weeks. Thus, Manstein and/or Weichs would have had time to reorganize the survivors of 6th Army prior to the resumption of the Russian offensive that winter.
Eh. Germans did have a LOT of units inside, but most of those units were occupied keeping in check other Soviet units. And if Soviets saw they were beggining to withdraw they can then strike at them. A Soviet breakthrough the northern front during an evacuation attempt would have been catastrophic. Proper rear guard units needed to be assigned. Front shortened etc. All of which takes time they did not have, nor did they apparently have enough ammo for more than days worth of fighting without airlifts. And right now I bet Luftwaffe should be getting concerned about security of their own airfields given that there is pretty much NOTHING to the southwest of Stalingrad to prevent some Soviet mobile unit from rolling into one of their other airfields. Like they did do in Romanian sector. Which makes me dubious of how much air support could they even provide for a breakout attempt in these couple of days. Not to mention that weather was unsuitable for airsupport.
KEY advantage Germans had was fire support from artilery units and airforce combined with tanks. They have little to no fuel in the pocket for tanks, Luftwaffe would probably need to fly fuel in to do any operations from inside the pocket and other airfields are in danger right now, and situation is probably not great for artilery given mention of ammo shortages.
And even more importantly, even though they could get some or lot of men out if they just started walking and abandoned most of their gear, that would pretty much evaporate that army as an effective fighting force. Meaning all those units it was keeping in check, and will continue to keep in check since they will be busy for months sieging them, would now be free to go wherever their logistics allow them given that right now there is nothing much stopping them from rushing to the Black Sea.
@@Blazo_Djurovic Chuikov's 10,000 survivors are going to hold 90,000 German troops inside Stalingrad? Please...
Supported from the air? There is blizzard... And for the troops on the ground, they would have to orientate themselves with compass... half of the army would have ended in middle of the soviet jaws, the other half would be swimming in icy Volga or Don...
There were not twenty routes out of Stalingrad. The conditions on the steppe was horrific at that time and it was difficult to stay alive let alone conduct military operations.
@@GeographyCzar You don't seem to grasp the concept of "encirclement". The 90 000 Germans aren't all in front of Chuikov, if they would, this would meant leaving ground to the soviet all around. Even if the Germans with only part of their troops pushed Chuikov to the river (which I doubt they could by this point: they have been trying now for month in much more favourable conditions, and now suddenly they would succeed while being encircled?), what then? They would found an empty city, still well encircled, and in fact ease the work for the red army, since all this can only be accomplished by deploying more precious resources on offensive while they barely hold in defensive... The fact is, Chuikov don't need to hold Stalingrad by then, he can evacuate on the other bank, and wait the Germans to starve...
Thanks again for these.
Tik, you should certainly do a few articles on Stalingrad. Heck, you could even complete a Ph.D. on the topic. You certainly have the facts in there but also proper argumentation. This is just brilliant!