Thom Solves a Mystery
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2023
- Video takes a look at a comment by Thom Pollard regarding the oxygen bottle found by the 1999 team. The oxygen bottle was used by either Mallory or Irvine in their 1924 climb of Mount Everest, but details about exactly where it was found have never been forthcoming.
In his comment, Thom discusses the possibility the bottle was indeed moved prior to being "found."
In 2017, Thom Pollard gave some fairly pointed criticism of the 1999 team which can be found here: • Video
You can find the comment I discuss in this video: • My Life-Changing Exper...
Response to Jake Norton, Part 1: • Response to Jake Norto...
Part 2 is not out yet.
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www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest...
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest...
www.jochenhemmleb.com/english...
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If there is one thing I've learnt from all these excellent videos, it is to never buy a used car from a mountaineering climber...
Especially Conrad Anker
If I ever write a book about the worst that Everest has brought out in humanity, I think it will be entitled “Small Minds on Low Oxygen”.
As a kid I read everything I could find about the early Everest expeditions. I thought of the early expeditioners as somehow a cut above us climbers now.
I've spent decades mountaineering, and guiding. I've been on many expeditions, some high altitude. Spent a lot of time in Nepal, though never on Everest.
I really appreciate your candor. As I am older now, I understand the dynamics of expeditions, and the clash and interaction of strong egos.
Clearly it was no different back then. And now, there is a lot of money, and a lot of reputations, riding on what happened up there, back then.
I'm convinced that we'll never know the truth, unless Irvine's body is found, with summit rocks in his pocket. And probably not then.
Really appreciate your well-rounded and thoughtful approach to Mallory and Irvine.
I'm probably naive in my romantic view of mountaineering and mountaineers but the skullduggery of the 1999 team never fails to bewilder me.
It's a media beat up. Have you read Ghosts of Everest. Don't believe the hype. Read widely
They’re all about money, marketing, and authority. Thom himself is a jackass.
For such a “professional” climbing and searching team, doing what seems like an attempt at archeology, they sure left us a nice little cluster F@#k. Very disappointing 1999!
You do know what altitude does to human physiology???? Your expectations are unrealistic. Pull yer head in mate
@@1unsung971I think most f us with an interest in this subject have a pretty good idea of the affects of altitude on physiology……….although it clearly doesn’t have the same negative effects as $ signs!
@@1unsung971the 99 team knew what altitude would do to their search efforts as well...quit making excuses for biased/garbage archeological work.
They felt the expedition was important enough to undertake, but somehow did not think that they should thoroughly document everything
That would be the remit of The Royal Society
I think all the armchair commentators are underestimating the difficulty of doing things at that altitude. It's not like working at a sea level flat archeological site.
These guys are all about grifting and self-promotion. When I pointed out to Thom once the grift of one of his buds he went ballistic and said: you’re damn right it’s about sled-promotion and find raising! For them, this is money … any true investigation is secondary. In fact, they’d never let the facts get in the way of a grift which is why they’ll flip flop on any issue if it’s in their interest at the time.
@@DavidFindlayQLDthe narcissism of accusing others of being “armchair”…. I’ve summited over 200 peaks in the Canadian Rockies, 50 or so in the rest of the world and been over 8000m twice. You’re gasping away doing a 2km walk about Mount Beerwah, at just about sea level. Maybe save the obnoxious vague smears about everyone else until you at least see a real mountain.
@@datacipher which is why you don’t see me criticising people’s actions at super high altitudes. Think you could do better than others did up there, go do it.
I have followed the Everest story since reading "Fearless on Everest" by Julie Summers about the life of Sandy Irvine-I have visited and filmed in his house with Julie (I pass it every Monday) and this started me on a treasure hunt which ultimately led to filming Julies recently discovered archives of Sandy and finding his personal photo album from the 20's and also filming with 3 people who met him just before the Everest expedition along with 2 interviews with Captain Noels daughter Sandra who relates the story of the 2 miniature cine cameras John Noel took to Everest and the fact that Sandy Irvine had one of these up on the North Col just before his ascent with Mallory(as noted in his diaries).
All those that met Sandy are now sadly deceased and the unseen interviews may be made available on request.
interest rekindled as the Centenary approaches I see that the oxygen bottle found high on Everest in 1999 in your picture Michael matches one in a cabinet filmed by Jamie Mcguinness on a tour of the "Secret" Tibetan museum where some say Sandy body or artifacts were taken.
Want to get your detective skills on this?
Appreciate your diligent research on the subject as a whole. Seems clear to me that they took the Norton route, were seen on the 3rd step, summitted and died on the way back. The mystery is why so many are obsessed with the 2nd step question - a complete red herring. Oh - and where Irvine is, of course!
Everything about the '99 expedition is fu@#$ up. Good thing T Pollard came forward with this info. What I still can't grasp is why all the misinformation and outright lies on this matter. Who can benefit? The Chinese? The British climbing establishment? I'm really pissed that history and facts get all muddled up to serve someone's purpose, and I'm very grateful to M Tracy to keep on probing and asking the questions everyone is afraid to ask.
Look forward to seeing your other videos on this matter, as you always do thorough research and not just hearsay.
I love your research! Keep it up and keep posting!
There was definitely funny business going on during that 1999 expedition
Be specific
On page's 258-259 in The Fight For Everest , quote " But Finch is careful to say that a necessary part of this programme for the continuous use of oxygen would be the carrying up of supplies of oxygen , to a height about 1000 feet above that at which he would propose pitching the highest camp "
So if you carry three cylinders up from camp , using one of them to do it , you can cache two cylinders for the next day .
The next day you use the remaining oxygen from the cylinder that you used yesterday , which is now only half full , drop that cylinder where you left the others yesterday and continue with two full cylinders .
This could explain where John Noel got the impression that Mallory moved the camp higher.
John Noel could only have got this idea from the porters seeing Mallory and Irvine carrying loads uphill from camp 6.
I thought this was a promising theory. On page 284 of The Maverick Mountaineer (a Finch biography) it quotes a letter Mallory sent Ruth as Finch and Bruce were making their attempt. “I think they will certainly break our record - they have had very good weather - but I don’t expect them to have reached the top at the first attempt. All depends on whether they succeed in dumping cylinders ahead of them. I shan’t feel in the least jealous of any success they may have. The whole venture of getting up with oxygen is so different from ours that the two hardly enter into competition.” So Mallory believed the success of Finch’s attempt hinged on caching oxygen bottles ahead of the summit climbers. Additionally, on Jochen Hemmleb’s website he lists the oxygen bottle’s altitude being established at between 27,790-27,806 ft.
Obviously would be nice if it was clear if one or two bottles were found, if a photo could verify there location and if it was known if they still contained oxygen when they were discovered.
You have such an incredible accumulation of Everest knowledge man, always a joy to see a new video from you pop up in the feed. This is fascinating info on the bottle, but I still find it hard to get my head around the proposition that there was an actual conspiracy to misrepresent the bottle’s location. What could be gained from that?
Yes, it is difficult to believe. I did not believe it for years. However, the issue could relate to oxygen bottle caching, which there has been "deliberate incompetence" about. In the RGS archives, there is an extensive instruction guide from the manufacturer about oxygen bottle caching. Bottle caching is routinely used by climbers including Hillary and Conrad Anker and Dave Hahn themselves in 1999.
However, the official narrative has always been that they were not engaged in bottle caching. The bottle location in where Hahn reported it is only consisted with bottle caching. Bottle caching creating increases the chance of a summit as it dramatically decreases the weight carried. That every one of these "researches" went to the RGS and missed the huge document right in the middle of the folder about the oxygen equipment indicates there might be some desire not to talk about oxygen bottle caching or any evidence that suggests Mallory and Irvine did so.
Oxygen bottle caching and summit rocks are two topics that are blatantly obvious to outside observers but absolutely will not be talked about by any of the main stream published accounts.
But, I'll cover more about oxygen bottle caching in upcoming videos and it will be more apparent how much it increased their chance of making the summit and it explains why they needed to descend the same route the ascended even though a lower descent would make more sense if they were not caching.
This information is not hard to find. You just need to read widely. Into The Silence by Wade Davis is a good deep dive into the Mallory and Irvine story. The most comprehensive single book thus far and a ripping yarn. Enjoy.
@@1unsung971 And if you watch the "Everything Wrong" video, it will tell you various problems with the Into the Silence account as it largely follows Conrad Anker's account -- the cooker rolling down from Camp 6 being the largest mistake that is easily debunked. So, there is "information" easily available. But not all of it is correct.
I have watched the Everything Wrong video. I remain unconvinced by your details. Show us more evidence. @@michaeltracy2356
I dont know about anyone else,But i have been unable to watch any 'documentaries' about Everest and Mallory from History Channel,Nat Geo..in fact i cant bear to watch anything of 'History' on tv..books either..after going to youtube channels like this one...Theres just too much information thats lacking for what once were good tv.
Or so i thought was good info on tv documentaries in past decades.
Nope...Its all hocus-pocus narratives aimed at not actually trying to solve anything.
I believe that Mallory and Irvine did summit and lost their footing somehow on the way back down from the summit.
I welcome facts that counter my opinion that can dismantle my opinion without rhetoric or shady inferences etc...i really like this channel..i like hearing from Mike Tracey and his prodding and poking around at seemingly misled or dishonest stories about Mallory&Irvine and getting some sunlight on those stories
I just hate when we are robbed of the possibility to know the truth by men with interests, whether chinese or else. 😐
Was it definitely used by Mallory or Irvine on that fatal last attempt or could some other person on the expedition on a previous attempt have left it there?
It was definitely used by Mallory or Irvine. The bottles used in other expeditions were different sizes and no one got close to that location with oxygen bottles. The cylinder has a stamped number on it #9 -- and Mallory wrote down that was one of the bottles on his list of cylinders with their pressures.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks Michael really appreciate your response.
Was the bottle empty, or was it full? That would certainly provide some clues about the Irving/Mallory climb.
Yes, it would... And they screwed that one up as well...czcams.com/video/pM7KqTII2HY/video.html
Not necessarily, I saw a program on Mallory and Irvine where they had a letter or whatever from Mallory where he (or perhaps someone else on the 1924 expedition) complained about how many of the oxygen bottles turned up empty and how they also broke very easily, it was literally said that just touching them could cause them to break on some occasions, so if the bottle that was found up there was empty that still doesn't prove anything because it well could have broken and everything leaked out, once they discovered that they likely would have discarded it instead of lugging an empty bottle, it's also to my understanding that one of the reasons Mallory wanted Irvine with him who was an inexperienced climber was because he was good at fixing things and Mallory wanted him around to deal with broken O² equipment, that was first generation oxygen equipment, it wasn't like stuff nowadays, it was untested at those altitudes and broke like crazy.
@@dukecraig2402 I do whole video on the oxygen issue -- A Bloody Load. Mallory wasn't an idiot. He knew most of the bottle were bad -- as did Hillary. And yet, they both seem to have come up with a solution to the problem -- one you have missed. Watch the video and it will tell you how they both figured out what you could not.
@@michaeltracy2356
No that's ok, now that I've watched some of you videos it sees like you're more interested in attacking people than talking about whether or not Mallory and Irving made it to the summit, and now you've thrown shade my way with your little "they figured out what you cannot" crack, I've had enough abrasive people in my life, no thank you.
The truth is easy to remember, there is only one version. It is the lies you need to keep track of.
The 1999 expedition should have had hard fast rules about what to do in case of an artifact discovery. The lack of discipline is revolting.
It seems important to me (not a climber)whether the bottle had oxygen in it or not. Could you explain the likelihood of it being discarded ascending vs descending? Or if it was simply cached and never used?
Since this analysis is retrograde, the more fixed points we have, the fewer the possibilities that need to be considered.
The 1999 team didn't check whether there was oxygen, or how much. Later it was reported there was oxygen by Jake Norton.... Then his handlers told him to change what he said... czcams.com/video/pM7KqTII2HY/video.html
In any of those locations it was supposedly found, it does not make any sense that the bottle would be empty. Nor would they cache a full bottle. You use a bottle and cache a 1/2 bottle. I'll cover all this in upcoming videos,
But, it will greatly help you ability to think through this if you stop looking at is as a mystery and look at it as a cover up. People change things, they lie, they make stuff up, the report things incorrectly, they pretend they don't know things, they repeat the same false information over and over long after it Is known to be false. If you start to look at it from that angle, you will see there is little to no mystery about what happened in 1924. The mystery is why there is such an effort to make it seem like there is.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thank you. I always look forward to your work. It’s like opening my front door and finding a tiny nugget of gold.
I don't really have a sense of what snow coverage at that altitude really looks like. Just for clarification of the bottle being potentially covered on certain years. Could that not have explained why earlier expeditions hadn't found it in the alleged location?
The photos from 1933 do not show a large amount of snow. They certainly were able to find the ice axe and it was not buried under the snow.
What we know is that 1933, 1960, and 1975 didn't see the bottle. Simonson claims to have seen bottles in 1991 and 8 years later remembers exactly where they were such that Tap Richards can find them in 3 minutes of searching.
While there are innocent explanations for all of this, none of these innocent explanations have been provided. Tap Richards reports finding the bottle someplace completely different from where Jake Norton reports it was found. And there is still the problem that Dave Hahn saw a sherpa moving the bottle.
As the 1933, 1960 and 1975 teams did not climb up the exit cracks and Simonson likely did in 1991 as that is the "modern route", the most probable explanation for the known facts are that the bottle(s) were near the exit cracks between 1924 and 1999. Dave Hahn saw the bottle(s) being moved in 1999 to where they were later found. This explains why so little information about the actual find is publicly available.
We know exactly what the snow cover was on May 17, 1999, and it was moderate. Thus, snow coverage would likely not be an explanation for why everyone else missed the bottle(s).
@@michaeltracy2356 Wow thanks for both a quick and thorough response. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was questioning all of your points I was just curious on how snow accumulates that high on the mountain.
I understand how snow builds and clears at low elevation. Any difference in wind, dryness and density of air compared 1000 ft range, my elevation?
It may be seem minor but as you have been up there I thought why not ask. My fear of asking dumb questions can't overcome my curiosity.
TY 🙏🙏. Posted again as original comment has disappeared..
The 1999 team took both a Warren Commission and an incompetent approach with them; some things can be forgiven but other things are unforgivable.
and now you know the rest of the story..
👍👍👍👍👍
I am absolutely certain that, if I make it to Heaven ...on the second day there I will be asking Jesus, assuming Mallory is busy that day, if mallory and Irving made it to the summit of Everest. Thanks Michael!
What have you been smoking????
Crank
Allegedly Mallory and Irvine threw themselves off Everest rather than listen to that voice droning on about them.