Yup, look up the guy who just met his mother for the first time. So he wanted to find his father. So as he went looking, thing got weird & took a left turn. Somehow IDK how he started it or found something about his father. So the son goes to the place that has a partial of the ZODIAC'S DNA & took the son's DNA. The Doctor said that he & the cop that was there said that they could rule out his father as the zodiac. So the son ends up writing a books about it and THE WASHINGTON POST SOMEHOW CRACK THE CODE AND IT TURNED OUT THE FATHER WAS THE ZODIAC. EARL VAN BEST JR. LOOK IT UP.
There is a letter sent to Melvin Beli which has entirely different handwriting. But then in the "Buttons" letter, we see that same handwriting suddenly shift after a line or two into his usual handwriting. So there is definitely an indication that he either always was hiding his true handwriting, which was not concealed for some reason in the Melvin letter, or he tried to change his handwriting for the Melvin letter and then gave up doing so. I think the handwriting as we know it is very likely very close to his true handwriting.
I wonder how common it is for people who are ambidextrous to separate word fragments when writing in their weak hand. Even if this alone doesn’t specifically implicate Leigh, it could still confirm to investigators that the Zodiac was likely ambidextrous...
I'm bored with conspiratorial spins on this case. It was a single person (compare the physical descriptions of surviving victims & Presidio Heights eyewitnesses); and it's a person who was never identified.
Charlie Gauger, It was all getting very tired until I heard about Ross Sullivan. Ross Sullivan is either the most unlucky innocent suspect ever or it's him. Everything seems to add up.
Cenk Zappa, Wow, now I'm really conflicted. Sullivan Looks more like the Zodiac picture from after the Stine killing than Kane. But Sullivan was heavy set and Kane was not. Omg, I wish they'd get a solid DNA hit! AAAAA!! It's driving me mad! Some people are saying this is Lawrence Kane and some people are saying this is EV Best www.earnthenecklace.com/lawrence-kane-wiki-zodiac-killer/ Who is this??!?!
Tom, I know what you're saying! It's baffling though because Lawrence Kane seems to have so many connections with the Zodiac as well! www.zodiacciphers.com/lawrence-kane.html I tend to learn toward Sullivan as well.
Has anyone ever taken the extra lor missing letters to see what they may spell out, or if they're a part of the cypher? Is it possible that ALA wrote for the zodiac and maybe that's why he cannot be discounted as being involved?
Yes there are literally millions of sentences you can make out of those 18 letters. They are much more likely to be extras to pad out the final section of the cipher so it was the same as the other two. Otherwise you could immediately tell which was the last section.
My POI has his middle name clearly visible in the Halloween card. His other names can be cryptically derived. Please see my new Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption that seems to link 'Z' to the CJBates murder and Stine murder. Please click on the abstract humanoid Icon to see!
Question .... why do so many ' experts ' on this case ignore Allen ? I know that they have never found physical evidence of him at the crime scenes ( not a big deal in my opinion) but Cecelia shepard who got the best view of him described a heavy 6' man, he was pointed out by two surviving victims in a photo ID too. I have a list drawn up of 30 ( THIRTY) pieces of strong circumstantial against him. Not counting the evidence of his friend, who, if telling the truth , has shut the door on this case. And this evidence just nails it down for me, that writing is very similar to the zodiaks and shares a very uncommon trait.
@@Bigwave2003 , Correct, since it was written in a different pen, in a differnet year then of course it won't be the same. Thats like looking at two peoples fingerprints and telling one of them that they don't have a hand , because the fingerprint wasn't ' the same'.
All those experts give quite long and valid explanations. But here in short: All the suspects have at least one thing in common : they are nut cases and might have a resemblance. Allen was a possible sex offender. Other than that nothing else in common ( a part from maybe wearing a Zodiac watch (as did most of the Marine Corps at the time). Another suspect was Ed Edwards and he was ruled out despite his presence in the area and also having in common the serial killer attribute (which he is in prison for). The Golden State killer Di Angelo there is also a lot in common. (imho the best match except for now being quiet as opposed to bragging...but he used to be different) Anyway, then Larry Kane has been described as “the best Zodiac suspect” by accusers who claim that he was identified by nine eyewitnesses, including the sisters of a Zodiac victim, a police officer who saw the Zodiac, a surviving victim, two witnesses at Lake Berryessa during the Zodiac attack, a man who witnessed the abduction of his girlfriend in Nevada, a police officer who may have seen the abductor, and a possible Zodiac victim..... Sooo the list goes on...
I am naturally left handed and was encouraged to write right handed as a small child. I too have spacing in my words when wirting with my weaker right hand. And as the man says, it is down to flow. With my left, my writing naturally flows as I just know precisely how a word will be written before I have written it. With my right hand, I have to slow down a tad and keep guessing where my next letter will be placed, causing gaps in words. Weird thing is, I did not realise I do this until I saw this video.
I believe this is a bonus featurette on the bonus material disc from the 2-disc bluray special edition of the movie but anyway thanks for made this available in CZcams ...
i've been watch ing thees docs all over youtube. a person with a blank background talking. and can't find all of them in the same doc. are these differe nt and separate documentaries or no one uploaded full yet?
The thing that most stands out to me in the zodiac letters is the authors tendency to move the location of 1st word in each line increasingly to the right. It's ubiquitous across the letters. I also noticed that this was present in the writing on the envelope sent to Tom Voight by Don Cheney. The letter within this envelope was written on squared paper, and therefore, this tendency was not in evidence.
Hi All. Looking for a bit of help in answering something that's bugging me, please: years ago I read Graysmiths book, the yellow Zodiac version. One thing (a suspect) that really stood out to me in it was a man from the other side of the country, New York. The man, from what I remember, was alleged to have travelled from New York to the west coast, SF, every time there was a Zodiac killing. I don't have the yellow book anymore - anyone know the suspect I am talking about, what's his name please? Thanks, Spence.
Of course, it could be a 'red herring' itself, but this letters appear to be handwriting which is quite 'child like' - the relative scruffiness of the letters, the lack of uniformity in size, and distance separating both words, letters, and lines. There's a certain 'immaturity' in the taunting of law enforcement, too. ALA taunted the PD, but was disproved on various counts. But that does not mean that the 'real' ZK could air similar personality traits - ALA was a "unusual" to say the least, and a S/K could scarcely be more unusual! Some people wonder if the ZK got someone else to write the letters, too. Which is an interesting idea.
@@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt The Zodiac and his partner neither one played piano, although their GM would have tried to teach them. It was their sisters' and mothers' who played.... well.
ALA would have to be the unluckiest man in the world to have nothing to do with Zodiac's crimes. Too much circumstantial evidence is why. Fingerprint and DNA analysis can give "wrong" results. His voice apparently didn't match though, so he could indeed be the unluckiest man in the world.
And if it was a small group behind with only one killer? ... The others could have done the phone calls and even the cyphers with ALA executing the killings ... czcams.com/video/VCNun1vcXpE/video.html
Perhaps the separation of suffixes and prefixes from the root word is common among people with strong left and weak right hands. I know someone who can write with both, would have been born around 1950, school system probably did the same thing to him, which means he probably mains with his left too.
The Zodiac's mother was the head of the secretarial pool at Standard Oil for 40 years. He knew how to spell and never got away with incorrect grammar around his mother.
@Troy Grabenstatter He was not autistic. He was the Chief Engineer of the boiler room at SFSU. He was highly intelligent and his cousin, an excop, helped him out in more ways than one. It is actually his cousin's image on the SFPD Zodiac Poster. He stepped in to create confusion. Gave the piece of Stine's shirt to the main Zodiac, who wrote letters and claimed to have killed Stine, yet it was his excop cousin who killed Stine, took the piece of shirt, gave it to the main Zodiac who wrote in claiming credit. That created confusion by having cops search for a man who looked like the guy on SFPD poster, but whose handwriting would not have matched. Very clever and very smart. Not at all autistic. He actually went on to create a VERY profitable business with other like-minded folks.
We have samples of Arthur Leigh Allen's right hand, and it looks exactly like you'd expect someone to write in the opposite hand. The whole ambidextrous thing is BS.
You are not talking about the ones he did for the police right? As he could have purposely scribbled.. however his DNA doesn't match and his palm prints dont match either.
@@dmvconartists2542 the dna was weak. He was never "ruled out" for all we know he probably was zodiac and the police was right all along. I mean when are they ever wrong, the answer is, it's very slim. Dna can only match if the dna is good enough for a sample.
Somehow the misspellings seem genuine to me; even if they are excessive. In some notes he scratches out lots of words; was that deliberate too? I think that ALA could not spell when using his non-dominant hand. I bet there is a neurological explanation for this.
I believe it's brain based but having worked with a lot of guys who are functionally illiterate, they are consistent. If they make verbal or name mistakes or transpose words or phrases, their brain does it the same time every time, the don't very. Especially as this guy points out, on words that are used often.
Wow..there was so much circumstantial evidence and you just cant be sure who did it, but this video really guaranteed it in my mind. It was Arthur Leigh Allen. Hands down.
Yes I think that the corpus of Zodiac correspondence when composited together pretty much reveals everything. Please click on the abstract round humanoid icon to see a short video on my Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption. Conventional coding methodology unconventionally applied. Thanks.
See my V.recently posted Caesar shift Fields created by the Berryessa VW car door cryptogram, by the Dripping Pen Card, by the Sierra 'Peek through the Pines' card & the Death machine' that generated them. A Ted K link . The Zodiac's cross symbol points to the letter elements that are to be Caesar shifted as complete fields for adjacent letter Steganography. LoFi vids not blogs. Solves not long lists of Bogeymen. Click on the generic 'R' symbol for my channel. Thanks, Rick
The problem is you can rearrange those letters into millions of plausible sentences. Its most likely he did it to make the three sections of the cipher the same length so you couldn't identify which was the final part.
The physical description of those who survived a attack, or witnessed a shooting are proven to be unreliable at best. Cops will use partial descriptions from 3 or more living victims for one sketch? The two groups of people are under more stress, in pain, shock, fear, the list is long! Courts around the globe won't use this type of identification for this reason
See my Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption that shows a possible 3 character nickname for the Zodiac at the end of the transcript. Conventional coding methodology unconventionally applied! The strange word structure suggested to me a coded message- I was proved right! Please click on the abstract round humanoid icon to see! Thanks.
Allen bought a Most Dangerous game poster cuz he loved the movie so much and took marshalls writing stylistically for his zodiac letters. He then reproduced the letters using a template with whatever copy machine he had in hsi moms basement - hence why nothing ever matched.
how do you know this? he appeared to be looking for attention which was lacking in his own childhood. he was just a narcissistic psychopath. nothing to do with anger he wants notoriety. it's his way of becoming famous.
Zodiac planned everything he was not enhusiastic ... even when he called the police he was reading from a script and so forth his letters to the media were carefully planned even his handwriting looks technical like from a blueprint ... i think that he has military background
Or the spelling and writing errors could be the result of a neurological problem. I have a pretty good idea heavy drinking can induce these issues and drug use might do so also. Maybe certain prescription drugs would too. You cannot assume that the person who wrote the letters was not afflicted in some way. Or assume that he was either. This was a situation which called for some expert opinion. I am not sure any was ever applied to issue of what the letters actually showed about the person who wrote them. But I do think, if they were contrived to have the errors and idiosyncrasies they exhibited, then whoever wrote them was a pretty disciplined worker.
@@counterculture10 I reviewed the presentation again. I have my doubts the Zodiac was a character created by someone with a different type of personality. What that means is that he was actually like that and that the letters largely represented how wrote and expressed himself though I think there was some deliberate effort to create some pungency and some arrogance in tone. Going off into another case, I thought there was some parallel between the ransom note in the Jonbenet Ramsey case in the 1990s and the Zodiac letters. There was in both a certain pungency of tone and a certain attitude. What this led me to conclude though was only that the Jonbenet Ramsey ransom note was written by someone at least in their late 20s, not a by some kid offender. Some people have said that the Ramsey note probably was written by a woman. I don't react to it that way. To me it seems male in its tone, but it could have been written by a woman. We just don't know.
fascinating stuff you have to wonder why he did that as there are simpler ways to hide writing, people who do stuff like this are completely normal on the outside. would not surprise me if he was a school teacher. teaching children. elementary school teacher. a normal guy with a secret. the guy seeks power... teacher, security guard, police officer, military sergeant, etc.
The writer seemed to be using a lot of stereotypically old-fashioned British constructions. Off the top of my head, he kept using "i shall" instead of "I will." There were also a lot of old-fashioned adverbs used in place of "very," e.g. i was awfully sorry to see that..... or ......it was considerably shocking to me to see that etc. Then again, a lot of the vocabulary was undoubtedly North American. e.g. no British person would ever use the word "slacks" to mean trousers.
I do not think the ciphers are any help in solving the case. I also have a learning disability where I drop letters while writing and make spelling mistakes and do not notice them until i look back at my writing later.
Jack the Ripper has been identified. He was American serial killer H.H. Holmes who was overseas at the time attempting to run the same medical skeleton scam he was running in America. He has been pinned there at the right time with documentation, his diary, and handwriting analysis.
Ken D. Webber , Pure speculation , Every so often some expert or other comes up with yet another suspect , none have been proven or even generally accepted without doubt .
I believe zodiac was largely aware of and influenced by jack the ripper. Jack the ripper sent letters to police and he often misspelt words also. Zodiac must have been well read because in those days that kind of info was only available in libraries and likely not taught in schools.
The Z13 has thirteen letters/symbols and begins and ends with the following letters... AENNAM This anagrams into "AN AMEN" which is fitting for the religio-speak found within the various correspondence. This is the word "NAME" (what the clue is about) with the letters "A" and "N" on either side. When you take those two letters and line them up under the centered letters "K" and "M" and then add the letter values by columns then the values are (12 and 27). These are the letters for "LA" and I presume to hint at "Los Angeles". That area was a hotbed of activity and close to the 1963 and 1966 attacks. Later, Manson and his group would start actively committing crimes at about the same time as "Z" in San Francisco. Could there be a larger group involved? Or maybe some mutual connections due to belief system and correspondence? The reason for the above postulation is that the Manson group was alleged to have killed upwards of thirty-five or more people just like the San Francisco "Z" case and that many were unknown and not prosecuted. Any unsolved crimes are very often linked to later or even concurrent people due to similarities in MO or other areas.
I have already decyphered the name generator and key and used it quite successfully throughout and with other solves and diagrams. Thanks for the input, though.
I’m ambidextrous as well, right hand dominant, but when I write with my left hand I purposely have letters within words close together. This isn’t because I think exactly that way, not necessarily; I just find it more aesthetically pleasing altogether. What if the Zodiac killer found that this kind of writing, this kind of broken syllabic writing, was characteristic of children from a certain time where teachers ordered them to write with their weak hand? And/or, what if it - this broken syllabic writing - was aesthetically pleasing to him/her?
Allen's handwriting was dramatically different from that of the Zodiac. At 9:41, note how Zodiac's writing slants to the right, while Allen's is more vertical. Zodiac's writing tended to be level with a baseline, while Allen's tended to slant up at the end of many words. In addition, almost every letter formation differs between the two writers. Note the lower case "d" for example: dramatically slanted to the right and close-looped by Zodiac, but vertical and often with an open loop by Allen. Aside from the fact that they both wrote in ink, there's not much similarity!
Tbh, I know absolutely nothing about this suspect, but I did notice even with the focus on printed letters there is a very clear felon’s claw in the sample handwriting shown around 10:00ish.
Isn't there a mailbox / postcode on any of the letters that were sent from whoever sent the letters , to show where they came from / posted from , IE . from which State of the US . or even from a foreign country . Perhaps the " Zodiac Killer " wasn't even American , and he may have been an active serviceman from another country ?!!!!!! ...... This is just a random theory of mine .
With all due respect this sounds like stilted speech and that it's unintentional. I have ASD and schizoid PD and was told that I have very, very distinctive stilted speech. If I'm not keeping tabs to revisit what I write and edit out typos, my instinctive path is to spell all things phonetically. This leads me to misplacing 'right' with 'write,' for example. Sometimes I add extra e's to the ends of things or will double up on an ending vowel like the Zodiac did for 'doo,' because I am writing out while my mind loops the phonetics faster than I can write. I will make conjoined words of things like 'bandroom' or split conjoined words into two like 'bath room,' or instead I will hyphenate a conjoined word like 'teen-age.' These things are at random and subconscious to me; the way I write or spell something can change quickly between the next time I do it if I'm not proofreading. I can see the Zodiac is doing that too. If I'm remembering correctly on the people he telephoned to announce the Lake Berryessa murders, the Zodiac is said to very monotone and have a calculated cadence. Once even trailing off into a failed sing-song intonation for "goodbye." All this leads me to believe that the Zodiac wasn't intentionally misspelling; just not going back and correcting what was already there. He is definitely of higher than average intelligence, and might have had some sort of condition that led to this speech pattern. It would also make sense with his knack for cryptography. All this being said, if he did have something like SzPD that is not the reason he became a serial killer. Schizoid, schizotypal, schizophrenia, psychosis, etc. do not make people violent on their own. But if he did have SzPD, I can see that being why it's so hard to catch him: In daily life he would be very reclusive and potentially coworkers would overlook him as the quiet guy that will pleasantly say good morning back but only if approached to. And he has a thick internal fantasy world like his enjoyment of cryptography, the Mikado, and bravado he displays in his communications.
Andunus Dick at least two! ... My personal theory is that they were a group of people with the same "interests" ... At least one active killer ... See how some pedophiles work ... Some pedophiles work in groups, sharing their victims or experiences ... Even some produce materials like photographs to be used in other places ... So this could have happened with this case ...
Bottom line they dont know who the Zodiac killer was I remember Sept 27th 1969 my family was at lake berryessa and it was my dads birthday I was not there but I remember the panic and fear The Zodiac created, not to mention the poor people lives he took. They will never know who the real killer was. It's obvious he was too smart for everyone.
Yeah you can tell the Zodiac killer was trying to hide his writing language, the letter is nice and neat in some parts and in other parts messy and scribbled, most likely using two different hands when writing the letters.
I have been thinking that since he called him self the zodiac there were two persons involved in this case one wrote the letters and the other did the murders so I assume the two can call them selves Gemini killers since there were two
The zodiac got the name from a hippie who was into astrology. He noticed how humans were so superstitious and could be fooled easily. So he took the name The Zodiac.
Very unlikely and illogical to think there were two people. There is no evidence of that and the killer had stine's shirt and sent it with two letters. There is also evidence never released to the public which many suspect is Paul Stine's drivers license which the Zodiac is also believed to have sent with another letter.
The content and descriptive form are sometimes altered but only by someone with intelligence. Style in writing is unique and the longer a letter or correspondence, the easier it is to decipher the author.
I think,,,, pretty many know Who knows WHO's war hes was hire,, and the code is not code Its messeges,,,, as when killed,,, the suffering,,,, is us whos left,
Similarities plus all the other circumstantial evidence, hmmm very interest ing. We shall see, DNA test ing being conduc ted right now. Tick tock, tick tock
He was an engineering student. He misspelled words because he was reading the journals of Lewis and Clark at the time, and Lewis misspelled the same words. He also had dyslexia, and at times just spelled however he felt they should be spelled, because "low lifes don't deserve" him to make the effort to follow spelling rules.
Id like to point out you're all a bunch of liars in this comment section. Arthur Leigh Allen to this day is still #1 suspect. You're not professional detectives to say otherwise😂
Start watching at 7:00.
That story about the mother and child was depressing.
Agreed, it was a real stab in the feels.
No mother... MONSTER...
a tip: watch series on flixzone. Me and my gf have been using them for watching lots of of movies during the lockdown.
@Omari Khari Yup, have been using flixzone} for months myself :)
The Zodiac murdered 5 people and got away clean. Arthur Leigh Allen got caught with his pants down in a children's playground, yeah a great match.
That fucker wanted people to think he was the Zodiac if anything that is where half the suspicion seems to come from
Allen was not the zodiac 👎👎
He wasn't the zodiac..we all know that now!
Yup, look up the guy who just met his mother for the first time. So he wanted to find his father. So as he went looking, thing got weird & took a left turn. Somehow IDK how he started it or found something about his father. So the son goes to the place that has a partial of the ZODIAC'S DNA & took the son's DNA. The Doctor said that he & the cop that was there said that they could rule out his father as the zodiac.
So the son ends up writing a books about it and THE WASHINGTON POST SOMEHOW CRACK THE CODE AND IT TURNED OUT THE FATHER WAS THE ZODIAC.
EARL VAN BEST JR.
LOOK IT UP.
Plus look up the unknown letter sent to Albany New York a few years from his last writing.
That letter spacing thing is very interesting.
Yep
I wonder if cryptographers account for this, and his (maybe) intentional spelling errors when trying to figure out his ciphers.
I know exactly what you mean. I totally agree with you.
n the dots
@@nancyrode9781 joi
Wow. Thanks for that. So clear and intelligent. No supposition. Well explained. Good stuff
Thanks, no problem.
I could live a thousand years without a hearing a sadder story then the mother and daughter.
Very helpful documentary. You can easily spot very odd writing habits that Zodiac has.
Yes, and his profile picture was very unsettling too.
Now I just feel terribly saddened; that little girl murder is so horrible, the poor little soul with no one to love and protect her.
Yes, very sad. How could a mother do that? It defies understanding. I tried to look up the case but couldn't get the last name he stated.
Well I'm all broken up about that mans rights
- harry Callaghan
...and lefts
The sight words and misspellings are the code. But I ain’t screwing wit dis dude (zodiac) unless I got an M16 and clear line of sight.
There is a letter sent to Melvin Beli which has entirely different handwriting. But then in the "Buttons" letter, we see that same handwriting suddenly shift after a line or two into his usual handwriting. So there is definitely an indication that he either always was hiding his true handwriting, which was not concealed for some reason in the Melvin letter, or he tried to change his handwriting for the Melvin letter and then gave up doing so. I think the handwriting as we know it is very likely very close to his true handwriting.
Maybe you should have checked Don Cheney's handwriting too.
Can the music , its not needed.
Is there a cypher within the misspellings and/or word sep arations?
I wonder how common it is for people who are ambidextrous to separate word fragments when writing in their weak hand. Even if this alone doesn’t specifically implicate Leigh, it could still confirm to investigators that the Zodiac was likely ambidextrous...
Looking at the letters I can't help but think they were written upside down.
Just don't try reading them on your head anymore.
amazing video
I feel like the Linguistics guy is what George Lucas would look like if he shaved his beard
And made a David Lynch film.
I'm bored with conspiratorial spins on this case. It was a single person (compare the physical descriptions of surviving victims & Presidio Heights eyewitnesses); and it's a person who was never identified.
Charlie Gauger, It was all getting very tired until I heard about Ross Sullivan. Ross Sullivan is either the most unlucky innocent suspect ever or it's him. Everything seems to add up.
Check out Lawrence Kane as well. Sullivan and Kane are by far the 2 best suspects I have come across over the years reading about this case.
Cenk Zappa, Wow, now I'm really conflicted. Sullivan Looks more like the Zodiac picture from after the Stine killing than Kane. But Sullivan was heavy set and Kane was not. Omg, I wish they'd get a solid DNA hit! AAAAA!! It's driving me mad! Some people are saying this is Lawrence Kane and some people are saying this is EV Best www.earnthenecklace.com/lawrence-kane-wiki-zodiac-killer/ Who is this??!?!
been interested in this case for 20 years , Hunt for zodiac tv show looks like there solving the case, Ross Sullivan. "The Mikado"
Tom, I know what you're saying! It's baffling though because Lawrence Kane seems to have so many connections with the Zodiac as well! www.zodiacciphers.com/lawrence-kane.html I tend to learn toward Sullivan as well.
Has anyone ever taken the extra lor missing letters to see what they may spell out, or if they're a part of the cypher?
Is it possible that ALA wrote for the zodiac and maybe that's why he cannot be discounted as being involved?
Yes there are literally millions of sentences you can make out of those 18 letters. They are much more likely to be extras to pad out the final section of the cipher so it was the same as the other two. Otherwise you could immediately tell which was the last section.
Allen is such an intriguing suspect.
I feel it in my bones, I ache to know your name and so..... I'll keep watching zodiac documentaries until I figure out this game.
My POI has his middle name clearly visible in the Halloween card. His other names can be cryptically derived. Please see my new Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption that seems to link 'Z' to the CJBates murder and Stine murder. Please click on the abstract humanoid Icon to see!
I can tell you who he was.
Rick Marshall
Rick H you don’t know shit, Lebowski
@@snorlax4life no you can, unless you have dna evidence, handwriting, a photo of him in 1969
Louis Anthony Guise 1928-2019. Time and Space the Fourth Dimension was your motivation and the Fifth dimension held your name.
5th dimension holds all names
what
Question .... why do so many ' experts ' on this case ignore Allen ? I know that they have never found physical evidence of him at the crime scenes ( not a big deal in my opinion) but Cecelia shepard who got the best view of him described a heavy 6' man, he was pointed out by two surviving victims in a photo ID too. I have a list drawn up of 30 ( THIRTY) pieces of strong circumstantial against him. Not counting the evidence of his friend, who, if telling the truth , has shut the door on this case. And this evidence just nails it down for me, that writing is very similar to the zodiaks and shares a very uncommon trait.
@xTheChosenOne I can elaborate if you like, if you would like a reasoned debate....?
@xTheChosenOne I'll take that as a no.
Very similar doesn't equal the same.
@@Bigwave2003 , Correct, since it was written in a different pen, in a differnet year then of course it won't be the same. Thats like looking at two peoples fingerprints and telling one of them that they don't have a hand , because the fingerprint wasn't ' the same'.
All those experts give quite long and valid explanations. But here in short: All the suspects have at least one thing in common : they are nut cases and might have a resemblance. Allen was a possible sex offender. Other than that nothing else in common ( a part from maybe wearing a Zodiac watch (as did most of the Marine Corps at the time).
Another suspect was Ed Edwards and he was ruled out despite his presence in the area and also having in common the serial killer attribute (which he is in prison for). The Golden State killer Di Angelo there is also a lot in common. (imho the best match except for now being quiet as opposed to bragging...but he used to be different) Anyway, then
Larry Kane has been described as “the best Zodiac suspect” by accusers who claim that he was identified by nine eyewitnesses, including the sisters of a Zodiac victim, a police officer who saw the Zodiac, a surviving victim, two witnesses at Lake Berryessa during the Zodiac attack, a man who witnessed the abduction of his girlfriend in Nevada, a police officer who may have seen the abductor, and a possible Zodiac victim.....
Sooo the list goes on...
I am naturally left handed and was encouraged to write right handed as a small child. I too have spacing in my words when wirting with my weaker right hand. And as the man says, it is down to flow. With my left, my writing naturally flows as I just know precisely how a word will be written before I have written it. With my right hand, I have to slow down a tad and keep guessing where my next letter will be placed, causing gaps in words. Weird thing is, I did not realise I do this until I saw this video.
I believe this is a bonus featurette on the bonus material disc from the 2-disc bluray special edition of the movie but anyway thanks for made this available in CZcams ...
Is a featurette a small feature? Slightly bigger than a featurttisimo?
i've been watch ing thees docs all over youtube. a person with a blank background talking. and can't find all of them in the same doc. are these differe nt and separate documentaries or no one uploaded full yet?
I'm not sure I'm afraid. But you space your writing in an interesting way.
I can use this.
I am not a bad speller and my writing skills are not bad, I am just disguising my intelligence.
The thing that most stands out to me in the zodiac letters is the authors tendency to move the location of 1st word in each line increasingly to the right. It's ubiquitous across the letters. I also noticed that this was present in the writing on the envelope sent to Tom Voight by Don Cheney. The letter within this envelope was written on squared paper, and therefore, this tendency was not in evidence.
Tell that handwriting expert. He seems to have missed that point.
Hi All.
Looking for a bit of help in answering something that's bugging me, please: years ago I read Graysmiths book, the yellow Zodiac version. One thing (a suspect) that really stood out to me in it was a man from the other side of the country, New York. The man, from what I remember, was alleged to have travelled from New York to the west coast, SF, every time there was a Zodiac killing.
I don't have the yellow book anymore - anyone know the suspect I am talking about, what's his name please?
Thanks,
Spence.
Lawrence Kane maybe?
Of course, it could be a 'red herring' itself, but this letters appear to be handwriting which
is quite 'child like' - the relative scruffiness of the letters, the lack of uniformity in size, and
distance separating both words, letters, and lines.
There's a certain 'immaturity' in the taunting of law enforcement, too.
ALA taunted the PD, but was disproved on various counts.
But that does not mean that the 'real' ZK could air similar personality
traits - ALA was a "unusual" to say the least, and a S/K could scarcely be
more unusual!
Some people wonder if the ZK got someone else to write the letters, too. Which is an
interesting idea.
Letters and hand writing style can be altered drastically by anyone. The way an instrument is held or affixed to the hand, for instance.
Indeed
One of the Zodiac's grandmother's had been a pianist for silent movies. She knew and had all the musical scores at her Steinway piano.
I've often wondered what the zodiac would have been like if he'd played the piano.
@@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt The Zodiac and his partner neither one played piano, although their GM would have tried to teach them. It was their sisters' and mothers' who played.... well.
The two were cousins. The one who played well was the aunt of one (ZK suspect) and the mother of the other.
Could be switching back and forth from left to right hand could also be a multiple personality disorder and he could of had.
Why do we keep rehashing Arthur Leigh Allen when Arthur Leigh Allen has been excluded by fingerprint and partial DNA as being the Zodiak killer?
I know, it's simply tiresome and distracting.
ALA would have to be the unluckiest man in the world to have nothing to do with Zodiac's crimes. Too much circumstantial evidence is why. Fingerprint and DNA analysis can give "wrong" results. His voice apparently didn't match though, so he could indeed be the unluckiest man in the world.
They rehash the story, parroting it over and over because they don't want the truth coming out because it will make fools out of them.
And if it was a small group behind with only one killer? ... The others could have done the phone calls and even the cyphers with ALA executing the killings ... czcams.com/video/VCNun1vcXpE/video.html
maybe he just wrote the letters.
Perhaps the separation of suffixes and prefixes from the root word is common among people with strong left and weak right hands. I know someone who can write with both, would have been born around 1950, school system probably did the same thing to him, which means he probably mains with his left too.
Music creeps me out
it's great huh
@@brandonshinn8300 you know what it's called ?
wow thats rather keen
The Zodiac's mother was the head of the secretarial pool at Standard Oil for 40 years. He knew how to spell and never got away with incorrect grammar around his mother.
@Troy Grabenstatter He was not autistic. He was the Chief Engineer of the boiler room at SFSU. He was highly intelligent and his cousin, an excop, helped him out in more ways than one. It is actually his cousin's image on the SFPD Zodiac Poster. He stepped in to create confusion. Gave the piece of Stine's shirt to the main Zodiac, who wrote letters and claimed to have killed Stine, yet it was his excop cousin who killed Stine, took the piece of shirt, gave it to the main Zodiac who wrote in claiming credit. That created confusion by having cops search for a man who looked like the guy on SFPD poster, but whose handwriting would not have matched. Very clever and very smart. Not at all autistic. He actually went on to create a VERY profitable business with other like-minded folks.
We have samples of Arthur Leigh Allen's right hand, and it looks exactly like you'd expect someone to write in the opposite hand. The whole ambidextrous thing is BS.
You are not talking about the ones he did for the police right? As he could have purposely scribbled.. however his DNA doesn't match and his palm prints dont match either.
@@dmvconartists2542 that's because he got new skin on his fingers and palms.
Do you mean bi-sequential? Or back-words semaphore?
@@dmvconartists2542 the dna was weak. He was never "ruled out" for all we know he probably was zodiac and the police was right all along. I mean when are they ever wrong, the answer is, it's very slim.
Dna can only match if the dna is good enough for a sample.
@@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt i thought don stamped the envelopes
This man is a human metronome.
I agree, tick, with you, tock, he is, tick, quite sick, tock.
Somehow the misspellings seem genuine to me; even if they are excessive. In some notes he scratches out lots of words; was that deliberate too? I think that ALA could not spell when using his non-dominant hand. I bet there is a neurological explanation for this.
I believe it's brain based but having worked with a lot of guys who are functionally illiterate, they are consistent. If they make verbal or name mistakes or transpose words or phrases, their brain does it the same time every time, the don't very. Especially as this guy points out, on words that are used often.
Wow..there was so much circumstantial evidence and you just cant be sure who did it, but this video really guaranteed it in my mind. It was Arthur Leigh Allen. Hands down.
There are some space between the words with Leigh Allens right hand which is interesting, but if you look at the rest of the writings its not similar
Is there anything in this damn case that isn't inconsluive.
Maybe this person was adding extra letters that when gathered together make another message.
or a key (or part of a key) to decrypt the 340 cipher. I've thought the same thing.
Yes I think that the corpus of Zodiac correspondence when composited together pretty much reveals everything. Please click on the abstract round humanoid icon to see a short video on my Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption. Conventional coding methodology unconventionally applied. Thanks.
DisabilityFraudKJW
That’s what I was thinking. Zodiac was into that stuff
See my V.recently posted Caesar shift Fields created by the Berryessa VW car door cryptogram, by the Dripping Pen Card, by the Sierra 'Peek through the Pines' card & the Death machine' that generated them. A Ted K link .
The Zodiac's cross symbol points to the letter elements that are to be Caesar shifted as complete fields for adjacent letter Steganography. LoFi vids not blogs. Solves not long lists of Bogeymen. Click on the generic 'R' symbol for my channel. Thanks, Rick
The problem is you can rearrange those letters into millions of plausible sentences.
Its most likely he did it to make the three sections of the cipher the same length so you couldn't identify which was the final part.
Ok so just proofreading here .. great case
People have underestimated how good the Zodiac was at cryptic crosswords and naughts and crosses. He was a county champion at both apparently.
The physical description of those who survived a attack, or witnessed a shooting are proven to be unreliable at best. Cops will use partial descriptions from 3 or more living victims for one sketch? The two groups of people are under more stress, in pain, shock, fear, the list is long! Courts around the globe won't use this type of identification for this reason
Ross Sullivan was the Zodiac.
R J Correct
Didn't he go totally insane and live in various mental institutes from 1970?
R J your right bro i got same conclusion and iam diging that case from my studies criminal justice he must be him dude spot on
Also the meaning of the name sullivan is "one eyed" or "hawk eyed", just thinking of the Halloween card
It Cant be ross he doesnt know how to drive and altough z is described being heavyset ross is to slow and fat to flee the crime scene.
In other words, yet another inconclusive dead end, like all the other pattern recognition methodologies in this case.
See my Riverside Confession letter hidden message decryption that shows a possible 3 character nickname for the Zodiac at the end of the transcript. Conventional coding methodology unconventionally applied! The strange word structure suggested to me a coded message- I was proved right! Please click on the abstract round humanoid icon to see! Thanks.
The end is only dead if you make it so.
So.... ALA was clever enough to change his pattern of misspellings? That is what the guy means with: "no conclusive pattern"?
He was also clever enough to get someone else's DNA on the stamps and someone else's palm prints on the letters.
@@_MrAvocado_ he was defended by a French advocat.
Allen bought a Most Dangerous game poster cuz he loved the movie so much and took marshalls writing stylistically for his zodiac letters. He then reproduced the letters using a template with whatever copy machine he had in hsi moms basement - hence why nothing ever matched.
I'm thinking he started the letter sober, drank and then by the end of it...thought the hiding stuff was funny...hence the sloppiness.
Its not allen. Thats been literally proven. In 2000 nonetheless
The Zodiac in his mind was acting out in rage.
Where's your evidence?
how do you know this?
he appeared to be looking for attention which was lacking in his own childhood. he was just a narcissistic psychopath.
nothing to do with anger he wants notoriety. it's his way of becoming famous.
Zodiac planned everything he was not enhusiastic ... even when he called the police he was reading from a script and so forth his letters to the media were carefully planned even his handwriting looks technical like from a blueprint ... i think that he has military background
William McDuff Andrew. CZcams his handwriting. He's the Zodiac.
Or the spelling and writing errors could be the result of a neurological problem. I have a pretty good idea heavy drinking can induce these issues and drug use might do so also. Maybe certain prescription drugs would too. You cannot assume that the person who wrote the letters was not afflicted in some way. Or assume that he was either. This was a situation which called for some expert opinion. I am not sure any was ever applied to issue of what the letters actually showed about the person who wrote them. But I do think, if they were contrived to have the errors and idiosyncrasies they exhibited, then whoever wrote them was a pretty disciplined worker.
Good point.
@@counterculture10 I reviewed the presentation again. I have my doubts the Zodiac was a character created by someone with a different type of personality. What that means is that he was actually like that and that the letters largely represented how wrote and expressed himself though I think there was some deliberate effort to create some pungency and some arrogance in tone.
Going off into another case, I thought there was some parallel between the ransom note in the Jonbenet Ramsey case in the 1990s and the Zodiac letters. There was in both a certain pungency of tone and a certain attitude. What this led me to conclude though was only that the Jonbenet Ramsey ransom note was written by someone at least in their late 20s, not a by some kid offender. Some people have said that the Ramsey note probably was written by a woman. I don't react to it that way. To me it seems male in its tone, but it could have been written by a woman. We just don't know.
fascinating stuff
you have to wonder why he did that as there are simpler ways to hide writing,
people who do stuff like this are completely normal on the outside. would not surprise me if he was a school teacher. teaching children. elementary school teacher. a normal guy with a secret.
the guy seeks power... teacher, security guard, police officer, military sergeant, etc.
is he saying Arthue Leigh Allen could have been the Zodiac?
He ain't sayin nothin. Just sayin...
Gary Francis Poste
@@charlesgerety1403Ga ry Franc es Pos te.
Jack the ripper often misspelt words and sent letters to taunt police. Pretty sure he copied all that from the ripper letters.
The writer seemed to be using a lot of stereotypically old-fashioned British constructions. Off the top of my head, he kept using "i shall" instead of "I will." There were also a lot of old-fashioned adverbs used in place of "very," e.g. i was awfully sorry to see that..... or ......it was considerably shocking to me to see that etc. Then again, a lot of the vocabulary was undoubtedly North American. e.g. no British person would ever use the word "slacks" to mean trousers.
And so did Misspelt, by geography teacher who did every lesson on the rain.
I do not think the ciphers are any help in solving the case. I also have a learning disability where I drop letters while writing and make spelling mistakes and do not notice them until i look back at my writing later.
A great example of forensic linguist is ted kosinski ...
This Zodiac could become America's Jack the Ripper , never identified to this day .
Jack the Ripper has been identified. He was American serial killer H.H. Holmes who was overseas at the time attempting to run the same medical skeleton scam he was running in America. He has been pinned there at the right time with documentation, his diary, and handwriting analysis.
I don't think either correlate with the other.
Ken D. Webber , Pure speculation , Every so often some expert or other comes up with yet another suspect , none have been proven or even generally accepted without doubt .
+aspiknf
Is that what it says in the only book you own, on Jack the Ripper? lol Asspick.
I believe zodiac was largely aware of and influenced by jack the ripper. Jack the ripper sent letters to police and he often misspelt words also. Zodiac must have been well read because in those days that kind of info was only available in libraries and likely not taught in schools.
How does it make sense to feign stupidity or lack of education by misspelling words
But then you send encrypted messages to police or the media?
The Z13 has thirteen letters/symbols and begins and ends with the following letters...
AENNAM
This anagrams into "AN AMEN" which is fitting for the religio-speak found within the various correspondence. This is the word "NAME" (what the clue is about) with the letters "A" and "N" on either side. When you take those two letters and line them up under the centered letters "K" and "M" and then add the letter values by columns then the values are (12 and 27). These are the letters for "LA" and I presume to hint at "Los Angeles". That area was a hotbed of activity and close to the 1963 and 1966 attacks. Later, Manson and his group would start actively committing crimes at about the same time as "Z" in San Francisco. Could there be a larger group involved? Or maybe some mutual connections due to belief system and correspondence?
The reason for the above postulation is that the Manson group was alleged to have killed upwards of thirty-five or more people just like the San Francisco "Z" case and that many were unknown and not prosecuted. Any unsolved crimes are very often linked to later or even concurrent people due to similarities in MO or other areas.
No, decrypted it means Alfred E Neuman. He was taunting the police.
That's why the A = A and the NAM at the end is MAN when decrypted.
I have already decyphered the name generator and key and used it quite successfully throughout and with other solves and diagrams. Thanks for the input, though.
Nope. It is easy and a key/name generator.
No, that is just what you were led to believe.
I’m ambidextrous as well, right hand dominant, but when I write with my left hand I purposely have letters within words close together. This isn’t because I think exactly that way, not necessarily; I just find it more aesthetically pleasing altogether. What if the Zodiac killer found that this kind of writing, this kind of broken syllabic writing, was characteristic of children from a certain time where teachers ordered them to write with their weak hand? And/or, what if it - this broken syllabic writing - was aesthetically pleasing to him/her?
some kind of brain injury also in self reporting crimes on the phone
Its obvious the misspelling was intentional. We knew that 40 years ago. The interesting thing about this video is he's undecided if it were Allan.
Gary Francis Poste
Allen's handwriting was dramatically different from that of the Zodiac. At 9:41, note how Zodiac's writing slants to the right, while Allen's is more vertical. Zodiac's writing tended to be level with a baseline, while Allen's tended to slant up at the end of many words. In addition, almost every letter formation differs between the two writers. Note the lower case "d" for example: dramatically slanted to the right and close-looped by Zodiac, but vertical and often with an open loop by Allen. Aside from the fact that they both wrote in ink, there's not much similarity!
Did this guy not just say it’s likely the Zodiac masked his real writing?
Tbh, I know absolutely nothing about this suspect, but I did notice even with the focus on printed letters there is a very clear felon’s claw in the sample handwriting shown around 10:00ish.
Specifically, at 10:03 in the y’s for very, happy, and supply.
Oh, and a bit on the g in asking.
Isn't there a mailbox / postcode on any of the letters that were sent from whoever sent the letters , to show where they came from / posted from , IE . from which State of the US . or even from a foreign country . Perhaps the " Zodiac Killer " wasn't even American , and he may have been an active serviceman from another country ?!!!!!! ...... This is just a random theory of mine .
With all due respect this sounds like stilted speech and that it's unintentional. I have ASD and schizoid PD and was told that I have very, very distinctive stilted speech. If I'm not keeping tabs to revisit what I write and edit out typos, my instinctive path is to spell all things phonetically. This leads me to misplacing 'right' with 'write,' for example. Sometimes I add extra e's to the ends of things or will double up on an ending vowel like the Zodiac did for 'doo,' because I am writing out while my mind loops the phonetics faster than I can write. I will make conjoined words of things like 'bandroom' or split conjoined words into two like 'bath room,' or instead I will hyphenate a conjoined word like 'teen-age.' These things are at random and subconscious to me; the way I write or spell something can change quickly between the next time I do it if I'm not proofreading. I can see the Zodiac is doing that too. If I'm remembering correctly on the people he telephoned to announce the Lake Berryessa murders, the Zodiac is said to very monotone and have a calculated cadence. Once even trailing off into a failed sing-song intonation for "goodbye." All this leads me to believe that the Zodiac wasn't intentionally misspelling; just not going back and correcting what was already there. He is definitely of higher than average intelligence, and might have had some sort of condition that led to this speech pattern. It would also make sense with his knack for cryptography. All this being said, if he did have something like SzPD that is not the reason he became a serial killer. Schizoid, schizotypal, schizophrenia, psychosis, etc. do not make people violent on their own. But if he did have SzPD, I can see that being why it's so hard to catch him: In daily life he would be very reclusive and potentially coworkers would overlook him as the quiet guy that will pleasantly say good morning back but only if approached to. And he has a thick internal fantasy world like his enjoyment of cryptography, the Mikado, and bravado he displays in his communications.
I think was 2 zodiac, one was leigh Allen
Andunus Dick at least two! ... My personal theory is that they were a group of people with the same "interests" ... At least one active killer ... See how some pedophiles work ... Some pedophiles work in groups, sharing their victims or experiences ... Even some produce materials like photographs to be used in other places ... So this could have happened with this case ...
Ross Sullivan baby ... best match.
For Cheri Jo Bates, which isn’t confirmed to Zodiac
Are the misspelt words part of a cipher?
no. By no one has identified the zodiac yet. And about two minutes more of hotdogs and chips.
They know exactly who the zodiac was but there is a difference between knowing and being able to prove and convict.
Bottom line they dont know who the Zodiac killer was
I remember Sept 27th 1969 my family was at lake berryessa and it was my dads birthday I was not there but I remember the panic and fear The Zodiac created, not to mention the poor people lives he took. They will never know who the real killer was. It's obvious he was too smart for everyone.
Gary Francis Poste
@@charlesgerety1403 Nope, its not him . 3 police Departments have not signed off on that theory. Just the want to be investigators. Fake news.
He certainly murdered the English language with his spelling
Not sure who has the piano now. An Underwood most likely.
Yeah you can tell the Zodiac killer was trying to hide his writing language, the letter is nice and neat in some parts and in other parts messy and scribbled, most likely using two different hands when writing the letters.
I have been thinking that since he called him self the zodiac there were two persons involved in this case one wrote the letters and the other did the murders so I assume the two can call them selves Gemini killers since there were two
The zodiac got the name from a hippie who was into astrology. He noticed how humans were so superstitious and could be fooled easily. So he took the name The Zodiac.
At least two! .... A small group with one killer and other(s) making phone calls, cyphers etc ...
Very unlikely and illogical to think there were two people. There is no evidence of that and the killer had stine's shirt and sent it with two letters. There is also evidence never released to the public which many suspect is Paul Stine's drivers license which the Zodiac is also believed to have sent with another letter.
I believe there was more then 1 killer..
Don Cheney was the zodiac
Hal Snook wrote the letters
What if the Zodiac was Dyslexic?
My god that first guy needs to get to the point already!
imyourgodmachine yet I'd love to hear more of his opinion on the various letters!
Do you really think God is a machine? There needs to be a documentary about that. Machiniac.
The content and descriptive form are sometimes altered but only by someone with intelligence. Style in writing is unique and the longer a letter or correspondence, the easier it is to decipher the author.
And alliteration adds an anti-establishment artifice to attribution.
...or maybe it wasn't Arthur Leigh Allen.
I fell asleep at two minutes...what did I miss?
Not much.
That no one has identified the zodiac yet. And a lot of hotdogs and chips. I fell asleep after a minute. What did I miss?
I think,,,, pretty many know Who knows WHO's war hes was hire,, and the code is not code
Its messeges,,,, as when killed,,, the suffering,,,, is us whos left,
If you want to break the CIPHER, you have to use the zodiac calendar that has 13 months and the 13th month has symblosfor each day.
maybe bro was just dyslexic
Allens DNA on the stamps was not confirmed last I heard .
Alien's DNA was though.
Maybe wanted to be done with his spelling or thoughts as soon as possible could not slow down to write correctly or didn't like self
Similarities plus all the other circumstantial evidence, hmmm very interest ing. We shall see, DNA test ing being conduc ted right now. Tick tock, tick tock
I think you misspell ed conduct ed.
I wonder if Allen was the writer of the Zodiac letters and a friend of his was actually doing the killing?
I think he knew who the killer, and he was messing with the police the whole time
J Gamez. same thing I thought about this case
Except DNA and palm print analysis show Allen didn't write the letters. Keep twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to make your pet theory work.
@@Bigwave2003 how do you get palm prints from a letter lol?
Too bad the DNA in the back of the stamps didn't match Allen.
They've got the results now then?
Pierce Arrow they never announced the DNA from the back of the stamps
My understanding is Aurther L Allen was exonerated by DNA
Penny Thpmas really? ...
DNA forgives no man.
Another highly paid experts saying idk
LFMAO this had me crying HAHAHAHAHA Best video EVER!!!!! i love forensics!!!!!!!!! FORENSICS 4 LIFE BABYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!
He was an engineering student. He misspelled words because he was reading the journals of Lewis and Clark at the time, and Lewis misspelled the same words. He also had dyslexia, and at times just spelled however he felt they should be spelled, because "low lifes don't deserve" him to make the effort to follow spelling rules.
Id like to point out you're all a bunch of liars in this comment section.
Arthur Leigh Allen to this day is still #1 suspect. You're not professional detectives to say otherwise😂