Champion 5000W Natural Gas Conversion Comparison of Motor Snorkel and Nash Fuel Conventional Venturi
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2020
- General discussion of gasoline vs. natural gas, specific comparison of 2 different conversion products and technical info regarding inverter type generators.
Thanks for video . first time I heard any of this information.
Hi Jarrad, yourself and few others have commented about the snorkel getting in way of choke when running gasoline so I emailed US carb last night and pleasantly surprised with their quick response.
Shawn (US Carburetion)
Hello,
The snorkel is designed with a flexible probe that goes past the choke butterfly. The probe is designed with an extremely durable material that is able to be squashed by the choke when closed and then springs back to it's original form when the choke reopens. (pics attached of the choke closed on a champion carb). The only time I've ever seen that being an issue is on the generator's that have an automatic choke. They use a tiny servo motor to close the choke automatically and it just isn't strong enough. However I haven't seen issues on the manual chokes over the years.
They sent a very large picture of choke open and closed (mostly) but don't think I can upload it here, unfortunately. I will be going with US Carb version and not Nash and appreciate your video
Thanks for the comment. Additional info and clarificatiion is always welcome.
Thanks for a nice, detailed review. Many other reviews leave out too many details.
I'm pleased that you found the information useful. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the vid, and info on load balancing between the outlets. I got the next inverter up, 100520; and run as a portable home back up. Just got the motor snorkel and will able to load test up to 6500 watts with NG, gas it's rated for 7250. We will see. Check my champion vid to get it to run ur home AC.
Thanks for the positive comments, glad you found the vid worthwhile.
Just recently bought the same model generator, also wish to convert to natural gas. I had spoken to a couple of the generator conversion companies tech's and they mentioned because inverters ramp up and down, the fuel flow needs to be throttled too. Also, if the generator stops, you need some way to stop the flow of gas or you will have a serious explosion hazard in just a few moments. That said, I thought about using a MODULATED gas furnace controller to control the flow of natural gas to the generator, with the load controlling the gas flow, and if the generator stops, have the gas controller immediately stop the flow of gas automatically. Considering my home power has only been off about 18 hours in the last 10 years, I suspect I would spend more time trying to convert it than I would ever use it, so unless I get really bored, I'm thinking I may just leave it as a gasoline burner and find other things to get into.
By the way, thank you for taking the time to post your video, I feel it is the best so far that I have found. Your comments about the inverter output were particularly helpful since that is something that had not occurred to me about the inverters being a pair of 2,500 watts each, in series with each other. Somehow I lucked up and the transfer panel I bought has dual meters to help keep things balanced and I will certainly keep a close eye on it now that you brought up the balance issue.
Best Regards,
Thanks for watching, and the kind words. I wanted to comment regarding the Natural Gas conversion and safety. The Nat Gas regulator for an engine conversion is a NEGATIVE pressure type that SHUTS OFF when there is no air flow (engine NOT running). The way it works is based on the venturi effect. The adapter for the conversion kits are installed between the carb intake and the air filter box. Its the air flow through adapter that creates negative pressure and causes the regulator to open thus Nat Gas flows in an amount proportional to the air flow through the carb. You shouldn't need any special modulating valves or anything like that. Of course when the generator is not in use I turn off the main valve. If you intend to use the generator as a back-up in auto start mode I would certainly consider some type of solenoid valve and not rely only on the Nat Gas regulator. That said, the Nat Gas regulator absolutely should not allow Nat Gas to flow unless the engine is running on your generator. Typically you would exercise the gen once a month and check everything for gas leaks. Hope that makes sense.
I think that's typical....and one of the reasons I decided to use only 120v to feed my house during outages, using the generators TT-30R.
I installed the motor snorkel on champion's next larger size generator the 100520 (7000 running watts). I'm adjusting the gas block as per the directions with a digital tach but can only achieve a max of 3400 rpm. Is this because it is an inverter? Did you measure your RPM. I'm using a BBQ tank and regulator and it's about 20 degrees F outside today so that might be part of it. Any advice appreciated.
Hello Thomas, I didn't use a tachometer to adjust the gas flow. I just set the eco throttle to off and adjusted the screw IN (lean mixture) until the motor just started to run rough then backed the screw out about a 1/4 turn. I then set the eco throttle ON to lower the RPM and turned on a load of about 2500 watts to see how the motor reacted to the throttle being opened rapidly. It seemed like there was a little hesitation so I opened the adjusting screw about another 1/4 turn. Seems to work just fine. You are correct that inverter type generators are not dependent on the RPM to regulate frequency as were the traditional 2 pole type that ran at 3600. The inverter regulates the frequency and voltage electronically. That said, it is still possible for the voltage to "sag" a little when a large load is placed on the generator all at once since it takes a certain amount of time for the engine to speed up when the controller opens the throttle. This happens to a larger degree when ECO throttle is ON then the RPM is allowed to decrease for fuel economy.
Nice Video. Looks like your going to do all the necessary work to use the Nash kit, do you think it's better than the MotorSnorkel? Also, did you use a tach to tune? If you did, what RPM does it idle down to in ECO at no or very little load?
Bruce, The Nash kit was the one I installed last with all the modifications mentioned in the video and is the one I left on. I can't say that the Nash is better than the Motor Snorkel because they both work well. My unsubstantiated belief is that because the Motor Snorkel partially blocks the intake on one side of the choke plate, full throttle performance may suffer due to limited air flow. I only tested both conversion kits up to about 50% load and there was no detectable difference. Clearly the Motor Snorkel would be the better choice in cases where a frame modification would be necessary to use a conventional style THICKER venturi. I didn't test RPM with the ECO throttle on or off because at this time I don't have the instrument.
Thanks for the video. I have enphase M215 micro inverters and bought the same generator as your mainly to try to trick the solar into thinking I'm grid tied. I noticed the envoy on your wall and was wondering if you have tried getting your solar to work off grid? I'm also looking at the enlighten AC coupled battery that pairs well with the m215 but only after the firmware update. Any thoughts on their battery or doing the firmware update?
dcuste, You ask good questions, the answer is a bit complicated. I have posted other videos describing the Schneider inverter and LFP batteries that are connected in an AC coupled configuration. Yes, the Enphase inverters do continue to work just fine in a power out situation with the Schneider inverter providing the source of 60Hz. If the Enphase system is producing MORE solar power than is being consumed by our home the excess gets pushed through the Schneider charging circuit into the 48V batteries. When the batteries are full, the Schneider Inverter increases the frequency to 60.6 Hz thus forcing the Enphase Inverters to shut down per UL1741 so the batteries don't overcharge. A typical Grid-Tie inverter like the Enphase is an MPPT type system and will attempt produce as much power as possible based on immediate solar conditions therefore you should NEVER try and use a generator with your grid-tie inverters. Any excess power will get pushed backwards through the generator electronics and most likely destroy them. As far as the Enphase AC coupled battery, in my opinion it is overpriced, electrically undersized and physically bulky. Its one of those things that may look good on paper and in theory but is not practical.
@@bentleyjarrard885 Thanks for the fast reply. I watched your other videos and your battery system is exactly what I've been looking for. Your shed and yard came out very nice. I can see your abilities at design and fabrication are top notch. I have an extensive X10 network of probably around 30 devices and control it with a X10 CM15A, a honeywell 20p security system and a raspberry pi that transmits PLC and RF and is also controlled by Alexa. I originally thought having Alexa control would not be useful, but now I find my using that constantly. My 20P is controlled remotely using an EyezOn board. EyezOn allows me to completely monitor and control from anywhere that has internet to any X10 device in my home. It also allows me to schedule events on google calendar to control devices like lights, sprinklers and the driveway gate. It all pretty robust.
Other than that we have very similar interests/solutions. I am located in Fallbrook in a fire area so I've had my power interrupted and expect more outages. I was out for about 3 hours yesterday. I would like to talk with you more about how I can accomplish what you have done with the battery and hopefully give you some ideas too. Not sure of YT policy, but if could email me using my YT handle at yahoo, I will reply with my #.
@@dcuste I sent you an email from protonmail, hope you get it.
I'm in the process of deciding what kit to buy. I know I don't want one where I have to cut the frame like the ones with thick spacer. The Nash Fuel one looks like it would fit good. My one question is did you modify the venturi adapter to match the shape of the stock gasket?
Ken G, I did place the factory gasket on the Nash Fuels venturi (carburetor side) and found a couple of cutouts in the gasket that were not present in the Nash Fuels device. I drilled them out but only about halfway through so the holes in the carburetor were not obstructed and there was no disturbance of the actual venturi profile on the other side. I detailed all of this in part 2 on my channel, its only 5 min and may answer some your questions. Thanks for watching.
@@bentleyjarrard885 Thanks, I watched the 2nd video.Good advice.
Do you have a link to the MotorSnorkel kit for the Champion Hybrid generator?
Sorry forgot to mention the Motor Snorkel is a product of US Carburetion. motorsnorkel.com or uscarburetion.com will get you to their website where there is some fairly good info and product selector. Their phone number is also there if you need to call.
Great video bud! How many running watts were you able to get out of her running on NG?
Thanks for the positive feedback. After posting the video using the 2 space heaters (2500W) I actually never conducted any further testing such as the max output. Now you got me thinking, it would be interesting to do a full load comparison with gasoline vs. nat gas. Problem is I don't have access to a good load bank where I can ramp up the current in measured increments.
All good bud I’m fixn to rig up the same exact set up with NG just I was curious to see how many running watts you could squeeze out!
I recently got a kit very similar to the motorsnorkel. Everything appears to be attached properly, but am having a tough time starting it with nat gas. spark looks good, no leaks, i feel neg pressure from the spark plug hole, oil looks good, no warning lights, etc. Did you need a carb quick start spray? Champion says its likely a fuel flow issue - from what u said, perhaps not enough air coming through? Thoughts or tips? Thanks!
Hello, sorry you are having problems starting, its a common problem. You didn't mention if your regulator has a priming button? It's usually necessary to push the priming button for 1 to 2 seconds to get some Nat Gas in the filter box and carb intake area because at the low starting RPM the regulator does not deliver any fuel. The initial prime allows the engine to fire and get to sufficient speed and intake airflow that the neg. pressure regulator will open and deliver fuel. The starting technique is something that is unique to every situation, it takes some time to figure out. That said, in your situation I would be inclined to skip over the "start up" learning curve and perhaps try and use a cordless drill with a socket attachment to spin the motor faster using the flywheel/crankshaft nut behind the pull cord cover. If you can at least get the motor running then you can adjust the fuel mixture screw and verify that everything is working. Once this is done, you can revisit the start up procedure trying different things until it works. Be very CAREFUL if you do use a drill, you must pull it off the nut as soon as the engine fires.
Thanks for watching and commenting. Let me know if any of this helps.
@@bentleyjarrard885 thanks! Yup, has priming button and played with it a bit. After watching a few reviews, Im going to try the carb quick start and see how it goes. Hoping thats enough to jump start it. Thanks again for the reply!
Fyi for anyone that may read this, carb quick start spray in the carb worked. That plus purge for 3-4 seconds and it fired right up. Thanks again for the video and assistance!
@@user-fx5gb2vf9g Thanks for the follow up info. Good to hear you had success with the conversion.
Great review! One question: Does the NG keep flowing if the engine stops, such as if the low oil shutdown kicks in? I want to convert mine and have wondered if this would happen.
BrazDane, No worries, Nat Gas is delivered only when the engine is running and there is air flow passing by the Venturi or Motor Snorkel which creates negative pressure that essentially "sucks" the Nat Gas in via the special neg. pressure regulator. This is actually the same concept as a normal gasoline carburetor where the air flow pulls liquid gasoline up from the float bowl through the jet into the incoming air stream. Of course the Nat Gas is pressurized vs liquid gasoline, thus the regulator that comes with the kit takes care of this issue and does not allow Nat Gas to flow unless it senses negative pressure. It has to do with the way the diaphragm and springs are set up differently than in the Nat Gas regulator for a home that will supply pressurized Nat Gas at approx. 8" of water column. Thanks for watching and for the comment. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
Could you attach Venturi. Inside of air filter canister? Drill a hole for hose?
I suppose you could install the venturi inside the airbox as long as the air filter could be "seated" in its proper location without gaps that would let in debris.
Has anyone tried to start a generator with the Motor Snorkel kit installed on gasoline with a "cold" engine? Watching the installation, it seems that the snorkel tube would prevent the choke from closing and thereby make starting the generator cold on gas very difficult if not impossible. Thanks!
D C, good observation. Yes the Motor Snorkel does obstruct the choke plate but is a fairly soft rubber compound that can bend and deform easily to allow the choke to close, at least partially. This feature is mentioned on their website. You are correct that rubber will get stiff in low temps, and also worth noting, tends to get harder and more brittle with age. I'm in the Southern Calif area so we don't see temps below the mid 20's. When I posted the video we had avg temps in the 60 to 70 range and I had no problem closing the choke to about 75% and starting on gasoline. Not sure what potential problems you may have at very low temps. Probably worth a call to the distributor and ask them what kind of rubber they are using and how it responds to lower temps.
I have this generator. How much does it put out with the motor snorkel?
Unfortunately, I didn't have a large enough load bank to test the FULL output power when running on natural gas. I only had 2 portable bathroom heaters which would be about 3,000 to 3,200W with both running on High. Typically you would loose 10 to 15% of the power output when using nat gas on a gasoline generator.
I want to buy this exact generator and the Motor Snorkel kit for natural gas. Can you give us a shopping list to buy to make sure we get it correct? Thank you!
Hello Rob H, The Motor Snorkel Kit was the easiest to install and didn't require any additional hardware. As it turns out, I had called them directly because I only needed the Motor Snorkel not the whole kit with the regulator. The order was placed via the phone so I do not have a record of the Snorkel part number, they looked it up and sent it. Also their website is not all that good with regard to being able to look up kits by exact Generator model number. If you call them directly 1-800-553-5608, MotorSnorkel.com they will look up the correct kit for you. Thanks for the comment.
@@bentleyjarrard885 Did you ever get it working properly with NG? Even if I don't buy this one, I'd probably look at a similar Chinese clone.
@@rob21, Yes, is working great. Both Nat Gas conversion kits worked, its just that the Nash Fuels kit required some additional hardware and some minor drilling on the polymer venturi attachment to get the carb vent to line up. I did a follow up video after the Nash was installed.
What do they mean by carb side out?
The notation on the venturi adapter is "Carb Side" with an arrow. That side goes against the carb and the air filter box goes against the other side. This is because a venturi only works if the air is flowing in the proper direction. Its a uni-directional device and must be installed properly.
@@bentleyjarrard885 Thanks.
Those Nash kits are complete garbage. I almost made the mistake of ordering one for my Champion inverter generator (model # 100520) a few months ago. The kit got my attention because it was roughly $60 cheaper than the US Carb kit version. I did some research and in the end I chose the US Carb kit. It's the second time I have used their kits and they have never let me down. I ran a US Carb kit on my previous Champion model # 100110 generator and it never gave me any problems while running on propane. I installed a US Carb kit on my 100520 model and it works perfectly. So the moral of my story is this, cheaper isn't always better. And in my experience, the US Carb kits are a much better designed kit that simply work.
Thanks for the comment regarding your experience with US Carb. I'm assuming you are referring to their conventional (venturi) conversion kit not the Motor Snorkel which is also their product. I agree that cheaper is not always better, I generally try and find the best VALUE product when possible. Your characterization of the Nash Kit as "garbage" may be a little exaggerated. While it was definitely not a "plug and play" installation and did require extra parts, a few choice words and some minor modifications, the end result is that it works quite well. The neg. pressure regulator that comes with the kit is the same name brand product as in the more expensive kits and the fiber reinforced polymer venturi adapter (while not machined aluminum) is well made and works just fine.
@@bentleyjarrard885 the fact that the Nash kit is not completely “plug n play” without needing any extra parts or fabrication of existing parts is more than grounds for me calling their kit garbage. I looked at the same kit you showed in your video. It had the same Venturi adapter as yours and I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the fact that it doesn’t have the same cut out holes like the factor gasket has. The US Carb kit has just that. Everything is 100% plug n play without needing to jury rig anything. But, at the end of the day it’s all up to the purchaser and what his/her budget is for a project like this. But to me, depending the extra money on the US Carb kit is most definitely worth it.
@@Ozzie4Para - whats the part number of the kit you preferred for your 100520?
@@jmm1000 The part # from the US Carb website is MSK3101. It's for the Champion 100520 generator with the 420cc engine.
@@Ozzie4Para Mint - Thanks, Ozz-man!
on a 7000 watt gen you only loose about 1200 watts thats not that much lol always use hose clamps vibration can knock the hose off better safe than sorry n dead .....
Thanks for watching and for the info.