Attenuators Explained | Automotive Oscilloscope Diagnostics | Mechanic Mindset
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
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What are attenuators and when should you use them for automotive oscilloscope diagnostics? In this video I use the Hantek HT201 20:1 Attenuator to explore how attenuators work and what happens if you don't use one!
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Thanks Darren… also I signed up for your training classes and they are super helpful.thank you Brother!
Awesome! Great to have you in the course. Feel free to contact me if you have any feedback/questions. Hope to get a live session set up soon 👍
Great video Darren, thanks for sharing, Cheers
Another awesome video well done Darren
Thanks Stephen!
thank you for the simple explanation as i hate reading my manual looking for this info. Aloha!
New to the channel, very much enjoyed the video. Well done mate 👍👌
Great to have you on the channel Gerard! Thanks! 👍
thank you very much for the knowledge you share with us
I heard about attenuator in this channel 1st time in my life & today i learned about it............. Thanks 😊 for the upload, please keep uploading...
Glad you’re enjoying the channel! 👍
well explained, thank you, you got a new subscriber as I see your channel has a lot more to show.
Great to have you on the channel, and thanks!
Thanks for sharing Darren
Thanks for watching Ian 👍
Great explanation as always Darren 👍👍👍 I reckon the 2204 is the value for money , very capable scope 🙌
Cheers Igor! Yeah it’s amazing value for money. It will cover most your needs, but 4 channels would be nice 👍
good video help thank you
Love your videos m8….top stuff.
Cheers Joe! Which is your favourite so far?!
Thank you very much explain attenuater thank you....
You are welcome
thank you Sir!
Full scale measurment range is 20v but it has over voltage protection up to 100v. Great little scope
Great place to start for scope diagnostics. Will force you to learn the settings 👍
영상 참고합니다.
감사합니다.
Check out this video for a review on the PicoScope 2204A! czcams.com/video/1LBKtlpCj_4/video.html
thanks mate
I havr one of those scopes. It is nice to know that if i accidentally hooked it up to something like an injector and forgot to hook up my attenuater the Scope would survive. Thank and i look forward to more videos.
Haha, yes it can be quite worrying - they are actually quite robust. i think this 2204A has 100V overvoltage protection too. Glad you are enjoying the channel!
Thanks very much for explaining. Slowly feeling more confident to buy kit. Finding that model 4225a isn't easy though.
Excellent! Yes, they are hard to get right now. If you are in the UK, try Diagnostic Connections. There was a 6 week wait last I checked
Nice quicky
Scope training has been very limited until this year in the aftermarket. With the introduction of secured gateway modules increasing by manufactures, labscopes are even more important than ever to see sensor data. Ford has introduced it on the factory FRDS side and Chrysler is now training with the Pico as part of factory training. It is now been realized how important lab scopes are on the auto and truck side. You video’s cover a lot of simple/essential details about how to use the hardware and adjust the settings when using scopes in general. How to set up a scope for what you need to see is mostly what technicians are missing. It’s hard to use a tool you don’t understand. I appreciate the information.
Hi Mark, it really is a great tool and capable of so much in the right hands! Cheers
a very friendly but not profesional labscope is the hantek 1008 it will automatic adjust all the settings u need to work with and aldo gives u a waveform sample of what you looking for on a circuit or sensor or auto part u testing. i have posted a couple of videos about it, but my very first 2 videos are in spanish language, not sure if you can catch some ideas from my videos. but there are english speaking videos about the hantek.
Gret video useful info
Thanks, glad you found it useful! 👍
Excellent learning a lot guess this is used when doing ripple test on alternator
No not needed for light vehicles, this scope can measure up to 20V without the attenuator 👍
@@MechanicMindset awesome
Presumably there are zener diodes tied to the input circuit, to automatically spill the extra voltage to ground in an effort to protect more delicate downstream devices. Problem is, those zener diodes have a maximum wattage so eventually they will be sacrificed and smoke out. Meanwhile the waveforms are distorted. Nice demo!
Cheers! I checked out the attenuator circuit online. Looks like an arrangement of resistors in parallel and series to achieve the reduction 👍. Gadgets Playlist channel makes one, pretty cool!
@@MechanicMindset Yeah, that's interesting. The zener diodes need to be inside the pico itself, it's a fairly common way to help protect components.
Our PicoScope Training Is Now Live! www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach
Hi, have you produced a video, which covers the strategy you would follow, if a car is presented to you with a dead ECU , which is the problem I have….and why I’m seriously considering enrolling on your course.
@@californiadreamin8423 Hi, the ‘5 Tips for CAN Bus diag’ might help. If you can’t communicate then check powers, grounds & network.
The course is mainly about oscilloscope diagnostics, but will be launching something new soon 👍
@@MechanicMindset Thanks. I intend to email you in the next few days if you don’t mind.
@@californiadreamin8423 Yeah no prob, just quote your CZcams user name so
I know who it is 👍
Z
Wow you didn’t need to put your gear at risk, but it’s nice to know there is a bit of head room on the specs...Thx & Cheers
I’m not sure how much it can take before giving up, but I’ve done stuff like this a few times forgetting to put the attenuator on. Cheers 👍
HaHa, really anything of solenoid winding ECM ground control. VVT could also be anyone worse enemy for oscilloscope. Great video Sir!👌
For sure, tread cautiously! Thanks 👍
nice one buddy i may yet buy one the only thing that puts me off is i would need the attenuator on constantly
Yeah the input voltage is a bit of a compromise. But can’t beat the value! Cheers 👍
Good video. What are your thoughts on the maxiscope
Cheers! Someone asked me the same a few weeks ago. Not used it before but I think I remember the sample rate isn’t as good as what you will get on a picoscope, but would be good enough for most things. Personally I love the Pico software. You could get a 2405A 4 channel scope with awesome sample rate and 4 channels for around the same as the Maxiscope, but if you want all the automotive specific support, the maxiscope could be a good option too. So many variables!
Darren, with a 2204A and attenuator can coil dwell times be measured? I'd like to see a video on that and also injector(petrol) traces before i commit to buy. Great channel mate.
Hi Tony, yes you should be able to measure coil dwell times. Have to admit that the older stuff is a bit before my time! I'll get my dad on it haha! I have already made 2x videos on injector testing, check them out:
Voltage check - czcams.com/video/F3n9YVbnaeA/video.html
Current check - czcams.com/video/F3n9YVbnaeA/video.html
Thanks!
great video and nice explanation as always . thanks Mate >> do you think i have to use attenuator when i connect currant clamp ??
Hi Nidal, no need for attenuator with the current clamp. The current clamp only outputs low voltages. Only need one if the voltage will exceed the maximum input voltage. Cheers! 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks Mate
Awesome explanation. I see about an average of 390v spikes on the primary side of the ignition system. You think the scope would be okay with the attenuator? I’m thinking of getting on of these scopes but that’s the only thing that concerns me. Currently using a maxiscope but the software has its limits.
Personally I think it will be fine. It is close but the sort amount of time the voltage is high probably won’t affect the scope. For $100 you can go wrong! Pico software is amazing, but I’ve not used the Maxisxope. A lot of people are using the 2204A and I’ve not heard of any failing yet. Cheers!
hi, do u have a video or can you upload one about using an attenuator on a high speed data N or can bus circuits? thank you.
Hi, I have many CAN bus videos on the channel 👍
-Ring-Ring...!
-Hello?
-Yes, this is the 90's calling and I want my Flexray back!
While talking to you, let me introduce a state of the art MOST tranceiver and give you a heads-up for the upcomming BroadR-Reach and 1000base-t1 you *should* have seen in a very near future...
Haha! MOST; I have a pretty cool way to test that. Although that is on its way out..
Ethernet; there is the future (or now). I haven’t looked in to it yet, but we’d need a lot more than a 2204A to capture anything!
@@MechanicMindset : Yes as of 2020 no one in their right mind would impliment MOST. CAN is on its way out too, replaced by CAN-FD. LIN is going strong along with all other 1-wire interfaces like SENT, PWM and misc weird "intelligent" sensor ones... Xbase-t1 replaces everything now, everything from powertrain backbone to infotainment and chassis. New challenges for workshops since these run duplex differential busses which can't directly be sniffed.
@@bigcheese781 Fun times ahead! Got to keep moving 👍
@@bigcheese781 Also check out A2B networks
I'm considering an 2205a and would like to know if that Hantek HT201 attenuator would work on it. The 2205a is rated 25MHz. The attenuator says 20MHz. Thanks!
Was recently at the Irvine CA JLR training facility for the new defender class and thought to myself, "Hmm, why does that guy look so familiar?" haha
Haha, that’ll be me! Hope all the guys at Irvine are good 👍
Nice video. Question:
I would like to measure voltage on a V8 engine in the spark plug wires all at once. I was thinking a scope with 8 channels would be perfect but was concerned the voltage on/in the wire was too large for a scope. Then I starting learning about attenuators and saw your video. What kind of equipment would be best to do this? A scope + really big attenuators? A clamp voltage meter? Will a clamp meter even register anything? Easy and cheap is good. What I'm really after is confirming the fidelity of an upstream component (like an ICM). So the baseline setup has all good components. Then say I have 20 of these to test, I just swap in a component, start it up, measure/view spark plug wire output to confirm it's good. Any suggestion on a good setup to do this? I like the idea of an 8 channel scope as it can measure/display 8 wires at once and an upstream ICM might impact any of them, so no need to move probes around during tests. A clamp on solution would require moving the clamp to each of the 8 wires during the test which is ok too, as long as it reads something meaningful/consistent.
Hi, you can get 8 channel scopes but good ones are expensive. Hantek make the secondary ignition clamp and would be good if you have ignition leads. If you could get one with 8 clamps on you could measure all of them one one channel (as they don’t all fire at the same time and it has attenuator built in). BMW used to have a tool, it was 6 metal clamps connect by one piece of wire, then you clamped them to the top of the individual coils to read the ignition waveforms of every cylinder (like my coin test video). You might be able to make something yourself for either application (coil packs or ignition leads). I have a few ideas to try for a video. Hope that helps. Thanks for watching!
PS clamp voltage meter probably would read anything, it would be too slow
Very useful information, my scope has 1x 10x and 100x modes, can i use a 20x attenuator on it? if i do so in wich mode should i set the scope?
Hi, this attenuator is usually used for x1 inputs 👍
@@MechanicMindset Thank you very much
So with automotive is the only issue voltage? Not amperage? So if I test across the post/neg of a starter which is at 12v but higher amps, that would be fine. You only need an attenuator just to reduce the voltage to under 20v?
That’s right, current doesn’t flow through the scope the same as a multimeter on amp mode. It’s just the maximum voltage we need to watch 👍
Hi Darren am i correct in saying we dont need an attenuator to do a relative compression test when using voltage without an amp clamp.I also read somewhere that we sould use one when testing vvt solenoid actuators is this correct? Cheers
No need for relative compression. No need for VVT. Need it for solenoids or coils that switch on and off instantly (injectors, EVAP solenoid, ign coils etc)
@@MechanicMindset Thanks Darren really helpfull.LOVE your online training learning loads.👍
Good video, 💯👍👍
I want to buy Picoscop, now Iam here in Kuwait ,the one you give Amazon its showing currently not available, is there anyway to get scope and accessories here in Kuwait, May I know it’s price ( 2channel and 4 channel)
Hi, sorry I am not sure how you can buy in Kuwait. Some retailers may offer international shipping. Maybe try direct with Pico? The 2204A can be bought from $100. The 4 channel versions from $300. Thanks for watching! 👍
At 1.02 you were explaining why the (way too short)ground lead wouldn't be in an automotive kit and the video appeared edited at that point.
Would you believe you were explaining just what I wanted to know and planned to ask at some point on your site?
What can be done with a lead like that? Make up an extension wire with alligator clips?
What is different in the automotive kit?
Hi, these leads are generic electronic testing leads. Engineers use them on small components (like ECUs) where that size lead is fine. The automotive lead has much more length, so you could connect on the battery ground, then probe on the other side of the engine bay with the positive lead. You could knock some sort of extension up, or just buy a cheap Hantek automotive scope lead (see my review video 😃)
@@MechanicMindset Thanks ole chap. Just couldn't understand how that short lead could make it to different ground points on the vehicles but now I see it is intended for other applications.
Very nice channel by the way.
You have a knack for posting material that persons new to the trade are just about to search for!
Wish you much success for your efforts.
Hi , any ideea if this attenuator will fit snap on osciloscope and i dont get something on my Modis osciloscope spec says 100mV -400v but dont measure greater than 75VDC .....So im not sure if its safe or not .... Thanks
I’ve only had a quick go with a snap on scope before, not sure about the voltage. It could have 400v over voltage protection (my scope is 20v max with 100v protection).
I think if you buy or make an adapter (4mm banana to BNC you might be able to connect it up somehow - might be a bit of a faff! 👍
With PICO2204A and Hantek 20X attenuator, still 400V only, we would NOT want to do ignition testing?
Strictly speaking, primary ignition spike would exceed 400V. Although this does attenuate the maximum input V protection of the oscilloscope which is 100V > 2000V. I’ve done quite a bit with mine and no issues. There are no issues what so ever using secondary clamp or COP probe
Cool, that could make sense too as normally semiconductors x 3 times voltages are used in the PCB. Thanks for sharing your valuable experiences. @@MechanicMindset
I'm new to scopes, and this may be a dumb question, but why would you need to buy/use an extra attenuator between the scope and probe when the probes already do attenuation by 10x or 100x? Or are those extra attenuators really just meant to be used when your using probes that don't have attenuation switches built-in?
Hi, good question; exactly that. the automotive leads I am using (and used by most) don’t have any attenuation switch. The leads with the switch aren’t great for automotive use. But if you want, you could use those x10 probes, just can’t really add accessories like back pins or clips 👍
@@MechanicMindset oh ok, thanks!
Maybe a bit late. But what are the downsides of using the attenuator for everything? Like if the Volts you are measuring are already at 5 Volts. And also if you use the 10X probe with the 20X attenuator couldn't you use the scoop up till 4000V?
I suppose you might loose a bit of accuracy.
Pairing them together, theoretically yes you could measure much high voltages. Although this is not recommended for safety. For high voltages a differential probe is required 👍
I appreciate the shout out, Darren:)
I recommend the updated version of 4x attenuator found here:
czcams.com/video/CoH1s9XZVAI/video.html
Cheers for the insights Denis. I’ve updates the link 👍
Please kindly explain Pico software in laptop display some options like measurement options, trigger option, addvance some futures one'thing I'm say to proudly u r videos my learning skills is very improved thank you ....
Great to hear! Thanks for the content suggestions. I will get to it all eventually. Thanks! 👍
Hey, Darren. When you put the attenuator without letting the software know, it brings the 20v down to 6mv, and when you let the software know that you are using it brings the voltage up to 12v. Why is that?
It brings 12V down to 6mV. It’s a 20:1 attenuator so 12 divided by 20 = 0.6
Changing the probe allows the software to convert 6mV back to 12. Hope that helps
@@MechanicMindset It sure does! Just trying to use my 2204A picoscope better because I don't feel like buying a high end oscilloscope.
hi. what happens if we put two attenuators in series?
I’ve never tried it! But I think it should attenuate by that factor again.
and another ambiguity. is the oscilloscope calibrated only once? or at the beginning of each work session? Thanks for the reply.
Can you test a 48v battery pack lead acid & lithium
With the attenuator added? I’d say so, yes 👍 Just don’t make any shorts; 48V is a bit more dramatic than 12B 😬
That don’t look like injector way form on your attenuator setting ?
Hi, this is a solenoid type direct injection diesel injector; not your normal 12V petrol port injector 👍
Sir, unfortunately, I didn't use Attenuator for once with my Maxiscope MP408 while measuring signals of an injector on a car for Few minutes. But the thing is that, the waveforms didn't look like yours, anyway can that damage my A channel. If it is so, then how can I identify that? Help me please
Hi, I think it should be ok. I have done this before also. If it is damaged you might not get a signal or the signal will not be as expected. You can compare to another channel if you think there is a problem 👍
@@MechanicMindset Thanks a lot for your help. Btw should I set on AC voltage when I measure the All of Sensors of cars by both multimeter and scope??
@@orkhansafarli5992 Set to DC for most sensors. Only need AC for inductive type sensors sometimes used on crank/cam on older vehicles
I was on pico automotive forum and it was said that unless you buy a Scope designed to run there pico automotive software all other scopes would be useless for automotive. I have the 4424a is this one also useless for automotive? I mean you are using a 2000 series scope? Why would they make such a statement at Pico automotive? They have Guided Tests so all you have to do it click on a test and it sets your scope up for you, I guess they think were to stupid to learn how to actually use and set up the scope ourselves.
Whoops! This has nothing to do with electric guitars.
Different kind of attenuator 🤣
That is not a correct way form injector look like .
Hi, this is a direct injection diesel injector, very different to a normal port petrol injector
hello, this is very important information that I need, I'm going to start learning English
Pavel, we have an online learning website. It currently costs $10 USD per month. We add language subtitles too! What is your home language?
Also if you watch on a laptop, I think you can get automatic translation?
@@MechanicMindset hello, sorry for the delay, my language is Czech, I have a laptop
@@pavel7311 Ah ok, we don’t have Czech in the list. You can see the translation list on the website 👍
@@MechanicMindset I suspected that you wouldn't have Czech, it's a shame, and would you recommend Picoscope 2204A rather than Hantek 6022BE?
@@pavel7311 I had 6022be first and hardly used it. I like the Pico software much better, but the Hantek still has good specs