Diagnosing one of the most unreliable engines of all time | Rover 25 restoration
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2021
- Once sat abandoned in a military barracks in Scotland, Mike's first car is now deep into its full restoration. In this episode, we focus on the notorious Rover K Series engine and what makes it one of the most unreliable powertrains ever made.
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Watch episode 1 here: • Rescuing my abandoned ... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I just got a rover 45 automatic. Its 21 years old but drives like new. Inside it's nice and everything works. I love it.
The K-series was very ahead of it's time, nice to see the Pro's mention this.
It was a shame we never got to see the Rover K series engine fully developed because it had a lot of potential. It's only been in the modding scene where the engine has reached new hights making big power figures.
I was of the understanding that it was a Honda engine essentially, that's what used to be the talk of the day back when they were on the road, "get the K series it's faster" lol
@@79RockShox Think it is a honda k series, mg rover were in bed with honda at the time. EDIT: Honda derived not built
@@79RockShox iirc Honda actually copied the rover k series but couldnt get it to the same weight. The rover engine is significantly lower weight to what Honda achieved.
Actually after quick research very different engines
@@PatrickStuart2012 You're spot on. Rover K-series are marvelous engines. 18K4K: 1.8 l, less than 100 kg with clutch, flywheel, fluids and the like, 160 bhp, super rev happy and smooth engine (when warm). Got a 2004, has done over 250.000 km and still going strong. Bolt through design straight from F1, full alloy block, continually variable valve system on the intake. Doesn't consume a lot of fuel either. When built right they last forever even under high stress. I still regularly redline the engine and it is 100% stock. Still has its power too. The only thing a Honda K-Series has over the Rover K-series are the roller cams. All other aspects the Rover K-series is better.
@@79RockShox no, all british design, paid for by british government
Interesting video, thank you.
I believe, heard directly from one of the k-series design engineers, that the head gasket issue was specifically caused by a "cost down" resourcing of the HG when BMW took control. The new supplier did not match the spec requirement for the raised rubber water jacket sealing. This changed the load paths as the cyl hd was compressed on to the block and liners. Reduced pressure on the fire ring resulted in combustion pressure leaking into the coolant passages.
Early Ks did not suffer the extent of HGF the engine is noted for and neither did later ones after problem identified and fixed
This makes perfect sense, old k series are pretty bullet proof
Makes sense as they had already got their hands on the "Jewel new Mini"
@@samuelpearce1702 i had a 214sei as my first car with a 1.4 k series. Honestly it was rock solid, had a rover 25 and it did suffer with HGF and sometimes would cut out when warm and backfire then retsart perfect
I worked as a mechanic for rover when these engines came out. It was nearly unheard of for a 1.4 production engine to produce over 100bhp at that time unlike today .I have worked on hundreds of these over the years and they are brilliant. bar the head gasket and cracked liners on the 1.8 they are bomb proof and I have virtually never seen one blow it's bottom end without oil contamination..
not sure, but i think Honda was making naturally aspirated 1.4 litre engines in the mid-late 80s that made around 100hp.
@@TheWolvesCurse nope...
About the same era Alfa romeo was making the 1.4 twin spark 105hp…
Love this engine, had a 1.1 metro, 1.4 rover 200 & 2x ZR 160. Incredible fun, personally I had 3 gaskets go BUT I'd own another one in a heartbeat if I didn't need to commute to work
@@TheWolvesCurse
No they weren't.
My first project as a manufacturing engineer for Rover Group Powertrain in 1995, was to install & commission a K Series engine assembly line in East Works, Longbridge. Sadly there is now a housing estate where East Works used to be.
Who knew the company would be dead less than 10 years later. All that money on a new production line for it to be used for only the second half of this engines lifespan.
K-series is a great engine. So light perfect for a caterham. I have a 1.8 VHPD variant with 220bhp. Awesome revvy engine.
Nice. My VHPD is stuck in the back of the garage with a duff fuel pump. Green with a yellow nose cone and flared wings prisoner style. Love the way it sounds and goes and it’s pre SVA self build so no cat needed. Need to pull the tank out and change the pump but got too much else on my plate at the moment.
Once back on the road I suspect a trip up to DVA Power if he’s still in the business. Upgraditius at its best.
I Love my 160 k series in my metro
Rover engines were incredibly advanced for the time, which is why they also run perfect on e10 fuel
What variant is yours? I have one of the 12 PTP Evo 220 motors, but its been further developed more recently.I agree it's the lightness that makes so much difference....the Caterham is able to maximise its handling without a heavy engine.
I could watch this type of videos all day long everyday. Please make more of these diagnosing engines videos :) My first car being a suzuki baleno wagon 1,6 gasoline awd, still running daily with a little touchè of smoke coming from the exhaust these days.
Really enjoying this rebuild, it's fascinating just watching the engine being pulled apart and the little bit of body work at the end. It would be great to see the full whole process from end to end.
I had a white rover 214GSI on a G plate for my firs car, 21 years ago, followed by a red 214SI when I rolled the white one 👎🏻 Then a 620GSI with a Honda single cam, then to end my Rover ownership journey, a massively underated Rover 220 coupé Turbo. Didn't have head gasket issues with the K series, the T series did, but only after a coolant hose let go and peed it's coolant against the bulk head, no steam, just a unhealthy temperature gauge! It got rebuild, triple layer head gasket, upped the boost, never had an issue with it, think it's still on the road! 💪🏻
My first car? A brand new Oldsmobile Cutlass S two door. I put 121,000 miles (just shy of 195,000 kilometers) and sold it to a friend’s father who used it as a fishing car and he put another 95,000 miles (about 153,000 kilometers) on it before it went to the crusher. I changed the normal things out myself, light bulbs, windshield wipers, 2 water pumps, several transmission services, brakes, the normal things. I loved that car. It did me well and never left me walking.
The engine was a 350 cubic inch (5.7 liter) V8 with a Holley 4 barrel and a turbo-hydromatic 350 transmission 3 speed with a final lock up. To say it would haul the mail would be an understatement. I bought it in 1971. Detroit heavy iron that could cruise all day.
I've just passed my test so I'm living with my first car now. It's a Ford Fiesta 2006 1.25 zetec. I bought it for £200 from my auntie and it's been a fantastic car. It's been my gateway into learning how to fix things. I've already done am oil change and air filter and I'm currently in the process of respraying the rear bumper. It's really simple car to work on. Although the body is looking tired the engine is sweet as a nut and loves to rev. It only has 70 odd horsepower but it still feels quick and the gear changes are nice and smooth. I've named him Filbert the fiesta and I love him dearly.
Forget that it's a Rover; this is a great video for anyone interested in engines period. Blown head gasket issues and symptoms are pretty universal. This could just as easily be a Honda, Nissan - pretty much anything.
The 'growth' on the water pump is just degraded glycol. Shows why you should change the coolant every 2 years or so.
it also indicates the wrong kins of coolant is being used. Antifreeze isn't antifreeze isn't antifreeze (MEG vs PYG vs OAT vs HOAT vs P-HOAT vs SI-HOAT vs waterless, etc)
This past Saturday for the first time in 4.5 years the 1.8 VVC engine in my ZR 160 fired up. I started the project of rebuilding the engine 4.5 years ago but got overwhelmed after stripping the engine apart and let it sit. I owe so much to my mate that helped me at various intervals this year to rebuild the engine, including the VVC mechanism and cant wait to add the final touches to make her road worthy once again.
in the late 90s i had to rebuild the vvc cams from scratch once, the apprentice took them all apart to do a head gasket, he definately didnt do that again....
bravo to your mate, they aint an easy rebuild.
PS - was your fuelpump not stuck?
I guess i was lucky with mine; had a 214si for 3yrs without fault and then an mg zr for 2yrs with no problems. Loved both
Wonderfully ingenious engine ruined by accountants. One of the simplest problems (and cheapest to fix with a steel replacement) was that many of them had plastic dowels locating the head to the block. These allowed the head to "squirm" on the block which did no favours at all to the head gasket. All to save 2p. It used to make me smile that the bearings were graded to a couple of tenths to match the block and the crank perfectly - the only problem with this was that I once measured the main housings on a brand new block (yes the entire sandwich including the head had been assembled and torqued) and they were .003" out of round. Oh, I almost forgot. We were forever having to machine either the block face to get enough liner protrusion, or the liners in order to get the protrusion the same for all four. All of this could have been dealt with if a little more care had been taken. In my experience, it generally costs around ten times more to fix a problem than to make things correct in the first place.
Hi Roger, I was taught that dowels are only for location during assembly. This is the reason polymer dowels are common on vehicles today. Shear loads should be taken by the bolted joint friction. Any time the shear force overcomes the joint friction, the bolt tension is lost and the joint failed. I suspect the steel dowels is a work around that makes a poor design of bolted joint more robust. Perhaps ‘head squirm ‘ was due to the gasket having low stiffness in shear ? That would explain the fix? I can feel the (DRE) Design Responsible Engineer’s pain!
This guy’s knowledge and experience is irreplaceable and (years from now) when he passes away it’s gone. There is a lot of that happening everywhere. Cheers from California !
Bit dark that
@@Carlst17 Especially with the "cheers" at the end
Chill
Agreed, skills and knowledge like this are really being lost, particularly in the UK. Sad times.
@@volvos60bloke I have to disagree i'm sorry. There are some of us youngsters tutting at the misinformation in this video, and many things not even mentioned regarding the K series.
Not that I ever thought Mike was bad as a presenter or anything but I have been really impressed with him lately. He's absolutely fantastic to watch imo
My first car was a hand me down from my mom, former family minivan, a Dodge Grand Caravan. And when the transition dropped on it again, we just bid it fair well, not worth fixing at all.
But I am totally stoked you’re fixing your car to then donate it for auction to support your military. Such an awesome cause, they don’t get the admiration they deserve, regardless of the country they serve. So thank you for the content, and for giving back to the military.
They are tough, reliable and ridiculously efficient engines with one fundamental, but now easily fixed weakness.
I have owned 5 different rovers with k series engines and it was hit and miss.
My rover 25 1.4 was the most unreliable and it really was unreliable, always breaking. But the head didn't blow.
The most reliable was my rover 200brm but the only thing that went on it was the head gasket.
100% Agree. It takes a couple of hours to change a HG the engines are amazing. The 160VVC being the highest output 4cyl N/A engine rover ever produced
Regardless if you fit a mls headgasket they're still fundamentally flawed by being an open deck block, which is also why they aren't a tough engine.
@@benwilliams1298 Couple of hours?
@@matthewking5612 yes. Ive changed a cylinder head in 2hrs between races
@9:50
"using a gun on a head bolt was how it was built"
Yeah you are right, but you forgot to say that they used a purpose built and calibrated "gun" and not a wheel nut max-torque impact gun.
yeah, seen those machines in real life, biggest mistake is dropping the bolt in, it takes the alloy threads out due to their weight + height they drop from
Absolutely. On the Rover engine assembly line all those engine bolts were tightened up simultaneously to the right torque. Spreading the loading evenly across the cylinder head. No chance of warping. Not one at a time with a wheel nut gun. I wasn’t very impressed when he mentioned that.
When removing the bolts from a cold engine the sequence of removal does not matter.
@@philipmcmurtry4629 not when the engine is f***ed anyway -will need a skim minimum
Those "guns" as they're being called are known as "nut runners" .. typically manufactured by Bosch.
'Arte et Marte' at the rear - as usual! Great video.
Its is incredibly calming to watch a Scot and Brummie dismantle an old Rover engine.
Shame Fred Dibnah couldn't have been there too.
My first car was a 1969 El Camino, who's previous owner was accepted to the Naval Academy. Added the High School kid prerequisites: Cragar rims, glass pack mufflers and a CB radio.
Had plenty of these K Series engines in Rovers/MGs and only ever failed when I started interfering! Lol, great vid 👌
I had one that failed because I interfered with the engine by driving the car
The owners of K-Series engine cars are usually the unlucky ones. Unlucky for failing to "interfere" with their cars as recommended by ALL manufactures. Those are the real failures by not doing those necessary regular checks. Failure to do so can lead to serious engine issues or worse, serious safety issues.
Anyway, my car is German, Japanese, French etc and those are so reliable no need for any checks.
Now you tell me - I just bought a 1.8 TF (arrived today) based on your tinkering/interfering videos that I have binge watched a few times this week ;)
Still own my first car. 1998 ram 1500 single cab short bed. I've had it 8 years now. Got it at 16 with help from my grandmother and fixed it up. Put about 35,000 on it since I got it. It has 210,000+ miles now. Drove it to maine last year from NJ and it was perfect. Love my truck and never gonna get rid of it. Never payed back gram all the way so keep it running for her, since It still is hers in my head lol
My mum's early Freelander crapped itself very early but that was a 1.8 in a heavier AWD vehicle, she never had a problem with a 214 cabriolet, my grandpa never had a problem with 2 R8s, I later owned 2 MG ZSs and never had a problem, one had a leak from a thermostat so I nursed it home topping up with water, replaced the part and no further damage caused. Absolutely brilliant engine from an engineering perspective and the fixes are now plentiful and cheap if a problem occurs. My 1.6 ZS could get 50mpg cruising gently on the motorway. Very very efficient.
The K series is a great engine. The headgaskets usually only need to be done once if repaired properly and after that it's a super solid engine. Also most MG rover specialists can do a headgasket for the price of an average Cambelt change on another car
My part owned K series is on it's 3rd head gasket. First one incl skim was done by a Rover dealer! 2nd one, the previous owner didn't replace all the other parts for some reason...... 3rd one was done by someone known in MG circles, & thankfully has been fine so far.
K series can be a great engine!
Even cheaper in some cases, the actual modified gasket is cheap, the most expensive bit is the skim, even that though can be done fairly cheap if you find the right place. Its mostly labour.
Generally you want to avoid like the plague skimming the heads on these. The hardened layer is removed to reveal nice 'soft' alloy which the fire rings will happily dig into. If the head is warped then you've got little choice but it definitely needs hardening before refitting.
This is why a large number of these fail after being fixed, because people and garages skim them.
As someone with a K series in his Lotus, I can tell you the head gaskets go on those as well. The Lotus forums give this topic a lot of focus and Lotus owners invest in things like electronic water pumps, opening water ways in the heads etc, as well as other things.
It's not a lotus bro
@@danmasters3745 he mentions early in the video that the ones they fitted to Lotus cars didn’t have head gasket issues… they do. Same engine in the S1 and early S2 Elise.
tbh he also claims that the mls gasket is the cure for the engine. the mls is not a proper fix... there are many other things you have to determine about the engine before you choose what gasket you use.
@@dahotrod1533 yep. Also needs to check the cylinder heights to make sure they are proud of the top of the bloke, replacing the head dowels with metal ones, making sure the head hasn’t gone soft round the firing rings on the exhaust side of the head. And never turn the crank while the cylinder liners are not secured down or they could lift.
@@TomEnduro Warped mating surfaces...Checking for straightness, decking the head, metal dowels, removing the waterflow restrictor, sodium filled valves next, experiment with different gaskets, new stretchbolts. A NA engine holds up better than the supercharged ones. 120hp were really enough to drive rings around 911, F, and other trucks.
I guess you still wanna hear our stories about our first cars, so here is mine. My first car was a 1998 Volkswagen Golf MK IV, with the AEH 1.6l 8V petrol engine from VAGs EA827-family. I actually still own it, though it sits in storage, collecting dust along with various pieces of old furniture and disassembled engines. I got it about a month before I turned 18 and was to take my driving test. It was, as many of you also have said about your own first cars, the gateway to my first driving freedom, and it was the car in which I started my journey to become a passionate hobby mechanic. In my early years of driving, I was a picturesque boy racer, zipping around the county at night, and the Golf was always my trusty companion and partner in crime (quite literally on some occasions, as I was pulled over for speeding a couple of times with that car).
I absolutely loved the revvy little 1.6 liter petrol engine, and I still do. It withstood my brutal driving style with ease, as I squeezed out every horsepower of it without any complaints. My only issue with it was that cylinder 4 had an appetite for spark plug wires, and me failing to replace it in time once got me in some trouble with it running on three cylinders, burning the fourth cylinder's unburnt fuel in the exhaust, which led to it melting the insides of the cat. Luckily, the engine, as always, didn't take any damage, and it lived to see another day. The old-school layout of the engine (its fundamental design dates all the way back to the 1970s) made it an unbelievably reliable engine, due to its simplicity. By just listening to it, you can hear its similarities to engines from the 1970s and 80s, and I swear by these engines to this day. My car today is a 2005 Audi A3 8P1, with one of the last versions of the EA827's, the (non-spark-plug-wire-eating) BGU 1.6.
Anyway, I will never forget the times I've had in my Mk4 Golf, it will forever stay in my heart.
Genuinely, really liked watching this episode. Watching the engine getting stripped and discussing why the K series engine was revolutionary but flawed, I was just glued to it.
Same here !
Delicious gloopy k series. Had 3 k series engines in two mgfs and one freelander in the past. Only one blew up. 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.
Don’t know what’s worse, the engines or your choice in cars
Here I am with my Chevy 4.3 liter v6 with 260000 miles on it running strong lol poor brits
The 'only 1 blew up' isn't very reassuring. I've never had an engine blow up on me out of any of the numerous cars I've had or countless work vans I've e had 😂
I done head casket at 50k then 75k on mgtf, then went to VW and never had a problem since 👌
@@samholdsworth3957 Well yeah but that 4.3 liter isn’t making any power for its size, meanwhile I got a naturally aspirated engine making 95hp/liter which can still be incredibly economical
I find watching stuff like this fascinating and relaxing. The knowledge and skill Mad Ford Man has is astonishing
Huge respect to you 👍👍👍
Everyone asks for comments - you are the first one to actually recognise the people that write in
My first car was a Peugeot 205 1.1 Junior in flat red. The driver seat back support was broken, but it still had 6 months MoT, so I put two pieces of wood in the seat back material to hold it up but it would randomly collapse and my seat back would flop backwards on to the rear seats. I paid 150 quid for the car. I sold it to a toe rag for 150 quid and made him sign a receipt. 2wks after the sale I got a bill from a recovery company for a few hundred quid. I called them up and explained I had sold it, sent them the receipt and never heard from them again. I enjoyed my time in that car, but I don't have fond memories of it. It was just a stepping stone for me.
I had no problems with mine and had mgzr for 6 and half years, one of the most reliable cars I owned.
Superb revvy little engines, way ahead of their time. I remember outrunning a 2.0 MK3 Golf GTi in a Rover 214 SEi.
The golf obviously wasn't racing lol
Thanks guys, this was fascinating. I’ve read quite a bit about the K-series engine here in the USA, but had never seen one torn down. You have a new subscriber!
So not my first car, but the first vehicle I have memories of as a child. In 1993 my grandpa bought a Nissan D21 Hardbody pickup, extended cab, 2wd, manual. I was born in 95 and I have memories of riding around in that little truck all throughout my childhood. I used to go on dump runs (I think you brits call it the tip) with him in it, go to the stonework shop to get stone for his yard, he would take me to those things at home depot where they would teach kids how to build wood projects like birdhouses and stuff. I got ownership of the truck back in 2016, and last December while I was driving it, someone ran a red light as I was coming through an intersection and I t-boned them. So the truck is now in several pieces in my garage as I am putting a new front end on it.
It does look like a nicely engineered engine with decent hardware, so a shame they were penny pinching on the head gasket.
You can blame bmw for that.
Accountants did it
Terms I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime:
1) Funky fresh piston
my first car was a MG ZR 1.4 i had a lot of fun with it but it died in the snow someone crashed their car in my mg now i own a 6n2 polo gti but it died because my distrubution snapped and im now looking for a MG ZR 1.8 that car means a lot to me you are a true hero for restoring this car
This might be the best and most informative - superbly produced motor article I have seen in 10 odd years of watching YT videos - nice one!! I have steered away from the Rover K Seies powered Elises but maybe not now? Thanks very much!
Number one rule of the k series. Don’t turn the engine over with the head off. Liners become dislocated and damage to the crank bearings can be done because without the torque of the head bolts the crankcase bearing isn’t circular. Hope to see the liners resealed in the next episode for a proper job!
The K-Series was a great design. More powerful, smoother, more economic and cleaner than contemporary rivals. Miles better than the gutless Ford Zetec engines. I had an early one and yes, it had the head gasket problem, but this was fixed and it was smooth sailing. Rover and Honda just pinched pennies.
Plastics aliment pins ? And gee they had problems
Honda don't use the k-series
@@cheeselouise no but if an engine destined for the Honda Civic failed quality inspection, it was sent to Rover for use in the 200 series
@@gordongate if that’s true, scared to think what quality level the polonez got…
The zetec engine is far from gutless don't know where you get that from and the k series does not come close to the reliability of the zetec.
Me, 18 years old and had a 1965 Hillman Minx Series V, loved that car, best part was the crank handle, great for those times when it had a flat battery or those times when the tappets needed adjusting (often).
Nice to see the REME flag in the workshop, makes an old RAEME bloke feel proud.
Great video Mike.
Great video, still got my first car. Have had it for over 30 years. Doing a very slow rebuild of it at the moment.
Thanks that was a fascinating teardown. I imagine that the Rover engineers who designed the engine were probably hugely frustrated. On the one hand they've created something excellent with the block and head bolt design only to then see one cheap part ruin the reputation of their work.
A few cheap parts...
Designed by world class Engineers, but manufactured to Accountants spreadsheets. You see it in companies throughout the UK.
@@scottishbob Happened to Porsche & Merc as well, with predictable results.
Yeap, too many companies have the "Department of where can we skimp out to make more money". I am in to music gear and Fender is an excellent example on their lower priced amps. Usually great designs and then they use - quite frankly - useless parts from a certain Asian country, huge as an elephant. Them amps usually ends up in a landfill after a few years. Many are hardly even possible to fix.
That IS a killer of reputations right there.
10:31
How long do you want your Head bolts to be?
Rover: Yes
you sound like an old friend of mine lol
@@TheWelder624 are you an Ipswich supporter
@@stefanpuszka8173 ?
Best part of this video is that little parts organiser for the head components. How have I not seen one of those before! :D
My first car: 1980 Ford Thunderbird "Herritage" edition. It wasn't small, it wasn't sporty in any measurable sense of the word, but my goodness, it was comfortable! The car had really impressive tech for it's day; keyless entry, automatic headlights, a digital stereo with a built-in amp, power-everything, 8-way adjustable power drivers seat with lumbar support, cruise control, etc. Engine was a Ford 302 (5.0L) with a 2bbl carburetor, paired with a 4 speed automatic with overdrive. I bought it used in 1998. The seat was like a lazy-boy chair; ultra comfortable to the point of being dangerous because on any long trip, that seat coupled with the fact it just floated down the road meant it was a little _too_ comfortable. When I finally got a decent job, I had planned to fully restore it when it was destroyed by a car-fire next to it in the apartment lot of the apartment we had at the time. So... sadly, this car is long gone, but never forgotten.
Had a Rover 200 Vi with the 1.8vvc - brilliant torquey, revy and fuel efficiency engine. 1x HGF which I did with steel dowels.
My 2nd car was a rover coupe vvc, loved that car, everything worked even the AC. although it wasn't a power house it have more power than the front wheels could handle, but was very predictable, wish I still had it.
@@jamesthomas8308 My mate had the Coupe Turbo - which was MORE power than the chassis could handle! The VVC was a sweet spot I think.
"one of most unreliable engines of all time"
What a lot of spherical things! Yes they pop more HGs than average but once done properly they are fine, we have 3 MG TFs, done in total around 280K miles, 2 have had one HG done many years ago, the other one has never been touched.
you sound like you know a lot of this stuff.
May i ask: I heard him say this: significantly reducing frictional losses in the engine.
It was about the oil that is going in.
Roughly at 14:30 he says something like that.
What does that mean?
That the oil causes more friction?
@@bertjesklotepino Some engine oils contain friction modifiers which, according to the Australian oil company Penrite are:
"Used to reduce internal engine friction and are common in low viscosity oils where fuel economy is important. They affect the frictional properties between two rubbing surfaces to prevent scoring, reduce wear and noise.
"They are commonly used in gasoline engine oils, and are added to fluids for automatic and manual transmissions, tractor hydraulic systems, power steering, shock absorbers, and metal working applications. In automatic transmission fluids and limited-slip axle lubricants, friction modifiers control torque application through clutch and band engagements.
"Friction modifiers can compete with anti-wear agents at high temperatures and with corrosion and rust inhibitors at low temperatures."
They must not be used in some applications however, such as vehicles with wet clutches (normally motorcycles) as they can cause the clutch to slip. It's not new technology, but to see it in a 10W-40 grade oil is unusual, because normally friction modifiers are used in low viscosity oils (e.g. 0W-20 or 5W-30) where the manufacturer places high importance on fuel economy.
@Capt Shiny Yes its undeniable they had an issue but to describe it as "one of most unreliable engines of all time" is nonsense, primarily it had one fixable problem.
@Capt Shiny I have many more unreliable engines come through my garage. The K series being one of the most reliable. Out of all the jobs I do to all the MG Rovers that come through my door, engine work (apart from servicing, timing belts etc) is few and far between.
my zr has been through 11 owners, 105k miles and sitting in a used car yard for over a year
and yet it runs well, never fails to start and only leaks a little bit of coolant from the radiator ;)
it drove me the 2 miles from where it sat to my house without boiling itself to death
My first car was a k reg Austin 1100 Mk3, orange coloured with multiple rust highlighting and had a highly perforated floor that was more hole than steel. Cost me £200 in 1985.
I loved that car and the freedom that came with it. Gave it away to a friend when I bought a Morris 1300 Mk2 that was a garage find by my uncle, who sealed everywhere underneath with Finnegan's Waxoil and let me have it for £250. A beautiful midnight blue and it drove like a dream. Unfortunately it got written off the week before I went to uni.
My first car was a 1984 Ford Tempo GL sedan, pitched in period Ford commercials by none other than Jackie Stewart, himself. My grandmother bought it years before, and I scraped it against the house many times backing it down the driveway for her before I was of age to legally drive. I’d park my bicycle in the garage next to it and sometimes scratch the front fenders. It was originally silver, but I picked seafoam green for the eventual respray. As she aged, she’d sometimes turn the wrong way down a one-way street or into the wrong end of a fast food drive-thru on our way to the movies. She stopped driving at the same time I started, so she gave me the 15 year-old car for free because it would have cost more to scrap. I had it for a summer before the rear brakes disintegrated, the water pump failed, the interior door handle spring broke, and the fuel filler neck developed cracks that caused it to leak like crazy. The headliner fell from the ceiling and actually lined my head as I drove. The 2-speaker AM-only radio (no cassette) crackled and popped as much as it played music. The 3-speed automatic shifted awkwardly enough to give you whiplash. It left me stranded many times, but it took my friends and me to concerts. I used it to move out of my mother’s house to live with my grandmother, as well, and I’d use it to take her on scenic Sunday drives in the Columbia River Gorge. Homophobes razor-bladed my windows and keyed the sides in the high school parking lot, too. I loved my next car (an orange 1976 AMC Gremlin) much more than this one, but this was the car I first filled the tank with my own money. This was my first taste of 84 horsepower, 1-barrel carburetor, front-wheel-drive freedom. It was still so special to me.
They absolutely are a problem on Lotus variants. I owned an S1 Elise for 10 years and was a member of various lotus forums. Very common problem and there was lots of advice about modifications and upgrades to avoid it in future.
I've had a couple of Lotus with a K Series, fantastic engine, very light and great power delivery when paired with an Elise. Had HGF on my current VVC unit, no big issue really. Once fixed propely and the engine isn't overly tuned it should be very reliable. Mine was rectified as part of a C service so not much additional cost. In the grand scheme of ownership costs it's quite insignificant, especially compared with engines that suffer bore score etc. Great little engines
Probably the most sense I've heard spoken about these engines. Properly sorted they are brilliant
Thanks, Mike, this was the best video posted here. Full of information, loved it.
My first ever car was MG ZR 160 4 door. That was the car that taught me everything about working on cars/engines. Now I do it for the living. I bought the car for €1000 with a blown headgasket, after the restoration and working on it step by step while learning for 4 years sold it for €2500. Because of that car I get paid 100k a year now, It will ALWAYS have a place in my heart.
Are you serious? Any car I've driven with a K Series engine was absolutely brilliant.
YO i love my 54 plate 18 freelander .head gasket done ...shes smooth ,cars heavy but can still pull well ....let the haters hate
Rover make a little different vi
Say that to the person who bought it from you.
Re Built hundreds of these, from the 1.2, up to the 1.8, including the variable vale camber models, between anything from 3 to 5 a day, always the head gasket failure, this was under warranty returns, their not wrong, always head gasket, and plastic dowels in a cylinder head? Crazy!
Rover 75 1.8 non turbo, nice car, engine was a nightmare.
Had one of these as my first car. I still have the engine(1.8) - now rebuilt with forged pistons and rods......and a turbo. Will be dynoed soon and going in a mid engined hillman imp. These engines are actually very advanced and once you have put a decent head gasket in it and moved the thermostat to a sensible location they are solid engines.
dont forget yer bag of cement for under the bonnet, oh hold on, turbo'd, better just put some massive rads in there....
@@paulriggers1558 Lol its mid engined not rear so shud still go round corners
@@tomdavis5878seriously, how deep have you gone into heat management, at the factory they had both a turbocharged, and a kv6 engined mgf mules, but both were canned due to cooling issues. anything is possible, but sometimes it gets really tricky [expensive] to get rid of enough heat.
My first car was a 91 Honda Accord LX, 272k miles when I bought it from a charity car lot for $900(basically people donate cars to this place and they sell them). The whole bumper wasnt bolted down on one side and the entire front end was slightly bent, I bought new headlights, turn signals, tail lights, and with a piece of 2x4 and some hardware I bent the core support back and attached the bumper and got it straight. It needed a steering rack ($350), Windshield ($300) and exhaust (I went and got ebay stainless header and 2.5" stainless catback, $250). The paint wasnt great and it had some rust through to the trunk on the rear quarters, but it ran amazingly. The brakes were terrible, had a rear wheel cylinder go and had to learn to replace those and the line going to it, did pads on the front but never got to do rotors because they're captive behind the hubs and I didnt have the tools to remove them. Sold it to a guy for $650 after I put around about 50k on it, i told him to keep an eye on the oil if driving long distances (burned a quart every 3000 or so). and he didnt and totalled it within a month. Sad end, but it was a great car.
I own a 1997 k series Rover 216. Bought it new and drove it everyday til this day, and still has a lot of miles left to ride. I don't know what you mean with "one of the most unreliable engines...". Maybe you don't know much about this engine, but just a thought, go and ask previous Rover owner in any model and they will tell you the same thing, THEY ARE TRULY LOYAL to it's engineering, will never leave you stranded. Hope you change your mind! Best of luck!
Love how people seem to think it was only *ever* the K-series which had head gasket problems, because no other engine ever had such an issue /s
Was also waiting for the Halfords "expert" to come in and recommend K seal for a repair 😂
It was a self fulfilling prophecy too. The head gaskets rarely went on their own for no reason, there was usually a cause. But, once it started to get a reputation, that led to a lot of garages fixing the head gasket and giving it back to the customer without having sorted the root cause, meaning the head gasket failure would re-occur fairly shortly. Taking it back to the garage they would never say it was their repair but the engine had a reputation, further worsening the reputation.
That BB valve @ 3:00 is a little pain and often led to false HGF diagnosis when coolant changes failed to bleed. The valve does get blocked quite easily, I used a second coolant tank filled with water connected only to the return line to check for bubbles to make sure it was bleeding on refills and would blow water back through valve to clean it out.
Fixing any K-series properly and fixing the cause of the HGF properly should give many years of reliable service as long as routine maintenance is followed.
All the new cars I've had since 1980, about 24, never had a head gasket problem.
@@martintaper7997 Subaru's do though. Plenty of cars have had the same issues over the years, you just happen to have missed them
@@martintaper7997 or probably sold them before it happened. I have seen Honda, Nissan, Subaru 2.2 and 2.5, the WRX, BMW, Ford, Toyota Supra non turbo, Celica, Chevrolet, Ford, Mercedes.
@@mrcaboosevg6089 I've had many cars of many brands over the years so it's not that common - Honda, Mazda, Daihatsu, Ford, Subaru, Toyota, Hyundai, Mitsubishi.
Liner heights have to be perfect for a triple layer head gasket so it's not always best To fit
I'm losing faith in Mike being the genius he's been painted to be
Reads the title... Is this a video about K Series engines by any chance? .... yup. This video tuck me back to my mechanics apprenticeship. Did so many of these lol
I had a 1996 Rover 214 SEI in Knightfire Red. It had a rebuilt MG ZR engine, and a full stainless exhaust, sports suspension. I paid £150 for the car with a big dent in the door and short MOT. Bought a colour matched door for £30, ran it for 30k miles including a road trip across Europe as part of one of the first Crumball Rallys in 2007. Sold it for £300 with no MOT before I went to Uni.
Rover didn't cheap out on the head gasket, they saw into the future and tried to use water as the next fuel. 😄😋
Or as a piston cleaning agent
@@ricky107_ well it clearly worked so we can't blame 'em haha
Carbon build up cleaner
Steam powered rover, looking to the past to move into the future
Something enjoyable about engines being taking apart
Also watching an expert who can explain things clearly.
1936 Morris Eight Two Door . I still have the car and it runs beautifully .Mine since 1961 . 60 years . Where has the time gone ?
I heard the very same comment - changing the dowels to a better stronger version - back in 2006 when I had a head gasket repair done on 218is engine. The garage tech carrying out the work was also a performance specialist as another line of work so he knew his stuff.
I also owed a 414SLi and 200vi - all had great engines way ahead of what many other manufacturers could do like Ford, Vauxhall, most french or Italian engines of that size…. alas the 414 gasket went at 76k also, the Vi I sold at around 70k with the engine still ok.
The rover 25 and 45 with a k series engine were as reliable as any other car of the time if they were properly maintained and looked after
You mean „as unreliable as any British car ever made no matter how much money you throw at it“.
@@tomsommer8372 I know what I meant
@Andy Smythe how many rovers have you owned
hEaD gAsKeT
You had many k series i assume then? Because no matter how well you maintain them, they fail regardless on the head gasket because rover cheated out on it. The only proper maintenance you could do to sort it is replace the gasket
Reunit james with the citreon ami from Majorca!
I've seen that out and about driving round a few times where I live and again at Bicester heritage. Never taken note of the owner but I would expect James to have been back close to it a few times already given how many times I've seen it.
i was on the K engine design team for 5 years. Way ahead of its time. Easy to fault now but then, coming out of Rover it was a real triumph over travesty. Nice to see the bits i did in the video.
Man you gotta love the whole assembly neatly shown at 23:02 Beautiful Work! 👍
Unreliable???? I bought my rover 1.4 off my dad for £300, drove it for years, then drove it to Kazakhstan and left it there after doing 8500 miles in one month, total mileage, (185000) great little car.
Depends on the year. Late models had replaced the problematic dowels
@@jonnoMoto 93,
Nice anecdotes dont disprove the majority though.
So great you left it 👌
That great u left it
I mean, this engine may be unreliable, but have y'all ever seen a Cadillac "Northstar" V8? They put the starter under the intake, which would be fine if we where talkinga bout Toyota, who also did this on some of their V8's, but Toyota reliability this ain't. The Northstar engines had huge problems with blown head gaskets, often mechanically totallying the cars they came in.
Toyotas of the 90s had some pretty severe head gasket issues as well
the headgaskets werent the problem on northstars. the problem was weak aluminium and way to fine thread on the bolts. so expansion of the head would litterally shear the thread out of the block.
Deathstar 🙂.
They did fix it on later motors
Something Something Subaru EJ25 Non Turbo engines.
Have a extraordinary story: Owned a 1988 Mazda RX 7 FC Turbo from 1992 until 1998 as a daily. Canged one engine and one turbocharger. sold the car than and bought a Miata NA. Bought exact the same RX 7 back in 2016 . Restored it to showroom condition. Use it now as my sunday car here in Germany ...
This was a great watch! Interesting and relaxing. Mike is an excellent host and very likable.
Agreed, really knows his stuff. A joy to watch.
I thought cranking a K series over with the head off is a big no no as the liners can move?
it is
yes,liner can move damaging o rings
Yes it’s a big no no.
and the bottom end as well, damages main shells
possibly damages main bearings too...the liner orings will be replaced i guess anyway
25:09 That metro still exists on the DVLA so it hasn't had a certificate of destruction issued. Last logbook issued 19th september 1990, Tax due 1st may 1995, No MOT details held by DVLA
Same happened with my Subaru legacy, I scrapped it after an accident in 2017 as front left wheel was basically in the footwell... it still ran somehow, I then saw it early 2020 before the first lockdown being driven round a farm, looked like they'd pulled it mostly straight with a tractor and chain then used it for flying up and down hills, it was my first car so was made up to see her still going and being used 👌
That head gasket could have been the payen bw750 witch is an upgrade. especially with 10.9 tensile head bolts and strengthened oil rail. This combination with bw750 is best used when the liners are uneven.
Brings back memories changing a head gasket on a rover 75 1.8. Oh the fun trying to undo the crank bolt.
The K-series is not an unreliable engine. Like all engines, they need to be looked after properly My family has owned loads of them without a problem
They are notorius for blowing headgaskets.
@@asambi69 I heard they do go poopy in the lotus as well
Only if you reaplced the head gasket before it Blow's that is not normal service
I still drive mine MG ZS 1.8L TBH I bought it with a head gasket issue. After it was fixed 100k km and it is still no problem. Just changed antifreeze and water pump in recommended intervals.
Fantastic video. I really like the man working on the engine. Sometimes CZcams videos has a guy almost too corporate doing it but the guy helping here had knowledge, easy to talk to, interesting and had a warmer feeling of a video. Like you're involved in a car project with the 2 of them. Wonderful video peeps I can't wait to watch the others
That’s brilliant, looking forward to the next stage.
"One of the most unreliable engines of all time" utter bollocks. The k is a great engine other than the hgf, there are plenty of engines that suffer from it. They were revolutionary at the time, easy to work on, lightweight, rev well, warm up quick and can take thrashing when built well
Totally agree, it had a bad rep because of the hgf, but I’ve known many tuners over the years have had no issues once they have been sorted properly. It’s a great engine
Also totally agree, The K series was a great engine, my Dad had a rover 45 and kept carrying water to put in it for several years, then one day, I suddenly realised what the problem was and fixed it. Never had to carry water again and we got several more years out of it, literally driving it like a Golf until it rotted off the road.
This. Complete and utter tosh. They're a Land Rover headgasket away from rock solid reliability, and the early engines don't even need that it's only the 1.4/1.8 derivatives. I can think of a half dozen engines that have 'reliability' issues that are much more ingrained and harder to fix.
This problem is so widespread that there people say "hgf" and you instantly now what are they talking about.
@@FlakeDodge7 It's well known because they're common workaday engines that Joe Public has access to lots of.
It's also incredibly easily fixed. For a couple of hundred quid a chap will drive to your house and do it for you while you wait, and then you'll have a rock solid reliable engine. I don't think that parses with 'most unreliable engine ever'. For an engine to achieve that accolade, it needs to have multiple fundamental issues that are very difficult or expensive to fix.
Take, for instance, the Stag V8 (an engine that's also much maligned and not necessarily deserving of its reputation, but at least is much more deserving than the K-Series). For starters, the water pump is very high in the block meaning if there's a bit of a coolant leak water rather quickly stops circulating. Add onto that the slanted head studs, which means over repeated heat cycles the head shuffles about limiting headgasket life (and a fundamental aspect of the engine design that's not fixable without re-engineering the head). Add onto that production issues with casting sand being left in the waterways, and less than optimal port castings meaning they never really produced as much power as was hoped and you can start to see why the 'excellent other than a simply fixed headgasket' K-Series doesn't deserve its reputation in the slightest.
The k series is a weapon of an engine when you sort it. I've got a 160vvc, head gasket upgraded, kmaps ECU, performance filter, decat and stainless cat back. 180bhp at the wheels from a 20year old 1.8
26 years now mate, used to PDI 1.8 mgf's in early 95
In what car Tom
@@stefanpuszka8173 It's in a Trophy. Which is also pretty well sorted and wearing modern rubber. Mid engined, rear wheel drive 👍 red lines at 7500rpm really gets going above 5000
@@paulriggers1558 agreed but the early vvc's 143bhp standard
@@tom-dn8md was referring to engineering age of motor, and u are correct.
we once ordered an mgtf auto in trophy paint, woman came to collect new car, oh dear, she was looking at a bright yellow car, but she ordered trophy blue, not trophy yellow, - salesmen eh......
Had a VVC MGF years ago, yes HGF happened. Replaced the plastic dowells with aluminum ones and uprated gasket and the car was great. Very fast little car, economical and you could put the roof up or down without leaving the drivers seat in 10 seconds.
Well I still have my first car, got it pretty recently 😄 It's my grandpa Ford Puma mk1, it's very cool little car, she survived 2 accidents, about 10 years of sitting outside in the garden and absolutely no maintenance for last 3-4 years 😅 But finnaly I've started repairing it a few months ago, she already got all the suspension and engine service, new oils and filters, new breaks, now she's getting all the rusted elements replaced and still needs a gearbox repairs and also some electric issues fix. She makes me smile and I'm still planning to fit it with FRP body kit and give her new paint 😄 She cost me already about 2000€ for all the repairs but she's absolutely worth it 😊
I'm torn, I understand that swapping the shell means it's not the same car but the amount of rot and work required to remedy it and in the end the shell although perfectly fine, it's just a cut up shell, seems silly when there was a perfect shell right next to it, especially as you are not going to keep it, the sentimentality in the original car would mean something if you were keeping it. I'm all confused.
Although it’s never been used, that body shell is not technically “new”, therefore it cannot be used on a car without a Q-plate. It’s been on eBay for years!
You can replace 1 major component of any car and keep it’s originality. Check out Westfield sports cars MX-5 kit and the major component replaced is the chassis. It keeps its chassis number and MOT status and engine number etc.
When I was an apprentice mechanic the garage I worked in often “re-shelled” a damaged car if it was economically viable. Unfortunately labour costs mean many repairable vehicles end up as scrap.
Tbf the later k series were unreliable because of budget cuts, early ones are reliable
My 1st car meant so much to me. Freedom, fun & more. It was a red 1970 Chevrolet Impala Custom with a 5.7 liter (350ci) V8 engine and black interior. I loved that car and have missed since I was forced to sell it. I hope it was loved and cared for by its owner after me.
Getting into a workshop and picking the brains of someone that had such in depth knowledge is one of my favourite thing to do
Would hardly call the K series notoriously unreliable parents had 2 rover 214’s with K series in and never had a problem with them
The lucky one ;-) we had 6 rover 200 series over the period they were available, every one had a head gasket failure, one went after just 15k miles, needless to say we were all in on the warranty after the first one 😂😂
@@JustRupes nah I don’t think he was lucky… head gasket aside, pretty much nothing goes wrong. Original head gasket typically lasted between 50-80k miles (though I had one last 130k on a Rover 45) an up rated head gasket fitted properly should last for ever really.
Nah the stigma must be nonsense cause yours was OK lol
@@paddykelly9226 The original head gasket can indeed fail for no apparent reason. However that doesn’t make it an unreliable engine having one £3-400 bill in say 100k miles. Other cars are far worse. My neighbour 2013 VW Polo tsi has just had £5k spent on a new engine after the timing chain failed at 68k miles. Common problem apparently
@@JustRupes I'd be thinking it's more to do with your driving style than the engines fault after that many failures
It's a common misconception that it's the head gaskets that fail on these engines. What tends to fail is the cylinder head location dowels are made of plastic and these over time of hot and cold break up and cause the heads to move around. Lotus solved this by making the dowels from steel and these are what were fitted to the Elise and later Freelanders.
Correct. It's the locating dowels that snap over time.
They say it in the video
@@R4M_Tommy yea but a lot won't actually watch it.
My first car was a MG ZR160 Mk1 trophy blue, so you can guess what brought me here. Luckily I still own it, though it has been sitting in a garage for quite some time now and these episodes do trigger some motivation to get it back on the road again. Lovely to watch, as these cars get rarer by the day.
I had a 1984 Hyundai Pony, drove it the length and breadth of Canada and the USA over the next few years. It shook violently above 85 km/h, so I usually drove slow. Excellent fuel economy, most basic car you could imagine. Exceptional ground clearance compared to modern cars. Switches and stalks and knobs would snap off in your hand, but it would always start at -40. The floorpan was badly rusted and I replaced some of the panels with sturdy plywood. You could unlock the rear hatch with a spoon. I used a windshield scraper brush to hold up the hatch. In warm weather you had to drive with the cabin heater running to keep the engine from overheating.