Thanks for watching my video, something that I didn't explain properly, I am using a passive preamplifier so how the volume works on that is very different to a normal preamplifier, where you would likely never go near the maximum volume, the passive preamp is different.
Shibata profile was originally designed for ye old Quad records I think the CD4 variant from JVC the profile reaches to 45khz … you read that right … to track the ambient detail for Quad reproduction. It caught on as the hi frequency performance was top notch however remember it was designed for Quad reproduction not Stereo although it will do it. Marketing prevailed and the Shibata become THE one to have however there are issues with set up as noted…VTA/SRA etc. had a similar set up Issue with an Ortofon 2M Black which has a Shibata once “dailed in” great results though the 2M bronze ( nude fine line) seems less fussy. Best I’ve come across though is micro ridge as this is as close as possible to the cutting tools so wear is less an issue and reasonably not to fussy in set up! Great Video !!!
Listened to many TT set ups over the years including vacuum ones. At present Running a Technics SL1210G stock with a Dynavector XV1s phono is a Naim Superline/Supercap combo with a 453R loading plug!!.. Sounds bloody great!!..Giving my Linn stuff a test run…
When I got my first MC cart, I also underestimated how sensitive the phono stage is. I was getting a really annoying ticking sound, not very loud, but I could hear it in quiet segments. I took my whole system apart trying to figure out what it was, changed all my cables over and my mains cables, and finally asked a friend who worked at Audioquest, who then asked if I had any Homeplugs in the house for internet. I did, it was on the computer in another room, so I removed that, and the annoying ticking went away. I’ve since run a long Ethernet cable to that computer and the ticking sound never returned! The things you learn when playing with audio!
Primare R35 phono stage. Perfect for you. Has you are a hi-fi reviewer this world cater to all your needs. Load resistance and capacitance adjustable single end and balanced connections. Fine sounding phono stage . Primare R35 Perfect solution. You mentioned Primare brand to me in the comments. Still trying to sort my vinyl solution out but I'm getting there. Happy New year Terry.
A really great video & well thought out. After 40+ years in the industry most things regarding ground loops were known to me & ways to cure them. Mechanical feedback is a world all of its own applicable to every audio component. Then along came streamers....That's when the fun really starts....Now aged 71 I gave up on vinyl 20 years ago. Enjoy...
Terry ....Thanks for doing such an honest video!!!!! You are a brave man to bare your humanity to us all....and this is why I had decided to just super-tweek my digital/streaming/SACD/CD System. I am old ...and back in the 70's-80's I had a very high-end vinyl system w/MC Cartridge etc......and to my memory sounded INCREDIBLE...BUT........the sheer thought and the expense of getting into vinyl at this point with all of the variables, many of which you discuss here and there are many more... You did not even touch on such things like the variable nature of record pressings in and of themselves. There are just sooooo many variables... I am more obsessive in some ways in my old age and I have my system to a point that I just love the sound! TRULY......but opening the Pandora's Box of vinyl at this point is off the plate. My level of expectation would be so extreme as would the expense be as well, to get me there!!!!! So...your video was EXTREMELY useful to me, 😁 to keep the vinyl realm out of my universe...but something I can just postulate about and view from afar like an orbiting planet... with great interest! THANK YOU for helping to preserve my sanity!!!!! 👍
A lot of tonearms will measure higher when the cartridge higher off the platter. As the Ortofon measures closer to level of the record. The low-cost scales work fine but weight should always be measured at Stylus playback level or very close to it. I'm happy you are part of the Vinyl club now.
Hi Terry, I'm from Canada I think our electrical grid system here is probably better than the one in great Britain. I'm 68 years old and people have ask me to look into humming or buzzing that they have with their hi-fi system and 99% of the time it has been the ground wire. When i tell them it's the ground wire they alway's tell me it looks good to them. What i do is pull the ground wire while it is still connected and playing to the System if you hear the noise get louder, you know there's a short or a break in the wire then all you have to do is change that wire. Here's a tip on how I set the weight on my cartridge. I put a record on the turntable I then have a block of wood, which is cut to the right height with my scale on top. The scale should be even with the record then just take your tone arm and put it on the scale hope you understand what I'm telling you. Cheers from Canada.
Great video. this is exactly what you need to realize about higher end vinyl playback. Moving coils are great but also have character. Each mfg will have a sound preference for their cartridges. The phone stage is critical to moving coils and its good to have several on hand to see the differences. Also a SUT step up transformer is a good idea to see if this helps.
Regarding grounding end earth ground. I live in an old hose in Norway and have just installed earth ground in all my wall sockets because I am running an tube amp with 805 tubes with high voltage. It is important to be aware that earth ground does not have an international standar for house main wiring. A rule that I follow is that if one component in my my system has earth ground, all the other components should have earth ground. Bill Whitlock has a very nice presentation on this subject: "An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Shielding", however this is for the US system, and some of the theory might not apply to your country standards. The smartes thing to do is to have an professional electrician to have a look into your hose wiring and especially if you have a system running high voltage.
Tracking weight as long as you stay within the tracking range your good to go. Best set by ear Terry. There's lots of give and take with vinyl. What sounds the best compromise. Tweek to your hearts content.
The vta really took me months to get right I finally purchased a usb microscope and I was way off dialed it in re adjusted my anti skate and boom perfect. Also get an ortofon test lp
1. Once you got an MC cartridge you can get a phono stage with balanced input (and output). Assuming your tonearm is wired properly, you can then use a balanced cable from the tonearm to the phono stage and get rid of all such humming and RF interference. 2. You should not have to get a sub to compensate for lack of bass. If your digital source does not suffer from lack of bass in the same system your analog shouldn't really either. My first suspect would be cartridge loading. If you still use that current dumping phono stage you showed in a previous video maybe you should try another one with proper settings and balanced input and outputs.
Balanced in and out is interesting but I also think rca should work fine too, with this system and the gain from the phono stage and the passive pre amp the volume was high so some noise is gonna be there, trying to minimise it is part of the challenge. I listen to systems all the time digital and analogue that would benefit from a sub setup like this so it’s more essential than people realise but it should be an extra rather than a needed it. Something was not balanced here I know that
Congratulations on being the only reviewer with a straight line tracking tone arm. I am using a basic felt mat from Pfanstieh 1.5 mm with a LesDavis from Australia record mat also about 1.5 mm.. This is a vibration absorbing type of mat. This TT cannot have a record weight. Clean kick drum is achieved with my Soundsmith AIDA cartridge. You should try the next version of high output, the VOICE cartridge which will be an easy setup. You will like the extreme channel separation of this design and find it easy to set up with the higher output level requiring less gain.
Vinyl playback is a hard thing to learn. To avoid disappointment for beginners, I would recommend Moving Magnet carts. There are high-end MM or MI carts those sound fantastic and listenable for long time and easy to install. And then after a few years of practice you can go and try MC carts. You need a test record! With test record you can precisely set the tracking weight, VTA and antiskating by ear. So, you don't even need a scale.
I have learned the hard and long way and can set each cartridge adjustments in more than way. A normal and a more optimal way. Have a spin cleaner and a ultrasonic cleaner. Tried different solusions and blends of washing solusions. Have gone trough all different stylus shapes elliptical. Micro lines and shibata.. Moded tonearm wires to silver ones. Fixed so that the tone arm that can with micrometer precision adjustment and can adjust also on the fly the SRA.. Serviced the TT oil, belt adjusted speed. New low capasitance fixed signal cables. Vacuum platter. You name it.. Trougout the years 4 different RIAAs from tube, solid state discreet, class A and no feedback and so on and on. Everything just getting better and better and that is just half of all inprovements that has been done only on the analog front-end. The thing is everything has got better and better fully treated and symmetrical dedicated room. And so on and on.. Over many years evolvment. The thing is that a entry digital front end sounds hands down better than any LPs setup. It is not for the sound quality we play LPs.😮 And am sad to pour in all that time and money into vinyl and sitting with a huge LP collection wort many many $$$ With test records, analog production and so on.. So why would anybody go into LP playback today?! OH that they can make videos on how many mistakes they have done and that they are still not satisfied and need this and that for a different presentation.. The road to disappointment have started if sound quality is the goal. Instead of just leave it be and enjoy the music.. But it is fun to learn new things but end of the day (decades later) you will realize that it will NEVER beat sound quality wize what digital deliver and you sit in the same boat as I do now. 😅😂
Great review and great you share your problems , it’s not all plain sailing , I found a higher end moving magnet cartridge like the ortofon black gave me that vynil smile compared to a higher end moving coil , but hey we’re all different, well done for the year tho Terry and many thanks I’ve enjoyed your posts very much , top man
Hello Tony, I have an earth spike at the end of my garden, that goes into my av room, then into an earth filter, then into a star earthing block, then all my equipment, individually earths onto the star earth block, & it works superb. I'll be doing a video soon, on how to make a star earth block, stay tuned. Great video by the way, very professional unlike my video's 👍 😁
Great video Terry as always. Vinyl playback is a tricky thing and it takes a fair amount of matching and experimentation to get it right. Once I moved to low output MC getting a low noise floor was a challenge. I tried multiple phono stages and was disappointed. What I have going now is essentially noiseless and gives me everything I expect. You’re correct in that you can’t just throw a high end cartridge on your tonearm and expect nirvana. Consider finding a phono stage that will match your cartridge and your equipment. From what you have described your current phono stage seems to be under powered and not matching well with your set up.
That is where its intersting now - change phono stage or add an SUT - I would like to experiment with both and see how that goes. I am going to do some reaching out and see what I can get here to try
Enjoying your journey into vinyl. Cartridges do typically take a while to break in both electrically and mechanically, with changes in sound quality, sometimes extreme, occurring during the first 30 hours of play (~90 33rpm album sides!) and can continue through the initial 100 hours of play. Break-in may play no role in your experience, or it may be causing noticeable dissatisfaction with initial impressions.
You did great, despite the hurdles.. 50 dB of gain is still on the edge of MM territory.. But if you try a 60+ dB of gain MC phono stage make sure it is an extremely good one with very low noise figures, or else use a high quality Active MC Head Amp (which is not common these days) Or use high quality studio grade MC Step Up transformers (1:10 or 1:12 ratio)..
Hi terry i liked your analysis on your system & the different methods you chose to try & rectify some problems. I feel we are sharing the same journey in pursuit of our listening excellence experience. I too am trying to find my perfect sound that i experienced back in my clubbing days listening to jungle & UKG music. Keep up the good work cant wait for your next update.
Vinyl is the DIVA of audio formats. From my own failings I have found that synergy between the TT and the cartridge itself is a thing. From what I have tried some cartridges are very sensitive to picking up motor hum, as well as rumble from the belt and bearing of the platter. While others were very forgiving, one instance I remember is I wanted something different and went from a Dynavector 20x to a High End Grado. The Grado was higher output and had a broader frequency response. It was not a good fit for the TT I was using. It picked up motor hum as it approached the dead groove and rumble, where the Dynavector was always dead quiet. In the Grado I gained more authoritative bass but also artifacts. So, I put that cartridge, onto a different table. With that system, things became dead quiet again, due to that record player's better isolation of the motor and dampening of the platter.
You have had some good comments Terry plenty to work with. I like the one about cartridge loading something to play around with. What vinyl systems have you heard in the past which one court your ear.
Terry, Been on similar journey....to get a similar vibe to clubs and raves for dance music is you need horn speakers...thats what you hearing that kinda music on when you went raving, Sub wise I got a pair of Kef 62's go down to 11hz...all the bass you need
The difference between the two scales is largely due to the Ortofon version being non-magnetic. Most moving coil cartridges include a large fixed magnet which will affect the reading of many cheap digital scales. I recently switched from the original Neoteck scale to a new, non-magnetic version for a few pounds more. The new scale showed TF to be 0.2g less than the old with my AT 33PTG/II LOMC.
Hi Terry, Firstly, earthing is so important, as you’ve discovered. The earth cable into a mains plug can work really well. The best solution is to star earth the whole system and use a product like a Puritan audio groundmaster. They’ve been around for a few years and can work wonders on both analog and digital sources. They’re not silly money either. Secondly, your choice of MC cartridge is an odd one. Why was that chosen? I would have thought the logical upgrade from a £500 cartridge would have been one of the Hanas or something like a Dynavector 20x2? These can be had for about £1K and have been getting applauded by many, many people for years so would be stunned if you weren’t happy. Cheers
Hi Terry Well done on another journey video, it will surely help many folks as they contemplate upgrading their record playing setups. Couple of points to consider from my own experience: Firstly, the tracking force. You measured two scales against each other and assumed the cheaper scale was less accurate than the more expensive one. You have no evidence for that. To be certain you would need a 2g reference weight. However, this is irrelevant. The cartridge comes with a weight range of typically 0.4g or there abouts, or plus or minus 10%. Your scale accuracy was certainly good enough for that. You can set the tracking force by ear or using a test record. Start at the lower end of the recommended range and increase the tracking force in tiny increments, listening for improvements in the bass. Continue this until you notice a degradation in the treble and back off the last increment or two. Secondly, your phono stage. My phono stage has adjustments for gain, capacitance and impedance. If you can’t lift the output of your phono stage to a high enough level to match or at least come close to your digital inputs then your signal to noise ratio will suffer. I made a change to my own phono stage at the weekend moving the gain up from 60.3 to 61.8db. This made a very significant improvement in the background noise level and that was just 1.5db. The output level of my cartridge is specified as 0.4mV, exactly the same as your Luxman. Whilst still on the subject of the phono stage, I would look at the capacitance and impedance matching. Changing these values will have a huge impact on the tonal balance of your system and may explain why you felt the need to add a sub when you don’t need it with your digital source. In fact, having the digital source playing the same music eliminates all other variables in the system (notwithstanding any variations in the mastering) to help you to set these parameters. I really like this series and I hope you persevere with it and don’t become disheartened by these diversions along the way. At some point it may be worth asking a manufacturer to send you one of their matched setups at a similar level to your own. A top end Rega or entry level Linn perhaps?
Hum with a TT can be purely down to cable shielding. I found a certain well known and expensive make is prone to hum even with their specialist phono cable. You should not need to be attaching extra earth cables. Remember phono cable is taking a very low level signal.
Yeah I would have used to Dirac to manage the sound in the regions I spoke about here, but adding the sub first would have been still a good move as its easuer to manage the sound down than up
Interesting stuff thank you. I only have budget/low end equipment but have never had any kind of hum or feedback, so must be less sensitive to that kind of thing.
I didnt really hear any before either but changing up the gear introduces new circuits and connections etc. Its nothing to worry about though it can be dealt with
It's impossible not to make mistakes. The best thing about making the mistakes is you learn from them, plus you can pass that experience on. Vinyl cleaning is definitely not snake oil. The cleaner the record, the closer you get to the pressing.
Not cleaning, more advanced cleaning. I have bought myself a Christmas present and will have a video for it soon. It’s pretty obvious what it might be so let’s see how I get on :)
Hi Terry, the Ortofon scales are not more accurate, however the they are closer to the physical height of a record. The height at which tracking force is measured will effect the reading, however there is a range of TF as long as you are close to the optimum it should be fine, then you can micro adjust to find the best setting for you. For example a thick record (180 grams+) might require a slightly higher tracking force to give absolutely optimised performance. Grounding through the earth (ground) pin on a standard UK plug and linking to your homes mains earth can pay dividends, it will certainly do no harm, its a simple try and see if makes any improvement. In my old house I found that it did but since we've moved it makes no difference whatsoever. You've done the right thing making your own grounding cables, there's no advantage to be gained by expensive grounding cables, in my experience cheap bell wire (with good connectors) works exactly the same, all you actually doing is moving RDF back to ground, theoretically any wire should perform the same function.
The height thing is what I thought at first well, however the height difference is very minimal, either way I understand we ideally want the record height to set the weight but that is bloody hard to get right. The closest I got was the scales on top of the platter mat it’s hard to know how close that is.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I have the Ortofon scales and a Roksan scales that seem to be just rebadged cheap Chinese Amazon scales. when using the scales on the platter I've. found that Ortofons give a reading that is nominally about 0.1 to 0.2 of gram greater than the Roksan, the Ortofon scales measuring platform seems to be closer to the platter than the Roksan by around 0.5 to 0.7mm, according to my O'level physics (admitted nearly 40 years ago) that would explain the variation in measurements, the greater the distance between and pivot point and the surface the higher the measured mass. For example when I raise the on fly adjustment to my VTA for a thicker record I also micro adjust and increase my tracking force to compensate. This is really getting into the weeds and in all reality it shouldn't make too much of difference but I'm aware of it. If a cartridge as a range of tracking force settings between say 2.0 grams and 2.5 grams with an optimum of 2.3 grams a measured difference of 2.2 gram to 2.4 grams might be audible in absolutely terms but it shouldn't effect performance or even measurement in a way that effects vinyl replay. I tend to set my TF slightly above the optimum simple because I find it negates hard treble frequencies on not so good recordings and gives a slightly more centred stereo image, this might be imagined on my part, I honestly don't know, but it works for me.
You gave this vinyl system every advantage...and still had to add a sub to get it sounding like your digital. Digital is technically and sonically better and mostly cheaper and less hassle. Enjoy the vinyl ride and the nostalgia and the engineering mate....but you know and i know that you'll be back on the superior pure digital music system eventually. :-)
To be fair I am reviewing digital now and I feel the same about the subwoofer for it, so maybe it’s just a very good subwoofer that adds a lot to my speakers. That’s what hard about this job as you can’t know what you haven’t experienced yet
In my experience, some of the cheap scales are affected by the cartilage, they will change value the closer it gets. That is what they show correctly for the weight, but not the cartridge. This effect varies a lot, seems much worse on MC likely to more magnetic force, I didn’t even notice with basic MM cartridges.
An audio dealer I know has said that cheaper scales that contain metal parts will interact with magnetic fields in Moving Coil cartridges and will report inaccurate VTF. This will not be a problem/less of a problem with Moving Magnet cartridges that have smaller magnets. YMMV
My budget (and the fact that I am deaf in one ear) means I can only justify a system that would, at best, be described as an early-mid tier system in the serios audiophile community. But I love it. The analogue chain starts with a Rega system (Ania MC cartridge mounted to a current gen Planar 6 turntable, into the Aria phono stage) ending up at my Buchardt A500 active speakers. As briefly as possible, I would describe it as "Full-bodied precision". I auditioned the cheaper "Exact" MM cartridge from Rega. Unfortunately for my wallet I could hear a difference stepping up to the Ania MC. I auditioned multiple phono stages to see if I could hear an upgrade from my Schiit Mani 2. Unfortunately for my wallet, I could hear an improvement with every stage I listened to (the Mani is a fab little stage for MM, and can hold you over for a bit on the move up to MC, but you'll want to upgrade from it eventually). The frontrunners (in my budget) with the Rega Aria were the Dynavector P75 and Chord Huei. I felt both had greater transient attack and macro-dynamics than the Rega Aria but I was willing to give that up for the greater body and sense of overall "oneness" that I heard with the Aria/Ania/P6 combination. The Aria and Huei were, to my ear, similar with level of detail resolution but the Huei presented detail in an almost etched digital-sounding way compared to the Aria's more organic natural analogue-y way. A benefit I encountered that you would have missed out on with your system is that, by staying in the Rega ecosystem, the Rega phono stage was designed with Rega MC cartridges in mind so it is able to provide the correct amount of gain required for the cartridges - in the case of Rega MC carts that's a whopping 69.9dB of gain! As such, my digital and turntable front ends are producing the same output levels and I don't have to mess with the volume control on my system when switching between sources. Good luck with your ongoing vinyl journey!
Scales differ according to physical height of scale higher scales cause the tonearm to load down pressure on the scale. You need to have tonearm parallel to scale surface
Pay attention to compliance and tone, arm weight I suspect base is very dependent on the tone arm and the cartridge being compatible, high compliance cartridges, like light toneArms most moving coil cartridges are low compliance and tend to do better in S-shaped heavier tone, arms such as technique type of tone, but they were tone arms such as
I have just realised that they are two different types of scales, the Chinese one has the scale very raised while the Ortofon is very close to the mat which means no matter how you will try to use them you will always have a big difference because every time the tone arm will go lower on one and one the other one not that low meaning that one one the arm presses more than on the other. Took me long enough to get but there it is , the only difference is how they were built, they do the same thing apart from the Chinese one which can only weight up to 5 grams
Very interesting video in fact an excellent insight to to world of vinyl play back an exceptional video. Your speakers need an up grade. Speakers will let you hear what's going on. No need to had the sub woofer. Ground hum Russ Andrews is a good place to look . Synergy is the key but remember everything is a compromise it will never be perfect it will only ever come close to be perfect. Too many variables. I can see you chopping and changing things constantly because you won't do things to thr right order. You've ended up all over the place. Be it on your wallet. Go back to the beginning and start again. Follow the vinyl rules. Don't get carried away with having the most expensive gear. Take small steps. When your happy with what you hear stop anything else will just be different not better. Good luck with your vinyl journey it could go on for ever. Stick to the rules Terry.
As others may have mentioned, your phono preamplifier gain, if only 50db is a little low. Check out the new Schiit Skoll. Up to 70db of gain, and all adjustments can be made on the front panel, or better yet, with the remote. Another possibility would be the use of a SUT, (step-up transformer) . I think low gain manifests in all your subsequent problems. JMHO, I'm no expert.
I tried another phono stage I have here up to 70db of gain and that was better in some respects worse in others so yes I think the gain is important but not necessarily just the answer on its own. However a step up could be a good thing to consider I will consider that also
So other than scratch your heads what are we gonna do. Terry if you could feature one or to on your channel that would be amazing. We are on the some page. Happy hunting. I will research more into it. Its the sound signature that would be the guess for me, try before you buy but no one demos these any more.
Now i've got my digital front end sounding how i like it i hardly use the Gyrodec/PSU/SME v/Ortofon MC. It's just not worth the hassle and faff...but it can be magic at times. I do convert the analogue to digital to allow the same PEQ/Room correction and i use atc active scm50 and a REL 812 sub for both digital and vinyl front ends. If anything the vinyl has more bass...or rather on further experience and listening...a richer but less defined accurate bass than the digital front end....Bass is mono on vinyl too which may be a factor. If my mc cart breaks i cant easily or cheaply retip it or replace the mechanism like MM carts so that would be £2k plus to get an equivalent new one. I'll be flogging the gyrodec arm mc etc and spending the money on the rest of the system.
Not really sure where you live but if you ever find yourself near Bracknell I will gladly have you for some vynil listening session and maybe some tips and thoughts exchange 😊
Terry back when I was younger transformers were the norm 1970s and 80s. Now days not to many people know about them. I'm in the market for one myself. There's not many to choose from. Bot which one do I go for. Cartridge loading range has to be right, Ortofon st-70 I'm looking at as a starting point, but I just don't know. Quadratic mc-1 is another. Hope you share your findings. I would like to upgrade from Linn adikt mm to Linn Krystal mc, I won't to keep my naim nait 50 it's a keeper. Choosing the right transformer is for me going to be a guess.
I could possibly get an ortofon here to test, I saw someone recommend a phasemotion 500 and I was looking at that and then 10 others used and new and ended up eyeing up the quadratic mc1 too but £1800 is a lot of cheddar
Where does the law of diminishing returns come into play when buying a cartridge? This is my first time watching this channel. I'd never heard of Bergmann, but since the website doesn't list prices I have to assume I wouldn't ever be able to afford one! I have a Rega P2 with an AT-VM540ML....my first "real" turntable. I've seen MM carts that cost several times the cost of the table. Would the equivalent or double the price be more than sufficient?
That is a great question, I would love to be able to answer it but I dont have enough experience at the moment. I have made several videos with manufacturers where they talk about the challenges of TT design and its very interesting stuff. Thanks for watching and I hope you stick around to watch some more.
A ground between the preamp and the phono should be all you need to eliminate hum. 60 to 66db gain is what you want for lomc. Loading around 100 ohms works for most cartridges.
Also a shibata stylus is very sensitive to VTA but not sure how that adjusts with a linear tracker, but if you can adjust, it will make a difference in tonality.
Yes lots of options but frustrating at times. What let's vinyl play back down is modern day new recordings all from pcm digital masters they lack the analogue vinyl magic. Older 70s records all pure analogue from start to finish the best of analogue will be found here. The best cartridge and phono stage can not put it back. But everything can make a difference. Good recordings are a must. The equipment will make shine. So find it is a all new story.
Yeah I haven’t explained step ups yet, I will look into that. This cart is a review sample and I was told it was reviewed by another publication before being sent to me so I assumed it had a life before it came here. Impossible to know how much of a life though but yeah thanks for the suggestion
@@PursuitPerfectSystem and if you like different types of music like from electro to jazz i would suggest to look in getting a Benz Micro cartridge, boron canteliver, microridge diamond cut which is the closest cut to the one that is cutting the lathe for record pressing, that will amaze you and for half the money, i for one have a Benz Micro Ace SL and i can gladly demo this one for you.
Ah the wonderful world of vinyl! Didn't take you long to move up the kit tree, my friend.👌 One question, using that test, how do you know the more expensive scales are the accurate reading? or am I missing something? For the foreseeable future, I'm sticking to my Goldring 1042 through my Remton 383 mk 1 phono stage😉.
Perks of the job allow me to move so fast, its different to a normal situation. I dont know the more expensive scales are more accurate, I have to assume they are at the moment
Yeah I didn’t know about them until this video where a few people have recommended them so I have been looking into them. It seems like some phono stages build them in and that is what is in the phono I am using but 50db of gain is not enough. So I have been looking at various options, but one problem with a step up is it’s hard to get one that would be flexible as I would want it to work with different cartridges. I have found one but it’s not cheap. At the same time I have been reaching out to try some different phonos too. I also bought myself a new record cleaner for Xmas so I need to take stock and look at one thing at a time :)
@PursuitPerfectSystem fidelity research made a good one back in the golden days of vinyl available only as second hand, three types to choose the right loading. Dealer don't have the knowledge now days.
Analog is not plug and play... there are tons of variables where things can go wrong. My J.A Michel Gyrodec I regard as a mucical instrument where anything you do with it ends up having an effect on sound.
Yeah that was the point of my conclusion really this is all very sensitive gear that requires you to work hard to get it bang on. That’s where the frustration comes from
It sounds as if you did not set the loading correctly in your phoni unit. Did you try the recommended 40 Ohms? If you forgot and left it at the MM setting of 47k, then it may sound too bright. Also the cables from cartridge to phono unit must be low capacitance, your regular RCAs may not be the best match.
There are no loading options on this phonostage it auto sets it for the cartridge so it wasn’t that or at least I couldn’t change that. It was fine on another cartridge so I am sure it works ok
The problem with modern higher end cartridges are they are really hot. Having to add a woofer to me is ridiculous. Maybe hifi makers need to look at vintage setups and add better mids and lows to amps and speakers? Having spent all that cash you would expect perfection.
OK, don't forget the title of the video vinyl for beginners. The sub woofer needed to be in place before you got going. Vinyl for beginners not sub woofers. Now you have the sub in place you can now just focus on the vinyl front end. You have set an index to work from. Vinyl all the way. I like my linn lp12 ha e you ever tryed one.
By all means add a sub woofer but you should get good sound without one you added one because you were disappointed with that you were hearing with just thr missions. Your on a vinyl journey adding sub woofer is more to do with the room your listening in your the main speakers lack low end. Now you have the sub woofer in place just focus on the vinyl front end. Record deck arm and cartridge. If you've got a good phono stage stick with it.
Yeah I agree the balance here was not quite right at least for my lofty high expectations, however with the rel on you wouldn’t know it was on as the blend was seamless so using the sub to support the vocal range is a very real thing. People often waste their subwoofers by only using them set very low in freq, they can do a lot more than that
@@PursuitPerfectSystemI agree. I do prefer when the mains have enough weight so the subs can be blended low, but a lot of times it’s very useful to blend them higher (due to room acoustics, placement or whatever). That said my main hesitation against getting into vinyl is all the lean, mid forward/centric examples of vinyl on CZcams.. and my brief experience seems to suggest that it’s so easy to get into that territory, changing phone stage, matt or cartridge.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry there might be an element of breaking as well, I bought a cartridge for my LP 12 and it sounded terrible for a while but then slowly broken in ,it’s absolutely fine now. I’m just getting into vinyl now I absolutely love the sound so different to my digital. I bought an immaculate well looked after 1981 Linn Lp 12 it cost £1000 probably the best thousand pound I’ve ever spent in my Audio it sounds great. You’ve made me think I was going to spend £1400 on a Dynavector xx2 but I’m taking stock of your experiences there is many factors to consider mainly I have a built-in phono stage would it be good enough for the DV. keep posting about vinyl I love it. 👍
Just depends how you look at it, I use subwoofers to compliment the speakers so the speakers sound bigger and more how I want them to for their full bass delivery. Not just for the very bottom octaves of bass. In most rooms bass from 40-300hz is very poor from speakers due to the rooms acoustics and you can make a big improvement to this with subwoofers so long as they are time aligned and setup well.
Very interesting video. Without wanting to be a dick, I think you might be overthinking this. It doesn’t make sense - to me at least - that the subwoofer made the difference you were looking for. If a system at this price level, isn’t sounding sublime without the subwoofer, then the system is fundamentally flawed, and if the phono stage is so sensitive to being close to other components, then that’s just poor design, regardless of price, but especially unacceptable at this price level. Those Mission speakers don’t need a subwoofer to produce excellent sound, and they couldn’t have been the missing link by themselves. There’s something else going on here I think
Let me explain I could use the subwoofer to balance the system better overall, so yes in an ideal world the system would be balanced already and then the subwoofer would be used to enhance the performance, however I was trying to demonstrate what’s possible to do with a subwoofer in terms of looking at the whole systems sound and balance. This is what I am professional in so know this all very well
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thanks for the reply and for the extra info. I use a REL sub on my system too, and it improves the sound in all areas, as well as the bass, but the system sounds good without the sub too. The phono stage placement sensitivity is odd tho. I understand well enough, that equipment needs to be well matched, but surely even lower end equipment should be able to work close to other electronics? That’s a very expensive phono stage and I’d not be satisfied if it couldn’t function next to the other gear. I have an ancient Lentek phono stage worth a fraction of the price, that can function anywhere. I enjoy listening and exploring HiFi that is out of my price range, but surely it should function better than lower end equipment, otherwise, you’d be foolish to buy it? I’m not trying to troll you, or be a knob, I’m just curious. Great channel 👊🏻
You think Ortofon scale is more accurate than the cheap one because Ortofon scale is more expensive? That's not scientific conclusion. I believe both use piezoelectric pressure sensor and similar parts for the circuit. Its just my guess but both are made in China. It is possible that Ortofon took extra time to calibrate the scale so it can be more accurate, though I doubt it. We can't just say Ortofon scale is accurate than the cheap scale unless you bring in the 3rd reference and do the comparison.
I used the words I have to believe the Ortofon is the more accurate especially as it’s plate is much closer to where the record is and it sounded more correct to me as well. It’s not just because it costs more.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks for the response. >it’s plate is much closer to where the record Okay, I missed that part. That's interesting difference. It can explain why they measure slightly different. Not either one is more accurate but simply different. > it sounded more correct to me I heard it you said that in the video. But that's your subjective opinion. I'm perfectly okay you saying that and you prefer Ortofon scale. But it doesn't tell the one is more accurate than the other as a scale, measurement device. Don't want to be or need to be picky. I enjoy your channel a lot. That's important to me. Thanks again.
With all due respect, you should not have to add a sub woofer to get great bass, there is something wrong here. Your YBA most probably does not have enough gain or they've went more downhill than I thought, 0.4mv is nothing special for a low output cart, they originally made great gear. I'm sure with your connections you should be able to borrow a good quality 1.10 step up transformer or a better suited phono stage.
I agree it should have been a little better balanced out of the box as it were and something is not balancing here hence the whole point of the video. However I wouldn’t underestimate how much a difference the subwoofer makes and also how high my sonic expectations are from the sound I get from digital in this room. There is a lot to consider here but I would want to add subwoofers to most systems and most of the vinyl systems I have heard.
Did you lose some weight? Oh my goodness, is it really necessary to be asking that? Anyway, great explanatory for all vinyl enthusiasts. It's also good to know that you take wireless bluetooth audio very seriously these days aswell, since it's incorporation into many modern turntables.
Thanks for the video. I see in the video that when you setting the VTF and you use the Ortofon scale your stylus tip is not put down on the scale in an optimal point. That is enough to get a different VTF. I don't really think it's a big difference between the two scales as long as you use them right. Take a look at this video then you see what I mean. czcams.com/video/tGkHiVCGqHE/video.html
That not where the instructions tell you to place the point of measurement, but if you use the very edge like in the video the weight is higher so the difference is even bigger.,
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Ok. I don't have the Ortofon scale so I can't really talk about that one, but saw that video and wanted to inform you about it. The scales are very sensitive and if you breath a little to hard they will be picking that up and if there is any magnetic interference that will also be picked up by the scales 😎🤘 PS. and I see you have your mat on when you use the scales. That should not be on the platter when you set the weight. You need a sturdy place to put the scales on. But any how, I love to watch your videos. You come a long way in very short time. I love your gear. Good luck.
Yeah that was a concern for me with them if you move the measurement point the weight changes, they seems counterintuitive to me for a set of scales but I appreciate its a trade off for getting the platter to measure on thats lower than the scales themselves
No you don't want to earth it to the mains sounds like you've got some ground loop Earth problems just make sure the mains for the turntable is Earth the motor, the cartridge grounded just to the phono stage, should be fine, there is no men's Earth on the phono stage you don't want it you don't need it the grounding comes through the case and the RCA connection sounds like your leads are not very good as well from the turntable and maybe from the phono stage if picking up noise. Make sure they are triple shielded microphone cable ideally 43 ohms don't go for this nonsense hi-fi cable not up to the job you can use balance cable but still needs to be double shielded minimum and connect to the RCA plugs on the end ideally locking ones try and get silver connectors. The only company that's worth considering getting ready-made connecting cables is chord cables. Ring mains in the UK are problematic for hi-fi ideally you want to use a 3 mH inductor on your Earth cables. I would look at the turntable might be your biggest problem here, you might be getting motor noise don't keep it on the hi-fi line the operational side of the turntable try and find a different circuit for it that's not necessarily different socket that could help if it's away from the hi-fi side of it but ideally I completely different line. could use an isolation transformer as well I think the pump circuitry is making noise that's what you picking up more than motor noise from the turntable motor, could be both, disconnect the pump and see if the noise goes away that will tell you then you got to isolate it you can buy on on auction sites cheap isolation transformer means conditioner made by BT should pick one up for £50 connect the pump into that and turntable usually have two English mains sockets on them.
Yes but you're neutral and Earth's will not be isolated. Try turning off the turntable pump and see if your hum goes away making sure the stylus is on the record when you do this@@PursuitPerfectSystem
Thanks for watching my video, something that I didn't explain properly, I am using a passive preamplifier so how the volume works on that is very different to a normal preamplifier, where you would likely never go near the maximum volume, the passive preamp is different.
We won't get perfection but we will find something we like. Eventually.
22:50 hrs. When tightening phono clips, you should insert a round toothpick into it so as to limit the amount of compression.
Shibata profile was originally designed for ye old Quad records I think the CD4 variant from JVC the profile reaches to 45khz … you read that right … to track the ambient detail for Quad reproduction. It caught on as the hi frequency performance was top notch however remember it was designed for Quad reproduction not Stereo although it will do it. Marketing prevailed and the Shibata become THE one to have however there are issues with set up as noted…VTA/SRA etc. had a similar set up Issue with an Ortofon 2M Black which has a Shibata once “dailed in” great results though the 2M bronze ( nude fine line) seems less fussy. Best I’ve come across though is micro ridge as this is as close as possible to the cutting tools so wear is less an issue and reasonably not to fussy in set up!
Great Video !!!
Listened to many TT set ups over the years including vacuum ones. At present Running a Technics SL1210G stock with a Dynavector XV1s phono is a Naim Superline/Supercap combo with a 453R loading plug!!.. Sounds bloody great!!..Giving my Linn stuff a test run…
Your 100 percent right what your saying, I learned not to try and make vinyl sound as detailed as CD or streaming , I like it the way it sounds
When I got my first MC cart, I also underestimated how sensitive the phono stage is. I was getting a really annoying ticking sound, not very loud, but I could hear it in quiet segments. I took my whole system apart trying to figure out what it was, changed all my cables over and my mains cables, and finally asked a friend who worked at Audioquest, who then asked if I had any Homeplugs in the house for internet. I did, it was on the computer in another room, so I removed that, and the annoying ticking went away. I’ve since run a long Ethernet cable to that computer and the ticking sound never returned! The things you learn when playing with audio!
Primare R35 phono stage.
Perfect for you. Has you are a hi-fi reviewer this world cater to all your needs. Load resistance and capacitance adjustable single end and balanced connections. Fine sounding phono stage . Primare R35 Perfect solution. You mentioned Primare brand to me in the comments.
Still trying to sort my vinyl solution out but I'm getting there. Happy New year Terry.
There are lots of options mark, that’s part of the problem and also the fun :)
A really great video & well thought out. After 40+ years in the industry most things regarding ground loops were known to me & ways to cure them. Mechanical feedback is a world all of its own applicable to every audio component. Then along came streamers....That's when the fun really starts....Now aged 71 I gave up on vinyl 20 years ago. Enjoy...
Terry ....Thanks for doing such an honest video!!!!! You are a brave man to bare your humanity to us all....and this is why I had decided to just super-tweek my digital/streaming/SACD/CD System. I am old ...and back in the 70's-80's I had a very high-end vinyl system w/MC Cartridge etc......and to my memory sounded INCREDIBLE...BUT........the sheer thought and the expense of getting into vinyl at this point with all of the variables, many of which you discuss here and there are many more... You did not even touch on such things like the variable nature of record pressings in and of themselves. There are just sooooo many variables... I am more obsessive in some ways in my old age and I have my system to a point that I just love the sound! TRULY......but opening the Pandora's Box of vinyl at this point is off the plate. My level of expectation would be so extreme as would the expense be as well, to get me there!!!!!
So...your video was EXTREMELY useful to me, 😁 to keep the vinyl realm out of my universe...but something I can just postulate about and view from afar like an orbiting planet... with great interest!
THANK YOU for helping to preserve my sanity!!!!! 👍
A lot of tonearms will measure higher when the cartridge higher off the platter. As the Ortofon measures closer to level of the record. The low-cost scales work fine but weight should always be measured at Stylus playback level or very close to it. I'm happy you are part of the Vinyl club now.
Hi Terry, I'm from Canada I think our electrical grid system here is probably better than the one in great Britain. I'm 68 years old and people have ask me to look into humming or buzzing that they have with their hi-fi system and 99% of the time it has been the ground wire. When i tell them it's the ground wire they alway's tell me it looks good to them. What i do is pull the ground wire while it is still connected and playing to the System if you hear the noise get louder, you know there's a short or a break in the wire then all you have to do is change that wire. Here's a tip on how I set the weight on my cartridge. I put a record on the turntable I then have a block of wood, which is cut to the right height with my scale on top. The scale should be even with the record then just take your tone arm and put it on the scale hope you understand what I'm telling you. Cheers from Canada.
Great video. this is exactly what you need to realize about higher end vinyl playback. Moving coils are great but also have character. Each mfg will have a sound preference for their cartridges. The phone stage is critical to moving coils and its good to have several on hand to see the differences. Also a SUT step up transformer is a good idea to see if this helps.
Regarding grounding end earth ground. I live in an old hose in Norway and have just installed earth ground in all my wall sockets because I am running an tube amp with 805 tubes with high voltage. It is important to be aware that earth ground does not have an international standar for house main wiring. A rule that I follow is that if one component in my my system has earth ground, all the other components should have earth ground. Bill Whitlock has a very nice presentation on this subject: "An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Shielding", however this is for the US system, and some of the theory might not apply to your country standards. The smartes thing to do is to have an professional electrician to have a look into your hose wiring and especially if you have a system running high voltage.
Tracking weight as long as you stay within the tracking range your good to go. Best set by ear Terry. There's lots of give and take with vinyl.
What sounds the best compromise. Tweek to your hearts content.
The vta really took me months to get right I finally purchased a usb microscope and I was way off dialed it in re adjusted my anti skate and boom perfect. Also get an ortofon test lp
1. Once you got an MC cartridge you can get a phono stage with balanced input (and output). Assuming your tonearm is wired properly, you can then use a balanced cable from the tonearm to the phono stage and get rid of all such humming and RF interference.
2. You should not have to get a sub to compensate for lack of bass. If your digital source does not suffer from lack of bass in the same system your analog shouldn't really either. My first suspect would be cartridge loading. If you still use that current dumping phono stage you showed in a previous video maybe you should try another one with proper settings and balanced input and outputs.
Balanced in and out is interesting but I also think rca should work fine too, with this system and the gain from the phono stage and the passive pre amp the volume was high so some noise is gonna be there, trying to minimise it is part of the challenge.
I listen to systems all the time digital and analogue that would benefit from a sub setup like this so it’s more essential than people realise but it should be an extra rather than a needed it. Something was not balanced here I know that
Congratulations on being the only reviewer with a straight line tracking tone arm. I am using a basic felt mat from Pfanstieh 1.5 mm with a LesDavis from Australia record mat also about 1.5 mm.. This is a vibration absorbing type of mat. This TT cannot have a record weight. Clean kick drum is achieved with my Soundsmith AIDA cartridge. You should try the next version of high output, the VOICE cartridge which will be an easy setup. You will like the extreme channel separation of this design and find it easy to set up with the higher output level requiring less gain.
Vinyl playback is a hard thing to learn. To avoid disappointment for beginners, I would recommend Moving Magnet carts. There are high-end MM or MI carts those sound fantastic and listenable for long time and easy to install. And then after a few years of practice you can go and try MC carts. You need a test record! With test record you can precisely set the tracking weight, VTA and antiskating by ear. So, you don't even need a scale.
I have learned the hard and long way and can set each cartridge adjustments in more than way.
A normal and a more optimal way.
Have a spin cleaner and a ultrasonic cleaner. Tried different solusions and blends of washing solusions.
Have gone trough all different stylus shapes elliptical. Micro lines and shibata..
Moded tonearm wires to silver ones. Fixed so that the tone arm that can with micrometer precision adjustment and can adjust also on the fly the SRA..
Serviced the TT oil, belt adjusted speed. New low capasitance fixed signal cables. Vacuum platter. You name it..
Trougout the years 4 different RIAAs from tube, solid state discreet, class A and no feedback and so on and on.
Everything just getting better and better and that is just half of all inprovements that has been done only on the analog front-end.
The thing is everything has got better and better fully treated and symmetrical dedicated room. And so on and on.. Over many years evolvment.
The thing is that a entry digital front end sounds hands down better than any LPs setup.
It is not for the sound quality we play LPs.😮
And am sad to pour in all that time and money into vinyl and sitting with a huge LP collection wort many many $$$
With test records, analog production and so on..
So why would anybody go into LP playback today?!
OH that they can make videos on how many mistakes they have done and that they are still not satisfied and need this and that for a different presentation.. The road to disappointment have started if sound quality is the goal.
Instead of just leave it be and enjoy the music..
But it is fun to learn new things but end of the day (decades later) you will realize that it will NEVER beat sound quality wize what digital deliver and you sit in the same boat as I do now. 😅😂
I’ve done the Earth to Earth plug in the wall socket and it worked an absolute treat
Yeah it makes sense it would be a logical thing to do thanks for that Paul
Me too, a bit of OFC speaker cable from the preamp ground into the earth of a blank plug and then into a switched off socket. No more hum.
Great review and great you share your problems , it’s not all plain sailing , I found a higher end moving magnet cartridge like the ortofon black gave me that vynil smile compared to a higher end moving coil , but hey we’re all different, well done for the year tho Terry and many thanks I’ve enjoyed your posts very much , top man
Hello Tony, I have an earth spike at the end of my garden, that goes into my av room, then into an earth filter, then into a star earthing block, then all my equipment, individually earths onto the star earth block, & it works superb.
I'll be doing a video soon, on how to make a star earth block, stay tuned.
Great video by the way, very professional unlike my video's 👍 😁
Great video Terry as always. Vinyl playback is a tricky thing and it takes a fair amount of matching and experimentation to get it right. Once I moved to low output MC getting a low noise floor was a challenge. I tried multiple phono stages and was disappointed. What I have going now is essentially noiseless and gives me everything I expect. You’re correct in that you can’t just throw a high end cartridge on your tonearm and expect nirvana. Consider finding a phono stage that will match your cartridge and your equipment. From what you have described your current phono stage seems to be under powered and not matching well with your set up.
That is where its intersting now - change phono stage or add an SUT - I would like to experiment with both and see how that goes. I am going to do some reaching out and see what I can get here to try
Enjoying your journey into vinyl. Cartridges do typically take a while to break in both electrically and mechanically, with changes in sound quality, sometimes extreme, occurring during the first 30 hours of play (~90 33rpm album sides!) and can continue through the initial 100 hours of play. Break-in may play no role in your experience, or it may be causing noticeable dissatisfaction with initial impressions.
This sample had been reviewed before it came to me by another publication, I would have assumed they did the running in
You did great, despite the hurdles.. 50 dB of gain is still on the edge of MM territory.. But if you try a 60+ dB of gain MC phono stage make sure it is an extremely good one with very low noise figures, or else use a high quality Active MC Head Amp (which is not common these days) Or use high quality studio grade MC Step Up transformers (1:10 or 1:12 ratio)..
Hi terry i liked your analysis on your system & the different methods you chose to try & rectify some problems. I feel we are sharing the same journey in pursuit of our listening excellence experience. I too am trying to find my perfect sound that i experienced back in my clubbing days listening to jungle & UKG music. Keep up the good work cant wait for your next update.
Well we'll learn from your lessons Terry, keep going and thank you for sharing.
Vinyl is the DIVA of audio formats. From my own failings I have found that synergy between the TT and the cartridge itself is a thing. From what I have tried some cartridges are very sensitive to picking up motor hum, as well as rumble from the belt and bearing of the platter. While others were very forgiving, one instance I remember is I wanted something different and went from a Dynavector 20x to a High End Grado. The Grado was higher output and had a broader frequency response. It was not a good fit for the TT I was using. It picked up motor hum as it approached the dead groove and rumble, where the Dynavector was always dead quiet. In the Grado I gained more authoritative bass but also artifacts. So, I put that cartridge, onto a different table. With that system, things became dead quiet again, due to that record player's better isolation of the motor and dampening of the platter.
100% IF you go down this rabbit hole, you better prepare yourself. ;-)
You have had some good comments Terry plenty to work with. I like the one about cartridge loading something to play around with.
What vinyl systems have you heard in the past which one court your ear.
Terry, Been on similar journey....to get a similar vibe to clubs and raves for dance music is you need horn speakers...thats what you hearing that kinda music on when you went raving, Sub wise I got a pair of Kef 62's go down to 11hz...all the bass you need
The difference between the two scales is largely due to the Ortofon version being non-magnetic. Most moving coil cartridges include a large fixed magnet which will affect the reading of many cheap digital scales. I recently switched from the original Neoteck scale to a new, non-magnetic version for a few pounds more. The new scale showed TF to be 0.2g less than the old with my AT 33PTG/II LOMC.
Hi Terry,
Firstly, earthing is so important, as you’ve discovered. The earth cable into a mains plug can work really well. The best solution is to star earth the whole system and use a product like a Puritan audio groundmaster. They’ve been around for a few years and can work wonders on both analog and digital sources. They’re not silly money either.
Secondly, your choice of MC cartridge is an odd one. Why was that chosen? I would have thought the logical upgrade from a £500 cartridge would have been one of the Hanas or something like a Dynavector 20x2? These can be had for about £1K and have been getting applauded by many, many people for years so would be stunned if you weren’t happy.
Cheers
Hi Terry
Well done on another journey video, it will surely help many folks as they contemplate upgrading their record playing setups. Couple of points to consider from my own experience:
Firstly, the tracking force. You measured two scales against each other and assumed the cheaper scale was less accurate than the more expensive one. You have no evidence for that. To be certain you would need a 2g reference weight. However, this is irrelevant. The cartridge comes with a weight range of typically 0.4g or there abouts, or plus or minus 10%. Your scale accuracy was certainly good enough for that.
You can set the tracking force by ear or using a test record. Start at the lower end of the recommended range and increase the tracking force in tiny increments, listening for improvements in the bass. Continue this until you notice a degradation in the treble and back off the last increment or two.
Secondly, your phono stage. My phono stage has adjustments for gain, capacitance and impedance. If you can’t lift the output of your phono stage to a high enough level to match or at least come close to your digital inputs then your signal to noise ratio will suffer. I made a change to my own phono stage at the weekend moving the gain up from 60.3 to 61.8db. This made a very significant improvement in the background noise level and that was just 1.5db. The output level of my cartridge is specified as 0.4mV, exactly the same as your Luxman.
Whilst still on the subject of the phono stage, I would look at the capacitance and impedance matching. Changing these values will have a huge impact on the tonal balance of your system and may explain why you felt the need to add a sub when you don’t need it with your digital source. In fact, having the digital source playing the same music eliminates all other variables in the system (notwithstanding any variations in the mastering) to help you to set these parameters.
I really like this series and I hope you persevere with it and don’t become disheartened by these diversions along the way. At some point it may be worth asking a manufacturer to send you one of their matched setups at a similar level to your own. A top end Rega or entry level Linn perhaps?
Hum with a TT can be purely down to cable shielding. I found a certain well known and expensive make is prone to hum even with their specialist phono cable. You should not need to be attaching extra earth cables. Remember phono cable is taking a very low level signal.
hello ,great honest video. I believe you need an SUT transformer for the cartridge, I bet would help. thanks again. enjoy the journey
Thanks I have made a few more journey vids after this one, one is about an SUT
Recognizeable! My last trick was plugging my turntable into my miniDSP SHD and using Dirac (500hz) and that did it.
Yeah I would have used to Dirac to manage the sound in the regions I spoke about here, but adding the sub first would have been still a good move as its easuer to manage the sound down than up
Interesting stuff thank you. I only have budget/low end equipment but have never had any kind of hum or feedback, so must be less sensitive to that kind of thing.
I didnt really hear any before either but changing up the gear introduces new circuits and connections etc. Its nothing to worry about though it can be dealt with
Once again Terry you have proved to me the ease of using CDs not vinyl. Cheers
I would make that complicated too though you do know
Congrats 🍾
I’m a Koetsu man myself 😎
It's impossible not to make mistakes. The best thing about making the mistakes is you learn from them, plus you can pass that experience on. Vinyl cleaning is definitely not snake oil. The cleaner the record, the closer you get to the pressing.
Not cleaning, more advanced cleaning. I have bought myself a Christmas present and will have a video for it soon. It’s pretty obvious what it might be so let’s see how I get on :)
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I'm guessing it's not a pair of socks! Yeah, looking forward to the vid. :)
Hi Terry, the Ortofon scales are not more accurate, however the they are closer to the physical height of a record. The height at which tracking force is measured will effect the reading, however there is a range of TF as long as you are close to the optimum it should be fine, then you can micro adjust to find the best setting for you. For example a thick record (180 grams+) might require a slightly higher tracking force to give absolutely optimised performance.
Grounding through the earth (ground) pin on a standard UK plug and linking to your homes mains earth can pay dividends, it will certainly do no harm, its a simple try and see if makes any improvement. In my old house I found that it did but since we've moved it makes no difference whatsoever. You've done the right thing making your own grounding cables, there's no advantage to be gained by expensive grounding cables, in my experience cheap bell wire (with good connectors) works exactly the same, all you actually doing is moving RDF back to ground, theoretically any wire should perform the same function.
The height thing is what I thought at first well, however the height difference is very minimal, either way I understand we ideally want the record height to set the weight but that is bloody hard to get right. The closest I got was the scales on top of the platter mat it’s hard to know how close that is.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I have the Ortofon scales and a Roksan scales that seem to be just rebadged cheap Chinese Amazon scales. when using the scales on the platter I've. found that Ortofons give a reading that is nominally about 0.1 to 0.2 of gram greater than the Roksan, the Ortofon scales measuring platform seems to be closer to the platter than the Roksan by around 0.5 to 0.7mm, according to my O'level physics (admitted nearly 40 years ago) that would explain the variation in measurements, the greater the distance between and pivot point and the surface the higher the measured mass. For example when I raise the on fly adjustment to my VTA for a thicker record I also micro adjust and increase my tracking force to compensate. This is really getting into the weeds and in all reality it shouldn't make too much of difference but I'm aware of it. If a cartridge as a range of tracking force settings between say 2.0 grams and 2.5 grams with an optimum of 2.3 grams a measured difference of 2.2 gram to 2.4 grams might be audible in absolutely terms but it shouldn't effect performance or even measurement in a way that effects vinyl replay. I tend to set my TF slightly above the optimum simple because I find it negates hard treble frequencies on not so good recordings and gives a slightly more centred stereo image, this might be imagined on my part, I honestly don't know, but it works for me.
You gave this vinyl system every advantage...and still had to add a sub to get it sounding like your digital. Digital is technically and sonically better and mostly cheaper and less hassle. Enjoy the vinyl ride and the nostalgia and the engineering mate....but you know and i know that you'll be back on the superior pure digital music system eventually. :-)
To be fair I am reviewing digital now and I feel the same about the subwoofer for it, so maybe it’s just a very good subwoofer that adds a lot to my speakers. That’s what hard about this job as you can’t know what you haven’t experienced yet
In my experience, some of the cheap scales are affected by the cartilage, they will change value the closer it gets. That is what they show correctly for the weight, but not the cartridge. This effect varies a lot, seems much worse on MC likely to more magnetic force, I didn’t even notice with basic MM cartridges.
That is interesting I would never have thought of that
An audio dealer I know has said that cheaper scales that contain metal parts will interact with magnetic fields in Moving Coil cartridges and will report inaccurate VTF. This will not be a problem/less of a problem with Moving Magnet cartridges that have smaller magnets. YMMV
My budget (and the fact that I am deaf in one ear) means I can only justify a system that would, at best, be described as an early-mid tier system in the serios audiophile community. But I love it.
The analogue chain starts with a Rega system (Ania MC cartridge mounted to a current gen Planar 6 turntable, into the Aria phono stage) ending up at my Buchardt A500 active speakers. As briefly as possible, I would describe it as "Full-bodied precision".
I auditioned the cheaper "Exact" MM cartridge from Rega. Unfortunately for my wallet I could hear a difference stepping up to the Ania MC.
I auditioned multiple phono stages to see if I could hear an upgrade from my Schiit Mani 2. Unfortunately for my wallet, I could hear an improvement with every stage I listened to (the Mani is a fab little stage for MM, and can hold you over for a bit on the move up to MC, but you'll want to upgrade from it eventually). The frontrunners (in my budget) with the Rega Aria were the Dynavector P75 and Chord Huei. I felt both had greater transient attack and macro-dynamics than the Rega Aria but I was willing to give that up for the greater body and sense of overall "oneness" that I heard with the Aria/Ania/P6 combination. The Aria and Huei were, to my ear, similar with level of detail resolution but the Huei presented detail in an almost etched digital-sounding way compared to the Aria's more organic natural analogue-y way.
A benefit I encountered that you would have missed out on with your system is that, by staying in the Rega ecosystem, the Rega phono stage was designed with Rega MC cartridges in mind so it is able to provide the correct amount of gain required for the cartridges - in the case of Rega MC carts that's a whopping 69.9dB of gain! As such, my digital and turntable front ends are producing the same output levels and I don't have to mess with the volume control on my system when switching between sources.
Good luck with your ongoing vinyl journey!
Scales differ according to physical height of scale higher scales cause the tonearm to load down pressure on the scale. You need to have tonearm parallel to scale surface
Pay attention to compliance and tone, arm weight I suspect base is very dependent on the tone arm and the cartridge being compatible, high compliance cartridges, like light toneArms most moving coil cartridges are low compliance and tend to do better in S-shaped heavier tone, arms such as technique type of tone, but they were tone arms such as
Thanks I didnt know this - what constitutes high or low compliance??
I have just realised that they are two different types of scales, the Chinese one has the scale very raised while the Ortofon is very close to the mat which means no matter how you will try to use them you will always have a big difference because every time the tone arm will go lower on one and one the other one not that low meaning that one one the arm presses more than on the other. Took me long enough to get but there it is , the only difference is how they were built, they do the same thing apart from the Chinese one which can only weight up to 5 grams
Yes but the difference in height is small but the weight difference they show is big - so I think this is important to pay attention to
I’m an electrician, I fitted an earth spike TT system to my LP12 ,
Very interesting video in fact an excellent insight to to world of vinyl play back an exceptional video. Your speakers need an up grade. Speakers will let you hear what's going on. No need to had the sub woofer. Ground hum Russ Andrews is a good place to look .
Synergy is the key but remember everything is a compromise it will never be perfect it will only ever come close to be perfect. Too many variables. I can see you chopping and changing things constantly because you won't do things to thr right order. You've ended up all over the place. Be it on your wallet. Go back to the beginning and start again. Follow the vinyl rules. Don't get carried away with having the most expensive gear. Take small steps. When your happy with what you hear stop anything else will just be different not better. Good luck with your vinyl journey it could go on for ever. Stick to the rules Terry.
Never underestimate what the subwoofer can do Mark, I transform peoples system all the time with how I use them and my system is no different
You should investigate the Puritan Groundmaster City and their Routemaster. Might help with your background noise issue.
I will thank you
As others may have mentioned, your phono preamplifier gain, if only 50db is a little low. Check out the new Schiit Skoll. Up to 70db of gain, and all adjustments can be made on the front panel, or better yet, with the remote.
Another possibility would be the use of a SUT, (step-up transformer) .
I think low gain manifests in all your subsequent problems.
JMHO, I'm no expert.
I tried another phono stage I have here up to 70db of gain and that was better in some respects worse in others so yes I think the gain is important but not necessarily just the answer on its own. However a step up could be a good thing to consider I will consider that also
So other than scratch your heads what are we gonna do. Terry if you could feature one or to on your channel that would be amazing. We are on the some page. Happy hunting. I will research more into it. Its the sound signature that would be the guess for me, try before you buy but no one demos these any more.
Now i've got my digital front end sounding how i like it i hardly use the Gyrodec/PSU/SME v/Ortofon MC. It's just not worth the hassle and faff...but it can be magic at times. I do convert the analogue to digital to allow the same PEQ/Room correction and i use atc active scm50 and a REL 812 sub for both digital and vinyl front ends. If anything the vinyl has more bass...or rather on further experience and listening...a richer but less defined accurate bass than the digital front end....Bass is mono on vinyl too which may be a factor. If my mc cart breaks i cant easily or cheaply retip it or replace the mechanism like MM carts so that would be £2k plus to get an equivalent new one. I'll be flogging the gyrodec arm mc etc and spending the money on the rest of the system.
Not really sure where you live but if you ever find yourself near Bracknell I will gladly have you for some vynil listening session and maybe some tips and thoughts exchange 😊
I am the other side of town sadly but I will check out the micro Benz
The higher gain you go the worst it is to get it sounding good , it does my head in ,
The higher gain the more the problems are going to stand out for sure, stands to reason it’s amplifying them much more
@@PursuitPerfectSystem it’s great watching your turntable journey
I have had luck with Dynavector. Even in the lower end. That said the cantvaliver can be fragile!
Terry back when I was younger transformers were the norm 1970s and 80s. Now days not to many people know about them. I'm in the market for one myself. There's not many to choose from.
Bot which one do I go for.
Cartridge loading range has to be right, Ortofon st-70 I'm looking at as a starting point, but I just don't know. Quadratic mc-1 is another. Hope you share your findings.
I would like to upgrade from Linn adikt mm to Linn Krystal mc, I won't to keep my naim nait 50 it's a keeper. Choosing the right transformer is for me going to be a guess.
I could possibly get an ortofon here to test, I saw someone recommend a phasemotion 500 and I was looking at that and then 10 others used and new and ended up eyeing up the quadratic mc1 too but £1800 is a lot of cheddar
Where does the law of diminishing returns come into play when buying a cartridge? This is my first time watching this channel. I'd never heard of Bergmann, but since the website doesn't list prices I have to assume I wouldn't ever be able to afford one! I have a Rega P2 with an AT-VM540ML....my first "real" turntable. I've seen MM carts that cost several times the cost of the table. Would the equivalent or double the price be more than sufficient?
That is a great question, I would love to be able to answer it but I dont have enough experience at the moment. I have made several videos with manufacturers where they talk about the challenges of TT design and its very interesting stuff. Thanks for watching and I hope you stick around to watch some more.
A ground between the preamp and the phono should be all you need to eliminate hum. 60 to 66db gain is what you want for lomc. Loading around 100 ohms works for most cartridges.
The pre is passive so I dont think that would work in this system
If the pre has a ground post then it's worth a try.
Yeah it doesn’t otherwise I would have hooked that up as well, so it would have meant connecting to a case screw
Also a shibata stylus is very sensitive to VTA but not sure how that adjusts with a linear tracker, but if you can adjust, it will make a difference in tonality.
@@YAMAHA808 thanks, yeah you can adjust it, maybe I need to look at it more closely thanks for the tip I didn’t know that
Yes lots of options but frustrating at times. What let's vinyl play back down is modern day new recordings all from pcm digital masters they lack the analogue vinyl magic.
Older 70s records all pure analogue from start to finish the best of analogue will be found here. The best cartridge and phono stage can not put it back. But everything can make a difference. Good recordings are a must.
The equipment will make shine. So find it is a all new story.
Usualy with Mc cartridges is best to use an SUT and you should know that all other the cartridges have a break in period of time .
Yeah I haven’t explained step ups yet, I will look into that. This cart is a review sample and I was told it was reviewed by another publication before being sent to me so I assumed it had a life before it came here. Impossible to know how much of a life though but yeah thanks for the suggestion
@@PursuitPerfectSystem and if you like different types of music like from electro to jazz i would suggest to look in getting a Benz Micro cartridge, boron canteliver, microridge diamond cut which is the closest cut to the one that is cutting the lathe for record pressing, that will amaze you and for half the money, i for one have a Benz Micro Ace SL and i can gladly demo this one for you.
Ah the wonderful world of vinyl! Didn't take you long to move up the kit tree, my friend.👌
One question, using that test, how do you know the more expensive scales are the accurate reading? or am I missing something?
For the foreseeable future, I'm sticking to my Goldring 1042 through my Remton 383 mk 1 phono stage😉.
Perks of the job allow me to move so fast, its different to a normal situation. I dont know the more expensive scales are more accurate, I have to assume they are at the moment
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.
Jim 🏴🙂
What one did you find Terry. Yes they are expensive but if needs most.
Yo were saying you needed to turn the passive preamp volume control right up maybe you would benefit from a step up transformer what do you think.
Yeah I didn’t know about them until this video where a few people have recommended them so I have been looking into them. It seems like some phono stages build them in and that is what is in the phono I am using but 50db of gain is not enough. So I have been looking at various options, but one problem with a step up is it’s hard to get one that would be flexible as I would want it to work with different cartridges. I have found one but it’s not cheap.
At the same time I have been reaching out to try some different phonos too.
I also bought myself a new record cleaner for Xmas so I need to take stock and look at one thing at a time :)
@PursuitPerfectSystem fidelity research made a good one back in the golden days of vinyl available only as second hand, three types to choose the right loading. Dealer don't have the knowledge now days.
For really cheap with maximum band for buck in mm naogoka
Analog is not plug and play... there are tons of variables where things can go wrong. My J.A Michel Gyrodec I regard as a mucical instrument where anything you do with it ends up having an effect on sound.
Yeah that was the point of my conclusion really this is all very sensitive gear that requires you to work hard to get it bang on. That’s where the frustration comes from
It sounds as if you did not set the loading correctly in your phoni unit. Did you try the recommended 40 Ohms? If you forgot and left it at the MM setting of 47k, then it may sound too bright. Also the cables from cartridge to phono unit must be low capacitance, your regular RCAs may not be the best match.
There are no loading options on this phonostage it auto sets it for the cartridge so it wasn’t that or at least I couldn’t change that. It was fine on another cartridge so I am sure it works ok
The problem with modern higher end cartridges are they are really hot. Having to add a woofer to me is ridiculous. Maybe hifi makers need to look at vintage setups and add better mids and lows to amps and speakers? Having spent all that cash you would expect perfection.
OK, don't forget the title of the video vinyl for beginners. The sub woofer needed to be in place before you got going. Vinyl for beginners not sub woofers. Now you have the sub in place you can now just focus on the vinyl front end. You have set an index to work from.
Vinyl all the way. I like my linn lp12 ha e you ever tryed one.
This is not really for beginners at this level, I am the beginner that is what that is referring but yeah get the point
By all means add a sub woofer but you should get good sound without one you added one because you were disappointed with that you were hearing with just thr missions. Your on a vinyl journey adding sub woofer is more to do with the room your listening in your the main speakers lack low end. Now you have the sub woofer in place just focus on the vinyl front end. Record deck arm and cartridge. If you've got a good phono stage stick with it.
Yeah I agree the balance here was not quite right at least for my lofty high expectations, however with the rel on you wouldn’t know it was on as the blend was seamless so using the sub to support the vocal range is a very real thing. People often waste their subwoofers by only using them set very low in freq, they can do a lot more than that
@@PursuitPerfectSystemI agree. I do prefer when the mains have enough weight so the subs can be blended low, but a lot of times it’s very useful to blend them higher (due to room acoustics, placement or whatever). That said my main hesitation against getting into vinyl is all the lean, mid forward/centric examples of vinyl on CZcams.. and my brief experience seems to suggest that it’s so easy to get into that territory, changing phone stage, matt or cartridge.
Try Linn Lp 12 👌
Haha not for me ta I prefer the air
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry there might be an element of breaking as well, I bought a cartridge for my LP 12 and it sounded terrible for a while but then slowly broken in ,it’s absolutely fine now. I’m just getting into vinyl now I absolutely love the sound so different to my digital. I bought an immaculate well looked after 1981 Linn Lp 12 it cost £1000 probably the best thousand pound I’ve ever spent in my Audio it sounds great. You’ve made me think I was going to spend £1400 on a Dynavector xx2 but I’m taking stock of your experiences there is many factors to consider mainly I have a built-in phono stage would it be good enough for the DV. keep posting about vinyl I love it. 👍
Love your videos but a subwoofer fixed your turntable music? What a funny hobby we have?
Just depends how you look at it, I use subwoofers to compliment the speakers so the speakers sound bigger and more how I want them to for their full bass delivery. Not just for the very bottom octaves of bass. In most rooms bass from 40-300hz is very poor from speakers due to the rooms acoustics and you can make a big improvement to this with subwoofers so long as they are time aligned and setup well.
I’m surprised you went for that cartridge
There are so many have to start somewhere, this is a great one to start with I think
Very interesting video. Without wanting to be a dick, I think you might be overthinking this. It doesn’t make sense - to me at least - that the subwoofer made the difference you were looking for. If a system at this price level, isn’t sounding sublime without the subwoofer, then the system is fundamentally flawed, and if the phono stage is so sensitive to being close to other components, then that’s just poor design, regardless of price, but especially unacceptable at this price level. Those Mission speakers don’t need a subwoofer to produce excellent sound, and they couldn’t have been the missing link by themselves. There’s something else going on here I think
Let me explain I could use the subwoofer to balance the system better overall, so yes in an ideal world the system would be balanced already and then the subwoofer would be used to enhance the performance, however I was trying to demonstrate what’s possible to do with a subwoofer in terms of looking at the whole systems sound and balance. This is what I am professional in so know this all very well
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thanks for the reply and for the extra info. I use a REL sub on my system too, and it improves the sound in all areas, as well as the bass, but the system sounds good without the sub too. The phono stage placement sensitivity is odd tho. I understand well enough, that equipment needs to be well matched, but surely even lower end equipment should be able to work close to other electronics? That’s a very expensive phono stage and I’d not be satisfied if it couldn’t function next to the other gear. I have an ancient Lentek phono stage worth a fraction of the price, that can function anywhere. I enjoy listening and exploring HiFi that is out of my price range, but surely it should function better than lower end equipment, otherwise, you’d be foolish to buy it? I’m not trying to troll you, or be a knob, I’m just curious. Great channel 👊🏻
I tested the IFI zen phono too and it was doing the same thing so its maybe just a strong magnetic field going on here
You think Ortofon scale is more accurate than the cheap one because Ortofon scale is more expensive? That's not scientific conclusion.
I believe both use piezoelectric pressure sensor and similar parts for the circuit.
Its just my guess but both are made in China.
It is possible that Ortofon took extra time to calibrate the scale so it can be more accurate, though I doubt it.
We can't just say Ortofon scale is accurate than the cheap scale unless you bring in the 3rd reference and do the comparison.
I used the words I have to believe the Ortofon is the more accurate especially as it’s plate is much closer to where the record is and it sounded more correct to me as well. It’s not just because it costs more.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thanks for the response.
>it’s plate is much closer to where the record
Okay, I missed that part. That's interesting difference. It can explain why they measure slightly different. Not either one is more accurate but simply different.
> it sounded more correct to me
I heard it you said that in the video. But that's your subjective opinion. I'm perfectly okay you saying that and you prefer Ortofon scale. But it doesn't tell the one is more accurate than the other as a scale, measurement device.
Don't want to be or need to be picky. I enjoy your channel a lot. That's important to me. Thanks again.
With all due respect, you should not have to add a sub woofer to get great bass, there is something wrong here. Your YBA most probably does not have enough gain or they've went more downhill than I thought, 0.4mv is nothing special for a low output cart, they originally made great gear. I'm sure with your connections you should be able to borrow a good quality 1.10 step up transformer or a better suited phono stage.
I agree it should have been a little better balanced out of the box as it were and something is not balancing here hence the whole point of the video. However I wouldn’t underestimate how much a difference the subwoofer makes and also how high my sonic expectations are from the sound I get from digital in this room. There is a lot to consider here but I would want to add subwoofers to most systems and most of the vinyl systems I have heard.
Did you loose some weight!?
Haha I am on a diet yes, I didn't think it would be that obvious though, thanks for noticing
Did you lose some weight? Oh my goodness, is it really necessary to be asking that? Anyway, great explanatory for all vinyl enthusiasts. It's also good to know that you take wireless bluetooth audio very seriously these days aswell, since it's incorporation into many modern turntables.
Thanks for the video. I see in the video that when you setting the VTF and you use the Ortofon scale your stylus tip is not put down on the scale in an optimal point. That is enough to get a different VTF. I don't really think it's a big difference between the two scales as long as you use them right. Take a look at this video then you see what I mean. czcams.com/video/tGkHiVCGqHE/video.html
That not where the instructions tell you to place the point of measurement, but if you use the very edge like in the video the weight is higher so the difference is even bigger.,
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Ok. I don't have the Ortofon scale so I can't really talk about that one, but saw that video and wanted to inform you about it. The scales are very sensitive and if you breath a little to hard they will be picking that up and if there is any magnetic interference that will also be picked up by the scales 😎🤘 PS. and I see you have your mat on when you use the scales. That should not be on the platter when you set the weight. You need a sturdy place to put the scales on. But any how, I love to watch your videos. You come a long way in very short time. I love your gear. Good luck.
Yeah that was a concern for me with them if you move the measurement point the weight changes, they seems counterintuitive to me for a set of scales but I appreciate its a trade off for getting the platter to measure on thats lower than the scales themselves
No you don't want to earth it to the mains sounds like you've got some ground loop Earth problems just make sure the mains for the turntable is Earth the motor, the cartridge grounded just to the phono stage, should be fine, there is no men's Earth on the phono stage you don't want it you don't need it the grounding comes through the case and the RCA connection
sounds like your leads are not very good as well from the turntable and maybe from the phono stage if picking up noise. Make sure they are triple shielded microphone cable ideally 43 ohms don't go for this nonsense hi-fi cable not up to the job you can use balance cable but still needs to be double shielded minimum and connect to the RCA plugs on the end ideally locking ones try and get silver connectors. The only company that's worth considering getting ready-made connecting cables is chord cables. Ring mains in the UK are problematic for hi-fi ideally you want to use a 3 mH inductor on your Earth cables. I would look at the turntable might be your biggest problem here, you might be getting motor noise don't keep it on the hi-fi line the operational side of the turntable try and find a different circuit for it that's not necessarily different socket that could help if it's away from the hi-fi side of it but ideally I completely different line. could use an isolation transformer as well I think the pump circuitry is making noise that's what you picking up more than motor noise from the turntable motor, could be both, disconnect the pump and see if the noise goes away that will tell you then you got to isolate it you can buy on on auction sites cheap isolation transformer means conditioner made by BT should pick one up for £50 connect the pump into that and turntable usually have two English mains sockets on them.
Everything in the system is already isolated and the cables are all tellurium q statement some of the best you can get. But thanks for the suggestions
Yes but you're neutral and Earth's will not be isolated. Try turning off the turntable pump and see if your hum goes away making sure the stylus is on the record when you do this@@PursuitPerfectSystem
Yeah good point I will test that just to make sure or to see if I can get any extra gain, thanks very much
Volume at near maximum high is very bad for you and your audio system guy!
Not with this system and a passive pre amp it’s very different to an active pre amp