Germany debates over prenatal testing for Down syndrome | DW News
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- čas přidán 10. 04. 2019
- In Germany, attention is focusing on a prenatal blood test that can leave expectant mothers facing a moral dilemma. That test determines whether an unborn child has Down syndrome (also known as trisomy 21). Now the German Parliament is debating whether the fetal test should be covered by public health insurance. Although genetic testing has been around for years, the payment issue has triggered a deeper debate about society's acceptance of children with genetic defects. Associations for people with disabilities are strongly opposed. They say this sends a signal that people with Down syndrome are unwanted.
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It's the prerogative of the parents.
Shay mccay dark wood cabinet
I see a lot of comments about God’s place in this debate. I am currently 13 weeks pregnant with a baby who tested 91% positive for Down’s on NIPT. The NT ultrasound scan showed increased/thickened NT, another “soft” marker for Down’s. My OB will not abort without an amniocentesis which can only happen (medically) at 16 weeks or later. Then we have to wait for results (2-10 days). I have been sick and vomiting all day for over 2 months while trying to care for my 22 month old daughter - and now have to wait another month for a definitive diagnosis via amnio. I was sick until 24 weeks with my daughter and expect the same here.
This means if we decide not to continue, we could be aborting as late as 20 weeks. It’s truly a horrifying thought. It makes me beg to God about how to proceed. We don’t have the financial means to provide the types of therapy a Child with Downs would need and also provide the stimulation our other gifted child deserves. We make too much for any govt disability assistance (the bar is very low, you must make less than $55k/year total income for married couple with 2 children). Where does this leave us? Financially destitute with a gifted child who never got what she needed to reach her full potential.
When the discussion comes back to God I always think about this: We don’t see Down’s children written about in historical texts, depicted in historical art or images… why is that? It’s because of the 45% that actually make it to term, they rarely lived past a year or so due to major heart, brain and digestive defects. If it was left to God, there would be no Down’s adults. But we play God by doing emergency cesarean sections, keeping premies in the NICU, open heart surgery, heart transplants, and bowel surgery, etc. So either way, we play God. We either abort them and play God, or we extend their life unnaturally and artificially and thus play God. With that in mind, the most Godly thing to do then would be to let them live as long as their natural life allows without any artificial intervention…no pulling them out if they’re in distress in utero, no life support as newborns in the NICU, no surgeries….and then we would see all Down’s dying as infants or toddlers.
This was a really well written comment. Thanks for sharing your story. Towards your point in how we play god regardless, it is an insightful one that I had not thought about in that way before.
Parents have the right to raise their children in cults and other extreme forms of religion, and yet people still want to question a mother's right to bodily autonomy.
It has to be the parents’ choice since they are the ones who will deal with all of the stress and hardship, not just for them but their other kids and family members. If they died, who would take care of the down’s child? Many remain at a mental age of 5-12 years old their whole lives and will always need care. You can’t demand people do it.
No, but they can give up for adoption? Over here there are waiting lists of people waiting to adopt babies with Downs.
@@hilarywhatley1335 I find that very difficult to believe
@@hilarywhatley1335 than why we still have orphan houses and animal shelters? People like you have universal answers to all kinds of difficult questions “somewhere there someone is waiting” the life is hard and your romantic thinking doesn’t face the reality. It’s hypocritical to say so, you can’t judge someone from aside
True
@@hughle9913 probably cause you've never even pointed your big toe towards an adoption center or orphanage lol
Whomever willingly has a child with severe disabilities must realize that their adult child will be at the mercy of whatever quality of services that are available to them, or even if services are available to them, when the parents are long in their graves. Europe focuses strongly on productivity and the ability to contribute to society. I'm not surprised in the least that eugenics plays a part here
Yeah she lucky she’s In Germany that kid will have benefits it’s whole
Life. Still selfish to have a baby like that. They test and tell you for a reason. Helps society to having all normal babies. Less money spent on what would millions of defect babies. In the USA they don’t test at all, and it’s messed up, there not kids for ever, so many Down syndrome people in homes after there parents leave them after adulthood. Americans don’t understand it for life. Very selfie letting them be born. In the USA they don’t insure those kinds for there whole life, they have no benefits in adulthood and are at the worlds mercy when they turn 18. Europe is very advanced and awesome for the testing so you have a normal baby and know it’s coming and if if the test detects a defect, you are able to terminate. It’s just common sense. Why would you want Down syndrome kids to be born? Iceland is awesome they already eradicated down kids/babies. Very advanced. USA is a 3 world with all the downs walking around. One of the best tests ever invented. If you have test the done and still have the kid , that family should get no type of government benefits and help whatsoever. The tax payer shouldn’t be burdened with that. If you have the test and it’s a normal kid , the family should get the government benefit provided.
@@Bando-fx4mfGets benefits? poor people in Germany. They’re stuck with that after the mother is gone. Only problem with it is when screening comes out wrong, but sacrifices must happen. Especially if it betters society and the testing.
Definite echos of 80 or so years ago… :/
If you made your choice why shouldn’t other women have that same opportunity to choose what’s best for them.
Do whatever you want man. If I was pregnant and the fetus was diagnosed -- yes, they can diagnose it, not just screen for it -- I'd have an abortion even if it was a flight away.
Same 100%
I agree. People get upset with this but I work with people who have neurological disabilities and many tell me their family not being able to test made it tough to have a child with disabilities. Many said it tore their families apart and they either tested their children or will test future kids
That's short sighted. You know, I was pregnant and wondered what I would do. And then I had my son, who was diagnosed very young with moderate autism. I am so so glad I kept him. He is the joy of my life. And he's doing very well, way better than the doctors told me he would do. I'm also a special education teacher and have worked with Downs kids. They are the happiest people on the planet, let me tell you. They have lives worth living! And they will tell you so! Why is it that they can be aborted up through the entire 9 months, but regular babies cannot be aborted after a certain time frame in most situations and places? It seems discriminatory against people with disabilities if you ask me.
@@hilarywhatley1335 your decision was taken from you as you could not make an informed one. Down syndrome and autism are different in that way. I am glad it worked out for you but my opinion remains unchanged. Saying you have a happy kid downplays the difficulties a families who raise autistic children, who wish they knew beforehand so they could make an informed decision. You are the
only short sighted one here.
@@ruxaa2224 No one has the right to take the life of another human being. Just because someone has autism does NOT give anyone else the right to take their life. That's called murder.
There are other people in the world who will take on the burden of a baby with disabilities. Killing is never the answer. Adoption is a loving answer.
Well she had no choice, 7 months is way too late. I froze my embryos and did testing. One of them had some genetic issues so I told them to discard it. Typically they don’t implant anyway or miscarry. I don’t want a baby with a genetic disorder and I have that choice.
Still sometimes the test is not correct.
Valid and entitled to your own opinion, but somehow that sounds so fvcked up...
Logic before emotion
Think with your heart, not your head.
@@hilarywhatley1335 Heart would be destroyed trying to raise a Down syndrome, terminating at birth is thinking with the heart and sound mind for everyone involved.
@@eugenics1008 Hey. I'm a mother... my son was diagnosed with moderate autism. I knew something was wrong during the pregnancy, but didn't know what until he was a young toddler. You can't understand until you're there, how much joy and love a disabled child will bring into your life. So much so, that I changed my entire life, my entire life, to become a special education teacher. Now everyday, by my own choice, I spend my time with kids with autism, downs, and other disabilities. Downs kids are some of the happiest on the planet, as are their parents, just because that happiness radiates. They are beautiful people. I hope someday you see that, too.
@@hilarywhatley1335 So your on a mission to convince people to accept all kinds of disability at a time when they get the chance to prevent it? Sounds morally messed up!
@@eugenics1008 No not at all. I just want people to see that people with some disabilities, like Downs and autism, have lives worth living. I understand there are other diseases, like Tay-Sachs, where abortion is a loving option.
It sounds like educating the parent and supporting either of their decisions is the way to go to be inclusive and not take sides. I don't feel like censorship of information is ever a good idea.
One big issue right now is that it's legal in most places to terminate a Downs baby at 9 months, whereas there are time limits for regular babies. I think that's discriminatory. The time for abortions should be equal.
@@hilarywhatley1335 no, it's not legal to abort that late for Downs syndrome. Stop spreading misinformation.
@@ruxaa2224 Actually, in 7 states and D.C. women have the right to abort a baby up to 9 months (up to birth) for any reason. It's discriminatory when people choose to abort for reasons such as Downs or even sex selection.
@@hilarywhatley1335 EEEEEEEEK, PEOPLE ALARM BALANCE BUDS!!!!.. HEHEHEHEHEHEHELP!!!
@@hilarywhatley1335 danny reflection on the ceiling inside a shay mccay dark wood cabinet
do people have the right to an opinion on this unless they are devoting a considerable portion of their own finances and time to providing direct support to people with disabilities?
People with Down Syndrome or any other such syndromes who have been born are humans and are wanted and must be provided for by the society but an unborn child with any of the syndrome (or without any syndrome) is the sole responsibility of the parents in question and they''re capabilities and limitations, I think. (Meaning, society CANNOT impose abortion restriction like medieval or even in some countries current times)
What about adoption? Did you know there are waiting lists in many areas for babies with Downs to be adopted? Believe it or not, people want them.
@@hilarywhatley1335 so what, it’s painful to give birth and more painful to give away a baby, it shouldn’t be forced on someone
@@hilarywhatley1335 how many orphanages and in how many different societies have you worked, to provide solution o& adoption? It might work in very rare cases, but sorry I had worked in orphanages & many boys weren’t adopted as some had one limb actuated, or were just not BABIES, but 10 year olds. Forget about developmental disability, even physical disability is not acceptable to majority fo adopters. Most children spend their entire 18 years of life in such adoption centres. If not abused, they still feel lonely and sometimes anti social
@@CapitanNaufrago well sex is no always the choice. Don’t you know that? And even if a couple plans to have a child and finds out it’s down syndromic, but the couple cannot afford that condition, what’s your solution? Adoption 😂 and you think people prefer such children for adoption😂. What a delusional woman you are. Have you adopted such a child at first place?
Yeah she lucky she’s In Germany that kid will have benefits it’s whole
Life. Still selfish to have a baby like that. They test and tell you for a reason. Helps society to having all normal babies. Less money spent on what would millions of defect babies. In the USA they don’t test at all, and it’s messed up, there not kids for ever, so many Down syndrome people in homes after there parents leave them after adulthood. Americans don’t understand it for life. Very selfie letting them be born. In the USA they don’t insure those kinds for there whole life, they have no benefits in adulthood and are at the worlds mercy when they turn 18. Europe is very advanced and awesome for the testing so you have a normal baby and know it’s coming and if if the test detects a defect, you are able to terminate. It’s just common sense. Why would you want Down syndrome kids to be born? Iceland is awesome they already eradicated down kids/babies. Very advanced. USA is a 3 world with all the downs walking around. One of the best tests ever invented. If you have test the done and still have the kid , that family should get no type of government benefits and help whatsoever. The tax payer shouldn’t be burdened with that. If you have the test and it’s a normal kid , the family should get the government benefit provided. If it’s the parents choice it should be there money choice to. They should have to come out of pocket for everything. Not fair to tax payers to take care of a defect Babie that could have been terminated for a healthy one with no born burdens.
It’s not that society doesn’t want these kids heck These kids are angels . The problem is medical cost the well being of the child once the parents are gone . When these kids don’t have parents or get abandoned they are put into the hands of the State which they can be mistreated and abused let’s give ppl options .
Bingo! People only care about the baby when it’s in the womb.
That’s not accurate though. Our friends have two Downs children and they constantly scream and have tantrums about anything and everyrhing all day. My friend has confessed he is suicidal.
@@dvsdawl my heart goes out to him. I work with people who are on the spectrum and it’s tough. I always remember to be patient with parents as they have their kids all day. Has your friend sought out therapy? If their in the United States, do they qualify for respite care ?
@@dvsdawl And they still deserve to live. If we made life-and-death decisions based on conscience, I would have ended the life of my crazy neighbors, my mother-in-law, and a couple of my coworkers.
No. Societies, advancing ones, typically want healthy children.
Parents decide, no one else business.
Killing the happiest people on earth is everyone’s business.
The unborn child's business
@@Ivan.A.Churlyuski unless u cornballs wanna help pay for diapers and all the extra expenses that come with it then no it’s not
@@KAYDE3 My wife and I have adopted three children with Down’s syndrome through our church from mothers who agreed not to have abortions. Challenge accepted.
They can decide to not have sex, or use protection. After the baby is created, it’s another person, another life.
An innocence’s murder should be everyone’s business in a sane society.
It's selfish to have children with disability and forcing a soul to live their entire life suffering. Not to mention the family of a disabled kid would have immense suffering too
God bless Anna Thissen and her girl! Hope 2023 brings them much joy and happiness.
Shay mccay dark wood cabinet jenna common denominator button smiley
Its one’s choice. You wanna keep the baby with defects thats fine but not all parents want this. So don’t expect everyone to ride the same boat with you.
Mothers choice. But don’t expect the rest of society to support you.
Society judges women no matter what, so what's the difference?
It is what a society does, support each other. You are not a compassionate person and nobody can’t expect you to be neither. But hey, karma is real.
Re: "Children like this would not exist." Not true. Kids with Downs are here & not going anywhere, many couples will still choose to give birth after a positive test, and the mutation is always going to happen.
This reminds me of the Gattaca Movie of 1997🔬
It could've been about Lebensborn.😢
She is so brave....
Shay mccay dark wood cabinet
Spartans used a cliff
Spartans also abused children. What's your point?
Most societies dispatched unwanted children that way. Drowning in swamps, bogs, mercy killing while they were still infants etc. I'm African and most tribes I know would leave undesirable babies in forests to be consumed by wild animals. Nothing new under the sun
Based spartans
@@ghristophermyers666straw man
@@l-kin3480Christ. I thought I was horrible. Be sure to keep those people there.
But how many of these diagnosis's are correct? My sister was told her baby had downs syndrome and she had him anyway and he was fine....perfectly normal baby. To me this is wrong, it is murder.
One of my favorite customers to the deli I worked at was a down's syndrome boy. He was so sweet and his whole family just loved him.
Life should be cherished and respected and held as sacred and esteemed. Life and death of a person, child or adult, should not be based on financial situations or words like 'comfort' or 'easy'.
Where do we go from here? Is it easy to take care of grandma or grandpa? Are the homeless a pest? Are the kids too noisy and rebellious?
When we stop respecting life what is left to respect in society?
It's up to the parent if they want to kill the fetus or not.
@@Bill-zp2mt if you can kill something, it means it is alive. A fetus is a baby....a human being. It is murder.
F. Santos wow with your thinking I can tell your bargain is aborted.
Easy to talk for you. How many special needs children have you adopted?
@@emilia3310 None,. Sadly, I am too poor to adopt in my country.... but my tax dollars help pay for the care of many and I'm glad that many people have decided to cherish life, respect it, and love others and work together to love life...all the living....and not deem anyone worthy of death because of a condition they may or may not have.
It's all blackpill 💊
Would also go for an abortion as well. No defective kids.
Is needing glasses okay?
This is an awesome thing. Hope it applies to all problems next
Redredred
20thbooster
@@mcgheebentle1958 you think that a 14 yr old using a bouncy house for his birthday party is okay. You have no opinion
@@youawesome2068 20thbooster
@@youawesome2068 20THBOOSTER
@@mcgheebentle1958 Kells and windmills and Shay Mccay dark wood cabinets above where there's oil and grease on the high school chemistry lab table leading to lots some complaints from classmates about that all in the different room across the hall you go in and sit down one day.
Next, trip to Andover for music competition in 2 days but then when you're on the bus and when it's a bit dark at six in the morning to go there, and hear the noise while going fast, it reminds you of compounds of the oil and orangish red grease from food
I and my wife have been pregnant eight times! Thank God abortion is legal. We only want one child and his name will be Mike.
Have you ever considered birth control? Or do you just get a power high off killing people?
@@insideyouroutsides3527 My point is, should abortion be legal based on the child's gender? Should parents abort children if it is a male or female?
@@Paul-ou1rx that's like asking if a child should be aborted based on their race, which was basically the reason Planned Parenthoodwas created in the first place
@@insideyouroutsides3527 Might be difficult for a couple to choose abortion based on race. That is assuming they are the parents.
@@insideyouroutsides3527 just don't make a kid with a baboon if you don't want a poc
Let’s be honest here. Lot of mentally and physically challenged children are born everyday. There aren’t tests for everything. It is just part of life. We have to accept our differences.
People call a person with a disability a burden… but what if your the one with a disability one day… genetic screening is disturbing in my opinion.
Indeed, people with Down Syndrome are human beings who are capable of experiencing the full range of human emotions.
"What if you're the person with a disability one day"
Then you're a burden
Disabled people are equally deserving of life unless you wanna argue that God made a mistake
Not all life is equal and not all life is worth living. Im sure most parents want their children to live a better lives than themselves.
Well now I don’t think you wanna make that kind of argument because if you believe God made us all in a specific way then we’ve definitely have some oopsies throughout history. Just think of the countless of lives that would have been saved if Stalin’s mother had fell down a flight of stairs.
@@Blue71974 sir you're a eugenicist taking part in the biggest genocide ever in human history. Stalin would be envious of how many people the abortion movement has killed.
@@-_-DatDude we're not the authors of life and the actual author is obviously much more intelligent than we are. Defer to God when he decides a life is worth creating. He can see the bigger picture since he sees the future and we can't. You have a superficial definition of what constitutes a worthwhile life (money, looks, temporary suffering etc.). I was once a poor African child but it didn't put a dent in how happy and carefree I was. I went through sexual and physical abuse but the suffering ended and I'm grateful for the gift of life. Your pessimism is costing millions of innocent children their lives while you hypocritically live yours.
@@mimmiekgaditse1517 Mimmie I'm sorry to hear about your upbringing. I don't think I'm being pessimistic at all, I think of my self as a realist.
I don't believe in the notion that all life is intrinsically valuable or that all life is the same. I think some life is more valuable than others. I could uses speciesism to nail down my point but I won't as it's the low hanging fruit. Even if we stick to the humanity my views are still the same.
Two examples...
1. I think a 1 year old kids life is more valuable than a 91 year old adult who has has had plenty of time to experience life.
2. Most developed civilisations value criminal life less than that of functioning members of society.
I personally view it as morally wrong and borderline evil to bring in life knowing full well that said life will struggle mentally and physically given the litany of health conditions surrounded with down syndrome.
Anna Thissen is a decent parent!
A woman makes the decision to have kids when she *consents* to *unprotected* sex *without the use of contraception.* That's how it works.
and then you have plan B and plan C👍🏼
@@sharonlee_333 What, may I ask, do you mean by plan B and plan C?
@@petercdowney there is a literal plan B and plan C is an abortion in cases regarding medical reasons like this
@@sharonlee_333 Medical reasons would be if there's a danger to the mother in the event of continuing with the pregnancy.
Although abortion due to pregnancy from rape is also a perfectly valid reason (because the victim wasn't allowed the opportunity to choose to become pregnant).
@@petercdowney medal reasons of the fetus dont try and be smart ill just make myself more clear for you and any mental or physical disabilities that will require 100% of time and huge amounts of funds then that to me is a fantastic reason to get ride of the fetus it won't bring any joy to ppl like me so why force this on ppl if they know they can't and won't handle it well
I see eugenics is alive and well in Germany …. here we go again
MrUra - Snide and uncalled for.
I agree with Janice McKee. This is obnoxious and uncalled for. No other country in the world has done more to atone for its past than Germany. This video is simply showing different sides of this issue and its implications in order to allow people to make up their own mind. This is what grownups do.
@@noellewest4347 but it’s still eugenics. Which the certain party did in mass. They’re right.
At no point did the original commenter say or elude that Germany hasn’t worked past that party or atoned, but the fact is many western nations have modernized, “acceptable” versions of that party’s eugenics views.
@@ifo7319 Eugeniscs schmeugenics. Point is, abortion is legal in Germany (sort of) and no way can someone allow a woman to interrupt a pregnancy only if the fetus is healthy.
It’s up to parents to choose.
I hope it tears their hearts out and fills them with grief whenever they see the unconditional love between our kids with DS and their parents. I hope the grief drags them like the heaviest hardest anchor and throws them into a lifetime of despair
you are aweful
What a miserable person you are. To force a child into the world that will always be reliant on others is something I and many others would never do. You must be a hurt person to be so bitter.
I thought we stopped Genocide in Germany.. my bad.
STFU. my body my choice.
🙌
@@carolinam6259 your body has 8 limbs and 4 eyes? Are you a spider?
@@Ivan.A.Churlyuski spooder man
@@carolinam6259 Not the point. You choose whether you want a baby. You shouldn't get to choose which baby
Special needs life’s matter
Make up mirror michael jackson porch light broken in chains
Prenatal testing for Down Syndrome is OK as long as abortion solely on the grounds of Down Syndrome is outlawed. It may allow parents to be prepared.
& then?
Will you take care of their children?
@@tasneembashir2733 then vs elmo
Then they get disability support, then you be like “communism”.