Why the Sith Philosophy Was Doomed to Fail | Star Wars Legends Lore
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 15. 08. 2020
- The Sith are some of the most iconic villains in any media, but their philosophy was... kind of dumb. Today we're breaking down why Bane's Rule of Two in particular couldn't really have led to success.
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The problem with the Sith is that their philosophy is completely antithetical to administering an organization of any size. They are only concerned with the supremacy of the self and seek conflict as a way of proving that supremacy. Once Palpatine became Emperor he pretty much had no interest actually administering the needs of the Empire. He mostly left that to the bureaucracy and spent most of his time studying the Dark Side, training Dark Side agents, or engaging in covert manipulations of his own Empire mostly out of boredom. Remember, the Galactic Republic lasted 25,000 years. The Galactic Empire only lasted about 25. This 1000x difference has everything to do with actually wanting to do the boring work of taking care of your population and managing your resources or not.
There are underlings to take care of the boring day to day matters of ruling an empire. They had the arrogant idea that only a Jedi could topple the Sith empire. And to a degree, that is kind of true, it was a (admittedly partially trained and self proclaimed) Jedi that killed the emperor and destroyed the only people keeping the empire unified.
After all, even if an apprentice managed to overthrow Sidius, that apprentice, or Vader, or some other Sith would still be the one on top ruling the galaxy.
@@cioplasmmajic8327 Philosophically the Sith only have two goals: being the best and proving they are the best. But what happens when one reaches the pinnacle? The answer is that they have nothing. No purpose. No goal. Nothing to work towards and nothing to achieve. They just do what they always do which is to do what got them to that point. The only reason the Sith ever cared about the Jedi or the Republic was that they had beaten them and thus proved they were the best. To be the best you have to beat the best, so the Sith worked tirelessly to destroy the Jedi and the Republic. But once they had done that they had no objective.
Palpatine didn't prepare to fight the Yuuzhan Vong out of any sense to defend to galaxy from death and destruction. He was more than happy to do that on his own. No, he prepared for them because they were a potential challenge he could fight to overcome. Similarly, Palpatine didn't care about the Rebels because he knew he could destroy them at any time. The reason why he went to the Death Star 2 was to face the challenge of Luke Skywalker. A being whose Force potential was greater than his own. A being who could potentially beat him. In a fight, in the Force, over the soul of Anakin Skywalker it did not matter to him. He just wanted the challenge.
All of this is to say that organizations exist to do something. For governments that's typically to administer to the needs of the population by managing the resources under their dominion. But that's not what the Empire did. It served the needs of Palpatine and all he needed was a challenge. The rest could rot for all he cared and it did. To the detriment of the organization. When you add to that members who all think in that same way no organization can last.
Itâs one thing to conquer itâs another to rule
Best analysis I've ever read on Palpatine and the Sith. Thank you.
@@ericpowell4350 You're welcome. And thank you. đ
So, the funny thing about an order based entirely around betrayal, power lust, and small numbers, you tend to create someone who won't want to share that power with another.
Thatâs why their the villains
The only Sith empires that worked were the ones were a Sith god was at the top, like the empire from TOR or the First Sith empire. Those had one guy at the top no one could beat, challenge, or question and their word was law. That's the only way this society can work.
This empire was much the same as the original empire on Korriban, and just like it crashed after Marka Ragnos' death, Vitiate's empire crumbled after the emperor was defeated.
So its basically futile lol
@@user-od7hh8qg9d all empires crash if they have no leader and no line of succession...lol
His empire fell too. Because even though he was at the top, he couldnât stay there.
The Sith always reminded me of the analogy that Tolkein used for the Lord of The Rings--the ring represents power, power corrupts absolutely, and will in time lead to its own destruction.
Nah, power doesn't corrupt, it reveals.
@@Anonymous-zd1ow like the Stanford experiment?
Seems like Plagueis had more the right idea of seeking power in the shadows while using intermediaries and proxies to achieve your goals, Palpatines flaw in his seizure of control was making himself known to people, the problem with the Sith in general is that regarding the conflicting goals between various Sith of those whom want power for the sake of it and destroy the Jedi, or those who want to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy.
There is no problems with the Sith order or our philosophy..
@@darthgorthaur258 Honestly, I think Bane pointed out some flaws that in general were good like unecessary killing or engaging in rage or destruction that doesn't benefit you, personally both philosophies of the Jedi and Sith are flawed to me, the Jedi reject their nature for control and the Sith embrace it and lose control, but try to usurp it in other ways, in a way Bane was trying to balance the emotional and destructive temperaments of the Sith that led to the infighting, but at the same time focus on destroying the Jedi and gaining personal power by not abandoning it entirely.
Palpatine had the right idea though, unlike every other previous Sith Lord who had only focused on their own personal needs. Palpatine, on the other hand, was clearly going to implement some sort of public energy plan, his campaign slogan of "UNLIMITED POWAAAAHH!!!!" reflected this quite well. This bold energy initiative would've, among other things, provided cheaper living for the general populace.
Revan was very much focused on fixing the republic
If there are only two, is there really an Order? How are you a lord of something that no longer exists? What you have are two people with fancy swords and wizardry.
marco mcdowell You could say that they were lords of the dark side, since they spend a not insignificant amount of time attempting to master and control it.
They are the unchallenged masters Of the dark side. The sith didnât need armies or mass numbers like the Jedi, just 2 that had more power than the majority of the Jedi order
To this day the fact that we don't have a novel or series of novels between the Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis is a crime. Something to look forward to if Legends gets continued.
The period of the New Sith Wars before Bane ended it is pretty unexplored too. The Knight Errant series was the only one that explored that era, and it wasn't properly finished.
The mandalorians wars was never explored either really
Great video as always, Corey!
I think it would be interesting to talk about how the Sith Empires of old were actually able to work for long periods of time. Like the Ancient Sith Empire during the Golden Age of the Sith and Vitiate's Sith Empire. Then compare those to the later Sith Empires / Domains that couldn't last more than a couple decades at most.
Ironically, I think the Battle of Exegol kinda exemplifies the problem with the Sith and ruling by fear and overwhelming power.
The super weapons that would have been unleashed would threaten the whole galaxy. It would be easy for someone on coruscant to have ignored the destruction of alderaan, but when coruscant might be in the line of fire so to speak, they're going to care a lot more.
The Sith are dependent on cultists and manipulation, not open warfare, but their entire end goal is to get into the open.
There might be hundreds of thousands of Sith cultists and supporters in positions of power, but as Lando said, "there's more of us". A mutual, existential threat will result in pretty much everyone else dogpilling against you.
Turns out basing your entire philosophy on what is essentially "fuck you, got mine" isn't a very good idea for long-term success.
I always thought that the rule of two was never implemented in a perfect way
Just like communism
@@manamejeff_8848 DAAAAMMM, mother rusia doesnt like this ajajjaja
It wasn't implemented perfectly no, but as perfectly as it could have been implemented. However there needed to have been a failsafe in case one fell out of order or in case a set of lords failed...
@@Kolonol1 im with you in this take... always need a plan B
When Bane created the rule of two he was solely thinking of the complete and utter destruction of the Jedi. Not how to rule an empire. The rule of two existed for a single purpose and once that purpose was complete it was no longer needed.
Palpatine was actually right for doing away with it to a extent and switching the to rule of one: âOne true lord of the Sith who was served by several lesser Sith and darkside rulersâ in this way such an empire could have worked if Sidious had remembered that the Sith were conflict. Without conflict they would shrivel and die, with it they would survive never should they thrive. Such is the way of the Sith and to stray from the way is to ensure self destruction.
Dennis: Listen, scheming and stabbing each other's backs is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some juvenile triangle of hate and jealousy!
Lol Monty Python and the Holy Grail reference đ€Ł
Ah yes kreia is very happy with this video
Indeed, to look at the flaws of both sides and embrace the strengths for yourself.
Does it even matter what happens after you reach your End Goal? just enjoy the victory and try to live as long as possible nothing lasts forever.
That's what Darth Vectivus did. Rather than becoming power hungry, he spent his life with his loved ones.
I think thatâs why many sith also try to achieve immortality
I feel Lucas was story wise more of a "black and white" outlook on the Star Wars universe. While I actually prefer the more shades of grey outlook on things they're not to many of those types within the Star Wars galaxy. Legends did a good job of expanding the lore but never strayed to far into characters who just existed and weren't too evil or too good. Even Han Solo wasn't what I'd call an antihero simply because once he went to the light he never really did anything shady after that. Towards the end of the legends run I feel it was headed more in that direction with Darth Cadeus and the Republic Commando series but those stories were tragically cut short in their prime imho.
I like these lore videos, please keep them up đđđ
Thank you for the great video, it's great to see some philosophy of star wars discussed in greater depth.
there is a video, I can't find it anymore and it is frustrating but this guy goes in depth in breaking down the Sith code line by line, analyzing each verse of the code and analyzing what each line means or how it can be interpreted and how to actually use the Sith Code in a more positive manner without succumbing to the Dark Side
Sounds to me like some jedi propaganda
Yeah, they are totaly spooked. Stirner Is The Highest!
I disagree towards Darth cadeus he didn't become a sith Lord for selfish reasons he willing fell to safe the galaxy and protect his daughter from the darkness he saw coming
I think that the more successful Sith of the Imperial era (Palpatine, Jerec, Hethrir, etc) were planning to overcome the mundane limitations of the Force by going the full apotheosis route and leveling up to God mode, which would obviously given them a leg up. Krayt seems to have had a similar plan in mind after he came back from the dead, though this is unclear because the Legacy comics were cut short. According to Book of the Sith and the Dark Side Sourcebook, a key part of Bane's philosophy was that by sharing the dark side among so many adherents Kaan and his followers had ended up diluting its power whereas he wanted that power concentrated in as few as possible.
As far as the Sith's ability to rule over time, this seems to basically occur as the plot demands it to. The various Sith empires seem to be capable of sustaining themselves in closed systems for hundreds or thousands of years, so the Sith likely looked at those successes and figured they could duplicate it at the galactic level. The general Sith model for warfare seems to be (as one other commenter noted) something like the barbarian invasions or the Mongol conquests where you had a charismatic warlord emerge, take over vast swaths of the galaxy, and then the Sith fall apart due to infighting upon their death, betrayal, or defeat.
One final point mentioned in both the Dark Side Sourcebook and the original Dark Empire notes is that the Sith regard normies as "inferiors" and "the weak" and essentially see them as domesticated animals at best. From their perspective, the normies should be grateful that the Sith decided to dominate and rule over them.
The Sith kinda remind me of steppe Empires all of them were extremely powerful and when focused on an objective were able to bring mighty empires to their nees however no empire was able to supplant those empires they could never rule cause the population rebelled. Of course with exception of some like the ottomans and Mughals.
Not to be that guy, but the ottomans and mughals you could argue were never really proper steppe empires/horde states, especially towards their later years..
DeanmC261993 I mean they started as steppe nomads. The ottomans surged as Turkmen tribes migrated to Anatolia and the Mughals were of timurid royal line , that started as the Barlas, a turkified mongol tribe.
LusoPictures yes they did start as such but after a while they became successors to the empires they took over and modernized and lost their horde aspects and traditions. I guess i mostly think of the ottomans as not too differently than the european multiethnic empires they competed with, with heritage of the older caliphates. They were around so long so that they fall into both categories. Sorry I got carried away
DeanmC261993 no problem. This just gets to the point of the video, the sith and the nomads were great at toppling big empires but were not proficient in ruling and ended up failing. Both were too warlike and had many strong man fighting for power
The half-hearted writing that imitates within the lore of the 'Sithari' the structure of *_secret societies_* - whether it is the Testament of Cecil Rhodes or Alfredo Pareto's embrace of Cicero's moral example on 'intimidating lions and cautious foxes' as *a model of cyclical political succession* - undermines any aspiration of the franchise toward 'high culture'.
If the perpetual struggle between 'magic schools of the bright and dark arts' were to be written as classical tragedies, *the 'Sith' under the 'Rule of Two' would have to embrace that rule as valid* and evident from historical example, as a necessity of concentrating the 'venom' of [political] influence as much as possible rather than to dilute it among the 'ungifted' and 'unmotivated' - to embrace their personal failure in an unsuccessful bid for mastership, knowing that the next student will be more promising and more determined - thereby _'refining' the order with each generation_ of a _succession_ .
Painting a convenient 'black-and-white' caricature of antagonists is why the franchise cannot evoke actual myth for it's storytelling, but must render itself to perpetual, _repetitive_ plots of betrayal and snickering, elevating the protagonist usually into a 'Mary Sue in space', hardly facing an actual challenge or crisis to mature by.
It makes sense from a realization of LUCASFILM and DISNEY as part of a 'culture industry' (Adorno), but it also explains why 'consumers' look into - and reinterprete - lore along more thorough characterizations and worldbuilding, offered by 'legends'.
The fact that *Dessel was actually **_cooperating selflessly_** with the 'Gloomwalkers' and 'Githany'* rather than being solely manipulated or scheming toward opportunities for himself contradicts the concept in lore of strictly *_splitting_** characters into either an altruistic or a malevolent idealization* - and what can't be written, convincingly as an allusion to an actual experience is likely not worth, telling as the mere _chimera_ is the symbol of nothing...
Force and cunning are not an end in itself, but valid means to overcome an restricting and hegemonic political opponent.
Within the 'Rule of Two' there is therefore implicit a concept of supremacy and *a question on the centralization of power, federalization, participation and 'checks and balances'* - which can be manipulated through lobbying until it is completely hollowed out, just the same as tyranny - and to illustrate that moment in a polity's history may be the relevant legacy of the franchise.
I know this video is about Sith... but because of the throwaway Hammerhead reerence...
I like to think that the 'Hammerhead Cruiser' is a classification of ship like 'Star Destroyer', as to clean up how long the Hammerhead is meant to be in service. As such you have the Thranta-Class Hammerhead Cruiser, Praetorian-Class Hammerhead Cruiser and the original KOTOR Hammerhead I call it the Manta-Class Hammerhead Cruiser...
I'm inclined to agree, it seems more than anything to be more of a vague design/shape that's repeatedly used by the republic, especially considering we see one of them in Rogue One. But that's also mixing Disney and EU so that's its own can of worms. Otherwise the idea of the heroes using ships thousands of years out of date seems a bit silly, even for Star Wars.
The rule of two was undoubtably the most successful philosophy, at least when considering the impact the Sith in that era ended up having upon the galaxy. The irony is that by their very nature the Sith are so arrogant that they end up becoming self destructive, meaning that no matter what philosophy they employ it ends up imploding.
Great video, does any philosophy work in Star Wars!?
Can't wait for this tapecaf!!
The Sith philosophy, was not, is not and will never be not, right or able to win...
We Sith have the perfect philosophy for an individual or the entire race of Humans or any other species for that matter but only a few of us have figured this out and know the truth for what it is
Sometimes it's not about winning, sometimes it's about revenge. Sometimes it's about seeing your enemy humiliated and defeated. And sometimes you just do it because Sith happens
@@winglessmecha you get it I see, it's good to see our numbers growing and soon I shall be able to pull an army together to impose Sith rule on this god forsaken world and lead them to a new golden age of power and empire...
@@darthgorthaur258 I wish you well in your endeavors Lord Gorthaur
@@winglessmecha our endeavours, you know the truth and I can see you rising to be a dark lord an using your power to keep your land in order to help the empire grow...we shall come out to the fore soon enough
@@darthgorthaur258 I'm sorry Lord Gorthaur but my goal does not align with yours.
I agree with 99% of this essay! The Sith can NEVER rule because they ALWAYS elicit the Primal sense of Self preservation in the subjects they rule over because of their cruelty. And as a result...just about ANYONE is a better option to Sith rule...except MAYBE the Yuuzhan vong!!!
Both the Sith and the Jedi were doomed to fail. I think Kreia demonstrated that quite clearly. Both philosophys are at odds with human nature with Sith being too agressive being offten undermind by their own hand and Jedi being too apathic to dissencourige the falls of their students.
Please stay at your current location. The Inquisitorius operatives have already been dispatched to the tapcafe you own.
If you ever branch out to a new channel, please name it Corey's Stacks of Datapads as a snarky call back to some awkward EU moments where a character's desk was covered in datapads, as if they are files or paper lol.
The sith political philosphy, in my opinion, could work in a feudal system, ala the Calimondra Clan or the Ye Olde Sith Empire. Itâs just the metaphysical revolution that happened under Vitiate sorta just kept on carrying on
Wonderful video. While I believe Darth bane made the right call in creating the rule of 2, it is obvious that it wasnât going to last forever. Letâs not forget the sith are the most selfish creatures in the galaxy, so the fact they followed the rule of 2s tenets for a 1000 years is actually quite a improvement for them, and while they didnât hold the galaxy for long, the plan did succeed for 20 years.
The problem the New Sith and the line of Bane had was the same problem as Revan and Malek: they werenât really Sith. They were just Dark Jedi. The Sith were originally a culture which existed for thousands of years, and which was able to maintain its cultural traditions even after it was taken over by Dark Jedi. That culture included stabilizing elements like honor and integrity being passions which should be tapped by force users and the ideals of tradition and service. The loss of that culture following the Galactic Wars caused the Sith to degenerate into an order which had no purpose beyond opposing the Jedi.
Wait who is the mushroom Sith in the thumbnail?
The Sith biggers flaws is their own Pride.
Darth Plagueis and maybe Darth Tenebrous would have been the only Sith who could have ruled the galaxy in a way that would have been sustainable and acceptable to life and even thrive in. In the end Sidious was a net loss for the Galaxy. But then, this is ultimately a major aspect of the longterm dark side trajectory. Netloss.
I think the only sith model that works is like the one Vitiate/Valcorian had. But the only way it works is if the the "Emperor" is not insane.
It worked under Marka Ragnos too. The only way the Sith model works is when you have someone strong enough to smack all the others down. But even then this model falls apart once the top dog inevitably dies.
@@MobiusLeader007 Yeah, I do think that the immortal ones usually die though because they do stuff that causes others to band together to kill them. I think if you are reasonable you could do a lot better.
Vitiate came closer to a true 'sith' empire than anyone else. Also, if Sidious had remained in the background, his empire would likely have lasted longer.
I have many questions......
Why have korriban not being explored before or after the clone wars ?.....this way the people will have knowledge of the pure bloods lineage !.....
Are the red skin siths : kissai, massassi, zuguruk are in exiled hidden away from the Republic ?.....
What if the pure blood / red skin sith reform the rule of 1 for conquest or the rule of 2 ?.....
Many more questions ,not I have to add for uninteresting readers and I apology for I englisch....I had to research for the names of the race pure bloods......
Colonists discovered Korriban and the other Sith Worlds almost 7000 years before the Battle of Yavin and the Republic discovered them 2000 years after that. The Pureblood Sith had been extinct for at least 2000 years by the time Darth Bane created the Rule of Two.
@@DarkVaati13 thank you this is intriguing......
The Rule of Two is patently idiotic. If the stated _intent_ of the Rule is for there two be 1 Master to embody to Power and 1 Apprentice to crave the power and to ultimately replace the Master before taking on a new Apprentice, then the Master is always incentivized to _withhold_ a measure of knowledge. Hence, the inevitable loss of much of the knowledge that the Sith once possessed. Each iteration of Master and Apprentice was _destined_ to be inferior to its predecessors. And, this is assuming that the Sith would ignore their nature and actually obey the Rule in the first place.
Plus with such a small number a drunk driver could wipe out the Sith with their speeder
@@thomaspaine7098
Yes!
It's almost like a philosophy built on being an evil, selfish, jackass isn't conducive to long term success. Huh. Weird.
Who are the sith in the cover besides Darth Vader?
Darth Bane and Darth Zannah
The failure of the Sith is hard coded into Lucas`s vision. They were never meant to succeed. Balance of the Force in Lucas`s mind means victory of the Light Side, not equality of dark and light. The Sith CANNOT win, because that is how the Star Wars Universe works. They are self destructive evil incarnate and will always fail in the end. But on the other side, the Jedi with their apathy will ultimately lead to the rise of a new Sith, and the cycle continues. Whenever the Sith "seem" destroyed, a Jedi falls and re-awakes the dark side. And even if the Jedi and the Sith are both destroyed, somewhere in the Galaxy a new Force user will continue one of the order`s, and another will rise against him. It`s an endless cycle, that always ends with the light side winning and "bringing balance". Well, at least in Lucas`s Vision, the Legends EU kinda messed around with that, Disney also messed around with that. Basically the only way to end "Star Wars" would be to eliminate all force users. But since they can spontaniously appear anywhere in the Galaxy, it`s impossible. The War amongst the Stars will forever be perpetuated by the light and the dark side.
Sith=Skaven smart but cause theyâre own destruction
I have two ideas for new Sith philosophy:
1. Deliberate free-for-all. If there's no way you can manage a Sith empire without constant backstabbing, don't even try. Have as many Sith as you want, have them go their own way and if they succeed then learn from the successes and if they fail they didn't deserve to exist to begin with. Being so decentralised the Jedi would find it very difficult to defeat all of them as more would just keep popping up.
2. Constant war. Whenever the Jedi emerge victorious they degrade into hypocrisy, arrogance and complacency. Whenever the Sith emerge victorious they degrade into a bunch of old men playing backstab roulette as the rest of the galaxy burns. The Sith are at their most powerful when fighting the Jedi and vice versa, to ensure the Sith remain at their strongest the engage in a war with the Jedi that deliberately never ends.
Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
Rule is two is neat but ultimately incredibly stupid. But so are sith so shrug
Order 66 wiped out almost all the Jedi thanks to the rule of two. This victory would not have been possible if the sith were an army. The Sith lasted a thousand years not hundreds or decades. It's not perfect but it worked
The thousand years of hiding was to accomplish a goal which lasted about 20 years. It's also not the first time the Jedi were that close to being wiped out.
@@CoreysDatapad Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya and Sion almost wiped out the Jedi once but they never humiliated them the way Darth Bane's order did. A thousand years of hiding ensured that the sith took over the republic, carefully created an army of clones, manipulated the entire galaxy into a war, turned Anakin Skywalker to the dark side and the greatest Jedi hunter ever, and finally ruled the entire galaxy for 20-something years not systems but the entire GALAXY. It might have been a short reign but it's better than nothing
@kvr Plagueis wouldn't have conceived it without some guidance from the grand plan written by Darth Bane
Well, I'd add that it only lasted a thousand years because it had plot armor. Light sabers are one-hit kill weapons, unless you're lucky and only lose a limb. Add in the Sith philosophy and the dark side's 'selfishness feels good' and there _will_ be conflict, even with only two of them. So, exceptionally deadly weapons, willingness to use them, and at no point in that millennium was there a mutual kill until (depending on who you ask) Sidious vs. Vader?
Yeah, that sounds right.
Sounds like Jedi propaganda Corey you hiding something
It doesn't seem like the Jedi order could ever last either?
This isnt the biggest problem with the Sith, the biggest problem they have is that the rule of 2 literally prevents them from ever increasing their numbers in any way. If you can only ever produce one person who can continue your art then you cant survive, because you have no redundancy. Every single time a Sith Lord dies without his apprentice to take his place the Sith order just got that much smaller, and it can NEVER recover its numbers so long as it adheres to this stupid edict. The Sith are effectively like a species that can only ever have one child, doomed to extinction just by math.
And no, you cant tell me that the objective is to have 1 singular all powerful dark side master at the end of it, because Sith die from things besides being defeated by a superior force user all the time, so there is no guarantee that a Sith Lords successor will be stronger than his master. If a Sith Lord dies because his transport ship got blown up by marauding pirates, and his successor has only been trained for 3 days, then that 3 day old Sith is now the new Sith lord because they can only have 1 apprentice at a time. There is no redundancy or backup plan to any of this, so any mishap becomes the extinction of an entire line of Sith lore.
The Sith Code is flawless. Throwing in random philosophies on top of the sith code is a gross perversion.
Sith communists
With this logic everything is doomed, tho. Sith's just pave the way for each other. Jedi's let rot fester.