Gender In Warrior Cats - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- This is a long video, but one I needed to make and have known I would need to make for over a year now. It has been months in the making, and I don’t think there’s much I could say in this description to properly summarize it. I just ask that you watch carefully, don’t jump to conclusions, and play nicely in the comments. Any blatantly sexist comments will be deleted, and harassment of anyone is never something I will condone. Thank you for watching.
Patreon: / sunnyfall
Bluesky: bsky.app/profile/sunnyfall.bs...
Paws of Stars Fanfiction: archiveofourown.org/series/18...
Contact Email: sunnyfall99@gmail.com
Discord Server: / discord
Trip Through Time: • Trip Through Time
Frecklewish Website Article: warriorcats.com/content/artic...
Kirikerise Frecklewish Video: • does frecklewish deser...
Moonkitti Frecklewish Video: • Frecklewish Logic
Bright Guardian Akira Frecklewish Video: • The Warrior Cats Team ...
The Prophecies Begin Video: • The Prophecies Begin -...
Thrushpelt Video: • The Balance of Thrushp...
Thank you to DuplexBeGreat and Lightflame for compiling many of the linecounts and wordcounts that I used to create my statistics.
End Card Song: Ponte de Abril - Steve Adams • Video
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
3:38 Presence in the Books
15:10 Roles and Characterization
19:45 Antagonists
22:48 Leadership Roles
26:14 Mates and Kits
40:41 Comparison With Toms
52:47 The Two Problem Arcs
58:01 Parallel Situations
1:05:01 Hurting Toms Too
1:08:51 The Contrary Example
1:11:17 Moving Forward
1:17:34 End Card - Krátké a kreslené filmy
the one thing that has always infuriated me about warriors is the trend that female cats either die young or eventually become mothers and fall into the “sweet, laid back, caring mother” personality
Yes! Exactly!
YES
no bc literally i cannot think of a singular she-cat who 1. didnt die too young to have kits or 2. lived long and didnt have kits
@@dianacutie99 i legit gave myself a headache trying to think and i only turned up with mousefur 😭
@@rxraltzna mousefur is our aroace icon i love her 😭😭😭😭
I'm still mad about how they wrote squrrielflight's temporary leadership role. Put simply, the warriors refused to respect her, but immediately respected Graystripe the minute he stood up and spoke. Really irks me.
Ikr, she was the deputy for years, and it was a no-brainer that one day she would be leader. Then her own son (now her deputy) starts victim-blaming her for being tricked by Ashfur and makes the whole clan divide in two(note that Squirrelflight was almost striped from her deputy status when she voiced a different opinion from her leader in Squirrelflight’s hope, and nobody sided with her). Then, Graystripe, that came back from his little trip to decide whether he wanted to be part of the clan or not, is immediately given the uttermost respect and everyone listens to him almost as if he never left the clan to “think” for one whole month.
@@WEYffles Squilf deserves to not be with ashfur or brambleclaw tbh
@@WEYffles This makes me so mad 😤
@@humanbeeing4780 she raised lionblaze and Jayfeather so technically they are both her nephews and sons, both terms apply (I would’ve used adoptive son personally though)
And Thornclaw has the gall to whine about how every leader has been Firestar's kin.
My brother in Christ not only is nearly all of ThunderClan descended from Firestar at this point, Firestar saved your ass from being one of Brokenstar's apprentices and also saved ThunderClan from collapsing. Maybe give his daughter, who helped the Clans find their new home, a goddamn chance eh?
In defense of Brightheart: I think her quietness is to be expected. She most likely has a lot of ptsd and trauma from the dog attack and losing swiftpaw. You can't expect someone with a past like hers to be all spunky and outgoing. With a lot of the others, though, you're ABSOLUTELY right in terms of the idea that they are stock characters - a ton of cats are stock characters in wc.
Why can't she be outgoing. She can just move on especially in warrior cats were cats mental health never gets really bad in people don't have their trauma be the top priority and always think about it and everything is a trigger because of ptsd. What I'm saying is like yellowfang for example. You never really hear of a cat that gets like real sucidally depressed from trauma. Plus what I'm saying is your trauma doesn't determine your entire personality. I wasn't saying trauma can't impact you forever I was saying it doesn't have too be like your life revolving around it. You don't have to completely stop living and throw everything to the garbage just because of one stupid event even though obviously you can. Brightheart being outgoing would just prove she's a tough cat. Like you don't have cats developing personality disorders or something like a former abused child getting mad at there boyfriend for betraying them even though they didn't or"feelings of worthlessness". Just basic mainstream issues kids can understand plus there's never been any vivid suicide unless you can see through that scene when yellowfang didn't fight brokenstar when she was about to die like seriously I can't believe I'm the only person who interpretated it that way.
@@redpanda881 you quite literally can't move on from something _that_ traumatic. it's not something you can switch on and off, and while everything likely isn't a trigger to her, you lose a part of yourself once you've experienced that, especially at her age.
@@lynnxx1744 Seriously, what’s wrong with you to think that just because cats die a lot (not as much anymore sure but whatever) that a cat can just move on from trauma? Her timidness makes so much sense, I would be too. Not only did she experience something so horrible, she had to deal with being renamed for her injury, having to re-learn how to hunt, and dealing with body image issues as a result of her scarring and missing eye. Roman soldiers had PTSD, Medieval knights had PTSD. Just because life sucked doesn’t mean shell shock just ceased to exist up until WWI.
Btw my cat's name is Sunny and she looks exactly like their character but with yellow eyes!!! SHE'S LITERALLY IN MY PROFILE PIC RN I'M NOT LYING TO YALL
@@redpanda881 “where cats’ mental health never gets really bad” did you not read the very first series where we watch Bluestar completely fall apart
The series started off with a great gender balance. It felt like there was no real difference between she-cats and toms except that she-cats occasionally took time to raise kits. However, the gender divide has gotten a lot worse as the series has went on.
I meeaan considering Mousefur was the only female warrior in ThunderClan idk about that
@@riverstaffordshire4312 True, but that was just a set-up to provide for new characters in the future. I don’t think it had any ill intent.
Disagree. It's ways been tinged with misogyny
@@flask223 Certainly, but it's gotten much worse than the simple tint it used to have
Just want to tell you that my cat's name is Sunny and she looks exactly like their character but with yellow eyes!!! CHECK MY CHANNEL!!!
I'd like a story where a male medicine cat has a forbidden relationship and kits 😊 Not to add to the "Let's have more stories about males" I notice that after writing 😅 I just wish we could let males focus on their kits and family drama
Omg I love that idea it would be so cute 🥺
Imagine his mate is a big girlboss and hes just like. A soft lil boy. And she protects him if they get found out. And they sneak out to meet each other and everything 🥺
This is why I kind of Wish Velvet and Alderheart were explored more. The entire plot of their short lived feelings for each other seemed like very pointless filler but imagine if they got together and Alderheart had to focus on a family.
We need more stories where toms struggle with kits! I’m so tired of the toms getting to ignore their kits even if the mother dies. (And.. if every tom ignores his kits anyway then why does the medicine cat rule still apply? Seems a bit weird. Not saying they should be left off the hook but its.. strange. Considering how the rule exists because a medicine cat needs to provide equal attention and care, and cannot do that with kits.)
I feel like that would be much easier to hide for a male medicine cat. It probably wouldn't be seen as taboo as it would for female medicine cats because fathers seem mostly uninvolved in the raising of their kits throughout the series. (you know, minus greystripe or Firestar.) The medicine cat wouldn't have to give up much if any of their valuable time to said kits, so the clan probably wouldn't suffer. I'm sure he would get a side eye from his clan, but I don't think much else would come from it.
@@pillowmoment that happens irl
Is it just me, or is Mousefur the only ThunderClan she-cat from the main series who became an elder without having kits?
Yeah I don't think she ever had kits .
yeah and she was friends with Longtail, which male/female friendship isn't something warriors is particularly good at- which is why Mousefur and Longtail are my two favorite cats
@@robynflame5473 honestly same. I love them both dearly
@kitqwq Purdy is a male. I was talking about female characters.
@kitqwq *she-cat*
In Yellowfang's case, I think it's terrible that StarClan themselves set off to punish and then actively blamed Yellowfang for falling in love and starting a family by _killing_ two of her kits and giving her one pure evil one that goes on to commit many crimes.
StarClan genuinely blames Brokenstar's entire existence on Yellowfang and the fact she had to 'atone' for her actions by enduring his awful treatment of her for most of his life, then later killing him herself *twice* just because she fell in love and had kits against the code is actually tragic and terrifying.
Literally most, if not all she-cats who break the romance code in the series are severely punished in some type of way or other while the toms more or less get a slap on the wrist and it's honestly very upsetting.
EDIT: Gonna make a long comment even longer by adding some examples.
_Bluestar_ has a mate and kits with Oakheart as a warrior. She was forced to give up her kits (with one of them DYING due to the authors having her take them out into the freezing cold) because otherwise she would have had to give up her shot at being deputy against Thistleclaw because she was a QUEEN. Oakheart, meanwhile, gets off scott free and gets to keep his position as deputy AND raise his kits.
_Dovewing_ has a mate and kits with Tigerstar 2.0. She is judged harshly and branded as a traitor by her friends, family, her SISTER. Tigerstar 2.0's position as a respected leader remains and the narrative only brings up his forbidden romance with Dovewing as a neutral or positive thing.
_Silverstream_ enters a secret relationship with Graystripe. She is ridiculed by Leopardfur and Crookedstar, _threatened_ by Fireheart, and later _dies_ during childbirth. (Although Graystripe does face scorn/punishment for his rule breaking afterwards)
_Leafpool_ enters a relationship with Crowfeather and had three kits with her. She was _attacked_ by her mentor, has been neglected and bullied by Crowfeather constantly after their breakup, outed in front of the entire Clans by her daughter, who tried to _murder_ her, hated by her kits for moons (even at her FUNERAL Jayfeather had to act up), shunned by her clanmates, had to give up her medicine cat position, and was _again_ in danger of losing her life to Breezepelt. Although Crowfeather faces _some_ scorn and mistrust to a degree, he is overall given another chance and retains his warrior position _and_ gains another mate in the process. And these are NOT the only examples.
On the she-cat's side, forbidden romances are seen as a big mistake, something to be ashamed of, to apologize and to be judged for. On the tom's side, forbidden romances are seen as forlorn, lost chances, something sweet to remember and to move on from, or to laugh off.
I think the second time she wanted to kill him because he was attacking firestar and she acted like firestars mother. Plus she hated him in general.
@@redpanda881 Actually, both times Yellowfang killed her son was because she wanted to protect *everyone,* not just Firestar (first time in the first arc via deathberries, second time in OOTS during the Dark Forest Battle when Brokenstar had killed Ferncloud). And the narrative presents it as Yellowfang "correcting her mistake", or "doing something she should have done long ago", as if any of this was Yellowfang's fault when it wasn't.
Leafpool’s treatment was just so atrocious, her daring to take control of her life and then getting punished for it never sat right with me, made it really hard for me to sympathize with Holly, Jay and Lion’s angst over it as well, even though I can see where they were going with it... sort of.
@@Light-ro5bp YEAH ESPECIALLY since between Leafpool and Crowfeather, Leafpool was very blatantly punished the most. Don't get me wrong - Crowfeather most certainly faced his own set of consequences, but unlike Leafpool, he was never demoted from his rank, or had his life threatened. Hey may have gone through a little bit of ostracization from his clanmates, but nowhere near as severe as Leafpool.
The fact that the Erins had Hollyleaf threaten to murder her mother under the threat of deathberries (which came at the cost of Honeyfern's life earlier in the story) is absolutely crazy; like if Hollyleaf was so inclined on killing her mother, who actually cared for and raised her in her own way, what was stopping her from going all the way to WindClan to kill Crowfeather, who literally disowned and mocked her and her siblings multiple times????
I don't even blame Hollyleaf either. I judt hate how misogynistic the Erins made the narrative out to be, unintentional or not. Leafpool deserved _much_ better, she needs a prepaid vacation 😔
This is so true! Another extreme example is how Mapleshade was treated and Appledusk almost got away with his part of it no problem
We also almost never see toms and she-cats just being friends either, which probably doesn't help with the deputy and leader disparity since leaders seem to often choose cats they have good relationships with as their deputy. She-cats and toms seem to only be presented as having either familial or mate relationships, and I vaguely recall there being backlash about Bramblestar choosing Squirrelflight as his deputy specifically because of their mate relationship, though it's been a while since I've read that arc. So since most of the leaders seems to be toms, and toms often only hang out with toms on a friendly or professional basis, they pick toms for their deputies. Note that one of the more prominent she-cat leaders, Leopardstar, was succeeded by Mistystar, which suggests similar ideas, though Bluestar did not have a single she cat deputy (though as you pointed out most of Thunderclan's she cats were in the nursery, elder's den, or were medicine cats during the first arc).
The only tom/she-cat friendship I can think of off the top of my head is Longtail and mousefur, and mousefur is literally canonically Ace I think. I think it's great that she's that, but also I don't think that the only notable tom/shecat friendships should be ones where they're side characters or literally can't feel romantic/sexual attraction. Thrushpelt and Bluefur/star comes to mind, but thrushpelt had romantic feelings for bluefur and was rejected. Sure he's still a good friend, claiming/allowing ppl to believe him to be the father to save her from having to admit that her kits are half clan, but it had romantic feelings in the mix anyway. Idk I just can't think of many friendships that aren't famial or had romantic feelings in the mix.
Mousefur and Longtail? Pinkeyes and Blossom? Thrushpelt and Bluestar?
@@Stanky101 I don't count Thrushpelt and Bluestar because Thrushpelt did have a romantic interest in her, even if she didn't return the feelings. That's still romantic subtext. And frankly in a series as long and as with as large of a cast as Warriors, you shouldn't be able to sum up the entirety of the she-cat tom friendships in a couple of lines. And I never said it never happened at all, just that it hardly ever happens. Three pairs of friends, one of which is one sided pining, still qualifies as "hardly ever" in a series the size and scope of Warriors.
Weren’t Rainwhisker and Squirrelflight hanging out together (along with Ashfur) at some point? We never really saw their relationship but it did happen. Medicine cats seem to be the only ones who are all buddy buddy or friends, but they dont really count.
Whitestorm and bluestar were considered really good friends in the first series before they went back and made it cannon that they are related in bluestars prophecy, this shows that the writers had attentions in making a tom and she-cat friends until they decided to go back and make it cannon that they are related
Also, not to sure if this one counts, but Graystripe and Sandstorm are friends
The text itself is extremely sexist/misogynist. You can not deny that, regardless of intent or not. It is so extremely frustrating, and I’m glad someone finally agrees with me on this.
Also, you’re telling me FANTASY CATS that are basically people wouldn’t let a pregnant woman be leader? Leaders are shown very rarely to do anything in the books other than stay in their den/wait for important news, and maybe a battle or two. These cats only have their kittens for like…2 weeks before they eat. Why wouldn’t one of the perma-queens help care for them? Or if the deputy took on some work of leaders, like in Graystripe’s Vow. It’s a bizarre choice.
@@gab3963 Idk if you play it but in the Roblox warrior cats game (warrior cats ultimate edition or wcue) which is roleplay-based, there seems to be a rule made by the people who play it that 'only male deputies and leaders can have kits' which is just silly. Pretty much all the wcue leaders do is sit on the rock occasionally calling meetings. Pretty much all the wcue queens do is sit in the nursery occasionally walking out to roleplay eating prey or talking to other cats.
Once I did roleplay as a she-cat leader and I had a kit, they would run around in the nursery or around camp some of the time but often they came to the rock and sat with me.
In the actual series I don't see why a queen couldn't be leader or deputy. Sure, a queen leader couldn't go out into battle or go to gatherings, but she could be represented by her deputy or a senior warrior. We actually see a deputy (Fireheart) go to the gathering in Bluestar's place in the first series. The leader's den could be used as a mini nursery for the kits when they were very small, and if there was another queen with milk she could feed the kits (it wouldn't be the first time a queen has fed her milk to kits that weren't hers. If I counted right then we have at least four examples). When the kits could eat real food they just move to the nursery. The queens in there could look after them and the leader could visit when she wasn't busy.
If there was a queen deputy, she wouldn't be able to go into battle or gatherings, but she could easily skip the gathering and the battle as well. Deputies do organise patrols but she could just go outside the nursery for a few minutes to organise the patrols, and like you said in your comment they could be helped by senior warriors.
@@sorreldislikespotatoes9882 god the wc roblox game just gets worse and worse huh
@@eggwheel1 Most of the fanbase there is extremely toxic, from sexism, to extreme gatekeeping and harassment the fanbase is horrible
@@eggwheel1 yeah lol it kinda does
Female characters dying to give the male characters someone to grieve over is awful, but for another reason than just that. Because even in that scenario the she-cat’s life is still reduced down to her relationship to her love interest and nothing more. Remember how heartbroken Crowpaw was when Feathertail died? How she spend her dying breaths telling him she would always be with him. Why was her death written to impact Crowfeather more than Stormfur? Why wasn’t Stormfur written to be devastated? Why didn’t Feathertail talk to him, her brother whom she grew up with? Feathertail and Crowpaw barley knew each other when Feathertail died, so why did he have to be the main focus? Simple, because it set up Crowfeather’s character and gave him someone to grieve over, and also made it so none of Feathertail’s other relationships in her life matter other than the romantic one.
Characters can love each other without being mates because there are other types of love who don’t the Erin’s get this?
I agree, in power of three when Jayfeather and Lionblaze think Hollyleaf died they didn’t really care or grieve (at lest that’s what I got from it) Then when she returns there (mostly Jayfeather I think) is still mad at her,
Iike how?! she’s there sister, she grew up with them but they barely show emotion when they think she dies! I just really frustrates me
That’s exactly the problem! The erins use female characters as a sort of like base. They are the parent that are always there, their are the ones that die so the male/mate grief and have a reason for turning rouge or do something specific. It’s always like that
Did not realize how many main stories with she-cats centered on romance and family - surprisingly that even in this time, that is the stock storyline the authors subconsciously choose
Hell yeah, this is a discussion that the fandom needs to hear and think about. I'll never forget back when someone tried rewriting the series to be "better and realistic" amd made the decision to kill off Sandstorm for man pain.
As far as antagonists go, we have the cats you mentioned, Maple, Misha, Sleekwhisker and Rainflower. We also had Starflower towards the end of DotC but I really despise how that arc treated characters like Turtle Tail and Bumble, basically blaming them for being abused
Oof the rewrite. I know the one you’re talking about. It was… pretty bad imo. Killing off Sandstorm instead of fleshing out her character was such a bad move. All because they didn’t want to write a romance between her and firestar. Sure… so killing her off was the only option.
I loved that rewrite, and I thought it did a lot of stuff well, but geez the Sandstorm thing drove me up a wall. The author's reaction to the criticism was Not Great, IIRC. Just goes to show how ingrained a problem this is, both in the source material and in the fandom.
I've talked with the author recently and they've come to admit that their choice in killing off Sandstorm was not a good one and they regret it. Also, the motivation for it wasn't to make Fireheart feel bad, it was a more petty reason, that the author wanted to spite the audience who loved bitchy female characters who are worshiped as #girlbosses. And again, the author has conceded that their choice on killing Sandstorm off was a bad one, and if they were to redo that, she'd at least live to see the end of the arc.
I was cringing so hard when Shadowstar was like: "Oh just accept more treats from twolegs, be quiet and submissive and he will stop" or when she is trying to turn everything on her - like did you do anything to provoke him? No b* he is clearly an abusive bully and he has been to both Turtle Tail and Bumble - man that made me so mad and I just feel like Bumble's death was so preventable, if only they had taken her in :/
holy shit does anyone have the name of this rewrite?? it sounds wack lmao
Squirrelflight not being recognized as the Three's "real" mother after it was revealed they were adopted feels really icky to me. I haven't read Squirrelflight's hope, but I think there's a scene where Hollyleaf runs up to Leafpool, who has literally always been her aunt and has not raised and loved her as a child, first and saying "mom!" (or something along those lines)
And Squirrelflight being treated so horribly by her children when all she did was love her kits.
@@humanbeeing4780 She is their mother, adoptive moms are real moms. I understand their anger but the way even the writing pushes her as an invalid mother is annoying.
@@firenkyo8073 i wouldn’t bother arguing with this person. they’ve been attacking me all day because of one of my comments, and even came after my private life. they aren’t worth it
I can understand a little resentment towards both squirrelflight and leafpool just due to the confusion of the situation. Things like that can cause a bit of an existential crisis (understandably so), but I think that when everything cleared up, there should have been a realization that squirrelflight had been the one there for them and is essentially their real mother.
well, leafpool is her mother so it's not crazy that she would call her such. though i guess running to leafpool first is a bit cruel depending on the context of the scene.
@@ManiacalBlueberry it felt like every jayfeather pov was him just giving grief to leafpool and squirrelflight, twas not a little
After reading River, Sunbeam hits so hard into the female archetype of expecting to have mate and kits that i physically cringe in her chapters, yet Frostpaw is the complete opposite being a medicine cat apprentice with the entire clan at her paws. I swear they show they can write good characters and they finally have one good female but I know they'll screw it up somehow.
Heh the worst possible thing that can happen whould be yet another forbidden romance plot which I think will happen again and if it does I hope it doesn't have anything to do with Frostpaw...
@@aragami8741 I hope if it does happen, Frostpaw is so absolutely wrapped around trying to help Riverclan that she has absolutely no idea until the love interest blurts it out and she's like: "...but why?" And dismisses it
Honestly, I didn't mind Sunbeam being like, "I want kittens with my lovely lovely boyfriend!" simply because we've never really had a protagonist who starts off as an adult in an established relationship (thaaaaat immediately gets upturned from the plot).
I've got a bad feeling that this revulsion for prominent mollies becoming mothers is sort of bleeding into a perception that motherhood inherently sucks and makes you have no personality which.... is a whole other can of worms in and of itself....
I disagree. I think Sunbeam is actually a good case. There is nothing wrong with having a female protagonist that wants an established, responsible relationship and has their eyes on somebody. Sunbeam dreams of romance while also having other valid struggles and her own personality, that's good. The point is not for her to reject the idea of a mate. The point is for her arc to not be reduced to a love interest and love interest only. I wish she doesn't get any NightSun romance plot, because this would perhaps cancel problems that are more important right now. In conclusion, plans of a responsible romantic relationship, yes, but becoming simply part of a romantic relationship and nothing more - no.
What I'd like to see is a tom who wants to take care of kits and becomes a 'permanent queen', much like Daisy.
itd be cool to see a trans tom that becomes a queen but i know the Erins would rather quit the whole series than do that
@@biggestastiest This might sound rude, and believe me I really want some trans representation too as a non-binary person BUT in this case I think it would be bad using a trans tom, not because I think trans ftm people cannot have kiddos but because if we finally get to see it more (which was a started concept with Fernsong, but sadly never explored) I think we should use a cis tom. Again, I rlly want trans rep. but in this special case.
Having a trans tom in this situation could give the message that a cis male person cannot care for his children, and only AFAB people can do that, which is not rlly great tbh.
@@weedcat135 Agree. It is also in fact better for trans rep if the cis characters in the story aren’t held back by gender roles. A society is generally more accepting to trans people if they are not bound by traditional gender roles. I think there can be a trans tom in the nursery eventually - just not until after the gender issues are solved first.
@@anoushkashenoy692 that's what I meant. trans people can conform to gender roles and not conform- i just assumed that the gender issues would finally be solved before we even saw a canonically gay cat in the series
@@biggestastiest The thing is, like Disney, they wont add LGBTQIA+ representation, as a lot of parents are religious and seeing gay (or any queer) cats in a children's book would mean no more Warriors, wich would mean no more buying, and we're talking about a series that renamed a book because "the original name is too violent".
Having female writers is great but it doesn't exclude the possibility of internalised misogyny when it comes to writing characters
exactly
Eyup... That's why we should have actual writers who actually cared about female characters and treated as an actual person/characters.
There's even the way she-cats are called she-cats rather than mollies.
Unlike toms who get the proper call rather than just referred to as he-cats.
Actual terms prevent that tho- Toms are called toms because they're unfixed. A fixed male cat is called a gib. Mollies are she-cats who are fixed, she-cats are female cats who are unfixed, and queens are she-cats who are pregnant or nursing.
all unfixed female cats are called queens. however they can also be called she-cats.
@@flickrdraws I've never heard that, is it from the books or real life? Because I've only heard the real world molly is female cat and a tom is for boys.
Even on quick googling, molly is for any female cat. Though you're not wrong that a queen is a nursing cat.
@@pyrook4074 Aren’t they only called queens when they have kits???
@@tammyhybrid1616 that's for real life. You have to be specific when you search. Mollies are typically what female cats are called because people (hopefully) tend to fix their pets.
One time I told my dad I was upset that there weren't more girl characters in the books, and he said something like "well the clans need strong fighters and stuff don't they? That's men." I was like, what the hell dude. The funniest thing about all this is that generally speaking feral cat colonies are matriarchal. The queens are in charge.
"that's men" theyre cats??????????????
This kind of reminds me of how I’m always told that I should “read twilight like normal girls.” No! I’m gonna read Warriors and Wings of Fire because I’m a furry and dragons and feral cats who murder each other all the time and have literal wars are cool.
@@gayfeather YES
Is your dad aware that they are tasks in clan life other than fighting the other clans?
@@gayfeatheri read wof and warriors, im not even remotely interested in twilight
I wish the Erin's would take a few ideas from Wings of Fire when it comes to gender writing. The gender of most characters really does not matter and more emphasis put on being interesting and engaging. Only 2 POV characters actually have their gender really matter for the story, being Glory and Snowfall.
YES! Warriors needs to be more like wings of fire. In WoF female characters can be just as empowered and capable as male characters (some of them even more so)!
To be fair, the WOF universe does have a slight misandry problem since male dragons can't become tribe rulers. Female dominance is pretty common among reptiles though.
@@AurumCat26 yeah and (spoilers for book 15)
there is an explanation for the fact that females are the tribe rulers, being the fact that tribes started because of grieving mothers!
@@AurumCat26 there's a very cool reason for that explained in the newest book lol
@@AurumCat26
I wouldn’t call that misandry as it is not shown to be a bad thing on the males end. Male dragons can still hold power and are on equal footing with the females in just about everything else.
Squirrelflight and Firestar are my CHILDREN and it is so cathartic to hear somebody both praise the good qualities they share and compare the similarities between them - and how Squirrelflight is done dirty at every turn 😭😭😭😭 She'd exactly like her dad!!! She didn't do anything Firestar wouldn't have!!! Why do so many characters/fans hate her????
peoPLE HATE HER????? WHAT THE FUCK SHE WAS LIKE, ANNOYING YEAH, BUT no caps lock that tiring, yeah, sure, she was annoying, but she was also endearing in here annoyance. She was fun, spunky. A little shit and I loved her. I never even got to book 2 of… whatever the second arc was called. Istg she does not deserve hate what the hell
cause she's annoying + some people find her stans annoying
She turned out to be like every other she cat: boring, meek, sweet.
@@boxsauce9516 girl that's not true and you know it
@@TorbieGinger ya I am right. She is like every other she-cat nothing like she was becore
I'm a sucker for close sibling relationships and they are always blown out of the water when a romance comes along. Like "I don't need family anymore, I have a MATE"
For a long time I worried if I was being blatantly sexist because I struggled to put any she-cat into my top 10 favourites. Only Leafstar would consistently get there. Then I realized that the issue was more in the writing. I just.. Prefer the way toms are usually written. Meek, agreeable cats don't really make fun and interesting protagonists to follow. And even if a she-cat was written more spunky and confident, they were usually portrayed as annoying, which my younger mind would just accept as fact.
I WANT to like more she-cats, I WANT to put more of them in my top 5 or even 10 but... They just aren't given as much attention and care as toms are, like your video shows.
Even Sunbeam, who I like a lot right now, has most of her plot running around a romance. Thankfully there's problems with a female friendship, too, but most of her grief comes from Blazefire.
Bristlefrost, too, was seemingly becoming her own, strong character until she just became doting love interest for Rootspring. Meanwhile Rootspring got to grow even after getting the girl he wanted from literally the moment he saw her. Only in A Light in the Mist did Bristlefrost gain back her personality and I started to like her again, but then she died.
I really hope Frostpaw won't get ANY romance in her story. Just let her be.
literally the only way women are written in warrior cats (with a few exceptions like mapleshade or rainflower ig) is
- sweet, motherly queen, usually very passive and family-devoted
- spunky, quick tempered who can 'keep up' with toms (although these can become motherly types, think squirrelflight)
- background characters with no personality so they cant be either of the other two archetypes
@@iwakeupandboomimarat That's pretty accurate
I NEED TO TELL EVERYONE MY CAT'S NAME IS SUNNY AND SHE LOOKS *EXACTLY* LIKE THEIR CHARACTER BUT WITH YELLOW EYES AHAHAHAHAHHAH
@@angellystarry if ur being serious, pls dont spam comment sections w this. thats rlly cute but if people r commenting a lot of this post theyre gonna get ur notifs like 5 separate times and someone might get annoyed w u
no you just find toms more enjoyable, this has nothing to do with any sexist tropes in warriors but instead, your preference.
You know what? How about the way _Heathertail_ was treated? Sure it was sad that she and Lionblaze couldn't keep being mates, but there was NO license for Lionblaze to treat her like total _shit_ after their breakup. Blaming her for things she didn't do, acting openly hostile towards her when she probably wouldn't have minded staying friends, picking fights with her and her Clanmates, no shit she became hostile to ThunderClan right back! We have a tiny bit of evidence at most that she started treating Lionblaze like shit in return, the bulk of what we know is that Lionblaze decided they should be enemies just because she was ordered to participate in the raid against ThunderClan. That was purely sexist for the sake of drama in an arc that was already full of it.
Not defending Lion here, but wasn't he meant to be in the wrong? Like, he nearly killed her, it was meant to show him taking his rage issues way too far, not to portray him as being justified in hurting her.
I agree. What's worse, Lionblaze broke up with her because of a "sign" from TIGERCLAW. Heathertail did not deserve any of the crap treatment from Lionblaze at all.
Lionblaze literally had dreams/thoughts of tearing her apart yet he's still treated as the one suffering from the situation
Yeah his father crowfeather did the same to leafpool
He go the misogynist genetics from crowfeather, and his adoptive dad is a total dick to his adoptive mother. So like he’s genetically and emotionally predisposed to being the bane of all she’cats existence. Then again I’m a squilf lover and Lion disliker.
"all she cats should have a mate and focus on their family" omg this.. I recently reread the first series and the part where fireheart questioned if Cinderpelt was sure about becoming a medicine cat when she was actually excited about it because "what if she wants to have kits" 😭 there's no way they'd write that about a male medicine cat (could be wrong cause I haven't read beyond that series but it stuck with me cause it really echoes how human women are talked to sometimes)
Right off the bat, it seemed weird to call the females "she-cats"
I prefer when, as I've seen some fanfic writers do, they're called mollies.
Also, I assumed molly was a British term, since I'd never heard it in America outside of fics
Yup! Molly is the counterpart to tom. Unsure of why it’s not used. Tom and Molly are names we made.. Why cant the cats have their own word for Tom?
Also there was one joke from DotC that would've landed better had they used "molly". Gray Wing is talking to Turtle Tail's kittens and warns them about Tom, and Sparrow Fur is like, "Tom? That's a dumb name."
And Gray Wing is like, "Yeah, humans give cats dumb names like that, and that's why we should stay away from them. Do you wanna be named She-cat?"
And it would've been so much better had it been "Molly" instead
Yeah “Molly” is the proper terms for female cats without kittens. I’ve seen some people (outside the warriors fandom) mistakenly call them “queens”. Female cats are only called “queens” when they’re pregnant or nursing kittens.
@@starstorm1267 I reread the first arc recently and I noted that in the first few books, they used "she-cat" and "queen" interchangeably. Bluestar, Mousefur, and random female warriors Firepaw fights are all called queens at one point.
Ngl She-cats sound fine to me lol
this video goes to show how sexism (or any "ism"/phobia in general) can many of times be shown unconsciously and without knowing, with beliefs and stereotypes about a social group rooted so deeply that you can't even tell what you're doing until someone else points to it
i do believe that the erins themselves didn't necessarily mean to write this way, but like i said with deep-rooted stereotypes it's almost hard not to. even then,we can't really know for sure since i doubt any of us here have ever developed a close enough relationship with them to start connecting dots
This is EXTREMELY small in the grand scheme of things but I'll never forgive the books for constantly referring to Dappletail as a 'once pretty' she-cat
can you elaborate? haven’t read that far and idk who dappletail is yet lol. what happened to her?
@@weirdcoreandstuff1250she was in the first arc. and yea, she grew old and the books constantly called her "once-pretty", basically saying aging makes you ugly
@@vamppooni OHHH YEAH I REMEMBER HER.
Considering this video is an hour long, and doesn't drag out, it's fair to say this is a real problem. Very clear evidence. Thanks for the insight into this issue.
Personally, as a woman with no desire to have kids and is broad-shouldered (It literally took a minute or so to take off a dress I tried in the store, because it was too stiff around my shoulders despite everything else about it being a good fit), I am a bit offended by this issue. And I'm not even a very bold, determined natural leader type of person, like most characters without mates / kits are. I am actually pretty quiet, gentle with animals and nature. But I do hope to find a partner. Even with these traits, I make the choice to not ever have kids. And it's not just because I'm young. I'm terrified of childbirth, I've had enough trauma for one lifetime.
@@humanbeeing4780 or maybe there's a thing being offended by… misogyny?
I could possibly accept Hollyleaf and Fallen Leaves as mates mostly since most of Hollyleaf's concerns seemed to stem from kits and likely asexuality, not necessarily Aromantic, but I'd definitely prefer her and him to just be close friends instead.
Even when I was younger and unaware of my own asexuality, reading about Hollyleaf's discomfort of not wanting to become a queen for it to just be brushed off with the old
"you'll change your mind once you have kits (kids)"
comment (yuuuck) was so upsetting to me that it was literally the inspiration for me to tackle the concept of asexual characters, queens in particular, in my original fanfic that I'm currently writing. >:)
Hollyleaf shouldn’t have been with fallen leaves, period
Fallen is a dead ghost CENTURIES older than her like wtaf?
@@thenyan3095 Fallen leaves was also FAR younger than her when he died. Although the same kit to full-grown system was not used back then, he still must’ve been young. Hollyleaf was already a warrior for moons and he was maybe apprentice age or younger. Sure he cared about her and was friendly, but he had been dead for ages and was incredibly young. (Ghosts don’t age) Hollyleaf needed somebody to lean on, but not a mate. That’s a problem in the series. a cat can’t heavily support another without them becoming mates or something
@@pillowmoment just because he LOOKS younger than her doesn’t mean that it’s fine to date a long dead ghost,
He’s still got the mind of a super old cat it doesn’t mean anything if he LOOKS young or whatever
@@thenyan3095 its not that he looks young, he just was. He did emotionally age but hes stuck at.. what, 6 moons? Its still weird
Was anyone else super bothered by Firestars weird obsession with Spotted’Leaf even though 1)They almost never spoke. And 2) she was killed off very very quickly.
Omg yes, dude... When I started reading it and the first time I read it when I was a kid I didn't even REALIZE it was a at least in some way romantic coded thing... Like... The way they said move on from her to Sandstorm i felt like my brain lagged idk I always thought that he just saw her as a super smart magic cat since she was the medicine cat with all the special prophesies... But then it felt so weird... I hated that vibe. I wish they just kept it like an admiration and longing for her wisdom or something like what I originally thought it was.
Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out Squirrelflight's treatment in the Broken Code and the comparisson to Fireheart. Reading the books, this was something - and is something that still - rubbed me the wrong way, and was extremely difficult to read.
Also a huge shout out to the Leafstar apologizing to Billystorm callout. I couldn't believe what I was reading at the time, and even now it still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.
This entire video essay was so well put together. Thank you so much for sharing and for articulating such a difficult and oft-overlooked topic in the Warriors fandom - and in many fandoms - in such a great, accessible way. It's important to talk about, and it just goes to show how easy it is for people to internalize sexist ideals and behaviors and to replicate them likely without even being consciously aware of them. I sincerely look forward to watching your other videos!
also noticed she-kits die a lot.
Finchkit, Brokenkit’s sisters, etc.
although yes... physical differences are a thing, why does it affect if they die?
Now Brokenkit makes sense. In a way. If he wasn’t an important character, he probably would’ve died as well. Considering Yellowfang’s situation.
But... Finchkit makes no sense. Palebird wasn’t sick
Stop killing the teeny babies!
Tallstar deserved a sister. He deserved somebody to lean on. He was made fun of his whole life. His mother ignored him. His father shunned him.
Brokenkit basically NEEDED sisters. He needed a family. It might have made a huge difference. He didn’t even know he had family. He was born a rogue for all he knew. Yellowfang only told him long after he killed Raggedstar.
Cutting out she-cats for the purpose of a story is also a problem that shouldn’t be ignored.
Tallstar’s sister could’ve hated him. It wouldn’t have changed his story at all.
Hopekit and Wishkit didn’t need to die. They could’ve been taken to another clan for their own protection. (Say Yellowfang is sent a dream telling her that her kits must be divided some how to protect them.)
It’s sad.
On the matter of Finchkit I think if Finchkit didn't die then Palebird would have paid attention to Finchkit and Tallkit, ergo would not have ignored Tallkit because she was not depressed... she had postpartum depression and then on top of that she was grieving a lost kit. And you really cannot have certain medicine for depression when you're nursing so that couldn't have helped... So Finchkit had to pass away for the purpose of plot in having Palebird so depressed she ignored her remaining kit.
Now Brokenkit? Brokenkit could have been a she-kit and nothing would have changed that storyline. Unlessed Raggedstar had something againt she-cat's being in leadership positions ig.
Kittens dying in the wild even at birth is 'realistic', or used for drama. Why not just have had only one kit if the rest were going to pass away in a litter? It's for plot purposes, some which make sense and others which don't. But with Brokenkit's sister it makes me wonder if he didn't do something to them in the womb... or Yellowfang was so stressed out about everything that she lost two of her kits and not the entire litter somehow.
You know what doesn't make sense? How Wind Runner's kits were alive when born an entire moon early when cats are only pregnant for a few days over two moons. No kittens irl would survive being born /that/ early. That's how old a 4.5 month old human foetus would be and if they were viable at all they'd be in the ICU in modern day.
Death happens, esp in the wild. There's SIDS to worry about for humans. Real cat colony cats have to worry about unrelated toms killing kits like lions that take over prides. I'm sad and upset about the babies dying but you cannot remove that element entirely from the story.
@@TrinketTheDragonsHoarde I second that and will also advocate for more kittens dying in the newer books due to...
* gestures to the massive sizes of Thunderclan and Shadowclan *
that.
@@inkylynx2777 Not just the kittens, the older cast members too. Too many live to elder age whether or not they go to the elder den. Just more cats dying so that there's not such a big long list of cats. You'd think with that many they'd be noticed by twolegs and TNR would happen or something. How is there no starvation with that many mouths to feed when in the past fewer cats still starved. Also the more cats in an area the more disease usually happens. How do they always seem to have enough medicine in every clan at all times to save everyone most of the time?
You know how they name cats lily in the series? I'm not sure if the 'writing team' is aware or not but if a cat even gets the pollen from a lily on them and injests it is always 100% toxic. I don't see that on the med-cat list of poisonous plants but it should be. And could potentially become a problem for the cats because even water that has touched a lily can be toxic for a cat to drink irl. Now I wouldn't want a real cat to suffer that fate but fictional cats esp to cut down on the cast list.
How they can keep track of all that... I don't think they actually do with all the retcons and timeline shennanigans.
I think they killed of finchkit to make tallstars revenge most interesting?
@@TrinketTheDragonsHoarde i’m just saying I’ve noticed it is the she-kits most of the time. Besides Flickerkit and one of squirrelflight’s dead kits, I don’t remember many tom kittens dying recently. and I can barely remember any at all. of course death is natural and sometimes does assist the story but so often it’s she-cats dying and I’ve never understood that.
I am a trans male. I am female to male. I am a guy. I identify as such. AND I AM ANNOYED THAT THERE ARE SO MANY MALE PROTAGONISTS. Please, let the woman do something! PLEASE.
also transman, big agree. I hated all the lack of female protagonists that aren't written like men are awful because that doesn't help either.
I've noticed that most people who read warriors are girls (and trans men too apparently), so tbh I'm glad it's quite equaled out
Also trans male and agree.
also a trans male, and i def agree. but i also want even a crumb of trans or ANY lgbt representation in warriors :(
@@AdelaTomankova I don't think that's true
I honestly think Frecklewish was a scapegoat for fans of Mapleshade's Vengence
Out of the cats that "contributed" to Mapleshade's creation, Frecklewish did the least wrong
If anything, the toms in the situation are the most to blame for not only the deaths of the kits but for the deaths of other cats and the future deaths/abuse future cats will face, and should've been the ones sent to the Dark Forest for their negligence and selfishness
Though its also easier to just shove Frecklewish into cat hell and watch Frecklewish and Mapleshade stans fight to the death
I mean. To be fair. Frecklewish obviously didn’t give a shit about the kittens she supposedly loved and helped raise for two months, as evidenced by her behavior. She’s only marginally better. Hell, she was the one who demanded that they be exiled, and since Oakstar is her dad (a leader suffering from nepotism), it may have pushed him to exile the kits as well as Mapleshade. So she’s still culpable for the kit’s death. At least indirectly.
@@nyabis8044 Nah. "To be fair", she just learned that her best friend had lied to her for months and the children she'd thought were her brother's actually belonged to the dude who murdered him. She obviously was in shock and wasn't thinking straight, and she completely had a right to that reaction. Mapleshade apologists brush off her behaviour as "she was a grieving mother" after the kits died, so why isn't Frecklewish just a grieving sister when they blame her for the kits deaths?
@@Clooover She also froze when she heard they died. she obviously cared
@@Clooover I (mostly) agree, Frecklewish was blinded by her grief and was sorry about it later so she isn't a bad cat. Although if what nyabis said was true that she wanted the kits exiled, that doesn't sound like a thing excusable by her grief, but maybe she's just grieving really badly. Personally I think neither Maple nor Freckle deserved the df, not because Mapleshade was "right" but because she seems mentally ill. and typically mentally ill people don't get charged for their crimes because they aren't in a right state of mind. (by mentally ill I don't mean like depression. I mean more like scizophrenia)
@@nyabis8044 she did not banish them, the only one who made the decision here was Okstar (aaaand Mapleshade when she decided to raise half-clan kittens in her clan, but this just does not apply to the topic). Frecklewish could have said anything and will not be guilty of the decision, because she was not the one who decided.
The implications that Warriors makes about its female characters and what lessons their primarily female audience should take away from them reads very "Girl Defined" to me; "Don't go after a career you'll love, you'll have to sacrifice the most important thing to you being born DFAB: motherhood." When first of all, you don't have to sacrifice your life to be a mother and secondly, it's incredibly dismissive of those who DON'T want to be a mother and have never seen that for themselves, teaching those individuals that they're "wrong" and that "even characters who didn't want kids before did after they saw how beautiful motherhood is-- it really is the driving purpose to your existence". This video is incredibly well made and researched, thank you for going so in-depth into an issue that needed more attention on it
Can we please have a protagonist like Mousefur?
I LOVE mousefur
YES
My favorite character is Jayfeather but I've always loved characters like Hollyleaf, Brightheart, and Ivypool. However despite loving these characters I've always felt like their full potential was ever explored and was frustrated by these interesting characters always getting shoved to the side lines, especially with Hollyleaf's death, that was just cheap. And i think the fact that the three characters I've listed are all female says something
I still think Hollyleaf's death is one of the stupidest in the series, just how oh no she's assumed dead then comes back! ...only to immediately die. It's been years and I'm still mad about it.
@@CatsNNavyBlueCaps Hard agree. Hollyleaf should have died in the tunnels and stayed dead, or lived and (in my opinion) become Bramblestar's deputy. "Killling" her, bringing her back just to make her suffer and die immediately was cheap, weakened the emotional impact of the end of PoT, and was just a terrible choice for her character arc.
@@isabellp.5730 Idk, I think her actual death was quite memorable too and I liked that she sacrificied herself for someone she barely knew.
Is it bad that i wish tawneypelt was evil? A she-cat whos villain arc is about being rejected by those around her and has nothing to do with kits or romance couldve set a precedent for the books going forward.
That would've been cool! Since I always liked Tawnypelt, maybe her brother could've out everything aside in order to talk to her, help her come to her senses and not follow their father's footsteps. Mainly because I wanted them to be closer siblings, both fighting TOGETHER against Tigerstar's legacy and bringing pride to their dead mother Goldenflower and their Clan.
But even if she stayed a villain, as long as she didn't lean onto Tigerstar and was her own person would've been badass!
Before watching this video, I didn’t take the time to examine the warriors series for this gender issue. I didn’t really notice the presence of one (aside from some really cruddy Squirrelflight and Yellowfang treatment in the books along with the lack of female villains.)
After watching this video, I see the problem much more clearly. There IS a problem that needs to be addressed.
I can only hope that the series will make strides towards progress in the future. We have 2 female leads in the new arc (who aren’t sisters) with compelling stories that I hope that can get some more potential. There might be some new leaders in the new arc that’ll balance out the gender ratio, but I don’t want to keep my hopes too high.
Thank you, Sunny, for addressing this problem in full without skipping out parts to make the video match a 10 minute length. You brought up a lot of interesting examples, comparisons, and statistics that were really convincing. The amount of time and effort you put into this is incredible, and I will be looking at the upcoming warriors books with a bit more scrutiny now.
Glad I'm not the only one who failed to notice the imbalance before it was explicitly pointed out, lol
I dont know if they were trying to make most of the protangonists males, but overall the toms do seem to be more interesting compared to the shecats. I never really enjoyed the shecat POVs as much as the toms myself, aside bristlefrost, who I found the most interesting in the broken code. (I was never a fan of Ivypool, who also seems to be a fan favorite aside Jayfeather in omen of the stars). This isnt particularly sexist however, though it does show authors definitely need to put more work into the shecat protagonists for them be "interesting," and maybe have them used more. Another problem is the Tom to shecat ratio of important roles in clans. Theres always been more toms as leaders, deputies and medicine cats in total. Mothwing being the only shecat who was a medicine cat for a while in the broken code. I hope the Erin's write shecats to be more involved and important in clans then the have been.
This is an issue for me with writing in general. In video games and books I don’t find myself relating much to any female character. In fact.. all but one of my favorite media characters are male/masculine aligned. It’s so strange. even my top 3 warrior cats are male?? (Tallstar, Sol, and Jayfeather)
Literally the only shecat I found interesting was the one that shared part of my name, and that was mainly from projecting
gigantic agree on this! i have some hope for a starless clan as theres two unrelated female povs, more females in power positions, and it seems to be setting up several female antagonists… i just hope they don’t end up squandering it like they usually do 😭
In the main arcs, there were three female pov characters that I find particulary interesting: Hollyleaf, Twigbranch and Violetshine. For males, I'd only name Jayfeather, Graywing, Alderheart and Shadowsight.
Why do they all have to have kits?? Moth Flight’s vision was particularly irritating to me because she had such a compelling/significant storyline for a little while but then she fell right down the boys-kits-sad widow rabbithole and, I don’t know it just made me sad because the first third of the book gave her such an engaging role in Clan history and she could have been so much more
All that to say I totally get where you’re coming from with this video, the Erins have some work to do
To be fair, the entire point of Moth Flight's story was that she had kits and created the med cat code as a result of having kits. The book was poorly written but... yeah
@@yawninglion1677it was poorly written to the point it undermined the whole rule, because Moth Flight struggled at being a mother and medicine cat for reasons personal to her - probably because she already had problems with distraction, she was too paranoid, and stubborn, and WindClan had too few warriors to help watch her kits, but she also didn't want them to. but then she's fine having other clans raise her kits? it made no sense. and at the end of the book she directs her vehemence for this rule at the only other female medicine cat, and the males don't even say anything about desiring a mate or kits. the whole book plays this off as if it's only a female cat problem to worry about so it doesn't make sense why they even made the males take the oath as well. it would've worked out better for the series if they had kept the traditional rule more mysterious and like a monk/ascetic thing. especially when so often the responsibilities of a leader are also just as demanding and taking care of their clanmates is likened to their own kits, yet they are allowed to have a mate and kits. medicine cats clearly can delegate tasks to their apprentices, fellow medicine cats or warriors, just as the leaders do, yet somehow it's impossible to balance duties and a family?
@@ninjagriff I mean, I agree. But because Moth Flight was literally invented as "the reason this rule exists", well, they kinda had to give her kits for it to happen. I think it's a very dumb rule tho
I personally hate how romance is always shoe-horned on a story for girls/ with a female protagonist.
Legit, when George Lucas wanted to make a film for his daughters after making Star Wars (that was aimed at "twelve year old boys"), he made Strange Magic, a film about LOVE POTIONS where a frikin nice guy gets off with no consequences for his horrible actions.
Didnt that guy basically try to magically roofy her?
@@haylienovalkowski5875 yup.
What the fuckkkkk…
i did a bunch of research a couple months ago and wrote down every cat that had has ever been mentioned to hold a high rank in canon. in every single rank, in every single clan, there are significantly more males than females.
edit; i just remembered another trend i've noticed a few times. there's this super disturbing thing that just... keeps happening, where she-cats are engaged in relationships with a tom that is much older than her. ferncloud and dustpelt, squirrelflight and bramblestar, dovewing and tigerstar, etc etc. this doesn't happen as much with toms- i can really only think of two relationships with large age gaps where the tom is the younger one.
YES I'm glad someone else noticed this, she-cats tend to be in relationships with *much* older toms and it makes me repel. There was also that thing that happened with spotteleaf when she was a warrior app and thistleclaw
@@thearbitorlife1696 god, spottedleaf's heart was awful. there's also frogleap and mossheart from riverclan, which was so deeply repulsive to read about.
Bit late, but also Brackenfur and Sorreltail
@@tuhkiscgibin6627 the list just gets longer
@@tuhkiscgibin6627 bluestar and thrushpelt is a popular ship that i see a lot, but he was a warrior already when she was born. they may not have gotten together in canon, but it was made very, very clear that he was in love with her, and everyone believed they were mates.
I would love a female villain who’s evil for ambition
And a male villain who’s evil because he lost his kits
Honestly, I really want more platonic tom-she-cat friendships.
I'm a girl, and my life-long best friend is a guy. I've never felt any sorta actual attraction other than a small childhood crush, which I'm pretty sure was caused by everyone saying we should be together, thus making me think we're meant to be together even though I've now recognized I'm a lesbian (which he supports me for btw)
Most of my friends are guys. In our friend group theres three guys (5 if you count some of my best friend's friends who hang out with us sometimes), and two girls (myself included)
Theres also another girl who I'm friends with but sadly dont get to see much due to her having other friends and being in a different class (I also may or may not have a crush on her sooo)
So yeah. Most of my life I've had more guy friends than girl friends, since I relate more to things that most guys I know enjoy. Basically I prefer having guys as friends since I can relate to them more, but can only see myself in a romantic relationship with another girl.
I've always enjoyed platonic friendships between guys and girls more than those between a girl and a girl or a guy and a guy. Probably cause of my own experience stuff.
I wish there were more friendships like that in warriors.
Like, more stuff like Mousefur and Longtail. That'd be really cool
the way media makes it impossible for girls and guys to just be friends and not in a relationship has made it so that in the rare instances it happens its my favorite thing ever, please society needs to give us more girl boy friendships in general theyre just so refreshing
@@slugfishh yesss agreed!
It's so annoying how that happens. MORE PLATONIC BOY-GIRL FRIENDSHIPS! PLEASEE!
I have three close friends. Literally all of them use he/him as pronouns. Admittedly only one of them is actually male, but like, men and women can and SHOULD be friends. Media should reflect that. Please. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.
Yes! I also think Longtail and Goldenflower were beasties too! I loved both of them and I loved that they were just friends. After goldenflower dies I thought it was really sweet he became friends with mousefur:) we need more tom-mollie friendships!
At least Slate had some personality and she did some things - like saved Graywing's life when he was attacked by a fox, Violet Dawn seemed to be just shoved into the story so here, Thunder doesn't die alone - she is introduced super late in the last book and they barely have any arc, he likes her look and that's the one and only reason he falls in love with her and brings her with him. .-.
However I like that holly leaf kept to her character, not wanting kits, keeping her sass, and I like that she forgave leaf in the end, and it is cannon that she is ace
What's that I hear? Could it be, a confirmed lgbtq+ character? YESSSSSSSS
She's confirmed to be ace?
I never knew that? Because I'm curious, do you have a link?
Sucks it had to be hollyleaf bc holly leaf genuinely sucks and is my 1 top hated cat
The fandom should re-write the arcs at this point
The fandom interpretations and MAPS are honestly billions of times better than the source material
Some people have tried but it doesn't go far😅
god for a second i had to process wtf you meant by maps because its been so long since that term was used in reference to anything but creeps
@@crappyaccount oof yeah that's unfortunate.
Luckily that is far from what I meant...
I absolutely HATE how those disgusting creeps are going by an acronym that's the exact same as Multi Animator Project (which people have doing for years before that)
I refuse to call those people maps, I call them by what they actually are
We need more friendships but also more gays. And we need den dads!!! I would also like to see more adoption and welcoming other cats into the clans because of the whole incest thing. Also Cross Clan relationships for she-cats is always more hardly looked down upon than for toms because all Crowfeather had to do was get a mate while Leafpool had to be taken from her job.
Why the hell would cats be gay like what
Edit: I know that animals can be gay but how was I supposed to know that? It’s not a well known fact or anything, and I’m not gonna go out of my way to research something I don’t care or even think about
@@paradoxxikal7327 Because they are fictional cats with human like attributes.
@@paradoxxikal7327 animals can be gay? ravenpaw and barley are mates
@@tiffany15O5 yeah but the cats aren't living a luxurious life where they can afford to be gay and push their beliefs on the others. I bet the cats from the forest are homophobes, and rightfully so. They rely on new born kits to make sure their clan survives.
@@paradoxxikal7327
I’m guessing you know very little about animals. Homosexuality has been documented in many animals irl
Makes me wonder how different everything would be if Rusty had actually been Ginger instead in regard to the gender disparity... but I'm not too confident it would have been all that different except for relationships ig.
Who's Ginger?
@@furthings the original version of Rusty/Firestar, he was a she-cat named Ginger
Where did the Ginger information come from? I'm really curious about it.
@@suhotdog3135 it was actually a fact from the Erins I guess
Imagine him just falling into a interdimensional wormhole and ending up right in the middle of ThunderClan with everything the same except there's a female version of him instead of him himself. That would just freak him (and all the cats in Ginger's version of things) out because he knows these cats except for the she-cat who looks near exactly like him, but they don't have any ideas who he is.
I remember when Mapleshade's Vengeance was released Vicky said she wanted the book to be about how women are punished disproportionately more when compared to men for the same crimes. However rather than being a commentary on gender it always feels like the books are just being the thing.
Also Violet Dawn did have a mate before Thunder. He's dead though and when we meet Violet shes a widow. I don't blame you for missing it though because whoever the hell he is was mentioned once and never again.
Very well done essay, but I do have one thought about how you described the Sisters. Particularly, the attitudes the clans (who are supposed to, as far as the framing device and narrative voice says) supposed to be our basis of morality in the Warriors Universe, infallible and usually only "tricked" when they do bad things rather than being on a whole at fault for literally anything; see, Tigerstar in Shadowclan, Darktail, Sol, all of Ashfur's nonsense when he was leader of Thunderclan, and so on. Other than the examples I've listed (which are painted as a "few bad apples" that otherwise take advantage of a perfectly good system, no matter how actually broken and nonfunctional that system may be in practice), the Clans are treated as unequivocally right when it comes to matters of lifestyle, religion, and dealing with both internal and external problems. So whatever Clan cats feel about a certain group is generally regarded as uncritically correct - take the Tribe for example (in all their anti-native """glory"""). The clans see them as exotic, strange, maybe a little backwards, and usually unable to help themselves, or at least in dire need of help. And the narrative of these books does absolutely nothing to challenge that perspective; as far as the books are concerned, it's not the bias of the clans that make them thing these things, it's how the world actually is, and the Clan cats are just calling it as they see it. The Sisters I feel are the same way - we're given a portrayal of a yes, very admittedly flawed society - they ARE sexist, and sexism towards men shouldn't be ignored or glossed over. However, I believe it is very telling of the author's priorities to showcase how unusually awful it is of the Sisters to practice these ideals, but treat a society that is very sexist towards women through their actions as perfectly rational, reasonable, and morally right in literally absolutely everything, never, ever once particularly scrutinizing the ways in which their society functions. The Clans are treated as a paragon of virtue and ideals, the thing that other societies should model themselves after, through the interactions with the Tribe, the Sisters, and even disparate groups such as Kittypets. Due to this, and the bias in gravity that the narrative gives the Clan Cats' words and perspectives, it's hard not to feel like the book is implicitly saying that sexism against men is bad...but that whatever is going on with the she-cats in the clans is not REAL sexism. That's just how normal, functional societies are. At least, that's how the books say it is, by condemning the Sisters so strongly, I feel.
Oh, and the Sisters never once decided to drive out the Clans, that's pretty important, too. The Clans literally got an important cat killed right as she was giving birth. But it's okay because...the Sisters were sexist towards toms and may have been taking a little bit more prey than they should have. Double standards at their finest.
@@graphitetailgrace3870 Absolutely, while I haven't read Squirrelflight's Hope, from what I understand of the plot, while that's one of the few books that portrays Brambleclaw as definitely in the wrong, they still only give him a slap on the wrist for his actions since Squirrelflight comes back to life (not saying she shouldn't have, but compared to her literally losing her sister and the Sister's losing their leader, he lost absolutely nothing which...I guess is realistic to real life, people in power suffering nothing, but it doesn't feel like what the writers were intending to convey). Though my primary point was this idea that they only point out sexism when it's women doing it to men (still important to point out, but in this scenario it feels a little insidious to me), rather than when men do it to women. Making the sister's out to be strange, exotic, and even cruel I think is an extension of the writers' biases. It's double standards all the way down.
@Moon It was still the Clans acting way the fuck out of line and going directly into disproportionate retribution. I've seen you reply before, are you just going up and down defending the books?
Flashback to that one time on amino a patrol clan member (basically the app's 'police force' in keeping away spam, NSFW, art theft, etc.) Had to make a post saying not to have roleplays where women were only allowed to be slaves. And then people were objecting to it
A quick scroll through wattpad or ao3 shows that the warriors Fandom, especially earlier in the Fandom, didn't value women as people. Often, they were slaves, mistreated, called "toys" and often had various awful things happen to them for the benefit of men, or as "payback" when characters who were men weren't faced with similar punishments.
I wonder why so many people with misogynistic mindsets were attracted to Warriors /s
(A quick add on after the fact: obviously nothing to this degree was portrayed in the books, and of course every Fandom has people who write the worst things they can think of. This is just my experience with misogyny in the community. Additionally, I have to wonder why the books attracted an audience that did stuff like this- because a lot of them did. I believe the portrayal of gender in the series spoken about here had a contributing role to normalizing this throughout the community. Exactly why you need to be more critical about the media you intake, as the video says to do in the end.)
That’s the fandom not the books
@@happykthecat7655 yes?
@@jellyfishbonemeal2766 just because the fandom is treating women like slaves doesn’t mean the erin hunters are the same
@@happykthecat7655 I never wanted to imply they were- obviously the Erins never did anything like that, and I apologize that I gave that impression, however it leads me to wonder why a large part of the Fandom DID treat them like that- and why the rest of the Fandom didn't call them out. While the Erins never did this themselves, why did Warriors attract people who DID do this? Even so, the acts of the Fandom set a precedent that this behavior is okay, and I believe the Erins treatment of their female characters and their silence helped in some small way to normalize this.
This isn't a problem exclusive to this either, and I genuinely don't think it was intentional on their part. I just wish they did more to discourage their fans from making content like that.
@@jellyfishbonemeal2766 ok that’s fair
Great video -- this makes me think of the sheer number of queens in the first arc with the suffix -flower (Goldenflower, Morningflower, Brightflower...) and now I really want a -flower suffix tom! Haha
Don't forget Moonflower.
An hour long Sunny Spiel?
I AM READY!
Watching this video made me realize that my Warrior Ocs don’t need mates. Thb I was trying to fit a mate in my oc story but I don’t even need one and adding it would mess up almost my whole Ocs story. As well from that I barely have any favorite she cats most of my favorite characters are male mostly because she cats are written poorly.The gender problem spills outside of warriors too and it happens in most of my favorite shows.
Y’all notice how most she-cats’ stories and personalities basically end once they get a mate and kits? They are shoved to the background or lose all thoughts and feelings? Or they die protecting their mates or having kits… Sandstorm fades to the background, Brightheart hardly exists, Ivypool looses most of her personality, Dovewing is mostly sidelined, Cinderheart is forgotten, Sparkpelt mostly becomes default mother, Bristlefrost is lost, Violetshine loses most of her screen time, Willowbreeze becomes a sad plot point, Feathertail is Crowfeather’s angst provider, Turtletail dies, Storm is crushed, Starflower just exists as Clear Sky’s side piece…
Or they start with a mate and kits when it goes wrong like Mapleshade, Sasha, Leafstar, Yellowfang, Silverstream, etc.
fr, squirrelflight is the only one who didn’t get shoved to the side
too bad that bramblesquirrel is kinda toxic-
@@aikoaikoaikoaikoaikoaikosquirrelflight deserves better
One thing that upsets me now that I know of it is just the title of "she-cat". Sure I was fine for a long time but whatever. But then I found out that a female cat is called a molly, to go with males being a tom. 1) the fact that the female name is never talked about in general upsets me but 2) looking back at the name she-cat feels like it emphasizes "HEY THIS IS A GIRL SHE'S PRETTY"
Sure there's the phrase she-wolf but eh, the fact that molly is an established name and a series about cats didn't google if tom had a counterpart rubs me the wrong way.
I imagine the reason there is a term she-wolf is because the other word for them is also a swear word and parents would not want their kids reading that even though in that context it is not a swear word. But they could have made up some other word instead of placing she- in front of whatever creature they are.
im not sure how accurate this is but i read somewhere that she-cats are female cats that arent fixed while mollies are female cats that are fixed
toms are male cats that arent fixed and he-cats are male cats that are fixed
so since theyre wild cats theyre gonna use the not fixed counterparts
while mollies are female cats that are fixed and she-cats are females that are unfixed, all unfixed female cats are called queens. a fixed male cat is called a gib, while he-cat however is not a real or used term at all.
@@TrinketTheDragonsHoarde wait what’s the word for female wolves?
@@Forest_Pilot The same as it is for female dogs. It begins with a b.
And this is why I never force romance in my OCs, hell, two of my dog OCs in a story loosely inspired by Warriors have gay subtext but don't rush into a relationship.
My fictional town of OCs have a lot of asexual characters, and a lot of characters don't get partners unless they seem like they legitimately be good together.
Anyways shoutout to male-female friendships, not all characters of different genders need to date.
Honestly - although it's not exclusive to she-cats - what annoys me the most are those "forbidden romances".
I remember, in the first season I was really angry with Graystripe for getting Fireheart and Thunderclan in so much trouble because of Silverstream. In the second season, I really rooted for Crowpaw and Feathertail. But anything past that, I just really don't care, because it is such an overused trope inside the stories that it's just straight up boring. At this point, readers would probably be more shocked and emotionally invested if a cat chooses a mate from his own clan, than by another forbidden romance.
Especially because they did pretty much everything they can do with this concept. To a point, where Leafpool and Crowfeather leaving the clans for their romance (and Leafpool coming back pregnant) and Dovewing and Tigerheart leaving the clans for their romance (and coming back with kits) is literally the same thing. The only new thing that they came up with regarding forbidden romance is killing off Bristlefrost - which, to be fair, caught me pretty off guard and therefore was a good move from a writer's perspective. But that's about it.
I feel like Gray Wing's story would have been more impactful if he and Slate were just friends.
I feel like a really apt comparison is between Firestar and Squirrelflight, because Squirrelflight's personality is a lot like her father's, but she goes through very different things that they only write for she-cats
I find the fact that warriors has and has continued to have this problem really interesting. If nothing else I've noticed the Fandom is overwhelming female, not that people the gender of a cat should dictate whether someone enjoys or relates to a cat but I've found it definitely helps. So why is it females from what I've seen as the most predominant part of the Fandom have this problem.
I will say I disagree with heathertail in particular being considered a basic she cat, she is arrogant in text and often doesn't pay much mind to consequences as an apprentice, she carries her confidence as a warrior and is notably skilled and if her apprenticeship is any indication she seems fairly ambitious. Even with breezepelt I don't think her personality is necessarily overshadowed by him, rather she mellowed out as a result of maturing
Major kudos for all the research, time, and hard work that went into this video! This is definitely a topic that has been glossed and alluded to in the fandom for a long time, but a deep dive like this is something that a lot of creators have been understandably leery about given The Internet(tm). But it's definitely a subject that should be talked about, because the way she-cats are portrayed in the books compared to toms is exceedingly frustrating. The double-standards you mention in particular have always grated on my nerves. Even little things like "we need Sorreltail to stop being friends with Leafpool so she has nothing to hold her back from eloping with Crowfeather; Sorreltail gets married and abandons her entire original identity to be A Mom." It's a trend of a particular brand of authorial bias that is utterly maddening, and I honestly have zero faith that the current arc is going to break that trend.
Thank you SO MUCH for covering this. Not only did this video make me more aware of the underlying sexism in Warriors, it made me realize how easy it to unintentionally or subconsciously put gender imbalance/misogyny in stories. I am a beginner fantasy author (and a girl myself), so I will be sure to watch out if these patterns show up in *my* stories.
Very informative, well put together, and high quality.
One cat I think was completely screwed over was Nightcloud. She never really fit into the category of dumb, submissive, mother who doesn’t really stand up for herself. While she wasn’t the most perfect character she still stood up for herself and got angry at crowfeather and for a good reason at that. The whole reason she was relevant In the first place was to make crowfeather appear more loyal to windclan after being in a relationship with not one but two cats from another clan. He practically did this to himself and people still hate on Nightcloud because she’s “a bitch”, “a Karen” (I could go on and on about how hurtful that term can be), and she’s mean? Crowfeather spend most of the 2nd arc being a complete asshole to everyone around him and people continue to defend him saying he’s a “little angry emo spike ball” (or something along those lines)
Nightcloud is not perfect but neither was crowfeather and I’m sick and tired of people defending him and acting like he’s done nothing wrong.
Also mind you, I see a quite popular argument that she spoiled breezepelt and made him hate Crowfeather when as far as I know, there are no actual canonical scenes where she dots over Breezepaw/pelts ugly ass behaviour, and it’s shown that the reason Breezepelt hates his father because well... he straight up ignores and neglects him unless he’s basically dying, and it’s pretty clear that it’s the darkforest that feeds into this hate, who is notorious for specifically targeting cats that feel isolated or otherwise have problems, with pretty much only Lionblaze being the exception. You know when that’s ever mentioned in the books? When Crowfeather says this to Breezepelt after the great battle.
That’s, that’s it. It’s kind of crazy how the collective fandom decided to belive him right away from one line, and they ate it up because Nightcloud wasn’t a complete soft push over. I also think the fanon perception likely influenced or influences the erins to retcon it that way which is a big fat yikes. And even then, the faulting for Nightcloud is... weird? Like in the ultimate guide that otherwise is infamous for the innacuracies, it’s said that she was worrying that she’d never have kits- ...but that doesn’t mean she took advantage of Crowfeather??? Like it’s phrased really weirdly and I can’t exactly understand what that means. And Maybe she rushed into the relationship, but it’s not like she’d want him to take part in raising Breezepelt if they had a clear deal that Crow doesn’t want to raise potentional kittens, even if Breezepelt maybe wanted a father regardless. If anything it makes Crowfeather worse for taking advantage of a woman who perhaps more or less desperate and hoped their relationship would actually flourish if it was just given time.
And that does give Breezepelt more of an explanation for his quite literally fatherless behaviour, I’d feel pretty fucked up too if I was just a loyalty to prop in my father’s eyes.
@@huhhuh9598 True! Nightcloud is villainized because she "used" him to have a family, but Crowfeather is victimized because he used her and Breezepelt to prove his loyalty? And just because they both used each other, it doesn't give him right to just dismiss and ignore them like that; he also chose to build that family! He might love his son, sure, but he sure as hell didn't act like it!
HOO BOY, this is gonna be one hell of a ride.
When I was reading the series, I was always annoyed by how (even though this isn't a series that has any particular reasons for it, i.e. special gender roles), the she-cats always seem to be written off as weaker than the toms. Even originally strong she-cats like Squirrelflight or Sandstorm seem to, as they got older, fall into this cage of passivity that always bothered me. I also am frequently irked by how she-cats seem to be dependent on their mates all the time, like they can't do anything but "sit back and let the toms handle it", leading to a large amount of toxic relationships because the she-cats won't do anything to help themselves. She-cats always seem to be only be growing up to have kits or want to have kits and there wouldn't be so much of a problem with that but there's no balance. The thing that really got me thinking on this was when Hollyleaf was given a part of a chapter to unload some pretty good questions about the roles of Clan she-cats. She didn't want to have kits as she wanted to continue to become a better warrior until possible leadership, but was seeing the standard she-cat role around her and felt pressured to have kits like the others. This is what got me thinking about this subject and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Legit surprised this Is only an hour and 17 minutes long
edit: HOLY SHIT THE GENDER PROBLEMS ARE EVEN WORSE THAN I THOUGHT
Just a brief opinion, I've always seen Warriors as being a look at an inherently flawed society. The clans look good and strong and well put together at first glance, but the deeper you go, the more cool things you find, but you find just as many disturbing things as well. Warriors kinda presents itself, at least in my humble opinion, as a reflection of what our society now does all too often. Everything from the rise of tyrants, to the effect lies have on people, to even the disparaty between gender roles despite statements to the contrary from characters in the story. All of these are real problems, and Warriors is holding a magnifying glass to them and seemingly saying "Look at this! Isn't This Bad? Whatcha gonna do about it?" It's almost like the books want us to talk about these problems, to have discussions like this one, and point out these problems in a fictional story that is a disguised mirror of our own world. I like the discussion these things get, and I agree that the gender disparity is quite pervasive in Warriors, that is a problem we don't like admitting to, but it's always there. And yet, in a way, this is serving a purpose, prompting fans to have discussions on the topic, making the uninitiated more aware of these issues, and creating an appetite for change.
Anyways, sorry for getting longwinded, but I figured I'd post this as 1 of many perspectives in this conversation, and also just as food for thought.
I can see what your saying, but there's nothing in the books indicating all of the above as negative. It's never drawn attention to within the context of the books and it continues to happen across the series with little to no change. I'd love it to be a deep rooted criticism, but it lacks all the self-awareness it would need to be so. It definitely is a mirror of our real world, intentional or not, but it's because the authors have that real world ingrained in their minds and it shows itself within their writing of tropes and stereotypes. These videos still serve the same purpose: to call out negative internalized worldviews, but it wasn't the original purpose of the media to be critiqued as such.
I agree with Ken. Multiple times female characters are gaslit, abused, or just straight up killed by writers to become "Fridged Wives" (TV tropes has a detailed explanation).
Hell, there was an entire arc built around Incel Ashfur, and not only was he written to be """justified""" but he also threatened to kill someones children because she didn't enter a relationship with him.
Not only does this character go to the equivalent of Heaven after what he did, but also was not framed negatively other than the fact the POV for Lion/Jay/Holly was the only reason the text said anything negative about him.
Hell, they were more infuriated at being ADOPTED than being nearly murdered. And they immediately reject and scorn their mother incredibly harshly for the rest of the series without understanding her or letting it go at all.
this video mainly made me realize how much they used squirrelflight’s character as a complete punching bag after she became mates with brambleclaw/had kits 😭😭
Extraordinary analysis of a complex issue throughout society. Sunnyfall's sense of fairness is exceeded only by her deep understanding of the subtle yet powerful influence fiction can have on the absorbed reader. Breathtaking work!
i love this video! you summed it up perfectly. thank you for shining light on such a important topic!
i dropped off of warrior cats due to my inability to focus as a kid. but its SOOO amazing seeing people like you share some valuable information with all audiences. we need to have conversations about our storytelling and flaws, and how to improve or value our medias
Glad you took the time to make this, it was very needed to mention theas faults from both sides.
Gonna start by saying this video is amazing! Thank you for making it.
I've always struggled to find a lot of the she-cats outside of the Main Big Important Ones interesting but I like a lot of the toms, and this really puts why into perspective! Hopefully they do better in the future. Gender disparities are one of the things I focus on when writing stories (even with non-human characters) so that I can try to avoid things like this.
The mate bias wasn't something I had considered! It really does push the whole "be a good girl and settle down with a man" idea. Woman characters in a lot of stories tend to get romantic subplots or only be there for romance, which makes it hard to find interest in them. It'll definitely be something I'll have to keep watch for in my fan content and in Clowders & Claws. Hopefully someone on the writing team for Warriors sees this and rethinks things!
God thank god you didn't talk about the starclan _scene_ at the end of Squirrel's Hope because everytime I hear about it I rage once again at the reminder. I'm pretty fucking sure Graystripe or any other cat didn't go through that whole ass bs trial just because of forbidden romance/half-clan kits! 🤦♀
The idea that Squirrelflight and Leafpool could've been sent to the Dark Forest or stranded in the ghost residence for following StarClan's advice was disgusting.
@@graphitetailgrace3870 It's honestly ridiculous and I'd hoped the Broken Cide would have addressed such bigotry and dumbness but nooo StarClan _good_.. because....?
It’s even worse when you read Onestar’s confession and see how Starclan addresses HIS breaking of the warrior code
I choose to headcanon that one of the sisters had a coma hallucination, and because of their magic bond the books forgot to mention they had the same dream of being on trial but it wasn't real
Wait I never read past like, the 6th book, what happened??
I like how content creators can have an opinion without it being offensive, and they display their opinion well whilst also teaching people not to hate on other people or not to stop reading warriors, love ur vids :)
An hour long video makes me extra happy
I.... never read Worrier Cats. I am not in this fandom, and I have no idea about who this characthers are. But I AM STILL GONNA WATCH TILL THE END! :D
Because I am interested to learn more about a comunity what was around me since I was a kid. Honestly no idea how I found your chanel, but I still think its hella cool. Thanks and have a nice day!💖
I had to delete my comment due to someone trying to riot in the replies but I definitely agree with the issues brought up. The series has many toxic relationships wich it actively defends, the gender gap is a pretty big problem on its own.
I haven’t finished this video yet, but GOD have I been waiting for someone to cover this topic!! It’s been on my mind for so long but I’ve never had the time nor resources to be able to properly look into the amount of sexism in warriors!!! thank you for making this amazing video, it’s definitely been a long time coming!!
Even taking into account Firestar being the only protag of the first series (excluding prologs and epilogs) the stuff is still pretty unbalanced in the backgrounds
First off 100% agree, it would be amazing to have more outgoing She-cat protagonist or even side characters that aren't there to just add a camera or for romance.
ALSO CAN WE APPRICIATE ALL THE MATH DONE?
You can tell how much work you put into this
the fact that they erased squirrelflight's bold and feisty personality just to make her another submissive soft spoken she makes me super fucking pissed aagsghhrhrhh 😿😿
I miss the days where there didn't have to be a 2min "don't be offended by this" intros to every single video talking about some more serious stuff.
Great video, enjoyed your thoughts on this.
I honestly didn't notice any of this in the books, and I think that really says something about our society and how we raise our children. So many of us just grow to accept the unacceptable truth about gender inequality and we don't even realize when something like this is discriminating against a huge portion of people
Dang, you really opened my eyes to the leadership issue. Probably because currently in me and my friends warrior cats oc story we have all she-cat leaders and (almost) all male medicine cats
The ammount of effort put in this video is absolutely INSANE.
Why isn't the Warriors Wiki placing info like this about the characters-
i especially was feeling that she-cat apprentices were getting beaten upon in the first arc, the only tom apprentice who was injured was swift paw, and as for she cats well.... sandpaw almost dies at the gorge, brightpaw, injured, cinderpaw, injured, sorrelpaw, injured, just look at frostfur's litter, both her toms are fine and dandy and both her she cats are terribly crippled
I always thought that Dustpelt was a good father. He visited Ferncloud in the nursery often and was very sad when his 2 kits died in the old forest. However when they become warriors it’s like you can’t even tell that they are related. The way he talks to them suggests that they are merely just clanmates. And the description of them talking makes no comment to them being kin like it does to other more prominent characters. The only instance I can recall of the reader being reminded that they are his kits is when Ferncloud died and shortly after the battle with the dark forest.
isnt that how cats act irl?
Its surreal looking at Palebird and then berrynose like I'll admit that Palebird and Tallstar's conflict is very complicated and realistic but how the narrative treats Palebird versus how the narrative treats Berrynose is wild.
26:07 - this comes out in Hollypaw's POV in one of the books in the PoT arc if I'm remembering right, she tells Squirrelflight that she doesn't want to be expected to have kits/a mate. Squirrelflight tells her that she doesn't have to. This interaction stuck out to me enough that all these years later I still think about it every once in a while.
26:31 oop you got to this point and I remembered Squirrelflight's reaction wrong
thank you for talking about this. I was doing a warriors re-read a couple years ago and it did not take me long at all to see how terribly gendered some of the character arcs are. I only got to the beginning of power of three, but even then I was able to see a pretty consistent trend among the she-cats falling into being either A) pretty love interest who dies/is injured tragically to enhance male pain (spottedleaf, silverstream, feathertail, you might throw in brightheart or even cinderpelt), or B) she-cat being given the chance at a promotion but their motherhood is something that weighs HEAVILY on their mind when the same is not true of their tom counterparts (bluestar, leafpool, it was something that cinderpelt at least acknowledged). again, I only made it to power of three so I don't know if it shows up later, but are there *any* instances of toms becoming medicine cats and having the conversation with themselves or anyone else, "oh no, taking on this role means that I can never become a father and that is something I will have to contend with"?
and don't even get me started on the parallels between leafpaw's realization that she made that oath when she was too young to realize its gravity and the very similar practice that happens in real life Christian purity culture. the religiosity present in warrior cats quite honestly drives me bananas and I would love it if you ever chose to take a deep dive on the subject someday much like you have here. I'm sure it might be seen as a touchy subject to some but I think it's important to consider when unpacking some of the more problematic themes/trends in the books and considering what imo seems to be the struggles with the authors' own relationships with God that appears to seep onto the pages.
Hell yea a longer video I can put in the background when I drawwwww thank u
Thank you for blessing us with this long video. I’m so excited. I had no idea how long it would be when I first saw it, so now I have to make myself some treats to watch this video with
All the she cats dying for no reason is so the toms can have something to mourn. The way male protagonists always have a dead girlfriend or mom or sister.
The time and effort she put into this is amazing! Usually I don't watch things like this that are an hour long, but I actually like this one. She's should get a bit more attention, but I never even realized this when reading the books! It's truly amazing how she spent the time researching this and realizing that they get less attention. Now I'm looking back on when I read Into the Wild, and realizing how little attention she-cats get.
I hope the writing team realizes the fandom is a pretty even boy and girl split so they don’t have to do this
*also NB or anything under that umbrella you matter too
What
I just realized while rewatching this video when Sunny mentions how there's no arcs with purely she-cat POVs and then I remembered how the newest upcoming arc is gonna be Leafstar, Tawnypelt, and Moonpaw who are all girls: .... HELL YEAH