Why is EV Reliability So Bad? | Talking Cars with Consumer Reports
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- More info on the 2024 CR Reliability Survey here: www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Ratings and test results on every car CR purchases and tests: www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
Every year, Consumer Reports surveys thousands of its members, asking about issues and trouble spots with their cars. Using this exclusive data. CR provides reliability ratings for every major mainstream model, from brands that are highly rated to those that give owners constant issues. In this episode, we discuss some notable new insights on EVs, plug-in hybrids, hybrids, and traditional gas vehicles, and the difference in their reliability performance. Also, we explain how CR's "average" reliability rating has changed over the years--Is an "average" car from 2022 more or less reliable than one from 2012. And as a comparison, what is a more sensible purchase? A Tesla Model 3 or a Toyota Corolla hatchback?
SHOW NOTES
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00:00 - Introduction
00:16 - What is CR’s Car Reliability Survey
01:04 - What’s New in the 2024 Survey
02:00 - Reliability Trends
02:40 - EV Reliability
06:04 - Tesla
07:58 - Hybrid Vehicle Reliability
11:25 - Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) Reliability
13:41 - New Charts and Presentation
17:13 - Sustainability
18:29 - Has CR’s “average” reliability rating change over the years?
23:24 - What is a more sensible purchase, a Tesla Model 3 or a Toyota Corolla Hatchback?
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Guide to Car Reliability & Owner Satisfaction
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10 Least Reliable Cars
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10 Most Reliable Cars
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Car Reliability Histories
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Car Safety Guide
www.consumerreports.org/cars/...
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8:34 "They've had the Prius out for well over a decade at this point."
LOL!! Talk about an understatement. The Prius has been out for 27 years now.
So most of these reliability issues are not related to the EV powertrain itself (batteries+motors), it's more all the "electrified" gizmos in the car... that you also find on ICE cars.
This is what a BMW technician told me about his high voltage training... the battery is not the issue at all, modern cars have 30+ computers all over:)
You are inferring that you'll have the same potential problems with an ICE vehicle, but that's not what the CR crew said. There are lots of components controlling battery packs and motors, including the heating and cooling systems. Battery packs, alone, if damaged, can cost a *huge* amount of money to replace (more than what an even relatively-new car is worth). It will likely be years before EVs are as reliable, generally, as better ICE vehicles. Tesla seems to make good electric powertrains, but have lots of other issues, including getting needed service.
Except that is not true, since then the ICE cars would also have bad reliability, I think it is more things that are required to keep the battery functioning well that break down often.
What service does a Tesla require, Ken? @@kenhoward3512
EVs tend to shove more unreliable gizmos in. They won't make EVs without this extra nonsense because it allows them to monetize data.
I found your conversation about reliability and suitability to be interesting. But you failed to add another dimension to that discussion. I began driving and repairing cars around 1950. In 1950 a person would expect the following routine maintenance for their car. Oil change every 1000 miles with chassis lubrication of about 15 lube fittings. New spark plugs and ignition tune-up every 10,000 miles. New tires and shock absorbers every 20,000 miles. New exhaust system every 35,000 miles. Top end rebuild of engine with regrind of valves and tappet adjustment around 50,000 miles. At around 70,000 miles most people were trading in their vehicles because of excessive body rust out or need for an expensive rebuild of the engine or transmission. Today's cars are so much more reliable and sustainable with regards to their basic functionality, but they do suffer from too many components and unnecessary conveniences that compromise the overall reliability. Today I expect a car to be reliable transportation for at least 200,000 miles. Today I drive a 2018 Kia Niro hybrid with every convenience imaginable. I've got 55,000 miles on it without any maintenance except oil changes every 7,500 miles and one set of new tires. Recalling the hours I've spent over the years under the hood or under the car, I am absolutely delighted with the progress of automotive technology.
I remember those times also. Including changing out the motor in my VW Beatle. You jacked the car up, went under on a creeper unbolted the engine, dropped it onto your chest, and get someone to pull you out from under by the ankles. Installing the replacement engine was the reverse but you had to muscle up to lift it up onto the mounts.
That's well said. I remember as a teenager in the 1970s helping my Dad with car maintenance, which took up a lot of weekends. I've been driving a Kia e-Niro (Niro EV in the USA) for nearly 5 years now here in France. In 94,000 km it has been very reliable. There's a guy on the Niro Owners forum whose job is to escort long loads in the USA, he has a Niro hybrid and has covered over 250,000 miles in it, says its the most reliable car he's ever had.
Have you replaced the clutch actuator fluid??
Great history lesson!
Excellent recount of a time I don't want to revisit......points and condensers setting the timing with a timing light reading timing marks on the fan belt drive wheel.....
I drove a Volt between 2014 and 2018, I drove a Bolt EV between 2018 and 2023 and now I drive a Tesla M3 LR AWD. None of the cars above had a single problem that was related to reliability. It would be great to know how CR decides what's reliable or not, in the layman terms, not too fancy. Reliability to me is something that works every time as intended and when it's about cars, it means I can use it every single time I need it. Over almost 10 years, the 3 cars I had were the most reliable of the all I had before. And like myself are many others.
And I will give you a hint : I never was asked by any CR like company what I believe about my car or how I would rate it. How do you get your information for this kind of study and then put a verdict that the BEV are less reliable than the ICEV in 2023 ? If it were 2012, yeah, I would have said you are maybe right, given the Leaf and Ford Focus EV. But after 10+ years, the EVs of 2023 are above the 2023 ICEV in regards of reliability.
P.S. I re-watched the video and I know now what reliability means to you : a pothole that is hit or the cost of a fender bender. From 24:40 to the end your guy explains it best. All things that have nothing in comon with reliability but it is telling why he wouldn't chose an EV.
I own a 2022 Bolt and a 2020 KTM Freeride. People ask me about maintenance and I say "I don't know", there is none.
They ask people like me who had a Volt 2016 and a 2023 Tesla MYLR in a survey. Not everyone has issues with ICE, Hybrid. or EV. My best vehicle is a RAV4 hybrid.
You could literally be lying about everything you said. EV fanboys will absolutely lie to push their narrative. I had a 2023 Model S that broke down on the side of the road at midnight after only 5k miles. I can prove that with pics and videos. Sold the car when I learned it’s common on the owner forums.
Is your suggestion that since CR did not ask you or other satisfied owners you know about EVs that CR did not actually conduct rigorous research? Are national polls or surveys flawed because neither you nor anyone you know participated?
2021 Tesla model Y owner and loving the zero maintenance and reliability. Makes the old reliable Toyota look like a piece of shit.
Oh wait, come to think of it I did have to do some maintenance. The car told me the washer fluid was low, had to top it off. 😁 And I replaced the cabin air filter. 😂
Things Toyota hybrids and PHEVs REMOVE from a gas-powered car: Timing belt, accessory belt, alternator, starter, rear differential (AWD), torque converter, drive shaft (AWD). The electric drive and regen motors are not added to a Toyota hybrid, they replace other components that have historically required maintenance and were very troublesome. There is a strong case to be made that in the most reliable designs, hybrids and PHEVs actually don't have more potential trouble spots, but fewer.
Was looking for this comment, trouble points in hybrids aren't the same as ice + battery + motor
Exactly! They use the Jidoka principle, which makes all these differences.
Transmission has 4 cogs: sun gear, 3 planets, and a ring gear. Constantly meshed. -- no shifting.
I'm curious how Toyota's new HybridMAX powertrain will be. HSD is extremely reliable, more reliable than their conventional vehicles but HybridMAX has a conventional automatic transmission paired to an electric motor+engine like some problematic systems from other manufacturers.
FYI- Mitsubishi has been making PHEVs longer than Toyota. Outlander PHEV is highly rated vehicle but it doesn't come close to Toyota's gas mileage. Huge difference in torque.
Been following CU auto reports for over 60 years. In the past CU relied on surveys mailed out to members for their collective information. Same procedure for appliances such as refrigerators , tvs, washing machines etc. I am member and not received a survey in 3 years, about the length of time that I have owned my 2020 Bolt. My observation with CU is that they list problems by frequency, not the cost of repair to the owner. This is common especially with cars.According to CU, the Bolt has a poor repair record, for example. Why? According to the Chevy Bolt Forum very few owners have had problems with their Bolts. The two issues the seat belt tensioners were recalled, and then there was the traction battery issue whereby 12 cars world wide have, what was probably, spontaneous fires. The cars in question had their batteries replaced in one day and the battery warranty started over from that day. NO COST to the owner. CU needs to be specific on issues that drag a "reliability" reputation down, and that is on any product. Until CU does that, its opinion will be taken with , as they say, with a grain of salt. Example the 1989 Dodge Dynasty with the Ultra-Drive transmission. Avg issues with the tranny, but after 4 years CU dropped the rating to Worse than Avg. A 25cent C-Clip would break and require a total R&R of the tranny. From that survey I gathered that Dodge had a minor issue. Some cars may have issue with a door handle breakage: they would receive a worse than average as well. Which repair would you rather spring for? Case in point.
I realized many years ago after CU’s Suzuki Samurai debacle that CU’s reliability data was done “on the cheap” and there is very little evidence that it mirrors reality
Perfect critique of these armchair analysts. The assessments are unqualified. I drive a 2015 Volvo wagon which the ratings would say is low reliability. 8 years later the only unscheduled maintenance and recall was a battery replacement and recall on a door handle which actually was working just fine. I would put that record up against any Toyota over 8 years.
You should check in with them. I get a survey every year. Many forums are for lovers of that particular car. Not the most objective opinions. Neither are any car sites/magazines that take money from any auto maker.
They have been doing their survey's, via email, for sometime now, Ron. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say once or twice a year. You may want to make sure they have your email address.
I've been still receiving my surveys but exclusively by email or when I visit their site. So, I agree on the dropped physical surveys over the passed several years. There are cars like my Nissan Rogue that when I bought it was highly rated but when I check it now in highsight it is not. Stuff like that is perplexing because as much as I dislike my Rogue, it has been reliable. My wife's first model year Subaru was rated poorly AFTER we bought it but was rated well at the time we bought it. So far the Subaru has held up well (knock on wood). I've also seen appliances rated reliable have primarily negative user reviews on their own CR site as well as retailer sites.
We are new to having an EV. We picked up our Model Y performance in May of last year. We looked at the alignment of the parts and the paint. We went through all the controls and drove away from the service center with no issues. The purchasing process was so much easier, you could say that it was great to have none of the normal dealership problems from buying from a manufacturer that uses dealerships. This is a major advantage for Tesla. The underhandedness and willingness to charge as much as they think they can get from any buyer is a major reason to buy from Tesla and not from a dealership. Unless you really want to buy the 300 dollar “paint sealer”. LOL.
So here is all the problems we have had from our model Y so far:
How’s that $0 resale value? 💸💸💸💸💸
The major reason to not buy a Tesla is Elon Musk!
The CR panel missed one category from the 2nd question-cost of ownership. This is where the Model3 is far exceeding the Corolla. First, compare the weekly cost of gas to electric over a year. Secondly there are so many fewer systems to breakdown. Over the past month my Model3 cost $28 in electricity compared to the $140 it would have cost me in gas.
I wonder if we looked at the EV and perhaps verified how many major issues cars faced. How many EV's are disabled and underivable. How do we account for recalls where there was a manufacturing defect. If I buy a Chevrolet Bolt and have a pre-tensioner recall does that count as unreliable to your survey. I wish you gave more info on what the "reliability" measurement works. I own a Gas Sorento and a Chevy Bolt and I have had recalls on both the 2022 Kia and 2019 Bolt. None have caused me to find my car reliability impacted as the companies did the service efficiently and without cost to me. So if my Infotainment system has a glitch today and you ask me about my thoughts in a few months time and I mention that does that count as unreliable. I don't find your video is backed by scientific data which would let me understand your premise.
We’ve been driving Honda’s for 45 years. Great cars. We’ve had our Bolt EUV for one year. It’s the nicest car I’ve ever owned; Silky smooth, quiet, super quick and completely reliable. All this and no gas and no maintenance. It’s an amazing car and now after 45 years or more of Honda’s Toyota’s and a few other brands I got my first Chevy it an EV and we love it! You use a generic term, Reliability, which then gets repeated giving a negative impression which I think is a very unreliable impression especially when you lump in little inconveniences like a transient Bluetooth connection. The first thing my friend said when I got the Bolt was, oh I read they were unreliable… so your negative one word meme opinion gets out there and gets repeated and yes, EV naysayers thrive on that stuff. As does the fossil fuel industry. I know GM had a few battery fires in the first release and they had a massive recall to remedy that. We talked about that and factored that into our decision. No-one wants to risk a fire But, as I said, GM quickly addressed that. I think battery technology as all modern technologies will continue to improve so I am leasing and looking forward to my next EV but at 75 I don’t know how many new cars are in my future but I am so glad I lived to see this day when EV’s are on the road and that hours in smog filled traffic jams may be on the way out. Around town, with all my charging at home, this car is perfect. Range anxiety for longer trips will easily be eliminated as the charging infrastructure increases.
"Completely reliable"...after ONE YEAR? AMAZING! And yes, that's sarcasm.
Too bad that car was discontinued for 2024.
Waite till you drive a Tesla if you Dare
@@frederickfaller899 Own a Bolt, not knocking Tesla but I prefer the layout of my Bolt. Most of the functions are controlled by buttons and knobs. Now I understand Tesla has gotten rid of the turning signal lever and replaced it with buttons. I guess we should be lucky they didn't put the turn signals on the touch screen.
I was a Honda guy for many cars. I was a never domestic car buyer again.
Because of reliability.
But I bought a 2017 Bolt used with 54000 miles and it now has 145000+ miles.... and I've done virtually nothing to the car.
I would never get a gas car again. Especially after 2 40,000 mile years of no gasoline.
I had a 2001 Corolla which I give away about 2 weeks ago. after getting my new 2024 Rav4 Hybrid LE. The Corolla was faithfully reliable transportation, at over 168000 miles. I decided to get rid of it due to the location of an oil leak which I consider to expensive to fix for such an old car. I never regret owning it.
The RAV4 Hybrid, I am loving the fuel economy and the thing I training me to drive efficiently. I am no hypermiler, but on one day of the second week of driving it I decided to try to see what's the best I can get and I manager an averaged of 52.1 mpg coming from work. Today Nov 30th I avaged 49.0 MPG. I can drive to work and back home and do not go to the gas station for a month. I got it the 3rd of November and fuel up for the first time on 26th November and for two days last week I did more driving then I normally do, so I already knew from looking at the progress my fuel gage each week that I can drive for a month without pulling into a gas station. The two things that are priority in a vehicle ownership for me are reliability and fuel efficiency of a vehicle.
The fuel rating WAS such an important value because you saw that each time you filled the tank. (While I have not searched for it yet), the thing left out of ALL the videos I have seen is the cost of the electricity!! While KWH cost will vary across the country, HOW MUCH does it cost to 'fill the battery"? How much do you pay for that? Not just the electric bill, but you have to include the cost of the charger!
@@sharonscott9250u can plug it into a normal charger at home and charge it over night
And I’ve seen reports that electricity costs about 1/3 of gas, comparing price per mile driven.
If you add on all the level 2 and level 3 conversations for faster charging, yeah it will get pricier
I had a Volt plug in hybrid and managed to drive 6 months on the dealer gas before having to fill up......would have gone longer but had to make several emergency trips over 100 km that required gas consumption.
Their data collection methods would never pass the smell test in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
It's a feature, not a bug.
What did they get wrong?
Have you seen the detailed ratings on their website?
I have had 3 Nissan Leafs 😂last one being 2019, never had any problems other than the 2019 model wearing out it’s tires in 30K miles.
Also have a 2017 Tesla S for trips and it has not had any reliability problems.
My 2018 Tesla Model 3 has been so reliable I doubt I will ever buy another gas car. I can drive it 100 miles for $1.40. 150,000 miles and still going. I did have to replace the 12 volt battery after 5 years but they did it for free still under warranty.
The new Tesla don't have the Body & paint problem, that is FUD from CR.
Nothing says “I love sustainability” like having 4 cars
You noticed, too.
Virtue signaling
Lmfaoooo
Average Tesla owners do much more harm to environment than average people. They tend to be wealthier, and have larger homes, take more vacations (flying more), generally, they have much more carbon footprint, and emission even if they drive a Tesla.
You have no idea how many drivers they have at home or where they live…uninformed negative comment.
Model 3 over Corolla on any day! Thanks Jennifer!
Sarcasm?
Great episode. I want to clarify something without getting too nit-picky. (I won't go into the use of the word "less" vs. "fewer".) In the answers to the last question about the Tesla Model 3, the viewer as well as the hosts mentioned "rebates". There may be state government or other private rebates for EVs. But the federal government program if I remember correctly involves EV tax credits and not rebates. The big difference is that you must have enough tax liability (i.e. earn enough) to get the full rebate. E.g. if your yearly tax bill is not >=$7,500, then you would not get the full EV tax rebate possible but only as much as your tax liability for that year. Also the tax credits vary depending on whether the EV and the batteries in it were domestically-made, and whether the car is new or used.
EV credits are now being applied directly to the MSRP, so your first point is moot now. Your second point that some EVs may not qualify is accurate.
I believe starting next year, the 'credit' is taken off the sticker price up front. No need to wait for next tax season, and you get it regardless of your tax situation. However, next year, some of the Tesla's lose the full $7500 (it's halved)... see their site for details, and keep watching as it could change any time.
A longer trip on Tesla is not a problem. Their super charger coverage is pretty good.
My nearest tesla charger is 100 miles south of me, west of me it's 400 miles away. Where I live there is NO ev infrastructure to speak of
Yeah, the video mentions "it's around town" as though longer trips are an issue. They are not. I've had my Tesla for 5 years, and have taken it across country, both E/W (VA to CA) and N/S (FL to ME), with no charging issues. I do have to allow maybe 10 or 15% longer compared to traveling with an ICE car, but there are SO many advantages (such as letting the car do the interstate driving for me w/FSD) that an extra hour for an all-day trip is well worth it.
@@howebrad4601you must live in the middle of Death Valley. 😢
@@andrerodriguez7603 And I bet his house doesn't have electricity either.
@@andrerodriguez7603 He must live on Mars. I just checked: even in the middle of Death Valley you're only about 50 miles away from a Supercharger.
I don't completely trust cr anymore. The comments are an education 👍.
Why doesn’t CR display the amount of people that responded to each vehicle model in their survey? Vehicles like a Ford Escape will have more credible ratings than vehicles that sell in low volume like a Toyota Crown.
As a happy Chevy Bolt owner I have to ask, What reliability issues? I guess that first major service at 150,000 miles is a deal breaker.
Right On !!! I'm furious over this "report" which never even mentioned the Bolt. I wonder how much Toyota paid them.
Gee that’s a bit soon … isn’t it ?
Is that first major service a new 20K battery?
At 150k, who cares? You buy a new car and the battery gets recycled. @@msw7021
Bolt, best deal, produced since 2017, that's a +
so if you have an ICE car then you get a service every 6 months and the dealer fixes all the warranty items and issues that have risen, these are not taken into account as failures.
If you own a Tesla and only have a service as it requires it, every couple of years, other than that it us just software updates.
though if you call an over the air update a recall, the EV is worse.
I work with 3 guys who have 2012 Tesla Model S , their services are between 6 and 8 over these years, no other failures (Except when a laptop left on the roof was shattered by the Gull Wing door and the door failed as well)
Our family has had two BEVs (both Chinese built) for two years.
Neither has had any fault nor warranty issues, fit and finish on both is excellent. Both are very nice to drive and we have no charging problems on trips.
Neither has had to be serviced in that time other than free warranty checks. Maintenance costs have been $0.
Our EVs are charged mainly by solar panels. Net fuel cost over two years for two vehicles (about 50,000 miles) has been $125.
Motoring hasnt been this cheap since the 1950s.
Exactly our experience too. Our solar panels make this a no brainer deal. Our Polestar and M3 have been flawless.
Are there also rainbows and unicorns where you live
Yeah you got a garage to park that EV and an L2 to charge it with solar. Not many people has that options. But how many cars on the roads. You are just enjoying a luxe life. Forcing people going with EV is not easy for everyone.
@@tonymai1844don't dismiss it as a rich peoples thing, I got a Fiat 500e for $8k in 2018, 5 yr trouble free
How’s that $0 resale value? 💸💸💸💸
Tell you how they can get that F150 to have better mileage. Reduce the unnecessary bulk. Like most Americans, this vehicle model needs to lose weight. But instead, it has been getting more and more obese and over sized.
Uh oh, Consumer Reports got their new marching orders from Ford!
Hahahaha😂
I have not had any issues with either of my Teslas.
Toyota carries the non-plugin hybrid rankings, Tesla carries the EV rankings.
25:44 also, don't rely on tax incentives.
They have so many conditions it's too easy to not qualify. Based on the fact that they have 4 cars, I'm betting the income restriction would kick in.
Some context, Tesla has 53% EV market share and VW has 0.3%
Been driving the Nissan ENV200 for 5 years without any major issues.
I think it is a fallacy making ICE, hybrid and EV categories by throwing all makers to the same bag. What makes a reliability difference is the design of it. Hybrids look that much better only because Toyota has an amazing design which actually has less parts than ICE car. No starter and no transmission. I think a better comparison to compare technologies would be to limit it to a single maker. Otherwise the amounts of sold Toyota hybrids totally pollute your statistics.
As an european I must ask: in what circumstances do you need a forth car in the family? Especially since the declared need is driving around-town?!
My Smart EQ is nearly four years old and is now on it's third 12V battery and it's third HV battery. Mercedes have not changed any management or running components Just Batteries.
I find this so hard to believe. I think of reliability as things that make the car in operable. I’ve been driving EVS for over 12 years and have had very few issues. Fit and finish sometimes but that’s it.
Every time they have to fill up other than home and get an oil change should be a ding against ICE cars. Its nonsense that nobody should accept as a norm.
Same with my four years of use.
How often do you buy a new car or lease? Would you feel comfortable buying a 10 year old EV knowing you might have to replace the battery pack for 20k
Translation: EVs are "unreliable" because consumers are dumb and EVs are new.
First year, 2012, Sonic LS with 1.8 normally aspirated, 5M. Arizona burned off the clearcoat, but it's never had a recall or TSB, never an oil leak, AC, alternator, water pump and thermostat, suspension and brakes work well and have never been touched. Electrical, I've changed the MAF sensor, battery and one low beam bulb. All coolant hoses and the serpentine are just new. Over 12 years and 96k, it's been 100% reliable.
I guess I am the luckies EV owner in the world, the only issue I have with mine Tesla is Tires the chew them. 60k on it
What IS average reliability? What does an average car even cost in a year outside of warranty, how likely is it to strand you or fail to start? Because telling me Car B is twice as likely to have problems as an average car doesn't necessarily help me decide whether or not I want it. If 1 in 100 average cars strand the owner in a year and 2 in 100 of Car B strand the owner that's not really a huge factor in my decision-making.
Average reliability is quite bad.
I'm on my fifth EV. My first, a BMW i3, was great. It's now with my mother-in-law, and still running perfectly after eight years. Then a 2017 Tesla Model X... it blew me away. Loved it. The issues with it were suspension related... squeaky control arms needed to be replaced three times. Then a 2022 Model Y. Good car. Bare bones. Not as fun as the X. Replaced the 2017 Model X with a 2022 Model X. It's been flawless so far. Today we have a Rivian R1S and the Model X. Total number of times I've had to take any of my EV's in for service in the past five years... 6 times. Total number of times in five years I've had to take the Mercedes and Range Rover in for service... over 50.
There is no comparison. EV's perform like supercars and require less maintenance.
Comparing reliability against Mercedes and Range Rover will make almost anything look better.
Most of my friends with EVs say they are incredibly reliable, even while I drive them to pick up their EV from the shop.
Do they ever ask you for a loan to help cover the cost of that new battery pack? @@Feroce2023
Not sure reliability of an ICE car with very high emissions can be related to sustainability, or we must define for what it is supposed to be sustainable. On the other end, a reliable efficient EV with a LFP battery that would drive one million kilometres would be the graal of sustainability.
Are you factoring in the huge carbon deficit inherent in mining, processing, and transporting minerals needed to make a battery?
@@howebrad4601 "huge" carbon deficit??? It's a one time extraction, not ongoing for 20 years. !!
@@howebrad4601 And so drilling/fracking oil, shipping it around the world in supertankers, refining it, then trucking it to thousands of gas stations every day where millions of cars have to drive to in order to fill up and burn it into the atmosphere is somehow better? lol
Seeems to me you could have saved about 27 minutes- just buy a Toyota (any model). Wouldn't be good for job security at CR though 😀
Yeah, EV is for Ritchie. House, garage to charge the EV. 7.5k tax credit. These is not an option for most low pay working families.
None of these folks should be having this discussion. They are so ignorant. Such a hit piece.
I never got an email with the reliability survey this year. What month do you send those out?
I don’t hear you including insurance of EVs. My pricing says the insurance companies don’t want to insure them with their high prices.
The average price of a new car is above 50 k$ in the US, and you can buy a Tesla model 3 for 30 k$. You can even ask Tesla to insure your car, for quite better fees.
Model 3 has been a super city car
And great road trip car for me.
That's if you can find it in the parking lot. Ever 2nd car is either 3 or Y and all the same color
I am stuck on “100 years in the business” . I remember the old hands at auto manufacturing were crushed in the 1970’s when the Japanese entered the market. According to your view they should have brushed the Japanese aside. Where is American Motors?
Ever heard of Tesla ?
The ice has been developed and refined over 120+ years. They are very reliable and efficient with minimal emissions these days.
Minimal emissions would be an EV.
How old/refined the technologyis does not prevent it from being superseded by a newer technology. Consumer ICE has little headroom for growth in efficiency and reliability without significant cost increases. EV battery tech does not have such problems. Batteries are getting significantly more power dense AND faster to charge AND cheaper AND safer quickly. In about 10 years EVs went from niche cars for the rich to seriously competitive midrange vehicles for upper middle class families. Long range, affordable economy cars aren't that far away now.
I find your rating of the 2023 Model Y a bit curious. You give it a ^^ rating (your best score) in 5 out of six of your reliability categories and give it a VV rating (your worst rating) in one of your 6 reliability categories: build quality. I took delivery of my 2023 Y in January: it was built in Fremont California and has no issues with build quality. There have been some recalls and so far as I am aware I have not been effected by any. I was aware of a very very very few with a potentially loose steering wheel and I know I was not one of them. I checked the recall database on some Washington government website against my VIN. I have received zero recall letters. I'll double check the rest and get back to you if I find a problem. It is excellent you list them all online. Thanks. Further: there are software reliability issues. The sentry camera enabled monitoring software has a setting I have set to turn it off at home. I park in a garage inside my house, the car shows my location exactly corrrectly as my home address yet the sentry monitoring software often (not always) turns on when I get out of the car inside my own garage and that has not been corrected by service though they tried. Another problem is that the proximity monitoring system that is supposed to help me park safely tells me to STOP every time I back out of my garage. It is crude. If I obeyed it, I'd never leave home. When I bought the car I paid for parking features still not in the least delivered.
Just go into the Nav screen and reset your Home address. I had the same problem. This happened after a software update.
'Washington government', meaning federal? Never heard/seen your way of wording, so im curious.
Of course, the beauty of a Tesla is, over-the-air software updates. So over time, these things tend to improve or get fixed. And new features keep coming. Yes, there are many small glitches, just like there are on my iPhone. But it's easy to work with them, and it rarely causes me any grief. The basic functionality is so advanced in comparison to anything I've owned before (Hondas, Hyundai, etc) and it's such a smooth, quiet, and powerful ride, I'd never consider anything else. And that's not even mentioning the FSD -- which is absolutely revolutionary.
@@wincoffin7985 Same here.
Reliability is awful due to excess complexity in electronics and safety systems. Even makes such as Toyota have had failures with BZ4X and other recent offerings. What is scary is the deluge of infotainment systems that have gotten all too common place - this does not bode well for the future, like ten years from now when capacitors and back-lights fail on unsupported older models.
All these infotainments are also dangerous because they're creating distracted drivers. Take it from me, someone who drives an emergency vehicle for a living, people are so distracted playing with all this crap in their cars that they don't see lights, hear sirens or airhorns till you're basically on top of them!
Feels very hard to replace a failed infotainment system if the car manufacturer doesn't make them anymore!
@@IamGroot786 As someone who drives an emergency vehicle for a living, I would assume you know that one cannot use all these dangerous infotainments while driving, the car will just not allow it. And GPS are easier to read with a large screen, and it is good for safety. Maybe the problem is more about smartphone, don't you think ?
We have a lot of peripheral, unnecessary-to-basic-transportation cr*p in today's cars. Back-lighted displays are old tech that is being displaced by more reliable active displays whose pixels are LEDs and whose capacitors are within ICs. The fad of large screens for operating cars will pass, most of the virtual and manual buttons will vanish, and their functions will be performed "intelligently" or with microphones and cameras.
@@didierpuzenat7280 I think that if you have to look at a nav screen while driving, you have 4 reasons : 1. You are hearing impaired 2) You don't trust the app. 3) You don't know how to use it. 4) You need to make a change in your route. The last reason is only valid if you are lost, in which case you are distracted. (Most apps can reroute automatically if you get off the recommended route).
I only need to look at a nav screen when confirming my destination or choosing an alternative route - on my phone - before I start to drive.
23:26 Not jugging, but as a European I am surprised that a family can have 3 cars and needs one more. We are a couple (both working) with 3 children (all studying), 2 of them with driving licences, and we only have one car, a Tesla model 3 LR. We can afford to have more cars, we even have two garages and one parking, but it would be useless since we all use public transportation or bicycle or we just walk on a daily basis. And I do not believe to be an exception, at least in a city.
4 cars is a bit much, even as an American. But please understand that America doesn’t have Europe’s public transit infrastructure (outside of New York). Therefore, a 2-car family is a reasonable standard in the US.
NTSB 2022
Car fires per 100k vehicles
Hybrid 3474.5
Petrol 1529.9
Electric 25.1
Yet there are 100 times more gas cars on road and a lot of them are a lot older
But they burn more often.@@raymondweaver3078
@@raymondweaver3078 Correct. The stats need adjusting for vehicle age. I haven't seen official stats where older models have been excluded or separately categorized to allow for an apple to apples comparison.
However Hybrids do tend to be newer but have higher fire rates which is interesting.
🙄🙄🙄
I have had my BEV a Nissan Leaf plus 27 months totally without fault.
Why should I pay 30% more for the same car with fewer parts, less reliable, lower quality, and giving me range anxi? They should be at least 20% cheaper than a similar gas model to attract more people.
So what's really being said, is that the companies that are just jumping into a new-to-them technology, as many are, are faring far worse than the companies that have been building that tech for a decade or two.
You should comment on the weakening demand for non-Tesla EVs in US. Buyers of BEVs want Teslas, not so much the BEVs from legacy automakers.
Article, ‘Not surprising’: Recent EV models run into 79% more problems than gas cars, Consumer Reports survey shows. But here's why analysts say they're just experiencing temporary 'growing pains'. Replacing a fifty thousand dollar battery is not a growing pain that is a headache.
Also a free new battery for owners
I bought a 2021 X7 - first yeat t t model. Zero issues after 2 years. one of the most reliable cars ever i had. there are exceptions to the rule. Don't buy first year model...
Keep in mind that two of CR’s major donors are the Ford and GM foundations. Strong incentives to talk bad about competitors.
I agree. I have very little faith in CR. They were giving Tesla negative marks for over the air updates...
It wasnt for OTA updates but for selling cars with incomplete software.
First time I have heard this, I know Ford fanatics that think CR totally pisses on them. And I remember reading an article that said Alan Mullaly , that last really good Ford CEO that said he forced the arrogant management team at Ford to visit CR so they could really voice it out over the tables.
Ford usability on their vehicles is always so-so, to below average. Ford seats = in house and pretty terrible. Ford could use a human factors team that actually knows something and does it.
Something like what Mazda does... Mazda actually cares about the human factors.
No excuses for poor build quality the money put into development and testing is huge by all makers
How easy is it to find a Prius Prime on a dealer's lot? According to Edmunds, the closest one to Albuquerque is 321 miles away. It's black, which I don't like in the desert summer.
I know a few friends that have either model S or model 3 that have Hundreds of thousand of miles w/ their original batteries and all of them said not going back to an engine car😅 average ICE car is a money pit once they reach 150k miles+ with all the moving parts in the hood
Long time member of CR! Great to see you here on CZcams! I drive a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD SEL and my wife just gave up her 2017 Toyota Prius Prime for a 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 6 SEL RWD. Being an electrical engineer, I am very impressed with the e-GMP platform from Hyundai and we are both very happy with the cars (had zero issues so far) and happy to be a totally EV household. I think EVs are only going to get better and better from this point forward and I am excited to see what the future holds! Will keep you posted with our ongoing satisfaction thru the CR surveys! Cheers!!
Were either of your Hyundai BEVs recalled for the recent ICCU issue?
2:46 Excessive use of "less" when "fewer" is the correct word. And the woman does it, too.
Over 20 years ago stoped paying attention to CR other wise may not have bought the best car I have ever had a Tesla.
I am intrigued with the 2024 Hyundai Santa Fe Caligraphy. The tech inside is done so well and its pretty comfortable going on what I see in the 2023. Toyota and Honda last forever but honestly are lagging on the tech. Any thoughts on this view?
Just try to get your Tesla repaired and insured. A small accident and it's totalled. Toyota is keeping production down to keep their prices high.
I drove my Model Y over a nail and got a flat in the middle of nowhere. The tire went flat and needed to be taken for repair CARRIED ON THE BACK OF A TRUCK - but Tesla arranged it quickly and smoothly despite me being in a very remote area with no charge for being transported over 30 miles for tire repair. All I had to pay was about $20 for tire repair.
Got rear ended by an F150. Had the Model S fixed within 3 weeks. New bumper, trunk, lights, charging port. $7k. That is very reasonable.
was it a 50 or 100 mile tow?
All cars are easily totalled
P.S. In Canada a car that starts at -30 is what is the most important factor in "reliability". N.B. the EVs start in EVERY weather without a plug in block heater! A good example of 'data' collection is we have all heard about the VERY FEW fires in EVs BUT NOT about the hundreds of ICE cars that have had fires... and yes an electric fire is more difficult than a fire in an ICE car.
Nine years of EV ownershi[p and have had only one issue (battery heater). Better than my pick up. I think you need to look at longer view than three or four years.
Hi
Been driving my 2022 ID5 EV for 7 months, not had one problem with it.
The only thing I have found is the voice control is not good and I have switched it off.
As a driving car it’s the best I have ever had.
I would definitely by another EV.
I don’t see this video I my experience.
When you compare Tesla with other brands such as Toyota you have to look at the convenience of finding a local dealer to perform repairs. For example, here in the Portland metro area there are 3 Tesla service centers and 10 full service Toyota dealers. And there are a huge number of independent repair shops will service a Toyota but won't touch a Tesla. Portland area would be considered a medium sized metro area with about 1.8 million people across 3 counties.
This plays into insurance premiums and resale value.
But if you don’t need to service them as much…
I am driving a Tesla for the last 4 years and I have been just once to a Tesla service center, to buy and install winter tires. So maybe we do not need as many repair shops with EVs vs petrol cars (hybrids included).
Really helpful, thank you!!
But the difference is that Toyota Prius was great from day one. Only got better. They really didn’t have “growing pains” with hybrid tech. It was not half baked at inception.
Jake: You can't compare a Corolla to a model 3. That is not fair. I don't own 3 but I do Y. There is no comparison. People need to drive them both to figure out what they really prefer.
I would imagine that early adopter Tesla owners would know how reliable these things are. I’m planning to jump into the electric car world this summer and have been doing research. The biggest I’ve seen have been electronic issues and battery. The batteries issues are usually under warranty(this is separate from the standard warranty)or it’s a recall issue. I personally don’t count issues with brakes, axle, etc. Those things go bad on any type of vehicle.with all that said, an electric car sounds like a dream to me with the crap I e dealt with over the years with ICE vehicles! Then you throw gas prices in there? Easy decision!
GM knows something about reliability! Got to go with the EV leader with GM BEV vehicles like the Chevy Blazer! It literally decades ahead of anything in the BEV marketplace.😊
Im going to look at the data closer. Im glad you broke it down. My truck needs to run for a long time. I could care less about electronics etc. My wife however trades in every 4 years. That touchscreen and drive assist better work lol
We’ve had a ‘21 BMW i3…the engineers were given a bunch of money and were told to build a concept car…to sell more than a decade before. It has been flawless for 2.5 years of a 3 year lease…flawless.
I bought 2023 Model 12 months ago. No problems. Zip. However, I own 5 other gas cars and every one has been in the shop at least once. Go YESLA.
“Fewer, fewer, fewer” problems…not “less problems”….FWIW, I’ve owned 3 EVs and 2 PHEVs…my two Teslas (3 and Y) never had any EV issues…they had build quality issues and some computer glitches (same for non EV vehicles)….a Toyota RAV4 Prime that was excellent…no issues…a Kia Niro PHEV that had zero issues, and currently drive a Kia Niro EV and it’s been bullet proof…have had it 2 years and it’s never even been to the dealer since…
I have never had any issues with a car under 36000 miles or 3 years old
A really interesting episode, and great to see you as moderator for this one Jennifer!
2023 Tesla Model 3 - perfect from delivery to 12,000 miles later. 4 year warranty gives me amazing piece of mind. Another game changer with Tesla is the ability to remediate / improve issues with the power of software updates - just like your iPhone!
Great discussion. Yes EV is still new technology compared to ICE vehicle.
You were talking about reliability ( in sustainably ). I have always purchased used cars. My budget in the past has been 10K. I am hoping for a Tesla that is still reliable for that 10K or so. But when?
Is there a TL;DR that isn't a half hour long?
The problem with Tesla is not reliability is cost to repair. My out of warranty Model S had an AC repair that was originally quoted to be $4.5K. I took it to a regular AC shop that repaired it for $1K but their lack of software update freaked out the 12V system. I ended having to replace the compressor once again for $2.5K. Right to repair is an issue and until independent repair shops are mainstream were going to deal with expensive repairs
Dealership s, and insurance companies and Hertz rental cars (they had over 40 thousand EVs) and they all agree, EVs break more often, are harder to repair and parts are harder to get, take longer time to repair, resale value is the pits, and range anxiety is a real thing.
Nonsense! I have driven the EV problem-free for several years, and have NEVER had any problems with reliability. On the other hand, I had regular problems with my ICE cars, and in addition much larger maintenance costs for oil changes, timing belts, exhaust pipes, etc. which an EV does NOT have. In addition, the fuel (electricity) is much cheaper than petrol/diesel if you as an EV driver think about it and act smart.
Ford is not new to hybrids, they've been using the same Paice/Toyota two motor hybrids system for many years with very high reliability. The new F150 system is just poorly engineered.
What about the financial reliability, and the residual values.
GM has been doing electric for years (Volt). How are their EV’s?
OTA’s are all FREE
I bought a new Prius in 2011. 100,000 miles works good lasts a long time. That said I am retired and cannot afford a car payment. I drive a 2000 Montero sport and glad I have mechanic skills.
A perfect gasser needs oil changes & timing belt changes, brakes. When you note reliability, you should also include tco: purchase $ + maintenance $ + repair $ + fuel $. Repairs: severity, frequency, cost of repairs. This report doesn't track with my experience owning used EVs for 5yr, gassers for decades.
Talking about sustainability and durability, A Toyota ICE vehicle will last 30 years minimum. We have a 17 year old camry, it will go forever.Tesla are obviously built to last 10 years or the life of he HV battery. It is just not economically viable to replace a HV battery on a 10 or 12 year old Tesla. So it’s worth parts only value. A 10 year old corolla will still be worth good money.
Been a CR SUBSCRIBER for 40 years and have NEVER had a survey.
18:21 Good points to be made all around. Especially that reliability data how it pertains to how long one can keep their vehicles, including average cost of repairs as it changes from 2012 to 2022. In 2012, it was the Hybrid battery that was a problem, or CVTs, or the turbocharged engines. At 19:55 in 2022 today, we're looking at the different types of problems that results from growing pains (e.g. electronics and software) versus foundational problems (e.g. drivetrain). Either way, a problem means downtime for the customer, so for the EV apologists out there in denial, the average consumer wants their stuff to work and they don't have time to wait as beta testers. EVs may still be too new for everyday people to buy into it for its $40k asking price (before rebates at 24:02) . If the apples/oranges work in your favor, go for the M3LR and have fun. But for the everyday person that needs something today, Toyota and the other manufacturers have been in the game for a reason and the ride quality speaks for itself.
If you have to get a Model Y, stay with 2022 and above when they introduced the softer suspensions. For the Model 3, it's 2022 when they started using LFP, double-pane windows, fixed the water leaking into the trunk, and switched over to using heat pumps to mitigate cold weather EV range loss for all models. But if you're more insistent on long term reliability throughout the ages today, not tomorrow: Its obvious Hybrids have come a long way not to consider the PHEV options like the Toyota Prius Prime, the RAV4 Prime. And if your current car works perfectly for you? KEEP IT.
If an issue interferes with the use of an object, it is critical. If it is purely cosmetic and has no effect on use or longevity. it is non-critical. CR seems to concentrate only on critical product issues, which is good. But the video discussion and CR reliability reports both lack critical statistics - cost of issues to consumers.
This otherwise informative discussion was a useful statistic. The incidence of issues is interesting, but even if the issues are critical, relative frequency isn't useful to making an objective choice between substantially different products that perform the same function products. Absolute frequency and expected cost are.
Numbers of possible issues and relative incidence are "FUD" numbers. They give no information about the probability of a product having an issue or the cost of issues. I can think of 1000 reasons for my spouse to divorce me. If it happened it would be expensive, but the probability is minuscule. (btw, ALL marriages end unhappily, ~1/2 by divorce, ~1/2 by death. )
Saying a product has half the incidence of critical issues of another is meaningless:
1. If one device model has a failure mode or issue in 1 of every 10,000 items examined and a second model has an issue in 2 of every 10,000 items examined, the second item is half as "relatively reliable" as the first.
2. If one device model has a failure mode or issue one half the items examined and a second model has an issue on ALL the items examined, the second item is half as "relatively reliable" as the first.
Despite these two comparisons having identical relative reliability, the first group of devices would be objectively reliable, and the second group would be objectively unreliable.
Not all critical issues are of equal value. In a vehicle, an electric passenger door lock switch that doesn't work is not nearly as "costly" to the user as an ignition switch that doesn't work. Cost to the consumer includes not just the direct cost of parts and labor to remediate a problem. It also includes the loss of utility and the time and effort expended to get the supplier to repair the defect.
Expected reliability is the likelihood of a product having any critical issues. It's a measure of inconvenience.
Expected reliability cost is the sum of the probabilities of all known issues multiplied by their costs of remediation. While it doesn't describe what any individual consumer will experience, it is the metric that an insurance company uses to determine premiums based on products.
BEVs are significantly different in their drive trains, complexity and costs of components from ICE or hybrids. If CR is to provide its members with information useful to making a choice between them, I suggest that you start providing expected reliability cost in your reports.
You cannot lump all EVs into this discussion; there is Tesla and then there is the rest. Their comments are on the mark about the rest of the EV competition but Tesla does not fit the narrative at all. Teslas don’t break down. In the rare case parts are needed there is still a delay, however the repair rate is tiny compared to any other cars, ICE, hybrid or EV.
Because Tesla is the largest volume supplier of EVs by far with around 4 million on the road this narrative is way off.
Wanted to hear Jake's rebuttal at the end lol