The Wild Tale of Dark and Darker's Dev Battle - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2023
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The wild tale of Dark and Darker is a David and Goliath-type story between indie game developer Ironmace and Nexon games... or is it? Let's dive into this shipwreck of a mess with wiped servers, disgruntled developers, and legal allegations between the two companies and find out who's really to blame.
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#ExtraCredits #Gaming #GameDesign - Hry
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You guys always make My day with your content 😊😊😊😊😊
I get the big bad company angle but man did the dev not do themselves any service in the court of public opinion (and probably real court too).
And a tip for everyone out there. If you ever ask for permission for anything, get it in writing. And then take a picture of it because emails can be deleted or you can get fired and have your access revoked.
Yep, if it's not in writing, or at least in some form that can be displayed at will, it doesn't exist.
Nah. They did very well in the public sphere for anyone with a pulse.
yeah man, announcing a mobile game when they aren't anywhere near done development is a really good look. Same with the micro transactions@@larkohiya
Somebody please notice that valve had their 3 taped on their clock. Not even their clocks know what 3 is.
Still upset that the valve can't count to 3 joke is still applicable.
3:47 Love the little Walpole detail!
Speaking of Orwellian nightmare scenarios you might want to look into the rhythm game patent wars of the early 2000s. Konami got patents on literally any rhythm game with scrolling shapes heading towards an outline or buttons that make sounds when you press them. They used said patents to sue literally all of their direct competition (Pentavision, AmuseWorld, RoXoR, and Andamiro) and the only game that survived unscathed was Pump It Up and *arguably* DJMAX. (Konami has permanent Japanese publishing rights for DJMAX as part of the settlement.) They were so cheeky about this that the encryption keys for beatmania III THE FINAL are literally just the names of the competing games they were suing the pants off of at the time the security dongles were programmed.
I know you did a video on the Guitar Hero wars, but the preceding lawsuits over DJ and dance games are useful context. Several design decisions in Guitar Hero were done specifically to avoid Konami patents - e.g. the 'note highway' and the weird keysounding the game does.
Koei Tecmo also patent the most basic premises of a beat 'em up, in case you wonder why the "Warriors" type formula was never repeated anywhere else. I hope whichever adjudicating party permitted that patent is troubled by Montezuma for the rest of their life.
@@subtlewhatssubtle Seriously? Thats so lame. Because something I've always wanted was a "warriors" game which actually has the strategy layer that the actual warriors games pretend to have as window dressing. No wonder nobody made one.
@@ASpaceOstrich Yeah, they patented the idea of enemies attacking in groups and the weak grunts staying at arms' length to allow stronger enemies to engage you one on one or the grunts attacking as a group and getting destroyed together.
AKA every martial arts movie I've ever seen.
@@subtlewhatssubtle IIRC it was specifically the 3D beat em up. Otherwise Sega would not have been able to release Streets of Rage 4.
This feels like Atari era legal issues blasted into the 21st century.
Unless the video game industry and job market are very different in korea from the rest of the world, the fact that so many employees left with the mysterious 'leader A" meant that either he was doing something right or Nexxon was doing something wrong...
How about both? Nexon had a genius idea on their hands, but instead of giving the guys the power to express themselves and make the holy grail of rpg multiplayer games, it seems like they let their main dev down so bad he wanted to leave. Also it seems they got so salty about it that they "harass" him legally and accuse him just because he did his best to run a build server at his home during covid to keep the development running smoothly. If what they claimed in discord is true, he had a true passion for the game but Nexon wanted to quit on it.
a lot of people outside of korea dont know that the project got canceled because the devs left nexon, not the other way around, and it was initiated by one man who took half the dev team at the time with him.
As far as I am currently aware, this is speculation as both Ironmace and Nexon disagree on the timeline this took place. The courts in Korea will have to sort this out as the case against Nexon in the US was dismissed if I recall correctly.
Further problem is that tencent was the initial backer for leader A to leave the company before the legal backlash
I jumped through the hoops to play the game during the first torrent play through they had added a lot to game, it was fun and i hope everything gets sorted because dark and darker is a phenomenal idea implemented phenomenally A++.
"But... we all know why this is actually happening, right?"
"NEW DOMINO'S CHEESY CHEESE PUFF PIZZA..."
_Sometimes,_ ads come at just the right times 😂
You know, I thought for sure if a legal case concerning video games would get this ludicrous, it would be happening in the U.S.
i would say the seeds for this story have been sown thousands of times. most big publishers have internal incubation programs but most of the pitches get shut down cause some suit doesn't like it or its not clear how they could earn back 10x their investment.
so plenty of devs involved see how ridiculous that situation is but of course most don't want to take the risk of actually quitting their stable jobs to take on the risk of such a project themselves.
these guys did it though. but they took a lot of shortcuts to get it done, but then again probably they could not have pulled it off without taking those shortcuts since they would have needed external investment for that, this way they could just get it straight to market very fast.
its quite obvious that inside nexon this game would have never seen the light of day, and even with the legal delay tactics i think nexon will be incapable of cloning that game with the devs gone, and even if they do, they will completely butcher it with P2Win monetiziation.
3:25
Took me a second to long to realise why the 3 in the clock is taped.
It's not quite related, but I remember hearing Monster Energy going after games with Monster in their game titles. It's such a generic term yet they still did it because they wanted more money.
Lol they can go after games because they expect games to not be taken as seriously but imagine if they decided to take this issue up with any of the energy companies around the world for the term Energy. They'd be squashed in a second
LOVE these midweek videos guys! You rock🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤
Thanks for watching!
@@extracredits Always
5:08 - Upvote for clear Saul Goodman character design
this legal fuckery makes me think of a child wanting a toy they lost intrest in 3 months ago because someone else is enjoying it.
using the same asset packs is not such a weird thing. like on the unreal marketplace there are basically 2 usable packs for greatsword animations, most other weapons have 1 good pack if you are lucky so you can't just replace one asset pack with another since 90% of the content on the asset stores is trash and the rest usually has a distinctive style that you can't just swap out for another.
yeah and if it was just the asset packs that were INCREADIBLY similar it would be ok.
The Problem is that almost EVERYTHING about this game is super close to P3.
Combine that with the stolen data on the illigal server and things get realy ugly realy quickly.
@@vyran7044 yeah that is true for sure, though at nexon it would have never seen the light of day and lets be honest if dark & darker came out and sold like 5 copies nexon wouldn't even have bothered to check if they stole the code. the story is weird, messed up and sad in so many ways.
I had been thinking about buying this game. Guess I better snatch it up before it’s destroyed by legal battles.
This really seems like Ironmace wanted the creative freedom that Nexon wasnt giving them, and Nexon didnt realize what huge potential this project had
that is incredibly sad. It was the game that made me the happiest. After disco elysium and lone dark... It really was something. It had been soo many years since i had that magical feeling. Of focus and peace... Fully immersed and in the moment. the game was enchanting
the game has released
It's out now, go play it
Do note. It is not on steam. They have their own launcher from their own website. No torrents needed.
Might want to check out project zomboid and tropical island card survival for those great survival game vibes, as for a great story, America Arcadia nails the thing. Have yet to get into roadwarden and back to the dawn, but they might be worth checking out.
I would just like to point out that the wipe he performed on his person server was infact something he both had to do and was told to do by nexon after being fired as part of his contract.
Since he was no longer apart of the company he had to hand over any business equipment and transfer or purge any files related to his work at nexon.
Basically he did exactly what he was told and had to do and yet now people are making it seem like he did it to cover his tracks
Of course thats a possibility but even if it is they cant push on it in court as he was required to do so as part of his contract after being fired
1) he was told to wipe the server BEFORE he was fired. He kept it for long afterwards.
2) He only tryed to wipe the data after he was told to hand it over to the court. "to protect his privacy."
3) if you get told by court to hand over data/evidence it doesnt matter what you were told before. You hand over that data and dont try to destroy it.
The "asset pack" argument is total BS. Just because someone used a stack / store asses pack means that I can't use it? And I can't use what I learned working on one project while working on another one?
This is complicated, glad I'm not a lawyer
Sounds like an "everyone's an A-hole" scenario - Ironmace made a bunch of _really_ stupid moves, but so did Nexon, and Nexon has no qualms whatsoever about trying to crush smaller competitors out of existence so they're gonna do what they're gonna do in an effort to clear the path for their own project now that they know the game's concept has a big market.
Based strictly on what was presented here, I suspect Ironmace is doomed. It's gonna be a real tough sell that they didn't basically go make Nexon's game project without Nexon and just because a company chooses to not pursue a project doesn't mean that project's up for grabs by its staff.
I'm two Min in and I'm already not sympathetic to leader A. Quiting to start a direct competitor. Balzy. but NDAs are so hard to enforce, its doable. Starting a competitor after you "finessed" IP. You Fed in the A.
Edit, OH this is in EAST Asia?! NO way Jose. My understanding is that Korea and Japan went from 1K years of no IP to some of the most strict IP laws. The wrath of jibly and all that.
Lemme don my British Top Hat….
…Mmm…..
Quite the cluster!@#$ this is, ehh?
I'm always curious how vague something can be and still get copy righted. Have any of the big companies tried to copyright a game controller? What about removable media like a disk or cartridge? The NPR show "More Perfect" actually had a few very interesting episodes all about how copyright law is crazy bananas because its soooooo badly defined. It also never gets better because copyright lawsuits are usually over creative mediums and lawyers are literally, by definition, by the book so its like trying to mix water and oil.
Oh man this is a hilarious shitshow. Sure it's a little terrifying with the George Orwell future vision but the clown level legal battle is a satisfying watch from the sidelines
Isn't this eerily similar to TERA's story?
In 2007-ish, NCSoft canned Lineage 3 as Lineage 2 was still the... second biggest MMO of the time? I'd assume that only WoW was bigger. So hey, why make a competitor? Anyway, the team behind the project went "F you, we'll release it anyway in our own company" which lead to years of legal battles between NCSoft and BlueHole (the former NCSoft employees). Fun thing, both Nexon and NCSoft are also Korean, so we've had pretty much the exact same thing happen twice in the exact same, fairly small country.
... whether you can call Korea a "small country" when it comes to game development is a whole different thing, I guess.
iv been following dark and darker for a very long time and its just weird seeing a game that i once knew as some hidden gem barely known. to watching a channel iv watched for years cover it
"guilty until proven wrong"
aaaaah ... good ol' 'merica
Incredible video, small but pleasant and informative!
Thank you for the video.
They should have the judges play test both games so they can decide wether they are the same or not
that was quite the tale indeed
3:25 Amazing visual pun with the tape.
What me frustrates the most is the whole Nemesis System patent thingy. Because everything they do in that patent is typical software development strategy of sorting data. And they patent that under the premise that it is "new" in the gaming industry. They have events (like every other game) that start events (like every other game). Imagine the big 4 patenting their collected patterns for a lifetime + 70 years. We all would still be unable to use most programms.
Man i just want to play dark and darker :(
It's out.
While I hope the best for them… Iron Mace does seem extremely suspicious in this case. Good video
Thank you!
I love the detail of having tape on the clock in the valve office
I like how the Steam office clock didn't have a 3 on it. Hilarious. (3:25)
"You worked for us once, therefore we own every profitable idea you'll ever have in the future" is kinda the vibes Im getting from Nexon, and any real case they might have seems more of a circumstantial benefit to them rather than the actual reason behind their lawsuit
well no. you worked for us, so you cant just take the game you worked on (and likely data belonging to us) and make your own version of that game is mor like it.
If they had made a different game (and not stolen data...) there wouldnt be any problem.
Hey Matt! I love your videos, but I just want to point out that "coup de grâce" is pronounced "kuːdəˈgrɑːs". The P is silent and the C is not silent. It's just a small thing, but I'm French so it's kinda grating to my ears. ^^
Keep up the good work!
"Cut the grass" 😂😂
No Matt it’s cool I want the extended car warranty and I’m waiting on the data brokers to hook me up
That's amazing
Hold the line
...been playing through the all vids to catch up.
i don't know whwt time or day of the week this is..
I'm watching this all like i wasn't witnessing it in real time. the GoFundMe was right after I woke up.
Always get it in writing
As far as it has been explained in more detailed videos on the topic. Leader A was disgruntled with Nexon for a while before he decided to leave with most of the development team for P3. And Nexon hadn't actually canceled P3, they had to do that because he did take all the developers.
I doubt there is a good side and a bad side. But i also wouldn't be surprised if the big scary company is shooting for more than they have the rights for.
The fear I have in all this is how it might make it seem okay to steal trade secrets. People leaving a company to work on an exact copy of what they had been doing at the company is something that seems fishy, and it might make non-compete clauses more common, for good and for bad.
But let's all just hope good games come out of it either way.
I'll be the first to say, I literally do not care EVER about "trade secrets". Trade secrets only hinder freedom of information. Don't care about people who want to make profit off of secrets. Literally trash. We live in a society. We should benefit society and work from there. People using trade secrets just want to win instead of others. I don't want to "win" over others when it comes to "profit". Entire system is flawed and exploitative from the git go.
There shouldn't be trade secrets to be honest.
Lmao I thought it was gonna be about gaster
Hey, btw, the American lawsuit seem to have been thrown out by the judge calling it "a waste of her time"
It was thrown out because it was two Korean companies battling it out in a US courtroom. Basically the dismissal was on the grounds of "go do this in Korea, not the US."
How can a different media giant get this level of dirt again off another lawsuit like this one?
How much do they actually need?
It's a debate between two people who don't know how to lawyer.
I'm surprised your team is willing to express opinions like this.
Hold the line.
It was Walpole
Does Leader a,s name start With an A?
Anyone else read AAA as a scream? Just me? Ok
As someone who used to work in game development, I'm not giving Iron Mace the benefit of the doubt they are clearly in breach of contract among other things. Legally I don't see Iron Mace being around for very long.
Sure. As someone else who lives in reality. They clearly are not in breach of contract.
the lawsuit would be between the CEO of iron mace, not iron mace itself, which they did have a contract dictating these legal issues would be handled in korea between said person and nexon
it's a near global thing at this point... the Employee respect is so low, it's actively driving them to
1) do less work
2) plot against the employer
3) go on strike
this is a case of #2.
it's completely possible, this whole thing was planned a head of time.
asking someone for permission to indirectly run off with it? possibly calculated
best part is that, even if he "gave" the "stolen" stuff back... code and data.. don't really work that way
as they could just, "remake it from memory"... a company doesn't and can't legally own Experience and Training... and some how i doubt they would want the side effects if they could...
is Ironmace legally correct? depends, they may have twisted or dented a few rules on their way out...
but Ethically correct? hell yes, if Employers can hire Employees on a whim, take a few good ideas and then toss them away... then an Employee should be able to do their own version
So now microtransactions are bad? Weren't you people the ones in favor of them a few short years ago?
I like how the point of view of western and eastern people are different. While western are going for indie dev defense, to save indie games from copyright strikes, eastern are going for defnese of AAA studio's copyright, since stuff like this can undermine big companies to demolition. I am also going for eastern view since imagine, what would happen if wicher dev team broke up, and made an indie game called mager with the same assets as wicher and told this is a new game they developed for more than 3 years??? This is ridicule and to think about it, it could happen so easily since data is so easy to move and copy.
Sorry, when I here P3, I keep think of Persona 3
Learning how to do something with your previous employer and then using that knowledge to make your own company later shouldnt be at issue. To be able to say 'oh I taught you how to do carpentry, you can't go into carpentry as your own business.'.
This is only in reference to that specific part.
PANR has tuned in.
This is why you offer the exiting employee a generous severance package with a few conditions attached to the money. Pay them to sign a nondisclosure agreement and a non-compete agreement with at least a 2 year term (depending on the industry). If they violate either, they have to pay back the severance package plus stiff financial penalties.
Hey, just because you delete a bunch of evidence that courts want and which could (and probably) does prove your criminality doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Maybe you just forgot. Maybe you just wiped your server with a cloth and it all disappeared. Who knows?
Maybe they don't have need to provide information to someone just because they asked and they have right and freedom to use computer hardware they own as they wish which includes refreshing the hardware or changing your data storage whenever you wish.
they were asked to by nexon when they were working for them tho
@@Midwestemoisme yes. and they idgored this repeated order.
They only tried to whipe it after the courts told them to hand it over.
@larkohiya
They are not alowed to use hardware they own how they want to if "how they want to" includes illigal activitys. Like stealing data. or destroying evidence the court asked for.
This tale is so convoluted that I don't know which is right and which is wrong anymore. I'm just gonna wait for legal result from court, whereever and whichever would that be.
Same thing happened with Pokemon Uranium, a fan game about nuclear meltdown that transformed Pokemon into a new nuclear waste type that made them irradiated mutants that were super-effective against everything, similar to the Shadow type in Pokemon XD. Game Freak saw this because it was streamed by every Pokemon CZcamsr and they shut it down with a cease and desist.
Honestly if laws protect Nex here I wish they didn't. Silly that I can "have an idea" that gets permanently scrapped just because my BOSS didn't wanna back it. But when I take our collective ball and make something of it, they want a cut? Like no, they gave up. They said it was an idea not worth doing, so they don't deserve a cut. Let artists make stuff and bureaucrats suck eggs.
It's not about taking the idea, per se. Plenty of developers have left studios only to turn around and do a similar game themselves. The reason Nexon is going after Ironmace is because Leader A allegedly stole code and assets from P3 before sabotaging the project.
Imagine me ignoring crappy big gaming forever. We’re running towards what are effectively video casinos for children.
Nexon already did that with their games over a decade ago, so even if they're ever right, they're always wrong
So they definitely stole assets? Doesn't feel like this sets any precedent for other Indy devs
Its more than "just" the assets.
Basicly they let Nexon pay for all the pre/early dev costs; took the data and the build file for the in development game; left the company and retyped the code with minor changes.
Interesting info til it all went of the rails with slippery slope conspiracy conclusion.
Is a bit of a difference between a big company targeting a small company randomly for ambiguous reasons from an ex employee starting their own company and putting out almost exactly what they were working on previously.
Now it isnt unknown. Such as Former devs putting out modern takes on games that were classic hits under a previous name. Such as bullfrog devs reinventing Theme Hospital as Two Point Hospital. But NDA's and IP rules still exist which there are serious red flags for this because person quit/fired, then poached employees and quickly sold a copy of yet unreleased product they worked on.
Here's the thing though.
Even if they were legally wrong, who cares when it's Nexon being affected? The company that popularized gacha and "rental" items in games? Even if they're "right," there's no reason to side with them.
@@Kenpokid4I care about the objectivity of the law. And I was a Maple Story player from before they killed that game with microtransactions. If it's true Nexon's code or assets were stolen and imported to the new indy game. Nexon should win a lawsuit and be compensated for damages. The fact I don't like Nexon doesn't matter.
@@Kenpokid4 You can't flout the law just because you don't like them. The law should be equal for everyone regardless of who they are, otherwise it's not a justice system.
@@leetri It's already not a justice system LOL
@@Kenpokid4 All the more reason to not perpetuate injustice then. But from the sound of it, you're just petty and don't actually care about justice.
See,this is why core eeee aahhhhh ain't a state(yet,China-land real looking)...
i think your focus is quite qrong in this video.
Nexon has said the project never was mothballed and they arent suing because the game is only similar but because teamleaser A abused the pre dev investigations and tests being done within nexon costing them money and then left with who knows what files from the game to make a clone.
as far as i can see this is litteraly someone thinking they can get away with stealing. especially the fact that the server got wiped is going to put them in hot water with the court.
now to add on to your video. the teamleader lives in korea which is relevant because the korean police went and did a house search. which in korea is a lot harder to get approval for than in the west.
this is no daviv vs goliath or an indie dev being crushed under a boot. this is a rogue with a 20 in charisma charming us and telling us he defenitly didnt do anything wrong. just trust me and ignore the fact i am deleting everything that could have been evidence.