Woo boy. I'm not expecting this one to go well. It's a very spicy video today, but I think I do have a point with this one. Miraculous Ladybug is sexist. Here's why.
Let's not forget that Thomas constantly pushed Cat Noir/Adrien out of the story for the sake of propping up Marinette, as if he doesn't know how to write a strong female character without making the male lead "weaker".
@starsiadraws The way I see it making Cat Noir weaker doesn't make Ladybug look stronger, it actually makes Cat Noir a pointless addition. Think about it, Ladybug is already capable and compitant on her own. She doesn't need him, but he's there being a klutz and occasionally in need of rescue.
@DemonicRemption It's funny really. The character with the most ties to the main villain is the most pushed aside. Like NO ONE in the show has more ties to Hawkmoth then Adrien/Chat Noir himself. And yet they kick him out of the finale.
@@DemonicRemptionyeah I don't even know why she was like were are you cat noir? It really disturbed me from the colloter episode ladybug why are you begging him to come? Take advantage of him not wanting to help you you get cat noir free time and you don't need him
They kinda threw away Marinette's other personality traits in favor of her relationship with Adrien. Like what happened to her being really into fashion and design? Why does she always revert to this clumsy, stuttering idiot when there was more to her character. Give us more reasons to like her, this is why a lot of people prefer Adrien over Mari as a main character, because theres more depth to his character. I blame Thomas for the female character's main focus being romance or related to romance. He refuses to take any criticism constructive or not.
@StrawberryStar7 I get that, but it's excessive to the point where it's unnecessary. Even in the movie, she stuttered when asking Adrien out, but it wasn't as bad as in the show. As for her passion for design, I just thought it would be more prominent since it's one of the things we know she truly enjoys/has a passion for that isn't necessarily Adrien related. I would've thought it would be more important.
I’d like to add the constant sidelining or downplaying of Chat Noir. A good feminist story doesn’t have to reduce men just for the woman to appear powerful. It’s actually super reductionist, implying that she wouldn’t be as relatively strong if the men around her were smarter or stronger. It’s a problem a LOT of “girl power” stories fall into and I’m honestly ready for it to go extinct. Write actually strong female characters instead of being lazy
The worst thing is that Thomas thinks that Mlb is super feminist for that. As if cat noir having more screentime would make Ladybug any less capable or feminist.
Meh I'd disagree on the whole "a lot of girl power stories fall into that trap" thing. Chat Noir being sidelined is bad because he's supposed to be the second protagonist or at least the deuteroganist, not because every feminist story needs an important male lead or else it's "reductionist".
@@hexellent0324the op never said that an important male lead was necessary they are saying that the sidelining and downplay of chat noir just so Marinette can shine is lazy writing and a reductionist ideology, after all Thomas didn't need to include a male lead(I think he regrets it) if he was just going to make Adrien look like a bumbling idiot who can't swing a stick properly
@@hexellent0324 I wasn’t saying every feminist story needs a prominent male character. I’m saying the story artificially makes Ladybug appear more powerful by nerfing it’s male characters rather than actually writing her well
It's also that male antagonists like Gabriel and Andre end up being treated as more sympathetic than Chloe. I don't even like Chloe, but somehow Astruc's bad writing forces me to defend her.
honestly I wouldn't compare her to Gabriel or Andre but Felix. Felix did morally REPREHENSABLE shit like stealing the miraculous and putting ALL OF PARIS IN DANGER and then STALKS AND KIDNAPS KAGAMI and is treated as sympathetic??? That his backstory makes it ok????? And HE gets to be treated like a misunderstood hero? What a JOKE
@@asherville7163 I am happy that someone finally aknowledges the fact that felix did everything that chloe did (and more terrible things). Yet the the writers decided to paint him in a positive and tragic light, give him a fast paced redemption arc and a free girlfriend and all that happened in 3 episodes.
@@user-dk3lg9np6p and i'm happy i checked this! CZcams didn't give me the notification for it. To me, Chloe and Gabriel aren't comparable because they're drastically different in the way they're written and in character. Felix, however, IS comparable to Chloe as they're very similar in how they were initially portrayed (Remember: Felix's first appearance had him be the absolute worse similar to Chloe) Which is furthered by the fact the two are closer in age as well. Yet it's like night and day, somehow, Felix, who did WORSE things than Chloe, and continued to do worse things in his REDEMPTION episode (seriously why'd they have him stalk and kidnap Kagami???? AND PLAY IT OFF LIKE IT'S OK BECAUSE SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT?? It really plays into my theory that the reason Marinette is a stalker and Adrien as Chat Noir is a sexist sexual harrasser who has no respect for Ladybug's boundaries is because the writers literally see no problem with it because "well they actually like each other so it's ok!!" (with Chat Noir especially) Like Y I K E S the reason I would never recommend MLB to any child is for that and that alone) and yet HIS BACKSTORY SOMEHOW EXCUSES THE FACT HE PUT THE ENTIRETY OF PARIS AND THE WORLD AS WE SEE IN S5'S FINALE OK???? I don't even LIKE Chloe, she reminds me WAY too much of my sister whom no matter how many chances I gave her, always threw it back in my face and said I was the problem essentially gaslighting me, but if Felix can somehow be redeemed why isn't that applied to Chloe??? And I get WHY, some people just DON'T change and if you give them the opportunity and chances, they will throw it back in your face and hurt you, but that message wasn't protrayed well in Chloe's case. And again. If Felix can be redeemed why can't Chloe beyond the writer's misogynistic view of women?)
Miraculous is a show that manages to be sexist on both sides. It's like taking the male hero out to save the princess trope, gender-swaping it, and calling that girlpower. In reality, all of Marinette's passions in life mean nothing in comparison to a boy she likes and Adrien becomes nothing more than a trophy.
Mari doesnt even love Adrien, she has an obsession, but thats not love. She loves the "perfect angel child" facade he puts up to everyone bc of his dad's abuse, Adrien's true self is more prevalent when hes a superhero bc hes wearing a mask and doesnt need to pretend to be this perfect polite boy, as chat noir he gets to be himself: he can be Witty, sassy, selfish, childish. And funnily enough up until season 5, Mari disliked Adrien as Chat, but in Kuro Neko when he put that facade up again as catwalker, she fell for him instantly. Mari doesnt like Adrien. She likes the image he is forced to put up bc hes a public figure. If he was an average kid, that didnt have a dad breathing down his neck, Mari wouldnt be in love with him at all
Slightly off topic but it is so obvious to me that the writers realized they totally messed up by making marinette a creepy stalker so they tried to backpedal and justify it by writing the Kim prank backstory in Derision. They were like “there! Now it’s totally fine that marinette is a stalker because of that one little thing that happened in her past that totally doesn’t correlate to becoming obsessive over your crush!”
And it’s so entirely clear that this was punched in last minute too. If you wanna give a character a ptsd traumatic backstory, you hint their trauma and how it affects the story throughout the whole thing and slowly build it up till flash backs. This was entirely out of nowhere and they never ever before hinted at how marinettes behavior connects to any sort of trauma.
I think it is unnecessary how they just threw that plot point in there, even if it was a decent episode. But it doesnt matter what happenedto Marinette in the past, because whilst it might explain her behavior, it doesn’t excuse it.
@@kayc4841 Precisely. I was in a reply chain on Smarty Pants' take on Derision. Going back and forth with this one person who thought that the Creator was giving an "efficient message" on how Chloe was written in Derision. I countered their statements by telling them that the events shown in the flashback of Derision don't add up from what we've seen from S1 and S2. The latter where Mari/LB actually makes an effort to trust Chloe with something as crucial as the Bee Miraculous. And how Chloe was written wasn't an "efficient" message in Derision. Just another case of Asstruc being a man-child. Tl;dr; I clearly won the argument in the reply chain. Overall, the flashback in Derision was just some bull that the writers pulled out of their butts and wanted a good enough excuse to justify Mari's stalking behavior.
It's funny how if something is misandrist, it will usually loop around and end up being misogynist too. If a writer is willing to sacrifice character for a sexist message on one side, then that bigotry is likely to bleed into other parts of the story. Miraculous Ladybug genuinely seems to treat women as superior to men, so it holds girls to a higher unfair standard and isn't as forgiving when they make mistakes. Makes me grateful for shows like Winx Club and Sailor Moon that do girl power right.
Misogyny inevitably leads to misandry and vice versa. People often see them as competing with one another but they're really not. If women are seen as weak then men who act in ways seen as feminine are mocked and cast aside. And as you said, if women are held to higher standards then they won't be forgiven as easily as men. People really need to stop seeing it as men and women competing for rights, that's such a childish way to view things. EDIT: Can people please stop focusing on the exact words I use to see what I'm actually trying to say here? Maybe some of you don't like the term 'misandry', but we use words to get ideas across, and as long as people can understand the idea I'm trying to get across I don't want to hear about the history of individual words.
As much as I love Winx Club and how it characterizes the girls, it doesn't do male characters much favors; the love interests lack magical powers (except Nabu) that would allow them to fight off magical beings like witches, warlocks, fairies, and wizards. It doesn't really make sense what they're being trained for if most of the problems in their universe are caused by magic and most of them can't use any. Plus any male characters in the show who can use magic are villains or teachers (who are no match for the villains, anyway). Plus their characterization and backstories are left unexplored, save for a little bit of Riven and Sky.
@@randomdaydreamer9970 What you said makes no sense. Since when Hating Women ( Misogyny ) leads to Hating Men ( Misandry )? What you described is mockery of a lack masculine traits on a man, not generalized hatred towards men for being men. You literally proved the main comment.
As a woman, I couldn’t agree with you more. It isn’t equality if one sex is propped up while simultaneously putting down another. That’s not feminism, and that’s not equality. That’s misangury, hatred of men, can’t remember how to spell it.
Feminism was never about equality, it was always about having the same rights as men with out having the burden of any of the consequences that right may cone with
@@andrewcarlton6196tell me you dont understand feminism without telling me you dont understand feminism… you can just say you dont like woman dude
A thing to bring up is that while yes Adrian (as Chat) didn't stop asking Ladybug out he did eventually learn it was wrong, with one of the episodes (I don't remember which) he goes around destroying the signs that label him and Ladybug as a couple as he realises that she doesn't want to date him. Then during season 5 when Chat and Mari go on a date he calls the thing off at the end because he doesn't want to abuse the fact he has power over her with his secret identity, can you imagine season 1 Chat doing that? He wouldn't have cared. So this means that Adrian learns his toxic behaviour is wrong and stops but with Mari the show treats as funny and romantic with it being brought up by her friends constantly. Her backstory doesn't make it better, she should have been told by everyone that it was wrong (like how she told Chat) and learned. plus why didn't she stalk Luka if she refuses to date people unless she knows everything about them?
Omg that is so trueeee! One thing you could say against this tho is that Mari realized Adrian is a good dude and trusts people more now but she still does stalk Adrian sooo
If Marinette’s backstory was planned from the start of the show (most likely it wasn’t planned), then the writers been playing Marinette’s trauma for laughs.
And that's why in S3 the romantic go more to Luka and Kagami and i propably would be good if end with them as "ships" for characters. I think without masks was better chemistry with those two. And it's true, i think Adrien more mature than Mari. It's funny for me for her bicker for chat for his love when she do much worse thing than him.
Oh my goodness, thank you for saying this. The misogyny in this show is so insidious, but if you read into it enough, you can see it. So we’re expected to forgive Andre when he spoiled Chloe beyond reason, and enabled all of her bad behaviour, and is therefore responsible for the monster she became? No! Especially when, in the end, when Chloe goes too far even for him, he abandons her instead of taking responsibility for her actions, y’know, like a parent should. I think the other problem this show has is that Astruc is desperate for people to like Adrienette, and only Adrienette, and therefore, all of Adrien’s other potential love interests are made out to be monsters to make Marinette look better by comparison (With the exception of Kagami, but that’s only because she is later paired with Felix, and therefore not a threat to Adrienette anymore). It’s sickening to me that a teenage girl who was spoiled by one parent, and neglected by the other is made out to be a monster, meanwhile the parent responsible for enabling her gets a redemption. It’s also sickening to me that Lila was made out to be a monster too, as she started out as a sympathetic villain. Was it wrong for her to lie to Adrien? Yes, but was it right for Marinette to humiliate her in front of him? No. Lila could have been sympathetic, but nope, because she likes Adrien, she is a threat, and therefore an irredeemable monster. You don’t ship Adrienette? Screw you, Marinette is perfect, and the only girl for Adrien. Everyone else can get bent in Asstruc’s eyes
Beautifully point. Any girl PHYSICAL NEAR Adrien is a "Threat" to Marinette's soulmate. Goodness it's so thrashy writing and concept. Still captain of Adrigami row boat here!! Everyone have a blessed Wednesday August 16, 2023 at 11:20AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
The thing is, the writing has a way of only hyperfocusing on one part of a situation, and every situation is written like that too. Ladybug is being blamed for rejecting Chat Noir, instead of him actively stepping up on the same level of responsibility and leadership as Ladybug (in fighting) while properly talking about how his feelings are hurt. His hurt was never gotten through, and her irritation of having to be grateful for one’s admiration was never solved, despite it being an arc. And that applies to literally so many other situations and facets of the story. That’s why it feels so incomplete in so many ways. It’s like showing what shouldn’t be done while never explaining that it’s wrong in the first place. A problem being part of the original recipe instead of a deviated result.
@@StrawberryStar7 she didn’t have to be nicer, it’s just that there is zero explanation or dynamic representation to why the both of the are opps. There can’t be so much personal hate if the hate isn’t even directed to the person, instead it’s the role of happening to be a love rival. It just doesn’t make sense for someone as calculative as Lila to put in so much effort for an incomplete and circumstantial target of her motives
Your right that Adrians enabling of Chloes behaviour was a problem but don't forget that was only because of his dad's his forced stunned social and emotional development
@@StrawberryStar7I think what made me annoyed at Marinette in that moment was the fact that she abused her powers to tackle a personal issue, Lila didn’t know that Marinette was Ladybug so I’m sure it would’ve been quite humiliating for her to be talked to like that by her hero, especially in front of the boy she likes. I’m not defending her actions ofc but Marinette was way out of line there
I feel the same thing too, also the story is lost and poor written. Because of all these causes I left the story at season 3 when Thomas kicked chloe's redemption arc like it never happened it was the end of the show for me. Even though i never continued the story my sister mentioned for me the disasters written after that.
@@emphobia2268We wouldn't have to say that if they just kept going on the path that they were on. And it ain't crying it's realizing that a writer squandered a good thing and being pissed about it
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydoll It made me laugh. That and the part where Chloé landed in the trash. Not because I hate her, but more because I like that kind of joke.
This is literally everything I feel all the time, like COME ON, for someone who likes to preach about how “feminist” this show is and calls people “sexist” for wanting more screen time for Adrien, Astruc does not do a good job at actually writing a feminist narrative Edit: I’m still so upset about Chloe’s failed redemption because, despite what Astruc tries to claim, she did have a good redemption arc going but they just ruined for literally no reason
all she needed was to feel useful (they said in maladictator) but nope apparently that doesn't exist anymore this is just one of my many issues with the show now.
I believe Asstruc ended that because she, a 14-year-old girl, is "irredeemable" (his word, not mine). I think he thinks that because I heard he based her off a girl who used to bully him
@@YuriPlisetskyKinnie Agreed. One of the many reasons I stopped watching the show. (The movie was amazing in comparison to it. Not that the bar was very high.)
I think the Chloe part is especially concerning given the fact that she's a teenager on top of being a victim. Astruc basically said that a what 14 year old girl? was irredeemable even though she's in the most important years of her development of self and social identity. Everyone has the potential to change at least to SOME extent but ESPECIALLY teenagers, especially teenage girls too who tend to be put through greater social difficulties during their teen years. Her being 'fundamentally bad' is an awful message to children because nobody is completely fundamentally bad.
@@Audreyana I swear he loves protecting marinette at all costs despite her evident flaws and punishing Chloe for literally anything it’s such an awful thing to teach kids
I'll explain the mess here. Every character in this show except for Marinette is a stand in for a real person Thomas knows. They are either Thomas himself, a rival of Thomas', an ex or someone who rejected him. This is why so many characters are one note meanies or get the shaft in some way. Marinette isn't a real person stand in, she is his ideal both in terms of the ideal woman and in terms of his own power fantasy of always being the best. He can't seperate himself from the ahow because it's all one big Mary Sue fanfic.
There's also the fact he once said he considered Marinette to be a fictional version of a daughter he dreamed of having his ex girlfriend. How creepy is that?
Asstruc is genuenly psychotic, he puts Mari in this pedestal bc she's supposedly the imaginary daughter he wanted to have with his ex, Chloe is treated like absolute shit bc she's based on a bully he had. Dude doesn't know how to separate fiction from reality and it shows, he's extremely unprofessional and I don't understand how no one fires him and takes his rights as the creator. Bc if I were a producer or a studio, i wouldnt hire this mess of a guy
For a "empowering girl power" cartoon Astruc surly does love to antagonize teenage girls that are not Marinette or her yes-men. Fact that we got two "unredeemable" teenage girls but main male villain gets redeemed despite years of abusing his son and year of brainwashing and murdering civilians (kids included) that main character thankfully can reverse is absurdly misogynistic. Not to even mention show creating weird suggestion that women are only worth something when they get a partner. Notice how only single girls Marinette knows are the unredeemable Satan reincarnated who are desperate to get with Adrien who's treated as this weird prize to win while all of her good friends are either in relationships, having a crush or are totally irrelevant on verge of being (i miss my aro icon Alix).
@bingchungusit doesnt make sense why shes so obsessed with Adrien specifically. If its the money, why not move to any of the other rich kids that we seen in the show? She doesnt even like him, she just think hes prettya nd wants to do it to hurt Mari. Lila is supposed to be our next big bad but we not only dont know Jack shit about her, shes been around for too long and we still dont know her motivation, shes just there, her lies are silly and don't make sense, theres no reason why shes so hellbent on this whole drama
is incredible how the movie fix MOST of this problens.... Gabe being a truly simpatetic villain, Marinette not being a creeper and adrien being the same cinnamon roll as always... how they made that
@matheuscoutinho8590 SAME! it's a very dumb plot point. It's just basically "the princess saving the prince" type of trope (at least I think it is.) Just let him be a human.
If you think about it, this show already shows how Ladybug doesn’t actually need Cat Noir or his powers, because she can just break the akumatized object herself and capture the akuma. Cat Noir is literally just only there to carry on the plot.
Astruc couldn't write a strong female hero so he had to make a male hero useless in comparison. It would be so cool to see them actually work together since their abilities are meant to be completely different (creation and destruction). She can be a main character while he can be an actual help during battles.
FRRRR literally one of the reasons why I preferred the new movie, even if it was FAR from perfect and it had its flaws, it at least made it very obvious that both Ladybug and Cat Noir were only stronger together and only that way would they be able to defeat Hawkmoth. They should've never named the show "Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug AND CATNOIR" bcs Cat Noir was never really an equal partner... even her powers work without Cat Noir's and her powers are more OP than his 💀💀
Not just the writers, the fandom too. During the season 3-4 hiatus most people were fine with Luka dating Marinette but hated Kagami because she was getting in the way of Adrienette.
I remember that. Oh sure. Marinette deserves happiness. And Luka. But God fucking forbid Adrien and Kagami get happiness too?! People were so nasty to Adrigami shipper's when they broke up! I'll never forgive the fandom for how they treated Adrien in season 4 as well as Kagami! They both deserve better than the hate they got!
Well- Firstly, I'm NOT that deep into the Miraculous fandom bcs some of those fans/shippers give me the creeps. But I personally liked Lukanette bcs they were overall a good match. I wanted to give Adrigami a chance but when I saw how Kagami told Adrien to "stop acting like a clown" bcs "this isn't the real you", I knew they were just not a good match. Also- how Adrien literally ditched Kagami time and time again just to flirt and be with Ladybug left a bad taste in my mouth. Bcs I never saw Adrien's character as being such an a$$hole to do that, his writing as a character was horrible, and bcs it just made me dislike him as a character. Bcs he was basically hurting Kagami the same way he got hurt by LB, so it made him look like a hypocrite. Not to mention how both ships sunk barely 3 eps into the new season, and the writers just messed it up so much... I guess I personally wanted Adrien to look for someone who loved him for who he really was and I wanted Kagami to find someone else bcs she deserved better. She deserved someone who made her feel like she was special to him. Oof rant over, but yeah- that's basically it. However- I do agree that the hate they got was so unnecessary and downright disturbing when u saw what was being said about them.
There's definitely some misogyny there but i think it's also because Kagami was an actual character with flaws and issues pf her own. Meanwhile Luka had as much character dept as a cardboard cutout. He was a clean slate that people could mould into the perfect boyfriend they felt Marinette deserved.
I can’t even lie Thomas Astruc is really weird and actually insane for portraying Marinette only being able to do well by excluding Chat Noir. The involvement of Adrien toward the finale was also really fueled by the fanbase that Ladybug/Marinette isn’t competent for reasons that wdn’t be brought up if it were Adrien(he is uninvolved, but Marinette was blamed for things like being nervous arnd him and for rejecting Chat Noir). But we just want Adrien to be.. involved? For them to have an equal partake in unfolding the story too.
The season 5 finale rubs me the wrong way. In the climax of the Agreste arc they leave out the most important character to the arc. The son of the main villain. We have a Chat Blanc flashback to show us that "this will happen if he came", but where's the character development. Imagine he was there and found everything out only to resist the Akuma or not even get Akumatized at all. Would be stellar development and show us that from season 3 to now, he has changed.
^Reasons why I prefer the movie over the show now... even if I know the movie was FAR from perfect. Also, I didn't watch the finale but apparently, Marinette (as Ladybug) never even told Cat Noir about Hawkmoth??? It just reinforces that he's not really an equal partner. And it rubbed me off the wrong way how Marinette straight up lied to Adrien that his dad was a "hero"... like- the kid was neglected and in other timelines we saw his dad not giving 2 craps about taking advantage of Adrien as Catnoir.. so idk- I hate how Adrien believes this horrible lie bcs he apparently wants to be like him or he will never be like him os smth like that. So I'll keep the movie's ending as canon in my mind... Thank goodness Astruc didn't touch the movie with his "writing"
Here's my take on it. I think they should have made them both the main characters, like seasom one is about Marinette, and season 2 be about Adrian, and so on so on. They could have made this a great show until Tomas ruined it.
fr, maybe not exactly like that, but make episodes feel more dynamic and make it feel more personal. it’s like we are watching a third person play through and only learn about Adrien through Marinette.
@@almost_eden That sounds great for this type of show, I was just thinking about the original Teen Titans, I know it's not the same thing but it would be awesome to see the show be more life like than this.
Exactly my thought and I actually think it would’ve been better if cat noir was the only one who could destroy the akumatized object and Ladybug was the only one who could catch it, then both of them would be important in every battle.
Yes i love that I Dea but I think it would be better if Adrian was the 1st main character so Mari can be the Mc in 4th bc that season is like mostly her being the guardian and going insame
Im between if its sexist or just wants to make everything about Marinette because shes the MC, due to some key points: -Marinette stalker behavior towards Adrien and if the roles were reversed, would Adrien be seen as the bad guy for this. Or if any other character did this, they would be seen as bad, but because its Marinette, its seen as romantic. - The reveals with Alya, Luka and apparently now Kagami, with Marinette now being able to share the burden of being LB with other people, and yet Adrien hasnt shared his identity with anyone. Heck, Luka knows and he never talks to him about it or sends anyone to help him. - Marinette gets a power-up and a new form for her Miraculous, and yet Adrien doesnt. -Both Adrien and Marinette have issues and problems, but it seems the show only likes to highlight Marinette's.
YESS. there are entire videos that direct the rhetoric of more Chat Noir involvement but serve the reasoning of Marinette being blamed for things that wdnt be stressed if it were Adrien. It’s to the point where Lila (who constantly lies) is being compared to being more badass and confident than Marinette 😨
@@StrawberryStar7 being 2nd isn't an excuse to being throwed aside and die each 2 episodes. Almost every media about miraculous feature Ladybug (1st, right) AND Cat Noir. Not ladybug then, after a while, cat noir
I mean, I do agree Audrey deserves no redemption. She's a child abuser, literally one of the worst things a human being can do. But then Gabriel should have been treated that same way, dammit! And Andre isn't an innocent angel in his family's situation. He gave Chloe money and privilege and called that as good as raising her, not to mention, as the other adult/parent in that situation, by not stopping Audrey from emotionally abusing Chloe he's an enabler. They should absolutely be faced with some kind of accountability. Another thing that bugs me is that sending Chloe to live with her abusive mother is treated as come upance. That kid is going to get so traumatized and she will not deserve it.
Exactly the point, all the girls won't/shouldn't get redeemed and are just evil. while the boys are just "soft boys" underneath it and can get redeemed
Im so sick of seeing most female characters stories surround a male crush. Yes, having crushes of boys is totally normal but you know what isn't? Making it your whole personality trait and throwing away any aspiration or goal you had before in favour of getting with a guy. Also this is slightly off topic but i feel like this trope can be very alienating to any girl who isn't straight.
Okay so I don't like to self promote (that's a lie, I have a whole channel for it) but I'm writing a lead female character who is the exact opposite. She doesn't trust men, matter of fact she thinks all men should burn in hell (her backstory includes rape and sexual abuse) but throughout the book she learns how to trust them and slowly opens up to them and accepts their help
This is why I've always thought the hyperfixation on love and romance wasn't a good theme for a kids cartoon. When in the wrong hands, it becomes horribly regressive.
I would like to add that Ladybug does indeed keep leading Chat Noir on, especially during the first three seasons, as she's constantly calling cute nicknames, scratching his chin, giving him kisses, etc. It makes sense Chat Noir would think she's playing hard to get whenever she rejects him. But of course, as everything that Astruc puts his hands on regarding this show, it goes for way too long, oversteps its boundaries and is repeated for the sake of status quo rather than for narrative reasons, which in turn makes everyone involved seem worse than they're intended to be.
Yea ikr, like I hate when people say the fact that ladybug said no and that cat noir should stop insisting when ladybug does things like this, like seriously
@@andrewcarlton6196 I'm sorry, but no matter what the culture is like, any boy would get confused by her behavior. I live in Brazil, we have the same culture as France of kissing on the cheek as a form of greeting, but nothing as flirtatious as what Ladybug does to Chat Noir. Also, within the narrative, no other girl flirts like that either Adrien or Chat Noir, nor does Marinette show the same behavior she displays towards Chat Noir to any other boy. She's leading him to flirt with her, then rejecting him whenever he makes an advance.
The last four episodes really was my last straw. The fact that Andre the mayor-who was mentioned by Chloe twice to be corrupt and sabotages his opponents to get what he wants, and other than when she needs him to give her power, Andre isn’t that present in Chloe’s life-and Gabe as Hawkmoth-who gave her superpowers to fuel off of that hatred and power molded my mostly her father which caused her to be more intensely terrible in the later seasons-aka two shameless abusive ADULTS get to be redeemed, but Chloe, the child in all of this and the product of both of their evil, is seen as irredeemable is such a slap in the face.
Thomas really thought that "subverting" the damsel in distress by making Marinette the knight to save Adrien WHILE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY AGENCY OR KNOWLEDGE was a great way to do female empowerment, what a clown Guy even tried to do the whole "Don't tell Harry" from Spider-Man
It just doesn’t work. Because Peter Parker cared about Harry and Norman. Marinette does not have that kind of emotional investment of any sort with Gabe. Which is a shame because the story could’ve drifted to where Marinette was designing clothes and Gabe takes notice thinking she’s talented, having a student mentor relationship. But nah, they skip over that and decide to screw it.
Honestly. In the famous words of Undertale. Thomas asstruc definitely has a stubborn determination soul. Wouldn't stop Flowey from killing it though. Like can we please just leave Thomas asstruc on the street to die?
In early seasons the writers created Marinette as a tropey character without a lot of depth, and Adrien as a well-rounded character with fascinating and personal conflicts with the main antagonist. Instead of developing Marinette with a similar amount of depth, Astruc tried to make the show more female-centric by shoving Adrien as far into the background as possible. Instead of putting in the work to avoid misogynistic tropes and make Marinette as complex as Adrien, Astruc basically sabotaged his deuteragonist and the ending of his own show. He didn't have to do that... Marinette was getting more focus with the Guardian storyline anyway... 😔
I’ve always had a hard time shipping Marinette and Adrien because of how they act around the other person. Like Marinette is a stalker and Cat noir is just pushing too hard and being creepy as well. That’s not really healthy so I never really wanted it to happen but I guess it’s kinda cute now when they’re actually together but I would’ve preferred if Marinette had a bit more arc and personality and that their romance was build up in a good and healthy way.
True, this is why I kinda wish they stuck to the anime version. It looked like they would have better character development and be a better story overall.
tbh cat noir's behaviour was understandable in my head ig.. like he always thought she was playing hard to get and that's what it looked like to us in the audience. Yes it was too much on his half not getting the signs but honestly ladybug was always super flirtatious w him and then pulling away....i can't imagine him not thinking it was done romantically. Plus yes Mari was super creepy as a stalker ig now we know from that kim epidosde but still i couldn't feel bad for kagami or luka that got in the way of her trying to confess to adrien. OMG I WROTE A WHOLE PARAGRAPH BRUHH I HAVE PENT UP RESENTMENT LMAO
Nah fr fr, Luka and Kagami were done dirty for being pushed into an already cramped love square. And I totally agree that although Cat Noir was pushy and I can understand her rejection of him. She was also giving mixed signals afterwards. Like, let your yes be yes and no be no pls 😅
That is such a good point, comparing the treatment of female villains vs male villains. They completely turned a blind eye to Andre’s role in making Chloe who she is, we don’t ever see Felix even apologize for his inappropriate behavior towards Marinette nor his almost killing people, he’s just given instant redemption. Gabriel, who is so steeped in crime at this point, got a redemption because he does one good deed at the last minute. That’s like a crime boss on death row being freed and getting a statue because he does one good thing at the end. It’s bogus. Meanwhile all the female villains are 100% irredeemable. Yeah that really is a Yikes ! 😅
Girlpower completely ruined adriens character He should have been in the final but he is written out of the story of his own family just so that marinette shines WTF
This isn’t a feminist story, though. I hear everyone talking about how strong of a female lead Marinette is. She isn’t strong. If anything, she’s very weak as a lead. Marinette is an obsessive stalker. She constantly uses her powers for selfish gain, all while never learning her lesson and growing from it. Sure, we’re told she learns her lesson at the end of each episode, but we just repeat the same things over and over again. Marinette’s obsession with Adrien led to catastrophe in the Season 3 Finale, she said she would get better, and then the exact same thing happened in the Season 4 Finale. Marinette then KEPT pining over Adrien. Rather than let Marinette realize that her unhealthy obsession was unhealthy and that she didn’t deserve Adrien as she was, the show instead had Adrien randomly throw Ladybug aside and fall in love with his stalker within a few episodes of her not doing anything different. It’s pretty ridiculous. Marinette is romance-obsessed and never learns from her mistakes. I’d hardly call her a strong female lead at all. Heck, she more fits the archetype of Chat Noir, overall.
Agreed. I honestly felt Bunnyx was a way more interesting character even Marinette’s best friend is more interesting (correct me if I’m wrong it’s been years for me)
I once saw a tumblr post about how someone watched miraculous ladybug back when they still identified as a girl and thought that Marinette's behaviour was to be expected for girls and so when they had a crush, they started tracking down all information on the boy. When their parents found out, they repremanded their child for having adopted such stalkerish behaviours as that is not normal
thank you for this, people are very quick to point out the inequality in screentime with marinette and adrien when the topic of the show's sexism comes up but nobody talks about how awfully this show treats its female characters. the deadbeat fathers of the show all get their redemption while some little ass 14 year old girls are treated like satan incarnate, it's wild
Something that I haven't seen people mention... Emilie Agreste story is also pretty sexist? She is a combination of woman in the fridge/dead by childbirth (metaphorically) trope. I remember when everyone thought that the show was going to subvert those tropes and Emilie's backstory was going to show she was more than a plot device, either because she was a past superhero, a supervillain worse than Gabriel... or something else you know? But nope, she was there to birth Adrien, leave some plot-convenient videos and woobify Gabe 💀
I actually have a question with the whole story of this show. If the Ladybug and Cat miraculous, when combined, can give the holder a wish that can rewrite the universe, why would Master Fu even give out the cat miraculous? I mean, Yin Yang and all that, I guess, but it really isn’t needed. The Ladybug miraculous is used to stop akumas, but the cat isn’t. So why wouldn’t he hide the cat away to prevent Hawk Moth from ever getting it? He could have given Adrien any other Miraculous. It just feels so stupid to me.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydollwell we’re used to them being together. If he and [instert kwami] we’re together for a long time, we’d say “but they’re awesome together!” honestly I think Trixx would’ve been a better choice.
Given how the writing of Miraculous' story has been developed through the seasons, I simply don't think they had already decided all the other kwamis' designs, superpowers, etc, at first The "plot" is full of things that don't really make much sense or are far fetched at best, especially when putting everything into a chronological order... At times it seems to have more holes than a Swiss cheese and just recapping it out loud often sounds delirious >~
I remember a CZcamsr who made a video about this, like how Marinette scolded and even hit Adrien when they switched Miraculous becauae she thoughr he wasn't taking his job seriously enough. She was a girl, and she herself found it pretty sexist (plus other aspects of the show).
@@user-bs2ds9vm2m If I recall correctly, it was Animepuffz, but IDK what happened to her channel. She also ran Pixie Academy, but she hasn't uploaded anything there in a while.
It's actually pretty sad that she is Mary Sue but also at the same time, she is so... shallow? I mean she is good in everything (gaming, fashion, baking, etc.) but all of that skills are there because it's making her closer to Adrien (she played games with him, baked cookies for him, she's into fashion and he's a model). It doesn't feel like she's into things, she just has skills. She mostly talks with her friends about him like there is no topic that teenage girls could be talking about. I would love to see her being a person outside of Adrien. There is nothing wrong with writing a girl that is in love. But she's not in love, she's a creep and these types of behaviours are shown as appropriate since Adrien and Marinette end up together. And every girl that is a threat to her love with Adrien is basically a monster so she's "not that bad".
God, I know right? Give me Usagi's "I am scared, but I'll do it anyone, because someone's gotta!" over Marinette's "Oh look a toilet cover-- AND I KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO USE IT!!" every day... Not to mention the way better written friendships and minor characters and better villains and Usagi being a truly empathetic person and... Damn, I miss Sailor Moon, it was so good!
@@Rossweise Sailor Moon truly inspired so many magical girl shows we have today. But I cannot believe that Miraculous was inspired by Sailor moon when their main character’s personality is only having crush on Adrien. Growing up I loved Usgai as a main character b/c she’s so relatable a teenager who barely knows anything abt being hero becomes one through her emotional traumas and becomes a stronger person through it inspiring many girls to be confident in themselves.
Miraculous was never a girl power show, it's a Marinette-power show. (I love Marinette, I just hate how the show tries to market it as girl power when it has all these issues)
Ok with the Ladybug rejecting Chat Noir part, the times where he does try moving on and he goes to someone else. Ladybug starts catching feelings, and you're stuck watching him slowly get pulled back in.
I'd also like to point out that the dynamic of maribug (marinette and ladybug) and adrichat (adrien and chat noir) is written to be basically a reverse sexist trope with the whole hopeless everyman (now everywoman) protagonist who pursues and is rewarded by a perfect woman (now man). Despite his evident flaws Adrien and Chat Noir aren't properly explored and they exist rather as a one-dimensional prize for Maribug. Instead of prince charming and the beautiful, perfect, somewhat orientally fetishised and treated princess, they just switched the genders and went "haha yeah feminism" which is really disempowering. As you said, Adrien is reduced to an object to be desired and fought over much like how pretty leading female characters have been historically treated. Not to mention the fact that Adrien is well a victim of abuse which is also often attributed to the 'princess' trope where men save their flawless but victim gender counterpart in a way that doesn't empower the victim but empowers the protagonist, the man, but well in this case the woman. Sorry that this is kind of hard to articulate since I'm trying to both explain the original trope and the gender reversal but hope people can see where I'm coming from because it really pissed me off with season 5 especially since Adrien wasn't allowed to fight or even hate his manipulator, and Marinette was empowered in fighting what should've been Adrien's fight.
Remember how Astruc said that the reason he removed Adrian from the season 5 finale is so Marinette could have her hashtag girlboss moment and he shows this by...... having her lose to the main villain at the very end and fail her objective of not letting the villain get ahold of the two miraculous
We should not exclude Marinette's condescending behavior towards CN. She does tell him that she doesn't like him in that way, which is understandable, and CN needs to respect that. In other episodes, she kisses him and tells him he is his only partner. When she started developing feelings for CN, he ignores her, and she is the one that gets upset. You cannot expect CN to stop flirting with you when you give him a bunch of different signals. Those are just my thoughts.
I agree with you but I think you should have added how it’s kind of sexist towards men. What I mean is, the show has a way of only making female characters smarter, more powerful, or giving them more screen time at the expense of male characters such as Chat Noir. It also paints one of the alleged main characters in a bad light because he appears useless, stupid, and spineless. The show also paints Gabe as dumb and stupid at times just so Ladybug can win. The fact that it’s always Ladybug that makes the solution to beat the villain and not Chat Noir proves that the show wants us to see ladybug as better and more competent. When it comes to Felix I actually don’t have any complaints about him that fit into this category. But my main point is: Shows shoulder have to put down or dumb down or just completely banish him off screen to make a female character look stronger or smarter.
And what’s inanely ironic about this is that in an attempt to make the girls look smarter, it makes them look like they can only be smart when a male character is dumbed down The misogyny in this show really is rated E for everyone lmao, the guys randomly become stupid for no reason, and the girls can only be smart when that happens - 10/10 writing
Well... at least we have the movie. I'm more excited for the sequel for that than the actual show. Which is sad. Marinette is actually a good and a more relatable character in the movie
It show with other characters as well like Nino and Alya, Tom and Sabine, Audrey, Chloe and André, or even "Gorilla" (seriously he just grunts and isn't even THAT competent tbh), Gabriel and Nathalie, the principal (I know he's technically smart with his own AI but...hoot hoot??), Kim (just dumb honestly) and Alix, etc. Even the villains sometimes (I mean look at Andre the ice cream man or mr pigeon...that's dumb) If you look at the female characters that I mentioned, you'll realize that, while they are displayed as more intelligent and badass, the males in their lives are plain dumb in different ways. The smartest male characters were Felix and Luka (and Max but he's THE nerd character so there's that), and even THAT went downhill
Is miraculous ladybug sexist. Here's my answer. Yes. Thomas wants Marinette be the only male character to show girl power. And to make her look like a strong and powerful girl, he makes Adrien be the unimportant sidekick and push him to the side. First off. Having to make the main boy into a sidekick and more of a side character to make the main girl look more important is fucking stupid. This is terrible when we remember that they're suppose to be yin and yang. Their miraculous are suppose to be the most powerful ones. Yet it's the ladybug miraculous who seems like the most powerful one. Remember. It atleast four different powers. Lucky charm, purifie akumas, fixing damage and making magical charms. Plus probably more. While the cat can just destroy things. Just why. Then the thing with master Fu. He only reveal himself to Adrien because Marinette told him to. Not because he cares about teaching him things. Wow. Fu is fucking biased. I'm just tired that Thomas Asstruc wants people to see the show like "Wow this show has a strong female main character. So cool." But instead people is mad that to make Marinette be the strong female main character, they have to push Adrien into the background. And he gets mad that people don't want Marinette to be the only main character. When we just want her to share the main character spot with Adrien equally. Ecspecialy when we look at the season 5 final. Where Adrien isn't even part of the battle. Against his dad. The movie was more equal between them. There ladybug was equal to Chat Noir as he also was part of the final battle. Anyway. That's my thoughts.
Yeah I feel like the purify akumas power should be a JOINT thing! Like they should only be able to do it together or something, where Cat Noir destroys the impurities and Ladybug keeps the pure parts from being affected and strengthen them. The other stuff makes sense for ladybug since it is the kwami of CREATION but Plagg and Tikki are supposed to be EQUAL yet it always seems that the show is saying one thing and then showing us something else in how Cat Noir is almost always sidelined.
The magic charms aren't a new power there part of her creation power even the miraclous healing is just recreating things and night vision he has enchanted senses he also super stealth Thomas said that and he has catclm yes his catclm is the most useful one but he still has other powers
I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOU!!!! 1) The series should give a better balance to the powers of the protagonists: _ Lady Bug catches the Akumas and Amoks _ Cat Noir uses his power of destruction to purify the Akumas and Amoks _ Both heroes must combine their powers to repair things, a reference to how combining both Miraculus allows a wish to be granted. 2) To me, the power of creation that we see in the series seems exaggerated. It's as if Lady Bug had all the power with her and Cat Noir was the key to absolute power. _I find it illogical how easy Ladybug can build things like Magical Charms. _I hate how the series weakens the power of destruction. This power is very dangerous in evil hands. _I follow this saying: "It is so difficult to build but so easy to destroy". Both Miraculus must follow this logic. PS. My main language is Spanish, use the translator to write this comment. Sorry if there is an error.
It's honestly impressive how the show is able to be sexist towards both genders. On the one hand, you make the main character's only personality traits be that she's nice, she doesn't like the stereotypical mean girls, and she has an obsessive crush over a boy. On top of giving a redemption arc to Gabriel, of all people, whose akumitazations have probably cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands. (Go back and watch the show. There is a surprising amount of terrorism in it.) But you can't give a redemption arc to a simple high-school mean girl with parent issues? Are you kidding me? On the other hand, you have one of the most complex and interesting characters in Adrien, and just choose to push him aside and make him look weak for the sake of girl power. The very idea of the show is imbalanced. Think about it: Cat Noir needs Ladybug. Ladybug doesn't need Cat Noir. Only Ladybug can de-akumatize someone and return everything back to normal. If they were truly going after equality, Cat Noir should be able to de-akumatize people, too. His story is so much more interesting than Ladybug's anyway. She has two loving parents who own a successful business and has a ton of friends at school. Meanwhile, Adrien has a dead mom and an absent father. He was stuck in his house for 14 years. He's rich, sure, but he's miserable since most people just see him as an object. It just feels like such a waste.
Apparently, the writers/ creators of the show (Thomas astruc and Jeremy zag) are at odds over the characters of chloe and zoe. There's some beef going on there as one of them likes chloe and wanted to redeem her but the other guy hates chloe and retconned her chances at redemption by giving queen bee status to zoe, effectively replacing her character with some one perfect. Where chloe hates Marinette, zoe is in love with her Where chloe uses her love for Adrien as an excuse to make her life miserable, zoe uses her love for Marinette to help her on her quest to be with Adrien.
@Sh12pen Yeah, Thomas Astruc hated Chloe and actively tried to retcon Chloe's redemption arc, which I hate. Sure, we can redeem the abusive father/terrorist, but a spoiled 14 year old girl? Seriously? I think someone still hasn't gotten over his high school bullies yet
Pretty sure the cataclysm can stop the akuma too. (Only downside is that the butterfly turns to dust) It's just that he can't fix everything afterwards with the tossing of the item.
“Is Miraculous kind of sexist to anybody else?” What a brave and never before asked question to say (yes, of course, it is misogynist and misandrist at the same time and has been for a while).
Yeah I didn’t mean that the show was trying to be woke, I’m not referring to a muddled and almost meaningless term like that. I was just agreeing with him that it is incredibly unfair to Adrian while also bad to a lot of the female characters too. Like romance can be a strong part of the plot or the main focus but it has to also actually progress without being someone’s entire identity, because that’s not what actual girls/women are like. You don’t have to introduce characters like Zoe either then basically discard her so that she’s in the background even more then a lot of the cast, you don’t have to sideline Nathalie, you don’t have to dump Lila for huge chunks of the show if you are trying to drop hints she is the next main villain (she shouldn’t usurp Gabriel but it was bad to remove her as often as they did then suddenly thrust attention back on her again), etc. And Smarty knows that, he makes a lot of these points regularly, that’s why I find it a very coy and knowing thing to pose the question. Because a large number of people already say the same thing. Just make the video stating that, it feels clickbaity to ask that and pose it at the start of the video. That’s all.
If we’re really going to go the route of the show is sexist, I’d say it’s both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time depending on the roles in the story, which is insane. The story seems to have a bias towards female heroes and male villains, excusing or ignoring any bad things they’ve done. Although, I’d rather just say that the story is written terribly.
chloe's story arc was so, so odd because for a while there, it really seemed like they /wanted/ to redeem chloe by having her help ladybug and learning humility through that. then for some reason they did a total 180 and she's like 5x worse than before? very sad
I completely agree with you, especially with the villain women break down, they REALLY fall into the 'evil step-mother syndrome' which has historically been shown to be extremely harmful to children.
I think one of the worst parts of this topic is in season 4 when Ladynoir was breaking down. In this arc, Ladybug is constantly being portrayed as a villain and Chat Noir as the victim for being sidelined. But the thing is Marinette just became the guardian and has to deal with all these kwamis with superpowers that she doesn't realise Chat Noir is feeling left out. He could've told her but instead was being irresponsible and not going to akuma fights and then giving up his miraculous with no explanation to Ladybug. And then afterwards, she got told off by Plagg for some reason and suffered from sleep deprivation the next day. So she got a consequence for something that isn't her fault but Adrien didn't get any consequence. He got to hang out with Ladybug again as Cat Walker. And then at the end of the season, she loses all the miraculouses while Adrien gets a massive reward to comfort Ladybug at the end of Strike Back. And let's not forget glaciator 2 in season 4 when he basically harassed Ladybug and got no consequence for that either. I mean he did get thrown in the trash and also agreed to stop obsessing over her, but then he just became obsessed again at the end of the episode! I said it was one of the worst because I think Felix's redemption arc was the worst. He literally sexually assualted Ladybug in his debut episode and then when came back he handed the main villain all of the miraculouses and then snapped the whole world out of existence. And then in Pretention he kidnaps Kagami and then tells her that he's been following her everywhere and then still gets to date her at the end of the episode and also is trusted by Ladybug and Chat Noir at the end of the episode and becomes part of their team at the end of the finale. To me it just made no sense because he didn't do ANYTHING to deserve that.
I hate so much how they scrapped Chloe's redemption arc. For ONCE they had managed to right some good fucking character development, and then they threw it all away and introduced Zoe as the replacement "good" Chloe. Zoe is a pointless character. If they'd stuck with Chloe's redemption arc, Chloe would have fulfilled the same role in the story, but been a much more sassy and interesting character. They didn't need Zoe. Hell, even Zoe's introduction was lazy. Some random half-sister coming out of the woodwork? Come on, guys. I'd tell you to do better, but clearly you aren't capable of it.
And they even could have given the Zoe crush on Marinette to Chloe and explained part of why she was harassing Marinette so bad was internalized homophobia or something
MLB characters feel like they're taking early 2000's high school tropes for them. Adrien as the classics hot dude that every girl likes. Chloe the classics mean girl and etc.
And the amount of hostility between the main girls of the cast is incredible, that's a really common trope and even tho marinette does have girl friends, it is pretty obvious how they constantly put girls against each other for the plot
TBH, Chloe character felt so wasted… like i remember her time has Queen Bee and when she started to be “nicer” in season 2 with Zombisou. Even Marinette at the end said that if we are positive and let a good exemple, she’ll be better. I felt that she could have improved as a character and not only be a “stereotypical rich brat” and really be part of the good people. They worked together in sec 3 like it would have been great but for me what make for me realize she will never change is when we see the past of Marinnette being bullied. I felt that it was to drown her character arc just because Thomas Astruc hated her. I love Chloe because she had also a terrible past with her mom and in queen battle we see more development in that and Marinnette being nice. For me Chloe was a wasted character that had potential in having a good character development! We see others have better character arcs while being the worst…
The thing is that Marinette being a stalker technically doesn't really make sense. When Adrien first came to school, Marinette didn't even recognize him even though she had a magazine of him with her. Meaning that it was after the umbrella scene that she somehow managed to make Adrien's life schedule for the next 5-31 years. Which again doesn't make sense because the most you find out about child actors is: Birthday Height Weight Zodiac sign And their physical appearance as well as a brief mention of what movies or shows they've been in. I know because I had a crush on some of the guys when I was their age so like when I was 11 and they were 12. I imagine the same thing would apply to a model... so that means that Gabe just gave the information to the public not caring about how it could put Adrien's safety at risk OR Marinette is good at hacking to know what Adrien's schedule is. Although if memory serves and she DID have the schedule for the next 31 years of his life, I'm inclined to believe that most of the information is probably wrong simply because the events haven't happened yet.
I am still so upset over Astruc's extreme rage when it comes to Chloe, he completely ruined her arc and made her nothing more than ANOTHER stepping stool to make Marinette look like the greatest person ever even though her personality has been becoming worse just as much due to the terrible writing decisions
I honestly one of the reasons why i love felix is that he defeated ladybug Like ladybug just wins every single time by plot armor and making gabe and chat noir look stupid So felix defeating her was really satisfying
I liked him until he and Kagami came together. That ship is a big no for me. Kagami was in love with Adrien the whole time, then this dude shows up who looks EXACTLY like him and she just starts dating him? That’s so incredibly weird
did you even watch the video, that had nothing to do with any of his points also Gabe should look stupid, 1 he is and 2 hes an abusive prick, I want to see him look stupid
There has always been this weird underlying theme in miraculous where the male characters are often portrayed as significantly weaker or ever downright powerless against the female characters, and play off any bad action the males as "not their fault" in order to beat you in over the head with the power gap. I don't know if this is somehow empowering to young females as I am not one, but I feel like this is just a bad message for everyone.
I’ve only really enjoyed the show for what it could have been, rather than what it ended up being. I love the concept of this villain taking advantage of anyone going through a tough time by offering them fitting superpowers. It provides a lot of opportunity to explore emotional themes Time Breaker could have been about regret and consequences. Alix is the only one responsible for her misfortune. She can accept and learn from her mistakes, or she can travel back in time and undo them. Sabrina’s dad believes in the law and thinks nothing was above it, but one day learns that the law is not always that black and white. Roger Cop could have been his denial of the law being imperfect. Kim could have learned through Dark Cupid that being rejected does not make you incapable of love. But nah, all of these episodes were about Chloe being a dick so that each character had an excuse to throw a tantrum with some funny superpower. It’s so shallow
Yeah, Thomas Astruc is part of those kind of men who see themselves as feminist and call everyone who don't like their o so perfect female protagonist sexists, yet they don't understand feminism at all beyond "strong women should be worshiped and elevated above the plebe of men and women alike". Yet they fail so hard at making said female protagonist likeable and worthy of our praise and admiration that it tends to have the opposite effect, not mentioning in his case it's intermingled with extremely mysoginistic tropes.
I think the problem with Miraculous and why its sexist is the fact that its so romance focused. Honestly, romance ruined this show, and it is still ruining it
Just write Female Characters how you write male Characters (Strong,flawed,fun personality,eternal monologue,learns a life lesson and that’s it) It’s not that hard 💀
@@andrewcarlton6196 I have many Male & Enby Ocs and my Female Ocs (I have a lot of them and I think I‘ve done a pretty good job writing them) I’m mostly scared of writing female Character
Allow me to demonstrate the sexism of this show with how the villains are framed: Gabriel/Hawkmoth the big bad, whose sole motivation is bringing his wife back while trying to control his son, and repeatedly attacking innocent people mostly teenagers, and nearly annihilates the world on several occasions. He is portrayed as sympathetic and complicated and is allowed to succeed in bringing his wife back, and is allowed to be seen as a good father even though he neglects his son at best and controls his son at worst. Felix starts off as an antagonist and has an entire episode where he uses a miraculous to imprison the entire world (including innocent people) while defending his grand plan to free the abused rich kids from their terrible parents. He traps and effectively kidnaps the entire world, and then gets redeemed, even though he intentionally did that of his own free will, with no akumatization mind-control excuse. Lila has no sympathetic motivation, she's just a lying sociopath that hates Marinette for seeing through her lies and humiliating her. Chloe's motivation she wants to be powerful, famous, and rich. Chloe had a sympathetic backstory in that her mother was neglectful, was a terrible bully with little moments showing that she could change for the better, only to turn back into the selfish brat she was in season 1, except now she becomes a tyrant taking control of Paris and becomes even more unhinged and awful. She's made into the butt of several dumb blonde jokes, to the point where she has to have the word 'generous' defined for her, and her ability to plan is reduced to that of a toddler, and she's retconned into this irredeemable monster with 'Derision'. She's defeated by forcing her to live with her terrible mother. Nathalie feels like a weird exception to my point. Nathalie harms herself for Gabriel using the broken peacock miraculous, but she's mostly framed as a henchwoman not a villain in her own right. She loses her ability to be a villain thanks to the miraculous only for Gabriel to become more powerful, and yet she's the one who creates the Optigami plan, which unlike the Risk/Strikeback plan didn't involve Marinette being forced to lose because the plot said so. She gets one moment to call out Gabriel for not fixing the miraculous, and claims that she's staying with the Agrestes to defend Adrien but she doesn't really do anything. The male antagonists have their own sympathetic motivations: Hawkmoth wants to save his wife, Felix wants to free sentimonsters, Lila wants to control people because evil, Chloe wants to be rich and powerful because selfish and evil, and Nathalie wants whatever Gabriel wants because servant, she claims it's for Adrien but again it's her wanting what Gabriel wants not her own version of the motivation, or just her own motivation in general. Notice how the male villains have sympathetic moments even after they've done horrible deeds and yet the female villains mostly don't.
Special mention to Luka and Juleka's mom as well. I don't like how they try to make her out to be unresonably upset at Jagged Stone, when the dude literally abandoned his children just because. Like hello???? Why are we pretending that this is okay? Jagged is a shitty dude all things considered and we're just pretending that he's not? Bruh.
13:12 Actually, the writers ARE getting some sick gratification out of destroying Chloe's character. According to this reddit comment by CrystalPokedude (yes I know, reddit, but still), "Put simply, a writer dispute which has never been flat out admitted, but is clear if you actually look at the production process. S1 and 2 are both written together by Thomas and Zag (Jeremy Zag, owner of Zagtoon, the company funding Miraculous.) Zag is on record being very pro-Chloe and supporting her redemption arc, which is why her face is on so much of the marketing, he owns the company. Around the time S3 rolled around, Zag shifted his focus from the show to the Awakening movie which has sat in development limbo for 3 years. "Coincidentally," the second Zag left the project, Thomas went back on Chloe's characterization and turned her evil in a character 180 so quick it's still jarring 3 years removed. I think we can all put two and two together and see what this means. Thomas may not have intended the Chloe redemption arc, but Zag (again, the man funding the project) did. So, the redemption arc got made and Thomas just threw it out because he didn't want it. It was never a red herring, Thomas just likes making people think he's smarter than he really is and is refusing to admit he cut Zag's idea out because he didn't want to redeem Chloe. He thought his idea was better than Zag's, and given the fact we're still arguing about it 3 years later, he was clearly wrong." Also I think I heard from a CZcams video some time ago that they threw it all away because "Chloe reminded one of the writers about his bully in school." It might of been in a CZcams video by Cyrus the Great, but I don't really know. Miraculous Ladybug is arguably getting worse and worse. I couldn't watch it after the second season. Sorry, not sorry.
geez, i don't get what Thomas is trying to do here, empower women, depower them or is just venting his own demons as a messed up guy cuz that's the vibes I am getting
I never thought of the show as sexist but just with piss poor writing, but once you point out the patterns it's hard to argue. I appreciate you shedding light on this topic.
you act like Kagami isn't riddled with sexist writing either (also Kagami legimately never even needed to end up a with a guy, not in the way the show did where everything about her is now centered around a guy to the point she excuses the fact Felix stalked and kidnaps her) You forget the legimately great traits that made Marinette great before her personality was just mainly about Adrien. Marinette is a chaotic girl who is motivated to help her friends even if it means breaking the rules and her being a girl was never treated as a bad thing (which is so important cause the shows I watched growing up demonized the color pink) Edit: I also forgot to say, you act like the sexist writing only applies to Marinette, when that isn't the case whatsoever, when a show is written by misogynistic men, it's not JUST going to be the MC riddled with it, every aspect of the show will be, and that includes Kagami.
@@PancakeRights you basically did when you said Kagami should have been the lead. You think having Kagami being the lead would have changed anything? She’d be even MORE wasted if she was due to the show commenting to not develop anything Hell. You forget WHY Marinette is the MC when you say that. Adrien himself said it best in S2 on why she’s the lead “You’re our every day Ladybug” Marinette was legimately a Great character before S4 for me personally but sooner for a lot I know I said that to say you can’t just apply any idea to something and think it’ll work. Just because you would PREFER if Kagami was the focus, doesn’t mean it would WORK In this case: It definitely would not. She’s not as outgoing as Marinette is to fix a problem for her friends (which is when I personally think Marinette is at her best) She works as a parallel to Marinette in her ideals of love and how they’re both flawed in the perspection of ‘perfection’ Writing is all about knowing what works and what doesn’t and changing that which doesn’t work without sacrificing the important stuff, something MLB fails at, but something that the viewers also don’t consider (for example when people say the fan fiction is better: Of course it’s better. It doesn’t have the limitations the show does. I would argue if you looked hard enough you can find fanfic that’s better than the media based on it. A lot of the people people present for the show don’t take the fact that TV shows are hard to write into consideration when they present something. Like someone suggested here that the show should switch between the protagonist every season which sounds nice on paper But that’s a HORRIBLE idea if you put any thought into it and I wrote why under it if you’re curious) I’m simply pointing out that no, Kagami would not work as the MC because at that point it would be a completely different show because of how focused the show is on Marinette’s growth into becoming more confident via Ladybug in the first seasons
One thing that bothers me in particular - a theme in the show is that Marinette isn’t truly herself as Ladybug, and that Adrian is only truly himself as Cat Noir. This would actually be a really smart concept, except the only difference b/t Marinette and Ladybug is that the “real” Marinette is super clumsy and awkward. But that’s pretty much _just around Adrian._ Her “defining trait” is centered entirely around the male love interest.
One thing I never liked about miraculous is that when ladybug "fixes" everything with her lucky charm she does not only repair (miraculous of creation) things that have been broken, but also destroys stuff that was not there before. I feel like that would be a great moment to show why both miraculous (cat and ladybug) are so important you cant rebuild without destroying something.
The thing about putting down male characters just to elevate the female characters is that it always comes off as “yea women just cant be as strong/smart/powerful as men” like it’s physically impossible to simply let women be powerful when men are around
I used to think like this, then I watched it out of boredom And now I love it for the dramatic train wreck that it is So yeah maybe I have a ‘room temperature IQ’ or whatever the fuck IQ even means anymore lmao but at least I’m having fun and enjoying this shit rather than thinking too much about it Like whatever man it’s a funny little show to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I started watching this when i was 12, now i'm 19. I don't enjoy it, I watch it cus i'm already too deep into it. Every episode I watch makes me want to rip my hair out and pour bleach in my eyes hoping to unsee what i saw. Not only because of how bad the writing is but also because of how cringy it gets. I was hoping since there ware a lot more serious topics going on in comparison to how the show started that it grew with us and would provide us with a good emotional ending seeing how the show progressed I really had hope it was going there. I saw a lot of discourse online as well about how the show grows with us as they encountered some serious topics in them. Turns out i was wrong though... I am extremely disappointed by how it ended and truly hope the next seasons will be better by including things like: Adrien finding out who his dad really is, Adrien being more included in the story, Marinette becoming a better character (without adrien!! she should be abel to be good without needing to date Adrien first). and now also his mother finding out what gabriel did... THEY BETTER MAKE HER REALIZE THAT HER HUSBAND DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO RESPECT HER DYING WISHES. But seeing how the finale ended, i doubt they will ever get into how bad gabriel was and will just treat him like a hero.
Imo she isn’t a good influence on kids, if you want to make a good female character for girls then do it right. Don’t make her a stalker for a boy she likes, don’t make her push down other characters, make her relatable for girls. Mari’s backstory is no excuse for trying to find everything about Adrien and stalk him. Yes what Kim did was bad but that doesn’t mean Mari needs to stalk someone she doesn’t know before falling in love with him, there are other ways she can find stuff out about him. She can ask him questions, ask other people questions that know him, since he’s a model she could research stuff about him.
Nah even what Kim did doesn't make sense because he's afraid of spiders. Honestly, Marinette could have kept some of her questionable behavior towards Adrien but at a much lower level than straight up stealing his phone or going to Shanghai if she had trust issues of those she's interested in romantically. At some point, she learns how it feels to be in the shoes of one who is being stalked and is more open and willing to trust people instead of trying to know every last detail about someone.
It's cool how stories mirror the author. On the surface MLB presents as very pro-women/feminist. But when you go a bit deeper you see in actuality it's basically the opposite. I've also been enjoying a lot of the online discussions/analysis's of the Barbie movie.
All I'm going to say is I love this show but Thomas Austruc (I probably most definitely misspelled it please correct me) writing is awful especially the character development and is something I think holds this show back
Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry is better that Lila and Marionette. I heard France loved Manga and made a lot of stores dedicated to that. So why not stop at a store and buy a copy to learn! C’mon Astruc. Also why would a fashion diva…want to marry a mayor especially one that’s well renowned for her criticism? I’d expect her to go for royalty or President. No lower than a celebrity. Mayor?
Marinette and Adrien are supposed to be heroes. Giving up on the citizens they want to protect is stupid writing. I'd rather see the city turn on them than the other way around, let them be social outcasts, trying to help despite the hate they face because they build each other up
As I said under another comment, I heard that Jeremy zag and Thomas astruc are at odds over chloes character. One of them hates chloe and retconned her redemption arc whereas the other guy likes chloe but now can't do anything because they've replaced her with zoe
@@Sh12pen still, opinions don't excuse bad writing. And making Chloe and Lila irredeemably bad people is bad writing. They made Natalie and Gabe human but the literal children are bad guys? Ain't buying it
@@lola_zo-el I'm not disagreeing with you. Rather, I'm giving you more reasons to add to your argument about the foolish decisions the higher ups are making over there "Imagine letting your personal grudge with a fictional character affect your whole story " basically
Yes I used to love this show! But I’m so sick of Marronette downright STALKING Adrain! She makes the same mistakes over and over again, same with Chloe, any forward momentum towards positive change is immediately revoked. All your other points were great, but once Maronette flew to China under the guise of “getting to know her family” only to stalk Adrain, I couldn’t take it anymore
Its so weird. Everything in the plot revolves around Adrien. But Marinette is the main character. Also I dont know why the show is touted as a feminist grand achievement. Its a magical girl series crossed with a western teen superhero show. So many shows have done this better. I never once saw this show as feminist.
not allowing Adrien to become the protagonist PURELY because of his gender IS SEXISM. Whether it's for or against, that's sexism. If it was for her backstory, personality- sure that's fine. But you're not allowing Adrien to become the main character or even an equal of marinette just because of his gender. And Thomas has the audacity to call US racist when bringing this up.
I'd also say the writing of the show itself is sexist in nature. It's a trend I've noticed with a lot of hated female characters, people dislike them because when they mess up, the narrative doesn't punish and sometimes rewards them. There's ample depictions of this across mlb of Mari doing something wrong and she's never punished for it. That obviously makes a character unlikeable because who wants to see someone constantly get away with being a shitty person when they're Meant to be seen as the good and perfect protagonist. The reason why I think this affects female characters more than male characters is because showrunners and writers (especially men, coughcough Astruc) seem less willing to punish female characters? Perhaps it's rooted in sexism and women as being just too emotional so of course they made an irrational decision (I'm unsure). But either way, its a trend I've noticed in a lot of shows and I think it's pretty sexist in nature
I think it has also a lot to do with the two main women tropes that get carried on from basically forever: the angelic woman and the femme fatale. The first is intended as a being able to purify and elevate men, especially their soulmate, the one that falls for her through the power of pure and true love. The angelic woman is often seen as very close to being divine and even though is not perfect, she's certainly on the road to become it. Traits that usually accompany the angelic woman are innocence, purity of heart, modesty, humility but also bravery, determination and resiliance. It may seem like the angelic woman is an empowering role model, but in reality is usually just a mean for the man that loves her to achieve his goals and get elevated (especially in a spiritual and emotional way) While the femme fatale is quite the opposite: she leads on men and makes them fall for her traps, corrupting, hurting or even killing them. Often mysterious, ambitious, charming, sensual and appealing, is basically your classic Venus flower. She's usually correlated to physicality, sexual appealing, carnal and/or brief term gratifications (all enlightened as negative or ambiguous). I've noticed a lot of men take a lot from those tropes when writing/designing femal heroes and villains and that certainly helps leading towards creating heroines that never get punished because they can't be punished, since almost not "on the same plane as us pitiful mortals" (their actions even if wrong will be revealed to be useful or even "good" for the heroes of the story in the end) and villains that end up bashing the female equivalent representation of having big dreams and working hard in order to achieve them (not prioritizing family and love interest above them)... Same goes for women writing/designing men with the white knight in shining armor prince/beast of the beauty and the beast stereotypes in mind: big YIKES! :/
Let's not forget that Thomas constantly pushed Cat Noir/Adrien out of the story for the sake of propping up Marinette, as if he doesn't know how to write a strong female character without making the male lead "weaker".
True
@starsiadraws
The way I see it making Cat Noir weaker doesn't make Ladybug look stronger, it actually makes Cat Noir a pointless addition.
Think about it, Ladybug is already capable and compitant on her own. She doesn't need him, but he's there being a klutz and occasionally in need of rescue.
@DemonicRemption It's funny really. The character with the most ties to the main villain is the most pushed aside. Like NO ONE in the show has more ties to Hawkmoth then Adrien/Chat Noir himself. And yet they kick him out of the finale.
@@DemonicRemption exactly they are supposed to equal partners. They're always leaving Cat Noir out.
@@DemonicRemptionyeah I don't even know why she was like were are you cat noir? It really disturbed me from the colloter episode ladybug why are you begging him to come? Take advantage of him not wanting to help you you get cat noir free time and you don't need him
Putting down male characters to elevate female characters isn't social justice. That sounds like social vengeance
Which falls within the definition of social justice
@@soul-wh3webut is it the right kind of justice?
That’s the real question
@@thunderbro7218Obviously it's not true justice
Plus it makes women seem weak because it’s like if there’s a man with skill women are nothing
Also condescending
They kinda threw away Marinette's other personality traits in favor of her relationship with Adrien. Like what happened to her being really into fashion and design? Why does she always revert to this clumsy, stuttering idiot when there was more to her character. Give us more reasons to like her, this is why a lot of people prefer Adrien over Mari as a main character, because theres more depth to his character. I blame Thomas for the female character's main focus being romance or related to romance. He refuses to take any criticism constructive or not.
Which is why the movie was far better characterization in 90 minutes than the show could ever be in 7 seasons.
@@JeremyBelpoisXWe can blame Thomas for that.
his twitter is a mess too
@StrawberryStar7 I get that, but it's excessive to the point where it's unnecessary. Even in the movie, she stuttered when asking Adrien out, but it wasn't as bad as in the show.
As for her passion for design, I just thought it would be more prominent since it's one of the things we know she truly enjoys/has a passion for that isn't necessarily Adrien related. I would've thought it would be more important.
@StrawberryStar7 its you!
I’d like to add the constant sidelining or downplaying of Chat Noir. A good feminist story doesn’t have to reduce men just for the woman to appear powerful. It’s actually super reductionist, implying that she wouldn’t be as relatively strong if the men around her were smarter or stronger. It’s a problem a LOT of “girl power” stories fall into and I’m honestly ready for it to go extinct. Write actually strong female characters instead of being lazy
TRUE
The worst thing is that Thomas thinks that Mlb is super feminist for that. As if cat noir having more screentime would make Ladybug any less capable or feminist.
Meh I'd disagree on the whole "a lot of girl power stories fall into that trap" thing. Chat Noir being sidelined is bad because he's supposed to be the second protagonist or at least the deuteroganist, not because every feminist story needs an important male lead or else it's "reductionist".
@@hexellent0324the op never said that an important male lead was necessary they are saying that the sidelining and downplay of chat noir just so Marinette can shine is lazy writing and a reductionist ideology, after all Thomas didn't need to include a male lead(I think he regrets it) if he was just going to make Adrien look like a bumbling idiot who can't swing a stick properly
@@hexellent0324 I wasn’t saying every feminist story needs a prominent male character. I’m saying the story artificially makes Ladybug appear more powerful by nerfing it’s male characters rather than actually writing her well
It's also that male antagonists like Gabriel and Andre end up being treated as more sympathetic than Chloe. I don't even like Chloe, but somehow Astruc's bad writing forces me to defend her.
Probably because even a villain's redemption has the dreaded "double standard" for the female villains.
honestly I wouldn't compare her to Gabriel or Andre but Felix.
Felix did morally REPREHENSABLE shit like stealing the miraculous and putting ALL OF PARIS IN DANGER and then STALKS AND KIDNAPS KAGAMI and is treated as sympathetic??? That his backstory makes it ok?????
And HE gets to be treated like a misunderstood hero? What a JOKE
@@asherville7163 I am happy that someone finally aknowledges the fact that felix did everything that chloe did (and more terrible things). Yet the the writers decided to paint him in a positive and tragic light, give him a fast paced redemption arc and a free girlfriend and all that happened in 3 episodes.
@@user-dk3lg9np6p and i'm happy i checked this! CZcams didn't give me the notification for it.
To me, Chloe and Gabriel aren't comparable because they're drastically different in the way they're written and in character.
Felix, however, IS comparable to Chloe as they're very similar in how they were initially portrayed (Remember: Felix's first appearance had him be the absolute worse similar to Chloe)
Which is furthered by the fact the two are closer in age as well.
Yet it's like night and day, somehow, Felix, who did WORSE things than Chloe, and continued to do worse things in his REDEMPTION episode (seriously why'd they have him stalk and kidnap Kagami???? AND PLAY IT OFF LIKE IT'S OK BECAUSE SHE ACKNOWLEDGED IT?? It really plays into my theory that the reason Marinette is a stalker and Adrien as Chat Noir is a sexist sexual harrasser who has no respect for Ladybug's boundaries is because the writers literally see no problem with it because "well they actually like each other so it's ok!!" (with Chat Noir especially) Like Y I K E S the reason I would never recommend MLB to any child is for that and that alone)
and yet HIS BACKSTORY SOMEHOW EXCUSES THE FACT HE PUT THE ENTIRETY OF PARIS AND THE WORLD AS WE SEE IN S5'S FINALE OK????
I don't even LIKE Chloe, she reminds me WAY too much of my sister whom no matter how many chances I gave her, always threw it back in my face and said I was the problem essentially gaslighting me, but if Felix can somehow be redeemed why isn't that applied to Chloe???
And I get WHY, some people just DON'T change and if you give them the opportunity and chances, they will throw it back in your face and hurt you, but that message wasn't protrayed well in Chloe's case.
And again. If Felix can be redeemed why can't Chloe beyond the writer's misogynistic view of women?)
It’s because he doesn’t like Chloe. Thomas doesn’t like Chloe so therefore NO ONE SHOULD apparently 😒
Miraculous is a show that manages to be sexist on both sides. It's like taking the male hero out to save the princess trope, gender-swaping it, and calling that girlpower. In reality, all of Marinette's passions in life mean nothing in comparison to a boy she likes and Adrien becomes nothing more than a trophy.
Yes, i understand why bad girls like Chloe or Lila see him as prize but main character? It's really good message for girls...
Mari doesnt even love Adrien, she has an obsession, but thats not love. She loves the "perfect angel child" facade he puts up to everyone bc of his dad's abuse, Adrien's true self is more prevalent when hes a superhero bc hes wearing a mask and doesnt need to pretend to be this perfect polite boy, as chat noir he gets to be himself: he can be Witty, sassy, selfish, childish. And funnily enough up until season 5, Mari disliked Adrien as Chat, but in Kuro Neko when he put that facade up again as catwalker, she fell for him instantly.
Mari doesnt like Adrien. She likes the image he is forced to put up bc hes a public figure. If he was an average kid, that didnt have a dad breathing down his neck, Mari wouldnt be in love with him at all
@@Shimospeherno one sees him as an actual person, not even the ppl making the show.
Slightly off topic but it is so obvious to me that the writers realized they totally messed up by making marinette a creepy stalker so they tried to backpedal and justify it by writing the Kim prank backstory in Derision. They were like “there! Now it’s totally fine that marinette is a stalker because of that one little thing that happened in her past that totally doesn’t correlate to becoming obsessive over your crush!”
And it’s so entirely clear that this was punched in last minute too. If you wanna give a character a ptsd traumatic backstory, you hint their trauma and how it affects the story throughout the whole thing and slowly build it up till flash backs. This was entirely out of nowhere and they never ever before hinted at how marinettes behavior connects to any sort of trauma.
Wasnt like the writing team changed a bunch in between? At least it feels like it..
@@kayc4841 exactly that episode is a total retcon.
I think it is unnecessary how they just threw that plot point in there, even if it was a decent episode. But it doesnt matter what happenedto Marinette in the past, because whilst it might explain her behavior, it doesn’t excuse it.
@@kayc4841 Precisely.
I was in a reply chain on Smarty Pants' take on Derision. Going back and forth with this one person who thought that the Creator was giving an "efficient message" on how Chloe was written in Derision.
I countered their statements by telling them that the events shown in the flashback of Derision don't add up from what we've seen from S1 and S2. The latter where Mari/LB actually makes an effort to trust Chloe with something as crucial as the Bee Miraculous. And how Chloe was written wasn't an "efficient" message in Derision. Just another case of Asstruc being a man-child.
Tl;dr; I clearly won the argument in the reply chain.
Overall, the flashback in Derision was just some bull that the writers pulled out of their butts and wanted a good enough excuse to justify Mari's stalking behavior.
It's funny how if something is misandrist, it will usually loop around and end up being misogynist too. If a writer is willing to sacrifice character for a sexist message on one side, then that bigotry is likely to bleed into other parts of the story. Miraculous Ladybug genuinely seems to treat women as superior to men, so it holds girls to a higher unfair standard and isn't as forgiving when they make mistakes. Makes me grateful for shows like Winx Club and Sailor Moon that do girl power right.
Misogyny inevitably leads to misandry and vice versa. People often see them as competing with one another but they're really not. If women are seen as weak then men who act in ways seen as feminine are mocked and cast aside. And as you said, if women are held to higher standards then they won't be forgiven as easily as men. People really need to stop seeing it as men and women competing for rights, that's such a childish way to view things.
EDIT: Can people please stop focusing on the exact words I use to see what I'm actually trying to say here? Maybe some of you don't like the term 'misandry', but we use words to get ideas across, and as long as people can understand the idea I'm trying to get across I don't want to hear about the history of individual words.
@@randomdaydreamer9970 Exactly!
As much as I love Winx Club and how it characterizes the girls, it doesn't do male characters much favors; the love interests lack magical powers (except Nabu) that would allow them to fight off magical beings like witches, warlocks, fairies, and wizards. It doesn't really make sense what they're being trained for if most of the problems in their universe are caused by magic and most of them can't use any. Plus any male characters in the show who can use magic are villains or teachers (who are no match for the villains, anyway). Plus their characterization and backstories are left unexplored, save for a little bit of Riven and Sky.
@@randomdaydreamer9970
What you said makes no sense. Since when Hating Women ( Misogyny ) leads to Hating Men ( Misandry )?
What you described is mockery of a lack masculine traits on a man, not generalized hatred towards men for being men.
You literally proved the main comment.
@@randomdaydreamer9970
The world is fractured, sadly
Both the misogyny and the misandry in the show are s t r o n g, the show's hands are truly rated E for Everyone.
And E for Equality...
misandry?
@@mikaelaxx9602misandry is the term for sexism towards men
E for Equality In Sexism I guess…? 😅
Cool, there you go
As a woman, I couldn’t agree with you more. It isn’t equality if one sex is propped up while simultaneously putting down another. That’s not feminism, and that’s not equality. That’s misangury, hatred of men, can’t remember how to spell it.
"Misandry", but should we really spread þose buzzwords "misandry""misogyny" around when þey only accomplish furþer divide between men & women?
@@Beleidigen-ist-Pflichtyea, your right, maybe sexist or something would be better becs it refers about both
Feminism was never about equality, it was always about having the same rights as men with out having the burden of any of the consequences that right may cone with
@@andrewcarlton6196tell me you dont understand feminism without telling me you dont understand feminism… you can just say you dont like woman dude
@@andrewcarlton6196name confirms "Andrew"
I like felix because HES THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS A BRAIN.
FAX BRO
What about Lyla?
@@DR0208Lila. And technically yes. She does count.
Or at least Felix is the only male character that's allowed to have a brain
He is
A thing to bring up is that while yes Adrian (as Chat) didn't stop asking Ladybug out he did eventually learn it was wrong, with one of the episodes (I don't remember which) he goes around destroying the signs that label him and Ladybug as a couple as he realises that she doesn't want to date him. Then during season 5 when Chat and Mari go on a date he calls the thing off at the end because he doesn't want to abuse the fact he has power over her with his secret identity, can you imagine season 1 Chat doing that? He wouldn't have cared.
So this means that Adrian learns his toxic behaviour is wrong and stops but with Mari the show treats as funny and romantic with it being brought up by her friends constantly. Her backstory doesn't make it better, she should have been told by everyone that it was wrong (like how she told Chat) and learned. plus why didn't she stalk Luka if she refuses to date people unless she knows everything about them?
Dang, you’re right! She just fell for Luka and they were really chill! Funny, her whole backstory was for nothing. That or she’s hypocritical.
Omg that is so trueeee! One thing you could say against this tho is that Mari realized Adrian is a good dude and trusts people more now but she still does stalk Adrian sooo
@@blistineduh3088 exactly Mari didn't learn anything.
If Marinette’s backstory was planned from the start of the show (most likely it wasn’t planned), then the writers been playing Marinette’s trauma for laughs.
And that's why in S3 the romantic go more to Luka and Kagami and i propably would be good if end with them as "ships" for characters. I think without masks was better chemistry with those two.
And it's true, i think Adrien more mature than Mari. It's funny for me for her bicker for chat for his love when she do much worse thing than him.
Oh my goodness, thank you for saying this. The misogyny in this show is so insidious, but if you read into it enough, you can see it. So we’re expected to forgive Andre when he spoiled Chloe beyond reason, and enabled all of her bad behaviour, and is therefore responsible for the monster she became? No! Especially when, in the end, when Chloe goes too far even for him, he abandons her instead of taking responsibility for her actions, y’know, like a parent should.
I think the other problem this show has is that Astruc is desperate for people to like Adrienette, and only Adrienette, and therefore, all of Adrien’s other potential love interests are made out to be monsters to make Marinette look better by comparison (With the exception of Kagami, but that’s only because she is later paired with Felix, and therefore not a threat to Adrienette anymore). It’s sickening to me that a teenage girl who was spoiled by one parent, and neglected by the other is made out to be a monster, meanwhile the parent responsible for enabling her gets a redemption. It’s also sickening to me that Lila was made out to be a monster too, as she started out as a sympathetic villain. Was it wrong for her to lie to Adrien? Yes, but was it right for Marinette to humiliate her in front of him? No. Lila could have been sympathetic, but nope, because she likes Adrien, she is a threat, and therefore an irredeemable monster. You don’t ship Adrienette? Screw you, Marinette is perfect, and the only girl for Adrien. Everyone else can get bent in Asstruc’s eyes
Beautifully point. Any girl PHYSICAL NEAR Adrien is a "Threat" to Marinette's soulmate. Goodness it's so thrashy writing and concept. Still captain of Adrigami row boat here!!
Everyone have a blessed Wednesday August 16, 2023 at 11:20AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
The thing is, the writing has a way of only hyperfocusing on one part of a situation, and every situation is written like that too. Ladybug is being blamed for rejecting Chat Noir, instead of him actively stepping up on the same level of responsibility and leadership as Ladybug (in fighting) while properly talking about how his feelings are hurt. His hurt was never gotten through, and her irritation of having to be grateful for one’s admiration was never solved, despite it being an arc. And that applies to literally so many other situations and facets of the story. That’s why it feels so incomplete in so many ways. It’s like showing what shouldn’t be done while never explaining that it’s wrong in the first place. A problem being part of the original recipe instead of a deviated result.
@@StrawberryStar7 she didn’t have to be nicer, it’s just that there is zero explanation or dynamic representation to why the both of the are opps. There can’t be so much personal hate if the hate isn’t even directed to the person, instead it’s the role of happening to be a love rival. It just doesn’t make sense for someone as calculative as Lila to put in so much effort for an incomplete and circumstantial target of her motives
Your right that Adrians enabling of Chloes behaviour was a problem but don't forget that was only because of his dad's his forced stunned social and emotional development
@@StrawberryStar7I think what made me annoyed at Marinette in that moment was the fact that she abused her powers to tackle a personal issue, Lila didn’t know that Marinette was Ladybug so I’m sure it would’ve been quite humiliating for her to be talked to like that by her hero, especially in front of the boy she likes. I’m not defending her actions ofc but Marinette was way out of line there
Wether this show was sexist or not won't change the fact that it's a shitty show , and I will never forgive them for what they did to Adrien and Chloé
Still sobbing over chloe's redemption arc
I feel the same thing too, also the story is lost and poor written.
Because of all these causes I left the story at season 3 when Thomas kicked chloe's redemption arc like it never happened it was the end of the show for me. Even though i never continued the story my sister mentioned for me the disasters written after that.
@@emphobia2268We wouldn't have to say that if they just kept going on the path that they were on. And it ain't crying it's realizing that a writer squandered a good thing and being pissed about it
Thomas needs to pit on a pair of pants
Oh my God, are you still on about that?
Another reason why the movie did A THOUSAND TIMES BETTER than the actual show!
Except Plagg. Plagg is definitely better in the show. Because the movie version of him is a yikes.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydoll He was basically a magical fart joke.
@@Jellygirl313Yeah. Honestly toilet humor has never made me laugh. Not even as a kid.
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydoll It made me laugh. That and the part where Chloé landed in the trash. Not because I hate her, but more because I like that kind of joke.
@@Jellygirl313Fair enough. 😌
This is literally everything I feel all the time, like COME ON, for someone who likes to preach about how “feminist” this show is and calls people “sexist” for wanting more screen time for Adrien, Astruc does not do a good job at actually writing a feminist narrative
Edit: I’m still so upset about Chloe’s failed redemption because, despite what Astruc tries to claim, she did have a good redemption arc going but they just ruined for literally no reason
all she needed was to feel useful (they said in maladictator) but nope apparently that doesn't exist anymore this is just one of my many issues with the show now.
I believe Asstruc ended that because she, a 14-year-old girl, is "irredeemable" (his word, not mine). I think he thinks that because I heard he based her off a girl who used to bully him
@@NinjaFlibble yeah I know, it’s still pretty upsetting
@@YuriPlisetskyKinnie
Agreed. One of the many reasons I stopped watching the show. (The movie was amazing in comparison to it. Not that the bar was very high.)
𝖨 𝗄𝗇𝗈𝗐 𝗋𝗂𝗀𝗁𝗍，𝗍𝗁𝖾𝗒 𝗐𝖾𝗋𝖾 𝖺𝖼𝗍𝗎𝖺𝗅𝗅𝗒 𝖽𝗈𝗂𝗇𝗀 𝖺 𝗀𝗈𝗈𝖽 𝗃𝗈𝖻 𝗋𝖾𝖽𝖾𝖾𝗆𝗂𝗇𝗀 𝖢𝗁𝗅𝗈𝖾，𝗅𝖾𝗍𝗍𝗂𝗇𝗀 𝗁𝖾𝗋 𝗐𝖺𝗇𝗍 𝗍𝗈 𝖽𝗈 𝖻𝖾𝗍𝗍𝖾𝗋 𝖺𝗇𝖽 𝗉𝗋𝗈𝗏𝖾 𝗍𝗁𝖺𝗍 𝗌𝗁𝖾 𝖼𝗈𝗎𝗅𝖽 𝗁𝗈𝗅𝖽 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝖻𝖾𝖾 𝖬𝗂𝗋𝖺𝖼𝗎𝗅𝗈𝗎𝗌 𝖻𝗎𝗍 𝗍𝗁𝖾𝗒 𝗍𝗁𝗋𝖾𝗐 𝖺𝗅𝗅 𝗈𝖿 𝗍𝗁𝖺𝗍 𝗂𝗇 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝗍𝗋𝖺𝗌𝗁 𝖺𝗇𝖽 𝗆𝖺𝖽𝖾 𝗁𝖾𝗋 𝗅𝗈𝗈𝗄 𝗍𝖾𝗋𝗋𝗂𝖻𝗅𝖾 𝗂𝗇 𝖣𝖾𝗋𝗂𝗌𝗂𝗈𝗇．
𝖠𝗅𝗌𝗈 𝗂𝗍 𝖽𝗈𝖾𝗌𝗇’𝗍 𝗆𝖺𝗄𝖾 𝗌𝖾𝗇𝗌𝖾 𝗁𝗈𝗐 𝖾𝗏𝖾𝗋𝗒𝗈𝗇𝖾 𝖾𝗅𝗌𝖾 𝖼𝗈𝗎𝗅𝖽 𝗁𝖺𝗏𝖾 𝗍𝗁𝖾𝗂𝗋
𝖬𝗂𝗋𝖺𝖼𝗎𝗅𝗈𝗎𝗌𝖾𝗌 𝖻𝗎𝗍 𝖢𝗁𝗅𝗈𝖾 𝖼𝖺𝗇’𝗍．𝖨𝗇 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝗌𝖾𝖺𝗌𝗈𝗇 𝟥 𝖿𝗂𝗇𝖺𝗅𝖾，𝖢𝗁𝗅𝗈𝖾 𝗋𝖾𝗏𝖾𝖺𝗅𝖾𝖽 𝖺𝗅𝗅 𝗈𝖿 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝖬𝗂𝗋𝖺𝖼𝗎𝗅𝗈𝗎𝗌 𝗁𝗈𝗅𝖽𝖾𝗋𝗌 𝗍𝗈 𝖧𝖺𝗐𝗄𝗆𝗈𝗍𝗁 𝖺𝗇𝖽 𝖬𝖺𝗒𝗎𝗋𝖺 𝖻𝗎𝗍 𝖬𝖺𝗋𝗂𝗇𝖾𝗍𝗍𝖾 𝗌𝗍𝗂𝗅𝗅 𝗅𝖾𝗍𝗌 𝗍𝗁𝖾𝗆 𝖼𝗈𝗇𝗍𝗂𝗇𝗎𝖾 𝖻𝖾𝗂𝗇𝗀 𝗁𝖾𝗋𝗈𝖾𝗌．𝖲𝗁𝖾 𝖾𝗏𝖾𝗇 𝗁𝖺𝗌 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝖺𝗎𝖽𝖺𝖼𝗂𝗍𝗒 𝗍𝗈 𝗅𝖾𝗍 𝖠𝗅𝗒𝖺 𝖻𝖾𝖼𝗈𝗆𝖾 𝖺 𝗉𝖾𝗋𝗆𝖺𝗇𝖾𝗇𝗍 𝗁𝗈𝗅𝖽𝖾𝗋，𝗂𝗍’𝗌 𝗅𝗂𝗄𝖾 𝖠𝗌𝗍𝗋𝗎𝖼𝗄 𝖺𝗇𝖽 𝗁𝗂𝗌 𝗍𝖾𝖺𝗆 𝖿𝗈𝗋𝗀𝗈𝗍 𝖺𝖻𝗈𝗎𝗍 𝖾𝗏𝖾𝗋𝗒𝗍𝗁𝗂𝗇𝗀 𝗍𝗁𝖺𝗍 𝗁𝖺𝗉𝗉𝖾𝗇𝖾𝖽 𝖺𝗇𝖽 𝗉𝗎𝗌𝗁𝖾𝖽 𝗂𝗍 𝗍𝗈 𝗍𝗁𝖾 𝗌𝗂𝖽𝖾．
I think the Chloe part is especially concerning given the fact that she's a teenager on top of being a victim. Astruc basically said that a what 14 year old girl? was irredeemable even though she's in the most important years of her development of self and social identity. Everyone has the potential to change at least to SOME extent but ESPECIALLY teenagers, especially teenage girls too who tend to be put through greater social difficulties during their teen years. Her being 'fundamentally bad' is an awful message to children because nobody is completely fundamentally bad.
And he made a joke about her being k!ll3d off…yikes
@@Audreyana I swear he loves protecting marinette at all costs despite her evident flaws and punishing Chloe for literally anything it’s such an awful thing to teach kids
@@Audreyana Excuse me??? He did that?? No way!! I don't like him but that sound too much even for him. Could you tell me more about that?
I'll explain the mess here. Every character in this show except for Marinette is a stand in for a real person Thomas knows. They are either Thomas himself, a rival of Thomas', an ex or someone who rejected him. This is why so many characters are one note meanies or get the shaft in some way.
Marinette isn't a real person stand in, she is his ideal both in terms of the ideal woman and in terms of his own power fantasy of always being the best. He can't seperate himself from the ahow because it's all one big Mary Sue fanfic.
That breaks down with a handful of characters.
There's also the fact he once said he considered Marinette to be a fictional version of a daughter he dreamed of having his ex girlfriend.
How creepy is that?
@@ishashifarHis poor ex😢
WHAT REALLY? Bro😭😭😭
Asstruc is genuenly psychotic, he puts Mari in this pedestal bc she's supposedly the imaginary daughter he wanted to have with his ex, Chloe is treated like absolute shit bc she's based on a bully he had.
Dude doesn't know how to separate fiction from reality and it shows, he's extremely unprofessional and I don't understand how no one fires him and takes his rights as the creator. Bc if I were a producer or a studio, i wouldnt hire this mess of a guy
For a "empowering girl power" cartoon Astruc surly does love to antagonize teenage girls that are not Marinette or her yes-men.
Fact that we got two "unredeemable" teenage girls but main male villain gets redeemed despite years of abusing his son and year of brainwashing and murdering civilians (kids included) that main character thankfully can reverse is absurdly misogynistic.
Not to even mention show creating weird suggestion that women are only worth something when they get a partner. Notice how only single girls Marinette knows are the unredeemable Satan reincarnated who are desperate to get with Adrien who's treated as this weird prize to win while all of her good friends are either in relationships, having a crush or are totally irrelevant on verge of being (i miss my aro icon Alix).
Mf he is disintegrating! What reception is there. He is gonna DIE! Fuck off
Didn't know Alix was aro. That's one good thing about this whole shit soup IG
This person probably meant that it was their own headcanon but yes, aro Alix is awesome.
@bingchungusit doesnt make sense why shes so obsessed with Adrien specifically. If its the money, why not move to any of the other rich kids that we seen in the show? She doesnt even like him, she just think hes prettya nd wants to do it to hurt Mari.
Lila is supposed to be our next big bad but we not only dont know Jack shit about her, shes been around for too long and we still dont know her motivation, shes just there, her lies are silly and don't make sense, theres no reason why shes so hellbent on this whole drama
@@HHeLiBeBCNOF i think it official that Alix is aro
is incredible how the movie fix MOST of this problens.... Gabe being a truly simpatetic villain, Marinette not being a creeper and adrien being the same cinnamon roll as always... how they made that
Adrien actually being a human 🥺
Man was Gabe done well in the movie. I FELT feelings during that ending and he looked badass
@@hirahiro2331 i hate the sentimonster bs
@matheuscoutinho8590 SAME! it's a very dumb plot point. It's just basically "the princess saving the prince" type of trope (at least I think it is.)
Just let him be a human.
@@matheuscoutinho8590sentimonsters have feelings
If you think about it, this show already shows how Ladybug doesn’t actually need Cat Noir or his powers, because she can just break the akumatized object herself and capture the akuma.
Cat Noir is literally just only there to carry on the plot.
Astruc couldn't write a strong female hero so he had to make a male hero useless in comparison. It would be so cool to see them actually work together since their abilities are meant to be completely different (creation and destruction). She can be a main character while he can be an actual help during battles.
FRRRR literally one of the reasons why I preferred the new movie, even if it was FAR from perfect and it had its flaws, it at least made it very obvious that both Ladybug and Cat Noir were only stronger together and only that way would they be able to defeat Hawkmoth. They should've never named the show "Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug AND CATNOIR" bcs Cat Noir was never really an equal partner... even her powers work without Cat Noir's and her powers are more OP than his 💀💀
@@moonchild9425 wait that is the title
@@Shadow30.Let me guess you thought it was miraculous ladybug
@@jzgamingandanimations336 yes
Not just the writers, the fandom too. During the season 3-4 hiatus most people were fine with Luka dating Marinette but hated Kagami because she was getting in the way of Adrienette.
I remember that. Oh sure. Marinette deserves happiness. And Luka. But God fucking forbid Adrien and Kagami get happiness too?! People were so nasty to Adrigami shipper's when they broke up! I'll never forgive the fandom for how they treated Adrien in season 4 as well as Kagami! They both deserve better than the hate they got!
Well- Firstly, I'm NOT that deep into the Miraculous fandom bcs some of those fans/shippers give me the creeps. But I personally liked Lukanette bcs they were overall a good match. I wanted to give Adrigami a chance but when I saw how Kagami told Adrien to "stop acting like a clown" bcs "this isn't the real you", I knew they were just not a good match. Also- how Adrien literally ditched Kagami time and time again just to flirt and be with Ladybug left a bad taste in my mouth. Bcs I never saw Adrien's character as being such an a$$hole to do that, his writing as a character was horrible, and bcs it just made me dislike him as a character. Bcs he was basically hurting Kagami the same way he got hurt by LB, so it made him look like a hypocrite. Not to mention how both ships sunk barely 3 eps into the new season, and the writers just messed it up so much... I guess I personally wanted Adrien to look for someone who loved him for who he really was and I wanted Kagami to find someone else bcs she deserved better. She deserved someone who made her feel like she was special to him. Oof rant over, but yeah- that's basically it. However- I do agree that the hate they got was so unnecessary and downright disturbing when u saw what was being said about them.
True Kagami fan here
There's definitely some misogyny there but i think it's also because Kagami was an actual character with flaws and issues pf her own. Meanwhile Luka had as much character dept as a cardboard cutout. He was a clean slate that people could mould into the perfect boyfriend they felt Marinette deserved.
I can’t even lie Thomas Astruc is really weird and actually insane for portraying Marinette only being able to do well by excluding Chat Noir. The involvement of Adrien toward the finale was also really fueled by the fanbase that Ladybug/Marinette isn’t competent for reasons that wdn’t be brought up if it were Adrien(he is uninvolved, but Marinette was blamed for things like being nervous arnd him and for rejecting Chat Noir). But we just want Adrien to be.. involved? For them to have an equal partake in unfolding the story too.
The season 5 finale rubs me the wrong way. In the climax of the Agreste arc they leave out the most important character to the arc. The son of the main villain. We have a Chat Blanc flashback to show us that "this will happen if he came", but where's the character development. Imagine he was there and found everything out only to resist the Akuma or not even get Akumatized at all. Would be stellar development and show us that from season 3 to now, he has changed.
@@powerjolt7215 Thank goodness I didn't watch that dumb finale. The movie did it way better of Cat vs. Hawkmoth.
@@jonelrobinson4039 Unfortunately Plagg got done dirty in the movie. But yes. Gabriel and Adrien got good closure in the movie. Thank God!
@@powerjolt7215exactly Adrien should've been there its his story and then he wasn't because the show want to show Mari as the powerful one as always
^Reasons why I prefer the movie over the show now... even if I know the movie was FAR from perfect. Also, I didn't watch the finale but apparently, Marinette (as Ladybug) never even told Cat Noir about Hawkmoth??? It just reinforces that he's not really an equal partner. And it rubbed me off the wrong way how Marinette straight up lied to Adrien that his dad was a "hero"... like- the kid was neglected and in other timelines we saw his dad not giving 2 craps about taking advantage of Adrien as Catnoir.. so idk- I hate how Adrien believes this horrible lie bcs he apparently wants to be like him or he will never be like him os smth like that. So I'll keep the movie's ending as canon in my mind... Thank goodness Astruc didn't touch the movie with his "writing"
Here's my take on it. I think they should have made them both the main characters, like seasom one is about Marinette, and season 2 be about Adrian, and so on so on. They could have made this a great show until Tomas ruined it.
fr, maybe not exactly like that, but make episodes feel more dynamic and make it feel more personal. it’s like we are watching a third person play through and only learn about Adrien through Marinette.
@@almost_eden That sounds great for this type of show, I was just thinking about the original Teen Titans, I know it's not the same thing but it would be awesome to see the show be more life like than this.
Exactly my thought and I actually think it would’ve been better if cat noir was the only one who could destroy the akumatized object and Ladybug was the only one who could catch it, then both of them would be important in every battle.
Yes i love that I Dea but I think it would be better if Adrian was the 1st main character so Mari can be the Mc in 4th bc that season is like mostly her being the guardian and going insame
@@lucamagic facts
Im between if its sexist or just wants to make everything about Marinette because shes the MC, due to some key points:
-Marinette stalker behavior towards Adrien and if the roles were reversed, would Adrien be seen as the bad guy for this. Or if any other character did this, they would be seen as bad, but because its Marinette, its seen as romantic.
- The reveals with Alya, Luka and apparently now Kagami, with Marinette now being able to share the burden of being LB with other people, and yet Adrien hasnt shared his identity with anyone. Heck, Luka knows and he never talks to him about it or sends anyone to help him.
- Marinette gets a power-up and a new form for her Miraculous, and yet Adrien doesnt.
-Both Adrien and Marinette have issues and problems, but it seems the show only likes to highlight Marinette's.
Fr
You re right, the series is supposed to be called the adventures of Ladybug AND Chat Noir for something i guess
YESS. there are entire videos that direct the rhetoric of more Chat Noir involvement but serve the reasoning of Marinette being blamed for things that wdnt be stressed if it were Adrien. It’s to the point where Lila (who constantly lies) is being compared to being more badass and confident than Marinette 😨
@@StrawberryStar7 being 2nd isn't an excuse to being throwed aside and die each 2 episodes.
Almost every media about miraculous feature Ladybug (1st, right) AND Cat Noir. Not ladybug then, after a while, cat noir
its explained why Marinette was a stalker in season 5
I mean, I do agree Audrey deserves no redemption. She's a child abuser, literally one of the worst things a human being can do. But then Gabriel should have been treated that same way, dammit! And Andre isn't an innocent angel in his family's situation. He gave Chloe money and privilege and called that as good as raising her, not to mention, as the other adult/parent in that situation, by not stopping Audrey from emotionally abusing Chloe he's an enabler. They should absolutely be faced with some kind of accountability.
Another thing that bugs me is that sending Chloe to live with her abusive mother is treated as come upance. That kid is going to get so traumatized and she will not deserve it.
Exactly the point, all the girls won't/shouldn't get redeemed and are just evil. while the boys are just "soft boys" underneath it and can get redeemed
Yeah, even though Chloe was a brat at the start I’m not letting her live with that evil witch!
Im so sick of seeing most female characters stories surround a male crush. Yes, having crushes of boys is totally normal but you know what isn't? Making it your whole personality trait and throwing away any aspiration or goal you had before in favour of getting with a guy.
Also this is slightly off topic but i feel like this trope can be very alienating to any girl who isn't straight.
im not here for any think just trowing my shit opinion in this comment
more stuff shud make the fml important in a self goal kind of way
Facts
Okay so I don't like to self promote (that's a lie, I have a whole channel for it) but I'm writing a lead female character who is the exact opposite. She doesn't trust men, matter of fact she thinks all men should burn in hell (her backstory includes rape and sexual abuse) but throughout the book she learns how to trust them and slowly opens up to them and accepts their help
This is why I've always thought the hyperfixation on love and romance wasn't a good theme for a kids cartoon. When in the wrong hands, it becomes horribly regressive.
I would like to add that Ladybug does indeed keep leading Chat Noir on, especially during the first three seasons, as she's constantly calling cute nicknames, scratching his chin, giving him kisses, etc. It makes sense Chat Noir would think she's playing hard to get whenever she rejects him.
But of course, as everything that Astruc puts his hands on regarding this show, it goes for way too long, oversteps its boundaries and is repeated for the sake of status quo rather than for narrative reasons, which in turn makes everyone involved seem worse than they're intended to be.
Yea ikr, like I hate when people say the fact that ladybug said no and that cat noir should stop insisting when ladybug does things like this, like seriously
@@nicolas._.2294other thing to remember is France is a very different culture.
@@andrewcarlton6196 I'm sorry, but no matter what the culture is like, any boy would get confused by her behavior. I live in Brazil, we have the same culture as France of kissing on the cheek as a form of greeting, but nothing as flirtatious as what Ladybug does to Chat Noir.
Also, within the narrative, no other girl flirts like that either Adrien or Chat Noir, nor does Marinette show the same behavior she displays towards Chat Noir to any other boy.
She's leading him to flirt with her, then rejecting him whenever he makes an advance.
@@andrewcarlton6196 as a person who has french relations.. in france any type of behaviour like that can signify as romantic..
@@TwilightWolf032 exactly it was so fustrating to me ngl
The last four episodes really was my last straw. The fact that Andre the mayor-who was mentioned by Chloe twice to be corrupt and sabotages his opponents to get what he wants, and other than when she needs him to give her power, Andre isn’t that present in Chloe’s life-and Gabe as Hawkmoth-who gave her superpowers to fuel off of that hatred and power molded my mostly her father which caused her to be more intensely terrible in the later seasons-aka two shameless abusive ADULTS get to be redeemed, but Chloe, the child in all of this and the product of both of their evil, is seen as irredeemable is such a slap in the face.
The writing for this show is a joke.
Thomas really thought that "subverting" the damsel in distress by making Marinette the knight to save Adrien
WHILE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY AGENCY OR KNOWLEDGE was a great way to do female empowerment, what a clown
Guy even tried to do the whole "Don't tell Harry" from Spider-Man
It just doesn’t work. Because Peter Parker cared about Harry and Norman. Marinette does not have that kind of emotional investment of any sort with Gabe. Which is a shame because the story could’ve drifted to where Marinette was designing clothes and Gabe takes notice thinking she’s talented, having a student mentor relationship. But nah, they skip over that and decide to screw it.
@@riotkitty facts 💯
Honestly. In the famous words of Undertale. Thomas asstruc definitely has a stubborn determination soul. Wouldn't stop Flowey from killing it though. Like can we please just leave Thomas asstruc on the street to die?
The writing of this show is a mess.
In early seasons the writers created Marinette as a tropey character without a lot of depth, and Adrien as a well-rounded character with fascinating and personal conflicts with the main antagonist. Instead of developing Marinette with a similar amount of depth, Astruc tried to make the show more female-centric by shoving Adrien as far into the background as possible.
Instead of putting in the work to avoid misogynistic tropes and make Marinette as complex as Adrien, Astruc basically sabotaged his deuteragonist and the ending of his own show. He didn't have to do that... Marinette was getting more focus with the Guardian storyline anyway... 😔
I’ve always had a hard time shipping Marinette and Adrien because of how they act around the other person. Like Marinette is a stalker and Cat noir is just pushing too hard and being creepy as well. That’s not really healthy so I never really wanted it to happen but I guess it’s kinda cute now when they’re actually together but I would’ve preferred if Marinette had a bit more arc and personality and that their romance was build up in a good and healthy way.
True, this is why I kinda wish they stuck to the anime version. It looked like they would have better character development and be a better story overall.
tbh cat noir's behaviour was understandable in my head ig.. like he always thought she was playing hard to get and that's what it looked like to us in the audience. Yes it was too much on his half not getting the signs but honestly ladybug was always super flirtatious w him and then pulling away....i can't imagine him not thinking it was done romantically. Plus yes Mari was super creepy as a stalker ig now we know from that kim epidosde but still i couldn't feel bad for kagami or luka that got in the way of her trying to confess to adrien. OMG I WROTE A WHOLE PARAGRAPH BRUHH I HAVE PENT UP RESENTMENT LMAO
Nah fr fr, Luka and Kagami were done dirty for being pushed into an already cramped love square.
And I totally agree that although Cat Noir was pushy and I can understand her rejection of him. She was also giving mixed signals afterwards. Like, let your yes be yes and no be no pls 😅
I always hated how the girls were always pit against each other. I expected much better from a more modern show.
That is such a good point, comparing the treatment of female villains vs male villains. They completely turned a blind eye to Andre’s role in making Chloe who she is, we don’t ever see Felix even apologize for his inappropriate behavior towards Marinette nor his almost killing people, he’s just given instant redemption. Gabriel, who is so steeped in crime at this point, got a redemption because he does one good deed at the last minute. That’s like a crime boss on death row being freed and getting a statue because he does one good thing at the end. It’s bogus. Meanwhile all the female villains are 100% irredeemable. Yeah that really is a Yikes ! 😅
Girlpower completely ruined adriens character
He should have been in the final but he is written out of the story of his own family just so that marinette shines WTF
That's why I stick to fan fiction, most of the stories on there are underrated.
Yeah unfortunately the fans do it 10x better than the writers themselves.
@@thesuperman4920 Now if only the showrunners hired them. 😈
@@Ninja07Keaton probably wouldn't be much better.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Still considerably better than what we have with the current canon, which is not a high bar to begin with.
I find it funny how they see adults more redeemable than middle schoolers, it should be the other way around tbh
This isn’t a feminist story, though. I hear everyone talking about how strong of a female lead Marinette is. She isn’t strong. If anything, she’s very weak as a lead.
Marinette is an obsessive stalker. She constantly uses her powers for selfish gain, all while never learning her lesson and growing from it. Sure, we’re told she learns her lesson at the end of each episode, but we just repeat the same things over and over again. Marinette’s obsession with Adrien led to catastrophe in the Season 3 Finale, she said she would get better, and then the exact same thing happened in the Season 4 Finale. Marinette then KEPT pining over Adrien.
Rather than let Marinette realize that her unhealthy obsession was unhealthy and that she didn’t deserve Adrien as she was, the show instead had Adrien randomly throw Ladybug aside and fall in love with his stalker within a few episodes of her not doing anything different. It’s pretty ridiculous.
Marinette is romance-obsessed and never learns from her mistakes. I’d hardly call her a strong female lead at all. Heck, she more fits the archetype of Chat Noir, overall.
Agreed. I honestly felt Bunnyx was a way more interesting character even Marinette’s best friend is more interesting (correct me if I’m wrong it’s been years for me)
I once saw a tumblr post about how someone watched miraculous ladybug back when they still identified as a girl and thought that Marinette's behaviour was to be expected for girls and so when they had a crush, they started tracking down all information on the boy. When their parents found out, they repremanded their child for having adopted such stalkerish behaviours as that is not normal
Such behaviour in Marinette being perceived as #hashtag goals and #hashtag girlbossing is dangerous for the young audience that it's being targeted to
It's actually Thomas himself who calls it a feminist cartoon ironically enough
@@simmertoddler1632 Thomas is at war with a fictional 15 year old girl, he has no right to claim an understanding of feminism
thank you for this, people are very quick to point out the inequality in screentime with marinette and adrien when the topic of the show's sexism comes up but nobody talks about how awfully this show treats its female characters. the deadbeat fathers of the show all get their redemption while some little ass 14 year old girls are treated like satan incarnate, it's wild
Miraculous Ladybug's male villains are the epitome of "He was having a bad day you should be nice :(" and he was a mass murderer
Something that I haven't seen people mention... Emilie Agreste story is also pretty sexist? She is a combination of woman in the fridge/dead by childbirth (metaphorically) trope. I remember when everyone thought that the show was going to subvert those tropes and Emilie's backstory was going to show she was more than a plot device, either because she was a past superhero, a supervillain worse than Gabriel... or something else you know?
But nope, she was there to birth Adrien, leave some plot-convenient videos and woobify Gabe 💀
It wouldve been better if they let her move on to Luka realizing she can be with someone who shes comfortable with rather than obsessed
It would have been better to push the relationship with Cat Noir and Marinette as thet had a very healthy relationship arch.
@@andrewcarlton6196 True but alas mari didn't want to stay away from adrien..
I actually have a question with the whole story of this show. If the Ladybug and Cat miraculous, when combined, can give the holder a wish that can rewrite the universe, why would Master Fu even give out the cat miraculous? I mean, Yin Yang and all that, I guess, but it really isn’t needed. The Ladybug miraculous is used to stop akumas, but the cat isn’t. So why wouldn’t he hide the cat away to prevent Hawk Moth from ever getting it? He could have given Adrien any other Miraculous. It just feels so stupid to me.
But Plagg and Adrien are the best together!
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydollwell we’re used to them being together. If he and [instert kwami] we’re together for a long time, we’d say “but they’re awesome together!”
honestly I think Trixx would’ve been a better choice.
@@hirahiro2331i would love seeing a sassy adrien
Yea, never understood that
Given how the writing of Miraculous' story has been developed through the seasons, I simply don't think they had already decided all the other kwamis' designs, superpowers, etc, at first
The "plot" is full of things that don't really make much sense or are far fetched at best, especially when putting everything into a chronological order... At times it seems to have more holes than a Swiss cheese and just recapping it out loud often sounds delirious >~
I remember a CZcamsr who made a video about this, like how Marinette scolded and even hit Adrien when they switched Miraculous becauae she thoughr he wasn't taking his job seriously enough. She was a girl, and she herself found it pretty sexist (plus other aspects of the show).
Which youtuber, i want to know.
@@user-bs2ds9vm2m If I recall correctly, it was Animepuffz, but IDK what happened to her channel. She also ran Pixie Academy, but she hasn't uploaded anything there in a while.
Thomas Astruc literally joked about killing off Chloe in an airplane crash, COME TF ON...
Someone needs to put Thomas asstruc in jail.
really? i though it was a fake account who said that😅
It's actually pretty sad that she is Mary Sue but also at the same time, she is so... shallow? I mean she is good in everything (gaming, fashion, baking, etc.) but all of that skills are there because it's making her closer to Adrien (she played games with him, baked cookies for him, she's into fashion and he's a model). It doesn't feel like she's into things, she just has skills. She mostly talks with her friends about him like there is no topic that teenage girls could be talking about. I would love to see her being a person outside of Adrien. There is nothing wrong with writing a girl that is in love. But she's not in love, she's a creep and these types of behaviours are shown as appropriate since Adrien and Marinette end up together. And every girl that is a threat to her love with Adrien is basically a monster so she's "not that bad".
This show constantly tries too hard to be sailor moon but their girl boss out done Marinette 🤣💀
🎶Fighting evil by moonlight. Winning love by daylight. Never running from a real fight. She is the one named Sailor Moon! 🎶
God, I know right? Give me Usagi's "I am scared, but I'll do it anyone, because someone's gotta!" over Marinette's "Oh look a toilet cover-- AND I KNOW EXACTLY HOW TO USE IT!!" every day... Not to mention the way better written friendships and minor characters and better villains and Usagi being a truly empathetic person and... Damn, I miss Sailor Moon, it was so good!
@@Rossweise Sailor Moon truly inspired so many magical girl shows we have today. But I cannot believe that Miraculous was inspired by Sailor moon when their main character’s personality is only having crush on Adrien.
Growing up I loved Usgai as a main character b/c she’s so relatable a teenager who barely knows anything abt being hero becomes one through her emotional traumas and becomes a stronger person through it inspiring many girls to be confident in themselves.
Miraculous was never a girl power show, it's a Marinette-power show. (I love Marinette, I just hate how the show tries to market it as girl power when it has all these issues)
They did Adrien/Cat Noir so dirty, Ladybug and Cat Noir are clearly not equals.
Yeah the Only that are equal between them are Thier Powers, creation and destruction
Ok with the Ladybug rejecting Chat Noir part, the times where he does try moving on and he goes to someone else.
Ladybug starts catching feelings, and you're stuck watching him slowly get pulled back in.
I'd also like to point out that the dynamic of maribug (marinette and ladybug) and adrichat (adrien and chat noir) is written to be basically a reverse sexist trope with the whole hopeless everyman (now everywoman) protagonist who pursues and is rewarded by a perfect woman (now man). Despite his evident flaws Adrien and Chat Noir aren't properly explored and they exist rather as a one-dimensional prize for Maribug. Instead of prince charming and the beautiful, perfect, somewhat orientally fetishised and treated princess, they just switched the genders and went "haha yeah feminism" which is really disempowering. As you said, Adrien is reduced to an object to be desired and fought over much like how pretty leading female characters have been historically treated. Not to mention the fact that Adrien is well a victim of abuse which is also often attributed to the 'princess' trope where men save their flawless but victim gender counterpart in a way that doesn't empower the victim but empowers the protagonist, the man, but well in this case the woman.
Sorry that this is kind of hard to articulate since I'm trying to both explain the original trope and the gender reversal but hope people can see where I'm coming from because it really pissed me off with season 5 especially since Adrien wasn't allowed to fight or even hate his manipulator, and Marinette was empowered in fighting what should've been Adrien's fight.
Remember how Astruc said that the reason he removed Adrian from the season 5 finale is so Marinette could have her hashtag girlboss moment and he shows this by...... having her lose to the main villain at the very end and fail her objective of not letting the villain get ahold of the two miraculous
Man, this video sums up my entire feelings about all this BS Chloe's dad is the reason for her being the way she is, but HE gets redeemed?!
We should not exclude Marinette's condescending behavior towards CN. She does tell him that she doesn't like him in that way, which is understandable, and CN needs to respect that. In other episodes, she kisses him and tells him he is his only partner. When she started developing feelings for CN, he ignores her, and she is the one that gets upset. You cannot expect CN to stop flirting with you when you give him a bunch of different signals. Those are just my thoughts.
Was there also not a part where she admits if she was not into Adrian she would like CN?
@@andrewcarlton6196she said she might consider it
I agree with you but I think you should have added how it’s kind of sexist towards men. What I mean is, the show has a way of only making female characters smarter, more powerful, or giving them more screen time at the expense of male characters such as Chat Noir. It also paints one of the alleged main characters in a bad light because he appears useless, stupid, and spineless.
The show also paints Gabe as dumb and stupid at times just so Ladybug can win. The fact that it’s always Ladybug that makes the solution to beat the villain and not Chat Noir proves that the show wants us to see ladybug as better and more competent.
When it comes to Felix I actually don’t have any complaints about him that fit into this category.
But my main point is: Shows shoulder have to put down or dumb down or just completely banish him off screen to make a female character look stronger or smarter.
And what’s inanely ironic about this is that in an attempt to make the girls look smarter, it makes them look like they can only be smart when a male character is dumbed down
The misogyny in this show really is rated E for everyone lmao, the guys randomly become stupid for no reason, and the girls can only be smart when that happens - 10/10 writing
Exactly, the show also shows that Ladybug doesn’t really need Cat Noir or his powers because she can just break the akumatized object herself.
Well... at least we have the movie. I'm more excited for the sequel for that than the actual show. Which is sad. Marinette is actually a good and a more relatable character in the movie
It show with other characters as well like Nino and Alya, Tom and Sabine, Audrey, Chloe and André, or even "Gorilla" (seriously he just grunts and isn't even THAT competent tbh), Gabriel and Nathalie, the principal (I know he's technically smart with his own AI but...hoot hoot??), Kim (just dumb honestly) and Alix, etc.
Even the villains sometimes (I mean look at Andre the ice cream man or mr pigeon...that's dumb)
If you look at the female characters that I mentioned, you'll realize that, while they are displayed as more intelligent and badass, the males in their lives are plain dumb in different ways.
The smartest male characters were Felix and Luka (and Max but he's THE nerd character so there's that), and even THAT went downhill
Is miraculous ladybug sexist. Here's my answer. Yes. Thomas wants Marinette be the only male character to show girl power. And to make her look like a strong and powerful girl, he makes Adrien be the unimportant sidekick and push him to the side.
First off. Having to make the main boy into a sidekick and more of a side character to make the main girl look more important is fucking stupid. This is terrible when we remember that they're suppose to be yin and yang. Their miraculous are suppose to be the most powerful ones.
Yet it's the ladybug miraculous who seems like the most powerful one. Remember. It atleast four different powers. Lucky charm, purifie akumas, fixing damage and making magical charms. Plus probably more. While the cat can just destroy things. Just why.
Then the thing with master Fu. He only reveal himself to Adrien because Marinette told him to. Not because he cares about teaching him things. Wow. Fu is fucking biased.
I'm just tired that Thomas Asstruc wants people to see the show like "Wow this show has a strong female main character. So cool." But instead people is mad that to make Marinette be the strong female main character, they have to push Adrien into the background. And he gets mad that people don't want Marinette to be the only main character. When we just want her to share the main character spot with Adrien equally.
Ecspecialy when we look at the season 5 final. Where Adrien isn't even part of the battle. Against his dad.
The movie was more equal between them. There ladybug was equal to Chat Noir as he also was part of the final battle.
Anyway. That's my thoughts.
Yeah I feel like the purify akumas power should be a JOINT thing! Like they should only be able to do it together or something, where Cat Noir destroys the impurities and Ladybug keeps the pure parts from being affected and strengthen them. The other stuff makes sense for ladybug since it is the kwami of CREATION but Plagg and Tikki are supposed to be EQUAL yet it always seems that the show is saying one thing and then showing us something else in how Cat Noir is almost always sidelined.
The magic charms aren't a new power there part of her creation power even the miraclous healing is just recreating things and night vision he has enchanted senses he also super stealth Thomas said that and he has catclm yes his catclm is the most useful one but he still has other powers
I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOU!!!!
1) The series should give a better balance to the powers of the protagonists:
_ Lady Bug catches the Akumas and Amoks
_ Cat Noir uses his power of destruction to purify the Akumas and Amoks
_ Both heroes must combine their powers to repair things, a reference to how combining both Miraculus allows a wish to be granted.
2) To me, the power of creation that we see in the series seems exaggerated. It's as if Lady Bug had all the power with her and Cat Noir was the key to absolute power.
_I find it illogical how easy Ladybug can build things like Magical Charms.
_I hate how the series weakens the power of destruction. This power is very dangerous in evil hands.
_I follow this saying: "It is so difficult to build but so easy to destroy". Both Miraculus must follow this logic.
PS. My main language is Spanish, use the translator to write this comment. Sorry if there is an error.
It's honestly impressive how the show is able to be sexist towards both genders.
On the one hand, you make the main character's only personality traits be that she's nice, she doesn't like the stereotypical mean girls, and she has an obsessive crush over a boy. On top of giving a redemption arc to Gabriel, of all people, whose akumitazations have probably cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands. (Go back and watch the show. There is a surprising amount of terrorism in it.) But you can't give a redemption arc to a simple high-school mean girl with parent issues? Are you kidding me?
On the other hand, you have one of the most complex and interesting characters in Adrien, and just choose to push him aside and make him look weak for the sake of girl power. The very idea of the show is imbalanced. Think about it: Cat Noir needs Ladybug. Ladybug doesn't need Cat Noir. Only Ladybug can de-akumatize someone and return everything back to normal. If they were truly going after equality, Cat Noir should be able to de-akumatize people, too. His story is so much more interesting than Ladybug's anyway. She has two loving parents who own a successful business and has a ton of friends at school. Meanwhile, Adrien has a dead mom and an absent father. He was stuck in his house for 14 years. He's rich, sure, but he's miserable since most people just see him as an object. It just feels like such a waste.
Apparently, the writers/ creators of the show (Thomas astruc and Jeremy zag) are at odds over the characters of chloe and zoe. There's some beef going on there as one of them likes chloe and wanted to redeem her but the other guy hates chloe and retconned her chances at redemption by giving queen bee status to zoe, effectively replacing her character with some one perfect.
Where chloe hates Marinette, zoe is in love with her
Where chloe uses her love for Adrien as an excuse to make her life miserable, zoe uses her love for Marinette to help her on her quest to be with Adrien.
It's very dodgy
@Sh12pen Yeah, Thomas Astruc hated Chloe and actively tried to retcon Chloe's redemption arc, which I hate. Sure, we can redeem the abusive father/terrorist, but a spoiled 14 year old girl? Seriously? I think someone still hasn't gotten over his high school bullies yet
Pretty sure the cataclysm can stop the akuma too. (Only downside is that the butterfly turns to dust) It's just that he can't fix everything afterwards with the tossing of the item.
@@Brook_55 Even then, it's still imbalanced because Cat Noir can't undo any of the damage
“Is Miraculous kind of sexist to anybody else?” What a brave and never before asked question to say (yes, of course, it is misogynist and misandrist at the same time and has been for a while).
Yeah I didn’t mean that the show was trying to be woke, I’m not referring to a muddled and almost meaningless term like that. I was just agreeing with him that it is incredibly unfair to Adrian while also bad to a lot of the female characters too. Like romance can be a strong part of the plot or the main focus but it has to also actually progress without being someone’s entire identity, because that’s not what actual girls/women are like. You don’t have to introduce characters like Zoe either then basically discard her so that she’s in the background even more then a lot of the cast, you don’t have to sideline Nathalie, you don’t have to dump Lila for huge chunks of the show if you are trying to drop hints she is the next main villain (she shouldn’t usurp Gabriel but it was bad to remove her as often as they did then suddenly thrust attention back on her again), etc. And Smarty knows that, he makes a lot of these points regularly, that’s why I find it a very coy and knowing thing to pose the question. Because a large number of people already say the same thing. Just make the video stating that, it feels clickbaity to ask that and pose it at the start of the video. That’s all.
If we’re really going to go the route of the show is sexist, I’d say it’s both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time depending on the roles in the story, which is insane. The story seems to have a bias towards female heroes and male villains, excusing or ignoring any bad things they’ve done. Although, I’d rather just say that the story is written terribly.
chloe's story arc was so, so odd because for a while there, it really seemed like they /wanted/ to redeem chloe by having her help ladybug and learning humility through that. then for some reason they did a total 180 and she's like 5x worse than before? very sad
Also how the show just IGNORES how Nino started accusing his girl of cheating over a MOVIE and justifies it is just.. awful
i've hated nino since that episode
I completely agree with you, especially with the villain women break down, they REALLY fall into the 'evil step-mother syndrome' which has historically been shown to be extremely harmful to children.
I think one of the worst parts of this topic is in season 4 when Ladynoir was breaking down. In this arc, Ladybug is constantly being portrayed as a villain and Chat Noir as the victim for being sidelined. But the thing is Marinette just became the guardian and has to deal with all these kwamis with superpowers that she doesn't realise Chat Noir is feeling left out. He could've told her but instead was being irresponsible and not going to akuma fights and then giving up his miraculous with no explanation to Ladybug. And then afterwards, she got told off by Plagg for some reason and suffered from sleep deprivation the next day. So she got a consequence for something that isn't her fault but Adrien didn't get any consequence. He got to hang out with Ladybug again as Cat Walker. And then at the end of the season, she loses all the miraculouses while Adrien gets a massive reward to comfort Ladybug at the end of Strike Back. And let's not forget glaciator 2 in season 4 when he basically harassed Ladybug and got no consequence for that either. I mean he did get thrown in the trash and also agreed to stop obsessing over her, but then he just became obsessed again at the end of the episode!
I said it was one of the worst because I think Felix's redemption arc was the worst. He literally sexually assualted Ladybug in his debut episode and then when came back he handed the main villain all of the miraculouses and then snapped the whole world out of existence. And then in Pretention he kidnaps Kagami and then tells her that he's been following her everywhere and then still gets to date her at the end of the episode and also is trusted by Ladybug and Chat Noir at the end of the episode and becomes part of their team at the end of the finale. To me it just made no sense because he didn't do ANYTHING to deserve that.
I hate so much how they scrapped Chloe's redemption arc. For ONCE they had managed to right some good fucking character development, and then they threw it all away and introduced Zoe as the replacement "good" Chloe. Zoe is a pointless character. If they'd stuck with Chloe's redemption arc, Chloe would have fulfilled the same role in the story, but been a much more sassy and interesting character. They didn't need Zoe. Hell, even Zoe's introduction was lazy. Some random half-sister coming out of the woodwork? Come on, guys. I'd tell you to do better, but clearly you aren't capable of it.
And they even could have given the Zoe crush on Marinette to Chloe and explained part of why she was harassing Marinette so bad was internalized homophobia or something
The writing for this show is a joke.
MLB characters feel like they're taking early 2000's high school tropes for them. Adrien as the classics hot dude that every girl likes. Chloe the classics mean girl and etc.
And the amount of hostility between the main girls of the cast is incredible, that's a really common trope and even tho marinette does have girl friends, it is pretty obvious how they constantly put girls against each other for the plot
Agreed
Edit Adrian should’ve been the main character and I will die on that hill
THANK YOU
Nah they both should have been the main character, and have better character development. For me miraculous ended after season 2.
@@Imperial304 That late?
@@Ninja07Keaton Yes season 3-4 was not good once so ever in my opinion, season 5 was ok at first, but the ending was just bad all together.
@@Imperial304 No, I meant as "late" as S2.
TBH, Chloe character felt so wasted… like i remember her time has Queen Bee and when she started to be “nicer” in season 2 with Zombisou. Even Marinette at the end said that if we are positive and let a good exemple, she’ll be better. I felt that she could have improved as a character and not only be a “stereotypical rich brat” and really be part of the good people. They worked together in sec 3 like it would have been great but for me what make for me realize she will never change is when we see the past of Marinnette being bullied. I felt that it was to drown her character arc just because Thomas Astruc hated her. I love Chloe because she had also a terrible past with her mom and in queen battle we see more development in that and Marinnette being nice. For me Chloe was a wasted character that had potential in having a good character development! We see others have better character arcs while being the worst…
The thing is that Marinette being a stalker technically doesn't really make sense.
When Adrien first came to school, Marinette didn't even recognize him even though she had a magazine of him with her.
Meaning that it was after the umbrella scene that she somehow managed to make Adrien's life schedule for the next 5-31 years.
Which again doesn't make sense because the most you find out about child actors is:
Birthday
Height
Weight
Zodiac sign
And their physical appearance as well as a brief mention of what movies or shows they've been in.
I know because I had a crush on some of the guys when I was their age so like when I was 11 and they were 12.
I imagine the same thing would apply to a model... so that means that Gabe just gave the information to the public not caring about how it could put Adrien's safety at risk OR Marinette is good at hacking to know what Adrien's schedule is.
Although if memory serves and she DID have the schedule for the next 31 years of his life, I'm inclined to believe that most of the information is probably wrong simply because the events haven't happened yet.
I am still so upset over Astruc's extreme rage when it comes to Chloe, he completely ruined her arc and made her nothing more than ANOTHER stepping stool to make Marinette look like the greatest person ever even though her personality has been becoming worse just as much due to the terrible writing decisions
I honestly one of the reasons why i love felix is that he defeated ladybug
Like ladybug just wins every single time by plot armor and making gabe and chat noir look stupid
So felix defeating her was really satisfying
Same
I liked him until he and Kagami came together. That ship is a big no for me. Kagami was in love with Adrien the whole time, then this dude shows up who looks EXACTLY like him and she just starts dating him? That’s so incredibly weird
did you even watch the video, that had nothing to do with any of his points
also Gabe should look stupid, 1 he is and 2 hes an abusive prick, I want to see him look stupid
@@taki7546felix as a villain>>>>felix as a hero
Felix should have remained a villain he was awesome
@@arash.a2358He's an anti hero actually.
There has always been this weird underlying theme in miraculous where the male characters are often portrayed as significantly weaker or ever downright powerless against the female characters, and play off any bad action the males as "not their fault" in order to beat you in over the head with the power gap. I don't know if this is somehow empowering to young females as I am not one, but I feel like this is just a bad message for everyone.
Nope I've been watching this show since I was 12 and I'm now 15 never once did I feel empowered by the message the show was trying to give
I’ve only really enjoyed the show for what it could have been, rather than what it ended up being. I love the concept of this villain taking advantage of anyone going through a tough time by offering them fitting superpowers. It provides a lot of opportunity to explore emotional themes
Time Breaker could have been about regret and consequences. Alix is the only one responsible for her misfortune. She can accept and learn from her mistakes, or she can travel back in time and undo them.
Sabrina’s dad believes in the law and thinks nothing was above it, but one day learns that the law is not always that black and white. Roger Cop could have been his denial of the law being imperfect.
Kim could have learned through Dark Cupid that being rejected does not make you incapable of love.
But nah, all of these episodes were about Chloe being a dick so that each character had an excuse to throw a tantrum with some funny superpower. It’s so shallow
Yeah, Thomas Astruc is part of those kind of men who see themselves as feminist and call everyone who don't like their o so perfect female protagonist sexists, yet they don't understand feminism at all beyond "strong women should be worshiped and elevated above the plebe of men and women alike". Yet they fail so hard at making said female protagonist likeable and worthy of our praise and admiration that it tends to have the opposite effect, not mentioning in his case it's intermingled with extremely mysoginistic tropes.
I think the problem with Miraculous and why its sexist is the fact that its so romance focused. Honestly, romance ruined this show, and it is still ruining it
Just write Female Characters how you write male Characters (Strong,flawed,fun personality,eternal monologue,learns a life lesson and that’s it) It’s not that hard 💀
No you have to write female character. Simply writing a male character does not work.
Male and female behaviors and tones are very different.
@@andrewcarlton6196 you have a point
@@andrewcarlton6196 I have many Male & Enby Ocs and my Female Ocs (I have a lot of them and I think I‘ve done a pretty good job writing them) I’m mostly scared of writing female Character
Allow me to demonstrate the sexism of this show with how the villains are framed: Gabriel/Hawkmoth the big bad, whose sole motivation is bringing his wife back while trying to control his son, and repeatedly attacking innocent people mostly teenagers, and nearly annihilates the world on several occasions. He is portrayed as sympathetic and complicated and is allowed to succeed in bringing his wife back, and is allowed to be seen as a good father even though he neglects his son at best and controls his son at worst. Felix starts off as an antagonist and has an entire episode where he uses a miraculous to imprison the entire world (including innocent people) while defending his grand plan to free the abused rich kids from their terrible parents. He traps and effectively kidnaps the entire world, and then gets redeemed, even though he intentionally did that of his own free will, with no akumatization mind-control excuse. Lila has no sympathetic motivation, she's just a lying sociopath that hates Marinette for seeing through her lies and humiliating her. Chloe's motivation she wants to be powerful, famous, and rich. Chloe had a sympathetic backstory in that her mother was neglectful, was a terrible bully with little moments showing that she could change for the better, only to turn back into the selfish brat she was in season 1, except now she becomes a tyrant taking control of Paris and becomes even more unhinged and awful. She's made into the butt of several dumb blonde jokes, to the point where she has to have the word 'generous' defined for her, and her ability to plan is reduced to that of a toddler, and she's retconned into this irredeemable monster with 'Derision'. She's defeated by forcing her to live with her terrible mother. Nathalie feels like a weird exception to my point. Nathalie harms herself for Gabriel using the broken peacock miraculous, but she's mostly framed as a henchwoman not a villain in her own right. She loses her ability to be a villain thanks to the miraculous only for Gabriel to become more powerful, and yet she's the one who creates the Optigami plan, which unlike the Risk/Strikeback plan didn't involve Marinette being forced to lose because the plot said so. She gets one moment to call out Gabriel for not fixing the miraculous, and claims that she's staying with the Agrestes to defend Adrien but she doesn't really do anything. The male antagonists have their own sympathetic motivations: Hawkmoth wants to save his wife, Felix wants to free sentimonsters, Lila wants to control people because evil, Chloe wants to be rich and powerful because selfish and evil, and Nathalie wants whatever Gabriel wants because servant, she claims it's for Adrien but again it's her wanting what Gabriel wants not her own version of the motivation, or just her own motivation in general. Notice how the male villains have sympathetic moments even after they've done horrible deeds and yet the female villains mostly don't.
Special mention to Luka and Juleka's mom as well. I don't like how they try to make her out to be unresonably upset at Jagged Stone, when the dude literally abandoned his children just because.
Like hello???? Why are we pretending that this is okay? Jagged is a shitty dude all things considered and we're just pretending that he's not? Bruh.
anarka was done so wrong :/
13:12 Actually, the writers ARE getting some sick gratification out of destroying Chloe's character. According to this reddit comment by CrystalPokedude (yes I know, reddit, but still), "Put simply, a writer dispute which has never been flat out admitted, but is clear if you actually look at the production process.
S1 and 2 are both written together by Thomas and Zag (Jeremy Zag, owner of Zagtoon, the company funding Miraculous.) Zag is on record being very pro-Chloe and supporting her redemption arc, which is why her face is on so much of the marketing, he owns the company.
Around the time S3 rolled around, Zag shifted his focus from the show to the Awakening movie which has sat in development limbo for 3 years.
"Coincidentally," the second Zag left the project, Thomas went back on Chloe's characterization and turned her evil in a character 180 so quick it's still jarring 3 years removed.
I think we can all put two and two together and see what this means.
Thomas may not have intended the Chloe redemption arc, but Zag (again, the man funding the project) did. So, the redemption arc got made and Thomas just threw it out because he didn't want it.
It was never a red herring, Thomas just likes making people think he's smarter than he really is and is refusing to admit he cut Zag's idea out because he didn't want to redeem Chloe. He thought his idea was better than Zag's, and given the fact we're still arguing about it 3 years later, he was clearly wrong."
Also I think I heard from a CZcams video some time ago that they threw it all away because "Chloe reminded one of the writers about his bully in school." It might of been in a CZcams video by Cyrus the Great, but I don't really know.
Miraculous Ladybug is arguably getting worse and worse. I couldn't watch it after the second season. Sorry, not sorry.
geez, i don't get what Thomas is trying to do here, empower women, depower them or is just venting his own demons as a messed up guy cuz that's the vibes I am getting
I never thought of the show as sexist but just with piss poor writing, but once you point out the patterns it's hard to argue. I appreciate you shedding light on this topic.
Completely agree dude! Feminism doesn't mean bad writing and downplaying boys. They could have Kagami as the main and focus on Adrien too.
you act like Kagami isn't riddled with sexist writing either (also Kagami legimately never even needed to end up a with a guy, not in the way the show did where everything about her is now centered around a guy to the point she excuses the fact Felix stalked and kidnaps her)
You forget the legimately great traits that made Marinette great before her personality was just mainly about Adrien.
Marinette is a chaotic girl who is motivated to help her friends even if it means breaking the rules and her being a girl was never treated as a bad thing (which is so important cause the shows I watched growing up demonized the color pink)
Edit: I also forgot to say, you act like the sexist writing only applies to Marinette, when that isn't the case whatsoever, when a show is written by misogynistic men, it's not JUST going to be the MC riddled with it, every aspect of the show will be, and that includes Kagami.
The teachers is teaching
@@asherville7163 I'm not saying that dude
@@PancakeRights you basically did when you said Kagami should have been the lead.
You think having Kagami being the lead would have changed anything?
She’d be even MORE wasted if she was due to the show commenting to not develop anything
Hell. You forget WHY Marinette is the MC when you say that.
Adrien himself said it best in S2 on why she’s the lead
“You’re our every day Ladybug”
Marinette was legimately a Great character before S4 for me personally but sooner for a lot I know
I said that to say you can’t just apply any idea to something and think it’ll work.
Just because you would PREFER if Kagami was the focus, doesn’t mean it would WORK
In this case: It definitely would not.
She’s not as outgoing as Marinette is to fix a problem for her friends (which is when I personally think Marinette is at her best)
She works as a parallel to Marinette in her ideals of love and how they’re both flawed in the perspection of ‘perfection’
Writing is all about knowing what works and what doesn’t and changing that which doesn’t work without sacrificing the important stuff, something MLB fails at, but something that the viewers also don’t consider (for example when people say the fan fiction is better:
Of course it’s better. It doesn’t have the limitations the show does. I would argue if you looked hard enough you can find fanfic that’s better than the media based on it.
A lot of the people people present for the show don’t take the fact that TV shows are hard to write into consideration when they present something.
Like someone suggested here that the show should switch between the protagonist every season which sounds nice on paper
But that’s a HORRIBLE idea if you put any thought into it and I wrote why under it if you’re curious)
I’m simply pointing out that no, Kagami would not work as the MC because at that point it would be a completely different show because of how focused the show is on Marinette’s growth into becoming more confident via Ladybug in the first seasons
@@asherville7163 my opinion your opinion
One thing that bothers me in particular - a theme in the show is that Marinette isn’t truly herself as Ladybug, and that Adrian is only truly himself as Cat Noir. This would actually be a really smart concept, except the only difference b/t Marinette and Ladybug is that the “real” Marinette is super clumsy and awkward. But that’s pretty much _just around Adrian._ Her “defining trait” is centered entirely around the male love interest.
I honestly started hating Marinette in season 3 she was so bloody toxic in that season
Same. Although she was even worse in The New York special.
One thing I never liked about miraculous is that when ladybug "fixes" everything with her lucky charm she does not only repair (miraculous of creation) things that have been broken, but also destroys stuff that was not there before. I feel like that would be a great moment to show why both miraculous (cat and ladybug) are so important you cant rebuild without destroying something.
I dont think we’re supposed to view Gabriel’s “sacrifice” as a character redemption
Honestly, given how they’ve shown Chloe’s treatment of others I’m surprised that no one’s actually tried to kill her
The thing about putting down male characters just to elevate the female characters is that it always comes off as “yea women just cant be as strong/smart/powerful as men” like it’s physically impossible to simply let women be powerful when men are around
Miraculous "enjoyers" have room temperature iq as they "enjoy" this show like bro HOW are u watching this
Nobody hates this show more than the fandom. But I mean, it's been 8 years. A lot of us are too deep into the story to quit now ☠️
@@stxrstruck6755 kinda agree xD
I used to think like this, then I watched it out of boredom
And now I love it for the dramatic train wreck that it is
So yeah maybe I have a ‘room temperature IQ’ or whatever the fuck IQ even means anymore lmao but at least I’m having fun and enjoying this shit rather than thinking too much about it
Like whatever man it’s a funny little show to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I started watching this when i was 12, now i'm 19. I don't enjoy it, I watch it cus i'm already too deep into it. Every episode I watch makes me want to rip my hair out and pour bleach in my eyes hoping to unsee what i saw. Not only because of how bad the writing is but also because of how cringy it gets.
I was hoping since there ware a lot more serious topics going on in comparison to how the show started that it grew with us and would provide us with a good emotional ending seeing how the show progressed I really had hope it was going there. I saw a lot of discourse online as well about how the show grows with us as they encountered some serious topics in them.
Turns out i was wrong though... I am extremely disappointed by how it ended and truly hope the next seasons will be better by including things like: Adrien finding out who his dad really is, Adrien being more included in the story, Marinette becoming a better character (without adrien!! she should be abel to be good without needing to date Adrien first). and now also his mother finding out what gabriel did... THEY BETTER MAKE HER REALIZE THAT HER HUSBAND DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO RESPECT HER DYING WISHES.
But seeing how the finale ended, i doubt they will ever get into how bad gabriel was and will just treat him like a hero.
@@NituSingh-cx5zu kind of odd sentiment considering the video you're watching.
Gotta love when the fans write even better than Thomas himself
Imo she isn’t a good influence on kids, if you want to make a good female character for girls then do it right. Don’t make her a stalker for a boy she likes, don’t make her push down other characters, make her relatable for girls.
Mari’s backstory is no excuse for trying to find everything about Adrien and stalk him. Yes what Kim did was bad but that doesn’t mean Mari needs to stalk someone she doesn’t know before falling in love with him, there are other ways she can find stuff out about him. She can ask him questions, ask other people questions that know him, since he’s a model she could research stuff about him.
Nah even what Kim did doesn't make sense because he's afraid of spiders. Honestly, Marinette could have kept some of her questionable behavior towards Adrien but at a much lower level than straight up stealing his phone or going to Shanghai if she had trust issues of those she's interested in romantically. At some point, she learns how it feels to be in the shoes of one who is being stalked and is more open and willing to trust people instead of trying to know every last detail about someone.
@@randomscb-40charger78 When did he say he was afraid of spiders?
@@d4red3v1l8 It was an earlier episode in like either season one or two. I think it was despair bear or something like that?
Update: It was the episode "Darkblade" where Chloe threatened to reveal his fear of spiders because of the whole class representative election.
It's cool how stories mirror the author. On the surface MLB presents as very pro-women/feminist. But when you go a bit deeper you see in actuality it's basically the opposite.
I've also been enjoying a lot of the online discussions/analysis's of the Barbie movie.
All I'm going to say is I love this show but Thomas Austruc (I probably most definitely misspelled it please correct me) writing is awful especially the character development and is something I think holds this show back
Astruc*
@@RelanTheManthank you
Yeah I hope Jeremy finally does the writing in Season 6. Thomas deserves to be fired after that hot garbage finale
@@taki7546 I haven't seen all of season 5 is it really that bad
@@jeangomez7733Oh boi…. I don’t want to spoil you but the finale, the fcking finale. It‘s… SO bad I‘m still not over it
I’m still pissed with the finale so I’m not really gonna get into todays topic.
valid. This is probably the worst finale I have ever seen.
Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry is better that Lila and Marionette. I heard France loved Manga and made a lot of stores dedicated to that. So why not stop at a store and buy a copy to learn! C’mon Astruc. Also why would a fashion diva…want to marry a mayor especially one that’s well renowned for her criticism? I’d expect her to go for royalty or President. No lower than a celebrity. Mayor?
This is just so true. Marinette giving up on Chloe was the worst show decision ever
Marinette and Adrien are supposed to be heroes. Giving up on the citizens they want to protect is stupid writing. I'd rather see the city turn on them than the other way around, let them be social outcasts, trying to help despite the hate they face because they build each other up
As I said under another comment, I heard that Jeremy zag and Thomas astruc are at odds over chloes character. One of them hates chloe and retconned her redemption arc whereas the other guy likes chloe but now can't do anything because they've replaced her with zoe
@@Sh12pen still, opinions don't excuse bad writing. And making Chloe and Lila irredeemably bad people is bad writing. They made Natalie and Gabe human but the literal children are bad guys? Ain't buying it
@@lola_zo-el I'm not disagreeing with you. Rather, I'm giving you more reasons to add to your argument about the foolish decisions the higher ups are making over there
"Imagine letting your personal grudge with a fictional character affect your whole story " basically
@@Sh12pen true. Especially given they made the characters. Astruc is a bad writer tbh
Yes I used to love this show! But I’m so sick of Marronette downright STALKING Adrain! She makes the same mistakes over and over again, same with Chloe, any forward momentum towards positive change is immediately revoked. All your other points were great, but once Maronette flew to China under the guise of “getting to know her family” only to stalk Adrain, I couldn’t take it anymore
Its so weird. Everything in the plot revolves around Adrien. But Marinette is the main character. Also I dont know why the show is touted as a feminist grand achievement. Its a magical girl series crossed with a western teen superhero show. So many shows have done this better. I never once saw this show as feminist.
not allowing Adrien to become the protagonist PURELY because of his gender IS SEXISM. Whether it's for or against, that's sexism. If it was for her backstory, personality- sure that's fine. But you're not allowing Adrien to become the main character or even an equal of marinette just because of his gender. And Thomas has the audacity to call US racist when bringing this up.
I'd also say the writing of the show itself is sexist in nature. It's a trend I've noticed with a lot of hated female characters, people dislike them because when they mess up, the narrative doesn't punish and sometimes rewards them. There's ample depictions of this across mlb of Mari doing something wrong and she's never punished for it.
That obviously makes a character unlikeable because who wants to see someone constantly get away with being a shitty person when they're Meant to be seen as the good and perfect protagonist. The reason why I think this affects female characters more than male characters is because showrunners and writers (especially men, coughcough Astruc) seem less willing to punish female characters? Perhaps it's rooted in sexism and women as being just too emotional so of course they made an irrational decision (I'm unsure).
But either way, its a trend I've noticed in a lot of shows and I think it's pretty sexist in nature
I think it has also a lot to do with the two main women tropes that get carried on from basically forever: the angelic woman and the femme fatale.
The first is intended as a being able to purify and elevate men, especially their soulmate, the one that falls for her through the power of pure and true love. The angelic woman is often seen as very close to being divine and even though is not perfect, she's certainly on the road to become it. Traits that usually accompany the angelic woman are innocence, purity of heart, modesty, humility but also bravery, determination and resiliance. It may seem like the angelic woman is an empowering role model, but in reality is usually just a mean for the man that loves her to achieve his goals and get elevated (especially in a spiritual and emotional way)
While the femme fatale is quite the opposite: she leads on men and makes them fall for her traps, corrupting, hurting or even killing them. Often mysterious, ambitious, charming, sensual and appealing, is basically your classic Venus flower. She's usually correlated to physicality, sexual appealing, carnal and/or brief term gratifications (all enlightened as negative or ambiguous).
I've noticed a lot of men take a lot from those tropes when writing/designing femal heroes and villains and that certainly helps leading towards creating heroines that never get punished because they can't be punished, since almost not "on the same plane as us pitiful mortals" (their actions even if wrong will be revealed to be useful or even "good" for the heroes of the story in the end) and villains that end up bashing the female equivalent representation of having big dreams and working hard in order to achieve them (not prioritizing family and love interest above them)...
Same goes for women writing/designing men with the white knight in shining armor prince/beast of the beauty and the beast stereotypes in mind: big YIKES! :/