@@psychokuca302 there is a difference between buffing one of 2 roles of a champ and just straight up killing one of the two. Like in what world does removing bonus dmg to monsters buff support rell.
@@psychokuca302 it just feels like "omg nobody plays rell support !! but we designed her for support role !! let's kill her jungle because if people doesn't play her the way we intended, then nobody is gonna play her at all !" that just doesn't make any sense because people are still not gonna play her support everyone knows that
@@WOUFIS They made a mistake in making rell jungle and acknowledged it. If they buff her so that her stats are good,maybe ppl will play her. As far as *I* can see, Rells problem is that she doesn’t deal *enough* dmg as a support, compared to even Leona. But again this is my opinion and you are free to disagree. But what is not my opinion, is that Riot stated why they did this change in patch notes, and it feels justified to me.
I'm still getting over this... Blitz jungle was one of my favourite picks in the game even thought it wasn't realyl that viable. I have no idea why they just removed it like that
If I had a nickel for everytime riot pushed a support into the jungle then pushed them out, i would have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but it's wierd that it happened twice.
@@revi925 Those can all still jungle somewhat effectively, they're just not meta, besides Rell, of course. The other one OP was referring to is Blitzcrank
Rell Jg was just removed not nerf. It legit says it. JG rell is comparable to nunu with her objective secure because Q+Smite did like 2k dmg to monsters
so its a problem that she can Q+E+smite to secure objectives at a comparable level of damage to kha and nunu even though she jungles slower than both of them BY A LONG SHOT. She has one of the slowest single target burn in the game out of any jungler, her only strength is ganking and multiunit jungle camps, most junglers in the game can do a drag/herald, baron by themselves or at least the first 2 in a decent time whereas if rell tries to do them by herself it will take ages and all she can do well is secure it very effectively, it was a totally lazy approach by removing it rather than just finding a better way to make her viable in the jungle without its pro play issues
@@UndeadLromor I mean in many ways she's a better leona. There's good reason why any situation leona would be good in inside pro play you see them pick Rell instead. Rell has a ranged non-committal Q stun vs leona melee Q and her E which forces her to commit into a play. Rell's crash down is a better leona E in every way since it is AOE. Rell's ult is a larger AOE and if it hits it you it can only be cleansed + flashed out of meanwhile leona ult HAS to hit the center for it to even stun.
Removing jungle rell is such a shit thing to do, i hate it when riot goes between 100% and 0% and never anything in between to check if it can be viable and balanced at the same time They did it with jg rell, and they are doing it with senna right now, her minion kill soul droprate is always either .5-2% or 7.5-10% and never anything inbetween, pushing and pulling her from support to carry and back again without letting it settle or checking 4-6% droprate really wish they wouldnt drop extreme buffs / nerfs so often Making stuff broken followed by annihilating it just sucks, for the peoplr who play it and against it
Always been a meme that they ramp up champion usage artificially via absurd buffs when they wanna sell a skin on a (semi)popular champion, and then 2 weeks later when the "flavor of the month" has passed they nerf it back to the ground and repeat the cycle with another popular champion
Thats because their main task is not balance the game: Is the player engagement, they have the ability to balance the entire roster of the game but they decide not to, its better to broke some champs and turbo nerfs others to maintain the cycle and player engagement.
@@creepypato3984 I dont necessarily think its for skins, maybe more to boost engagement like @Rodo079 said, they are using improved numbers / more features to drive people to try out a unpopular, but often very viable, champion though I agree that some of the buffs are really stupid and maybe not so well thought out, and I do dislike the flavor of the month rotation style they do However, although it is annoying it doesn't really matter long term for player rank, players who are better will climb and those who are worse won't so no matter what champ you play, the better player wins out long term
@@Rodo079 I think the idea that riot could just balance the whole roster with the flip of a switch is absurd, and denies the practical realities of the game, unless different skill brackets: pro, high elo, avg player, low elo, etc were separated into different balance patches, which would be a very bad idea, it is impossible to actually perfectly balance the game if only because there is no "perfect" balance a 50% wr champ with 10% play rate is brought down by players with low mastery while a 50% wr champ with 0.01% pickrate has its winrate inflated by the tiny numbers of extremely dedicated high mastery players additionally pro play often requires that champions either be nerfed into the ground or reworked entirely despite being perfectly balanced in solo q, examples being rell, ryze, azir, and zeri all kinda suck in solo q or at least are balanced, while in pro they are broken even with sub 50% wr solo duo I do agree that league could be more balanced and it isnt partially because of riots choices, but a perfectly balanced game would not only be boring, but no one would believe that it was perfectly balanced making the point altogether moot
This reminds me of when Pyke mid was super oppressive and they kept removing his wave clear to the point of his q only hitting 1 target and his e literally not dealing any damage to minions ahahaha.
@candyballlecture627 Yes, but it's not limited to just that. It can also be administered intramuscularly as well as through skin patches. Absorption via mucous membranes is possible. He wasn't wrong. It can be snorted.
She has only one boring combo, requires low economy to be successful, she is a flex pick, AoE CC, and needed 500% bonus dmg to monsters to be successful 😆. In my opinion the last thing alone is enough to remove her from jg, but the other statements justify why the monster damage modifications needed to be removed.
@@Gelert_ 1 boring combo? W into Q+E into R, E+Q into W+R, W+R into E+Q, E into W+R into Q and these are just some to name a few and not even mentioning her W mount up as the ones i mentioned were speaking about W dismount but they can all be pulled off with mount up too if you want more single target focus
@@mrjamezjc9845 All of her other spells are still just a setup for R, no matter what order you press them in, the conclusion is still to jump into enemy and pull them together... The order of the spells doesnt change the combo, hence its still the same. And it is boring. Lol
@@bolche_vic so that just means he plays well...? like, I don't see how him playing well has something to do with the comment talking about the build idea
@@4thsin098 because while he played insanely well, many of his plays were able to happen because of the tank build the enemy team invested too much resource into killing him, but he just didn't die, then he suddenly went in and made a play, leaving no counterplay for the enemy team the build maybe is a little strong but no one realized it was that OP until Chovy did insanely well with it
@@Seto22116 yeah I get that the build is really strong on azir and chovy utilized it very well but what I meant was the initial comment was talking about who thought of this build first, not how it allowed chovy to be comfortable with many positions that would otherwise get him killed I was just confused that the topic went in a different direction, that's all
So you created Rell in support and she was so bad that no one wanted to play her. You reworked her, it doesn't help and people tried to make her AT LEAST useful and starts picking her on other lanes. She got her second chance as a jungler and you JUST DELETED IT? Wow, rito really don't like this champion or they just don't want people do variety of plays
Yeah, second chance for sure, with that 0.5% jungle pickrate in soloque (on last patch, so before the nerfs) vs. Her 3.5% pickrate on supp. She's not the most popular supp, but people played her there a hell of a lot more than jungle.
@@titanofyoutube4834 People didnt play her in jungle because riot is forcing everyone to play carry champs. Rell is utility. As someone who plays poppy jg, rell was a great alternative in the utility role.
@declaringpond2276 Tanks are and always will be less popular, that's not because riot, that's because soloque players don't like having to rely on others for follow up and rell was the most extreme version of that. Sej, poppy, zac, all have some more damage and more agency. Rell without backup is literal dead meat. As a result, her jgl is broken in pro, but can never be good in soloque because soloque players will play around a rell.
@declaringpond2276 well, that the is downright stupid. People don't play utility because of THEIR team, not the enemy team. Playing utility means other have to do the damage and you can't do anything alone. In the chaos of soloque, the only thing you can rely on is yourself, and utility picks are very bad at that.
Aight lets talk about why rell was basically pro play exclusive. It is not, as riot has thought it was, because rell just wasnt a good jungler, or because champs did her role better. It is in fact because riot has pushed for this "every role should carry" mentality with the champs that are played, and because rell can never carry on her own, soloq players dont want to play her. There was 1 very simple thing to reduce her pro play presence, and that was remove the extra q damage to monsters on epic monsters. Instead riot removes the whole champ from a role a lot of people loved/ were fine with, i never saw anyone complain about rell being the most annoying jungler. Now rell is at the point of people never picked in supp, and now having no other role to help boost her pick rate
The reason they did it is the same as what was the case with Blitzcrank. Keeping them as a jungler meant they had to nerf them for their original support playerbase as well to keep the champs balanced. Just look at Rell. Last patch she was already bad in jungle and not great on support either for SoloQ, yet they still would have had to nerf her due to her being so prominent and strong in proplay. So, the mere existance of Rell jungle, meant that the bigger playerbase of Rell support had to continously put up with nerfs to her, just so the smaller jungle Rell playerbase could play their champion. And I think in case of Rell, this is especially unjustified as she's doesn't bring anything new or unique to the jungle role, but is just another engage tank like Seju.
@@lubue5795 Really didnt have to. If the problem was smite combo being so strong, just nerf Q for epic monsters and that was already a big nerf, and didnt affect support at all.
@@santi3256 It's not as simple as that and it's not just one reason either. It's basically everything. Let's say they do what you say and she gets worse at securing and stealing objectives. She still is a low econ jungler, who's very tanky, has a lot of CC can engage and peel well and is a flex for supp and jungle. That's plenty enough for her being a viable flex pick. In fact, we had a very similar issue with Seju a few years back. She was constant pick in proplay and had a 47 or below winrate in soloQ. The reason was that she was very tanky with strong engange and CC even when she had very little gold and xp. And that's fundamentally the issue of Rell. For Seju, they managed to make it better by buffing her scalings so she was more gold depended. But for Rell, that's not a viable approach, as her support role needs to work with low gold and exp. So the only lever they have is making her clear worse and worse, but that also nerfs her already abyssmal soloQ performance. So, there's just no fix here that keeps her viable as a support and jungler while not screwing over her SoloQ playerbase.
@@lubue5795 SoloQ players does not matter, if they dont know how to play the champs correctly when they are strong its their problem not all the people problem. Like they nerf ksante when he was on like 49% winrate, and thats good because players that knew how to play him stomps. Like i have a 73% winrate with him because he was soo busted, low winrate on soloQ generally but monstrous winrate on people who actually know how to play it, u have to nerf it of course. But u cant remove ksante mid for example. And if u think damge reduction to monsters does not affect in pro play u legit have no idea of the game, it would be an extreme nerf. Clearing slower, doing objectives like grubs slower and having worse smite secure could litteraly make her not an option for jungle in pro play, or at least a secondary option.
@@santi3256 @santi3256 Yeah, nerfing her clear would affect proplay. Of course it would. But it would affect SoloQ and all levels of SoloQ, no matter if good or bad, far, far more as SoloQ jungling is inherently more egocentric thus a bad clear, which means worse income and falling behind much quicker, is a bigger nerf. A Rell jungle balance for proplay would be unplayable in SoloQ. Also, SoloQ players simply didn't want to play her in jungle. Her jungle playrate has always been very low, often undercutting Skarner. Pre-rework Skarner. So what's the point in keeping a champ in a certain position when it makes balancing much, much harder, while nobody wants to play it?
I think the game went downhill since RIOT began to actively remove certain playstyle instead of adding counterplay. They continue to make the same mistakes, like releasing Zoe while knowing they don't want a poke meta after their Nidalee and Gragas reworks.
Dota 2, MLBB and Honor of Kings are counter-play philosophy games, while League and WR are out-play philosophy games, I say philosophy cause they have a little bit of the other. The problem with out-play philosophy is when a champ is nerfed or reworked hard enough, they easily become 💩or OP. When some skill is buffed with +69 damage, it easily becomes OP, but when its in Dota 2 it still depends, like if u can BKB out of it or KYS with Blademail. There's also Eon Disk, Euls scepter, Manta to dodge projectiles. In League everything is already predictable when you're in range. It became even more apparent when they removed the QSS interaction with Mord ult and suppress in general.
@@MangaGamified True, but at the same time, they still have some champs that completely counter others. Irelia against Yorick for instance. The problem with RIOT is that they lack consistency in their designs. Their vision for the game change each year. At first, assassins were designed to finish weakened opponents, not one shot them. Tank didn't deal any damage but could disrupt and soak up a lot of damage. Now, it's quite rare for a champion not to be able solo kill their lane opponent. Most archetype that got heavily nerfed or removed from the game came back a few years later as a new champion. They literally told us why they reworked Gragas and Nidalee. It was because artillery mages that removes half your life with one spell from 2 screens away are not healthy for the game. Then several years later, they release Zoe ! It's like they don't remember their own patch notes.
One more reason often overlooked in what made Rell being picked so often: It's a flex pick, something only really accounted for in pro play and not in solo play
And have it end up like other games that have done this where people don't watch pro cause it's too different to the game we play? And what about apiring players climing through masters and grandmasters? They're supposed to be given the finger because the game they want to play is fundamentally different?
Yes exactly! They have different balance adjustments for ARAM, so there is not any reason why they can't have different balance changes for pro play and solo queue. They could even have different balance changes for each division.
Man, I really liked Rell jungle. Why do they keep doing this where they add a fun jungle option for a champ and then just randomly remove it? They did it to Blitz, and now Rell. Ugh
As a very big Rell enjoyer, i have to say that i really like this, Rell wasn't even a support with jungle as an offrole but she had become a jungle with a support offrole, i think support must remain her main role and if Riot wants her tu have an Offrole, i'd personally rather it to be Top lane rather than jungle as i think it fits her playstyle better. (also i preferred her before the rework althought it made her even worse on toplane)
As someone who actually played jg and support Maokai for like 2 years before Riot decided to Maokai a jg and support, I feel Riot just likes to tear our souls.
@@Alasadg yea ok but bro did not say anything? He said he played maokai jg and sup for 2 years and then riot decided maokai a jg and sup? What does that mean?
Support and jungle are two of the most forced roles in the game. Back in season 1 jungle was merely an option and very few champs could even pull it off. The constant need to have flashy, adhd-inducing plays just to keep milking the esports cash cow was and forever will be the reason the game is unbalancable. It's a never ending game of whack-a-mole where everything takes a turn being unbalanced. When the game was about strategy, patience and planning it was much easier to balance accordingly. Power creep, mobility creep and even complexity creep has ireversably prevented the game from being truly balancable and these changes like you see to rell, azir and even ryze will keep happening until the inevitable death of league as we know it.
True, it's a dying game, but some rioters can still get some extra cash from bets by "fixing" matches with buffs/nerfs. Just look up the vietnam scene in esports This is the problem of an out-play focused game instead of counter-play like Dota 2, MLBB and Honor of Kings. That's why many games have rock-paper-scissors or even up to five elements to keep things in balance
Did anyone cover just how bad the Skarner rework was? He went from a fast and fun tank disruptor to a worse version of malphite, the rework is on par with Mordekaiser, they basically deleted a champion and released a new one. He doesn't even feel like jungler any more, he feels like illaoi, completely lost his identity of a chaser, it's like they tried to make a toplaner, idk what were they thinking when they stripped him of all the movement speed buffs he used to have.
more like jayce wintrading there lol. 2 of their team already died and he decided to charge into 5 to try and kill the support ??💀 rakan barely got his spells up, has 2hp, should've gone in in an instant for the play you think?? and after he didn't take the 0.5sec window to go in for a psycho play he has to look out for ksante w cancelling his w aswell.
well it was part of the Rell skill redisign, as she was a considered a very forgetable champ. The problem is no one still played her in jungle in casual and she did become popular in support role, hence they just gutted the jungle role cause if they nerfed jungle the support rells would cath stray bullets
So why buff Sylas to jungle again if he's a mid laner No more off roles, only one For everyone If Rell cant have hers who cares Balance becomes subjective the moment you decide one champ shouldnt be allowed to do the same thing as another champ because what made Rell annoying is now being given to a snowballing carry mage instead of a tank support but funny how its "ok"
@@wastingsun what made rell annoying that usually tanks have safer ganks with the tradeoff of having slower clears. when rell was released she had one of the fastest clear speed of all meta junglers. yes sylas can go jngl off role but he dosent perform any differently from other damage oriented junglers
as a jungler i hate when tanky ones pop up on meta coz i usually default to them and rely on my team mates for damage which is particularly bad in Solo Q unless your fairly high up
I thought jungle Rell was fine even in pro. She wasn't a must-pick champion by any means, but she did what you want a Rell to do while leaving the room to be flexed to either jg or support, and I love champions that can be flexed.
A simple fix for jungle rell is just make it that her bonus damage to camps does less to single targets and give her maybe a dot or ramping attack speed or something to help her clear the single targets quicker without being able to secure them so easily, jungle rell could clear multiunit camps in the blink of an eye with 1/2 items but took FOREVER to kill things like drag/herald and even blue/red and froggy boi took a while for her, they just needed to brainstorm a bit and find a way to make her speed of soloing major objs quicker without making her 1 shot every multiunit camp and also nerf her flat damage with E+Q so she couldnt secure objectives so easily
The problem with Rell jungle was that she needed literally 0 Gold to deal damage, had insane cc from lvl 3 on, has great ganks and a good clear speed. I agree they should never have made her a jungler, because she is nearly impossible to balance for pro and casual play in jungle.
@@santi3256 Her Q damage to monsters is how she clears. You remove that and you might as well just remove the rest of the Jungle Rell buffs because she would be sitting clearing her camps still at 4 minutes.
They mentioned that it was not just pro play but other reasons. Basically the first thing was the toxic patterns in jungle and supp with her objective secures. The second was her popularity and win rate was so niche that even pro players only played her to practice for pro and never picked her otherwise. They would EXCLUSIVELY play in coordinated and not solo queue. The third was it wasn't actually very good in solo queue and polarized Rell in a weird way. The final and main reason was that her strength in the jungle was basically removing pick rate from support and making her unbuffable in support which was the main reason they went forward with the change. It basically was killing the Champ to keep jungle enabled. They also stated they did this so that they can buff Rell Support to acceptable levels and have already been steadily buffing her. They want Rell to be satisfying to the whole player base and specifically Rell Support to feel good. The Champ has been dead due to pro for a while now.
2 things: Reduced damage to monsters &/or a separate esport² version ²which most if not many betters/gamblers and only content creation watcher only watches
I loved to play tank Azir in ARAM about a year ago. It didn't feel strong, but I just wanted to do as much drifts as possible without getting punished, and it was indeed pretty fun!
If a simple % modifier’s number change is too difficult for those people then they should stop doing game balance completely. Because they’re clearly not fit for it.
I love playing champions that are traditionally seen as Supports or supportive in Jungle. Alistar, Shen and Swain are some of my favorite off meta jungle picks, and until they removed it I loved playing Blitzcrank. I never got to play Rell in Jungle and it deeply saddens me. Riot just doesn't like it when Supports start playing other roles for some reason.
Tank Azir has been an open secret in the Azir community for a while now. Last year it was really good when Abyssal Mask gave mana and Seraphs gave health. Liandry's, Seraphs, Frozen Heart, Abyssal Mask, Demonic Embrace.
Well if they remove rell from the jungle, they can also bring rell's old E back. I loved playing against rakan when you can engage into enemy carry and canel rakan's engage with one click.
When tank items work on non-tanks it’s because the items are too strong. This happened in season 5 when assassins like fizz, echo, talon, etc. would go one damage item then full tank because they wouldn’t do damage by building damage so you might as well build tank
Two things I'd like to point out are: 1- Grasp might be bugged on Azir because it has 40% effectiveness on ranged and Soldier activate on-hit effects at 50% value, yet they work as a normal ranged auto attack thus giving Azir more stats/dmg than it should, it may not be a big change but it means that grasp should work at 20% on soldier auto. 2-Grasp Azir had his first appearances with ShowMaker a couple months ago in the LCK
great now i both hate and love the changes due to pro play. On one hand i absolutly hate Azir so any nerf is a welcome one but on the other hand rell jungle was on of my favorites.
I'm not even sure why people are complaining about tank Azir of all things lol, if we see the clip at 0:50 Viper takes almost no damage from Chovy whereas a full damage Azir would've taken away half her hp bar with just that Q auto which imo is much more obnoxious
@@Roflmao6173because instead of being able to one shot azir before he one shots you, you can 5 man focus him and he kills one before you can focus him down and then walks away A *NOT FED* ksante operates the same way and you see people bitching about that
True; most if not many are just betters/gamblers or just content creation watchers, I never play heartstone, Tekken, streetfighter and the recent Lethal Company, and watch them and act like I know💩 just from basic inference and a little bit of looking up.
honestly i rather had Rell changed for Jungle only than what we got. we have plenty of options in the support role that does exactly the same thing Rell does with a bit more consistency and having a good tank option in the jungle is honestly a great change to the one shot assassin junglers we're having for a long time... Leona, Rakan, Nautilus, Maokai... All of them are already great to fit Rell's role in the botlane and those jungle changes made me fall in love to the champion... but yeah, Riot just looks over pro play and will never have their players have fun with wide range of options.
And those changes proofs that Riot needs to make separate game version each for Pro play and normal servers, it would instantly change the game simply because of Proplay could have more variety of champion pull and meta on normal servers could change too. I might know that for Riot it would be maybe not impossible but not worth spending money for it but let's be honest, how many times Riot made us furious with changes for some sort of champions only because proplay ruined those champions.
Hell Tank Diana with Heartsteel, sunfire, and riftmaker. With Conquer first rune and then resolve with overgrowth and shield bash in ARAM is strong. He W's shield scales off of health making her trades very efficient. I was wondering how Tank Diana would do top lane.
I just came back to the game as a main support and the meta feels so weird. I tried playing my old mains Blitzcrank, Thresh and Braum and I feel like they're not even viable anymore. I'm stuck playing Pyke at the moment, even tho I hate assassins.
Imo they could of just removed the extra q dmg to monsters for rell but maybe increase it on e/w so she can't just walk up or flash q smite to secure objectives easily
Corki too. He sucks in normal play but is insane in pro play. Riot needs to do something about these champions because its not fun for them to balance around pro-play.
man.... back then when azir first came out that's the only champ I played. i did well with him. but with nerfs and me not playing much for a long time now(currently playing as a support) I suck playing as azir ;-;
I mean it's the damage on Q + smite which is the issue. Not sure how they would go around keeping her as a jungler while nerfing that because her Q is the only reason she can clear camps at all. Honestly this is for the best because Rell Q + smite made many objective fights not excited because as long as your team was ahead or had the better positioning you would 100% of the time secure the objective because it is un-out-smite-able.
the biggest offender of broken in proplay and shit in soloq is Kalista tbh been that way since she was released, i remember riot planned a mini rework for her along with Azir but only Azir's came through and they never talked about it again
Riot constantly tries to say stuff like they dont balance around pro play or they will try to balance around all tiers then just do stuff like this and show nothing they say can be trusted. Guess we just got to wait for the next Rell rework for her to actually be a champion and not just a poor mans Taric or Leona or Nautilus or well just any actual tank support that can do anything more than her which isn't hard to do.
That's the problem with true coop play vs individualist coop play. The ability to play a champion to its full potential is based on the play of the other champions and players.
craziest nerf? Have you forgotten the first reworked irelia? She got nerfbanged so much, her animation shows it with her walk style. Holding them thighs as tight as possible after those nerfs
It’s crazy that they can just shoot Rell out of the jungle like that, I ONLY played her jungle so they practically just removed a champ from my game and playing her exclusively as support feels so sterile and boring by comparison. I feel like a change to her Q damage to monsters not being a mini Nunu Q would have been fair
Hot take: locking champions to only one role or build is the worst game design choice in terms of diversity of choice, but its the easiest to balance. Its why I roll my eyes every time riot mentions "champion/build diversity" in patch notes, because historically riot has always removed the changes they've made to include diverse gameplay in favor of pro play balace; the only time i can remember that a change was for all levels of play is the removal of mythic items.
@dantevoncrowlley2243 in sponsorship, sure, keeping it alive, but Riot still makes bulk of their money on skin sales, and their esports scene is actually losing them money.
@@enzpogi143 I think some rioters also buff/nerf based on who they lost bets to, I have no proof, but this is the reason why all if not many developer wants their game to be esports, for the money in bets. cause it's easy enough to set up and no face is lost/disgraced like sponsors. Sponsors are just a little insurance for the facilities, etc. Look up the vietnam esport scene just recently
This is how you can understand that the Riot balancing team is doing a bad job. reverting the changes they made ... I wonder if having a "player's vote " for just one balancing change is too much for the game or company ... maybe I am too optimistic about this idea
League should implement champion rotations for competitive, like a banlist of 40 - 70 champions for diversity and give under appreciated champions a place in pro play
I just want Rell to be able to go toplane, like idk make it so her autos do extra damage to minions so that her attack speed doesn't prevent her from csing
Just gonna say it - Rell should have *never been designed as a support champ*. Her whole attitude is literally "I would rather fight by myself because I can only trust myself" because of her Black Rose experiment trauma and then they go and strap her to the side of an ADC because "lmao engage tank = support". It was such a clash of gameplay and story that it was honestly a breath of fresh air seeing her be played in jungle, semi-solo. It made sense. And then they decide to get rid of it because I guess Riot can't even care about their own champion aesthetics anymore. I literally would have rather seen a full rework of Rell to be a new tank jungler and gut her support role rather than this. It just makes sense for her character. Also do it for Nautilus, too, because he was a cool jungler - where he *originally was supposed to be, Riot.*
I dont understand why riot doesnt make different balance changes from proplay and for normal people. A lot of things are being changed for the 0.0000000001% of the people that is proplayers where us plebs who can only watch proplay have to adjust on what the pros complain about or abuse. Sure they cant practice but riot is big enough to figure out a way for pros to practice the different patch from pro vs solo queue
no remove rell jungle is not the right desicion. i accutally hate it if riot trys to force a certain champ away from a new role or playstyle creative players just came up whit. as for azir that tank build is no new innovation its around for a couple of matches now mostly at toplane and aram.
Creative players came up with rell jungle??😂😂 Are you delusional? Riot had to give her nearly +500% dmg against monsters to make her viable in jungle. When a champ needs that much mod to jungle effectively, they should not be a jungler in the first place. Rell jungle was a mistake and prevented rell sup from being buffed. They should have never made her a jungler in the first place.
But nobody played Rell as jg, she was played as support who helped her jg to clear it. Same as blitzcrank did, thats why both of those champs jg buffs got rmeoved..
I strongly believe allowing champions 2 roles is very healthy for gameplay, and allowing Rell to comfortably play Support or Jungle was good for the game. Imagine you want supp and have backup roll Jungle, no problem you still can play your champion! With the role backups being required now, it's so important to me to play champions I know work in more than one role. For this reason, I think destroying Jungle Rell only hurt her as a champion and the game as a whole. Sure it's a pro-play game, but at the end of he day it's a game. Riot forgets this sometimes.
I still think they should make a ban list for proplay, like make a list of champion that cannot be both balanced for pro play and normal play. It would make balancing easier AND would make pro play more entertaining by letting free slot for other champion to be played instead of always the same one we always see
I kind of get why they would make a change like this to refresh the meta in pro play. Teams won't be able to flex pick that character now which makes drafts less creative at the same time. Feel like they could have made a few minor adjustments instead of gutting this character entirely from a role. It's just lazy. And what about the other 15+ characters that have a 50% presence in pro games in the last 2 seasons that they haven't adjusted (They touched 1 of them recently in the last 3 months worth of patches and it hasnt affected its PB rate).
Alright, now when is Leona's jungle arc? Nah but actually as someone who plays toplane Leona sometimes, I think it'd be insanely cool if they just reverted a really old change they made to here where they made it so only allies could proc her passive. I really like the idea of solo lane Leona, and think the only change they'd have to make for it to be viable would be to allow her to use her own passive.
As for azir this is why carries shouldnt have high base damage and as for rell - she got changed not because rell jungle was too strong but because rell SUPPORT could basically double jungle with her jungler and clear the whole map in negative time + taking dragons barons heralds and grubs. U cant just give supports "you can also delete jungle" treatment.
To make azir a staple of pro play, they have to make his ult an ascension ult. Increase range on abilities, and attack speed. Right now, he cant ever be strong to play because of his ult.
every rell jungle i had in emerald elo thought they were the new upcomming jungle star picked rell jungle and completley ruined the game for the team they were in
I remember when rell was released i was like "This champ is a jungler" and and played some games of her in the jg, but i believe she didnt have bonus dmg to monsters so it was pretty shit, but i was still certain that she was a jungler
And at the same time they are forgetting about champs like Heimerdinger or Mordekaiser who not struggle alot currently, but are actually pretty much useless in higher elos and espc. in pro play. Even BeryL, who played him lots in worlds 2022, says he is pretty useless nowadays, as his basic attack dmg, attack speed, projectile speed, and the dmg scaling on his abilities are bad, on top the champs he synergies a lot with aren't in a great or decent spot either. And Mordekaiser ... well to explain why he is useless in high elo and pro games could fill a book.
games where pro play is so relevant turn competitive quick, and it's difficult to be a casual player in a game where balancing is built around the 0,01% of the playerbase.
Chovy carrying an entire series (+Canyon objective steals) on Tank Azir, in LCK playoffs, against a top team, is one of the craziest things I've seen in pro play. Chovy always impresses me but this is WILD
I just don't understand why they went scorched earth with jg Rell. They could have capped the damage she dealt to camps to weaken her clear. Instead they just remove it all together while failing to address the actual problem - that low income, high impact junglers are *the* meta in pro play and even in the higher levels of solo queue.
I think Riot is just slowly killing it's player base by balacing the game around pro-play. It's unfair how champs like Azir, Ryze, Zeri and Aphelios (before crit itens buffs) are just OPENLY made weak so they don't see the sun shining in the competitive play
imagine riot just gets sick of balancing pro play & all ranks of soloq at the same time and just decides to make champs like azir and zed only playable in ranked if ur above some rank 😭
I've been playing on Azir with such a build for more than a month now and it's not even close to as strong as on the pro scene. In Soloq, you need to make damage and win by yourself, not wait for the team. And now, Azir is one of the worst champions in the middle line, with any runes and items. It is a pity that the balance in the game is for 0.00001% of the players from the pro scene.
But you cant really compare those cases. Rell was support and got changed so she can also play jungle and now they just reverted that change, while azir is just hard champ and his winrate master+ isnt that bad
Riot doesn't want primary supports to be useful in other roles, because they are usually focused on slowing down the game, while riot loves to speed up the game with flashes, dashes and other nonsense and selling it as "skill expression" when even pros can't fully keep up with champs reliably. That's also why "non primary" supports are often getting into the role.
That nerf to Azir does exactly nothing to change him. If anything, people will go tank Azir even more than before, because you lose even more tankiness. You only lose 8 damage on maxed W, thats barely anything for the tankiness you gain. Losing HP Regen makes it even better to go grasp and tank, because you are less relient on it. I don't understand Riot. In the past they buffed scalings and nerfed base-damage aswell as interactions with tank items. Now they nerf base-tankiness? And you get no compensation? Why go damage then?
Rell is not the first champ who got completly remove for a role. We have Sylas jungle back in the day and Riot destroy him because he was to strong (like Rell now). But for no reason, they buff Sylas jungle on the last patch and they want to buff him again in the next one ! Sometimes I really don't understand Riot decision but I think with this, we can expect Rell jungle back in 2 years.
I generally loathe when developers cater to the 0.0001% of players, and not the millions of casuals and average consumers. You know, the people who actually make money for the game.
They should just make flex the default ranked queue so the fan experience gets closer to pro. Imagine everytime you went to play pick up basketball ball, you had to play with 4 strangers everytime, of course the game is going to look different
I will never be a fan of pro play, it used to be something that I was like "maybe I'll listen to it while I clean" or something but now I can't even listen to it cause every time I hear "WOAH AND ____ PULLS AN AMAZING PLAY" I get spoilers on which champ riot is gonna nerf next patch cause they have no idea what's going on anywhere outside of tournaments
I think this is sooo bad, how can they have one year of rell jungle which is turbo OP in PRO play, with the fastest clear and you basically cannot be outsmited and suddendly say, not anymore and just remove her completly from that role and not just nerf the modifiers from 300% to 200% or 150%. And why do they do it right now? All playoffs are held on patch 14.6, so rell is still good and MSI is going to be on patch 14.8 where rell will never be picked anymore (because she was only picked for support as flex to get a better jungle matchup). Maybe they wanted a new MSI meta to have the same meta as Worlds, but then again why not nerf her earlier to get this meta in the regional seasons aswell.
would be cool if different balance changes were made seperately just for pro play, but then again riot games is a small indie dev company with 200 years of experience
Riot: no one likes Rell lets make her a jungler
Also Riot: no one likes Rell lets nerf her
They said in the same patch note that they did it,so that they can buff support rell. Please read patch notes.
@@psychokuca302 there is a difference between buffing one of 2 roles of a champ and just straight up killing one of the two. Like in what world does removing bonus dmg to monsters buff support rell.
@@psychokuca302 it just feels like "omg nobody plays rell support !! but we designed her for support role !! let's kill her jungle because if people doesn't play her the way we intended, then nobody is gonna play her at all !" that just doesn't make any sense because people are still not gonna play her support everyone knows that
@@WOUFIS They made a mistake in making rell jungle and acknowledged it. If they buff her so that her stats are good,maybe ppl will play her. As far as *I* can see, Rells problem is that she doesn’t deal *enough* dmg as a support, compared to even Leona. But again this is my opinion and you are free to disagree. But what is not my opinion, is that Riot stated why they did this change in patch notes, and it feels justified to me.
@@psychokuca302 ah yes the 2 Mr at lvl 18 support buff
They did this to Blitzcrank as well, not for Pro Play, but just because Riot Game.
Yeah I was really sad about it...
I legit picked jungle blitzcrank with pta a month ago cause i played it when it existed and didn't realise they removed it ; (
I'm still getting over this... Blitz jungle was one of my favourite picks in the game even thought it wasn't realyl that viable. I have no idea why they just removed it like that
@@mightypancake8949 all LoL dev teams suck (except audio team)
tbf, the jungle blitz buffs made lane blitz better while the jungle ver was still shit. but riot shouldve just reworked the champ at this point
Tank azir was first popularized by Showmaker and he had a 100% win rate on it
It was originally a random korean soloq one trick, showmaker didn't come up with it either
@@nemanjak50 That guy didn't say that he came up with it, he just said that showmaker popularized it
@@nemanjak50 His name is Elderwood :)
@@nemanjak50 it wasn't a Korean OTP. Believe it or not elderwood took inspiration from NA shit theory build.
Elderwood? I was certain Shuvi279error was the theory crafter for the build. He's been building it since basically day one of the item rework
If I had a nickel for everytime riot pushed a support into the jungle then pushed them out, i would have 2 nickels, which isn't a lot but it's wierd that it happened twice.
Morgana, brand, rell, zyra, nautilus… probably more but those are the ones i can think of right now
Just two? I'm pretty sure it was at least 4 times
brand and zyra and velkoz and lux and Morgana are midlanders! stop this Egirl propaganda
and xerath and sona and.. man the list is insanely long, actually i can keep going!
@@revi925 Those can all still jungle somewhat effectively, they're just not meta, besides Rell, of course. The other one OP was referring to is Blitzcrank
Rell Jg was just removed not nerf. It legit says it. JG rell is comparable to nunu with her objective secure because Q+Smite did like 2k dmg to monsters
exactly, people playing her jungler are braindead the win rate says literally nothing, rell support is still good
@@Akynam Rell support isn't really that good tbh, everything she does someone does it exactly the same but with no drawbacks or better.
@@Akynam yea they cant read patch notes ig lol
so its a problem that she can Q+E+smite to secure objectives at a comparable level of damage to kha and nunu even though she jungles slower than both of them BY A LONG SHOT. She has one of the slowest single target burn in the game out of any jungler, her only strength is ganking and multiunit jungle camps, most junglers in the game can do a drag/herald, baron by themselves or at least the first 2 in a decent time whereas if rell tries to do them by herself it will take ages and all she can do well is secure it very effectively, it was a totally lazy approach by removing it rather than just finding a better way to make her viable in the jungle without its pro play issues
@@UndeadLromor I mean in many ways she's a better leona. There's good reason why any situation leona would be good in inside pro play you see them pick Rell instead. Rell has a ranged non-committal Q stun vs leona melee Q and her E which forces her to commit into a play. Rell's crash down is a better leona E in every way since it is AOE. Rell's ult is a larger AOE and if it hits it you it can only be cleansed + flashed out of meanwhile leona ult HAS to hit the center for it to even stun.
Removing jungle rell is such a shit thing to do, i hate it when riot goes between 100% and 0% and never anything in between to check if it can be viable and balanced at the same time
They did it with jg rell, and they are doing it with senna right now, her minion kill soul droprate is always either .5-2% or 7.5-10% and never anything inbetween, pushing and pulling her from support to carry and back again without letting it settle or checking 4-6% droprate really wish they wouldnt drop extreme buffs / nerfs so often
Making stuff broken followed by annihilating it just sucks, for the peoplr who play it and against it
You either die a solo q hero or live long enough to be a pro play power pick
Always been a meme that they ramp up champion usage artificially via absurd buffs when they wanna sell a skin on a (semi)popular champion, and then 2 weeks later when the "flavor of the month" has passed they nerf it back to the ground and repeat the cycle with another popular champion
Thats because their main task is not balance the game: Is the player engagement, they have the ability to balance the entire roster of the game but they decide not to, its better to broke some champs and turbo nerfs others to maintain the cycle and player engagement.
@@creepypato3984 I dont necessarily think its for skins, maybe more to boost engagement like @Rodo079 said, they are using improved numbers / more features to drive people to try out a unpopular, but often very viable, champion
though I agree that some of the buffs are really stupid and maybe not so well thought out, and I do dislike the flavor of the month rotation style they do
However, although it is annoying it doesn't really matter long term for player rank, players who are better will climb and those who are worse won't so no matter what champ you play, the better player wins out long term
@@Rodo079 I think the idea that riot could just balance the whole roster with the flip of a switch is absurd, and denies the practical realities of the game, unless different skill brackets: pro, high elo, avg player, low elo, etc were separated into different balance patches, which would be a very bad idea, it is impossible to actually perfectly balance the game if only because there is no "perfect" balance a 50% wr champ with 10% play rate is brought down by players with low mastery while a 50% wr champ with 0.01% pickrate has its winrate inflated by the tiny numbers of extremely dedicated high mastery players
additionally pro play often requires that champions either be nerfed into the ground or reworked entirely despite being perfectly balanced in solo q, examples being rell, ryze, azir, and zeri all kinda suck in solo q or at least are balanced, while in pro they are broken even with sub 50% wr solo duo
I do agree that league could be more balanced and it isnt partially because of riots choices, but a perfectly balanced game would not only be boring, but no one would believe that it was perfectly balanced making the point altogether moot
This reminds me of when Pyke mid was super oppressive and they kept removing his wave clear to the point of his q only hitting 1 target and his e literally not dealing any damage to minions ahahaha.
The best thing is IT STILL WORKS LMAO.
They're doing the same BS to APC/mid seraphine too
@@Slayyyaphine Pfp (Profile picture) and / or Banner Sauce (Source [Artist])? 🗿
Balance teams snorting too much fentanyl
It sounds like a new champ
Don't wanna interrupt all the fun but fentanyl is intravenous drug...)
@candyballlecture627 Yes, but it's not limited to just that. It can also be administered intramuscularly as well as through skin patches.
Absorption via mucous membranes is possible. He wasn't wrong. It can be snorted.
@@m-mori interesting, thank you!
@@m-mori interesting, will try!
Rell is one of the tanks that actually is fun to watch. I kinda wish we could see more of her playmaking.
She has only one boring combo, requires low economy to be successful, she is a flex pick, AoE CC, and needed 500% bonus dmg to monsters to be successful 😆. In my opinion the last thing alone is enough to remove her from jg, but the other statements justify why the monster damage modifications needed to be removed.
@@Gelert_ 1 boring combo? W into Q+E into R, E+Q into W+R, W+R into E+Q, E into W+R into Q and these are just some to name a few and not even mentioning her W mount up as the ones i mentioned were speaking about W dismount but they can all be pulled off with mount up too if you want more single target focus
@@mrjamezjc9845 All of her other spells are still just a setup for R, no matter what order you press them in, the conclusion is still to jump into enemy and pull them together... The order of the spells doesnt change the combo, hence its still the same. And it is boring. Lol
Pfp (Profile picture) and / or Banner Sauce (Source [Artist])? 🗿
@@Gelert_Strong and / or op =/= unfun to watch and / or play against. 💀
i think was showmaker who start using tankzir instead of chovy
yes but chovy played It at an unimaginable level
@@bolche_vic so that just means he plays well...?
like, I don't see how him playing well has something to do with the comment talking about the build idea
@@4thsin098 because while he played insanely well, many of his plays were able to happen because of the tank build
the enemy team invested too much resource into killing him, but he just didn't die, then he suddenly went in and made a play, leaving no counterplay for the enemy team
the build maybe is a little strong but no one realized it was that OP until Chovy did insanely well with it
@@Seto22116 yeah I get that the build is really strong on azir and chovy utilized it very well but what I meant was the initial comment was talking about who thought of this build first, not how it allowed chovy to be comfortable with many positions that would otherwise get him killed
I was just confused that the topic went in a different direction, that's all
@bolche_vic shownaker did well tho
This is so sad, alexa, buff yone again.
it was on 14.8 plan list of buffs, alongside of viego, but the backlash from the community was so big that they withdrew from the buffs
Nah, better nerf irelia lol. 🗿
Riot: We want players to be able to come up with creative strategies and builds.
Also riot: No... don't do that.
So you created Rell in support and she was so bad that no one wanted to play her. You reworked her, it doesn't help and people tried to make her AT LEAST useful and starts picking her on other lanes. She got her second chance as a jungler and you JUST DELETED IT? Wow, rito really don't like this champion or they just don't want people do variety of plays
Yeah, second chance for sure, with that 0.5% jungle pickrate in soloque (on last patch, so before the nerfs) vs. Her 3.5% pickrate on supp. She's not the most popular supp, but people played her there a hell of a lot more than jungle.
@@titanofyoutube4834 People didnt play her in jungle because riot is forcing everyone to play carry champs. Rell is utility. As someone who plays poppy jg, rell was a great alternative in the utility role.
@declaringpond2276 Tanks are and always will be less popular, that's not because riot, that's because soloque players don't like having to rely on others for follow up and rell was the most extreme version of that. Sej, poppy, zac, all have some more damage and more agency. Rell without backup is literal dead meat. As a result, her jgl is broken in pro, but can never be good in soloque because soloque players will play around a rell.
@@titanofyoutube4834 Thats crazy, people dont play utility characters because enemy team yone can 1v9? Wow crazy
@declaringpond2276 well, that the is downright stupid. People don't play utility because of THEIR team, not the enemy team. Playing utility means other have to do the damage and you can't do anything alone. In the chaos of soloque, the only thing you can rely on is yourself, and utility picks are very bad at that.
Aight lets talk about why rell was basically pro play exclusive. It is not, as riot has thought it was, because rell just wasnt a good jungler, or because champs did her role better. It is in fact because riot has pushed for this "every role should carry" mentality with the champs that are played, and because rell can never carry on her own, soloq players dont want to play her. There was 1 very simple thing to reduce her pro play presence, and that was remove the extra q damage to monsters on epic monsters. Instead riot removes the whole champ from a role a lot of people loved/ were fine with, i never saw anyone complain about rell being the most annoying jungler. Now rell is at the point of people never picked in supp, and now having no other role to help boost her pick rate
The reason they did it is the same as what was the case with Blitzcrank.
Keeping them as a jungler meant they had to nerf them for their original support playerbase as well to keep the champs balanced. Just look at Rell. Last patch she was already bad in jungle and not great on support either for SoloQ, yet they still would have had to nerf her due to her being so prominent and strong in proplay. So, the mere existance of Rell jungle, meant that the bigger playerbase of Rell support had to continously put up with nerfs to her, just so the smaller jungle Rell playerbase could play their champion. And I think in case of Rell, this is especially unjustified as she's doesn't bring anything new or unique to the jungle role, but is just another engage tank like Seju.
@@lubue5795 Really didnt have to. If the problem was smite combo being so strong, just nerf Q for epic monsters and that was already a big nerf, and didnt affect support at all.
@@santi3256 It's not as simple as that and it's not just one reason either.
It's basically everything.
Let's say they do what you say and she gets worse at securing and stealing objectives. She still is a low econ jungler, who's very tanky, has a lot of CC can engage and peel well and is a flex for supp and jungle.
That's plenty enough for her being a viable flex pick.
In fact, we had a very similar issue with Seju a few years back. She was constant pick in proplay and had a 47 or below winrate in soloQ. The reason was that she was very tanky with strong engange and CC even when she had very little gold and xp. And that's fundamentally the issue of Rell. For Seju, they managed to make it better by buffing her scalings so she was more gold depended.
But for Rell, that's not a viable approach, as her support role needs to work with low gold and exp. So the only lever they have is making her clear worse and worse, but that also nerfs her already abyssmal soloQ performance. So, there's just no fix here that keeps her viable as a support and jungler while not screwing over her SoloQ playerbase.
@@lubue5795 SoloQ players does not matter, if they dont know how to play the champs correctly when they are strong its their problem not all the people problem. Like they nerf ksante when he was on like 49% winrate, and thats good because players that knew how to play him stomps. Like i have a 73% winrate with him because he was soo busted, low winrate on soloQ generally but monstrous winrate on people who actually know how to play it, u have to nerf it of course. But u cant remove ksante mid for example.
And if u think damge reduction to monsters does not affect in pro play u legit have no idea of the game, it would be an extreme nerf. Clearing slower, doing objectives like grubs slower and having worse smite secure could litteraly make her not an option for jungle in pro play, or at least a secondary option.
@@santi3256 @santi3256 Yeah, nerfing her clear would affect proplay. Of course it would. But it would affect SoloQ and all levels of SoloQ, no matter if good or bad, far, far more as SoloQ jungling is inherently more egocentric thus a bad clear, which means worse income and falling behind much quicker, is a bigger nerf. A Rell jungle balance for proplay would be unplayable in SoloQ.
Also, SoloQ players simply didn't want to play her in jungle. Her jungle playrate has always been very low, often undercutting Skarner. Pre-rework Skarner. So what's the point in keeping a champ in a certain position when it makes balancing much, much harder, while nobody wants to play it?
I think the game went downhill since RIOT began to actively remove certain playstyle instead of adding counterplay.
They continue to make the same mistakes, like releasing Zoe while knowing they don't want a poke meta after their Nidalee and Gragas reworks.
Dota 2, MLBB and Honor of Kings are counter-play philosophy games, while League and WR are out-play philosophy games, I say philosophy cause they have a little bit of the other. The problem with out-play philosophy is when a champ is nerfed or reworked hard enough, they easily become 💩or OP. When some skill is buffed with +69 damage, it easily becomes OP, but when its in Dota 2 it still depends, like if u can BKB out of it or KYS with Blademail. There's also Eon Disk, Euls scepter, Manta to dodge projectiles. In League everything is already predictable when you're in range.
It became even more apparent when they removed the QSS interaction with Mord ult and suppress in general.
They are removing counter play from the game too, qss nerfs are ridiculous
@@MangaGamified True, but at the same time, they still have some champs that completely counter others.
Irelia against Yorick for instance.
The problem with RIOT is that they lack consistency in their designs. Their vision for the game change each year.
At first, assassins were designed to finish weakened opponents, not one shot them.
Tank didn't deal any damage but could disrupt and soak up a lot of damage.
Now, it's quite rare for a champion not to be able solo kill their lane opponent.
Most archetype that got heavily nerfed or removed from the game came back a few years later as a new champion.
They literally told us why they reworked Gragas and Nidalee. It was because artillery mages that removes half your life with one spell from 2 screens away are not healthy for the game. Then several years later, they release Zoe !
It's like they don't remember their own patch notes.
One more reason often overlooked in what made Rell being picked so often: It's a flex pick, something only really accounted for in pro play and not in solo play
Someone probably lost a bet to that flex so in revenge they nerfed Rell
As a top laner, flex pick give me anxiety when I pick last
It is never flexed into sup dude
And, as you may guess it, riot is nerfing it again in 17.8 despite buffing yone, j4 and kai'sa.
Rito games ladies gentleman and others
Kaisa is getting buffed, which means that they're gonna release a skinline with kaisa in it. I'm pretty much certain of it
Yone was pulled from the patch. Thank god
@@enderforces7013 They also want some flashy plays on MSI
@@phoenixflamegames1 yone got kicked? Oooooo
Kaisa is weak in high elo, balanced
Can we just have 2 different versions of the game? One for pros and one for us losers?
You are asking way too much for this indie company!
No dude, the fact we are playing the same game as the pros are is what makes lol so interesting, what a shit take
too much work and wont bring player engagement
And have it end up like other games that have done this where people don't watch pro cause it's too different to the game we play?
And what about apiring players climing through masters and grandmasters?
They're supposed to be given the finger because the game they want to play is fundamentally different?
Yes exactly! They have different balance adjustments for ARAM, so there is not any reason why they can't have different balance changes for pro play and solo queue. They could even have different balance changes for each division.
Man, I really liked Rell jungle. Why do they keep doing this where they add a fun jungle option for a champ and then just randomly remove it? They did it to Blitz, and now Rell. Ugh
As a very big Rell enjoyer, i have to say that i really like this, Rell wasn't even a support with jungle as an offrole but she had become a jungle with a support offrole, i think support must remain her main role and if Riot wants her tu have an Offrole, i'd personally rather it to be Top lane rather than jungle as i think it fits her playstyle better.
(also i preferred her before the rework althought it made her even worse on toplane)
Azir is not even his fault, its the new items and grasp on range champions being op
also because they want the fight longer for view and remove one shot aka dmg so tank live longer and they can deal more dmg
As someone who actually played jg and support Maokai for like 2 years before Riot decided to Maokai a jg and support, I feel Riot just likes to tear our souls.
I think u forgot to say your point
maoikai was originally a jg 10 years ago.
@@Alasadg yea ok but bro did not say anything? He said he played maokai jg and sup for 2 years and then riot decided maokai a jg and sup? What does that mean?
I guess because Rell suck in bith roles?
@@PekoraMamiCouncilHK who even talked about rell XD
Support and jungle are two of the most forced roles in the game. Back in season 1 jungle was merely an option and very few champs could even pull it off. The constant need to have flashy, adhd-inducing plays just to keep milking the esports cash cow was and forever will be the reason the game is unbalancable. It's a never ending game of whack-a-mole where everything takes a turn being unbalanced. When the game was about strategy, patience and planning it was much easier to balance accordingly. Power creep, mobility creep and even complexity creep has ireversably prevented the game from being truly balancable and these changes like you see to rell, azir and even ryze will keep happening until the inevitable death of league as we know it.
True, it's a dying game, but some rioters can still get some extra cash from bets by "fixing" matches with buffs/nerfs. Just look up the vietnam scene in esports
This is the problem of an out-play focused game instead of counter-play like Dota 2, MLBB and Honor of Kings.
That's why many games have rock-paper-scissors or even up to five elements to keep things in balance
Did anyone cover just how bad the Skarner rework was?
He went from a fast and fun tank disruptor to a worse version of malphite, the rework is on par with Mordekaiser, they basically deleted a champion and released a new one.
He doesn't even feel like jungler any more, he feels like illaoi, completely lost his identity of a chaser, it's like they tried to make a toplaner, idk what were they thinking when they stripped him of all the movement speed buffs he used to have.
just like they "reworked" shen from a toplane bully into a support virrgin pick
Average Riot games moment if you ask me.
bait used to be believable
did the same to sylas jungle camille jungle qiyana jungle, slightly buffed back up after long time but still d tier at best.
1:34 Rakan just wintrading lol
Least wintraded chinese lol match
more like jayce wintrading there lol. 2 of their team already died and he decided to charge into 5 to try and kill the support ??💀 rakan barely got his spells up, has 2hp, should've gone in in an instant for the play you think?? and after he didn't take the 0.5sec window to go in for a psycho play he has to look out for ksante w cancelling his w aswell.
The problem isn't removing her from jungle, it's putting her into jungle to begin with
If only there was a way to lock champions to a certain role
well it was part of the Rell skill redisign, as she was a considered a very forgetable champ. The problem is no one still played her in jungle in casual and she did become popular in support role, hence they just gutted the jungle role cause if they nerfed jungle the support rells would cath stray bullets
So why buff Sylas to jungle again if he's a mid laner
No more off roles, only one
For everyone
If Rell cant have hers who cares
Balance becomes subjective the moment you decide one champ shouldnt be allowed to do the same thing as another champ because what made Rell annoying is now being given to a snowballing carry mage instead of a tank support but funny how its "ok"
@@wastingsunthey're buffing sylas jg?
Last I checked he hasn't been a good jg for ages
@@wastingsun what made rell annoying that usually tanks have safer ganks with the tradeoff of having slower clears. when rell was released she had one of the fastest clear speed of all meta junglers.
yes sylas can go jngl off role but he dosent perform any differently from other damage oriented junglers
as a jungler i hate when tanky ones pop up on meta coz i usually default to them and rely on my team mates for damage which is particularly bad in Solo Q unless your fairly high up
I thought jungle Rell was fine even in pro. She wasn't a must-pick champion by any means, but she did what you want a Rell to do while leaving the room to be flexed to either jg or support, and I love champions that can be flexed.
A simple fix for jungle rell is just make it that her bonus damage to camps does less to single targets and give her maybe a dot or ramping attack speed or something to help her clear the single targets quicker without being able to secure them so easily, jungle rell could clear multiunit camps in the blink of an eye with 1/2 items but took FOREVER to kill things like drag/herald and even blue/red and froggy boi took a while for her, they just needed to brainstorm a bit and find a way to make her speed of soloing major objs quicker without making her 1 shot every multiunit camp and also nerf her flat damage with E+Q so she couldnt secure objectives so easily
The problem with Rell jungle was that she needed literally 0 Gold to deal damage, had insane cc from lvl 3 on, has great ganks and a good clear speed. I agree they should never have made her a jungler, because she is nearly impossible to balance for pro and casual play in jungle.
Agreed so many people crying about this when they should have never made rell a jungler in the first place.
Just reducing his Q damage to monsters was enough. Litteraly as simple as that, it dont affect support rell.
Abilities deals 69 😏 damage to non-champs.
@@santi3256 Her Q damage to monsters is how she clears. You remove that and you might as well just remove the rest of the Jungle Rell buffs because she would be sitting clearing her camps still at 4 minutes.
@@YuYuYuna_ And that is not better than removing her completely out? xd
They mentioned that it was not just pro play but other reasons. Basically the first thing was the toxic patterns in jungle and supp with her objective secures. The second was her popularity and win rate was so niche that even pro players only played her to practice for pro and never picked her otherwise. They would EXCLUSIVELY play in coordinated and not solo queue. The third was it wasn't actually very good in solo queue and polarized Rell in a weird way. The final and main reason was that her strength in the jungle was basically removing pick rate from support and making her unbuffable in support which was the main reason they went forward with the change. It basically was killing the Champ to keep jungle enabled. They also stated they did this so that they can buff Rell Support to acceptable levels and have already been steadily buffing her. They want Rell to be satisfying to the whole player base and specifically Rell Support to feel good. The Champ has been dead due to pro for a while now.
2 things: Reduced damage to monsters &/or a separate esport² version
²which most if not many betters/gamblers and only content creation watcher only watches
I loved to play tank Azir in ARAM about a year ago. It didn't feel strong, but I just wanted to do as much drifts as possible without getting punished, and it was indeed pretty fun!
They never should add rell into jungle to begin with
And her stupid ass bonus damage to monsters was a problem for balancing support rell too
If a simple % modifier’s number change is too difficult for those people then they should stop doing game balance completely. Because they’re clearly not fit for it.
I love playing champions that are traditionally seen as Supports or supportive in Jungle. Alistar, Shen and Swain are some of my favorite off meta jungle picks, and until they removed it I loved playing Blitzcrank. I never got to play Rell in Jungle and it deeply saddens me. Riot just doesn't like it when Supports start playing other roles for some reason.
Tank Azir has been an open secret in the Azir community for a while now. Last year it was really good when Abyssal Mask gave mana and Seraphs gave health. Liandry's, Seraphs, Frozen Heart, Abyssal Mask, Demonic Embrace.
Well if they remove rell from the jungle, they can also bring rell's old E back. I loved playing against rakan when you can engage into enemy carry and canel rakan's engage with one click.
When tank items work on non-tanks it’s because the items are too strong. This happened in season 5 when assassins like fizz, echo, talon, etc. would go one damage item then full tank because they wouldn’t do damage by building damage so you might as well build tank
Two things I'd like to point out are:
1- Grasp might be bugged on Azir because it has 40% effectiveness on ranged and Soldier activate on-hit effects at 50% value, yet they work as a normal ranged auto attack thus giving Azir more stats/dmg than it should, it may not be a big change but it means that grasp should work at 20% on soldier auto.
2-Grasp Azir had his first appearances with ShowMaker a couple months ago in the LCK
and tank azir was a thing much much earlier than azir on hit change
great now i both hate and love the changes due to pro play. On one hand i absolutly hate Azir so any nerf is a welcome one but on the other hand rell jungle was on of my favorites.
when i see Azir lock in i just dodge lobby bcs there is NO GOOD AZIR PLAYERS IN PLAT/EMERALD ppl pls stop copying esport picks
I'm not even sure why people are complaining about tank Azir of all things lol, if we see the clip at 0:50 Viper takes almost no damage from Chovy whereas a full damage Azir would've taken away half her hp bar with just that Q auto which imo is much more obnoxious
@@Roflmao6173because instead of being able to one shot azir before he one shots you, you can 5 man focus him and he kills one before you can focus him down and then walks away
A *NOT FED* ksante operates the same way and you see people bitching about that
And here i am, waiting for them to finally notice they should have different patches for proplay and for casual game
True; most if not many are just betters/gamblers or just content creation watchers, I never play heartstone, Tekken, streetfighter and the recent Lethal Company, and watch them and act like I know💩 just from basic inference and a little bit of looking up.
This will always be the case with champs like Azir, Kalista and so on... the skill ceiling is just way to high to balance it for both fields
honestly i rather had Rell changed for Jungle only than what we got.
we have plenty of options in the support role that does exactly the same thing Rell does with a bit more consistency and having a good tank option in the jungle is honestly a great change to the one shot assassin junglers we're having for a long time...
Leona, Rakan, Nautilus, Maokai... All of them are already great to fit Rell's role in the botlane and those jungle changes made me fall in love to the champion... but yeah, Riot just looks over pro play and will never have their players have fun with wide range of options.
And those changes proofs that Riot needs to make separate game version each for Pro play and normal servers, it would instantly change the game simply because of Proplay could have more variety of champion pull and meta on normal servers could change too. I might know that for Riot it would be maybe not impossible but not worth spending money for it but let's be honest, how many times Riot made us furious with changes for some sort of champions only because proplay ruined those champions.
Hell Tank Diana with Heartsteel, sunfire, and riftmaker. With Conquer first rune and then resolve with overgrowth and shield bash in ARAM is strong. He W's shield scales off of health making her trades very efficient.
I was wondering how Tank Diana would do top lane.
the biggest loser is me... 10 game lose streak...
only 10? best bronze player NA
@@garou9914I remember when Tyler 1 went on 15 game loss streak must make him like iron lol
Try Dota 2 or Honor of Kings, to finally finalize if it's really skill or something else
I just came back to the game as a main support and the meta feels so weird. I tried playing my old mains Blitzcrank, Thresh and Braum and I feel like they're not even viable anymore. I'm stuck playing Pyke at the moment, even tho I hate assassins.
Imo they could of just removed the extra q dmg to monsters for rell but maybe increase it on e/w so she can't just walk up or flash q smite to secure objectives easily
Corki too. He sucks in normal play but is insane in pro play. Riot needs to do something about these champions because its not fun for them to balance around pro-play.
man....
back then when azir first came out
that's the only champ I played.
i did well with him.
but with nerfs and me not playing much for a long time now(currently playing as a support) I suck playing as azir ;-;
I mean it's the damage on Q + smite which is the issue. Not sure how they would go around keeping her as a jungler while nerfing that because her Q is the only reason she can clear camps at all. Honestly this is for the best because Rell Q + smite made many objective fights not excited because as long as your team was ahead or had the better positioning you would 100% of the time secure the objective because it is un-out-smite-able.
the biggest offender of broken in proplay and shit in soloq is Kalista tbh been that way since she was released, i remember riot planned a mini rework for her along with Azir but only Azir's came through and they never talked about it again
Riot constantly tries to say stuff like they dont balance around pro play or they will try to balance around all tiers then just do stuff like this and show nothing they say can be trusted. Guess we just got to wait for the next Rell rework for her to actually be a champion and not just a poor mans Taric or Leona or Nautilus or well just any actual tank support that can do anything more than her which isn't hard to do.
That's the problem with true coop play vs individualist coop play. The ability to play a champion to its full potential is based on the play of the other champions and players.
craziest nerf? Have you forgotten the first reworked irelia? She got nerfbanged so much, her animation shows it with her walk style. Holding them thighs as tight as possible after those nerfs
It’s crazy that they can just shoot Rell out of the jungle like that, I ONLY played her jungle so they practically just removed a champ from my game and playing her exclusively as support feels so sterile and boring by comparison. I feel like a change to her Q damage to monsters not being a mini Nunu Q would have been fair
Hot take: locking champions to only one role or build is the worst game design choice in terms of diversity of choice, but its the easiest to balance. Its why I roll my eyes every time riot mentions "champion/build diversity" in patch notes, because historically riot has always removed the changes they've made to include diverse gameplay in favor of pro play balace; the only time i can remember that a change was for all levels of play is the removal of mythic items.
riot balancing league based on few matches made during championship which makes like... 0.0000000001% of all games is just inferior move
Yes,cuz rell jngl was oh so popular and them removing her from jungle is such a big deal
Pro play pays the bills tho
@dantevoncrowlley2243 in sponsorship, sure, keeping it alive, but Riot still makes bulk of their money on skin sales, and their esports scene is actually losing them money.
@@DanteCrowlley it doesnt...
@@enzpogi143 I think some rioters also buff/nerf based on who they lost bets to, I have no proof, but this is the reason why all if not many developer wants their game to be esports, for the money in bets. cause it's easy enough to set up and no face is lost/disgraced like sponsors. Sponsors are just a little insurance for the facilities, etc.
Look up the vietnam esport scene just recently
This is how you can understand that the Riot balancing team is doing a bad job. reverting the changes they made ... I wonder if having a "player's vote " for just one balancing change is too much for the game or company ... maybe I am too optimistic about this idea
But why lie about chovy innovating this build? It was found by korean otp on soloq and first picked up by showmaker
League should implement champion rotations for competitive, like a banlist of 40 - 70 champions for diversity and give under appreciated champions a place in pro play
I just want Rell to be able to go toplane, like idk make it so her autos do extra damage to minions so that her attack speed doesn't prevent her from csing
Just gonna say it - Rell should have *never been designed as a support champ*. Her whole attitude is literally "I would rather fight by myself because I can only trust myself" because of her Black Rose experiment trauma and then they go and strap her to the side of an ADC because "lmao engage tank = support". It was such a clash of gameplay and story that it was honestly a breath of fresh air seeing her be played in jungle, semi-solo. It made sense.
And then they decide to get rid of it because I guess Riot can't even care about their own champion aesthetics anymore. I literally would have rather seen a full rework of Rell to be a new tank jungler and gut her support role rather than this. It just makes sense for her character. Also do it for Nautilus, too, because he was a cool jungler - where he *originally was supposed to be, Riot.*
I dont understand why riot doesnt make different balance changes from proplay and for normal people. A lot of things are being changed for the 0.0000000001% of the people that is proplayers where us plebs who can only watch proplay have to adjust on what the pros complain about or abuse.
Sure they cant practice but riot is big enough to figure out a way for pros to practice the different patch from pro vs solo queue
no remove rell jungle is not the right desicion. i accutally hate it if riot trys to force a certain champ away from a new role or playstyle creative players just came up whit.
as for azir that tank build is no new innovation its around for a couple of matches now mostly at toplane and aram.
Creative players came up with rell jungle??😂😂 Are you delusional? Riot had to give her nearly +500% dmg against monsters to make her viable in jungle. When a champ needs that much mod to jungle effectively, they should not be a jungler in the first place. Rell jungle was a mistake and prevented rell sup from being buffed. They should have never made her a jungler in the first place.
0:40 What?
But nobody played Rell as jg, she was played as support who helped her jg to clear it. Same as blitzcrank did, thats why both of those champs jg buffs got rmeoved..
I strongly believe allowing champions 2 roles is very healthy for gameplay, and allowing Rell to comfortably play Support or Jungle was good for the game. Imagine you want supp and have backup roll Jungle, no problem you still can play your champion! With the role backups being required now, it's so important to me to play champions I know work in more than one role. For this reason, I think destroying Jungle Rell only hurt her as a champion and the game as a whole. Sure it's a pro-play game, but at the end of he day it's a game. Riot forgets this sometimes.
I still think they should make a ban list for proplay, like make a list of champion that cannot be both balanced for pro play and normal play. It would make balancing easier AND would make pro play more entertaining by letting free slot for other champion to be played instead of always the same one we always see
They did this to so many of my jungle picks… ornn, pyke, now rell… you can’t have nice things without pro play ruining it :/
I kind of get why they would make a change like this to refresh the meta in pro play. Teams won't be able to flex pick that character now which makes drafts less creative at the same time. Feel like they could have made a few minor adjustments instead of gutting this character entirely from a role. It's just lazy.
And what about the other 15+ characters that have a 50% presence in pro games in the last 2 seasons that they haven't adjusted (They touched 1 of them recently in the last 3 months worth of patches and it hasnt affected its PB rate).
Are we pretending like the pros don't play multiple patches behind? Because guess what, they do.
2:47 Varus?
corki
Alright, now when is Leona's jungle arc?
Nah but actually as someone who plays toplane Leona sometimes, I think it'd be insanely cool if they just reverted a really old change they made to here where they made it so only allies could proc her passive.
I really like the idea of solo lane Leona, and think the only change they'd have to make for it to be viable would be to allow her to use her own passive.
As for azir this is why carries shouldnt have high base damage and as for rell - she got changed not because rell jungle was too strong but because rell SUPPORT could basically double jungle with her jungler and clear the whole map in negative time + taking dragons barons heralds and grubs. U cant just give supports "you can also delete jungle" treatment.
The rell incident
As a Rell main this fucking sucks dude
To make azir a staple of pro play, they have to make his ult an ascension ult. Increase range on abilities, and attack speed. Right now, he cant ever be strong to play because of his ult.
"Not often do we see champions get removed from a role."
April 1st already passed this is too late for April Fools.
every rell jungle i had in emerald elo thought they were the new upcomming jungle star picked rell jungle and completley ruined the game for the team they were in
I remember when rell was released i was like "This champ is a jungler" and and played some games of her in the jg, but i believe she didnt have bonus dmg to monsters so it was pretty shit, but i was still certain that she was a jungler
And at the same time they are forgetting about champs like Heimerdinger or Mordekaiser who not struggle alot currently, but are actually pretty much useless in higher elos and espc. in pro play. Even BeryL, who played him lots in worlds 2022, says he is pretty useless nowadays, as his basic attack dmg, attack speed, projectile speed, and the dmg scaling on his abilities are bad, on top the champs he synergies a lot with aren't in a great or decent spot either. And Mordekaiser ... well to explain why he is useless in high elo and pro games could fill a book.
games where pro play is so relevant turn competitive quick, and it's difficult to be a casual player in a game where balancing is built around the 0,01% of the playerbase.
Chovy carrying an entire series (+Canyon objective steals) on Tank Azir, in LCK playoffs, against a top team, is one of the craziest things I've seen in pro play. Chovy always impresses me but this is WILD
I just don't understand why they went scorched earth with jg Rell. They could have capped the damage she dealt to camps to weaken her clear. Instead they just remove it all together while failing to address the actual problem - that low income, high impact junglers are *the* meta in pro play and even in the higher levels of solo queue.
I think Riot is just slowly killing it's player base by balacing the game around pro-play. It's unfair how champs like Azir, Ryze, Zeri and Aphelios (before crit itens buffs) are just OPENLY made weak so they don't see the sun shining in the competitive play
imagine riot just gets sick of balancing pro play & all ranks of soloq at the same time and just decides to make champs like azir and zed only playable in ranked if ur above some rank 😭
I love it when 0.0001% of the population of the game determines balance changes for everyone else
I've been playing on Azir with such a build for more than a month now and it's not even close to as strong as on the pro scene. In Soloq, you need to make damage and win by yourself, not wait for the team. And now, Azir is one of the worst champions in the middle line, with any runes and items. It is a pity that the balance in the game is for 0.00001% of the players from the pro scene.
But you cant really compare those cases. Rell was support and got changed so she can also play jungle and now they just reverted that change, while azir is just hard champ and his winrate master+ isnt that bad
Riot doesn't want primary supports to be useful in other roles, because they are usually focused on slowing down the game, while riot loves to speed up the game with flashes, dashes and other nonsense and selling it as "skill expression" when even pros can't fully keep up with champs reliably.
That's also why "non primary" supports are often getting into the role.
That nerf to Azir does exactly nothing to change him. If anything, people will go tank Azir even more than before, because you lose even more tankiness. You only lose 8 damage on maxed W, thats barely anything for the tankiness you gain. Losing HP Regen makes it even better to go grasp and tank, because you are less relient on it. I don't understand Riot. In the past they buffed scalings and nerfed base-damage aswell as interactions with tank items. Now they nerf base-tankiness? And you get no compensation? Why go damage then?
Rell is not the first champ who got completly remove for a role. We have Sylas jungle back in the day and Riot destroy him because he was to strong (like Rell now).
But for no reason, they buff Sylas jungle on the last patch and they want to buff him again in the next one !
Sometimes I really don't understand Riot decision but I think with this, we can expect Rell jungle back in 2 years.
I generally loathe when developers cater to the 0.0001% of players, and not the millions of casuals and average consumers. You know, the people who actually make money for the game.
so what we learn for this? yep tankbuild/tank kit is absolute broken when let them scale but guess what riot do instead yep nerf dmg instead
They should just make flex the default ranked queue so the fan experience gets closer to pro. Imagine everytime you went to play pick up basketball ball, you had to play with 4 strangers everytime, of course the game is going to look different
I will never be a fan of pro play, it used to be something that I was like "maybe I'll listen to it while I clean" or something but now I can't even listen to it cause every time I hear "WOAH AND ____ PULLS AN AMAZING PLAY" I get spoilers on which champ riot is gonna nerf next patch cause they have no idea what's going on anywhere outside of tournaments
I think this is sooo bad, how can they have one year of rell jungle which is turbo OP in PRO play, with the fastest clear and you basically cannot be outsmited and suddendly say, not anymore and just remove her completly from that role and not just nerf the modifiers from 300% to 200% or 150%.
And why do they do it right now? All playoffs are held on patch 14.6, so rell is still good and MSI is going to be on patch 14.8 where rell will never be picked anymore (because she was only picked for support as flex to get a better jungle matchup).
Maybe they wanted a new MSI meta to have the same meta as Worlds, but then again why not nerf her earlier to get this meta in the regional seasons aswell.
would be cool if different balance changes were made seperately just for pro play, but then again riot games is a small indie dev company with 200 years of experience
I hate it when Riot removes champs from certain roles. It's sad.