Where League's Champion Design FAILS (And Dota's Succeeds)
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- čas přidán 6. 03. 2024
- The “Overloaded Kit” can be difficult to balance. I believe that Riot’s approach to champions with such skillsets can be improved upon further by giving each of their champions innate weaknesses, much like how Dota’s overloaded champs will always have counterplay regardless of how far ahead the enemy is in terms of in-game resources or individual skill level.
Clips used in the video (aside from gameplay clips) are owned by their respective entities. The purpose of this video is to express an opinion and I am by no means intending copyright infringement.
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Paranoia - Heartsteel (Instrumental)
Gods - A capella - Riot Games
Strategy - Dramatic Music
Dota 2 Theme - Valve
Elevate - TheFatRat
Origin Reprise - TheFatRat
frost - Rexlambo
free download + stream: fanlink.to/r_frost
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Australia Theme - Atomic - (Civilization 6 OST)
league's modern champion designs are like the devs competing on who has the best OC
DotA is like that too, and then every few patches they have a kindergarten argument of "Oh yeah? Well now mine can do THIS!"
Lmfao
Akali shroud working on turrets was the most retarded shit ever. “Uhmm no my champions invisibility isnt invisibility so the tower cant see her. She is shrouded not invis”
@@TheMalkavianPrince I think that's more fun though. If you main a certain hero there's less of a chance that you feel left behind.
@@TheMalkavianPrince It happen less often now i think, ever since grimstroke i think.
As someone who knows next to nothing about Dota, Nature's prophet just sounds like lethality Yorick on steroids.
I never made that connection but YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT! Prophet IS Yorick. He even used to be played like a dedicated split-pusher before they nerfed split pushing.
lehality yorick with a twisted fate ult as a normal spell
Eh more recently prophet has mainly been used as a lane-dominating support who essentially guarantees you win 1, probably two lanes with global presence and absurd ability spam
@@karlliebknecht2987 np support is VERY new thing. dota existed for 20 years, np i believe ~18-19. him being played as supp stated like 3 years ago
@@Acex2ron wish league nerfed split pushing...
old atrox ult could revive himself, they said it was too op, but a passive on a ranged assasin can reveive his whole team...sure
remember when ksante had %scaling true damage and was removed because phreak said %max hp true damage was a mistake last year? and now smolder came with %scaling true damage
never trust riot design team
Akshan revives with his W
@@ekSil0Yeah... His W Passive
@@samski2185 W
The difference is that Akshan revives his team at the base, so they cannot get back into the teamfight (League has way less global mobility than DOTA). Aatrox had his revive removed only a year after his rework because his new kit already had a lot of strenghts, old Aatrox had a revive to compensate for having one of the worst kits in the game.
I've always said that League is more about Outplay, while DotA is more about Counterplay, and the issue in League is that oponents have a harder time going against champs with overloaded kits because they have less options for outplay, while in DotA, even the most overloaded kits can still be hard countered
This is very much true! Which is why I think the champs with Overloaded kits were designed to be really hard to play. If everyone could play K’sante, he’d be auto banned every game.
why does akshan revive teammates again? is it something that had to do with his lore?
There’s also the aspect of items. League items are shit compared to Dota. I mean theoretically any hero can buy Eul’s scepter and boom, you have cc to counterplay to a carry. In league if your team doesn’t have cc it doesn’t.
@@Cricket0021his gun revives the people that his enemies killed in lore
Except for OD with Aghs... Like I don't really consider myself good at the game but how tf do you play against that?
I still remember the first time a friend showed me Dota 2:
"Remember Leona's Ult from League?"
"Yeah~"
"That's Lina's W."
That and the creep denial mechanic blew my mind (I was a support player)
almost every single time i heard of a support player from league come to dota 2 they say "i actually get to roam and do other stuff than just stay in lane" apart from the "items feel better in dota 2"
@@xaevius5319 wtf, roaming is a core mechanic to league supports tho??
@@Haatroxx i think he refers to DOTA u roam A LOT more than league cuz as a support u have alot more meaningful choices. Pulling creep wave, stacking jungle, warding, securing runes for mid, using gates to switch between bot and top, while ur carry benefit solo exp. In league, u pretty much gank mid/jungle or ward nearby and that's it.
@@Haatroxx to add to what the other guy said, i've played both dota and league. i have a lot more hours in dota 2 and definitely know a whole lot more about meta and strategy when it comes to dota, but from my experience i can definitely see what league supports say when it comes to what they said that i just repeated. in league i feel like there's kind of little reason to leave lane. you can push tower, you can get exp, you share gold with your carry, meanwhile in dota 2 usually mid needs help, runes spawn at 2 mins, you need to bother the other support cuz he's pulling and stuff like that, you need to ward cuz unlike league you need to buy wards and that usually falls to support. maybe it's different at higher ranks or pro play but from what i've experienced myself "roaming" ain't the same in league as it is in dota 2.
@@Haatroxx support can roam from level 1 and help ganking other lane because they don't have to baby sit their carry int the early game like in league.
Reading league skills is like reading the entire text book
Dota2 skills: send the projectile that stuns for 10 minutes
And people say Dota is harder lmao
@@hel9157 because there's more mechanics. Tryna make DotA look bad without using your brain lmao 🤡
@@hel9157 "less is more"
As someone who plays DOTA and League. Dota is Harder because there's a lot to do. Lane blocking, Camp stacking, roaming, ward deward (yes, I know League have this too but at least we don't have to decide to put it on high ground or low ground.).
League's easier because it is simpler in gameplay, but it is genuinely harder to play it in late game because of those 1 shot kill ADC or assasins. Yes, Dota also have those 1 shot pick up heroes too, but at least we can counter them with items. There's no such items in League.
Maybe it's my lack of experience in League (played casually from 2010 to 2015) but Dota heroes just feel more intuitive
Like when a new hero comes out you can read through their skills and know exactly what they're good for and what items would suit them, whereas in league it feels like every champ has to have their own unique mechanic with walls of text per skill and choose among items that have a lot of duplicate effects between them
I always love the hero design conversation between these 2 games and the following is always my favourite point to bring up.
168 champs in LoL.
80 were completely ignored at the last world finals. This means no picks or bans in any match.
Dota has 124 and there was 7 heros not picked or banned by any team. The funniest part about that is one of those 7 heros will usually be in any given dota match as they are all quite good in pub games (lion/shadowshaman/meepo/sladar/abbadon/winterwyvern/sladar) the only hero there you would go even 10 games without seeing commonly is meepo and even then he is still picked often.
As they say, *"Nothing is broken when everything is broken."*
Kidding aside, I really like Dota's way of balancing things. Each and everyone have checks that could really punish them hard, and when those checks are no longer working because they were overtuned, that's when they'll tweak the numbers. It really does feel like you're playing a chess match with 9 other people in one board.
Its because league is more arcade-y moba. Most of the time its a battle between who has faster reflexes and mechanics. Dota on the other hand is mostly macro, ward placement, when to rotate as a support, farming pattern as a carry, stacking neutral camps.
@@Cricket0021 That's true but I also think that nerfing a hero's number to the ground as your go to 'fix' just cuz you can't find a way to tune the overloaded kits of heroes in LOL is such a lazy way of trying to 'balance' the game. Like, bro, when you were making your hero fantasy or whatever the heck that was during the design phase, did you not expect it to become that strong?
Thats more frequent in lol than Dota @@Sei003
@@Sei003league struggles with that. when i started league,I liked having ap scaling and CDR for my skills especially coming from dota 1 where skills are a lot more static when it comes to those 2 values. then I later on realize that you could only have a skill as powerful as black hole if its on a 5 min cooldown and balancing becomes a nightmare if you're trying to balance a skill at 0 CDR,45cdr, and dmg scaling based on item options
I really hate the movement of characters in dota though. The rotation speed. And too few skillshots. League feels a bit like a fighting game
Ghandi once said:
K'Sante👤4,700 HP💪329 Armor🤷♂201 MR💦 Unstoppable🚫A Shield 🛡 Goes over walls🧱Has Airborne🌪Cooldown is only☝second too🕐 It costs 15 Mana🧙♂
Ghandi?
@@Lastofhiskind_ Yeah, Ghandi. Also known as DK Showmaker.
@@zimzalabimzed oh
Then he dropped nukes upon his enemies.
@@argumentumadhominem3977 dont forget how he can shield his own summoner irl to protect them against the nuke
The biggest problem is that Dota2 is a teamgame, whilst LoL is not. What do I mean by that, clearly they are both 5v5. In Dota2 if you fuck up early you can still come back through good macro play and adjusting your build to the situation. In LoL a single lane gets stomped, there is no macro play, you just get rolled by the gold diff. Build flexibility isnt a thing either in LoL. You have a lot of viable builds per champion nowadays, they did that well... but because of the rune system you very much lock in your build before the game starts.
The Teamplay problem is so bad that teamfight synergy is not even considered a priority until the very top ranks. Because people can get away with split pushing so much. That's not the case with DotA due to the prevalence of teleport to the point that some heroes like Tinker will rush teleport to maximize the global presence. Trying to rely solely on split pushing will either result in the other team buying teleport to catch you or force a 4v5 with the rest of your team. And your comment about inflexibility is on point. Like AP Shaco and AD Shaco are almost like two different champions to the point that you cannot switch the build the moment you choose it.
@@minhducnguyen9276 Tinker tele is free now btw so he's a global hero since lv1, not rare you see tinker Tp to other lane at min 5
@@minhducnguyen9276 Dota2 spent 3 years working on its gold mechanics because comebacks where not possible in dota1.
Everytime i queue up a league game for something different I am amazed that theyre okay with staying in one lane for 30 minutes, One game I was flammed for ganking mid as a support I couldnt believe the contrast
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 The lack of comebacks made dota a better game, modern dota is the reason for its irrelevance.
Great video. The biggest thing to point out here is that just because it might be balanced doesn't mean it isn't frustrating. Low numbers or not, league is at a point where early game advantage matters so much that one kill can lead to an unstoppable snowball on any of these champions. The fact is, unlike Dota, riot hates giving their champions limiters, and hates it when items can actually be good enough to help you deal with shitty things happening in your game.
They have a lack of committal in many facets of the game's design, most champions have incredibly safe methods of going in with no inherent way to counter said engages, they insist on assassins being late game carries despite their design being incredibly strong at going in for free and getting out for free most of the time. They don't like it when items can cover for weaknesses either, for example, we have Opportunity, which is an assassin item that grants you a boost of movement speed when you get a kill so you can get a kill and have a better chance of getting out. This is a fine design on its own, but the fact that most assassins already have great escape tools means this item is basically redundant a lot of the time :p
I really do think it comes down to what both games are meant to be. After playing both for an extended period of time, Dota leans harder into the strategy aspect of the genre, and League is really more of a power fantasy--and my God does it do a good job at doing that.
But it just sucks when you're not the one popping off for that particular game, and the guy who is is your role opponent. It's kind of unhealthy from a balance perspective, but to give Riot some credit it's quite an addicting gameplay loop.
@@Acex2ronYeah but I'd argue eventually the gameplay loop stops being fun and just ends up being frustrating :P
At the very least I'd like to have the option to buy items to counter things like in DotA
@@Acex2ron I would argue the power fantasy aspect doesn’t work in Leagues favor, especially since the game didn’t really start out like that and created a situation where a lot of highly mobile “outplay” champs compete against others with kits not designed to handle it. It kind of undermines the aspect of team play a little in exchange for being the main center of attention in ay given match, which also contributes to the type of toxicity the community has.
League isn't fun when on the losing team, Dota still is
@@edde2429Yeah exactly, you're not entirely deprived of agency after dying once or twice like in league, it certainly isn't _great_ to die early but you're not totally screwed just because of it.
ngl when I first saw K'Sante, I thought he look likes a character from the MCU, not in a good way
He DOES look like Michael B. Jordan! Hope you liked the vid!
@@Acex2ronHopefully one day you can make a Tier List video of what if All the current roster of DotA 2 were to get transferred to League of Legends
@@Acex2ronIMO he looks more like mbaku
The overused Killmonger hair lol
@@Acex2ron He's a cringe self-insert of Lil Nas X
Why riot has some characters with mana bars and others don't is still a mystery to me
Isn't resource management supposed to be an important part of moba gameplay?
Like it doesn't have to be mana, but nothing should be free.
@andrewgreeb916 exactly this. There are Champs that use mana, some use energy, some use their own freaking health. And yet riot adds Champs that use absolutely nothing
There is always an individual explanation for each one, altough it is often is a bullshit reason:
- Yone has no mana simply because his kit is made to parallel his brother Yasuo who also has no mana
- Viego has no mana because it would be confusing to deal with different mana bars when he transforms into his enemies
- Riven has no mana because... well in this case there is no excuse at all
The way its supposed to work is that champs with alternate resources have different ways that they're abilities work to offset that infinite nature. A good example would be garen who trades not having a secondary resource to have generally weaker abilities with very little utility or mobility. Alternatively you have energy based champs like Zed and Kennen who have lower power but more spammable abilities, where energy simply exists as a way to have a limit to how much you can spam them. The problem isn't that there are champs without mana, but rather that modern champ designers have forgotten the fact that not having mana means that your abilities shouldn't be as strong.
@@Absolute_Zero7 no mana/energy/health cost. Low cooldown. Pretty busted, especially when you stack cooldown reduction items.
One big caveat with your analysis is that it doesn't take into consideration itemization between the two games. In League, items are meant to enhance what your champion can already do and very few items will give you the degree of utility that can warp kits like they do in dota. In dota, heroes are already very strong in their niches and items with their extremely strong active abilities are instead purchased to shore up against your weaknesses.
If we take Dota for example: you mentioned that Nature's Prophet, like Akshan, is very squishy. However, Akshan has escape tools and Prophet does not. This is why Shadow Blade (active ability grants 10+ seconds of invisibility) is a common purchase on Nature's Prophet because it gives him an engage/escape tool. Similarly, Prophet does not have his own CC and is very susceptible to retaliation from enemy supports, so he often buys Orchid (active ability silences a target for 4 seconds). This makes dota an arms-race on what items the enemy is purchasing and when those items are coming online.
If we take League for example: an ADC is supposed to be high DPS, immobile, and squishy, making them a high priority target that is vulnerable and requires protection from the team's support. Certain ADC items can help with survivability, but they are nowhere near the same degree that items in Dota (e.g. BKB, Satanic) will drastically change the survivability of the ADC.
This also explains why roles in League are so homogenous compared to dota and why even though dota's kits feel like stronger hard counters to other champions, there is far more counterplay from itemization that doesn't exist in League. In League there is always the potential for outplay because everything is based on skillshots. But if the players are of equal skill level, hard counters can feel even more oppressive than in dota due to a lack of itemization options.
Yeah, dota items allow you to solve almost any problem you need to deal with. Like sure you could counterpick heroes, but failing that there are items to deal with problems.
True. You can counter a lot of enemy kit by buying items, or circumvent the hero's weakness with an item.
Like for example, if you kept getting blown up by enemy burst U can buy Aeon disk or euls. Or if you cant really fight against the enemy autoattacker then buying a halberd or butterfly can be useful.
@@andrewgreeb916but that would still leads to the question of "If get that items" because as far as I know good players will abuse the lack of utility on your hero, as long as they can delay the item u need it will slow down the process, lets take AM or Drow for example AM dont have the utility to insta kill an enemy thats why he has to farm almost 13 mins to 30 but within that time range if the enemy keeps abusing you u diff wont make it on time and even if you get the item needed it become irrelevant that it render AM useless, drow needs escape tools so she can reposition but those items are far too expensive and one jump on her and she's dead meat. Items can give you the utilities you need for your hero but if you cant make it in time for your power spike might as well just quit.
@@ircisaldaba9865 yeah, just because an item can solve a problem doesn't mean you have farm, time to farm, or item slots for it.
Delaying enemy core items helps, as does forcing poor itemization, most carries perform much better if they don't have to go bkb first item.
@@ircisaldaba9865 Which is precisely the reason that valve changed the gold and exp calibration of the game several patches ago. They made it so that greedy players who are ahead and overcommit get punished hard the higher their net worth becomes.
Also, players have become smarter since they know that the enemy will want to delay the carry's items. The meta strats today are centered around making space for the carry to farm while 3-4 players on the team go around fighting once 2 of the other cores get their power spikes
As a Dota player, i find it funny that 2/3 of the heroes you chose, Marcy and dawn, are some of the most “league-esque” heroes we’ve had recently. I don’t think you’re wrong at all though; a lot of Dota heroes, especially the older ones, have a clear design and abilities that all feed into that design, whereas it seems like league heroes get tons of bonuses added just to seem “new”. Dota has been going down that path a bit recently, but we get heroes so slowly you don’t really realize it
To be fair ever since aghamin's shard every dota hero moved a step closer to the league philosophy.
@@andrewgreeb916true bro, I still have nightmares of sleeping dart Riki
It is true. I talked to my friends once dawn and marci were released that these are league hero not dota.
@@andrewgreeb916not necessarily. The aghs shard is an investment or a reward for killing a tormentor, and even then, it's still random but a higher likelihood to drop on supports. It's meant to be a scaling item to buff skills
@@tybanosaurus every aghs shard ability was made with more of a league philosophy, that was what I was getting at.
Interesting that you didn't mention the rock paper scissors nature of dota. Spectre vs global heroes, AM vs INT carries, Zeus vs invis. Every hero has an absolute hard counter that, regardless of meta, completely wrecks them. That doesn't exist in league. Except for early iterations of Arc Warden... i still have nightmares about divine tp boots arc warden
And also the rock paper scissors nature of dota can be overturned by itemization, positioning, and team effort. Even if youre a zeus against an AM, buying a ghost scepter can let you get out or buy enough time for teammates to come help. Or if youre a sniper against a storm spirit who can zipzap to you during fights, by simply being more aware of when that mf shows himself, you can avoid getting zipzapped by waiting for them to show first.. and maybe also buying a bkb
@@tybanosaurus yhea, zues vs riki? Riki can just blink on zues then silence or bh against zues.
@@Vandalieu17 force staff is a thing. Also ghost scepter or bkb can counter that
@@tybanosaurusand then Riki buys shard and nullifier XD
@@Dayspring_Gaming and you buy bkb? I mean, it is cheaper than shard and nullifier. You can buy aeon, which counters nullifier. Rock paper scissor.
5:23 say this to a Yone that misses everything, but still runs you down with just autos under t2 turret and then recalls back with no consequences
this is never happening while not being like 2 levels up btw
Look at 12:23
@@sachi2935 One lvl up is enough
Same lvls? You both live albeit one or both of you at low HP
@@LunarEdge7you smell like a yone main, yone can do this 4 levels and 2 items down
@@IvanSantos-cl6mj where is the issue? He is ahead and hit every ability, this is the excpected result
since i played dota 2 for ten years, this is something i've found exceedingly frustrating about playing league for a couple months now. The game feels deterministic w/skillshots, whereas Dota actually feels like a skillful dance of checks, balances, and choices!
I think this is why I like Hwei so much as a champ in league - it's their diet version of Invoker. He's the only champ I play, has really neat tools, and is squishy/low mobility no matter what. That's good, that's balance - he feels like a champ that actually has built in weaknesses that I have to adjust to as a player
great video, subbed
Yeah, even now, DotA's heroes have innate weaknesses like Muerta having less mobility than Sniper!
I will say that League's newer champs like the ones mentioned in the video and the removal of things like Galeforce and Duskblade are a massive step in the right direction.
What weakness does Invoker have? Outside of mechanical skill of the player
@@vitaliitomas4057 Black King Bar. But also, the fact that Invoker is so mechanically difficult that he's only seen the scene of pro play a handful of times in spite of how "good" he is on paper.
A laughably bad early game!
High manacosts (especially early game) and long cooldowns mean he has to be very careful not to waste any spells.
And his escape tool, Ghost Walk, slows him early on when he has no Wex points, so he's very easily countered by dust and sentries.
@@vitaliitomas4057 like everyone has, counterpicks and counterbuilds
Tip for if your playing dota.
If dawn breaker is pick and you want to ruin her day pick nyx assasin.
She trys to ult in you just press e in her aura.
Thank me later.
Now if my duo could just stop banning him every game... (He plays Puck)
Hope you liked the vid!
@@Acex2ron if your friend is playing Puck make him gank the dawn when 6.
I take it he's mid.
Dawn has no chance of catching Puck and you can silence her q.
Also she can't escape with w and if I remember from my experience she will be stopped while traveling with it.
So she is completely fucked.
Unless she has won the lane really hard and can man fight with a ego saber.
Iam a Offlane player and what I hate most is her short amount of mana she has access to.
Maby if you a pro Chen.
Or a lion spammer.
Just drain her mana.
Can't cast spells she can do nothing.
Also her maxing e as a alternative sucks.
Have fun with this information that you might already know
What 2000 mmr counter idea is this? Dawn doesnt' care about a 1s stun on landing
You never played this match up?
She can't ult in when she is stunned.
She wil cast it and get stunned before she can get in.
@@qlcrane80191 iq and 1 mmr dumbass
As a person who has played both I think one of the reasons why League and Dota's balancing went different ways is simple. Dota and League wants to create a uniqueness in each character.
League basically went to route of "feels", by that I mean each hero has to have a different feel in order to feel unique so the solution to them is to add more stuff, coupled by the fact they go for the cool factor first of the champion before anything else, they make BS abominations and why sometimes even if two characters have the same ethos they come across as different i.e Yone and Yasuo and Sona and Seraphine.
Dota on the other hand uses presentation to make them unique. Since the release/port of the last original Dota hero Underlord, not one single hero looks and feels the same. Since then, they've added the following:
The Monkey King,
A fairy with dubious european accent,
A swashbuckling pangolin,
A Japanese Oni that uses hate and paint,
The God of War,
The 4th Spirit brother,
A Grandma with guns that rides a giant lizard,
Robin Hood but its a weasel,
The daughter of the sun (who is a thick dommy mommy),
Marci,
A literal dinosaur and
an undead vigilante with guns
With a Circus RIngmaster on the horizon.
Just by how different each new hero is, Valve is basically forced to invent kits that not only work for them but actually unique for them. Not one single hero in Dota gets repeated. Sure, roles have been filled by different heroes, but they are filled in various different ways. What also is happening now is that Dota is trying to give each hero a new identity via new spells for them via Aghanim's Scepter and Shard, like before Kunkka was just your typical buccaneer esque hero, now he is literally a water bender which not even a literal living water Morphling can't do.
This is why I love this game so much even if it is so toxic
Maybe it is bc valve only releases one hero per year and riot just introduces new champs unstop.
Wait who's the Robin Hood weasel? I'm a dota player but I didn't get the hero.
@@Lastofhiskind_ hoodwink a fking annoying hero she can pass through trees, keep chasing her and you will only suffer🤣
@@Vandalieu17 I love that weasel though, the look on the enemy carries face when you just keep plonking them all through the lane is just.....priceless.
I do feel like dota is a more balanced game in general. A big reason for that in my mind anyways is that there's many more things they can use to balance heroes. For example the farm speed thing with marci is much less of an issue. you don't need to maximize the number of jungle camps plus waves you can farm per minute in league you just farm your lane for the most part. On a more general note the selection of items in dota make it not only easier to make a balanced hero by making them pick and choose specific items over others it provides a clear avenue for people playing against that hero to counter it with things outside their champs base kit
Fun trivia.
all abilities from Marci have been rework slightly except her ult.
For instance her throw (q) used to stun instead of slow which made it verry strong in the early game.
And the way it worked with cast range items is just horrifing.
The nice thing is that Marci used to be viable in every role sadly with her forced e rework.
Where she could not use it without a team mate so her jungle farming became even More harder.
So now she is mostly only played as a suport.
One that can give continued life steal buff.
That in it's own right is much more op in the landing stage than the old version
not gonna lie i miss when you could jump using enemies. im fine not having a stun on her throw, but only being able to engage off of allies feels a bit clunky
@@seya8282 read marci shard
@@seya8282 tbh jumping of jungle creeps to farm them was the most clunky she ever felt for me.
@@seya8282 You can still jump to enemies using shard but it seems fair to lock that op mechanic with an item, also The best change they could have done was to switch the stun from dispose to rebound, I hated being tossed into tower and not be able to do shit since i was stunned
Marci on release is so cancer to play against. Don't matter if you're playing a ranged offlane or a tanky melee. That Q stun is the worst.
While league has some overloaded champs, Dota's approach with their item system is "Fuck it! Everyone can do it all"
You want to teleport? COOL!
You want to go invisible? Go for it!
You want to turn an enemy into a sheep? Here's your item pal.
League's champion's are built from concept then given a kit, dota builds a kit then a hero onto it.
Dota is about making a hero that mechanically does well, league is just shoving a concept in.
@@andrewgreeb916 also, dota's characters are less annoying to look at than league's.
Sorry you forget one key point: there's a huge difference between characters and items: you can always pick a character for free, but you have to work your way toward an item. Of course items virtually allow you to do almost all other heroes can do, but you'll have to fight for it. Oh your key item is X? Too bad, we are gonna no abuse your hero's weakness and make your life hell before you get it, or delay your item so bad that it becomes irrelevant once you get it. That's the dynamics of DotA. Getting an item in with the right timing takes more skill than clicking a char in the selection screen.
Items in Dota are more execution heavy in comparison to leagues mostly stat oriented.
Dota inventory is an extension of the skill bar if you will.
Like ES kit with and without dagger is significantly different
Also funny you showed monkey king when talking about dota balance.
GOD that hero was over tuned as fuck and littery was free mmr when he was picked
Those were the dark days...
Dang! the Jinju mastery that doesn't disappear once you pop it☠️🗿 u better not lane against him early game.
@@alberttolentino1004 well he still need to auto attack to get last hits. If he maxes it out that is.
Offlaners often have stuns or slows so mk sometimes needs to commit hit q to get the 4th hit of before it wears off.
If he still has q up when he gets the 4 stacks then you fucked up hard.
Where he can kill you with the increased damge or use it on the lane to get full health.
Also iam talking about his current version.
Back then he got full health just from auto attacking creeps when he got the stacks off.
@@acube771am I misremembering or did his Q just give him a stack too, so he could Q for his 4th stack and kill you that way?
What I'm not misremembering is that his Jingu attacks never ran out and he was guaranteed four hits with the massive, armor-ignoring lifesteals at any time.
@@SyRose901 yes his q also gave him a stack. Still does.
Trade of is.
You don't have q for 20 seconds.
So no high range crit or something to lifsteal the creep wave of with.
1 q hitting 20 people for instance would only consume 1 stack.
Dota heroes power is centred around items and how they interact with them.
League is centered in the champions and items provide dmg scalling and stats.
That's the main diference, so in league if you don't have items, you can't do anything at all, while in dota if you don't have items you still can have an impact in the game, spells dmg scale with lvs so supports buy utility items for example.
Items in dota are incredibly powerful, Silence, stuns, magic inmunity, invisibility, all cooldown reset, evasion, There are many many items that if you put just 1 of them in league you will completely break the game, in dota almost every hero has the potencial to become absolutely broken via items. That in my opinion is the big diference, so that's why league having overload kits is a problem but in dota if you have and overloaded kit it doesn't matter as much because the power comes from the items and what you choose to build game to game.
I'm pretty sure the main difference is that one dota champion is released like every year or so? Just more tme to balance stuff.
Yes. Part of the problem why they have a hard time balancing is because of how massive league's champion pool has gotten.
Yes and not give same abilities over and over to every hero. Dota heroes have unique skills. You keep masturbating on your league characters.
Wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that all dota heroes are completely free.
@@abhitejvelore I remember when league had a new champion every two weeks
that was total madness with new heroes intentionally made OP and were picked in every other game, recieving a massive nerf afterwards and being immediately replaced with a new OP shit
Hero*
For me its that Dota is firmly a team game, where more and more league seems like it just wants to give everyone an equal chance of being that matches single player protagonist.
the thing about overloading a kit is not on any specific ability that a character has, it's how the sheer number of them are overwhelming to think about, Akshan is not overloaded because he can revive dead allies, or because he can go invisible, or because he deals bonus damage on 3rd hits, or because his basic shoots twice giving speed if cancelled, or because he has a boomerang that extends on hitting enemies that give him movement speed when hit, but you can see how having all of them at once, specially when I only talked about 2 of his 4 abilities just here, can become overwhelming, it lacks a theme. He can't be the reviving champion because he does all this other stuff, he can't be the stealth champion because he does all that other stuff, he can't be a bonus speed champion because he does all this other stuff, and thus he end up becoming too much and nothing at all
With Akshan, pretty much every ability points to "Roaming midlaner" + "Snowbally assassin". He has the Q and double shot to shove waves. He has the movement speed and shield to survive lane. Then once he shoves the wave and is healthy, he roams with invisibility and mana regen (since you might be out of mana from shoving wave). The ult is a cherry on top to secure long-range kills. Oh yeah, he also gets bonus gold for certain kills.
This kind of kit works and can be balanced (think Galio or old Aurelion Sol). The problem is that they also gave the swing a reset and the ally revive, which covers the 2 largest weaknesses of the roaming mid laner / assassin roles: The E provides a teamfight escape tool and allows you to assassinate more than 1 target (Rengar/Zed can usually only kill 1 or 2). The revive allows post teamfight clean-up to actually swing the whole match (A Talon cleaning up post teamfight is just damage control, not turning a losing fight into a winning push).
I don't like this kind of no-lose design with Akshan and honestly it's boring to play as and against. Every game is the same exact game plan because all of the tools point to 1 successful playstyle.
I simply absolutely do not believe that these two videos are the first two videos you’ve ever made. Some of the best League content I’ve ever seen and you have
Thanks, I'm always just trying to make better content and stuff I'm proud of. Glad you liked the vid!
ok this is the second video of yours that got recomended to me, tough it was a one time thing when saw the first, but the consistency got me, +1 sub, keep up the great content!
I like your framework but I think it suffers from not considering the question: - how often do any of these champs/heroes actually win games and in what situations do they actually lose? I think that just looking at these kits at face value and not considering how they've existed in the broader meta just makes your point ring hollow because fundamentally you're only looking at what these kits do at face value and not considering a dozen other things.
For example, you claim literally no one can catch up to Akshan when... that's not true? Lee Sin, Vi, Malphite, Singed, Pyke, Ekko, and plenty of others I could name all have options to catch up with Akshan and lock him down. Some characters like Malzahar or Morde can just press R and end his existence outright despite having zero mobility whatsoever. This argument is goofy considering that Yone's mobility is super inconsistent outside of his ult insofar that he is very poor at chasing enemies if they can move faster than the mobility of what his tether can provide and after a certain point will snap him back, losing all the momentum he could get in a chase. And just a simple stun can stop him from being able to chase someone in many cases due to this limitation. This is not to say he doesn't have a lot of annoying failsafe options or isn't aggravating otherwise, but to imply he's better at chasing someone than goddamn Pyke, Kassadin, or Hecarim is hilarious. Like... what?
Akshan in competitive has a low pick rate and even in S12 when he was picked the most he had a below 50% win rate. In solo queue, while his win rate is decently good, he's still picked far less compared to more simple but conventional mainstays like Twisted Fate, Kassadin, and Syndra and there's plenty of reasons *I* could give towards that. But you don't seem to be interested in exploring this and instead are just looking at both games superficially. If Akshan has no counterplay, why is not more dominant in the meta and constantly picked? Your framing here comes off as disingenuous. This isn't me arguing Akshan is a bad champ or that I think his design is fine, but I think it's very misleading to act as if his presence is a dominant force in the game at all levels. I will note that K'Sante and Yone are more consistently successful, there are still things to consider about those two as well. While K'Sante has a VERY big LCS pick rate in S13, his win rate was still lower compared to other champs with comparable pick rates such as Vi, Jayce, Rell. and most notably Maokai.
Personally I agree with the notion of people putting too much stock on "overloaded" being "badly designed" but I don't think you really make a good case for what being overloaded actually adds to a character's design. Akshan's niche of having a revive passive is neat, but does he really need the passive shield or the resets? What does that add to his kit overall? It strikes me as just giving him a lot because they didn't want to give him anything directly powerful in the way someone like Varus or MF has but it's still very lame how much they gave him to compensate for that. You are right that powerful, overloaded kits can have a place in League, but what do certain individual aspects of any these champions actually have that make this aspect of their design interesting? You just argue that the concept has worth but don't bother to elaborate beyond some vague notion of "skill expression."
I also think you're not considering just how differently Dota and League work. If we're talking Dota, items and teamfighting work dramatically differently, not to mention how stats work, the difference in the laning meta, lvl progression, etc which you could have mentioned as making these heroes more interesting than the League champs you're comparing them too. Dota can be criticized for a number of reasons, but I think it's very limited to just compare the two without considering the universal mechanics and structure of both which play into a lot into how any given kit will function within it.
Personally I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You should be asking why people don't find these champions fun to play against and question if that's consistent at all levels of play rather than just assuming the best case scenario for all three of these champions is just the default. I could easily bring up games where Yone did fuck all and just fed like a bitch all game, which I would think counters your claim that he can "miss his ult and still do the most damage" when that's not always the case, obviously? The example you use of that clearly shows the Yone had the backing of his team and came in at a convenient chokepoint while being higher leveled than his opponent, implying he was already ahead to begin with. Would this have been successful had Yone been 3 levels behind his enemies?
I *DO* think Yone and K'Sante are very aggravating to play against for a variety of reasons but I think we should put that bias aside and be considerate of the grander scheme here. I hate fighting K'Sante, but it's not like I never have options to deal with him and as it would appear plenty of high level players know how to deal with him too. I'm all for saying DOTA 2 is a better game, but I think to do so would require a deeper dive into the core mechanics of both games rather than a very superficial comparison between its playable cast.
I agree
The problem with a lot of recent champ designs is that they just arent designed well
During the mid period of league riot explicitly designed heroes with counterpkay in mind
(even yasuo, as much as people complained about him, was better designed than most current champs imho)
Its also the designs overall that have gotten a lot lamer imo at some pointb, they dont strikeany kind of feel at all when i look at them, the same couns for league as a whole as of late
Oke rant is Over
I don’t play Dota but from how you explained it, items are a lot more important to a champion than in league where the abilities are more important. Items in league are more of a passive bonus for what the champion already does
Yes, definitely, as I said in my other comment:
a lot of the times when a hero comes in or out of meta, it might not be because the hero got changed, but because an item the hero likes to build in the currently popular playstyle gets changed. For example when Arcane Blink was introduced where it decreased cooldowns, increased debuff durations or decreased cast times (based on the patch), magical Shadow Fiend was an absolute menace and also super fun to play, they've changed the item to only decrease the blink cooldown and Shadow Fiend is now mostly played as a physical attack carry, even shifting him from mid as a popular role (he was literally the most iconic mid laner) into safe lane. Or when they reworked Bloodstone, it was originally bought for huge mana regen, but after a rework, it gave huge spell lifesteal, creating a meta with magic-dealing tanks, now that item doesn't even provide mana regen.
There is also a saying that says "League's items make your spells stronger, Dota's items give you a new spell". There are also incredibly important consumable items that take up an item slot like Dust of Appearance which reveals invis heroes in an area, almost all regen items being sharable, Smoke of Deceit which makes everyone around invisible and undetectable by detection, but break once you get close to an enemy or the new Lotuses which just heal you or an ally. Some items also might grief allies as they can be used on them, Force Staff pushes someone forward and bad use of it can cause death. In general, Dota's spells and items don't shy away from inconveniecing allies while giving them other positive effects.
The core difference between League and Dota is about CC and utility. League devs think that these mechanics are "anti-fun" which results in their game being all about reflexes and tankiness/damage.
Just take a look at Shadow Shaman and Lion from Dota and compare them to LoL supps.
i play both game and i can say in dota, heroes are more important. Most heroes in dota are unique and there's a big counterplay factor. Since dota's items are very powerful, instead of bonus, you need to carefully pick ur heroes and use items to cover up weakness or boost your power
League is for people with Adhd While Dota2 is for those with OCD
@@SirEggNog May I introduce you to Nature's Prophet players?
Your videos are higher production value than so many much bigger league youtubers, youll definitely get big bro
Thanks! But I don't like to compare (especially because mechanically, my skills leave much to be desired.) Glad you liked the vid!
I think balancing really fails when Maokai is repeatedly broken for several patches, everytime gets minor nerfs that slightly budge his winrate, then you check out Phreak has been climbing playing Maokai.
Keep these up man! They're really fun to watch
Yone, Yasuo and K'Sante feel like main characters in single player games.
Remember those single player games that gave you power ups through the story, and then you got a different ability kit in the multiplayer?
Yea, Yone, Yasuo and K'Sante did not lose their singleplayer power.
Bouncing between plat and emerald I personally never felt struggled vs akshan and K'sante. Sometimes would get hard punished by yones but it never tilts me. What I have a HUGE problem with are 1-dimensional champs like trynd, yi and malz they feel unfair to play vs. I could be far ahead than them but can still get punished by them and one small mistake and lane feels over.
Really? Cause I feel the opposite way. I feel like if you can shut down a statchecker and they have no way back in the game, they're useless. Like Trynd and Yi don't contribute anything besides damage, so if you just out statcheck them, you've rendered them useless.
With League's nonexistant and still ever diminishing focus on strategy, macro and buildcrafting, simple champs feel more like an obstacle than an opponent, because there is absolutely nothing stopping them from executing their gameplan as long as they don't decide to feed. Lots of foolproof champs that feel like you have to play around their entire kits rather than against a person because they have no chance of screwing up, even if they're not OP. It feels like they're playing a different game altogether, unfun
I dont agree with your take on "these champs are overloeaded and that's ok because they are hard to play AND master. A good player will be your nightmare but a shitty one will lose the game for their team" because that basically applies for all champs. If you're good with it, you're gonna be a problem for the other team, if you suck, you hinder your team. That's just how to game is goes.
But for overloaded champs, if EVERYONE is on the same skill level, there's gonna be a clear difference based on the champ and not the player. That's were the issue is.
>But you can counter or ban them.
Yeah well, that's in the best scenario where they are not the last pick and didn't ban their counter. And you shouldn't have to perma ban a champ because is broken. You should ban the champ that counters the champ you are gonna play. You are using a ban slot for a broken champ.
Also, fuck Yone. Fuck that champ.
I mean it's reason in dota a new character release people won't feel force to learn it we still see pa/drow/jugg used but in league playing some champs 3 years old can feel like u stabbing yourself
it was crazy when I seen yuumi release it was the biggest f u to soraka who was a healer yet this cat is a healer who becomes an item
@@tristancarter4324ah yes the four horsemen of pubs regardless of rank jugg/sniper/drow/pa
I've been saying this for a long time. Every time they introduce a new champion, they take inspiration from an old champion and just remove the weaknesses that the champion had.
Seraphine is the perfect example. Sona's passive makes her deal more damage with her AAs after using her abilities a few times. Seraphine casts her abilities twice and gets more AA damage AND range for them for doing the same thing.
Sona's Q buffs allies attacks and deals damage to two enemies. Seraphine has a skillshot that deals damage in an area, which is pretty hard to miss because of its big hitbox.
Sona can speed her allies up with E and heal them and shield with W. Seraphine does BOTH of these with her W (healing allies requires Seraphine to have a shield).
Seraphine's E is an AoE line skillshot, meaning she can slow multiple targets. Sona gets an AA from her E+passive that slows ONE enemy.
Sona's ult is a short but slightly wide, almost instant stun. Seraphine has a wider ultimate and it can travel further if allies are in its path, and it charms instead of stunning the enemy. I think the duration of both abilities are about the same. The only thing about Seraphine's ultimate that is worse is the short cast time.
We can all see why playing Seraphine is better than playing Sona. She has skillshots instead of seeking missiles. She has potential to deal more damage and get more crowd control. Seraphine doesn't have as good healing as Sona, but I think that Seraphine makes up for it in many other aspects of her kit.
I would go into why Yone is just Yasuo but sup'ed up, but you already know that too.
Both your videos have been interesting and fun. Subbed!
Ksante isnt the only champion that builds resists or hp to stack damage... A lot of tanks (the vast majority) have this mechanic Rammus, Malphite, Maokai, sett to name a few. And while I agree yone is overbearing the kit isn't complicated to understand from a gameplay perspective and the things that make him strong aren't what you highlighted.
That's true, and I would also mention Mundo, but the difference is that those champs have different scalings. If you wanted to do more damage on Malph or Maokai, you'd be building more AP, sacrificing tankiness. But K'sante's scalings from resistances are much higher in comparison to the point where you're effectively losing damage if you're not building tank items.
i once got deleted by sett W - 2.5k true dmg
@@Acex2ron dude what? all of the champions he listed scale off hp/resists to damage, or have level scaling guaranteed damage just like K'sante, including Malph and Maokai. They dont have to build AP or AD like you said. League has made tanks do damage man its part of their design philosophy on pretty much every tank, who all have damage dealing tank scaling items as core and most if not all of them also have max/current health damage built into their kit , and some with armor/magic resist scaling like rammus's passive damage scaling with armor
@@bo_rat Yeah but Malph isn't one-shotting anyone who isn't a squishy with his tank build and Maokai isn't exactly gonna top the damage charts with his saplings alone.
I'm saying that if you look at the tools that K'Sante has built into his kit, there are no opportunity costs-even compared to other tanks whose damage scales off armor.
For example, against an AP-heavy comp, Malphite and Rammus are just screwed because they gain nothing when building MR.
Same thing with Galio against AD-heavy comps.
K'sante's DPS scales off of every resistance he builds, meaning he really can build whatever tank item he wants and he will be played to his full effectiveness, while being able to itemize properly against the enemy team.
These videos are great! Started playing LoL very recently as that's where all my pals are. This is making me really wanna try Dota though
Game is very daunting at first but definitely give it a fair try I love it
great vid, on the topic of yone not having a mana bar to worry about, maybe you could do a vid on how dota 2 and league both approach mana and other resource bars?
It’s ironic, really. So many people see Dota as the “old school MOBA”, when in reality, Riot Games’ urge to one up themselves with every character release makes the other half of the roster feel like a relic from the past, while Valve still makes all their oldest, most rudimentary heroes feel fresh and full with updated kits
No, ksante’s problem isnt there is too much going for him. Its the fact he can build tank and his dmg scale off tank item….
and his q costs 20 mana on 3.5 sec cd
i agree with a lot of this, but think you missed something on the "overloaded kits have their place" part:
yes, a game with only garens and annies would be boring. but that's not because their kits are simple, it's because they don't offer you a lot of options, they're one dimensional.
let's take lee sin and aphelios as an example. both give their player lots of options on what they can do, making the game interesting.
the difference is that i could explain lee sin's kit in like four sentences, while aphelios' ability descriptions are longer than the average phd thesis.
the problem is that many, players and developers alike, keep confusing complexity with number of options. you can see this in lots of games, valorant and even smash bros have that problem too.
an ability that's explained in two sentences and gives you fifty options on how to use it is always a better design than an ability that takes several paragraphs to explain.
Exactly and i dont even think that aphelios gives you that many interesting choices for how much bloat he has in his kit
Whereas lee sin is very simple yet complex
Another banger. Suggestion for a video topic: compare team comp synergy and counterpicks in each game.
Dota can have more over the top kits due to mechanics not in league (turn speed for example) and the item shop.
Dotas item shop makes it so you can counter p much anything with the right build and enough gold.
League only has like zyonas, QSS, frozen heart, and some Sheid support items. Dota can have more over the top kits due to this while in league u can lose a game in Champ Select since all u can really buy is stats
Items also factor into this, since in dota there is an item to help counter almost anything, where as league items are mostly just meant to improve on what champions already did.
Also I think prophet is an odd example to use when talking about overloaded kits, at least when you define an overloaded kit as having a bunch of stuff in it. Prophet's abilities are all very simple, even with all the stuff that has been added to them recently, and he's always been more of a stat stick that abuses the absurd power of global mobility. Hell, outside of global teleport his abilities kinda suck, something that becomes very apparent in ability draft. Although it doesn't have the nice parallels with Akshan, I think Dark Willow would be a better example of a ranged hero with a ton of stuff packed into their kit who has obvious inescapable weaknesses that prevent her from being overpowered but is extremely strong in the hands of a specialist.
And don't forget about the biggest oversight of Dark Willow
Being untargetable sure does make it hard to do anything about dark willow... till it runs out and we dogpile her.
Gods she was overloaded to hell but BKB was a literal death sentence for her. Not sure if it still does this, but when I mained her, if you shadow realmed with aghs and your target BKB'd, you couldn't even target them for basic attacks. Good luck doing anything else when 100% of your kit is magic.
@@atbauchat i think you can target bkb'd heros now ever since the spell immunity changes. I don't think the bonus damage from her W pierces bkb though.
Funny thing actually, as dota players really dont like dawnbreaker because she feels like character from LoL and doesnt really belong here. Just as Marci`s kit, people hated that
nah, we offlaners love her, she's fun and reliable
I like the video and you do a great job at showing the differences of itemizing and design differences between games, but the role and playstyle of the characters being compared is similar to comparing zuccini to pumpkins. A good comparison might be shen to dawnbreaker both are tanks with global teleports, yone and ember spirit are very agile carries that rely on not being caught out with powerful escape tools, and axe and k'sante are both tanky bruisers that get stronger with armor.
You make a good case! Though honestly, even those comparisons have their counterarguments. Shen is a tank meant to enable his team, but Dawn is meant to deal some damage too. Yone, when played as a midlaner, is still a farming scaler whereas Ember becomes a lot more active early on (at least if going the Maelstrom+BoTs build). Axe is an initiator, whereas K'sante's engage is doodoo because of his Q3 requirement and predictable gameplan. I think it just shows that if you really take a look at how these games are played, LoL and DotA are so fundamentally different--and it's fun to discuss them! That's why I make these videos, after all. Glad you liked the vid!
We missed the easiest comparison possible. Drow Ranger and Ashe. They stem from the same origin and could be a good way to show how each game has evolved over time to where they are now and how their kits have been adjusted to fit those changes.
Good video bro. Can you make a video on Jungling differences between Dota and LoL?
Doing crazy things isn't what make the champions overloaded. Akshan revive mechanic is cool, but does he really needed both the auto second hit and the 3 hit combo? I think small things should be taken out (and the power added to the rest of the kit) making the champions more concise and cohesive.
He has worse base stats to make up for it, his autos tickle without the passive unless he's fed
That would make him boring and bland. Passive and hook are what makes the champ fun, and the passive makes up for having the worst ult in the game
im going to be honest. dota 2 examples dont look that op or frustrating.
Most of them are low mobilty anyway and they have to buy high cost item to have it. Compare to lol where more than 50% of champ have dash...
Because the DOTA Champs can just be countered with items, if a Marci and Dawnbreaker are doing too much damage to you, you can either make them stop by buying a heavens halberd that'll stop them from attacking for like 2 seconds, or just buy a blademail that'll reflect the damage they do on you
IT drives me crazy on 11:37 u can see invoker and his icon, but it looks kinda weird goblinish, does anybody know why that is?
Dota has these things called "Hero Personas" which are like League's skins but they go a step further, completely reimagining heroes. Invoker has one where he becomes "Kidvoker" which is what you're seeing in that clip.
Bruh that's his persona skin 😂 yeah he looks kinda goblinish until you look at him closely. You haven't seen kid invoker skin ig.
You're one of the most underrated channels on yt. As someone who has played both league and dota its good to see a new unbiased perspective. I subbed
2:25 its so funny knowing how poorly the yone played that fight and still managed to kill his opponent...
Hey man I just needed some Yone footage 💀💀💀 Hope you liked the vid tho!
The idea of forcing a champion to be "weak" with low damage numbers or low win-rate, is aburdly dumb to me, in this case two negatives don't make a positive, because in every game possibe it is guarantee for one team to be frustated out of their minds with that player using k'sante, yone, akhshan, etc.
Imagine how fun it is for a game to be decided because a moron picked a champion that either carries or sinks their team.
The worst part about yone is that your opponent can miss everything, be on your face and he will still win the fight by auto attacking or just dip without consequences
I think one detail to add about global presence, it's that with teleport scrolls every hero in Dota can teleport to any allied building (and with a specific boot, any allied unit) so skills that gives hero global presence are relatively deflated in comparison to League.
And marci isn't that overloaded, basher as an item has a cooldown in how often it can proc and her ulti can only release six attacks in a flurry after which she waits phasing out from combat as a useless paper until her ult is up again, she's quite weak as a core overall
Now a bullshit hero is Arc Warden, snowballs too hard into unbeatable, he's an immobile turret who's weak as hell early on but he shares the 3 LoL champions you mentioned design mistake of God forbid you make a mistake against this hero during laning he snowballs to unbeatable
Also, Dota have a lot more overloaded kits that LoL, which reduce the feeling of being against a broken character
The problem with more recent champs is that they want every new champ to do literally everything possible at once. The last time we had a simplistic champ with basic systems was probably Vex catered around building up her fear charge on passive.
Naafiri, Briar and (arguably) Renata are simplistic.
This is only my take. I think the harder/overloaded the champion in league is, the harder it is to master and that’s when a good player is rewarded. When he mastered the champion so complex, he will be rewarded with wins because the overloadedness comes with high mechanical outplays. If you watch pro play in leagues, these champions you mentioned are easily shutdown if not played properly. That’s why korean/chinese teams get away with wins from k’sante because they’re so good with the champion. And mind you, yone and akshan are not being played (or minimal appearance) in pro play today because again they are easily get countered.
Really great video. I might add that in Dota, a lot of the times when a hero comes in or out of meta, it might not be because the hero got changed, but because an item the hero likes to build in the currently popular playstyle gets changed. For example when Arcane Blink was introduced where it decreased cooldowns, increased debuff durations or decreased cast times (based on the patch), magical Shadow Fiend was an absolute menace and also super fun to play, they've changed the item to only decrease the blink cooldown and Shadow Fiend is now mostly played as a physical attack carry, even shifting him from mid as a popular role (he was literally the most iconic mid laner) into safe lane. Or when they reworked Bloodstone, it was originally bought for huge mana regen, but after a rework, it gave huge spell lifesteal, creating a meta with magic-dealing tanks, now that item doesn't even provide mana regen.
Also, Dawnbreaker is one of my most played heroes and I feel her spell kit actually super simple compared to so many other heroes.
One of the beauties of Dota is that it’s ever-changing, evidenced best with the OD who must have been through three or four different identities in the past decade!
@@Acex2ron Remember how many Riki or Clinkz reworks there were?
Akshan revive has got to be the most broken thing in league by an absolutely massive margin. Theres nothing else even remotely similar in the whole game and that in itself should be evidence enough. A ranged assassin can revive teammates by killing enemies? Hello? I don't have even the slightest idea how someone looked at that and then said " make the kill give him 100 extra gold too" and actually put it in the game
i remember losing matches where we killed 4 of his teammates but they immediately got revived because he killed our carry who killed them. the revive thing is so out of touch with his kit. he could still do well without it.
it's so unnecessary
what about veigar able to infinitely stack his ap from level 1 just by hitting spells on u , by min 10 safe farming he already got like 500+ ap and is able to 1 shot anyone
Lol, well said
The hardest thing about both games is that.
The league dev’s design philosophy is that they allow harder champs to be inherently stronger, while making easy champs inherently weaker in terms of their kit.
Yes I know the fact that garen has been, and just recently was meta.
But it doesn’t discount the fact that he has a lot of weaknesses that you can work around mechanically and strategically.
Meanwhile ksante when played perfectly has ZERO counterplay.
I get that he has a high learning curve, but that does not justify the fact that a perfect ksante player can always win against another player playing a diff champ perfectly. I get that he has lane counters, but that does not make him balanced, as he can still be the most tankiest champ in the game while also obliterating your adc with ZERO counterplay if they don’t have summs.
You have to position so far that your dps will be naturally hampered, while the enemies adc wont get bothered.
In Dota every character has a counter.
It has a stable balance where whenever an item/hero is meta, their counters immediately become viable and usable.
You cannot one trick dota effectively and every character has clear strengths and weaknesses.
I will say that primal beast exist and is inherently overtuned.
But when you look at the rest of the cast, there is counterplay.
If not in hero’s then in the item shop.
Just because I picked invoker/meepo (the hardest and one of the most rewarding hero’s to master.) does not mean I get to kill you without counterplay. Yes the two champs are built to be a little more effective than others, but that does not give them the right to be the most unkillable + one of the most damaging characters in the map.
It is a inherent d
They are not, meepo is litteraly a cheese hero, the only reason he is less last picked nowadays is because of aghs shard and disperser brokeback combo
@@quentinlelievre276 that’s the point
Meepo if piloted well (and when there is no counter) dominates.
If it’s a good meepo game, he can dominate more than others could at their best.
Reminds me of Heroes of the Storm. Some heroes used to be super specialized, like Greymane who had some of the highest single-target AA damage, but had zero self heal, which a lot of melee often get, a frustrating downside that justified his high damage.
Man i cant agree that dota has heroes with "overloaded kits" cause as you said, they have clear weaknessess, the problem with league is that it became a soulless skin cash grab excuse of a game over the years, it lost all its passion. Just look at my boy K'sante, he is really a strange fellow, almost looks like he doesnt even belong to the universe of the game, to me personally he looks like a fanfic version of the Chad guy meme, and not only that, he is also "simply" the ENTIRE TEAM in a single character: he tanks, deals damage, heals, dashes, stuns, cancels crowd control, shields himself and allies etc, he is the summary of what league has become, a game of selfishness, the whole "team" part of the game just exists to boost your ego when you repeteadly try to "carry", never communicating, never even trying to play together, fuck the game doesnt even has a voice chat, its just you, the most selfish character available and the silence of playing a team game like you are pretending to be a god to people that dont even know you, thats why they have overloaded kits in league, because the game feeds off the money of selfish people. DotA is nothing like that man, there are no overloaded kits, there is no focus on selfishness, cause if that were the focus heroes would NOT have CLEAR weaknessess. In EVERY match of DotA, if you simply ignore your team like you would in league, the game WILL punish that behavior with a loss, no matter how "mechanically good" you are. Also those characters like K'sante and Yone are not even that hard, they are just stupid, you dont need to worry about their mechanics until you reach master elo or something
I mean if we're gonna compare the two, I still think Dota has overloaded kits in the heroes I mentioned plus a few more. Like Dawn just has so much going on, and compare that to Pudge who has barely seen any changes in recent years (outside of his Flesh Heap), she definitely feels like she has a lot in her base kit.
But they don't "feel" overloaded because of how they have clear and exploitable weaknesses. And that's why I like the way Icefrog balances and makes heroes.
I'd agree with this. League can be played without VC but dota cannot.
Definitely this. This is the main reason why League has one of the most toxic community because it appeals to the selfish egotistical assholes for addictive power fantasy
@@Acex2ron pudge feels kinda similar to "hook" champs. Blitz overall might be a shit champ, but that hook is an everpresent threat that will outscale anything. 40mins in and you get hit with a blitz hook or pudge hook, ur dead.
League has absolutely bevome soulless, couldnt have said it better myself
Unfortunately most
People dont care about the quality of the game
Best champion designs is still in heroes of the storm hands down.
Abathur and cho gall is still my favorite HotS design.
really sad that HotS didnt get much popularity it had much potentional
@@whitedarkness97 It was a MOBA for the casual players, and that doesn't bring as much revenue as a hyper esport game. Also skins only came in events and max 5 per. The ingame purchases were too slow to keep up profit
@@DylanGosseye i remember playing the alpha i , was super hyped
@@DylanGosseye 70-80% of LoL players have never even played ranked and couldn't care less about the esport aspect, those are the players that bring the majority of the revenue. The main issue with HOTS was the replay value, with shared XP, no need to farm and no items to buy the game became "solved" and stale extremely quickly. I had a lot of fun in HOTS and it had some great character designs, but after a month of playing I got bored of seeing the same things over and over again with close to no variety.
5:35: OMFG I have been saying this since I have been part of the community and kept saying it until I left it. It feels so good to also hear others acknowledge this. Props to you. Its so satisfying to hear nuanced and well thought through takes in the lol community... And its an absolute rarity unfortunately.
League barely has any new players... can't imagine why. It's such a anti-new player game. You will have easier time to be in med school then learning League.
dota is also a nightmare to learn because of 1000000 different mechanics and considerations to make in every game, let alone learning all the 1 v 1 and 2 v 2 matchups
A more balanced game doesn't equal more fun, look at smash melee, half of the cast is unplayable and it's the most played and competitive smash game. I personally love being discusting in league of legends and the rush you get from outplaying opponents with ''overloaded kits'' is like no other. I find it much more fun to have to outplay my opponent with skill, mindgames and predictions rather than just buying an item to counter my opponent. I don't want league to be dota and I don't want dota to be league, I'd rather have the option of what kind of game I wanna play instead of chasing an idea of perfection that doesn't exist.
wait, bad ksante would make his team lose? what does it mean? any bad player can make you lose a game
Yeah, League spells definitely sound overloaded. Ironic since League was designed to be a simplified version of DotA at one point.
Also, why does League look like a cheap mobile game.
I really liked the channel idea of comparing and talk about 2 different, yet simmilar worlds. Nice job.
Nice analysis! I will add that Akshan has SOME clear exploitable weaknesses, such as his grapple swing requiring terrain to use, meaning there are tough spots in the jungle where you really can't move far. The grapple is also stopped if you come into contact with an enemy, so any champion with enough mobility to stay near Akshan has a chance to prevent his dash. Lastly, his ultimate is really the weakest part of his kit. Despite dealing decent damage, it can be blocked by minions, other champs, and even towers.
The revive on W really is just silly and game-breaking since late game death timers can be upwards of 90 seconds.
As far as Yone goes, yeah, there is no counterplay. People used to hate Yasuo until they designed the Yasuo that doesn't need minions to go in, a free unstoppable escape, doesn't need a knock-up to ult, and lastly deals half magic/true damage, covering one of AD mid-laners largest weaknesses. It is pretty transparent how it is just a better version of Yasuo, or a version of Yasuo without the weaknesses. The only real trade-off is the lack of wind wall. I feel Yone could be balanced if they actually required players to hit Q's (nerf base AD and crit damage, buff Q damage) and removed the movement speed on his E (why does he have that? He already has 3 dashes. If you are struggling to run people down in this window, you just didn't even plan on going in).
Hwei might not have a dash, but that fear that comes out almost instantly, has a wide hitbox and lasts for a good amount of time gives him more than enough safety.
Modern Nature's Prophet is a baffling design, the weirdest thing to me is that he wasn't always like this. Marci has always sort of been a "favourite child" kind of hero that had 4 overloaded skills that did 4 incredibly strong things each, just a hero made of privileges, but NP's skills were quite focused in their purpose until not even that long ago.
I think the armour on teleportation is when I first really thought about how overly complicated some kits were becoming. 100 attack damage for free, as basically a side effect for teleporting, is already an absolute truckload for a character built around picking his own battles, but no, he also has to get armour for using that damage, he gets an undeserved boon for utilizing a different undeserved boon of his ability. The armour doesn't even end up doing anything 90% of the time because you're not going to teleport next to guy that can realistically manfight you, you're going to TP on top of a schmuck that's half HP, sprout their asses and hit them 4 times before they get the opportunity to fight back. The 4 armour in that scenario are basically just for funzies, and it's such a minor and delayed effect it is hardly even worth considering. You could remove it tomorrow and I'm not sure half the people playing this joker would even notice. Wacky-ass skill.
The internal buff names for the damage and armour component make me think they were originally going to give him a new skill, couldn't find a slot for it and just taped what they had onto the teleport instead.
Yone is a bit easier to deal with than people think. He tethers himself to a spot when dashing, which makes him easier to chase because you know the exact location that he dashes back to
Pretty L take on akshan imo, outside of release I only really see him being played by otps. His funny black jesus revive is strong, but his overloaded passive and the gold bounty he gets is far stronger imo. Akshan has an overloaded kit, but the argument "he is an assassin that can burst someone and escape out" is limited to him being fed, angling his E correctly, and most assassins are able to do the same when fed because they can burst someone while reserving a dash for escape or can naturally escape anyways. Akshan is very very dependent on getting ahead if not his only game plan is to pick random squishies at side lanes.
What I don't like is akshan being put into the same light as k'sante and yone, and even saying he's stronger than both them is really biased. I have gotten my ass whopped by akshans and also seeing my team's akshan completely take over, but like once every 3 months or so. k'sante and yone are completely rampant in almost every game and take over games like 100 times more often, even when the player isn't necessarily experienced at the champion.
The insane powercreep in dota is recent. The every character do everything thing is going too far. Remeber that dota has items to cover weaknesses too.
Love and blessings!
you forgot the credit the Australia theme from civ6 in your description btw
"Swoop in, get the kill, swoop out, rinse repeat"
Reminds me of pre-rework tristana built for AP
It's wrong to say that Yone's q is stronger because the first 2 activations don't have a dash or knockup. Also, his q scaling with attack speed INSTEAD of CDR means he can't build the powerful bruiser items to increase it's power; he has to build weaker items.
Also punishing assassins AFTER they score a kill isn't how league wants assassins to work. They are explicitly designed to have escape tools instead of tankiness. You punish assassins by preventing the kill, which usually stops their survival ability.
I've mostly played League, but the way you described Marci makes it sound like she's a damage only character who's entire damage is locked behind her ultimate... Making her K'Sante but not allowed to build tank. That to me doesn't sound like good character design. If the only thing she can do is deal damage, but is only allowed to do so when her ultimate is up, that's too big of a weakness imo.
As for Akshan (as I'm an Akshan main it's the only champ I can really speak on here), he has a very clearly defined weakness: Point and click cc. If you put him up against a Nautilus, Twisted Fate, Jax, Nasus and many more he's completely useless. In games like that your only choice is to let your team die and hope you can get a revive after the teamfight. The counterplay in League, which fair enough if you dislike, is mostly in drafting.
I'd love to get input on this though if anyone disagrees.
You've just highlighted a reason why Marci, in her current iteration, is primarily played as a support! At the moment, she's played around her E which is pretty much a free item for your carry. She can also save using her flip and give a buff and engage using her dash-hop. Her kit has a lot of built-in utility, but also she becomes a major damage threat when popping her ult.
Tho for Akshan, I agree that point and click CC was the bane of my existence when playing him for footage (or maybe it's just because TF is busted out of his goddamn mind right now), but I feel like point and click CC just straight up counters everyone except Tanks.
If you look at her as an adc damage dealer, shes underpowered. But if you look at her as a support damage dealer, shes very strong. You dont need much damage items to outduel other carries as a support marci.
Currently, marci is played as a support for buff and cc. But, eventually she can build basher and does some damage.
@@Acex2ron She definitely sounds like interesting character design. Must suck for Marci mains though, when your hero goes from carry to support.
There's actually quite a few champs that can deal with point and click cc. It often feels like playing rock paper scissors in champ select though.
@@juohan That's pretty much the state of every League support currently lol
13:45 "giving assassins get out of jail free card is unfair" Akali , Zed, Talon, Katarina(what class even is kata now), and so many others im probably forgetting because nowadays almost every champ in league is an assassin lol...
I think akshan is a realy fair spot right now. He has access to a lot of stuff but a lot of conditions to his kit to work perfectly.
If you want to use the second shot you will stay still and can't kite, if you kite you don't get the movespeed and will take longer to use the 3hit damage. His boomerang is great but sometimes you will get 1 or 2 only, is more of an helper to proc his passive,his ultimate is fair and his hookshot is very situational and skillgaped. About his invisible ability in the end of the day only this is more useful. You get bonuses to follow the marked enemy, but what if the marked one is a Zed? Only the revival is the bullshit for real.
Heard Riot got rid of the Smolder creator so let's hope they are on the right path :)
god your vids are amazing dude keep it up
They just release champions with built-in tools to overcome their natural weaknesses, then pretends it's the community's fault for not figuring out how to counter those champs, then hard nerfs this champs, then act as if everything was good from the get go.
In my opinion figuring out how to play a champion should not have to be obvious but in a game with 150+ champs, counterplay should be obvious and weaknesses should show easily.
What i really really hate from riot, is that they remove aatrox resurrection and then put akshan as a revival, i mean broo if you want to remove a feature you better remove it all of it
They also removed percent true damage from ksante and later released smolder, who has percent true damage lol
I just whink that the correct design solution would be something like akshan's passive, where you either get the double auto, or the movement speed, but, add to it something like lucian's passive where the double auto deals massively reduced damage. and do the same for yone and ksante, where, you have to choose, to use your ability one way or the other depending on the situation, something like....Idk, making ksante self stun for longer, or making one of their abilities not avaiable while in their "charged" form while holding Q3, (like, chogath Q cast timer), that or just make their kits so that whenever yone goes into spirit form his W doesn't shield so that way you can't just E +auto + W+ Q3 enemy under turret while taking no damage cuz you're shielded + enemy is airborne so they can't really react. that's atleast the design philosophyt I'd use, like, you either choose to commit to one of the sides of your kit or the other.
Furion had a lot more armor in older patchs, so they kinda replaced the high armor with that armor buff
playing both games, i love a very insightful comparisom!,, keep it up
I feel like it's worth noting an example of a Dota hero whose kit I consider unhealthily overloaded: Pangolier
With a dash-into-quadruple-hit (in an aoe), a jump which applies a slow and gave him damage resistance, a passive chance to disarm and armor-shred an enemy, and an ultimate that's basically a Sion ult that doesn't stop on hitting a hero or wall, the only thing holding him back was a weak laning stage - but even then, with a kit like that, he really never needed that much money to pull guaranteed value out of his kit. Even just a Blink Dagger is enough to make his ult the perfect engage tool, and any on-hit effect would make his Q do wildly high damage. If the game goes late, his kit represents a set of very powerful (and safe) farming tools, letting him catch up in scaling.
Every component of his kit, save for the ult, has been reworked and generally nerfed since release - one less hit on the Q, a shield instead of DR on the W, and an attack slow instead of disarm on the E, but I'm worried that he's never really going to find a balanced place in the game. Pros keep picking him, because a mobile damage-dealing tanky engage engine just innately does too much even if he has too little.
"yone can whiff his ult" my brother, yone can whiff all his abilties and aa u to death
League suffers from developers who only think about how fun a champion is to play rather than how fun it is to play against. Go watch any Riot august video on characters he’s designed and it’s usually a process like this.
1. Design champion with lots of fun features
2. Champion is released and people are having a lot of fun playing the character.
3. Half of the community is calling for the champ to be removed, reworked, or nerfed because it’s not fun to play against.
4. Riot has a cycle of nerfs and buffs as they can’t balance out their champs who weren’t designed with how to play against them in mind
Rinse and repeat step 4 ad nauseam until the character is dead and needs to be reworked. In which case you restart the cycle at step 1 while releasing $100 skin bundles for them.
sir, i'd like to thank you for making me interested in dota. sadly i'm not currently capable playing it, but in the future where i can do it, i shall scream your name in honour on my first few matches.
League champions, and this does apply to even really simple and old champions, sometimes only have one weakness that is time, K'sante has the weakest laning phase of toplane; yone, pantheon (according to the top 1 pantheon player), gangplank and akshan are strong early game and late game but have hard times during mid game (1-2 items and for some 1-3 itens)
Then why these champions are hated while champions like lee sin and kassadin that are two types of demons in their time frames are widely love? The issue arises from 2 things:
These hated champions have timed moments of weakness, not strengh. Having a kassadin absolutely shred through your team is much less painful than a yone because you feel like you had a window to act, and they had the skill to minimize their weaknesses and maximize their strenghts, while yone is a unstoppable force of nature unless in a specific time frame feels like shit. Outside of a few "WTF?" reactions, I have never seen someone say it is broken that Kayle, THE lvl 16 late game monster, have a lvl 1 stronger than 90% of toplane because it's a quick burst of strenght that requires mastery and deep knowledge while only aliviating slightly her weakness, while yone gets alot of hate because even if you survive his laning phase, now you have to cook something against a below average fighter before he becomes the main character AGAIN.
The second thing is complex, counter intuitive time use, the best example of this is the zeri lulu vs lucian nami botlane that only pro players like (the supports are the ones that have the most sinergy with the adcs, it is pointless to say if any other support changes the powerlevel in the zeri vs lucian matchup because having lulu and nami will counter and empower in much more situations and therefore it's optimal, and it's only a example): Zeri, a hypercarry and problem child for the balancing team, theoretically wins level 1 and 2, then lucian, a champion with percieved oppressive laning phase, wins levels 3-5, then zeri wins level 6 up until before lucian's first item, then it's lucian again until zeri's 3 itens; the point is that it's ultra counter intuitive and you can only figure it out by specifically searching about it or loosing against it a few times. Tanks normally have bad early game, a great mid game and a late game dependant on their unvaluable engage potential, K'sante gets strong at level 6, in the middle of the early game and just stays strong because he can transform into a assassin, a class with a totally different time relationship, at will which confuses a lot of players.
The problem isn't having a lot of shit in your kit, Udyr has 4 stances and ults that do different things, gnar, jayce, nidalee and elise have 2 forms with a lot of useful and powerful tools, aphelios has 5 guns, a different UI, a unique combo system and tooltip but these characters do have their place in league of legends because they avoid these two problems with the extra stuff serving as a nice mechanic that covers a combo of strenghts leaving easy to understand and act upon weaknesses.
Fun fact: When Dawnbreaker was introduced in dota 2, alot of players were complaining how they were straight up copying lol and how her design is very lazy, patch after patch complains still come. After a certain patch, they made her thicc and the complains kinda stopped