Tel'aran'rhiod, The Unseen World! A Wheel of Time Deep Dive!
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- What is Tel'aran'rhiod? What are the rules? And what answers did Robert Jordan give to all of the questions fans have had over the years about channeling, physical matter, Heroes, and more? Join my guests as we take a deep dive into all things T'A'R and The Wheel of Time!
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Zuul, Good Friend of the WoT Discord Community
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![The battle in Tel'aran'rhiod ANIMATED [Wheel of Time]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3kjFmUHuZv8/mqdefault.jpg)
Starts at 2:37!
The costume designers better have a field day with Tel'aran'rhiod. It'll be an opportunity for a costume change every few seconds.
Elayn studied making the seanchean adam collar and Nynaeve mentioned she doesnt like it but perhaps learned how to make it anyway. That was the reason why she was able to make the collar to capture moghedien. I think you're only able to make something powerful like that if you understand how to make it ---- same thing goes to other powerful stuff like the Oath rod. If youre able to make it IRL then u can will it in TAR.
Perrin couldn’t heal himself in memory of light. Slayer said, “it doesn’t work like that.” He had to imagine his wounds wrapped
When Birgette comes back to the world of dreams after each of her lives, she does not just find a silver bow and arrows, there’s no way. They must be a part of who she is intrinsically, which is why they can exit with her, but I imagine if nynaeve had brought one and Birgette had stayed, the arrow would have disappeared.
The conversation about pregnancy in TAR would interest Aginor, I feel.
With the fish bites, Rand believed he was injured by the fish and that belief didn't go away after he balefires Ravin so the injuries remained.
LOL
Matt 'Zuul now im going to break your brain' asks question
Zuul, immediately breaks Matt's brain with her response
Matt, long pause, slight ramble 'oh wow'
Souls do not enter physical form until birth. Brigitte being reborn is that mechanism, so would apply to all souls being born.
I usually try to avoid saying Tel'aran'rhiod out loud. When I first read the books I read the last part as "roid" like steroid.
I'm an audiobook listener so I never read the word, my eyes just glaze over it
I was reading the live comments and there was some special comments/theories you didn't notice. For Birgitte, she's a hero of the horn, the rules somehow give them the possibility to come to the waking world with their full gear so maybe what Moghedien did is similar to what the horn does thus explaining the arrow.
Maybe she's just proven herself a hero again and is a new hero of the horn when Olver blows it, but since she was an old hero we assumed it was her old self. Maybe she'll now be presented as she was in this age
BIRGITTE stopped Perrin from entering the Tower of Genji in the world of Dreams
When I was first reading it, the name was long so I landed in my head on calling it “tellenrod”, though I did know that was incorrect
I didn't realize Hopper soul was infused into Perrin's weapon when he created it. I didn't even see his soul in the fire on the art cover while he was hammering I am like how did I miss that.
Dana Lou laid down the challenge "figure out how it works". I know better than to disobey Zuul, so here goes...
EVERYTHING AFTER THIS IS SPOILERY AF
Ishy, Lanfear and Mogs are considered the best of the Forsaken in T'A'R and so it stands to reason that Ishy is very, very good. Perhaps Ishy is even comparable in power there to Moggy whom did the whole Brigette thing, so essentially top tier.
With that in mind I believe anyone with that level of expertise in T'A'R could theoretically create a lasting, some-what sentient impression in the World Of Dreams.
How?
Nightmares! Even those untrained in T'A'R can leave behind their nightmares, and as we see in Perrin's training montage these nightmares are able to adapt and fit Dreamers into their scenarios.
Based on this I think it is reasonable that someone with great talent and knowledge could craft a nightmare to a chosen purpose, one that could act or react with a great deal of realism within the parameters of the scenario.
So Essentially Ishy creates three Dreamshards, occupying two of them with a living nightmare of his design that is able to play out his chosen scenario, occupying the third Dreamshard himself and then draws the boys into the Dreamshards via T'A'R.
What do Y'all think? Feasible?
I think you are right.
Lanfear did the same things that Ishy did.
Both were capable of what Moghy did to Brigitte, but in that situation, it was because of what happened with Brigitte and Moghy in the Age Of Legends.
That was personal.
I also put Graendal close to these three in skill, but not at their level.
Pretty much between Mesaana and these three, and Rahvin belongs at the same level as Graendal, as well.
Could Ishy have created a monster which acts and reacts to a person in the dream shard? Yes, I will grant you that. However, Ishy was trying to both gather information and manipulate the boys. That would not be possible with a mindless construct. I don’t think any sentience could be granted something imagined in Tel’aran’rhiod. Pulling the boys into a dream shard one by one, however, is perfectly doable and something a skilled Dreamwalker with the Talent for it can train to do.
Good try. 😉
@@danalou_who7765 I do not think Ishy could do that, either. Create versions of himself that react to the boys. Even a nightmare would not have the response in real time. Because, remember the Baerlon dream when Rand saw Mat dreaming?
Later on, in a location after they were on their own, Rand saw Mat dreaming, and Mat was saying that Ishy took his eye out when he woke up.
That pretty much confirms that Mat's dream was totally different to Rand's, and Ishy was controlling that dream personally.
Because Rand did not have the eye situation happen to him. If Ishy set up a scenario each time, then left it running, Rand would have a dream where his eye was taken at some point. Perrin also would have had it, also.
But, Ishy noticed the wolves when we see Perrin dreaming at that point in the story. That means that Perrin was not the Dragon, and Ishy realised it in that moment.
37:16 If that is the case, I wonder if the Aes Sedai proctoring the tests would watch or participate back when dreaming was more common. I'm sure the Wise Ones would!
You have to do a deep dive about the Horn of Valere. What kind of magic is that? How the hell does it work?
I’m pretty sure RJ said that even in the age of legends they didn’t know how it worked. Meaning it’s something older and more mysterious than channeling, so there’s no real answers.
I pronounce the last two syllables "ree-ODE"
The will and belief thing is so strongly established already by the rats in the tavern in EoTW and Rand's first heron scar.
What about how Perrin enters the dream. Taking the rhe path towards T A R.
What's the song you used for the intro? It's perfect reading music.
Maybe the arrow is how mogi connected Birggetta’s (sp) soul to the real world. She tied her soul thread to the arrow and then sent them both to the real world. Kinda of a negative times a negative equals a positive. If that makes sense…
So this is kinda just spacy head thoughts. But, TAR is a constant it exists within or around all the world's( mirror, real, parallel). Also all the allusion to the real world being a dream ( wake from the dream etc.) So what if TAR is the real world, and all the other worlds are just reflections of it. That's why the last battle with Rand went down the way it did, he stepped into the "real" world(TAR) in order to confront the DO because anything he did in the awake world wouldn't affect him. Idk if this makes sense, words are hard when you think im concepts 😂
I don't think the heroes will come if you call with the horn, I think Hawkwing says that the heroes can choose not to come in AMOL
The stone ring ter'angreal has nothing to do with prophetic dreams.
Do you have to be able to create a ter'angreal in the real world in order to create it in TAR? Or can they just will it into existence without knowing exactly how it's constructed and works in every detail?
Nyn created a fully working A'dam in TAR without knowing how to make one.
what is your intro music please
I love you guys but I just can't listen to anglicized pronunciations without cringing a bit haha. Like Egwene, for example. I say egg-when and others say eh-gween. The official pronunciation sounds silly to me and my Latin bias. Same for Tel'aran'rhiod, though that one isn't that bad. Thank you for all the knowledge and discussion, despite my own personal biases towards pronunciation due to English being my second language.
It wouldn't be a Wheel of Time discussion, if it didn't touch on pronunciation. :) Cringe away, and I'm glad the discussion was a fun one.
Could Perrin or Luke channel in TAR if they so chose? Was the only reason the Rahvin balefire worked because they were in the flesh?
Channeling in TAR would require channeling capability, but using will and belief to mimic the effects of channeling perhaps they could do. You can balefire without being there in the flesh.
@@TheDustyWheel And it's faster to not channel and to just think it per the books.
Third constant? That's a recognized concept in the community?
I've been grappling with that idea for the last year or so.
If that's the case, how do people still think of this series cosmology in a binary sense?
I would say that it is binary in the sense that only 2 of the constants oppose each other. The 3rd constant just is.
Here’s a question for everyone. Would anything have happened if one of the three boys had drunk the wine offered to them by Ishy?
We've chatted about this before on Discord. I postulated that similar to the Blue and Red pill in the Matrix, drinking the wine would have placed a bind on whomsoever would partake and Ba'alzamon would gain power over them whenever they sleep.
Compulsion?
@@shauntempley9757 Similar. Closer to the dream hacking Moghi suggested or the adam stuff Nynaeve actually did to her.
So wheel of time operates on Freddy rules
Hmm what if the concept of entering in the flesh is also related to something else? When you're in T'A'R in spirit, you can become addicted to changing your attire, even your form. Why summon a horse to run fast when you can become one? Or any animal? Belief is strong...
But now think of what would happen if you did that while there in the flesh. It's one thing to change your spiritual form, but what happens when it's your real form? If someone returns you to the real world, wouldn't you remain as that animal? And did any of the Forsaken ever use that as a method of torture?
That ability to do anything, change anything, is fun as a spirit, but when there in the flesh it becomes dangerous. And I think that's related to the idea of loosing your humanity, ie your morals. And anything that looses you your morals is often thought to be evil by many.
Also, on the can you heal yourself if you were burned out question. I stand with the no, though here's why I think that. It's been said before that someone burned out has nothing there; they can't be healed because there is nothing to heal. They're essentially like someone who could never channel now, so they couldn't will themselves to be able to channel because that connection is no more.
If they were stilled/gentled however, that I believe they could probably fix as it's a broken connection that can be repaired. But it'd probably be a shoddy job, like putting in a single plank of wood to cross a bridge once made of stones.
Any one can be a franklin richards in tel'aran'rhiod it seems
Why do you always name only one of your guests? I would like links to their discord channels!
Neither Drew nor I have our own Discord Server. You can find us both in The Dusty Wheel Discord, though, and Drew has a podcast called Inking Out Loud.
@@danalou_who7765 thank you! I'm new to Discord, but I'll find my way around ❣
@@hiltrud2001 Holler at Zuul if you want a hand.
@@danalou_who7765 do you know that your wall clock was stuck? I thought I could finally find out the time difference between you all and me in Greece 🇬🇷 but it showed the same time throughout the show 🤣
@@hiltrud2001 😂 Yes, when the battery stopped, I turned the hands so that they look like a mustache with the googly eyes on the clock. I kept wondering when someone would notice. We started the show at 9PM EDT, but we were in different time zones, so for me it was 8PM and for Matt and Drew it was 7PM.
Innkeeper your Tee doesn't show, what's the writing saying?
Pregnancy is a change of matter. And perhaps souls enter at birth.
They barely talked about dreamshards😤
I know. We really didn't touch on it enough. We will get back to it!
@@TheDustyWheel Because shards aren't TAR, separate conversation.
I just saw the first three episodes of season 2 and am really disappointed… it seems like Perrin has the gift of visions instead of dreams. Maybe they thought it would be too hard to do? At this point the TV show isn’t even trying.
They're just introducing TAR in the second season to be explored more in the third. It's tiring atp, stop watching it if you don't like it. The show is trying and succeeding
Could you try to be more nerdy in this video?
Anyone remember how much of a dumpster fire they made this show. All because instead of getting hillbillies to direct they hire some fluff that was never a man one day in his life.