Did the Wheel of Time show work for non-book readers?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
- Today I'm coming at you with three interviews with people who have NOT read the Eye of the World but watched the Amazon Prime Wheel of Time show. I think they have a really interesting perspective to give! (Well technically one person read it halfway through the show - their interview might interest you most!)
As a reminder: You cannot be rude to my friends. I will delete your comments. You've been warned.
Chapters
00:00 - A description of each interview
00:49 - A warning
01:44 - A fantasy reader who has not read EOTW
22:14 - A fantasy reader who read it halfway through the show
50:15 - A non-fantasy reader who watched the show
56:43 - Some final thoughts
Videos mentioned
@ReadByAndy : • THE EYE OF THE WORLD l...
Socials
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews
Amazon wishlist: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls... - Zábava
When people say "if they come with a strong season 2"... what they are really saying is: "If they use season 2 to correct the many mistakes of season 1". That alone should be signaling something.
IF WE DON'T HAVE HOPE WE HAVE NOTHING LEFT 😭 (what I'm saying is, is yes you are right)
Indeed.
// what they are really saying is: "If they use season 2 to correct the many mistakes of season 1"
It really sucks after seeing a show like The Expanse, which just sets things up well from the start. Just knowing that there's quality like that out there, I don't have the patience to waste my time watching shitty shows and hoping they get good later. Life is too short. If I want good WOT content, I'll just read the books.
The WOT books are good and that's enough for me. The show can fade away as far as I'm concerned. There can be another adaptation later. They make reboots all the damn time. Fraggle Rock got a new movie. Ducktales got a reboot. BSG is getting a reboot again. Ghostbusters got two in under 10 years.
**It's not the end of the world if this show gets canceled! In fact, the worst case scenario is Judkins and his writing team continuing on at the helm**, blocking a better production team from the opportunity to take a better crack at it.
Judkins has done nothing but double down on the shoddy work he has delivered. He's not capable of righting the ship. This is his first time helming such a huge project: He would need experience helming at least ONE such project first to have the skill set required.
Well season 2 wrapped just after season 1 aired soooooo
What really saddens me is that after reading many non book readers reactions, most, almost all, don't care at all about the EF5 (Nynaeve being somewhat an exception but barely). And that's just a total failure, especially when it comes to Rand, there should at least be some interest. They are the main characters, after 8 episodes i see more people caring about Liandrin, the hell.
And i totally agree with what your friends said about all the teenage drama, it's so incredibly unnecessary, and i didn't see anybody, reader or not, being even remotely invested in that "triangle". That scene with Rand and Perrin was terrible, those are not Rand and Perrin AT ALL.
The thing, is they tried to darken the tone to appeal more to adult audiences but then...threw in a love triangle which is stereotypically known to be a more YA fantasy element. Just a very weird choice.
@@Bookborn Your friend Brandons take on the whole Perrin killing his wife plot really hit for me. His reaction was basically exactly what Sanderson warned Rafe against doing in an interview and Rafe just totally ignored him. Which had to do with how there was just no way the show was going to be able to do justice to the emotional turmoil that would come about from killing your spouse like that.
@@Baalzamon84 It's such a big trauma, there is no way Perrin could get over it so fast, if ever. And it just went nowhere.
With how they handled it i wouldn't be surprised if his wife will be barely mentioned in season 2.
I don't even know how his beef with the WC will go, in the book he killed 2 of them, in the show...he growled once at Valda.
The EF5 aren't that good in the books either imo. People are interested in Liandrin because antagonists make the story, not protagonists. Jordan never got that memo, making his stuff hard to adapt.
@@davidbowles7281 We just have different opinions about this. I was plenty interested in how these 5 (some more, some less) story was going to unfold, no matter what i thought about them. Egwene is my least favorite of the 5 as a person, still i really liked her story arc, and i was way more interested in her's than Perrin's for example.
Villains are good, but i never felt the need to know more about someone like Liandrin. If anything i wanted more of the Forsaken, in the show as well (still, not as main characters unless it's a spin off).
This was so interesting! I think it just validated my final opinion on the show - I could have gotten on board with almost any changes from the book if they had just made good television. But all we have is a mediocre tv show and a bad adaptation.
Yep, agreed. If non-book readers were super excited about the show and just LOVING it, then I think we would all pause. But...it's just not happening for the most part. THey are finding it just OK.
100% agree
Yeah. You can get away with almost everything, if you are good at the core thing you do. Sportstars or Musicians beating their Girlfriends, nobody cares aslong as they score points, or produce good music.
Or Gaming Companys: Riot and Blizzard basically had the same problem, nobody cared about Riot, because people were happy with the product. Blizzard gets (deservedly) craped on, because people are not happy with the product.
So even if the show changed alot, or was super woke, nobody would really care if it was just good Television.
If it weren't for the special effects to save its ass it would have been the same quality as the Legend of the Seeker. Which was failure as a tv series.
I always refer to this Reddit comment about the show that I saw. It sums up my feelings perfectly. 👇🏽
"I felt like a gambler at the horseraces: the anticipation and hopes of what might be ahead of the race, the ups and downs of the race itself, and throwing away the betting slip, returning to my 9-5 job after the horse collapses on the track and doesn't even cross the finish line."
Watched it with my Daughter and her boyfriend, (20 somethings) who knew nothing about the books, and we did it weekly as the new shows came out, (no binging). Generally, they started confused, and felt the story had poor explanation of what was going on. The wife and I (who have both read the entire series) tried to fill in a lot of questions about back story and the powers, but if we hadn't been their I can't say if they would have understood half of what was happening. The boyfriend noped out at the Love Triangle. His exact quote, "What, is this a CW show? Didn't Perrin just kill his wife? Well did he kill her to get her out of the way?". Needless to say, he was done with the show after he though Perrin was a murderer. Daughter liked the politics of the Sisters in episodes 4-6, but by episode 7 and 8 was playing with her phone rather than watching the show. In the end, she compared it to Netflix's "Smoke and Bone" and "Cursed", which is not high praise. Neither expressed a desire to watch Season 2.
Such a bummer, but that seems to be the default opinion - it's not working for non-book readers either. And the show is relying a lot on book-readers knowledge but is also alienating us. It's confusing!
@@Bookborn I was sad, I wanted it to be something we could share. Honestly, it is just poor writing on behalf of the show. But that seems to be the plague of Hollywood lately.
Man, that's really suck. I know how it felt sharing something you love but not appreciated. Its not your daughter and bf fault tho, the show just suck. Most people wouldnt want to pick up the book because how bad this show is.
A fun thing for me was watching your face during the first interview. Barely restraining yourself from helping your friend with his confusion over the storyline and characters. 😆 Perfect visual of the frustration most of us WOT readers have with the show.
LOL I was trying so hard not to spoil things too since I know he's going to read it 😆
AJ's comment (time stamp 39:45) is spot on.
"The problem is there are so many plot holes, so many inconsistencies, so many mistakes, it doesn't make me feel like I'm in the hands of a master story teller that's going to make it all pay off. It makes me feel like "do they know what's going on right now?" "Are they just flying by the seat of their pants pulling this together?" "
Yes, he said it so well! I started feeling the same. So many almost-good elements that just...didn't come together, or weren't planned effectively
My reader friends and i tried to like it but couldn't get past all of the major changes. My non-reader friends liked the show, but they didn't have enthusiasm for it; they just watched it because they saw the commercials and ads. For them it was just entertainment for a few hours.
That’s seems right perfectly describe the friends I interviewed. It was entertaining for them but nothing to inspire obsession
as a non-book, that is my exact reception: cool show, but completely forgettable.
i was initially quite awed by the cool effects they used for aes sedai magic, but it got wayyyy out of hand by ep8. in retrospect it was really only best used in ep1 when morainne smashed some trollocs. ep8 reallyyyy felt bad, even before i watched any reaction videos after.
@@Bookborn I wish I could had entertainment at least. But for me the entertainment factor of a story where I see 20 people charging the back of their own fort, and characters behaving totally unnatural in their story is close to zero. I only watched all 8 episodes because I wanted to know what they made out of the story. After the first 3 episodes I still had hope, I understood that cuts were necessary. But then they just went too far with not explaining anything but creating contradictions and ambiguity mixed with woke propaganda, like "the arrogance of men broke the world", "the power is for women only". (Do you remember Kathleen Kennedy in a t-shirt with "THE FORCE IS FEMALE"?)
As a person I do not like when writers think I'm stupid and I won't see the incoherence in the story. --> Nynaeve's story about the Wisdom who was rejected by the White Tower because she was poor, and in Siuan poor Sanche's story, who is accepted and raised to leadership.
Moiraine who spent 20 years to find the Dragon Reborn because the fate of the whole world depends on him, but when she does find canditates she just casually abandons all of them in great danger for a month, hoping, they can and will go to the White Tower. (book vs. show - *they arrogantly thought* they can write a better story than Robert Jordan)
Siuan Amyrlin Sanche dreaming about the Dark One being weak at the Eye of the World and not sending all Aes Sedai there right away to attack, but only Moiraine with two untrained girls and some boys to certain death. In secrecy. What a wise leader.
The writing of this show is insulting everyone's intelligence. 😕
@@moma-b Thank you. I hadn't made the connection between the previous Wisdom and Siuan when I watched the show, but I totally see the contradiction. The Wisdom's journey to the White Tower at 14 wasn't mentioned in the books.
The show needed some visible reason for Nynaeve to be mad in the presence of Moiraine so that her power could be sensed. And that angry story was it. The anger started when Moiraine blocks Nynaeve's exit from the pool before the story is told.
Exactly how Moiraine knew that anger was necessary to detect Nynaeve's power, who knows, but she did. Maybe that is included in the Karaethon Cycle along with knowing the Dragon Reborn is female. Maybe Rafe was using it as a similarity to the writing on the One Ring being seen when it's been exposed to fire.
Great perspectives! Thanks for putting this together bookborn!- would love to see more content like this
I have yet to read the series but I do enjoy the genre having watched many fantasy shows and movies while also having a high interest in games both video and tabletop alike; however I did not care for the show and felt it was pretty bland without really diving into the meat of the characters. If anything I would say that these videos have had me more interested in picking up the books than I would have continuing the show.
I think many people share your opinion (including my friends). It was *fine*. Nothing that's inspiring a lot of excitement, even among non-readers.
The show was less than average. I didn't like it at all. I don't understand how can people would give it 6 out of 10. It is max a 3 and even that is high.
@@AA-hr1bk In comparison to the book series or just as a show overall?
@@FearTheLivingDFG just as a show. If it was not for the speciall efects to save its ass everything else is on the same level as Eragon and Legend of the Seeker. And those two were terrible. If i compare it to the books i will give it -1 rating.
Please have Brandon back on after he’s read the books. I’d be really interested to see if his take changes.
A few people have suggested this and I think it could be super fun! I'll have to get on him about reading it lol
@@Bookborn sweet. Thanks for replying. Always great to feel connected to the channels I follow. Consider me a sub with the bell ON!
@@Bookborn He needs an extra name though because with WoT every time anyone is saying Brandon... well unless his surname is Sanderson too! 🤣
@@Bookborn I love how Brandon didn't care about ANY of "the main FOUR" characters from Emond's Field... and completely forgot about Nynaeve making FIVE.
Notice how Brandon NOTICED and REMEMBERED even Thom... from just one episode? And of course Lan... and Logain.
He noticed and remembered, and WAS INVESTED IN three of the four male characters who were NOT "pathetic losers"... as well as Moiraine and Liandrin.
WHO he noticed, among the guys, who he didn't remember/mention, and who he outright admitted NOT caring about, should tell us all rather a lot about how well the WRITERS of this show did their job of getting us invested in our heroes.
@@nyetzdyec3391 I disagree. I think it really just tells us alot about what his own personal interests in characters and story-elements are, personally.
I've never read the books either. And yet I noticed and remembered and cared more about completely different things than what he did, myself. 🙂
This is such an interesting video! Thanks BookBorn and guests!
Seriously, this was an awesome video. Your friends did an awesome job of expressing their views. And, I think that their views were both insightful and very telling. Again, great video!
Thanks for watching!
39:55 That is the best summary of the impression this show gives that I’ve ever heard. And yes, I 100% believe they don’t really know the story as well as they say they do and are just making every decision practically on a whim.
And I'm for sure more biased against that sort of thing - I'm always someone who has preferred tight plotting to exploratory writing, and so it always grates me when I see it happening.
Amazon did not buy the rights of WoT to make a good adaptation. They bought it to make as much money as they can, with as little investment as possible. Nobody cares about the story. They want to make money, convey propaganda, and that's it. Have you read the script of the first episode? It's really bad. It is worth it to read and learn what did they aim for. 🤐
Rafe said they weren’t following the book. That they took quotes from the books and built the story around those. Not the plot or the characters. Just quotes. A very subjective way to try and make a faithful adaptation.
18:05 Not even book readers know where the show is going from here. I feel the first season only stuck to the books just enough to be able to claim it was based on them, but it ended in such a way that it seemed to be telling the audience “forget what you know about the story, cause we’re doing our own thing now!”
Yes but it's expected as book readers that we don't know where it's going because we are stuck on all the changes...it's more damaging that non-book readers have no idea what to expect either, you know? Like the show should be able to stand on it's own, at least...
@Ash Hill No kidding! Are you ok with them doing their own thing or nah?
Your friends are great, thank you SO MUCH for sharing their perspectives with us!
Love this! Thanks for making it happen and to your friends for participating. :)
Thanks for watching!
I figured it out! I love the way you annunciate words! Good video!
Awesome video. Great job bringing us these perspectives.
This is really good to hear. Honestly kind of what I expected, but I like seeing the opinions of different viewers. I’m still waiting for my brother to finish it so we so we can talk, but I definitely think his reaction will be very similar.
-T
I love the perspective. Great idea of a way to sum up the way different people felt about season one.
Great video! I hadn’t read the books about halfway through as well and them started reading them at episode 4! I’m now on shadow rising and I really enjoyed the series as a whole as a great piece of television with the actors perfectly capturing the characters for me in early part of the series. There are some differences I’m interested to see more of in season 2, like the Horn of Valere placement and others I can’t think of right now!
You’re friends opinions were fascinating and you are an awesome creator!
Have a good one.
Oh I'm so glad you are enjoying the books! It makes me so happy that the show is making people want to read them.
Great discussion! Loved this. Thank you.
Love the review/discussions, keep it up!
Just subscribed. Thank you for continuing the conversation. I think I've heard the majority of perspectives on this show. They are as varied and complicated as the weaves of a gateway.
Yes, I think there are a lot of different opinions, and it's been fun to collect them. I will be curious if one opinion starts settling as "dominate" the further we get from the show.
Great video, I appreciate their insight! Fantastic. Best wishes and good fortune to you and your friends.
It's interesting how many concerns/questions about lore would have been addressed if they had done the prologue from the novel rather than the scene they did.
Do you think it would've answered questions? I feel like as a reader the first time, the prologue didn't make much sense to me until after like book 3 or 4. But, I do think it would've been great to include just for wow factor alone
@@Bookborn I think it would help with some explanation of why men channeling is dangerous, and the threat the Dark One poses. I agree it would have created more intrigue or mystery if used as a prologue to episode one, but I think it would have worked better in place of the flashback we got in episode 8.
@@KameronFranklin "created more intrigue or mystery"... Another way to say "baiting the hook to attract viewers", which would have made it VITAL if only for that reason, but it would have served other purposes, as well.
Just for one, it would have explained why people are afraid of the Dragon being reborn in their lifetime... would have established a "stake".. would have explained WHY Rand resists the idea of being the DR, and so on.
@@nyetzdyec3391 I think one reasons why they couldn't (not just didn't, but couldn't) get into it more was the world lore breaking decision that a woman could be the DR. I know it was probably done for inclusion or what have you, but it tossed in a dilemma. If the DR is a woman, then you don't need to worry about the taint or them going mad and the whole part about men channeling isn't as bad.
@@johnmasteller140 I agree... but that's one HUGE reason that it was such a stupid decision in the first place.
The decision to "break the lore" and include the possibility of a woman being the DR had a great many "domino effect" results... and I can't think of a SINGLE one of those results that was actually good.
Even the people who enjoy that possibility, and/or the "mystery"... probably would NOT enjoy it if they understood all the crappy consequences which have resulted from it.
Hey! Found your indie fantasy September video the other day and instantly subscribed. Glad to see new content. And gotta say that this inspired me to give the show a shot. Adaptations of epic fantasy just don't usually work out for me, but hey, at least I know going in what the weak points are.
Thanks! And I'd say...read the book 🤣
Thank you for doing this. It was great to hear non book readers talking about the show. I think you having a history with them added a lot more to it. I've read the series a bunch of times, not a fan of the show (unsurprising, I know lol) . Also, I love your background! All the books and Cap's shield to top it off. Keep up the great work, it's appreciated!
Your guests were great. Well-spoken, thoughtful and warmly critical.
Smart pretty not overly confident willing to take criticism, not flack like pronunciation and you’re a good friend you are an amazing person
Thanks for making this video! I loved hearing these perspectives and finding out how your non-book reader friends felt about the series.
I had a lot of disappointment as a book reader as I watched the show with my husband who has not read the books and the amount of frustration I felt at the storytelling issues was felt tenfold by him. He ultimately found it boring and confusing. It was really sad because I’ve been wanting to listen to the books together with him and convincing him of that time commitment now is a much harder sell when I was hoping the show would pique his interest.
Really appreciated hearing some other point of views. I’ll be sharing this video with him.
Ugh that must've been SO frustrating! And just a bad sign that the show was confusing/not working for a non book reader. If your book readers don't love it, and your non-book readers aren't understanding it...then who is your show for?
I love this video. Thanks so much. 1:57 "Nerdy and legit" just how I would describe your channel.
Thank you for doing this. I was very curious about what non-readers (of the WoT books) thought of the show! They all did great!
They have such a different perspective which is really fun!
Thanks for this!
I discovered your channel while looking for level-headed discussions/reactions to the WoT series and I think this was a fantastic way to follow up your thoughts on season 1. As a book reader I think I would give it a 4.5-5/10. My non-book reader wife (she will probably read the books soon) was more of a 6/10 like your guests. She had a lotnof similar complaints and questions, and raised a lot of similar points too.
Oh that's fun that she's going to read it! Honestly, a TON of people have started reading it because of the show, which is a huge win in my book.
@@Bookborn agreed!
Great video and a wonderful follow up to your series on WoT show! I loved hearing these different perspectives from non-readers and semi-readers (your friend AJ). I'm on the fence about season 2. I would love to see Verin and Selene but not enough to jump in right away. I think I'm going to wait until a couple of episodes come out and watch a few reviews (including yours) before jumping back in (if I jump back in). I made the same face you did when I heard they were more than halfway done with season 2 by the time season 1 finished airing. I think one of your commentators mentioned Nerdy Nightly - they have started a book club series for WoT after watching the first season as non-readers. One of their comments on the first section of the book was - 'why didn't they just put the prologue in, would have explained so much' (I'm paraphrasing). That one comment was worth all the frustrating moments explaining to non-readers why I had such a hard time while watching this first season.
Yes I've heard so much of Nerdy Nightly! There's just so many simple small things they could've done to make it make more sense. These weren't giant episode-changing things; honestly, many could've been small. It's just that all those things added up to a season that didn't deliver on much.
I'm very nervous for season 2. I had way more hope before finding out it was already well into filming. I guess we'll see 🤷♀️ There is a non-zero chance that it may deviate so much as to be impossible to do differences videos...
Thank all four of you for filming this, It was very interesting... I have read the books many times throughout the years. And I also give the show a 5 / 10. The most fascinating thing about the comparisons (for me) is that a lot of the issues for both groups (book / non book) seem to be the same, just about different aspects of the show. In general the consensus I have seen is that the visuals were pretty good, the casting was good, the writing / lore fell very short. Some of the individual pieces were good, they just weren't cohesive enough to make an over arching story that made sense and drew in the audience.
But I digress
Thank you for your fun discussion . I enjoyed it
Completely agree. Components were there but they didn’t manage to bring everything together. Hopefully they listen to their detail person better next time n
Props to you. You can tell you're struggling to not give away what happens in the books compared to the show. Especially in the first interview.
The restraint is admirable. I couldn't do it. 😂
Just starting the video, but there are so many people on CZcams who reacted to the series as non book readers and really loved it! It really helped me to watch those for the whole week leading up to the next one! One channel, Nerdy Nightly, loved the show so much that they decided to start reading after the show finished. Though they agree the last episode was very disappointing.
Yes! I followed Reddit threads who mentioned a lot of them. Seeing non book readers reactions is very fun.
They are a sweet married couple. I like their videos a lot, as well.
They are amazing, I agree. I love to see new WoT fans
The lack of world building/lore seems like the biggest problem
Yep, I agree. It's all in the writing room. It relies too much on book-readers knowledge but also doesn't want to make them happy either
Great video! Cool friends and I appreciated the varied opinions! And, ya gotta tell us what D&D campaign lasted 5 years! I am a book reader who never expected a 1:1 tv adaptation of TWoT. I didn't get one with GoT and I really enjoyed the show. The same goes for The Last Kingdom on Netflix. Great delivery, awesome writing and some very competent actors. Totally sold and happy. My biggest worry with the Wheel of Time was that they were going to make and deliver a CW style show in the vein of The Shannara Chronicles; and that is exactly what we got. Like they went and found everyone that worked on that show (down to the costume designers and lighting/sound engineers) and hired them for a do-over.
oh lol the campaign hasn't lasted 5 years! We've just been playing in the same group for five years 🥰 We cycle through being DM's. Our campaigns all last about a 1-1.5 years. It's such a fun group!
The Shannara Chronicles is perhaps the worst thing to every grace the screen. Like...I got so much second hand embarrassment from that show I think I made it 1.5 episodes before nope-ing out. This was better than that but I do think it had some similarities that are worrying.
Both WoT and Shannara average at 7.2 in IMDB with approximately the same distribution of votes - 10 being the most common with both series. At least the voters on imdb seem to have very similar feelings towards both of the shows.
@@Bookborn Exactly. I've always felt really, really bad for Terry Brooks. I honestly don't know his opinion on the tv adaptation of his books, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he wasn't too keen on it. I will never get over the 'elf ears' comments. They destroyed me inside LOL.
Morraine and Siuan was in the books but their “relationship” ended when they were novices. I was good with it still going on and being a love affair.
Awesome video! Even though you don’t like the show, I really love your videos and your perspectives! I love the show. Despite some issues I have with it overall, I really did like it. I never read the books when I started watching but my love of the show caused me to start reading them. And now I’m on book 3 and I still don’t feel the show has ruined the books or the characters. I love the cast and think they really nailed the characters from the book. I also like a lot of the changes they’ve made to the books. For all the criticisms launched at the show, I think similar problems persist in the books (pacing issues, fridging of female characters ie Thom’s arc in book 2, rushed arcs, poorly developed romances, etc). But I’ve had book fans call me stupid for liking the show, and it’s been really frustrating dealing with all of that to the point where it’s almost deterred me from continuing to read. I think people need to chill and let people enjoy what they want. It’s been annoying having tons of video essays say why the show is bad but any time someone says they like it, they get attacked, basically drowning out the opinion and making it seem like no one likes it. I like both the show and the book, and hopefully people can respect that opinion of myself and others!
Your love of the show is safe here!!! Even though I was disappointed, I'm always happy when people enjoy the show because I want it to perform well. I think this show doing well will pave the way for other shows and adaptations in the future.
Actually, most fans (at least the ones I talked to pre-show, before the loud minority started shouting) agreed there were issues we expected to see fixed in an adaptation. Like the fridging you mentioned, and honestly every single romance LOL like they aren't done well. So it's annoying that although some things were fixed (and I enjoyed that) others weren't...like fridging Perrin's wife. But I'm eager for season 2 and hope it fixes the issues I at least personally had with it.
@@Bookborn thank you so much!! I definitely hope they can fix a lot of issues from both the show and books in season 2! I love this series (in either form) and I want to see this show thrive and be the best it can be!!
Don't worry I'm with you with this. The show has a lot of flaw but a lot of high too, for instance: Padan Fain, the tathu'an, Nynaeve.. I do think that we have to suggest every fantasy addicted non book readers, to give a possibility to future seasons because, as for the books, there will be epic moments and a lot of cool new characters and incredible arc for the protagonists. Expecially the misunderstood Rand that, in the book, has one of the most impressive arc that I have ever read
Good comfortable interviewing and reviews… I like the non-reader perspective here
It sure did for me!
It was the final push to commit to reading the entire series, and while it's evident since the first chapters how some things are different, I am loving it!
Ok, so your friend on the episode, Brandon, would absolutely love the WoT books. If the Aes Sedai political intrigue his favorite part he would love the series!! I don’t want to spoil it in any way but the books go really in-depth and with him being a fan of Sanderson I think he would especially love the later parts of the series. It’s my favorite part of WoT too and quickly became my favorite book series ever. I really hope he reads it! I would love an update on the channel of more people reading it after the show is over.
Yeah the only difference is that stuff doesn't start until a bit later in the book...you aren't getting much of it in the first three parts. But I Think he will enjoy them, just since we read an enjoy a lot of the same stuff!
Great interviews! You have very cool friends! Even though they haven't read WoT ;)
We'll forgive them just this once for that 😂
SO MANY of Brandon's comments of things that don't make sense, or didn't get explained are how I felt reading Eye of the World. Lol
I think the main difference is that the book and the show follow completely different narrative threads. Stuff that by this point we should know in the show (but that in many cases we still don't), weren't really necessary in the first book.
@@bluelight17 I agree. it's a huge world(s?) with a ton of lore and it's hard to make sure what needs to be there for the audience is there (especially dealing with characters that don't know things themselves!)
LOL I mean yeah my deep dark secret is that I don't think the prologue makes a lick of sense to a first time reader. I didn't like the prologue until my second read through. It's only amazing to a seasoned person I feel like...
@@Bookborn yeah I read the prologue and was like...what?????????? emphasis on the questions marks. I also was still wondering what the eye of the world was when we the book was over, sometimes I still wonder... 🤔
I liked the veil down. It's a statement that she didn't want to fight.
I wasn't too bothered by it - even though it's sort of "lore breaking", I think for a show it was an ok choice. But...I did like what AJ had to say about it so now I'm conflicted
IMO, the veil down would be fine to indicate she doesn't WANT to fight... but then she needs to put it UP when fighting becomes inevitable.
She dies in the ONLY scene she has all season, so we don't really need to connect with her as a person... but as a member of a group, "Aiel"... and Aiel veil when they intend to fight for real... kill or potentially kill.
In turn, later on, if they hadn't already "broken the lore", an Aiel character quickly veiling would save time/dialog/exposition, etc... ie - "A picture worth a thousand words."
@@Bookborn I think it is also important to remember her "origins"
(posted this on another reviewer's comments as well, just so ya know)
I knew a little going in, because I watched Daniel Greene's "let's summarize" series (over a year ago, since I never intended to read the books, and forgot most of it), and some of the basic lore of "how the world works" type stuff.
After watching the series, I listened to the first audiobook (listened through the first 3 after posting this)... just to see how much they went off the rails.
(I've also been watching Shad rightfully rip the series apart.)
Impressions from watching:
* The first episode contradicted known lore. (I was willing to let them play the "unreliable narrator card" once.)
* The whole "men cause the taint" thing, and no differentiation between Saidar and Saidin, was repeated from the perspective of at least 2 Aes Sedai (Moiraine and Liandrin, perhaps different wordings, but the same idea came across to me).
* The whole "the 'dragon reborn' can be either a man or a woman" thing just baffled me. This undermined a core element of the original lore that has HUGE implications in the world.
* Moiraine must be the main character of the story.
* The "aging up" and sexualization of certain relationships didn't work for me (especially the "love triangle", and knowing the amount of stress and tension there was in the original story about the coming of age story, not being able to talk to girls, sex before marriage being a massive taboo, etc) Things that would have made sense for a younger group to be important seemed really out of place for the group we saw on screen - it's like they were only aged up enough to have sex scenes, but remained early teens in everything else.
* Rand was a non-character (and coward.) His reveal to be the Dragon Reborn was unsatisfying, relying on withheld information, incorrectly seen scenes - channeling in the ways, etc.
* Perrin was a werewolf who was going to follow the way of the leaf to avoid transforming, like the incredible hulk. His murdering his wife seemed unnecessary unless it was an important event from the books that I didn't know about...
* Mat was a creep. I know him to be a hero in later books (due to Daniel's "lets summarize" thing, and being his favorite character...) so, unclear how he'll recover from the dagger stuff... the show trying to say he'll go down the dark path just rings false, given my rough outline of later books... so not engaging to me.
* Nynaeve was very powerful and stubborn and angry. (I guess they nailed her from what I hear.)
* The Aes Sedai were a powerful group respected everywhere, except the borderlands, where stupid men don't want any help fighting the hordes of the dark one.
* Whitecloaks could capture, torture, and kill people right outside the walls of Tar Valon, if they suspected them of being Aes Sedai... they must have a powerful country's backing to run around with impunity.
* Tom was basically Aragorn as a cowboy thief who met Rand and Mat and then 'died.' (only think he doesn't die because he looks like Aragorn... and Daniel's summarize stuff mentions him again later.)
* This Stepin guy must be an important char... nevermind. (Foreshadowing Rand/Egwene warder or Moiraine dying? I didn't pay that much attention to the "let's summarize" thing afterall.)
* Pregnant battle lady was unrealistic and over the top.
* The Logain stuff was mostly ok.
* We finally get a reliable narrator - a DIRECT scene from 3000 years ago, not just a story... and it shows Lews Therin to be a stupid arrogant man that ruins a utopia, and he gets warned by a woman of the events that will unfold. (I know from Daniel's summary, that this is a totally false scene, so I'm not willing to let the writers slide with another "unreliable narrator" card, or some character perspective thing... this is twisting the original story of desperation and a final last plan, that succeeded! Lews did nothing wrong. And they kinda leave out the whole bore thing... and the women not helping, and the fact that the Dark One retaliated against the men's sealing him away, which added the taint to the Saidin.
* Agelmar was a pompous idiot.
* Where was Rand's moment to shine, showing how powerful he was when he went out of control with lightning and fire? And the whole sword of light thing...
Overall takeaway: Men are stupid, arrogant, and ruined a utopia. Rand needs to follow the orders of the Aes Sedai to fix what Lews did wrong or something. (unclear what the Dragon Reborn needs to do, or what really happened at the eye of the world. Who was that guy? Why was he smiling? What is that broken rock?)
"What's going on" moments after audio-reading the book(s) (and watching rant vids):
* Rand didn't stand out at all. His little meltingpot of a crossroads town was home to a wide variety of people to blend in with.
* The whole Perrin thing didn't work for me. They really gutted (intended) his story. In the book, he didn't have any leaning toward the way of the leaf, and already knew what he was, thanks to a character they never introduced to his story.
* Moiraine's destroying the inn basically flies directly in the face of the fact that the Inn was one of the only remaining buildings after the attack in the book... not super important but...
* Moiraine's injury just... doesn't make sense to add. I guess it stops her from doing her Gandalf impression, with the earthquake and wall of fire "you shall not pass" moment.
* The dreams made no sense without any real confrontation. At this rate, they could have just given them the dream prophesy/message of the dark one wanting to blind the eye of the world... and potentially made that part of the Ta'veren thing. I dunno. That seemed to be a big reason for them meeting the tinkers, and Loial. (I forget who else had the same prophesy now.)
* Tom didn't act as a mentor to Rand/Mat at all really. His character was a big "what's the deal here?"
* The "relationship" between Moiraine and Siuan didn't work for me, since the book describes them talking about the men they'd marry... not something I'd expect that sort to talk about. (just finished listening to this part.)
* Moiraine channeling to open the ways made no sense. Loial was there... let him (or Moiraine) find the leaf and use the leaf! And let him guide, not just read the guide stone once in the ways...
* The Logain stuff, with him looking like some depressed, hollow, shell of a man, instead of a king basking in the glory of the praise of his people, despite being caged and being a sign of his going mad... because they decided to gentle him before getting to Tar Valon... just undercuts that part of him, and Rand's impression.
* No Caemlan... the queen, the princess, ... no, Tar Valon instead... and they didn't even reach Tar Valon in the first book.
* Fal Dara was a HUGE supporter of the Aes Sedai, welcoming their aid, and hoping Moiraine was there to help against the massing forces. When they learned of the mission, the king kept insisting on sending warriors to aid her in her battle... speaking of which...
* Agelmar was a very good man, not pompous in the least, welcoming, understanding, supportive, and intelligent.
* The Blight was not the blight I expected, nor was the eye of the world, or the lack of the green man. Why the Horn wasn't found in the protected resting place along with the flag... just makes no sense how it was under the throne... (especially given the first 5 chapters I've listened to of the 2nd book...)
* Rand's decision to just go off to live as a hermit so he wouldn't hurt anyone as the Dragon... and Moiraine just letting him go, when we know she knew that was NOT the last battle... makes no sense at the finale... sure, she's stunned because she was shielded/stilled, whatever that didn't happen in the book... just... and I've even started into book 2, where he's wanting to do the same thing... but it's clear Moiraine isn't just letting him go entirely... there's a reason, and direction she's pointing him to take up the role of the Dragon Reborn, whether he likes it or not...
They had the unique chance here, to go back and write "chapter 1" of the series, after knowing the ending, so they could have written something that really spoke to the overall themes of the story and the characters... and we got that thing instead.
The theme from the book/series, of men and women working together... two halves of the whole... is fully and totally lost in this adaptation.
Thanks for putting this together, I know Adam and it was enjoyable seeing him surmise the Amazon product in a very apropos way. It is worrisome that season two is already underway and how close they are to post production, could seal the fate of its future more so than any cuendillar could.
The point of adaptation changes from book to TV are for a few basic reasons. Complexity and the reliance on imagination in a book can be difficult to adapt for movie/tv, characters feelings, and especially in fantasy the magic needs to be visualized, and finally if the changes make the story better.
The changes Judkins makes do not make the story better, instead of using already proven story archs and events, he either ignored or changed those events and then failed to make any impact for the better. As with your select panel here, the story on Amazon is confusing and without substance and it is hard to escape the thought if Judkins would have just stuck to the story, it would have been far less confusing and more time could have been spent on capturing an audience to be fans of the characters, instead there are the extremes both for and against, but majority of TV show watchers share the response to the question, did you like the show ...."meh".
That seems like a waste of millions of dollars and ruined a truly epic fantasy story being told well.
As a old (haven't finished the series but read the first 7 books years ago) book reader and many of the facts and details are forgotten, I was open and ready for an adaptation - true to the source material - that was likely to be different than the books, and I would have enjoyed them if they were done well and made sense with an outcome that was rewarding. But Judkins' team failed.
Radical changes/adaptations to the same story are possible and can both be unique and enjoyable, one example is 'It's a Wonderful Life' and the modern adaptation of that story 'Family Man'. Very different, very independent, but tell the same story. Amazon and JudCo had a ready made consumer base. Sadly though, the product offering they sold was average for the masses.
Like those here, I will watch season two but without any excitement because season one was so poorly executed and instead watch with morbid curiosity how they continue to defame such legendary work.
Yes, I am also very worried about the fact that season 2 was well underway before season 1 was over - and so no actual productive criticisms could be taken into account. We'll see...
I found this fascinating, great diversity of non-reader viewpoints and everyone was very well spoken! My experience is that I was up to Book Eight when the show started releasing, and I kept saying to my partner who hasn't read it, 'I'm almost certain that didn't happen'. As someone who had only done one read of the books the season was based on, I found it more confusing than my non-reader friends and relatives. The character changes were more frustrating than plot or setting compression, I could handle that if the characters felt right. All in all, I enjoyed the show for what it was, but felt that Episode 8 in particular was a huge letdown. I hope Season 2 is an improvement, it has so much potential to be good!
Yeah I think most readers and non readers agree that episode 8 really lost it. Which is a pity, because I think if it hit it out of the park I'd feel completely different about the entire season.
When I found he read redwall, I shouted for joy to myself... on of my top 5 favorite series
Highly recommend it. It's like the animal fables but in the medival era
AJ is spot on. Especially about the feeling of a grand story teller with huge payoffs. You just don't feel that at all watching the show. And his take on the Aiel and the veil is clever too
Yeah and without those pay off's, I feel ultimately that's why even those with no skin in the games only felt like it was ok. It didn't pull enough emotions.
Loved this! I have had so many conversations with friends who have not read it, and your conversations almost mirror my own. My friends are enjoying the show but are very hesitant to start reading the books as they're worried it'll ruin the show for them. It's funny considering how backwards that sounds to me! Amazon should watch this and view it as a model for public polling on their show.
Lol I get that, if they are enjoying the show and all the book readers aren't they don't have a lot of incentive to start I guess 🤣
I am one of those people. I really liked the showed, but with all the nitpicks from book readers I don't think it will last and so I don't wanted to get invested. And from what I hear the books have a lot of teen angst and the show is positioning itself to be for a mature audience. That is why none of the main characters resonate with the audience with the exception of Naneve.
@@lynneaheatley2317 I wouldn't say there's much teen angst at all in the books. They're a great read. You should give them a go!
@@lynneaheatley2317 The fact that the show has an unnecessary love triangle, is more teen angst then most of the actual books.
I never heared of the WOT before the movie came out but I loved the first season so much! Watched it 11 times before I’ve decided to actually purchased the books and start reading it( currently at book 4)
Hi. Really enjoying your channel and content.
This was really interesting and what I thought was most revealing is that all three views agreed that the major changes such as Perrin's Wife "Arc", the whole ending and the added scenes around Tar Valon with the Warders all didn't work. These points are also what many readers (myself included, been reading them since i was a teen in the 90's) feel were poor decisions. Just makes me think what on earth the show runner/writers are even doing??
I also started the WoT books after episode 4. Episode 4 is what won me over to the series. I finished all 15 audiobooks in less than two months after that.
At least for the majority of the series, the scenes that were adapted from GoT were fairly accurate. WoT is all over the place, and misses the CORE story.
Wow your friends seem like really nice people :D I'm glad you have such a fun group around you!
OT: damn this show, I hope it gets locked up with the forsaken :D hahahaha
LOL do we need to make a seal and seal away our dark one (the show)
I have read the series already and I have no hope for the show anymore. After watching the show, seeing the changes, reading about rafe and his beliefs about the show, I think the show will get worse and worse and get canceled in the end. This is a sad thing because I was so hyped for it at the beginning, encouraging my family to watch it. Nobody liked it. I personally give the show a 4/10.
I'm giving it season 2. Or at least a few episodes of season 2. But even for non-book readers this season is going to make or break the show. I wouldn't say nobody loved it... there's people on the internet who have... but it certainly wasn't enough people.
@@Bookborn I expect it to improve once the storylines do. EotW is pretty Tolkein derivative and the ending comes out of nowhere. The climaxes in the next two books are much more in line with the plot development throughout the books. And the quality of plotting is much better from book 4. My worry is the dialogue writing is pretty poor, but there's little dialogue in the books which is snappy enough to directly put into TV scenes.
I watched the show with my wife both of us not being readers of the books. We were both interested but confused through most of the season. Everything felt about the show just felt off not bad but not good. It kind of makes me think of a Dutch angle were you see everything but in a weird way. As we were going though the season I was watching shad break it down between each episode which deffanatly pointed out how bad (compared to the books) it is. I'm on book 5 now and I'm hooked and have no hope for this show.
Ps I thought it was funny how in the middle interview you both were talking about the aiel and her sword several times.
Pss watched all your differences videos and really enjoyed them as well as this video. Keep up the good work.
I have to admit I love hearing people who go and read the books because of the show and then LOVE them. Always like getting new WOT fans!
That was an amazing video! Watched the whole thing while at work and really liked to hear everyone's opinions. I laughed because I know so much of how you feel about the show, and when someone like Brandon (who didn't read the books) would confirm he feels the same you seemed so relieved 😂Super interesting take on the Aiel scene by AJ, I wasn't aware of the motivations for the change either. Also sorry but Adam is a carbon copy of Zack lolol
I kept waiting for the few people that know Zack to be freaked out by his brother lol. Zack has two brothers and they all look extremely alike and have similar mannerisms haha.
I liked Adam's prediction. It is a little amusing on how off the mark his prediction is concerning how the dragon will be multiple people.....but at the same time also hits the nail on the head for what happens and what is needed. And he nails one of the underlying themes of the book where men and women working together are stronger than working apart. So it's nice to see that that theme still seems to be within the show to some extent.
Thank you. Book Reader ( read series twice). This was great.
Nice video. I like the approach, here. I'm a book reader, and my wife and son are show watchers (defining them by what they did, rather than what they didn't do). I found it interesting to see what landed well with me vs what landed well with them. I also saw the conversation with Brandon and Dan on their podcast, Intentionally Blank. In one part, Brandon said that he thought something landed well, and Dan reacted by saying that he didn't know it was a thing, so it did not land for him at all. Dan had read the first book, but not the whole series. Anyway, my point is that we all can watch the same show and have a very different experience.
Personally, I went into the show knowing that it would be different. I've been that person who watched a screen adaptation and complained about everything that was different. I've decided to no longer be that person, as I can get much more entertainment out of it if I accept it for what it is rather than criticize it for what it isn't. With that in mind. I loved that they captured the characters. After all, the WOT characters are my old friends. I didn't have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which one is which. They were presented in a way that I immediately knew who each of them was. They were in different situations, traveled a different path, and other changes were made to their environment, but they still were true to the people I knew from the books. And, yes, I recognize that some characters are different. Mad had a very different upbringing, and at least one wife was added to this story. Even so, Perrin is slow and careful about every decision he makes, being careful not to hurt anybody. Mat has an unhealthy obsession with the dice to go with his sense of humor. Hopefully they are playing the slow game and resolve some of the things that you talked about in this video. On screen, they haven't shown us Perrin's thought process, so maybe that's still coming. It would be nice to see it all come together.
Liked the different perspectives. I had it at 6/10 before episode 8, which dropped it to 5/10 for me. Do you watch Sanderson's YT channel? Sounds like he may have more input in season 2, although his take on TV series - it is a different turning of the wheel.
Yes I love watching Sanderson's takes on the show. I wish they had listened to him more tbh lol. I mean Sanderson is my favorite author tho so I generally agree with him on how to tell stories!
@@Bookborn Random comment. My new puppy, Arnor, ran to the TV screen and stared at it when you started talking in this video. That lasted like 5 seconds, puppy attention span.
I been wanting to know this. hurray
I hope you enjoyed 🥰
"They need to knock it out of the park with season 2" and "They started filming season 2 before season 1 was released" puts me right in the boat with you on the level of hope I have. In order to get people to watch, they have to care about the characters. I went into it understanding that some of the side stories and minor characters would be cut or merged. Maybe some of the later books could have been merged into one season where we don't need an entire episode dedicated to Egwene's attire. But, with only 8 episodes, they should have only made it halfway through the first book to establish the characters. Had the final episode of the first season been the battle of Fal Dara with Rand destroying the trolloc armies, that could have been a nice bow to tie off a season where they had time to establish character motivations and personalities and fleshed out the lore. I'm curious how many people have watched the animated "Origin Story" shorts Amazon buried in the "extras". I rarely hear them mentioned, but they did help season 1 somewhat.
I have no problems with the actors. I think they've done a good job with the material they've been given. I think the level of issues caused by COVID have been downplayed - like them literally not being able to get actors into the country to film because of flight restrictions - like them not being able to get a set full of extras and so on. The ONLY reason I'm even giving season 2 a chance to redeem the series is in hopes they'll do a TON of flashbacks. I seriously think they should leave the tidal wave as a cliffhanger resolved in season 3 and spend ALL of season 2 fleshing out the characters and lore. We'll see...
Always interesting to hear other peoples takes on the show. I seem to be in the minority of booktubers/bookstagrammers who didn’t feel overwhelmingly negative about the show. It was great but I thought it was good and fun (like 7-7.5/10) and am excited for season 2 🤷🏻♂️
This is a lot more than anything my friends and family have had to say about the show, just a grunt or a shrug when I brought it up. The complete opposite of how they are with other shows. I suspect by now they couldn't remember anything that happened in the series...
I just force my friends into this 🤣
Would be really great to see how Brandon feels about the first book after reading it!
Not a book reader but just binged the series and enjoyed it! Looking forward to the next season.
crown of swords and path of daggers was a real chore to get through reading wise... it will be interesting to see how the showrunners approach them if it gets that far.
I can't wait to watch this video! Non-book readers seem overall to be much more positive on the series than book readers!
Yeah I think that’s true of most adaptations because book readers get too attached to their own imaginings lol
Give an old flip phone to someone who’s never seen electronics and it will seem magical.
Ignorance can be bliss in certain situations. Once you know what ‘really’ went down though in randland the show just hurts.
I’ve never read the Witcher books though and the show has been enjoyable for me. Same with the expanse. I think show/movie first will be the best way to tackle any new adapted thing I come across.
AJ's suggestion for having Shaiel take a wound because she takes the time to veil herself really says it all about this show. It's the kind of thing RJ would have included if a director had said "I'd really like for us to be able to see her face", but there's nobody on RJ's level as a storyteller on that production team.
It only takes one good idea to realize how many ways the show could've stayed more true to the books while just being more interesting and compelling in general
Hopefully this is fixed if they show Perrin freeing the Aiel from the cage.
Everyone in my circle who didn’t read the books loved the show. My wife and 2 of my friends have started to read the books because of the show. They didn’t take my advice years ago to read them, the show did it lol.
It’s great and sucks at the same time because now I’m re reading again with them as a mini book club, but sucks because I was just about to start Rhythm of War. Ahh well. Stormlight can be put off for a little.
Rhythm is a little tough to get through. Some preparatory wheel of time may strengthen your heart and resolve.
Ok well first I loved Rhythm of War so don't listen to this person 🤣 It was my second favorite of the SA books so far (although I think that's legit an unpopular opinion so maybe listen to The Abhorrent Chef).
That's my favorite thing about the show, honestly - so many people are reading it now because of it! So that was a huge success in that way
@@Bookborn yup. That’s how I got over my problems with the show and just went for a pure entertainment factor. That and I was looking forward to the adaptation of EoTW because well, it’s a hard book to adapt imo and one of the weakest.
I’m excited to see what they have in store for the next 5 books culminating with Dumai Wells. That scene is gonna be so brutal.
Funny thing was I was already re reading WoT. I just finished LoC. I was going to change up and read Rhythm, but now I’m going back to EoTW to read with my friends and family. First world problems.
75% chance Rand/Perrin/Egwene love triangle ends up with Perrin being interested in Rand, not Egwene.
LOL WELL IT WOULD GIVE PERRIN SOMETHING TO DO WOULDN'T IT
@@Bookborn lol it would at that
(Spoilers, just in case)
This is Rand we're talking about. Mutual polyamory is the only possibility.
Ummmmm…I honestly thought that was where they were going to to Be more woke…a rand Petrine thing…I did not pick up on the Perrin egwene thing
Awesome video. Best thing about the TV show is that it has encouraged many people to read the books.
I totally agree! I've been blown away by how many people have picked up the book because of the show
It's a 6-7 for me too. and hopeful it'll grow higher. Many things pick up on later seasons. Heck, even The Last Airbender starts off slow, but ends up easily being 10/10 for MANY ppl.
Haha also your brother in law looks so much like Zack I was like "wait did she say brother? oh, right, brother in law, that makes sense"
So true
lol I was waiting for people to say that about Adam. They get that ALL the time.
I would love to hear Bradon's take on things after he reads the books. Any chance you might talk to him on your show?
I asked him already if he'd come back on since a lot of people seem interested to hear his thoughts about the book! I just need to needle him in starting now lol
Greatest lines from this video " It felt a little like dragon ball Z, like Goku is summing the spirit bomb for five episodes" and " Felt really strange to see his pecks when his bro is dead" hahaha these were great.
I died with Adam said that about Lan 🤣
Really enjoyed everyone's thoughts! Everyone echoed some things that my wife and friends have been saying too. A lot of the things Brandon pointed out as being confusing lore-wise is also stuff my wife mentioned...a lot of stuff was just very unclear. When my friend asked why the Whitecloaks were able to just chill outside the White Tower, I was like "uhhh? Cuz" AJ's point about how the writing was just consistently the problem is the biggest issue, I think. Also your brother-in-law's takes are hilarious! His roasting of Rand was great. Can he be a regular feature? Also glad everybody is fully on board that this Perrin wife situation is atrocious.
One thing I'd disagree with you and AJ on is the Aiel/face thing. I get that there's lore around them always having their faces covered, but I'd agree with the cinematographer in this case. TV is a visual medium and the scene is more dynamic with the actress being able to react with her whole face, I don't see any version of this happening where they allowed her face to be covered xD it's just how TV works, I guess? Maybe when the Aiel are more plot relevant they will pay more attention to this..
DARTH VADER.
Anyway also, I do think it's super interesting that everyone hates Perrin's wife dying whether they read the book or not. It's just so clear they did not deliver on that story line.
@@Bookborn I didn't say you could NEVER have masked characters :p just that that scene would have been worse with a face covering. Ya dang nerds, always bringing up Darth Vader.
@@readbykyle3082 Ah, come on, Kyle! You gotta admit, she REALLY "pegged" you with that "Darth Vader" reply!
I also happen to agree that we did NOT really need to see her face... but they could have used a half-transparent veil as a sort of compromise.
Hahaha the guy in the last interview w/ the prediction of the male & female linking. This guy is a wizard. Thanks for putting this together. It was interesting to see some non-book reader's perspective as I'm too embarrassed with it to encourage my non-book reader friends/family to watch it. I'm a huge WoT fan and read through the whole saga a good 7-8 times, and understand all the little intricacies/rules of the world to a fault probably where I nitpick a bit too much. It's all the little things and inconsistencies with the world that just drove me nuts (IE: The big plan being to give Rand a Sa'angreal completely shattering the impact of what those actually are and how they are relevant later. lolol). I also was okay and understood there would be changes with a film adaptation and was completely okay with that, but to me they removed big parts of the character development and world building and replaced it with something that just created massive inconsistencies with the fundamentals of the world and story over and over again. (IE: Not setting the stakes with the actual EOTW prologue showing the breaking and really explaining how being the Dragon is more of a curse than a blessing and showing exactly why, or the dragon can be a man or woman to play up the "who is the Dragon" question). I do hope S2 will be better with COVID restrictions relaxing and no major last minute writing w/ a main character leaving, but my expectations are now rock bottom unfortunately.
Is there a followup video to this after the non readers have finished reading the first book (or the whole series)? I'm really curious to see how/if their opinions change.
As a non-reader of the books, I agree with a lot of what Brandon said. In my opinion, the show is about Moraine, Lan and Igwaine. Whatever is going on with the 4 kids from the 2 rivers and the dragon and the end of the world is pushed way way into the background and made almost irrelevant. I'd give the show a weak 7/10 but it needs to get stronger and spend more time on the main characters and whatever is supposed to be happening. A map would be helpful too.
Yeah I think you've hit at something which is that people are entertained enough that they will for sure watch the next season, but if it doesn't keep their interest people won't have a problem leaving it at the drop of a hat, either.
I haven't read the books, but the show made me want to read them to see the differences and how it compares.
I feel like if the show had committed to explore a different narrative, it would have been super interesting. Like, instead of having ye ol' hero's journey, we have Moiraine finding who is the hero to begin with; and if they had gone with that storyline for a couple episodes, introducing the watcher to the world, the people, the rules for channelling, the stakes!, it would have been waaaay more interesting. But since they went for showing the hero on the first couple minutes after the intro, that was ruined.
I then thought it was going to be sort of like a "who done it", of who's the Dragon Reborn, but again, it was super obvious it was Rand from the very first episode.
And then I thought that if they showed that the Dragon is all four of them (then casually just saying five), then Moiraine would explain their importance and train/mentor them, since she kept bringing up that they all would die (except for the Dragon) after going to the eye of the world.
But in the end, I didn't know the stakes, I didn't know the importance, the rules for channelling because they kept changing and the five were unnecessary because it was only two and three random untrained channelers the heroes of the day. It was a very disappointing show to be honest.
Honestly even as a book reader I think if they had just chosen to go WAY different it would've worked better. Like I could see a show that only focused on the Aes Sedai being very interesting. The thing is they went a weird "too close yet too far" from the book that left it in this weird nothing of a show.
Completely agree with AJ. They aren't changing season 2 and they thought season 1 was great. My hope at this point is that it does get cancelled after season 3 so they don't ruin some of the story just to try and stay on the air. Im especially worried they will use Dumais wells as an attention grabber but not set it up or lay the groundwork.
The more info I find out the more nervous I am for season 2. I guess we will jsut have to wait and see… hoping it’s less sloppy storytelling but not expecting it.
"You're the one that gave us the illegal downloads of Mistborn" You're truly an icon.
I only feel brave enough to say that now that Sanderson has literally taken all of my money 😅😅
This was a very enlightening video, thank you. I really hate to say it, and especially because season two was too far along in filming by the time season one ended and reviews started showing up that they won't be able to make any changes, if they are even willing to, in the third season...Buuuut, I really don't feel Rafe intends to give us anything other than his ideas of where the story goes and how it deals with the lore. Rumor is he has treated the resident WoT expert, Sarah Nakamura, with disrespect and mind f*&!ing. Sending her for coffee and such when they're in the middle of making decisions for the story and such. Her main job is to determine ramifications to the story if they do this or that, or kill off this person or that person. Rafe admits to getting joy out of constantly emailing her with horrid ideas of killing off or majorly changing main characters and asking her, in all seriousness, what the ramifications would be, all in what he thinks is a grand jest.
Also, like you said in this video, Rafe seems to come across as very satisfied with what they've accomplished this season and you see this in interviews all the time, he seems very excited as to where the show went where it's going to go. I'm a pretty dang intuitive person in reading personality traits and I really feel Amazon picked the wrong person for this job. I just think this is one of those people who think they are _way_ more witty, and _way_ smarter than they actually are, to the point where he's so confident in his work that he pretty much completely disregards any criticisms from the vast majority of viewers. I don't even think he'll manage to create the epic series Amazon wants from this. But I'm willing to watch season two and see where he takes it before solidifying this judgement.
Your friend Brandon's comments on wanting more back story, especially regarding what causes men to go mad using the Power, is really interesting. This brings me back to wondering _why_ they decided to omit the book's prologue and change the motives behind what the men did and were doing. This would have establish some serious stakes for this story. Also, Brandon's comments on Loial, so funny! Thanks Rafe, for making one of the most beloved characters in the book someone to take no notice of!
Incidentally Rafe wrote Episode 8 himself, and for whatever reason Brandon Sanderson did not get a chance to go over episodes 7 and 8 before they were filmed. Stands to reason why this episode was the weakest one and how far Rafe has managed to knock down my faith in him being able to do this thing the justice it deserves. When you leave your viewers asking _"WHAT?!"_ and not "Oh, cool! Can't wait for season two!", tells me this showrunner has no idea how to write or manage this story!
Man, AJ's take on Perrin's story arc in the show was priceless! Like you Hillary, I thought I could be convinced this was an ok story arc for him, to speed things up, but no, it fell flat. I really felt that he should've taken part in more battles, carrying his trusty axe, which he loathes to use every time it comes out. But no, he does nothing for the rest of the season, even with wolf brothers on his side. A lot of non-book readers were _very_ intrigued in learning what his connection to the wolves was...to no avail, (this season anyway). I agree 100% with you in that this should've been one of the story arcs that should've closed with a hook in the season finale. Instead, at this point I wonder if most non-book reader viewers even remember he had a thing going with the wolves?
Funny thing regarding the Perrin, Egwene and Rand love triangle...I read the leaked first episode script and this triangle is presented in the first episode, giving Laila more screen time showing some jealousy towards Egwene...so, if it had stayed in show the love triangle wouldn't have been as abrupt and jarring. When they cut it from the first episode they should've rewritten the Fal Dara scene. Yet another sign of how weak the writing, or at least the decisions therein, is in this series.
AJ's comments on so many plot holes, inconsistencies and mistakes is so bang on. Also asking if they actually know what they're doing, I really don't think so. Anytime I read or hear Rafe talking about the show I have to sincerely ponder, "did he watch the same show we did?!?!?!". Rafe ain't no master story teller, that's for sure! (Sorry for picking on Rafe so much, I'm sure as a person he a swell fellow, but I just truly don't think he has the experience or knowledge needed to pull of story telling of this magnitude). You guys comments on how very small details can add so much to the lore is spot on and would, in fact, be good writing which, evidentially, we're lacking here. AJ's a smart guy, I like all his points of view and that he saw it for what it was, standalone as a show, poorly written.
Oh, I loved that your brother-in-law hated the Warder funeral scene...this was one of the biggest departures the show made that I loathed because it was completely opposite of what Warders were like. And didn't contribute to the overall story. The weight of the Aes Sedai Warder bond could've been done shorter and more poignantly. Adam's prediction for Moiraine and having her magic healed by Rand would actually be awesome! Also, it'd make sense because the shield blocking her was weaved by a man, so Rand figuring it out and restoring her connection would be pretty epic! Also, his idea of men and woman coming together for something epic....very good idea. (Booker readers be like, **snicker**).
I really hope you follow up on your channel with your friend Brandon after he's read book one, really interested to here his thoughts then!
Just...absolutely agree with EVERYTHING you said. I've only read a few interviews from Rafe and just get such a bad vibe, and I feel guilty for saying that, so I feel a little better knowing someone else feels the same. It seems that he REALLY feels like he knows what's best and is proud when book readers don't like something. Instead of trying to bridge a gap - hey book readers, this might be hard, but trust me it'll pay off - he almost throws it in our faces with glee. While...relying on us to spread the word about the show and even help our friends understand what the eff is going on.
And I totally did laugh when Adam said he wanted them to come together for something epic. I was like...well YOU GET THAT IN THE BOOK!
I think it's extremely telling that Sanderson didn't get to see episode 8. Him watching it live is awkward lol you can tell he doesn't understand a lot of the choices. But like did ANYBODY who reads fantasy check out episode 8? You NEVER bring people back from the dead! That's just like...an any production rule!
Just from that story about the WOT expert we can know he is not a swell fellow. That is just unprofessional and sadistic. Wouldnt be surprised if he has alegations of improper conduct
Great points overall. It seems that there is a big comparison with Game of Thrones. I agree with AJ from his perspective. Also interesting with Brandon was his favorite characters weren't the main characters. Adam had some great contributions as well. I agree with the 6 rating. Great thoughts.
Yeah, I wonder if his favorites will change once he reads the book...or if the show will influence him in that way
This was really interesting, thank you. However, during the interview with AJ and “it’s only a show” , it’s true, but I stay strong in my resolve that Rafe has done a bad job. I had a bitter hashtag #WokeOfRafe instead of wheeloftime for a reason… I would not give them a covid-pass of it. I think you did a splendid job with these interviews. The meltdown you mentioned in the first interview… I had the same, but all over.. I strongly agree with totally fine with the actors, but again - the changes for no apparent reason to characters and storyline… your brother-in-law put it true - will not be there for season two - and I tried hard to look as a non-reader - four times over for all episodes … 😂. Go books! I hope Rafe finds something he’s in my opinion better at than this. I enjoyed the guesswork on what’s on the horizon - because it’s obvious it’s not more than briefly based on wot :).
I'm going to give season 2 a try but going to give myself the grace to quite at any time and not see it through. There's a chance it'll be so different that it won't even be possible for me to list the differences between it and the book anymore lol
Did anyone watch the Origins animated shorts that were connected to most of the episodes? Because they fleshed out many of these questions about the lore and backstory. Curious if no one ever watched them since initially Amazon had them buried in X-Ray content that no one ever seems to know to look for.
I doubt anyone watched them (I did but I read the books so didn’t need them lol). But I stand firm that you shouldn’t need extra content to understand a tv show. The average viewer doesn’t look at extras!
I'm glad I managed to finally read wheel of Time a year ago, so it was just fresh enough to know everything in the books to compare the show, but not so married to the series that I'd make a fuss about changes. A lot of the changes I can agree with in principle, but not so much in practice; such as Thom Merrilin being introduced later let us not get overwhelmed by new characters, and he comes back when relevant to the story, but on the other hand, his personality doesn't hit the same, and I didn't feel as much of a connection to the boys since he wasn't around as long (and they should have had the boys recognize him from a previous time he came the two rivers so they would have a reason to trust him, rather than being a complete stranger)
"Without further dedue" 😅 three houses immediately came to mind.
Fantasy folks: I need your help. Years ago I was being held captive over a trifling matter. While there I found a book with no cover. I started reading it out of boredom. I was not yet into fantasy stuff, this was actually one of the first books I had picked up since I was 14 lol. I don’t remember much about it except the main character was named Bralt or Brock or something similar. He was like a badass that killed monsters.
I don’t know if that was his main thing or if it was just how the book started out. The mental imagine the book painted was of a guy crossing a shattered plain type thing. Like bunch of flat topped buttes in a desert like area. He had to go from plateau to plateau and ran into a beast or monster of some kind. I don’t know if I read further into it or what happened but that’s all I remember and I’m so intrigued. I want to find this book again and see what’s up. Heeelp!
Some of what you are saying sounds like Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson. The plateaus of the Shattered Planes and there is a large creature that dwells there.
The name and overall description does not sound like that though.
If you're on reddit there is a subreddit designated to helping people find books with limited info like this! Otherwise...this isn't ringing a bell for me.
When I was trying to think of the area described in the mystery novel it kinda reminded me of the shattered plains in Way of Kings, except I picture the WoK shattered plains to be grey and dreary.
The image I got from that mystery book was more of a desert, yellowish orange type feel.
This novel seemed fairly old, I’d guess I was reading it in like 2011 and it had some wear and tear. Another book that I found in that place that really hooked me was one of L.E. Modesitt jr books from the saga of recluse. It’s possible the book I’m looking for is one of his.
I don’t remember if the writing was at all similar as it was all just words to me at the time.
One day mystery novel...you cannot hide from me forever.
Thanks bookborn I will try to figure out reddit and request some help.
Every couple years I waste an hour or two searching random things and reading parts of books trying to find this one.
I imagine it’s a pretty low key book or my memory of it is spotty. I feel like the dude’s name is Bralt, braldt, but it must not be.
I remember thinking the name was silly and conjured the image of an Eastern European body builder from the 80s.
You have to do another episode after they read the first book! And then another after they read book 2 and watch season 2 as well so we can see how their views change in relation to the original material.
Ok I wrote that comment while I was 15% in the video.. I thought they would rate the series a lot higher than they did lol So.. yeah.. we all agree then it was mediocre at best.
Yeah I think it's a super bad sign that non-readers with no skin in the game also just thought it was mediocre. I will for sure have Brandon back on once he reads the book! And AJ if he doesn't read TGH before season 2 lol
I have read them all, twice. And watched the show. I respect your opinion and your friends. I absolutely loathed the books. Every single one of them. For multiple reasons. I agree with you first interviewee. Thom was the only character in the book and the show I could stand for any length of time. In both the books and the show.
Have a good day.
Haha I can’t believe you read the entire series twice if you hated it! I don’t think the books are for everyone so I get it!
@@Bookborn I read them waaaaay back in the day when I was in college. The 13th or 14 book had just been published and a female friend of mine encouraged me to read them. (We weren't really dating at the time but she was really cool and way cute so... I read them) Sadly I hated them, and thus our love wasn't to blossom. But she's still a friend so I don't blame her. But then fast forward to 2020 and I was stuck at home for two solid years! So what's a slightly nerdy not at all middle aged guy to do... I read them again. Surely they couldn't have been as bad as I remembered. Well they were, and don't call me Shirley. Lol.
But I do appreciate your channel and the fact that we all have different views. So keep being awesome ma'am.
Oh my god, I can't believe how old I am. I just had to check to make sure I was right. It was book 7. Book seven was out and book eight came out like a month after I started reading them. Tragic, just plain tragic.
With regards to the Aiel veil raising conversation with AJ, throughout the books no Aiel characters are always surprised how, like magic, the Aiel raise their veils before fighting without missing a beat. The only reason they showed her face was to show the actor. The pregnancy or labor wouldn't have hampered an Aiel.
It worked in the sense that it got me interested enough in its world to read the books. But in doing so, it also became incredibly frustrating upon rewatching after reading the books.