Dive Fatality - my fault?
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- čas přidán 24. 05. 2024
- Was it my fault someone died in a accident because I refused to train him?
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Thank you for rocking the t-shirt Achim!
I think that holding you accountable for not supporting a dangerous quest from this diver is ludicrous, and unfortunately history is filled with hundreds or thousands of stories from people who are absolutely relentless about a conviction and are willing to pay the ultimate prize to see it through. Of course, the smart thing to do is to listen to those who you look up to and have more experience than you which is I think where the biggest disconnect was. If he really looked up to you then he should’ve understood he wasn’t ready and earn that right.
Funny coming from you guys…
The widow was playing the victim, denying the fact that her husband was an idiot plain and simple. It would not have mattered if you would have trained him or not, this guy was going to do stupid things one way or the other. It would have been worse if you trained him, then the widow would really have gone after you. You can't fix stupid, all you can do is sit back and watch. Your professional opinion and advise to him was spot on, I think you dodged a bullet on this one.
I kinda winder if the guy left his widow without much financial and she was looking for some deep pockets to get a pay out?
Certainly not your fault, not only you acted ethically and followed your principles, but you made more difficult to that man to get in a dangerous situation.
This is quite sad. I think you did the right thing by refusing to take him in for training. That was in itself a strong message that he should not attempt to do what got him killed. I am always happy when I receive real feedback. I had failed a couple of GUE courses (and damn, they were expensive...) before I eventually passed them. I am very grateful to the instructors who failed me when they had to and gave me the thumbs up when I correctly performed. The reason I mentioned the agency above is because you said "with another organisation", which reminded me how important it is for an agency to keep an eye on its instructors and quality.
You where 100% correct telling him that.
When you mentioned trimix, out of shape and a smoker, I was already like "ok this is sketchy". When you said he had no prior technical diving experience, I was even more like "wtf". When you said it was a zero to hero ADVANCED trimix course, I was shocked. Who in their right mind would ever teach a recreational diver a zero-to-hero advanced trimix course? That is perhaps one of, if not the dumbest decision I have ever heard about in scuba diving.
I have TDI trimix cert from training obtained from a cave diving couple, good friends of mine, in 2008....here in northern California, USA. I never wanted to cave dive, nor do wreck penetrations, nor pursue advanced trimix. I obtained basic open water cert in 1976, NASDS. I mostly dive these waters and British Columbia; drysuit, Thermalution assisted, and 12mm custom hood. I "knew" my limitations 20 years ago. I am 71 now and weigh 72 kg. Just commenting, as I fully appreciate your discussion and agree with your philosophy.
Rob Stewart(2017) comes to mind..
By all accounts that was a zero to hero CCR course that seems like it was rushed so he could film what he needed to.
@@dylansmith9215 I swore off zero to hero when I was diving last year and rushed getting my gear together in Sidemount. Got to the water and realized I forgot to zip up my wetsuit, grab my computer and fins. Lesson on rushing through anything will only cause problems. I think that translates nicely to not rushing through one of the more dangerous extreme hobbies out there 😅
O to hero training exist for instructor too ! to bring you from introdiver up to Tec instructor ! Crazy world ...
As a diver who is TECH60 CCR and starting my TECH100 course, I have a goal in mind so I might not be objective all the time. That is why the instructor is so important to say "no" if during my learning there is a deficiency identified. Instructors have a duty to be safe and you uphold that. In this time of perceived entitlement I am glad that you and my instructor will hold the standards and keep me and the industry safe. I choose to shop until a Yes that is my problem. Great videos. Thanks
Love that you're rocking a Dive Talk t-shirt. I look forward to seeing the colab. :)
Every diver is responsible for their own safety. This includes physical and mental fitness, gear selection and maintenance, dive planning, training, and selecting their instructor. If the instructor says you’re not ready… you’re not ready.
Think how bad you would have felt if you HAD trained him, then he died.
You were absolutely correct and you did the right thing. A man like that shouldn't even be diving recreationally. He's risking his buddy on every dive. Whoever agreed to train him should have his trainer's license revoked.
You did the right thing. He came to you for your expertise which included giving him sensible advice on his health based on your experience. He got that for free! Instead of graciously receiving the message, his ego boiled over - also not a good character trait for a diver. Unfortunately, it was an accident waiting to happen. P.S. 15 years ago I logged around 500 odd recreational scuba dives, was a great experience. Now I'm also overweight and smoke. Selbe Schuld. These days I simply dont dive.
I think it's the widows fault more than any body else, you have the right to say no to any customer with a good reason of course. She couldn't say no to her husband even by the look of things that he told her about the conversation between you too. It is sad how people approach diving. You are a good man and great instructor (I am following your channel for the last 5 years).
It's a sad story indeed , a story of bad decisions and recklessness that costed a life. And a grieving widow trying to find answers in the wrong places. You on the other hand are absolutely not to blame . I remember a quote I heard once that goes like that " ego is the biggest killer in diving "
Hi Achim, interesting to hear your story. It is a sad one, but certain things that happen are sometimes out of one's control and I am convinced your decision was correct as to what you describe without a slightest doubt. That guy was clearly lacking basic prerequisites and basically committed a suicide. The parameters that can/could in that situation be adjusted from your side is perhaps the amount of diplomacy and pedagogy you put into the conversation with a person like that. He must certainly have a fairly small amount of self-reflective capacity and even general rational judgement to do the following two things: (1) come into your shop and start arguing with you in a conflicting manner rather than choosing to listen, reflect, accept the short-term output and sleep on it; and (2) heading for a very deep technical dive straight out of his first technical training, and doing so alone. The second part sounds pretty crazy and hazardous even for an experienced and in-shape technical diver, not to consider that kind of profile you described (that's just way off the map unwise and suicidal). Also, the fact that his widow writes to you in an insinuating manner suggesting that his fatality was your responsibility is 100% ridiculous (she likely does not have a very sane judgement either). Although such a letter seems pretty much worth ignoring; if it happened to me, I would probably attempt to politely reply to her explaining the matters, hoping she would understand.
Myself I started to look into technical diving, and the first serious step I did was to order a bunch of comprehensive books on it (like Mark Powell's books on Deco and Tech). Without having read through these, I would simply not proceed with practical steps such as getting gear and booking courses, the less going for a tech dive. Going as far as what you described about the case must require a staggering amount of ignorance from the person; and pretty completely disregarding the hazards present in serious diving.
Not your fault bro, I have experienced the same, you are absolutely correct as a fellow instructor I stand with you.
Auf keinen Fall war das Ihr Fehler. Sie haben es ja aufgrund Ihrer Erfahrung und Einschätzung abgelehnt.. mit Recht. Und die Entscheidung war ja offensichtlich richtig. Alles weitere hat dieser Mensch sich selbst zuzuschreiben. Ich kann verstehen das man bestimmt auch mal angepisst sein kann wenn jemand einem die Wahrheit ins Gesicht sagt, aber wenn man ehrlich genug zu sich selbst ist dann wird man akzeptieren oder einsehen das Mann was Tun muss. Aus Faulheit oder gar Dummheit einfach Dickköpfig loszumarschieren birgt halt solche Resultate mit sich.
Ich hoffe das meine Instruktoren mir auch ins Gesicht sagen wenn etwas eine Nummer zu Hoch für mich ist. Mann kann immer drauf hinarbeiten.
Immer weiter so.
Hi Achim! In my opinion, you gave him the right instructions. after the interview, I would have asked myself whether I shouldn't work on my form and bad habits first. Unfortunately, there are people who are resistant to advice...
A bit offtopic... will there be a video published of you testing your restored submarine in the lake? i would love it...
or did I somehow missed part 9?
greetings
Instructor myself, got into tec as well but still only teaching recreational.
Recreational diving in general not being very demanding, there were very few people in all my years that I denied teaching.
Now I am sure that in tec I would have rejected WAY more people, given the risks and mental and physical requirements you should meet.
Your guy sounded - sorry to say - like the classical fatality type: fairly inexperienced with only 100 dives, physically way unfit + bad health conditions, looking for deep technical penetration dives, as quickly as possible, a receipe for an accident.
Even if you are physically in top shape and well trained, I would argue that 100 dives is not enough to start doing these kind of dives, you simply lack underwater experience.
On top of that his reaction speaks for itself regarding his risk- and self-awareness.
Good call not to teach him, I would have done the same.
Finally, even if we assume that the other instructor possibly acted irresponsibly by certifying him (which we can't know for sure cause we don't how the guy was in the water eventually) it is obviously still not his fault that the guy died either.
Tec diving includes risks, including your own death, and part of the training is becoming fully aware of that.
Obviously it is the divers fault. No one can be held responsible for someone else’s actions. It is sad that he wouldn’t put in the time and effort to do it properly. I am a new diver working on my fitness training and I understand the desire to progress quickly. However, I want to progress safely so I will take my time and work hard. Also, dive talk caving videos got me interested in SCUBA and I found your channel through dive talk. Thank you for the quality content:)
You did the right thing. That was unfair of his widow. He was an adult and was responasible for his own safety and choices. He could've come back to you after improving his health and experience but was too focused on doing it right now to accept feedback.
Absolutely you made the right decision.
You were in the right of course. Now "I don't think he should dive at all" is more of a statement I would leave to a physician to make, but he most definitely should have been sticking around to recreational diving. Attempting advanced trimix dives in cold open ocean takes a lot of buildup which he was clearly not physically let lone mentally ready for.
100% with you on that.
You likely had the ability and opportunity to perhaps influence and/or educate him, if you chose to take that role, but it's not really what you set out to offer as a service/product in most cases. His death is not your 'fault', but you perhaps could have prevented it- you could, potentially, have taught him to change his ways, improve his health, reach the goal gradually- or you could have taught him this was not the right activity for him if he wasn't interested in changing... maybe, but those are not roles you were obliged to fulfill
You gave him the advice.
He wasn’t ready for that level of training.
For rec training, as long as the doctor says they are good, I’m happy. The medical liability is on the doctor.
For tech training I want the doctor AND my judgment. Experience, qualifications, medical issues, equipment, attitude, reason for training.
He went to a sub par instructor because he was too ignorant to follow your advice.
And your concerns were clearly warranted as he ended up killing himself.
People forget that diving is a dangerous sport and is only made safe by the training.
Das fällt natürlich unter Eigenverantwortung. Wenn keine Selbstreflexion vorhanden ist, helfen auch keine klaren Worte. Die Ehefrau hat in ihrer Trauer sicherlich nur versucht das Unfassbare irgendwie erklärbar zu machen. Die befand sich in einer psychischen Ausnahmesituation.
Trotzdem macht man sich natürlich Gedanken, ob das nicht zu verhindern gewesen wäre.
I think you were 100% correct not to train him and also there was nothing else you could have done to prevent his death in my opinion. Ppl like this do not listen to reason if they have their mind set on something.
P.s. awesome to see you sport the Dive Talk shirt. Woody und Gus sind awesome und dafür verantwortlich, dass ich gerade meine OWD Cert. mache. Bin jetzt 53 aber besser spät als nie lol. Habe dafür auch das Rauchen aufgegeben. War trotzdem immer sehr sportlich aber das Rauchen musste ein Ende haben…
Man, I hate hearing of fatalities in the activity I love so much RIP!
I think it is an asinine idea/thought to project liability on to you. About the only other thought would be an opportunity to coach/mentor that fellow (if he/you were open) on a better lifestyle through a different class?? I mean I do hate to just tell somebody "No, i wont train you" because at the end of the day... I think everyone should dive (given that it can be done safely), but maybe that "No" was the best option in his case.
Regardless, I hope that you do not carry this with you... you're a great instructor and you do a ton for our industry. Dive on!
Well, that was a completely correct judgement call tbh.
But it does get me thinking.
I think a lot of people are unaware of their limits in general, and how long it takes to build skills and strength to do these types of activities.
Personally, I've struggled with my health and dropped 70lbs, as I'm getting back into diving recreationally I'm finding myself pushed to my limit. It's been a very humbling and frustrating experience. It likely won't be until next your that I'm physically able to do much more then single tank dives.
I think if we had practical ways to demonstrate that someone wasn't ready for something. We might be able to foster a better environment for communicating where someone is vs where they need to be. This takes both parties though, and many of us have a hard time taking even constructive criticism.
Good call. Safety over money.
Not your fault at all.
I too said No to a lady failed a rescue diver course I did not certify her in. She wanted to go all the way to advanced Trimix as well. In the end she went elsewhere for the rescue and technical diving. She managed to stay alive, but it's all in the numbers in the end.
You are not to blame at all.
He who wants to die will find the way, with or without your help.
Tha ks for sharing that my friend.
You did the right thing. Scuba divers know about diving within their skills and experience and the buddy system. They also know the only one responsible for them is themselves. Looks like you dodged a bullet there.
💯 right...
Your judgment was in place, he should follow your instructions and guidance, with great skillful diving comes a great responsibility, you wasn’t wrong and guided him for his own interest and he should respect that decision, therefore he got the results and unfortunately it became tragedies, god bless him.
I have been in the dive business for over 50 years and, in my opinion, did the right thing by following training standards addressing observable physical concerns.
If anybody is at fault it's the instructor who took someone from recreational to technical diving that quickly. Being in shape is important, I am recreational right now and its wild to see how many people get knocked down in 2 ft surf and can't even stand back up on their own. I want to do technical diving, I understand wanting to advance quickly, but it would be dangerous for anyone to jump up that quickly, I am on a budget and that has helped me a lot I think, I have about 60 dives and I'm still regular open water, its wild to me that some people jump to advanced and then tech within a few years, It took me a good 20-30 dives where I was doing drills at the end of my dives to be able to feel completely comfortable, I imagine at each level you should space it out and really nail the stuff you learned down before going on to anything else.
Well..... so many points here. I am an old recreational diver and have been at it over 50 years. I have very good technical knowledge of diving but strongly believe you need to train to the level of diving you plan to do. Your decision to reject this individual was the correct one; besides his obvious physical condition, which was a show stopper, he clearly did not have the proper mindset to begin the process of advancing his diving. In my opinion far too many instructors are quick to take money for training when the diver has not had the appropriate experience between courses. Learning and advancing your diving is quite simple in principle. Be healthy of mind and body, get goo training from good people; dive often and build realist confidence between courses. I always enjoy your blunt; realistic content.
Nice shirt!
It amazes me that when something tragically goes wrong, that sometimes, someone always seems to think it's someone else's fault.
The widow is trying to find answers to help grief, but it's a shame she had to start pointing the finger somebody!
This certainty wasn't yours!
Hello Achim,
I cannot understand, or better said why do you ask a rhetorical question❓
1.) it is a must to reject a student who is not capable or in shape
2.) you are not responsible for anyones life but your own.
3.) if the guy would have taken your critic serious, adult and self caring he would have made a diet, stop smoking and drinking and on top would have start to do training and stretching.
=> but he did not and had a bad ego🤷🏻♂️ . . . sometimes a behaviour like this can cost your life . . .
Best wishes from Wuppertal >Lutz
If I try to rephrase the question: if you had trained him on extended range and taken the time to explain at every step why he should be modest and train physically, because he just failed the drill, with hands-on example, and ultimately fail the certification, would he then have had some epiphany and stop uncalculated risk behavior ?
First of all, he was so closed to your advice that you ended up in an argument. So my impression is that no matter how much time you would have taken, it was not a good interpersonal dynamic. There was no opening for honest/trustful relation, even if he looked up to you.
Second, many people, also outside of diving, are stuck in misrepresentations or bad habits that can harm them greatly. You are not supposed to handle that; it is intense enough to be a proper tek trainer and you need to preserve focus for this (i.e. you would become a bad one if you spent your time chasing and trying to fix such behavior).
A very obvious case but where is the limit to start technical training?
Correct in the result of not training a person who is not qualified for the training.
Maybe a little easier on the would not teach even normal advanced.
Fully justified in my opinion. And not your fault for the customers bad decisions.
I think you were 100% in your right to deny him training.
Not your fault at all, you did the right thing of course, no discussion about this. Sorry for this guy, his plan was meant to fail, and he was too weak to resist to temptations like the cigarette which I can understand is hard to resist at some point. Not everyone can dive, it is for strong people only, tough mind, and sporty conditions without needing Olympic performance.
The wife is going through the grieving cycle and one of the phases of grieving is blame.
You definitely did the right thing in putting boundaries on who you train.
Imagine your guilt if you had trained him and he died after you trained him.
Of course not. You did the right thing. I’ve turned students away who were out of shape and have no regrets about it. Sorry to hear it, but as adults, we make our own decisions and the consequences are ours alone.
The result is probably gonna be the same even if he's trained by you, but in that scenario things wouldn't be as simple as receiving one letter.
You absolutely did the right thing. This guy was heading for a Darwin award and nobody was going to stop him. The widow has a cheek that is almost beyond believable to try and blame you for this.
Wow this is intense... I hope the weight of this overly affect you, correct decision all the way
Correct decision
When a blind man approaches a driving instructor and asks to obtain a driver's license, the instructor will reasonably refuse him. If the blind man then manages to acquire a license at a fair and subsequently drives and causes an accident, the driving instructor cannot be held responsible. That said, you could have offered the man an intensive VIP training course lasting one or two years. This would have included, in addition to diving techniques and fitness, bringing his body weight to a normal level and quitting smoking. For about €100,000 to €200,000? ;-) Some people think that only the goal counts. It's sad when things turn out this way.
I don't think it is anybody's fault. Who knows what happened to him, it could happen to anyone, even highly advanced in shape diver. RIP to that person.
Obviously not your fault.
Anything other than your real opinion would have been a disservice to him. You gave it and it was obviously the right call.
I have a feeling you were not the only one that turned him down because surely there were other instructors of satisfactory calibre that this obviously cashed-up guy could have went with.
The more I talk to people online the more surprised that there isn't a lot more dead divers. I've just spent two days explaining basic concepts to people doing 40m solo dives on a single cylinder with no redundant gas source, barely any understanding of diving physics, no gas planning or dive planning skills... But really, I've just wasted my time because some people cannot be taught because they don't want to learn.
Definitely glad you didn't swallow that grenade with the pin pulled out of it... then the widow hunting around for free cash after the fact- probably didn't care. Where's muh moneh!?
To blame the person who refused to deliver the lessons is a new low- but these days nothing surprises me.
In my opinion you did correctly. Everybody learns how about the importance of a healthy lifestyle affecting diving.
People that are not in shape arent for technical diving. This is no playing games and can end badly obviously.
Its not your responsibility to kindergarden people with Bad diving practice like the man from the Story.
You tried to prevent him from making mistakes. Not your fault Achim.
To some degree I can understand the widow, probably being desperate, but she was wrong. You acted responsible.
Absolutely not your fault ! It is very sad but some poeple dont understand that there are some limits you can't play with...
Shit no. Even if he had a Dr sign off on him diving (ie: cert orgs like PADI have such a form for pre course health qualification), it takes 100's of dives to get to where someone might be qualified to step into the 100m trimix diving foray. "Fuck off" was definitely the correct response to him. Ignoring his widow's finger pointing was also correct... their lack of responsible behavior and denial of self blame... sad.
Ist Ansicht
Für ihn wäre es besser gewesen du hättest ihn bei einen Chek Tauchgang seine Grenzen gezeigt.
Dafür gibt es viele Wege.
Totally not your fault in any way.
I think the only feedback I have is, be a bit gentle in how you tell them. Maybe more angle of, “I would love to train you, but you don’t seem to be physically fit right now. Please take care of your physical shape first and then once you are fit to do X Y and Z, have the doctors approval, then we can start”
As an ex smoker, being told you need to quit smoking triggers weird neural activity and makes us defensive somehow.
The tech-diving community is a elite group of individuals who have developed skills and experience that keep them safe, even so there are fatalities. Most recreational divers are not prepared for what it takes to be a tech-diver.
Your not at fault, it would have worse had you trained him and he died. Just because someone has earned a C-card doesn’t necessarily mean they have experience to engage in such an activity as demanding as technical diving.
Some people just don’t accept advice or facts. His death was inevitable A solo 100m wreck dive first out the gate just proves his delusional state of mind
Your decision to not to teach him was right. And you even told him way it was a bad idea for him.
It isn't your fault that he didn't listen to your warnings. He was an adult with knowledge enough to know it was bad.
In these cases you always wonder what you could have done to make the outcome different. Fact is that you couldn't, and you would probably have made the same decision today. So there is no reason to worry about it, even though it is a thing we as human beings have a tendency to do.
Of course it's not your fault, as you already know. You had a griefing widow who wanted to direct their grief and anger at the death of their husband towards someone, unfortunately they chose the wrong target. The persons to blame is the other instructor who did train and pass him if he wasn't ready/suitable for making such dives, and her husband who chose to find someone else rather than get in shape.
No fault at yr side, they should have blamed the instructor who actually did the training.
Sad story though 😞
Definitely not your fault. This was the only reasonable thing to do. I wish more instructors would act like this, especially in advanced and technical paths.
Sad that he was willing to take your training but not your advice. That is already not a great precondition for an instructor-trainee-relationship.
Imagine you would have trained him and something would have happened during the training. Then people would have definitely asked why you let him in the water in his condition.
The fact that you made a whole video of the matter shows the kind of guy you are... I can tell some concern from you talking and gestual language, and not because of a lawsuit but genuine concern from the situation.
You did what you have to do, tell the guy the true requirements to try to reach the training level he wanted... a pity he didn't listen to you. But what else could you have done!? Teaching and learning work in a closed circuit team... one fail, the other is purposeless... First free lesson you gave him was get in shape and stop smoking...
I mean... Andrea Doria? That is some serious stuff that requires serious preparation... you did what you have to do, be upfront and down to Earth...
Just my humble opinion...
Cheers
It's absolutely not your fault.
An I don't blame you for not taking him on.
A possible solution might have been to ask him to go to a physician that is qualified in diving physiology, and say "This is the starting point for all my advanced diving students.
Based on the outcome of the physical, you can safely say "The physician has determined that it is unsafe for you to pursue a strenuous and demanding sport in your current physical condition.
Then the decision isn't your's, it is the expert option of a trained professional. End of story.
Not your fault. Each of us decide what to do. And when someoane tells you that you are not fit to take a tec course you should start asking yourself questions.
Not your fault, i think other instructor told about risk .
I don’t believe it is your fault at all. He was not physically or mentally capable. It is sad for the widow because she wants someone to blame. From what you said, it was not that long afterwards. I am sure if she was to look at what she wrote now she would think completely differently. You actually gave the man a warning and he did not listen.
No, never your fault.
You can’t be held responsible for the dramatic accident to the contrary. Though maybe delivered a bit bluntly (I guess culturally acceptable between 2 guys of the same country), your wise advice has obviously not been followed. You acted with honesty and integrity in the student’s best interest. But other than a lawyer’s answer to the widow’s letter and this video, maybe you have not really answered her letter: maybe her pain talked, maybe she was just trying to get your compassion, your pardon to his stubbornness? Maybe you can ask yourself why did you feel the need to post this video: i) if to teach us the right response, then it’s all good and thank you for that ii) to close the book and set things straight definitively then something might sbe missing 🤷♂️
My response to his wife would be this is your fault , you were with him when he was fat, out of shape and a chain smoker, you could have encouraged him to start taking better care of himself, you could have questioned him on his reasoning for diving, you had all the time in the world until you didn’t. I was in his live for five minutes, you were in his life for potentially a lot longer than that.
lol not you fault at all ! Be peaceful you have nothing to do with this. You didn't train him, teach him or certified him in any ways.
Not your fault, you did the right thing. It should be standard that overweight people are not allowed into diving, especially not technical diving