Fractional Distillation of Lacquer Thinner to Obtain Toluene
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- čas přidán 27. 10. 2015
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In this video we isolate toluene from lacquer thinner by fractional distillation and show some of the hurdles and difficulties with the technique.
My previous video on fractional distillation: • Using Fractional Disti...
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A wise man learns from his mistakes, an even wiser one learns from the mistakes of others. Great video.
Great video, if you want to demonstrate the time these procedures take try putting an analog clock in the background when you do time lapse segments.
Good idea!
+Nick Moore Did you make that profile picture yourself? Cause the camera lens is just the Daemon Tools icon/logo.
I made it a couple years ago to watermark video and stop it from being ripped off.
This will probably be the last video to feature fractional distillation. Once you've seen a couple you've pretty much seen them all. The only other fractional distillation heavy video i might make would feature using a Dean-Stark apparatus for azeotropic drying.
Anyway, Toluene is one of the base chemicals to make Pyrimethamine. So this is basically step 1. I'm also going to be distilling ethanol and a few other compounds, but i won't be making videos on those. My next video will likely be something on making chloroform, another chemical i need to make pyrimethamine. We'll see how things go.
anyway, happy halloween to those of you that celebrate it.
Hey Nurdrage, something something nitration nitration nitration? mmmh?
+NurdRage, on the topic of other possible apparatus for display, it crossed my mind that demonstrating use of a Schlenk Line could be rather interesting. I know I had a lot of fun with it in my inorganic lab at the university I attended and kind of wish I could use it now in my job, but the chemistry just isn't the same.
I was always intrigued at how efficient the line was at transferring volatile products, especially when utilizing liquid nitrogen around the receiving flask to condense them. They're just so very versatile for doing a large number of different experiments in a fume hood (especially with very hazardous materials - source, intermediate or final).
The one limiting factor I'm guessing is cost in this case, as I'm guessing a vacuum and inert gas source are not an issue... the glassware necessary can be, I understand.
Anyways, thought I'd share the idea. Thanks for the years of interesting videos (been following yours for a few of them); this is my first comment on YT so far, just never had the urge to comment until now.
can you do a video on the catalytic decomposition of solvents like these by copper or platinum?
+NurdRage Can you make NaK (sodium potassium alloy)?
+NurdRage I love this video! XDOh, and By the way, Why don't you study Life Science?
Nice! Just mixing the lacquer thinner with water and decanting that top layer off was actually good enough for my purposes. Chemistry life hack!!
The trick to best separation is useing an inert high surface filling for the insulated column, to create more theoretical bubble plates by increasing the wetted surface area. Just use stainless steel potscrubbers, they are killer. The second best is ceramic raschig rings, they are expensive and not as efficient, but they will withstand exposure to acids. The next trick is to use either liquid or steam management to have control over the amount of reflux occuring, or the amount of liquid collected. Done right you can achieve, for example, an ethanol content of 96.5%Vol. The effects are separation will be much more defined and effective, while the yield increases by creating less waste. I love distillation, a lot! :-)
Strange looking back at the first steps. Glad to see this entire journey through. Congratulations NurdRage.
bet the room smells awesome
@Tate Ian Bots will be bots huh
@Laurine Coache Same with this one, obv
@@getmeoutofsanfrancisco9917 bruh
Brain cancer here we come
Toluene smells so dang strong although kinda nice.
I was looking at my calendar and Toluene Day is right after Nitric Acid Day! :D
And what does this two compound mix ?
@@thibaultdherbaisdethun1044 Eventually? Nitrogen and carbon dioxide and water. Don't worry about it.
@@htomerif aw ouf, i think tout are going to make trinitro-idk🤔
htomerif I got it, eventually
You never cease to impress me.
In regards to your list, you could also get a better separation by using a roto vap - assuming you have one of those on hand. They're a little expensive, but are incredibly effective at separating out compounds and you wouldn't have to worry about the height limitation of your workshop/lab.
Videos on determining (1)the purity of the distilled toluene, and (2) the contents of flasks 2a and 2b would be interesting.
Watching your videos makes me wish I'd taken more Chem classes in college. Clearly, Chem 101 was just to weed out the impatient before they let us see anything cool.
Hell, if the chem teacher had just set up a fractional distillation rig and fractionally distilled something really simple and easy, like, I dunno, water and something, and just let us newbs watch it, it probably would have inspired a lot more people to stick with it further.
Instead, we got a lot of dry theory and math math math, without ever seeing any of the hardware.
+ShadowDragon8685 I agree, chemistry is a tough subject to teach on just paper. Oh well, at least the internet helps to bring those experiments to you. It's not as good as real life demonstrations, but it's the next best thing.
I had the same problem with math. I hated math until I found a practical application for it in electronics engineering. Now I love it. Imagine learning complex numbers, trig and algebra in the context of a real life application you enjoy. It helps it make a lot more sense and motivates you to learn more.
Yea. I personally learn best by actually doing things, and once a practical application is applied to a subject matter (such as math), something in my brain clicks.
What would otherwise be abstract concepts tend to just blow right over my head unfortunately.
Recochems 'gluerid', or such joinery or carpet glue solvents are usually 90% Toluene.
Now THAT was an EXCELLENT video!!
+Brian Streufert "An excellently excellent comment"
He should have measured the density.
Love your video very helpful
Thank you for your informative video PLZ KEEP IT GOING
So, if you ever venture over the border and find yourself in an ace hardware...
You can buy toluene by the gallon as a paint thinner from a company called klean-strip. They sell a variety of products for paint thinning, wood staining, and stuff like denatured alcohol. according to the MSDS it's pure toluene.
$20 US for a gallon.
you could also order it online if you wanted to. Don't know what the shipping would be like but it does seem like a fairly good price. I bought some for making sulfur crystals and it works as one would expect toluene to.
Hey NurdRage, the hardware store I work at sells toluene. we get shipments of it every couple of weeks
That's the same brand I bought and extracted the 2-butanone and toluene. I used the toluene to make benzoic acid (oxidized it with KMnO4). I used the 2-butanone to make hydrazine sulfate but I messed it up. Later on, 2-butanne (MEK) became available at Canadian Tire, 946 mL for 12$.
I extracted my toluene from carburetor cleaner. I just realized I did not want to go through the pain of fractional distillation so I added the same volume of water to the carb cleaner. Separated the toluene and distilled it. The forerun boiled over very quickly and it was discarded. The toluene came over semi slowly until I insulated the distillation setup. Then it was finally able to comer over at a good rate. Despite having broken glass pieces to act as boiling chips, the toluene was weakly boiling and sometimes would just bump a bit. It wasn't super vigorous but it would shoot a large amount of vapor into the condenser. My setup was able to handle it but I was a little worried. I had all fire safety protocols on hand though so I wasn't too worried in the end. The toluene finally distilled nicely and the yield from one $2 can of SuperTech carb cleaner (toluene is 10-30%) was about 75mL of pure toluene. It was probably still a little wet but it wasn't something I was really worried about. Considering my next quantity of available toluene is $20 dollars for a giant jug I have little use for, 75mL for 2 bucks isn't bad.
Next step is mono nitration muahahahaha
I'm not making TNT though :(
I'm making ethyl p-aminobenzoate! :)
Aka Benzocaine.
Thank you, you made a video for a way to get toluene by easy way(by available chemicals used for home).thank you very much
Where is the clip?
You got a new subscriber! !
Hey nurdrage it would be awesome, and probably cheap and convenient if you made a video describing your glassware, what its called, used for and briefly why. Thanks.
DUDE! i don't know your name yet but one day I'd love to meet you... your videos have brought me so much closer to chemistry than I ever was. I've now changed all my classes to honors chem and AP chem just cause I want to learn all these awesome things just like you. and yea I'm like 15 but no MATTER. I've already done 3 of your lab examples on my own and used your videos for instruction. you are the best! and I can't thank you enough! have a great day nurdrage! nerd out!
Did you end up doing chemistry in college?
the best way to tell chemicals apart is by taking a nice, hearty swig straight from the flask. just make sure it's at a good temperature for safe consumption!
Gally That's how they did it old school
Can you do a video on obtaining THF over the counter? It is found in PVC solvents but it is mixed with acetone and I can't figure out how to separate them. Certain grignard reactions won't work with diethyl ether and need THF. The acetone would react in a grignard reaction though so it's important to get it out.
+NurdRage i have gotten Toluene at my local Ace.. I use it for cleaning glue off tools when putting down Formica.
Can you get a better separation by fractional freezing the mixture?
Would it be feasible to perform a vacuum distillation and separate all of the azeotropes?
I have done this before with Slovakian Brand S6001 lack thinner. From 960ml i got around 400ml of Toluene before I run out of coolant. I have to complete the process some day... In the Lack thinner, there should be around 75% Toluene and the rest ist Kerosene and higher carbon hydrates. Because the Boiling points of the ingredients are so different, I doesn’t needed a fractional distillation. The temperature didn't changed so I guess I distilled clean Toulene. BTW: you get 960ml S6001 for 2.35€ so its very cheap.
One can always test the methyl ethyl ketone with a 2,4-DNP test in the fractions, right?
@NurdRage Does 200mm and 300mm vigreux column has different uses?
Cheers from Brazil dude! Love your videos!
You should try electrolysis of moltem salts like Sodium Hidroxide and collect the alkali metals :D
NaCl(l) maybe?
Could you do a video on how to make DDT? That would be cool!
It would be preferable to use an actual boiling flask and a sand bath/heating mantle/metal block. If something were to happen, and the glass broke, a bad situation would arise. Though I'm one to talk, I Macgyver reactionware all the time. I also have no glassware sponsor:(
"No, you wouldn't cook in that Jessie. That's for general mixing and titrations! Did you not learn anything from my chemistry class?"
Walter White
(WW is not a source. Source: college.)
You should begin a fundraiser to buy a rotovap apparatus... It would be neat to see videos concerning its use...
NurdRage! Will you make videos about sinthesis Graphene from Graphite
How pure are those Toluene flasks really, like 99%?
The start is the great crusade!
Would a snyder column work better than the insulated vigruex for this appliction?
I would try a packable column. Just get us really long liebig column with a fairly large center tube and stuff it with a bundle of glass tube
What is the length of the vigreux column that you are using ?
How did you build your fume hood? What is ducted?
toluene can be bought as toluene at ace hardware.
Correct, in 2020 I am still able to buy it in Canada. I use it as an octane booster for gasoline in my motorcycle.
I think this was more of a video to explore the chemistry as in some countries you dont havr access to toluene
Not everywhere unfortunately
hmmm yes this toluene is toluene
I bet it’s not available anymore as pure. I remember cops episode from the 90s where junkies were houghing that shit out of cans, and this vid was sketchy so I looked it up and it’s a major part of making crystal meth so I bet the govt doesn’t allow pure toluene available at hardware stores
can you do a video on vacuum distillation?
I'm curious for the reason for doing this instead of picking it up at the hardware store? -- Is it not available in some locations? (This is my best guess is that some places just do not sell it for some 'reason' ? -- It is cheap and purchased by the gallon for thinning specialty paints/epoxies.
I am trying to separate ethanol from ethyl rubbing alcohol that I got at a pharmacy, but my distillation keeps bumping. I added some broken glass to serve as boiling chips but they didn't help very much. I don't know what to do and I need help.
Doesn't this mean you could upgrade any fractionating column's resolution capability with some insulation?
+NurdRage I don't want to hamper this great video because _everything_ here is something the aspiring home chemist needs to know, but home hardware has a claimed 100% toluene sold as 'toluol'. Home hardware is great because they have their own full MSDS database :)
NurdRage! Will you make videos about chemiluminescence? ))))
+Eye Glitch Already have, years ago actually. My most famous video is "Make Glow Sticks - The science"
+NurdRage I saw it! ;-) Honestly your chanel is my favourite! The greatest chemical chanel ever! Thanks for answering!
I'm no expert on the matter, but damn man, you've gotta invest into a steel work table.
Did you ever get that fumehood set up?
Also, some steel sheets on the wall would look super nice! Stay safe man
It may not matter much, but your clamp could be wicking away heat from the column as well.
Do you have to have a fractionating column?
I find canada (Atleast my corner) is horrible for over the counter chemicals. Last time I saw pure toluene sold it was the last 4 gallons that a store was getting rid on special and that was over 12 years ago. Now you only find it in mixes. I finally saw a store recently that sold MEK, which before that I only saw in the US. I understand your pain lol.
Wouldn't packing your column give it better resolution and greater resistance to overloading? There are fancy materials but I understand glass marbles work reasonably well.
yes and no, you get better resolution but it becomes highly susceptible to overloading.
Is this your real voice or is it modulated?
If so could you suggest a program for me?
flame/color test of the azeotropes?
I think 2a is probably fairly pure MEK, it’s probably combination of the pressure and your thermometer
So... When are you going to nitrate the toluene?
He doesn't need to nitrate it to make pyrimethamine.
I would like to see that happen, thrice
@@channalmath8628 yes, thrice would be nice.
A trinitration is sadly very difficult. Getting two nitro groups on the toluene is semi easy and pretty doable but the last one is a PITA. Anhydrous acids and high temps and long reaction times. Hard for the amateur. The creator of explosionsandfire had to nitrate his dinitrotoluene THREE times and only got a 40% yield.
@@channalmath8628
Thrice is the charm
Your tutos are amazing. I am spanish and it's hard to me to cach every english spoken words. Would it be possble to make some subtitles version of thos great videos?
+martiarenax3 Actually most of the videos are subtitled. Just click the subtitles icon to turn them on. :)
mmm... i supose you are talking about the automatic google subtitles sistem. hahahah... mmm... not really usefull system thatone... Ok, i am going to take a look anyway but my hope is not so glad about it.
Ok, it works well. Thanks mate!
Could this method be use to clean dirty lacquer thinner (as used to clean a spray gun) by fractionally distilling the parts leaving the impunitys in the booling flask and then recombining the fractions, I know there are industrial units for this but don't use enough to spend the money on one and don't have the space, and it would be better to clean and reuse thinner than throwing away after one use
+theguru18 I think so. (i've never reused redistilled lacquer thinner so i'm not 100% certain).
+NurdRage thanks for the reply I'll have to get the gear and try
@@theguru18 just simple distillation is better in your case,
With this setup how much % pure you can get toluene.. Is it in between 95 to 99 %
hey nurdrage im in college and in chemistry there is 1 thing that im curious about, about alcohols. lets say that i make my own alcohol mixture from whatever, and then i distill it, i will get ethanol and methanol as my final product(also water). is there any way i can know how much methanol% and ethanol% i will get ?(alright im not gonna make my own alcohol and drink it, its so cheap to buy from shops anyways, im curious about how companies do this who sell alcohol drinks).
and also how do i get the methanol separate from ethanol, if i want to use them in something? methanol boils at 65 degrees, and ethanol 78,37, so can i basically get the methanol first at 65, and then heat it up to 78 to get ethanol seperate? im just wondering how do the companies do this(who make drinkable alcohol, like absolut vodka) without getting methanol in their final product? i know this sounds like i want to distill alcohol and drink it, but as i said its pretty cheap to buy and i would never trust my ability to do my own alcohol to drink it, there are risks at that which im not willing to take
+bastard good quality drinking alcohol is made by controlled fermentation, and the amount of methanol that gets formed is very small, so they dont have to do anything fancy extra to remove methanol, because there is so little in there, or if there is some methanol they just throw away the first 1-10% of the distillate, that will get rid of the methanol
testing the results? bp, refraction, ignition, gravity, etc?
was it your intent to distill off the individual solvents? Could you have set the temp. for 90°c, and just driven off all the other solvent and retain toluene in the original flask? Could you explain why the fractionating colum doesn't have cooling applied to it?
+Matt S. Yes, as he stated in the video, he wanted to keep the impure methanol for later.
+Mark Rose I realized the question was irrelevant as I watched further into the video
How pure do you expect the end product to be and what will you do with it?
+everene1 As said in the video, i'm synthesizing pyrimethamine.
+NurdRage how pure do you expect the pyrimethamine to be (comparable to pharmaceutical grade?) and what will you do with it once it is synthesized.(throw it away?)
Maybe try growing sulfur crystals in the toluene and timelapse it?
What are the tubes running from the condenser connected to? Air?
Cold water.
How can I separate isobutanol from toluene?
nurdrage are there any free distillation software online that will allow you to plugin chemicals and data and will tell you what the expected azeotrope etc are
there are predictors, but they can be horribly wrong at times. Best thing to do is to actually search empirical data.
Thank you!
How about trying to identify the substance with the boiling point of 82 C? It might be some sort of inactive ingredient - very interesting to know.
+Keldor314 Isopropanol or an ether most likely.
@@MichaelClark-uw7ex heptane?
Couldn't the 81 to 82 deg C fraction be indeed MEK but your thermometer is off by a degree or two?
I'd like to see a vid on the synthesis of formaldehyde.
+Jaybird196 I might get around to that someday. Probably after the pyrimethamine synthesis.
NurdRage Thanks, NR :D ! That would be awesome ^_^ !
+NurdRage Formic acid, malonic acid and allyl alcohol would also be nice. THF (apparently 1-buthanol oxidised with lead tetraacetate produces THF, see March's Organic Chemistry for reference) pyridine and pyrrole would also be nice.
Nice video
4:08 "is one of the base chemicals for making pure (methamine?)" i think i didnt understand that correctly. What did you say?
+TheRolemodel1337 Pyrimethamine (trade name Daraprim)!
thanks dude
nice pic btw ive seen it alot recently
A chemical that I have always wanted and needed to conduct some particular experiments with is hydrogen peroxide 30%. You can't buy it anywhere though. I would love to see a video on distilling hydrogen peroxide 3% into a 30% solution. Or do you know of an easier way? Thanks! Loved the video!!
+destroyerofnoob 30% available at beauty supply stores.
My gf has 35% hydro peroxide. I believe it can be found at specialty food markets or cleaning places. It is labeled food grade. Good luck!
+destroyerofnoob distillation will probably not work for hydrogen peroxide since applying heat will also accelerate the natural decomposition of the peroxide. So while you are removing water, you are also destroying the peroxide
The boiling point of hydrogen peroxide is actually higher than that of waters, so you can just boil it down. It does work, but like +pieterG159 said, it actually destroys some of the peroxide.
I have conc it up to 17% just by gentle heating. The density went from 1.000 g/cm3 to 1.03.
At the end of the first distillation run, why did you continue to distill the remainder which should have been pure toluene? Could you not have just stopped the distillation there and the main flask would be the pure toluene you were seeking?
+Mavericfso it *should* be pure, but it isn't. If you looked at the flask when i briefly showed it at the end of the distillation run, there was a gooey yellowish impurity of unknown composition. This would have remained in the toluene had i chosen to stop it.
Would it be practical to separate the ketones from the toluene by converting them to imines by addition of ammonia then adding HCl solution to produce two layers of liquid, one an aqueous solution containing the imine salts, the other pure toluene?
The problem is imines and iminium ions are hydrolysed easily, so as long as there is water present you won't be able to separate all ketones this way, some will always exist in equilibrum.
+Marcin Goławski Hmmm, suppose instead of ammonia solution you used ammonium chloride and a dehydrating salt driving the reaction to the right. Would that work?
+Libertarianist It's not very practical, the equilibrium in water isn't very favorable toward the imine. Then there is the extra work of dealing with the ammonia and the HCl. If we just wanted the toluene and could discard everything else, then it would be much more practical just to do water extraction like i mentioned in the video and a bit of distillation to get rid of any lingering impurities.
+Libertarianist what the actual scientific fuck did you just say
Take a few semesters of chemistry and find out.
How to make nc thinner for sanding sealer?
You can get brand name thermocouple probes as a sensor with +/- .25C degrees within a fairly decent operating temperature range for under ten bucks. Using an electric heating element (take apart an old hair blow dryer, or hotplate, or some shit) and an any given IC with a ADC for the thermocouple data, a PID feedback loop programmed into the IC, and then pulse-width modulate the heating element (the MOSFET is probably going to be your most expensive component). 30 bucks and youre good to go. Since you probably spent that much money on that glass to begin with, its a fairly good investment. 100 bucks for more resolution on your sensors and you've basically hacked together a few thousand dollars worth of ThermoCouple gear.
Why did you choose to forego sleeving the column? What if you lowered the pressure within the system via a vacuum pump? Would that help with a better composition of your mixture? Obviously the joules required (or kCals or whatever the fuck units you want) to hit your ideal temp will go down, but would the separation be more effective that way? (I'm genuinely curious, I never took any chemistry in college and drank my way through high school so excuse my ignorance. ). Actually, now that I had a second thought about it, I bet introducing lower pressure would be worse since all them crazy compounds will be moving at a faster rate so the mish-mash (I'm sure theres a technical term for whatever the slurry is that you extract as an intermediary between temperature intervals of separation) would be less pure.Hmm, so I guess you want to introduce more pressure and/or less heat for the best distillation?
Send 2a to an nmr spectrometer. See if there's something else in that mixture they didn't mension
Can we distillate n heptane from bestine using n heptane boiling temperature?
archpdfs.lps.org/Chemicals/Solvent-and-Thinner_Bestine.pdf
is 100% heptane
Look into vacuum distillation
years later, another youtuber would synthesize benzeldehyde from toluene with chromyl chloride
you should try this with paint gun gun wash its got a lot more
I doubt it's cheaper.
How do you ensure that none of the organic vapour catches fire??
Keep away from sparks and fires I guess.
NurdRage octane booster video be neat to many non chemistry types pouring crap in engines and lol saying it runs must work i guess
hi guys, i have a question about how to recognize aluminum oxide (alumina) by a chemically test?
Uhh does it react with HCl?
why do you destill it if the impurities are all water soluble?
ok he answered my question
How long is the fractional column? Your Liebig condenser looks tiny.
It's not about size it's about how you use it ;)
do you consider making tnt with this?
My lacquer thinner contains 30% xylene (xylol). Is it worth recovering?
Toluene or xylenes?
+Marcin Goławski Because separating xylenes is tricky. Toluene is easy, especially if you will separate together with a bit of water you will add. Toluene forms a low boiling azeotrope with water. Xylenes apparently do not.
Wht do you want toluene? Trinitrotoluene?
did you ever figure out what the 82 degree mystery fraction was?
Weird I literally tried a simple distilatio n today before watching this. Trying to isolate mek. It sat at 79 degree for about 2 second and crept up in the 80s
You should teach you how to make sodium hypophosphorus. I'm going to use it to make hypophosphorous acid.
I'm willing to bet that the 82 degree fraction is azeotrope of water and toluene which is recorded to boil at 84.1 degrees and contain 79.8% Toluene
What makes the toluene insoluble in water?
+JoeHarperr toleune is a non-polar solvent. It won't mix with a polar aqueous solvent. google polarity for further info.
@@TheAudiomasta Joe can seek Solubility Product
Would you consider nitrating some of that for a bit of fun? (Depending on the laws in your jurisdiction, of course)
+top2percent I've heard you have to nitrate it 3 times to get TNT. I'd assume you'd use a similar method to making nitrocellulose. But I would like to see him make a video on it.
+Mr.chang cooler Yes you need to nitrate it three times at different temperatures and acid mixtures. It takes quite a lot of time. I think that at third nitration you need to heat it for 3 and half hours at 80 degrees and for another hour at 100 degrees Celsius.
+jeti08 reti The third nitration also requires an anhydrous mixture of nitric acid and oleum.
+top2percent He probably couldn't honestly. Toluene is methyl benzene and its nitration occurs through electrophilic aromatic substitution. When doing EAS reactions, the substituent you add to the aromatic ring will be either activating or deactivating, which effects how well subsequent substituents will add through EAS. Nitro groups are deactivating, meaning that it is more difficult to add subsequent substituents each time you add one. To make Trinitrotoluene would therefore require very intense heating and extremely high acid concentrations (a nitric acid and sulfuric acid mixture is used to form the nitronium ions that bond to the ring) that at very least I suspect he'd be uncomfortable working with.
If I nitrate toluene do I get tnt
...
...yeah, science!