Does The Lee Factory Crimp Die Result In High SD And Poor Accuracy Ammo?
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- Many reloaders like the Lee Factory Crimp Dies. But some hate the LFCDs because they feel that squeezing the loaded rounds down causes loss of bullet tension. And that would be true if the dies were used outside their design parameters...If indeed, bullet tension was being lost, we would have bad accuracy and high standard deviations above that which regular crimp dies would deliver...Let's find out...
The mixed brass probably makes a lot more variance than we think. Even the crimp will be slightly different on each case as well as bullet seating. As long as we have realistic expectations, all is well. Stay safe, thank you again for another great video.
John Waugh - Thanks for your assessment and well wishes...You've got a good handle on it...Years ago, I shot a lot of steel competition using ammo that rang the steel at 15+ yards every time I did my job. I found out later that it was all with mixed brass and thrown charges with SDs were in the high 20s and low 30s. But I was happy until I found that out. Best Regards to ya, FC
The Lee factory crimp die is a must have piece of equipment .IMO...the post sizing is a huge advantage in my opinion.......great subject.....thanks FC....
Cmax Arms - And thanks to you, always Cmax..!! Best to ya, FC Steve
This was an interesting test. I really like my Lee Factory Crimp Dies, I plan on purchasing more in other calibers in the future. If I use RCBS dies ill seat the bullets with no crimp. The rounds will be finished off in the LFCD. FortuneCookie45LC sold me on them when I started reloading two or three years ago. So thanks!!!
My experience in pistol calibers has been identical to yours over a 4 year period when I try similar testing. I think the Lee FCD is a wonderful tool. I don't reload many rifle cartridges anymore, so I can't say much about that. Thank you for videotaping this experiment.
Thanks FC, You did a great job with your explanation and keeping it simple. I look forward to your posts. My comprehension reading has been below average my whole 70 yrs so your vids are priceless to me. I appreciate you. Great and safe holidays to you and your family.
Awesome info. For Revolver shooters a crimp die is beneficial. With out a crimp bullets can walk out of the case in recoil. When I used to shoot factory ammo in competitions I would crimp the factory ammo (9mm) because it would actually become so loose under revolver recoil that the bullets would fall out of the cylinder.
FC, kinda seems to me you have a crazy cylinder chamber. I had one with a S&W M57, always had one flier. I marked the chamber and sure enough that one cylinder thew them every time.....just curious.
wow! So many variables to concider . Interesting test to be sure. thanks FC.
Great video and great information
For truly accurate accuracy testing you must go for Cold Bore shots. To get a true and pure accuracy test every shot must be the same as the first where conditions are concerned. Barrel heat can cause a high SD. When testing my M14s and long range rifles .... I sometimes wait 4 to 5 minutes between shots.
Thanks FC, seems like I'll continue using the factory crimp in my cowboy loads :-)
I always enjoy your scientific approach when proving a theory. Like another viewer has commented, maybe you have a chamber that is throwing that shot. Could be something to look into. Cheers FC45!
FortuneCookie I normally like your videos, and I thank you for making them! That being said, I am not a factory crimp hater, but I don’t see the benefit to using one. Your numbers help to prove my point. It doesn’t improve standard deviation, and it doesn’t improve accuracy. Why bother?
The RCBS built in crimp feature in its seating die is all I need to develop the loads I want for my very diverse collection of firearms. Ballistics, pressure, consistency, and accuracy with my handloads for the past thirty years have more than met my needs and completely satisfied my handloading and gun lusts. I guess I have other things to fret about than OEM and after market crimping tools.😕
The INTERNAL volume of various brands of cartridge brass can & does deviate from one brand to another. Some do more than others.
I USED to load with mixed brass some years ago, but I now sort my brass by head stamp brand.
How about using rifles and rifle ammo? You might get different results at higher velocities. fmj bullets, and case loads.
My understanding is the FC die is to prevent the bullet moving in the case due to recoil or cartridge to cartridge contact ( like 30/30 in Winchester 94)
I reload 9mm using 115gr FMJ RN with 5.0 grs of CFE Pistol and a strong crimp with my Lee die. Although the charge is lower than what Hodgdon recommends, all of my rounds have fired flawlessly (no squibs) and maintain great accuracy. In my opinion, the Lee crimp is so robust which prevents any pressure from escaping.
What I did see with your testing is that the crimp seemed to slow bullet velocities. Do you think that not using a crimp, example in a .308 bolt action, velocities would be higher as the bullet isn't fighting against extra retention forces? I ask because I crimp all of my ammo at least a little bit for consistency.
The pistol factory crimp die and the rifle factory crimp die are different. The rifle die uses a collet, which squeezes the neck down around the bullet, giving it a TIGHTER FIT.
There are the two Lee dies the one in your test is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and the other is the Lee Collet Factory Crimp Die. There is definitely a difference. Case OAL affects crimp results on the carbide die. Too long of case applies a heavier crimp. Too short of case results in weaker crimp. The collet crimp die doesn't depend on case length as much. It's my belief that folks who run afoul with the Carbide die are shooting mixed brass, with various case lengths. The case thickness of newer Remington brass is much thinner than say PMC brass or the old WCC brass of days gone by. If you set dies too a longer than average case length in your lot of fifty or hundred cases then the other cases would receive less than Ideal crimp. If neck tension of the tired worn out brass was near the end of service life that could also led to ES issues. As carbide changing bullet diameter; entirely possible. PMC brass, a less than adequate, expander diameter, less than tough bullet alloy, and a tight tolerance Carbide ring in the die could easily resize bullets. Stacking of tolerances is a pure devil to unravel. BTW it's unfortunate that Lee can't make the collet die in 38 Special but most other calibers are available.
But the factory crimp die gives pretty nice and consistant crimp, so if you want the nice crimp without the risk of squeezing the round, just move the crimp stem from the fcd over to the powder trough die (remove the expander stem). Now you have a very nice crimp die without the squeezing. I use that all the time.
I had a problem in 223 with the lee fcd. The round would not chamber and would get stuck. Have not figured out why.
All the variables sometime "align" and sometimes they do not. Unless we are competition bullseye shooting, does it really matter.
archersfriend - I do run risks doing these comparisons - my suspicion was that there would not be any practical difference - the FCDs are so valuable to allow sure chambering and functioning... But suppose the difference was that the FCD gave groups twice as large and SDs also twice as large as the non - FCD loaded ammo...I'd have to report that as well. When it comes to alignment, if we did this test over with 10 different guns, the results would be that perhaps one test would show the FCD much better SD and accuracy and another one would show the Non FCD much better accuracy and SD and the other 8 would basically show no difference. There's a different twist on your "align" situations...Have a great day, FC
I use LFCD on my 41 and 44 mags. The 44s in my Marlin are close to 15% more accurate with the FC compared to roll crimping with the RCBS die. The bullets don't move in either carbine or revolver and are almost as hard to pull with a kinetic puller.
The FCD is best for tapered crimps like 45 ACP and 9mm. I don't use it for 38s. The 38s get a roll crimp.
Yes I know, why bother with the FDC when you can create a perfect roll crimp with the bullet seating die? The FCD is better suited for taper crimps in my opinion.
Walter Bunning the FCD only squeezes the very end. It really doesn't resize much. This is beneficial for a taper crimp whereas the round seats in the chamber by the case mouth. On a rimmed cartridge like the 38 as you probably already know, seats by the rim.
Dominic Minischetti - Interesting, I've met fans of the FCD and also haters of the FCD. And you bring out a very important point - there are actually three types of Lee FCDs - the rifle collet, the taper, and the roll FCD. You have a very practical approach - You like the taper FCD, but don't prefer the roll. And as for roll crimps look at the different types - the FCD roll, the regular rolls, and what Redding calls their profile rolls...All of these types of dies give us choices and alternatives...We use what we like and what works for us in the final analysis... Continued good reloadin' to ya, FC
Walter Bunning - Great points on the FCDs - you would make a fine ad writer for Lee...Have you noticed that Hickok45 loads his revolver cylinders and has a habit of running a thumb or finger over the rounds before he closes the cylinder? (at least he used to do that) That's because he's had rounds that required a little push to seat...With use of the FCD, we don't need that, all we do is hear that nice click as the round drops to full entry...Then he proceeds to hit the 80 yard gong 6 shots out of 6 and all I want to say is - that's mighty fine shootin' pardnah..!! Best Regards to ya every chance I get...!! FC
For all intensive purposes, for 90% of reloaders and their guns, the Lee FCD is just fine and will cause no problems.
Where the FCD can cause poor SD's and poor accuracy is going to be for the guys that either need or try to run a larger than standard bullet for a given caliber. Now whether or not it is justified, the die doesn't know that. Maybe its someone whom doesn't know better or perhaps for someone that has a gun with an oversize bore for that given caliber and it requires an abnormally large bullet to shoot well. There are most certainly guns out there that fall into that classification. I have a couple guns that prefer a larger than standard for caliber bullet. If that condition exists and depending on severity of overbore problem, the FCD can absolutely size down a bullet already seated in the case and very poor accuracy, poor chrono results, and even leading can result from this. I have actually seen this occur. Now this is a fairly obscure issue in the grand scheme of things and for the person having this problem, different dies or custom dies are probably the way to a cure.
mytmousemalibu - I really like this comment as it takes the considerations on the FCD to another tier...takes full understanding to do that...very helpful comment to all...I actually have an old 1917 Colt that was rechambered for 45 Colt and my Virginian Dragoon that has this oversize chamber throats problem...Solve that by shooting jacketed bullets in them. The bullets slug up in time to stabilize the shots... Bravo for SAAMI..!! Best Regards to ya, FC Steve
Hey, always there for a few extra considerations or to play devil's advocate frome time to time! For almost anything in life, a person can find a caveat for it! Take care Steve!
I don't know why you would use the Lee FC die unless you had a tube magazine.
That is the reason I use it.
Interesting. Somehow missed this one. I have heard a lot of good things abt the LFCD. I can't help but wonder if a different, cleaner powder might make a difference, as would uniform case length (even with mixed brass). I noticed right away in the first few shots that ES was going to be high, which of course means a higher SD as well. Makes me wonder how much your measure is varying also. Do you check every 10th charge or so to verify the accuracy of the measure? And which measure is it? Just some thoughts. Happy D Day
I think you need to change from Unique to Titegroup, using the auto drum powder measure to charge the cases, and reshoot your groups. I predict the SD's shrink in both populations.
I started with these dies because of problems loading .30/30 ammo for lever guns. Just the ticket to prevent bullet set back in tubular magazines. Progressed to buying one for every bottleneck rifle cartridge I load. One aspect of consistent crimp and shot to shot uniformity is case length. Pay attention to little details and you should reap the benefits of accurate ammo.
You are forthright in your endeavor. Try a powder that fills the case more. 4227, power pistol, and Universal are my go to pistol powders. Nothing against unique. Please try to keep your videos around 5 minutes. Most viewers pass by on longer. I fcd any pistol or rifle cartridge. Lee won shooting competitions with a k frame .38 using it as a testing ground
Norman McNeal - Hi to Norman McNeal..!! Forget the 5 min., YT tells us that most viewers only watch videos of this type for 3 1/2 minutes max. Even Hickok videos - once he explodes the first couple of 2 liters, he's going to clear the hill in every video. As good as they are, we've seen that movie before. Like golf pros, he makes it look easy. I regard it as a personal privilege when viewers tune in for however long they choose. Didn't know that R Lee competed with the K38. Competition shooters use lots of ammo and no doubt that led him to provide means for American shooters to do the same with his 6 cavity molds, TL designs, LLA, and his sizing kits. And the integrated system was topped off with his Factory Crimp Dies. Good reloadin' to ya, FC Steve
FortuneCookie45LC you have the want to that I don’t. Carry on. Read Lee’s book( first section) on why he does what he does. I have tried so hard to disprove him, and I am a better reloader for being humbled. You and Hickock45 are true. Be humble and concise. Y’all are close to concise and factual.
Spot on FC45LC. I've had discussions with the Lee FCD haters in the past. Mostly I think they just don't like Lee products. Thats okay they can pay more for for the same thing if they want.
I don't think your comparison would be 100% valid using a powder measure and mixed brass, considering that I agree that there is no significant difference. I would like to see, or I will do it for myself using non mixed brass, equally trimmed and loads measured by 2 scales to an exact standard. I can tell you that the FCD lowers SD compared to factory loaded Remington Green and White box or Winchester by 4 times but that is likely more a product of the exact powder charges.
At what distance do you shoot at the range?? Thank you my friend for the video!!
dave althoff - Those awful groups were shot at 12 1/2 yards rested -- Thankfully, the test was a comparative test, but the groups were as awful as the standard deviations...Would have been real eyeopening if either the Non FCD or the FCD groups were lights out and the other awful...That would have been very enlightening. That all the groups were alike was actually comforting...and there may need to be another test with ammo loaded for low SD (a follow up test video) instead of ammo randomly loaded with mixed brass, unsorted bullets and thrown powder charges. Have a great day, FC
I have done similar tests but at the higher end of the precision spectrum...ie using all lapua components , b/r primers , the most accurate loads for my bench rest rifle and i usually get better results using the lee f.crimp die👍👍
But recall that the rifle FCD is different from the pistol FCD. The controversy is also only with lead bullets.
Question : FC, what of effects of OAL on accuracy ? How would OAL affect accuracy, if any, in identical loads except for OAL changes. (all else the same - hope this question is clear.)
We’re the rounds loaded without the FCD
roll crimped ?
What about heavy crimping and magnum primer advice with H110 some manuals are suggesting? I just loaded my first 357 jacketed magnum rounds with some Winchester 125gr JHP bullets and can't wait to see what kind of SD and ES I get over chrony. I did use heavy crimping, although instead of 1 full turn of the die I used 3/4 turns.
With 38 special loads with heavy dose of titegroup I got Standard deviation of 3 fps and extreme spread of 7 fps :) The strange thing is that I didn't sort cases, just loaded exact amount of powder down to 0.02gr with my GemPro250 scale.
Dima Prok - Congratulations, that SD of 3 is a great achievement - was that a five shot group? 3 shot groups are not significant. There should be a reloading competition where we shoot 10 shots groups and try to get SD 0.0 (that's to the 1/10th decimal place. Now that would indeed be an achievement. Any centerfire driving bullets to minimum of 900 fps would we OK. I'd call that the 0.0 FortuneCookie45FC Reloading Challenge...but still working on that one... -- Yes to heavy crimps on your magnums...The rule is - the more powerful your ammo, the more crimp and the more critical is the crimp (as well as bullet neck tension). The crimp must be in tune with the neck tension as both work together for consistent ignition...TiteGroup powder is a powder known for good burn - however, it has also been implicated in a lot of the 40 cal Glock Kabooms (not as much recently as the factory may have tightened up the latest chambers)... Best to ya, FC
Did you take note of which cylinder fired the rogue shots? If it's always the one shooting outside the group, perhaps it isn't you.
BoomSon!! Appreciate you pointing that out. Yes, indeed... I have never made note of which chamber shot a wayward shot - I really should check that, or some just shoot five shots out of the same chamber to get around that problem... Every revolver has it's individuality it seems...and perhaps every chamber as well. Seems I have my "go to" revolvers when I really want to hit something - like my M25 S & W or my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt 5 1/2". That Ruger, to me, is a tackdriver. Perhaps these are the guns we have that don't have renegade chambers...I've always known that, but never really "considered" it before...Thanks again for making that point... Best to ya, FC
Ruger is fairly well known for having cylinder chambers vary in dimensional continuity which can easily be the source of flyers in accuracy. This is largely because of manufacturing technique employed by Ruger and practices regarding that technique. When they throat a cylinder, this is done on a machine that does all of the chambers at the same time, ie: a 6-shot cylinder is plunged by 6 reamers at the same time. That is just manufacturing efficiency and nothing wrong with that. The issue is they do not replace their chambering reamers in sets. They are replaced on individually on a conditional basis. With a given allowed manufacturing tolerance to chamber dimensions and these reamers not replaced in sets, this means there can be a not so trivial difference from chamber to chamber in a given cylinder. This is a problem that shows up in how well some of these guns can group and it also can explain why some Ruger revolvers shoot out the living daylights out of the box and why some consistently won't. Some are terrible, some are perfect and lots of them shoot good enough that people can't figure out how to get a tighter group or attribute flyers to human error. I have a friend that has made a life business out of truing up revolvers and the vast majority of his work is uniforming Ruger revolver cylinders. Revolvers in general are his specialty, lots of chamber reaming type work. Cylinder uniforming, forcing cone recutting, resetting cylinder gap, etc. I don't know anyone that hasn't given great praise to his work and got a much improved gun back from his shop. Steve, if you can trace flyers coming from specific chambers, he is your guy!
mytmousemalibu - Interesting stuff - indeed, I'm going to run some tests to determine if I have renegade chambers in my cylinders...I've had numerous experiences where I'm getting a good group and then comes that one that spoils it...That friend of yours sounds like a revolver guy for sure...!! Best to ya, Chris and get back to ya on this one...Some shootin' to do... FC
I will be curious of your findings! If for nothing else, you can eliminate it as a cause or perhaps find a nugget to scrutinize for potential flyer passes!
mytmousemalibu
Thanks for the info...
Best I can do is go get my calipers and see what I get ...I know it's not totally precise but it's the best I can do.
I do own a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 magnum.
So your statements apply to me and my revolver.
Thanks again.
You need to change the group measurement to ATC, average to center of the group. ATC will give you a better guage as to what is happening.
jlscjwtwich - Center to center farthest apart holes is the way we civilian shooters commonly measure our groups. If we did it the mean radius military way, it would require a discussion at every opportunity. Generally, videos are long enough and need to get shorter. In both methods, a zero zero zero group is most appreciated. Best to ya, FC Steve
LFCD are great I use them all the time. Before FC45LC i did not know what they were used for. Thanks.
So, the others were not crimped at all?
I'm not sure if .1" proves anything ... more tests needed then
Rtwo Comm - You bring up some very good points expressed and implied. I shot 10 5 shot chronographed groups in this video making - took all afternoon. But it is limited data still. Some of the real difficulties in every experiment is that we really can't "prove" anything. Even in criminal cases with eyewitnesses - if a good enough lawyer is hired, even eyewitness accounts can be discredited (because who is infallible and completely credible?) - guilt can never be "proven beyond the shadow of a doubt" - and that lawyer or teams of lawyers can move for the best venue and jury selection also for "impartiality" - Let's appeal all the way to the Supreme Court.- just takes money. If debates are done expertly enough, the best outcomes are a draw. Holes can be found in any scientific experiment. How can we accumulate "infinite" data? Perhaps not "prove", but with statistics, we can "show" anything. So it comes down to whether we are "satisfied" with results... I'd invite you to do your own testing and thereby be "satisfied" and also share the tests and results with all so we can eventually be likewise "satisfied". If not, we are satisfied by faith. Sorry, but it really boils down to all of that... Thanks for the comments though - important stuff... FC
I’ll bet those are your cast bullets and your high SD is from the variation in bullet weight. The crimp is irrelevant to SD if you are using different bullet weight.
I cast and load 38-55. I weigh each bullet to +/- .5 grains and reject 80%. My SD is 13. BTY I used a factory crimp die.
Thanks :-)
Data size / quantity is really hard for a hobbyist. To get a large enough sample for statistical use would be beyond the scope of a CZcamsr. Compile data from 500 per week for a year and you might be able to statistically prove the data is valid and still not random.
Maybe one cylinder may be a different size in your revolver causing the one flyer.
Dennis Charles - That may be quite likely, but I've never bothered to do individual chamber tests with my revolvers... my reason is that I want to use my revolvers as revolvers - If I was a hunter in need of precise shot placement at 50 yards, I would indeed be testing for any renegade chambers and identifying those to not be loaded during my hunts. Best to ya, FC Steve
What shooting range was that?
1:34 , that series of shots. You 890FPS load was lower than your 830FPS load...that ain't the ammo doing that
Well now I’m scratching my head!
Indian Creek - The overriding thing is that the Lee Factory Crimp Dies provide the best crimp in the business....Good crimpin' to ya, Steve
FortuneCookie45LC yes I agree, I load five calibers with them and they are great
Mixed brass? That pretty much nullified the test. The brass being mixed flawed the test. Load differences would nullify the test as well. This test really showed absolutely nothing substantial the results are not even comparable.
Mixed brass. Statistically insignificant results.
If your not using a fixture and shooting by hand this test really isn't accurate. Plus you seem to be shooting low, so I believe it could be the shooter not necessarily the round.
I have a question? When I shoot my 38 Special that I load and and getting a little bit of unburned powder, could you tell me why.. Thanks
when I measure groupsize I always exclude the worst shot i every group - like you said "It might be me". It would be interesting to see your result again if you exclude the worst shot in every group ;-)
Nice testing .not so good results . I can see you doing another test . I see it in your Fortunecookie.
Nick L - Yes, with differently loaded ammo loaded for low Standard Deviation - in other words better quality reloads instead of the random stuff. Have a great day, FC
Haters gotta hate.