What's all this crimp nonsense about? UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with CZcams content policies. www.patreon.com/reloading
yeah, came to say this. lately when i'm reloading and thinking of something its usually a combo of a bunch of forum and reloading book reading finished with a "what about johnny?, what does he say". so with great power comes great resonsibility... we're counting on you johnny boy.
? Why not load to mag , 2.250 . Length,,, measured my Armulite chamber + .050 jump . 75 gn bullet ,yes ,,sized , trimmed,, annelled , wire brushed the inside neck , tight neck tension all most crushing the shoulder when feeding the bullet then slight crimp with the seater die ( as much as I can before crushing the neck ). Still the bullet moves ! No cantilevers on the bullets.
I've been reloading for some time. Yet, im new to auto rifle. This was great information. Thanks for taking the time to do this and sharing with us. Good job!
I really expected to see more deviation from NO crimp to the extreme X-Heavy crimp. Even the pressures didn't pick up as much as I thought they would have. Excellent video buddy.
Check your feed ramp alignment, My Armalite was Horrible with crushing rounds, at least 1 per magazine after some troubleshooting the feed ramps were slightly mis-aligned.
Proper cannelure dimensions are required for the 5.56 roll crimp to work effectively. "Ghost Crimp" first offered by Sierra was rejected in favor of the Nosler 77 gr OTM cannelure on the Black Hills Mark 262 Mod 1, until Sierra came around to making a fully developed cannelure. You can see the waffle impression on the soft case mouth from the bullet cannelure on fired federal XM193 military cases. I think the extra grip between bullet and case used by the military was for added insurance against poor neck tension and subsequent loose bullet from jamming the weapon.
Well done Johnny, here is my two cents worth. For years I crimped my 223Rem/.556 ammo with a medium to heavy crimp for the simple reason of bullet push back, in competition causing jams. In the last few years mostly bench shooting on my part and never crimp, and no issues so far.My only comment with the bullet you are using why OAL 2.215", my preference for that bullet OAL 2.247".
Thank you for this video! You answered that question I always had in the back of my mind in regards to crimping. I will continue with a light crimp on my 223 reloads without any more doubt about going heavier!!
Just started reloading and your videos are the best I could find!! You don't talk too fast and you dont talk to slow. Your precise and concise. Keep making them
The heavier the crimp, the higher the POI shift is what your test seems to show. I have a hornet, and I was instructed to always put a light to medium-light crimp as they have low neck tension. Thanks for the test, bro!
I've been reloading for over 30 years and never bothered crimping. I was just gonna start playing with crimps and found your video. I prob won't now. Great seeing this... I would think just to put a little more tension on the bullet.
Glad you went back to LC brass. They take pains to assure a soft annealed shoulder and neck. This serves to make sure the neck seals to the chamber during firing. The downside is that if you get too heavy on the roll crimp on your press, the shoulder will flare where it attaches to the shank of the case. It can be subtle and go undetected under visual inspection. It can even sneak through the Wilson Pattern Gage Test. When setting up for a roll crimp into the cannelure keep an eye on possible shoulder flare. By the way the MilSpec for M193 is 35 lbs neck retention. The Military does not insist on crimp but LC throws it in to assure there are no disassembling or bullets pushed back down in the case during the autoload forces and the 35 lb. minimum milspec requirement is maintained.
Many moons ago I performed a variation of the test you did here. I used cases sorted by stamp, 55 gr hornady FMJ bullets, and two different ball powders (H335 & TAC). I tested medium crimp vs no crimp at various charges weights. I had similar results. Sometimes the crimp yielded better consistency, and sometimes not. Data was so inconclusive that I also determined crimp doesn't make much difference with plinking ammo in an AR platform rifle. However, for my target rifle I'll often achieve a spread under 15fps. I never crimp these rounds.
I know I am about a year late for my comment but I only found your channel in the last week. So u can probably expect a few late comments on other videos as well as I watch them. :-) great content! loving the channel and experiments
The video clips thrown in make me laugh every time. The 8541 tactical made me laugh out loud at work when I shouldn't have been watching videos. I've never crimped, haven't had a reason to, and I get good results without it. So it saves me another step I guess
Thank you, for confirming why i don't crimp for 223. No real accuracy gain as well as velocity jump. I use a .002" neck tension and it seems to work well.
How do they hold up over time with moisture in the air? Just curious about the powder might get damp over the several years. I have black powder and it don’t take moisture well.
@@paulatudor691 I can't speak for black powder cartridges, but moisture is not an issue with modern cartridges. Neck tension seems to be pretty air tight. Crimping with black powder may be more important for assisting in pressure curves as well. Good luck.
Great job man! So the question is: to crimp or not to crimp. I personally don’t crimp my bullets, even if I do “fire-fire” with my AR15, or bench rest with my 308 Remington 700. The reason is that I prefer to not stress overall the neck of my cartdriges, since I reload them. This is my opinion. Anyway, thanks for making this video, and sorry for my english. Greetings from an italian guy :)
I think the changes in group sizes are due to the barrel heating as the first through third grow progressively bigger until you take a break then the same thing happens again
I was taught to always crimp compressed loads and anything that will be stored for any length of time. I.e hunting loads. Other than that, it's shooters choice. What do the manuals say?
I've been loading 300 HAM'R (basically 223 brass cut and necked up to 308) and had to crimp (mid to light) to keep the bullet from pulling out of the case when chambered. The inertia from the 125 gr. bullet made it push out into the lands. If I pulled the bolt back to make sure the round loaded from the mag it would pull the bullet the rest of the way out; turned into a powdery mess.
The best way to describe crimp is to hold bullets in place in auto firing guns. And some powders do better when bullets are crimped to 🔥 all the powder up. The old wise tail says if you can't push the bullet in with pressing it against something your fine and just lightly crimp them to iron out the lip of case.
Thanks for the video man. Well put together. If crimping doesn't change SD or grouping much I could see a hunting vs bench application for crimping. iE if your walking through the shit and your bullets are josling around In the mag or your pocket etc.
I’ve never used my factory crimp die on 556. Just a normal neck tension on the lee seating die. It takes about five whacks with a kinetic bullet puller to knock a bullet loose. That’s plenty tight. As an aside, 25.5g H335 is above the new max but below the old max and gives great groups (Hornady 55g fmjbt, CCI 400 primer, 2.215 COL).
I agree I’ve noticed that it depends more on the brass then anything. But on 5.56 I was always using used brass. Had a few times where the neck was just too loose and the bullet wouldn’t hold. But on my 308 or my 6.8spc the brass is always tight so crimping is not necessary and could cause over pressuring.
I’ve never used the factory crimp die on 556. Just a normal crimp on the lee seating die. And like you said just enough to get it done. It takes about five whacks with a kinetic bullet puller to knock a bullet loose. That’s plenty tight.
Very interesting and well done. I crimp the .243 rem I own, It is a Tikka T3 varmit. I find crimping improves the rifle's performance, I use it mainly for pest control on Fox, Kangaroo, and Fallow Deer (NSW, Australia). I would say I use a heavy crimp, but I think I will go back and look over it again as you have now got me thinking, I could improve.
I believe crimp matters more with heavier/longer bullets. really noticed this with the 300blk subs bullets moving forward when cambering.(dies maybe?) Never had any issues with 5.56/223 bullets i've loaded, but I crimp them anyway cause of bullets getting shoved in cases in ammo I didn't load. The SMK 69gr are the heaviest i've loaded.
I shoot a Howa .22-250. My favorite load is 52gr. Hornady match, CCI BR2, Hornady brass, no crimp OAL 2.370" case trimmed to 1.905. I finally got a 5 shot group under a dime at 100 yards. (Forget about the other 300 groups under a blanket).
you should test your OAL after you chamber a round, then pull it out and check its OAL as this is when you would get bullet set back when the bolt slams the round into chamber. I crimp everything, even for my bolt rifles. After trying to mimic some factory loads Ive noticed that some of the most accurate factory loads Ive fired were with rounds that were heavily crimped to where you couldnt pull the bullet out without some considerable force in a bullet puller die. I just seem to get better accuracy and consistency when crimping. Ive come to the conclusion that crimping creates more consistent pressure. Thats what I think so thats what Im sticking with. Even if the bullet doesn't have a cannelure I still crimp with the Lee Crimp
mojo jojo interesting hypothesis. Sorry but I don’t agree. Can you support your idea with any thoughts? Read my thoughts up at the top and put what you think! Thanks
Your reasoning does not make sense. When the round is chambered, the kinetic energy of the cartridge getting slammed into the chamber would throw the bullet forward, not backward.
From what I understand, crimping bullets came about after most of the worlds armies learned that soldiers during battle can be very hard on their ammunition. Using bullet tips as tools, running through red hot machine guns, slamming home bolts, double feeds, etc. Crimping also came about due to war time production as neck tension could sometimes vary quiet substantially. Crimping was just another step to decrease the likelyhood of a misfire damaging the weapon. Today, the quality of modern brass is just out the freakin roof, even with cheap brass. Crimping can help, but is not needed. I think all of us, early on in our shooting career, "heard about that one shooter" who had a round pushed into the case and blew his face off. So we intuitively added crimp, JUST IN CASE. lol
Crimps are military standard. As with cci # 41 primers. I use a lee factory crimp die on all simiauto reloads. Very lite to lite. Military uses a heavy crimp standard do to the handeling of munitions and to insure proper feeding in combat as well as training. With combat they are looking at combat accuracy not bench rest. To test standards you must measure crimps on factory loadings with digital just as you would for proper pistol munitions. If your banging out more than ten in the mag such as the 30 round standards everybody uses today, I use ten, then you could see a little backwards movement by the time you reach the last few. How fast you jackhammer them out can also have affect. Clean barrel with a snake between strings to set a standard. That's my way when looking for accuracy load. But every body has there own way. Just like opinions and But holes everybody has one.lol. fun fun fun.
+David Underwood: The primary reason that military ammo is crimped is to ensure no bullet movement during full-auto firing (the same primary reason why the primers are crimped). Be well, Don
The only round i've every found to benefit from a mild crimp was the .22 Hornet. Other than that i just size the case neck, (Until it needs a full resize. Bolt action.) I just always seat bullets at least as deep as the width of the the caliber and around 5 to 10 thou from the lands. Best group i've had at 100 yards is .25" give a thou or 2. That was a dead calm day though, and i happened to be on form for once!
I always thought it would make more difference than you got there. But then you rarely ever see factory loads in any caliber that isn't crimped, some of it crimped pretty hard. I really would have bet it raised bullet pull a lot having to break the crimp back out before the bullet could move. Guess not.
I struggle with crimp/no crimp. I can and do calibrate my die exactly how you did it, so I know how but my results are all over the place just like yours.
Much more important is to get the thickness of the neck brass even around the circumference. There will always be thicker and thinner spots. This means that your bullet is not in proper alignment with the barrel bore. Only turn it to take off the high spots, so you’ll typically only get cut marks 3/4ths of the way around. And as always, neck tension should be .002” less than actual bullet diameter compensating for neck brass thickness. No separate crimp required. Now this is for your match ammo that you baby, not the stuff for blasting with the fellas.
Thanks for the video, tell me one thing, currently what do you use? No, light, medium or heavy? It was weighed not to use, that in the caliber 38 special, what do you recommend
Good stuff. I did a similar .223 test a few years ago. Unfortunately, it was before I had access to a chronograph. My groups looked like yours. Not a lot of deviation. I expected variations. It surprises me to see no bullet creep or major change in velocities. I wonder what this test would look like with a heavier caliber?
I load those bullets with AR COMP with lc brass with 25.7grains and use winchester small piatol primers And get very very small groups at 100 yards COAL is 2.245 No crimp in a 1 in 9 twist 16 inch barrel Works great in my friends ars as well No small rifle orimers so we made do with the small pistol primers Whats your thoughts about this load
The only time I cramp my bullets when I use my Lee cast 55 grain bullet other than that I don't cramp any jacketed bullets I tried to get them up close to the rifling as I can
People who reload for others and not crimp? Has any person allready shot one with the bullet fallen into the case while loading the rifle?So when you make one for brother,papa or friend,better crimp to avoid accidents
I'm a advanced reloader of over 43 years , advanced ultra reduced center ammunition. all my semi auto ammunition I prove each round with no exceptions. I cross both thumbs around prime end, bullet nose betweeny fingers and push hard against a board on a table, reloading bench,door frame of reloading room. having my micre meter set to check for bullet back up .I don't buy much factory ammunition but I'm shocked at how easy to back in case some brands are also extremely dangerous ammunition.lets face facts most shooters get out shoot she spray and pray method and because you just can't see while rapid firing bullets backing up in cases then blowing up. I'm 99 percent convinced most semi auto firearm failures are due to faulty ammunition.its a experience I won't never forget. papa.
I generally use a crimp only with plinking ammunition that has a cannelure. While there are sometimes accuracy and pressure differences... I don’t see enough to worry about. I use a crimp in bulk stuff just because it gets thrown in an ammo can and carried around. I find best accuracy and SD’s out of controlling neck tension and seating depth. I seat to 2.25 to 2.26 depending on the round. For me the golden number has been 0.003 of neck tension. I use this in all my rifles. I recently used a very light crimp on 300 blackout but have yet to fire a single round to test. You should really try the 77 grain Berger tactical with Varget... I’m curious to see your result. H335 I like with 55 grain... I prefer a little slower with powder with heavier. Varget, 4166, CFE, etc. when you clean don’t remove too much copper, accuracy will fall. If it’s a new barrel it could need broken in more as well. As far as your take on crimp needed or not... I don’t see the real need unless storing like I mentioned. Good neck tension is what’s more important... keep the awesome videos coming. I would say where it is relevant, in pistol, especially in magnum revolver cartridges. In rifle I crimp only 223 and 300 and for storage. High accuracy stuff even in 223 gets no crimp for me and I get beat SD and velocity with neck tension. Crimping can actually reduce velocities when you need it due to more energy blowing expensed to make the bullet leave the case. A longer COAL will get you higher velocities with good neck tension... that’s a little bit of a ramble and I’m sorry. Just got up with minimal coffee in the system lol.
any sign on the new video? the things you are going over are exactly whats going through my head at the moment. i think ive found the right load weight for my powder but now its just getting the crimps right (which judging by your video im doing a "medium crimp") and now looking at my bullet lengths to see if i can tighten my groups. i had shot 2.900" COAL for my 150gr HPBT sierra #2190 .308 which was an excellent group, but the bolt was very tight, so i went back to book standard and reduced it to 2.750. i've now increased it again to 2.775 to see where we are with it, still within the books spec but at its max length - after that it will be my own world. takes serious money to do this in the UK lol
The cannelure on those bullets is what we call a pseudo-cannelure, invented by Sierra when Mil asked for a real cannelure on the Mk262 Mod 1. According to Dr. Corbin, a real cannelure will establish a line terminus of the cannelure indent if it is to be functional as intended.
This puts another wrinkle in my noodle. I started reloading 30-06 and 460 S&W mag, guess crimp has been engrained in me. Only load I really don't crimp is 300BO , since I just am removing the bell. Going to try no crimp on my 5.56 now.
Neck tension seems to be enough for me without any crimping. I have pushed the back of my hand into the back of the loaded cartridge and it didn't move even. .001
The first and second series were the smallest. The last and second last were the largest. Perhaps a result of the shooters concentration becoming weaker at the end.
I tested different crimps to see if it dented the bullet once i pulled it from the case.(and heavy crimps do damage the side) And set My crimp As tight as I could without denting the bullet.
Have you had the crimp die deform a shoulder/roll it a little? Have a RCBS crimp/seating die and that's what it's been doing. Put a factory round in the shell holder lift the ram all the way up and then screw the die in so I have seating depth and crimp. After this a put a round in to seat and crimp and comes out with a rolled shoulder.
My view is that I use a light crimp when the bullets have a cannelure. On longer bullets(55gr Nosler BT) with no cannelure, the bullet is seated deep in the case and does not need a crimp. I just don't think the crimp adds anything. YMMV
Good video the thing is there are so many variations to reloading and testing. I feel the biggest is the gun and the shooter. The only way I see for the best test would be that the firearm is clamped down and it has the same Barrel condition every time from one load to the other. Just my two cents
I have been loading for bolt action for a while never needing to crimp butjust started loading .223 for a semi auto and have been looking for info on crimping. Ive read that its a safety thing for bullet pushback but then i hear no dont worry and i dont need it. I am loading hornady 75 gr bthp with no cannelure as well as 55 gr fmj sbt with cannelure going to be using lee factory crimp die for both as it will taper crimp bullets without a cannelure am i just wasting time and money?
I think 10 shot groups is little extreme. 5 should be enough. Maybe a little slower shooting to insure deviation is not shooter induced. Crimp or no crimp? That question has been going on forever in the rifle cartridge reloading world. Myself I check neck tension after seating. Measure, push test, measure! Also like you did a measure check of rounds from the magazine after weapon operations. No variation or issues based on that lot of brass I do not crimp! Crimping effects pressure through variations in neck tension! Common sense. In rifle it is rare that I crimp. When I was benchrest comp shooting and did inside neck turning there may have been times I used a very light taper crimp. Even that was seldom! I like your testing process and you explanation on what your doing and looking for is very good.
Crimp isn't about keeping the bullet in the same place on a standard feed, or really for accuracy, or for SD/speed. If you size you case properly the standard neck tension will hold the bullet, even one without a cannulure, in standard feed semiauto. What a crimp is for is a safety factor when you have a jam. A proper crimp gives you confidence to ensure the round is still shootable when you have a jam. I could have told you the results of this test before you did it... it would change nothing you were measuring.
Would you get better consistency by resting the front rail on the sled instead of the end of the barrel? Barrel pressure can make a huge consistency difference in some tests I've seen.
In my opinion crimping for rifles is more based on how you are going to use the gun. If its a self-defense or gun fighting battle rifle setup, you want to crimp. The rifle is going to be dropped banged around on things, etc and you don't want the bullets shifting. If all you are doing is bench shooting, then who cares.
I might suggest trying to load to an Optimal Barrel Time for your AR. With LC Brass, 55 FMJ (2.215 COL), AR-Comp (25.4 gr) gives a predicted velocity of 3139 fps and an OBT of .834 ms.
I have .0015"neck tension in my AR rounds, that amount is tight enough I have a very hard time pulling the bullets with a kinetic puller, no crimp for me. Oh, and those FMJ bullets have an accuracy standard or 2.5", so consider yourself lucky for getting the groups you're getting.
I keep a lee crimp die on all my XL650 tool heads the only thing I don't crimp is my 155 308 match bolt gun loads , I noticed a drop in performance and those bullets are straight walled
Personally I've had good results crimping .223 for my 26in barrel bolt rifle. Consistent .433in groups at 200yrds. 53gr Sierra MK HP 24gr IMR 3031 CCI BR4 primers.
Is them boat tail? Other than creating a round crimp groove, fcd does not distort any bullet. Lee said so and I have seen it’s true. If you can feel the edge of the case with a drag finger test, it’s not crimped. Send it back to Lee with a case and they will make it right
I love these tests you do. I've learned a lot from watching your channel and it's saved me a lot of time and money. Thanks for what you do.
yeah, came to say this. lately when i'm reloading and thinking of something its usually a combo of a bunch of forum and reloading book reading finished with a "what about johnny?, what does he say". so with great power comes great resonsibility... we're counting on you johnny boy.
A person can spend several weeks on the range playing ballistic research scientist. This video confirms similar I have done. Great work.
? Why not load to mag , 2.250 . Length,,, measured my Armulite chamber + .050 jump . 75 gn bullet ,yes ,,sized , trimmed,, annelled , wire brushed the inside neck , tight neck tension all most crushing the shoulder when feeding the bullet then slight crimp with the seater die ( as much as I can before crushing the neck ). Still the bullet moves ! No cantilevers on the bullets.
6 years old video but still relevant!
I've been reloading for some time. Yet, im new to auto rifle. This was great information. Thanks for taking the time to do this and sharing with us. Good job!
I really expected to see more deviation from NO crimp to the extreme X-Heavy crimp. Even the pressures didn't pick up as much as I thought they would have. Excellent video buddy.
Great test and content. Very helpful to someone getting into reloading. Thanks for doing this channel.
I do a mild crimp on all my 223, after some rounds jammed in my Armalite and it was because the bullet had been pushed back on the feed ramps.
Check your feed ramp alignment, My Armalite was Horrible with crushing rounds, at least 1 per magazine after some troubleshooting the feed ramps were slightly mis-aligned.
Literally love nerding out on these vids, good job
What a cool test! Putting theory to paper to quell the masses!! DAMN I love this channel!
Proper cannelure dimensions are required for the 5.56 roll crimp to work effectively. "Ghost Crimp" first offered by Sierra was rejected in favor of the Nosler 77 gr OTM cannelure on the Black Hills Mark 262 Mod 1, until Sierra came around to making a fully developed cannelure. You can see the waffle impression on the soft case mouth from the bullet cannelure on fired federal XM193 military cases. I think the extra grip between bullet and case used by the military was for added insurance against poor neck tension and subsequent loose bullet from jamming the weapon.
This video is very well done! Not overly talky. Great target and shooting visuals. Thanks!
Well done Johnny, here is my two cents worth. For years I crimped my 223Rem/.556 ammo with a medium to heavy crimp for the simple reason of bullet push back, in competition causing jams. In the last few years mostly bench shooting on my part and never crimp, and no issues so far.My only comment with the bullet you are using why OAL 2.215", my preference for that bullet OAL 2.247".
Thank you for this video! You answered that question I always had in the back of my mind in regards to crimping. I will continue with a light crimp on my 223 reloads without any more doubt about going heavier!!
Lol. That is my favorite website for supporting all my favorite content creators!
Great video! These videos are very detailed and well thought out. Tons of serious information to be gleaned here. Keep up the awesome work!
Just started reloading and your videos are the best I could find!! You don't talk too fast and you dont talk to slow. Your precise and concise. Keep making them
He’s videos are really helpful to me. Haven’t seen many do so much,or so many with my rifle rounds.
Best link at the end of a video yet, well played
Glad you did this. I had an old timer tell me he never crimps 223. He shoots competition. Hence I dont crimp
The heavier the crimp, the higher the POI shift is what your test seems to show. I have a hornet, and I was instructed to always put a light to medium-light crimp as they have low neck tension.
Thanks for the test, bro!
I've been reloading for over 30 years and never bothered crimping. I was just gonna start playing with crimps and found your video. I prob won't now. Great seeing this... I would think just to put a little more tension on the bullet.
Glad you went back to LC brass. They take pains to assure a soft annealed shoulder and neck. This serves to make sure the neck seals to the chamber during firing. The downside is that if you get too heavy on the roll crimp on your press, the shoulder will flare where it attaches to the shank of the case. It can be subtle and go undetected under visual inspection. It can even sneak through the Wilson Pattern Gage Test. When setting up for a roll crimp into the cannelure keep an eye on possible shoulder flare. By the way the MilSpec for M193 is 35 lbs neck retention. The Military does not insist on crimp but LC throws it in to assure there are no disassembling or bullets pushed back down in the case during the autoload forces and the 35 lb. minimum milspec requirement is maintained.
Many moons ago I performed a variation of the test you did here. I used cases sorted by stamp, 55 gr hornady FMJ bullets, and two different ball powders (H335 & TAC). I tested medium crimp vs no crimp at various charges weights. I had similar results. Sometimes the crimp yielded better consistency, and sometimes not. Data was so inconclusive that I also determined crimp doesn't make much difference with plinking ammo in an AR platform rifle. However, for my target rifle I'll often achieve a spread under 15fps. I never crimp these rounds.
Military doesn't even crimp ammo issued to sniper teams if that tells you anything
You are a god to the new reloaded And new to to bobs bullets. Thank you
I've crimped mine with a light crimp because it came with my kit. Interesting results.
I know I am about a year late for my comment but I only found your channel in the last week. So u can probably expect a few late comments on other videos as well as I watch them. :-) great content! loving the channel and experiments
Love the “I can feel it all the way down to my plums”🤠
The video clips thrown in make me laugh every time. The 8541 tactical made me laugh out loud at work when I shouldn't have been watching videos. I've never crimped, haven't had a reason to, and I get good results without it. So it saves me another step I guess
I have never crimped either and do not know anyone that does.
Well Done Sir! A real life, this is what I did and here are the results test. Thank You!
No crimp pimp. LOL
I just wanted to thank you for your hard work and sharing with us brain stems out here.
haha
I have found that crimping tends to elongate the bullet by .001 to .002" so that may explain the extra thou in your measurements.
Thank you, for confirming why i don't crimp for 223. No real accuracy gain as well as velocity jump. I use a .002" neck tension and it seems to work well.
How do they hold up over time with moisture in the air? Just curious about the powder might get damp over the several years. I have black powder and it don’t take moisture well.
@@paulatudor691 I can't speak for black powder cartridges, but moisture is not an issue with modern cartridges. Neck tension seems to be pretty air tight. Crimping with black powder may be more important for assisting in pressure curves as well. Good luck.
Need to run the crimp test with multiple powders. That might provide more decisive insight. Great work, too!
I would try them without the can on the end- it with the sensor on the end may be affecting the barrel flexing.
I have read in multiple forums about reloading .223 and a lot of reloaders do not crimp. Good video, Thanks!
Great job man! So the question is: to crimp or not to crimp. I personally don’t crimp my bullets, even if I do “fire-fire” with my AR15, or bench rest with my 308 Remington 700. The reason is that I prefer to not stress overall the neck of my cartdriges, since I reload them. This is my opinion. Anyway, thanks for making this video, and sorry for my english. Greetings from an italian guy :)
I think the changes in group sizes are due to the barrel heating as the first through third grow progressively bigger until you take a break then the same thing happens again
Really enjoy your videos lots of great content!
Whether you apply a crimp or not, I have found uniformity in neck tension is the criteria that's important.
You certainly go after the questions I have.
Your video's are the best, in my opinion I've learned so much and have watched for hours thank you 🤠
I crimp just enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil and cycling.
I was taught to always crimp compressed loads and anything that will be stored for any length of time. I.e hunting loads. Other than that, it's shooters choice. What do the manuals say?
Awesome link at the end Johnny lol
I've been loading 300 HAM'R (basically 223 brass cut and necked up to 308) and had to crimp (mid to light) to keep the bullet from pulling out of the case when chambered. The inertia from the 125 gr. bullet made it push out into the lands. If I pulled the bolt back to make sure the round loaded from the mag it would pull the bullet the rest of the way out; turned into a powdery mess.
The best way to describe crimp is to hold bullets in place in auto firing guns. And some powders do better when bullets are crimped to 🔥 all the powder up. The old wise tail says if you can't push the bullet in with pressing it against something your fine and just lightly crimp them to iron out the lip of case.
Thanks for the video man. Well put together. If crimping doesn't change SD or grouping much I could see a hunting vs bench application for crimping. iE if your walking through the shit and your bullets are josling around In the mag or your pocket etc.
Awsome video bud,thanks for sharing 🎉🎉
great video btw i love the content keep it up!
I’ve never used my factory crimp die on 556. Just a normal neck tension on the lee seating die. It takes about five whacks with a kinetic bullet puller to knock a bullet loose. That’s plenty tight.
As an aside, 25.5g H335 is above the new max but below the old max and gives great groups
(Hornady 55g fmjbt, CCI 400 primer, 2.215 COL).
CRIMP: Just enough to get it done.
I agree I’ve noticed that it depends more on the brass then anything. But on 5.56 I was always using used brass. Had a few times where the neck was just too loose and the bullet wouldn’t hold. But on my 308 or my 6.8spc the brass is always tight so crimping is not necessary and could cause over pressuring.
I’ve never used the factory crimp die on 556. Just a normal crimp on the lee seating die. And like you said just enough to get it done. It takes about five whacks with a kinetic bullet puller to knock a bullet loose. That’s plenty tight.
I would like to see this with Vihta Vouri powder. That powder has given you the most consistent low SD #'s.
Very interesting and well done. I crimp the .243 rem I own, It is a Tikka T3 varmit. I find crimping improves the rifle's performance, I use it mainly for pest control on Fox, Kangaroo, and Fallow Deer (NSW, Australia). I would say I use a heavy crimp, but I think I will go back and look over it again as you have now got me thinking, I could improve.
Interesting video, always good info Bro. Thanks for sharing
I believe crimp matters more with heavier/longer bullets. really noticed this with the 300blk subs bullets moving forward when cambering.(dies maybe?) Never had any issues with 5.56/223 bullets i've loaded, but I crimp them anyway cause of bullets getting shoved in cases in ammo I didn't load. The SMK 69gr are the heaviest i've loaded.
I just crimp enough to rid my reloads of the slight case mouth flare, that I use during reloading. To smooth feeding. Light to extra light crimp.
I shoot a Howa .22-250. My favorite load is 52gr. Hornady match, CCI BR2, Hornady brass, no crimp OAL 2.370" case trimmed to 1.905. I finally got a 5 shot group under a dime at 100 yards. (Forget about the other 300 groups under a blanket).
you should test your OAL after you chamber a round, then pull it out and check its OAL as this is when you would get bullet set back when the bolt slams the round into chamber.
I crimp everything, even for my bolt rifles. After trying to mimic some factory loads Ive noticed that some of the most accurate factory loads Ive fired were with rounds that were heavily crimped to where you couldnt pull the bullet out without some considerable force in a bullet puller die.
I just seem to get better accuracy and consistency when crimping. Ive come to the conclusion that crimping creates more consistent pressure. Thats what I think so thats what Im sticking with. Even if the bullet doesn't have a cannelure I still crimp with the Lee Crimp
mojo jojo interesting hypothesis. Sorry but I don’t agree. Can you support your idea with any thoughts? Read my thoughts up at the top and put what you think! Thanks
If you watch he did that exactly. It chambered he ejected it and measured it.
Your reasoning does not make sense. When the round is chambered, the kinetic energy of the cartridge getting slammed into the chamber would throw the bullet forward, not backward.
From what I understand, crimping bullets came about after most of the worlds armies learned that soldiers during battle can be very hard on their ammunition. Using bullet tips as tools, running through red hot machine guns, slamming home bolts, double feeds, etc. Crimping also came about due to war time production as neck tension could sometimes vary quiet substantially. Crimping was just another step to decrease the likelyhood of a misfire damaging the weapon. Today, the quality of modern brass is just out the freakin roof, even with cheap brass. Crimping can help, but is not needed. I think all of us, early on in our shooting career, "heard about that one shooter" who had a round pushed into the case and blew his face off. So we intuitively added crimp, JUST IN CASE. lol
Wow . Great vid !
Crimps are military standard. As with cci # 41 primers. I use a lee factory crimp die on all simiauto reloads. Very lite to lite. Military uses a heavy crimp standard do to the handeling of munitions and to insure proper feeding in combat as well as training. With combat they are looking at combat accuracy not bench rest. To test standards you must measure crimps on factory loadings with digital just as you would for proper pistol munitions. If your banging out more than ten in the mag such as the 30 round standards everybody uses today, I use ten, then you could see a little backwards movement by the time you reach the last few. How fast you jackhammer them out can also have affect. Clean barrel with a snake between strings to set a standard. That's my way when looking for accuracy load. But every body has there own way. Just like opinions and But holes everybody has one.lol. fun fun fun.
+David Underwood: The primary reason that military ammo is crimped is to ensure no bullet movement during full-auto firing (the same primary reason why the primers are crimped). Be well, Don
Just bought a 1000 BB (bobs bullets) and cant wait to load them up!
The only round i've every found to benefit from a mild crimp was the .22 Hornet. Other than that i just size the case neck, (Until it needs a full resize. Bolt action.) I just always seat bullets at least as deep as the width of the the caliber and around 5 to 10 thou from the lands. Best group i've had at 100 yards is .25" give a thou or 2. That was a dead calm day though, and i happened to be on form for once!
I always thought it would make more difference than you got there. But then you rarely ever see factory loads in any caliber that isn't crimped, some of it crimped pretty hard. I really would have bet it raised bullet pull a lot having to break the crimp back out before the bullet could move. Guess not.
I struggle with crimp/no crimp. I can and do calibrate my die exactly how you did it, so I know how but my results are all over the place just like yours.
I don't want to wear out my brass I just go light
Much more important is to get the thickness of the neck brass even around the circumference. There will always be thicker and thinner spots. This means that your bullet is not in proper alignment with the barrel bore. Only turn it to take off the high spots, so you’ll typically only get cut marks 3/4ths of the way around. And as always, neck tension should be .002” less than actual bullet diameter compensating for neck brass thickness. No separate crimp required. Now this is for your match ammo that you baby, not the stuff for blasting with the fellas.
Thanks for the video, tell me one thing, currently what do you use? No, light, medium or heavy? It was weighed not to use, that in the caliber 38 special, what do you recommend
Good stuff. I did a similar .223 test a few years ago. Unfortunately, it was before I had access to a chronograph. My groups looked like yours. Not a lot of deviation. I expected variations. It surprises me to see no bullet creep or major change in velocities. I wonder what this test would look like with a heavier caliber?
I load those bullets with AR COMP with lc brass with 25.7grains and use winchester small piatol primers
And get very very small groups at 100 yards
COAL is 2.245
No crimp in a 1 in 9 twist 16 inch barrel
Works great in my friends ars as well
No small rifle orimers so we made do with the small pistol primers
Whats your thoughts about this load
The only time I cramp my bullets when I use my Lee cast 55 grain bullet other than that I don't cramp any jacketed bullets I tried to get them up close to the rifling as I can
I go .015" from rifling. no crimp trimmed case, and consistent OAL.
People who reload for others and not crimp? Has any person allready shot one with the bullet fallen into the case while loading the rifle?So when you make one for brother,papa or friend,better crimp to avoid accidents
marc robert as a general rule you should not shoot others reloads, or give others your reloads.
I know,you know,now everybody knows,i agree.100procent
I'm a advanced reloader of over 43 years , advanced ultra reduced center ammunition. all my semi auto ammunition I prove each round with no exceptions. I cross both thumbs around prime end, bullet nose betweeny fingers and push hard against a board on a table, reloading bench,door frame of reloading room. having my micre meter set to check for bullet back up .I don't buy much factory ammunition but I'm shocked at how easy to back in case some brands are also extremely dangerous ammunition.lets face facts most shooters get out shoot she spray and pray method and because you just can't see while rapid firing bullets backing up in cases then blowing up. I'm 99 percent convinced most semi auto firearm failures are due to faulty ammunition.its a experience I won't never forget. papa.
I generally use a crimp only with plinking ammunition that has a cannelure. While there are sometimes accuracy and pressure differences... I don’t see enough to worry about. I use a crimp in bulk stuff just because it gets thrown in an ammo can and carried around. I find best accuracy and SD’s out of controlling neck tension and seating depth. I seat to 2.25 to 2.26 depending on the round. For me the golden number has been 0.003 of neck tension. I use this in all my rifles. I recently used a very light crimp on 300 blackout but have yet to fire a single round to test. You should really try the 77 grain Berger tactical with Varget... I’m curious to see your result. H335 I like with 55 grain... I prefer a little slower with powder with heavier. Varget, 4166, CFE, etc. when you clean don’t remove too much copper, accuracy will fall. If it’s a new barrel it could need broken in more as well. As far as your take on crimp needed or not... I don’t see the real need unless storing like I mentioned. Good neck tension is what’s more important... keep the awesome videos coming. I would say where it is relevant, in pistol, especially in magnum revolver cartridges. In rifle I crimp only 223 and 300 and for storage. High accuracy stuff even in 223 gets no crimp for me and I get beat SD and velocity with neck tension. Crimping can actually reduce velocities when you need it due to more energy blowing expensed to make the bullet leave the case. A longer COAL will get you higher velocities with good neck tension... that’s a little bit of a ramble and I’m sorry. Just got up with minimal coffee in the system lol.
Just a thought; maybe crimping isn’t about accuracy but pressure and FPS.
Which contributes to accuracy.
any sign on the new video? the things you are going over are exactly whats going through my head at the moment. i think ive found the right load weight for my powder but now its just getting the crimps right (which judging by your video im doing a "medium crimp") and now looking at my bullet lengths to see if i can tighten my groups. i had shot 2.900" COAL for my 150gr HPBT sierra #2190 .308 which was an excellent group, but the bolt was very tight, so i went back to book standard and reduced it to 2.750. i've now increased it again to 2.775 to see where we are with it, still within the books spec but at its max length - after that it will be my own world. takes serious money to do this in the UK lol
The cannelure on those bullets is what we call a pseudo-cannelure, invented by Sierra when Mil asked for a real cannelure on the Mk262 Mod 1. According to Dr. Corbin, a real cannelure will establish a line terminus of the cannelure indent if it is to be functional as intended.
This puts another wrinkle in my noodle. I started reloading 30-06 and 460 S&W mag, guess crimp has been engrained in me. Only load I really don't crimp is 300BO , since I just am removing the bell. Going to try no crimp on my 5.56 now.
Thank you! Very informative and well done video. I’m just starting rifle reloading. If the bullet has a cannelure, is the crimp is still optional?
Single feed from a shooting bench? none. In the field hunting? Enough to prevent bullet movement while in the magazine.
Neck tension seems to be enough for me without any crimping. I have pushed the back of my hand into the back of the loaded cartridge and it didn't move even. .001
Johnny you da Man!!!!!
The first and second series were the smallest. The last and second last were the largest. Perhaps a result of the shooters concentration becoming weaker at the end.
I tested different crimps to see if it dented the bullet once i pulled it from the case.(and heavy crimps do damage the side) And set My crimp As tight as I could without denting the bullet.
Have you had the crimp die deform a shoulder/roll it a little? Have a RCBS crimp/seating die and that's what it's been doing. Put a factory round in the shell holder lift the ram all the way up and then screw the die in so I have seating depth and crimp. After this a put a round in to seat and crimp and comes out with a rolled shoulder.
My view is that I use a light crimp when the bullets have a cannelure. On longer bullets(55gr Nosler BT) with no cannelure, the bullet is seated deep in the case and does not need a crimp. I just don't think the crimp adds anything. YMMV
Good video the thing is there are so many variations to reloading and testing. I feel the biggest is the gun and the shooter. The only way I see for the best test would be that the firearm is clamped down and it has the same Barrel condition every time from one load to the other. Just my two cents
I have been loading for bolt action for a while never needing to crimp butjust started loading .223 for a semi auto and have been looking for info on crimping. Ive read that its a safety thing for bullet pushback but then i hear no dont worry and i dont need it. I am loading hornady 75 gr bthp with no cannelure as well as 55 gr fmj sbt with cannelure going to be using lee factory crimp die for both as it will taper crimp bullets without a cannelure am i just wasting time and money?
Nice fotos. Really obvious how the bullets form a waist with crimping and thereby loose contact surface with the barrel.
I think 10 shot groups is little extreme. 5 should be enough. Maybe a little slower shooting to insure deviation is not shooter induced. Crimp or no crimp? That question has been going on forever in the rifle cartridge reloading world. Myself I check neck tension after seating. Measure, push test, measure! Also like you did a measure check of rounds from the magazine after weapon operations. No variation or issues based on that lot of brass I do not crimp! Crimping effects pressure through variations in neck tension! Common sense. In rifle it is rare that I crimp. When I was benchrest comp shooting and did inside neck turning there may have been times I used a very light taper crimp. Even that was seldom! I like your testing process and you explanation on what your doing and looking for is very good.
Crimp isn't about keeping the bullet in the same place on a standard feed, or really for accuracy, or for SD/speed. If you size you case properly the standard neck tension will hold the bullet, even one without a cannulure, in standard feed semiauto. What a crimp is for is a safety factor when you have a jam. A proper crimp gives you confidence to ensure the round is still shootable when you have a jam. I could have told you the results of this test before you did it... it would change nothing you were measuring.
So glad to see a vid without hornady bullets
Could be why his groups suck. Hornady 55g fmjbt bullets give me smaller groups.
Would you get better consistency by resting the front rail on the sled instead of the end of the barrel? Barrel pressure can make a huge consistency difference in some tests I've seen.
He did… That’s a strap hanging under the chrono.
What would be the best 223 powder out of tcm. 4227. Titegroup. Or winchester autocomp????? 55 fmj
I personally, would be happy with any of these groups.
In my opinion crimping for rifles is more based on how you are going to use the gun. If its a self-defense or gun fighting battle rifle setup, you want to crimp. The rifle is going to be dropped banged around on things, etc and you don't want the bullets shifting. If all you are doing is bench shooting, then who cares.
I might suggest trying to load to an Optimal Barrel Time for your AR.
With LC Brass, 55 FMJ (2.215 COL), AR-Comp (25.4 gr) gives a predicted
velocity of 3139 fps and an OBT of .834 ms.
Here is the OBT chart
As I understand it you should not shoot for groups with the magneto speed chrono attached?
I have .0015"neck tension in my AR rounds, that amount is tight enough I have a very hard time pulling the bullets with a kinetic puller, no crimp for me. Oh, and those FMJ bullets have an accuracy standard or 2.5", so consider yourself lucky for getting the groups you're getting.
Well, LAPUA factory ammo in .223 comes without any visible crimp. Seems to be the best option if technically appropriate.
I keep a lee crimp die on all my XL650 tool heads the only thing I don't crimp is my 155 308 match bolt gun loads , I noticed a drop in performance and those bullets are straight walled
I do a light just to make it seem like its smooth from case to bullet.
Personally I've had good results crimping .223 for my 26in barrel bolt rifle. Consistent .433in groups at 200yrds. 53gr Sierra MK HP 24gr IMR 3031 CCI BR4 primers.
Is them boat tail? Other than creating a round crimp groove, fcd does not distort any bullet. Lee said so and I have seen it’s true. If you can feel the edge of the case with a drag finger test, it’s not crimped. Send it back to Lee with a case and they will make it right