The ULTIMATE ICF Efficiency Test-We Shut Off The Heat at -40!
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- We tested this commercial ICF building in the dead of winter, in a cold snap, that brought temperatures of -40! Not only do you get to witness what happens when we shut the heat off, but we run through how the building is constructed. We also used upgraded ICF block, it's the Nudura XR35 which has 4" of EPS foam on either side of a 6" concrete core. There's infrared images to prove how consistent the temperature is reflected across all areas of the building! Floors, walls, windows and ceiling. Let us know your thoughts, predictions and what you would like to see for any future efficiency tests!
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Thanks again Cody. This video is a class act and they don't look easy. I hope you make other videos about innovative ways to increase building efficiency. This one seems to be off the charts.
Absolutely I am and will continue to make videos related to this field of construction.
Fascinating test. Wonder how 100 degrees and turning off air conditioning would work.
Excellent video
I just wanted to add my two cents. I too have a full ICF house with close cell 7 inch foam in the attic. My first floor is about 2000 ft.². My second floor is about 1200 ft.². The second floor roof has 7 inches of spray foam sprayed to the roof deck to make a hot roof design.
The reason why I give you these details is I go to Florida in the middle of February for a month? I live in Maine and many times. It will get -20 below zero Fahrenheit. My slab is directly couple to the ground with 2 inches of foam and radiant heat on top of it. I can literally shut off my heat for an entire month in the middle of winter and my room temperature which I can monitor from Florida to turn on my boiler if need be never gets below 52° For the entire month. Obviously my house is a passive house design so I pick up heat during the day and release it during the night. One more point I did have 41/2”inches of foam on the interior wall of the ICF and only 2 1/2 inches on the exterior.
The ground temperature in Maine doesn’t drop much below 45° below the frost line I believe this helps to maintain the house from not going below 52° . Thank you for all your videos. I truly would build with nothing less than ICF.
My Blower test score was .45 ACH
I was the general contractor on this build. I am in the HVAC business and wanted to prove a point that insulation is much more important than all these fancy systems that they have to heat and cool these days.
By the way in the summertime, my house seldom gets above 72° even though I live in the middle of a hayfield with not a tree around. I do have to dehumidify the air to keep the moisture level down though, but the sensible temperature doesn’t go much above 74 degrees on my worst day .
Interesting, thanks for the comment!
I built an ICF home in south Alabama in 2006, love it. Last year it cost me a total of $130 to heat and cool the 2000 sq ft home, I use a wood stove to heat in our short mild winter. Summer is our hard season.
Thanks for sharing!
Is that $130 a month or the whole year?
It would be cool to compare the standard two inch foam blocks to your four inch performance. I would also be very interested to see what a complete ICF package, including the roof would do in comparison. Good information.
Good question. Did you see this test we did? How Efficient is Your Home?
czcams.com/video/EbNNJbiwXTg/video.html
Australia here, we built in ICF with 8inch polystyrene roof, we have 45c days and the house never climbs above 29c we have double glazed windows.
We have minus 2c nights and the house is never below 18c inside. It is also spoon quite.
Most of the year the house is around 22c to 24c all day, we have only ceiling fans, no air conditioning, and a small wood fire to take the chill off the air in winter.
People are always astounded that we are off grid, no air con
Great as always. You are the best. We just finished a 2 story 4 unit apt full height ICF . Our construction technics are the same I am R2000 trained as well. Cannot get any commercial interest here. Sask is vey closed minded. You video are a great service to the ICF industry.
Mike
Thanks a lot Mike. What a great project you just finished ! And hang in there. ICF is on the move. Check out prairie ICF. Good guys.
Did you build this ICF apartment for yourself? So cool -- something I'd love to do, as well. Bomber rental units.
@mikestronach did you see this?
I agree! I would be the ultimate rental space.
@@travisburch4342 yes. It helps with the ROI
We live in a crappy stick built townhouse right now. The wind literally blows through.
Saving to build an ICF modern farmhouse with a full basement. 1700 Sq ft per floor.
Doing in floor heat.
I can't wait to build myself a nice, sealed up, low dust house, with a good air exchanger and humidity control.
Please do a passive house so we can see just how good it can get. 😃
Would love to!
Great work and great report as usual.
thank you for sharing.
You’re welcome. Thanks for the feedback
Would be cool to see how a passive house performs with 14 inches under the slab and 11inches on the exterior. The footings will be absorbing the cold and transferring it to the inside of the wall. I'll bet an insulated slab passive house would be stellar.
I can’t wait to build one some day. This commercial building only has 2 south windows but there were parts of the day where the interior temperature went up a 1/2 degree.
I wanted to add something in the video about that but also didn’t want to complicate it more.
But if this building was all south windows, the temperature might hold forever.
@@uptokode I was thinking the same thing, at 150 hours for the temp to flatline ...I'm sure the sun could keep the place warm enough that it would never freeze. Could just go south for winter and never have to worry if the heating quit ...very cool.
I agree! I think it would take substantially longer than my theoretical time for the building to freeze. And you’re right…maybe it never would. Next to build a passive one to see those results.
Graphing tells the truth and is easily relatable. I was surprised it dropped off so quickly but I did expect the fast level off.
I wish I had another 12 hours of data or more. It would have levelled off way more than my current graph shows. Even with my projection… I think it would take weeks to freeze that building out
@@uptokode You did mention it was a new build so quite likely the walls and floor hadn't had a chance to fully stabilize.
I also wonder how much heat was lost to the attic. When I finally get enough cash to build I will be spray foaming with 2 lb to rafters for air seal and keep attic as conditioned and use SIPS for roof panels.
I personally would never go that way. Spray foam is overrated.
It would be a great conversation and debate !!
For me I don’t think you can beat the simplicity of a truss roof. It’s super easy and cheap to insulate, very easy to air seal. You can vault it with ease.
Can you do a follow up video during the summer to show how the building handles heat gain? Turn off the AC for a long weekend, how hot does it get sort of idea.
Excellent idea! Thank you for that. I will do that test.
Need to know solar heat gain. What was it? My 4,000 SQFt. home can rise 8 degrees F in January with solar gain.
There’s only 2 south windows on this building.We did notice temperatures rise during the day but it was only 1/2 degree or so. But man if was oriented differently and there was more south windows, it would be crazy.
@@uptokode The 1:2 degree lost means heat gain to compensate for heat lost
Yes absolutely
Very super cool!! Man -35*. Burr no thanks 😮.. awesome video!! Good job!!
Nicely done! Not sure what kind of HVAC & its design, but this "HVAC Off" test is cool.
What other ancillary heating is going on in there? You know, things that show up as vampire loads with the FLIR.
You don't mention an HRV/ERV. Was it off also or is there none?
How is humidity? That cold air is really, really dry.
Gotta watch hitting the glass with the FLIR because it can be a reflection. Most guys put some blue tape on the glass since that gives a more direct measurement without the risk of getting reflection readings. I think they go over that in their (FLIR's) class.
Ever consider bringing the attic into the interior also? This would bring your ducts inside also, instead of "outside" in the freezing attic (it's a vented attic, correct?). All the mechanicals could be up there in the attic; it provides lots of storage and no vapor barrier is needed at the ceiling since can lights poke holes in that anyway. You'd have to move the thermal layer to the roof line. Any small amount of duct leakage would just be conditioning the attic space.
Great questions and comments! There is a giant HRV. 1000 cfm with no pre-heat. 80% efficient by cycling the air back and forth to reach temp. I have no idea how it actually works. It was OFF during the test.
2 RTU’s on the roof. Run through an insulated chase. This is the weakest point in the building. Made an attic hatch to help that. Ductwork is all sealed and insulated until it’s below the trusses. Most of the ducting is in conditioned space.
I just learned that about glass and the gun the other day. Thanks for mentioning that.
Hope i covered everything. Cheers !
Great Video. At 5:27 you stated that you would have a link to exclusive footage showing more detail. I do not see the link. You assumed the inside temperature would eventually decrease to match the outside temperature. With the insulation, solar heat gain, thermal mass, and thermal wicking I expect the inside temperature would stabilize at a much higher value. It would have been nice to see what would happen after a few more days. After all passive solar house temperatures are not expected to stabilize to match outdoor temperatures. If all the heating was turned off then I am not sure why the bath and change room being heated by in floor heating was significant. It looks like the building has a forced air system so I expected to see thermal imaging of the forced air ducts. Air tight and no Heat Recovery Ventilation seems counter productive.
There is a super fancy HRV. 1000 cfm and no pre-heat required. 80% efficient if I’m not mistaken
And you’re right… it would have been nice to test it for a few more days. But can’t risk cracking drywall in a brand new build.
Great channel! Love the practical test. What were the windows and doors used in this project?
I appreciate the feedback! Windows were aluminum clad, triple pane, PlyGem. Doors were thermally broken, aluminum storefront doors. Kawneer I believe.
Thanks for the informative video. I really don't understand the reasoning for insulating the ceilings and not the roof. You have all the air handling in the uninsulated Attic space exposing the heating and cooling to outside air conditions, including very cold in the winter and hot and moist in the summer. Your video only demonstrates the efficiency of the space for heat loss but it doesn't evaluate the heat loss in the heating system in the attic.
The attic also has blown-in insulation. We used the Homega product to stop thermal bridging.
The air handling and duct work comes down through a shaft. That shaft is the weakest link in the building but it is well insulated. I guess the door hatch at the top is the very worst but we install an attic hatch at the ceiling level to stop hot air rising up the shaft
@@uptokode Is the actual airhandler in the unconditioned air? Does all of the ductwork run below the ceiling or in the unconditioned attic? Thanks for the courtesy of a reply. Posting a video on CZcams will always be like opening a Pandora's box with regard to comments from guys like me. ;)
The air handler is on the roof. So yes it’s unconditioned air but it’s not in the attic. Other than the vertical chase way, all the ductwork is below the drywall ceiling. It’s in conditioned space. Then there’s T-bar or suspended ceiling to finish it off. The air returns are up in the T-bar where the ducting is.
You had a great question and I’m happy you asked!
You are Awesome 💯💪💙🔥🤩
I appreciate the support! 🤙🤙
thanks for mentioning celcius!!! lets get rid of farenheigt or whatever it is named
Very impressive Kody! Another added benefit of icf is you can bounce a 3/4 ton pickup truck off it! Lol
Hahaha. Absolutely you could! The benefits are many and it’s all done in 1 step. I honestly think the simplicity of the ICF system escapes a lot of people.
Did you you need Shear wall as the openings are closer than four feet to a corner, Would be nice to see a window installation, lvl top wall great idea, Good job
Not to be picky, but I hear a lot of folks saying there is no thermal break. You mean no thermal bridge. Thermal breaks are good for keeping heat in or out. Thermal bridges are what conduct heat through a surface.
You have a point.
Would love to know how much energy and time it took to replace the heat loss.
My brother said it took 45 minutes to get back up to temp
@@uptokode Much less than I would have thought.
It was like we never turned the heat off.
Have you compared the blocks that have thicker foam outside with thinner foam inside? That would take better advantage of the thermal mass of the concrete. I built my own house with ICFs like 20 years ago and it is by far the best method of building a house. I sold it to move out of state but still miss living in an ICF house.
Does the concrete floor mass act as a heat store? which slows down the cool down, but it does show the heat loss is very low
Yes you’re right. Especially since the slab is insulated below, which then brings the slab inside the building envelope. The earth isn’t affecting the slab temperature as much this way.
Great test . Did you leave the the HRV running or was that turned off along with the heat?
The HRV was also turned off.
It would be great to see a video on ICF roof/floors
Tell my next client to build it and I will film it!! I’ve been trying to sell a concrete floor in the garage to create a theatre room below the garage. Still trying ….
@@uptokode sounds good! Maybe I’ll have to convince you to build and or consult for my future project in Maine 😜
You would use Newton's law of cooling, which is an exponential curve. This will give you a better idea of time to reach a certain temp. An intuitive explanation is, if you have a piece of metal that is 1000 degrees hotter than the surrounding air and you have a piece of metal that is 1 degree hotter than the surrounding air, which one will drop 1 degree faster? The hotter one. The greater the temp difference, the faster it cools until the temp difference is smaller. That's why the first day had a higher temp drop and the second day had a smaller temp drop.
Well done,how come you did not do radiant floor heating for the entire building?
The small amount of floor heat kept the boiler to a modest size. Plus we needed roof top units for air conditioning so the extra floor heat would have been overkill
Insane test man! 🙏
Thank you!
thanks for sharing . Awesome !!
You’re welcome
Great video and great info. You mentioned radiant floor heating. How is the water being heated and what is the brand name for the heating system? Thanks
Would you do consulting for an ICF build in another country (U.S.)? It would be a DIY build with individuals that have some experience building, with the trades being subcontracted out. Basically, just the shell. I've been a subscriber for years and admire your attitude, work ethic, attention to detail and straightforwardness.
If not, how would I gain access to the exclusive footage about special details?
Yes I would do consulting for you. Email me at kody@uptokode.com.
I’m still building my exclusive content library.
Great video, we are building ICF below the Mason Dixon line in the Eastern US. So it should take all winter to freeze the houses with the power out.
I did not catch the window specs if you have them.
I agree ! The windows are 3 pane PlyGem. Aluminum clad. 40” x 60”. Does that help?
In my local town the high school girl’s gym was completely destroyed by fire. Arson is suspected.
From your experience, would you consider ICF to be a viable construction alternative for something like a gymnasium?
Thanks for reaching out Bruce. Yes ICF would be ideal. Tall walls are no issue, concrete has an excellent fire rating and the ICF works great in hot climates as well. A lot less energy to keep them cool.
What would happen if you put metal security shutters with 2 inches of air between window and metal screen. The temperature change in window should be less.
Really cool!! Literally!!!!!
Thank you! I just imagine what would happen if there was more south facing windows? There’s only 2 right now but during the day we say the interior temp rise at times.
Awesome video! Have you considered doing slab on grade construction with something like Dalle Isoslab? It may save a good chunk of money not needing footers and may have even greater efficiency especially when integrating with ICF. When I build I want to give a shot, but still not super confident it will prevent frost from getting into the ground during crazy cold days.
I don’t know anything about the isoslab. I’m not sure I’m a fan of a floating, structural slab. Plus they are very tricky to plumb before concrete as there is foam work, rebar and all the rest. Plus thickened edges, etc. I’ve done some bigger garages and small shops with a fully insulated, structural slab. I think a 4’ frost wall on a footing is faster. Plus it’s better, nothing moves AND I can do services and mechanical afterwards. AND the slab is super simple after you have a foundation.
@@uptokode Yeah... the sewer lines would be tough... not sure an easy way for doing that. I just wonder if complete foam capsule and likely less work (potentially money?) would be worth it though? Because footers technically would create a thermal break if doing ICF since there is no insulation between the footers (which are in constantly cold soil all year) and the icf core.
Below is a demo video of their system. Pretty interesting set up at the very least!
czcams.com/video/_a0nRuMNkNQ/video.html
@@uptokode years redi-mix experience in rural Manitoba, 1 summer in Calgary, and 1 summer in Winnipeg. I was able to see some definite regional differences in foundation practices. Where I spent 5 years right along the Trans-Canada in Manitoba, a lot of farm shops and light commercial foundations were rudimentary floating thickened edge slabs. I saw some movement. I also saw a snow free border around the building in the winter. Not good. There were a lot of frost walls on footers and some grade beams on piles. In residential applications, most garages were either built on 2’ grade beams on top of piles sitting on pads set at the same depth as the basement footings or a frost wall sitting on footings that were a continuation of the basement footing. Calgary was almost exclusively this way as well. Winnipeg’s basement foundations are all built on 20-40’ deep friction piles. I saw a grand total of one new basement on a footing there. The garages are all similar. No one in their right mind would build on a floating slab there. Now I live and work in southern Manitoba 12 miles off the US border and I’ve noticed many garages are built on thickened edge slabs with 20’ piles under the edges, even if the basement is built on a footer. They’re moving away from it now as I think the code is starting to call for grade beams instead. The best explanation anyone can give me is it was easier to build garage walls on a slab and not have to lift them onto a beam. Another thing I notice here that I notice nowhere else is a propensity to power trowel exterior slabs to a near glass like finish. Broom finish is foreign to them. In Calgary in 2006, broom finish was standard for interior garage floors and a basic trowel job was an up charge!
Great information! I appreciate you sharing your experience across some pretty cold parts of the country.
My understanding is windchill is irrelevant for buildings
Wind chill will make a warm building reach the outside temperature faster.
@@mikecoffin820 The wind will make the building lose it, windchill does not cool inanimate objects. Windchill is important for animate objects only
I do agree, but it was windy and air infiltration would affect most buildings. This one is super air tight (not tested) so it would not be affected by the wind.
Amazing video as always. I'm a builder in California and plan on doing an ICF house w/ Nudura. Have a question that maybe you can address - we typically have a pretty involved framing inspection done on a traditional lumber framed house - how is the inspection process different when doing an ICF house?
Thanks a lot! Not much to dispute when doing cast-in-place concrete like ICF. Maybe the inspector will want to see proof of the rebar. Otherwise it’s a framed floor, trusses and walls.
Hardest part for us is the trusses. Otherwise our inspections are a bit of a joke to be honest
Kode you’re are a smart man , you are a sweet dude
Why thank you!
What if you ran geothermal pipes from below the frostline into the the poured walls?
Many experience that geothermal is very costly overall because of fluids, glycol, pumps, seals, servicing, trenching, the real estate necessary, etc., etc. Build tight, Insulate right and heat pumps.
Haven’t had the opportunity.
I’ve heard the same. I do have an opportunity to go see and ICF house with geothermal but budget is no issue and that’s not usually the case.
I agree, built it right and either way it’s really easy to maintain temperatures
Excellent content. Thank you so educational. How do I get one of these builds?
Find some land and gather some money and you can have it!
Or were you referring to getting the contract to build one of these?
@@uptokode yes the contract
Great question. It’s taken me 15 years to build me reputation so that’s a huge part of it. But joining your local construction association will give you a chance to quote or bid on these.
I have done work for this company in the past and have been working my way up to prove my worth with them.
Results of blower door testing?
I didn’t do one. Project was over budget and I didn’t want to spend any additional money out of pocket. But if enough demand for it I will get one done.
I see this building is built with thick, high R-value ICF. I’m not certain I want house walls that thick. I’ve seen some of the products from the suppliers that are poly styrene sheets that slide into the form. FOX calls them energy sticks. They would add an extra 2” to the exterior and take an 8” concrete core down to 6”. Have you worked with any of those products?
This is also an option. I have a video on how to add R-value to ICF and it covers this. Great idea and it would work great.
great video am looking how to get true r 60 wall with icf for passive house any help would be great
Watch this video I have. I would use the combination of an XR35 block and then order a 10 or 12 inch core and install additional insulation sleeves. Fastest and easiest way to add R-value to ICF.
How to Add Insulation to an ICF Wall
czcams.com/video/L_Y9zP7chYQ/video.html
thank you for the reply
You’re welcome
Man I m so happy I came across your video, I m in the process of building a vacation house and it is the first time I m using ICF, my foundation is on a 10 cm xps and my walls are 5x15x15 cm, the house is 200 Sm so i guess i could walk around in shorts in the winter. I don't think the temperature falls that low in my country (Romania) but will see.
One quick question : what would you recommend for air circulation ? Thank you
I don’t understand the dimensions but either way I would use an HRV for air circulation.
@@uptokode centimeters and square meters
Thanks.
Awesome info. I have a question, for the slab in this building did you do an inside brick ledge to support the slab or just let it "float"?
Thanks
Great question. I’m not sure if I included a photo of the slab install. It might be there. But no we didn’t use a brick ledge. We cut out 4” x 4” pieces of foam and then doweled in 15mm rebar to support the slab.
Nudura makes a Brick Ledge Form Unit that does exactly that. You install on the top course of the frost wall and then build the regular walls up from there. It’s available in the standard 2 5/8” EPS thickness; not sure about the 4” X35 EPS - call Nudura & ask - they’re very creative problem solvers!
Thanks Cynthia! And yes that’s why I like Nudura so much.
i dont understand why you would need a vapor barrier on the ceiling
How do I find a designer and a contractor in Chicago, IL?
Good question. Start with your local ICF distributor. They will know how to narrow down the search. Find someone who is practical and doesn’t overthink the ICF system.
what type of heat do you have for this gas or electrcity for radant floore and havac
Natural gas for forced air which is majority of the heating. Supplemental heat by in-floor which is also gas fired appliance (boiler in this case)
Kody, does the in-floor heating have liquid or water in the lines? (Do they make forced air systems in under-slab PEX?)
Floor heat is typically fluid. Glycol is ideal. Sometimes water.
Have you built any passive houses?
No not yet. Been asked to but they are always out of province or out of country
Wind chill does not affect the building. This was discussed when missile was mis functioning. Wind chill affects only all red blooded animals. So wind chill temperature should not affect building,
How long to heat it back up
45 minutes to recover the heat.
I had that question too. I assume the 45 minutes is the time to heat up the air in the envelope, but now all the concrete is starting from a lower temperature. How long does it take to warm the walls & slab back up to the 21 deg C? Thanks!
Who knows the true answer to that? You would have to test how often the HVAC runs and get a baseline. Then after a test like this, the hvac may run more frequently until it reaches the baseline. That’s takes a lot of time and effort.
Superb question by the way!!
So you’re in Red Deer?
I am yes
👍👍👍