Is this goodbye? Mirage 2000 || Razbam & Eagle Dynamics Drama || DCS World
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
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Timestamps:
00:00 - The Situation / Taxi & Takeoff
02:49 - The sortie: Heading for the AO
03:13 - Razbam's mention of Heatblur/3rd parties
05:57 - Speculative: Strike Eagle/Razbam's future
07:19 - The sortie: Harrier & Viggen, hot
09:19 - Heading for an A-10 near Tiyas
10:22 - Juggling sensors and reports, many Hornets
12:11 - Opportunistic posturing
12:52 - I'm sorry A-10
13:28 - Sortie SITREP & honing in on a Hornet
14:50 - Landing
15:17 - Closing thoughts, outro & links
Fin
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I want to make it clear that all I’m doing here is just reporting on what I’ve read since the debacle began, and at this stage don’t feel there’s enough info to take a side.
Honestly, it sounds like there might not be a moral high ground here to take, and that the biggest take away is the lack of professionalism on both sides.
But as a player and content creator the extent this all seems to be rocking the boat is giving me some cause for concern about the future of not just Razbam’s modules - which I love - but also any other 3rd party modules that might suffer in some capacity as a result of the fallout.
Mostly though, I’m just absolutely gutted about the MiG-23 😭
Same. Nobody looks great in this. Either somebody is lying their arses off, or both parties have boggled things quite badly. Also seriously bummed about the MiG-23. That was the only upcoming module I was truly excited for.
I don't see myself buying any others if its actually gone - I don't have confidence that the rug isn't going to get yanked out from under all of us one of these days.
Overstratos who is charge of the Flogger development seems optimistic still on the raz-discord. Whatever that means
@@magicsharkwizard4577
Well that’s reassuring
Good take and very reasonable.
@@magicsharkwizard4577 I certainly hope there's reason for optimism. But then again, that's what a CEO in his position WOULD say, so....
MIG-21 was Leatherneck, they seprated and the emerging companys was Magnitude and Heatblur. Magnitude holds the rights for the MIG21 not ED. F5 is true, former company merged with ED.
Didn’t some of leatherneck go on to found Heatblur as well? I thought that was the case although I could be wrong.
I live perching up at 45k ft in the M2K and diving down on Harriers and A-10s like a falcon. Then swooping back up. That high, you can cruise at .92 Mach on military power and SAMs can’t touch you if you just go cold
It’s an untouchable beast if flown well in a Fox-1 environment, it was the first module where things started to click for me and I started enjoying the game, love it to bits.
I'd be the harrier lol I'm so trash but everyone's gotta start somewhere
@@ethan3818 everyone is the harrier sometimes. I always get shot a lot more than i land. The youtube guys mowing people down are the exceptions. Most of us get ALOT fewer landings than takeoffs on multiplayer
A bunch of Reddit comments made by the Razbam dude have been deleted. Among them ones saying that Razbam would quit developing for DCS altogether.
To me, this all sounds like completely unnecessary nonsense. Razbam and ED should have talked it out behind closed doors instead of initiating a rantfest online.
what do you think happened tha last 8 months ?
if you can't resolve a situation behind closed doors escalating to the public domain might be the only path forward. I don't know any of the details of this but suppose you're a company, usually you'll have debts to service in expectation of future revenue so if you're not getting paid there's a hard time limit until you have to either get your money or start selling shit off and ultimately enter bankruptcy.
@arron4749 We dont know what actually happened (yet). All you think you know came from Reddit statements and Discord messages. Nothing concrete. Its easy to take sides, thinking "small indie dev vs. giant evil corp" etc. but thats too simple.
ED basically (until now) only reacted with one official (professional) statement, while RB staff have been sharing screenshots on Twitter deleting their DCS folder and other nonsense on Reddit that was deleted just hours after the fact, which seems immature to me.
Just a couple hours ago (on 7th April) they shared yet another statement saying they definitely will NOT drop support for their products and that they will resolve this internally together with ED.
As I said: Its a %($°-show. Completely unnecessary and the more I have read during the last days the more I got the impression that RB was throwing a fit in a very overreacting way.
@@Spicysauced Check the statements history, the first aggressive one was definitely on ED side, in response to the first official statement from Razbam which was professional. The shitshow went just after.
I don't think I would purchase another Razbam module if they did stick around and sort this issue out... The shady tactic of publicly airing grievances over contractual disputes is probably in and of itself a breach of contract, and is certainly a breach of trust going forward.
I don't believe for a second this story that ED is withholding payment over 'uh, like corporate greed, man'... Of all the companies out there doing flight sims, not many make a profit, and a small one if they do. This is a niche of a niche market; and IMO we are all lucky ED is around to provide this product at all
But I need the Floggeeeerrrr 😭😭😭
Don't worry, it will be developed by ED
If Razbam is taking hostages by stopping support for modules, we should be allowed to get a refund for them.
Hard not to agree with that
On the other hand if RB are being honest and their version of events is true, you cannot reasonably expect them to work for nothing. In which case the ball is in ED's court and it is they who are holding ransom.
I agree
The problem is that when you take your customers (or the merchandise they sold to them) hostage, you are not playing fair. If there is a contract between two parties (and there is...), and there is a disagreement between the parties, that is a matter between them, or between them and a court of law. If one of the parties involves a third party (the customers, who are arguably tied to BOTH original ones), particularly ones that have no involvement in the original contract, then they are by definition not negotiating in good faith. Bringing this out into the public view (which was done by RAZBAM), is (by itself) clearly out of the realm of good faith, and by choosing to cease support is even more so. Customers should be able to get refunds (even if they have to come from ED in the short term), and that should definitely effect any amount owed to RAZBAM. I suspect that they mat have just shot themselves in the foot (or perhaps a somewhat higher location), since, if I was CEO of ED, would prompt me to bring out the lawyers, and cancel any future relationships with RAZBAM. My suspicion is that something like that is already afoot, and that the best we can hope for is that ED (who own rights to the code of the modules based on the outcome of the whole VEAO debacle) will continue to maintain the current modules. Whether the Strike Eagle is ever finished, well, I suspect it will be a low priority for a long time... Personally, I don't own the F-15E (and am now happy I don't), but LOVE the Mirage and the Harrier. It would be very sad indeed to lose them...
I mean, if its suspected that Razbam hasn't been paid by ED. Wouldn't ED be in charge of the refunds?
Bullet, you have hit nail on head, Razbam for stopping all support on their modules is very wrong decision for everyone who has bought any of their products. ED and Razbam need to step up their professionalism because at the end of the day its the player base that provide their income to survive and the passion in aviation that brings in the trust for these people to manage and deliver projects with the best quality. Because of this situation my proception of Razbam and ED has changed and I'm now not willing to go and support EA modules thinking that they will support and finish their projects, while building and growing together.
It just doesn't sit well for me in a "he said, she said" discord scuffle. So unprofessional and very so un-needed in the DCS community.
go to your boss and tell him you don't want to get paid, see how long you last without going homeless. This is the situation RAZBAM is in right now.
You did not purchase anything from Razbam. You purchased them from ED. ED being in a dispute with its subcontractor, might not be able to maintain ITS products. It's quite different.
Instead of thinking win/lose, there should be a way to make this into a win/win for all parties concerned. Whether it be IP rights, monetary, no company is an island and it takes two hands to clap. No matter what, developers still have mouths to feed and can't work without getting paid. Hope they find a common ground to move forward on.
As a developer - who has been ripped off 11k unpaid wages in the past I completely understand where they might be coming from if they haven't been paid, as a consumer, and someone who owns all the HeatBlur content, and 3 of the 4 Razbam I am deeply concerned I am about to get butt dumped, several of my favourite aircraft being made redundant is super crap honestly.
English is not your first language ?
@@vimfuego8827 useless and salty comment
@@vimfuego8827 One of five ? why ?
This situation greatly lowered my confidence in purchasing future modules. I was about to buy the new map of Afghanistan and the F-4 Phantom, but who can promise me that in the near future, they will no longer be supported? And what will happen to the modules made by Razbam that I purchased?
Same, I will not be purchasing any more DLC for this game until all this debacle has cleared and I’m reassured that my current Razbam DLC (I own all the modules made by Razbam) will be able to be used in the future.
we need assuarances if 3rd party developer goes nuts ED gets ownership of module code and continues without them..simple as that
I made the mistake of buying SuperCarrier. What a waste of money
@marksuitano5206
Why’s that a waste? SC isn’t Razbam, is it?
@@Bullet4MyEnemy Afghanistan map is also not Razbam ... In my comment, I refer to the first comment from @gomes389
loved the format. relaxed talk while preping for combat. and nice outro music
There is no upside for RAZBAM if they are not telling the truth. There is no positive outcome for dropping support of your products if you don't absolutely have to.
Sick of people defending ED no matter what. This situation sucks but can't we all just think for a moment?
Bought the Strike Eagle 2 weeks ago and am totally impressed. I also like the Harrier and Mirage, I hope this gets worked out. But the allegations on the forum against Razbam are a bit troubling. If they did build a product for the Salvadoran military using the DCS platform, that appears to be a violation of both the DCS user agreement and ED third-party contracts. The allegations make Razbam look a bit shady. Funny thing is, neither side can afford lawyers, this definitely ain't going to court. There are 145,000 users on the forum. If each user buys 5 modules that is like 40 million in sales. I hope there is enough to go around.
They make RB look shady? Why would they lie? What possible reason would they have? What could they possibly gain by disturbing their customers?
Also how long are you willing to work without pay while the people selling your work get rich?
@@KevTCC I'm not taking either side until all the information is laid out. But the contract could have been written in a way such that ED would take a lower percentage of the sales if they got the rights to the code. And if that was agreed upon, then if RB goes and tries to use the code to double dip and make extra money developing for another company, that's a breach of contract and ED would be owed a portion of all the sales to that other company. That would be shady. But we don't know any concretes, so it's all speculation.
It doesn't really matter whos wrong we all love jets here and we hate to see them go, just get things settled privately and push foward
as someone who got interested in fighters and wants to become a fighter pilot because of the Mirage; then later finding that it was available for DCS; this disheartens me. I hope both parties can resolve these issues like adults and just work it out.
I see people complain about this inconveniencing them and they should figure it out some other way, but that's just the way it goes if "figuring out some other way" fails. I think this is similar to a workers' strike, which doesn't make things convenient for consumers, but it's often perceived as necessary for the workers.
They're both publically traded companies, aren't they? In theory shouldn't we be able to use their financial documents as a legitimate source of information? At worst, we wait for this quarter to be published so we can see their balance sheets and more important Cash Flow Statements to either support or deny both sides.
They are privetly held companies. Not much of interest available.
@@NiklasAndersson7 Razbam I can understand, thought for sure ED was big enough to go public, then again if it was we’d see a lot more of this Early Access bs being pushed than it already is. Either way looks like we really are strapping in for a long ride.
They are not.
This could be EDs great moment when they get authentic and fix this cluster fuck. This is clearly a make or break moment in the platforms history.
This is one of the most cogent comments I have read on any platform about this situation.
True, but I HIGHLY doubt it'll happen. ED is on the record, even recently, as saying without the early access model, they aren't financially viable. That's from their own mouths, and Wags has mentioned that in interviews/podcasts as well.
If it IS just about money, I'd suggest ED raises the prices across the board. I know that won't be a popular opinion, but between a choice of paying 80 to 100 per module, instead of 60 to 80 and having the entire ED company fold, I know which I'd pick.
Russian companies generally don't have a great reputation in the West for meeting their financial (and other) obligations.
Time will tell.
@@Gman-109 Indeed. I find it a shame that all the main sim/flight combat companies are from that country. I moved to DCS after I became sick of Gajin's shennanigans (which turned out to be a fabulous decision), and I stopped buying any more stuff in IL2 after their moderator turned out to be publicly outspoken. Now, I don't want politics to affect my sim flying but when any company allows such politics to impinge, I'm out. And it's not just public politics but the culture of the company I'm talking about. I have been hoping with fingers crossed that ED was different. They moved out, after all. But they have history - their main dev was gaoled for exporting F-16 plans in 2017-18. ED did distance themselves from that. My concern is that you can take the company out of a culture, but can you take that culture out of the company? The culture in question loving secrecy, a penchant for conspiracy, greed and a kneejerk reaction to blaming customers for any problems. So far, ED has been different when it comes to their retail customers. Does this incident show they have these issues with their B2B partners? I don't know, but I am concerned.
@@Gman-109 yeah, all of that is true and concerning.
Sad to hear that there is rumbling between the 3rd party development and ED
Why does the mirage sound like a McDonald’s kitchen
She do be beepin’
You can just turn the horn off for audio feedback and go visual only but I don’t think I’m attentive enough not to die without it yelling advice at me 😅
Really sad that this basically kills development of the MiG-23 as well, and the M2K is such a good module definetly. Top 3 in my books.
I'm more upset about the 23 than anything else, was easily as hyped for that as the Phantom.
At least the F-100 and MiG-17 are hopefully still coming.
@Bullet4MyEnemy Yeah really MiG-23 and MiG-29 were the ones I was really hyped for, espessially the 23. Now it's all gone sideways.
@@crazygmanssimstuff We simply cant have more ff redfor, our reality would simply implode so ED and RB are just looking out for us c:
@@crazygmanssimstuff much especially knowing RCG would model the radar and many more systems, he is singlehandedly the best developer I've ever seen, no shortcuts taken on his F-15E radar simulation
@nero995 Yeah, with him gone... it's just tragic
bad news for all customers of these modules,
it sounds like a good number of extremely influential staff that worked there no longer wish to return, so it's not longer set in stone that the quality of RAZBAM modules may ever return to the top 3 spot
Knowing how disappointing the modules will be if ED takes over, i'd probably refund them on the spot if Raz goes under
I guess when people don't get paid they leave...
If Raz is serious about pulling out, the company will inevitably go under. That would be like me owning a coffee shop and deciding I no longer want to rent out the only commercial building in town.
It is absolutely baffling how dedicated these DCS devs (ED, third party dev, community manager, or otherwise) are to being the most reply guy type of people possible.
I bought the f15e and then 2 days later all this drama started when i read razbam would not be updating it anymore i got my money back thank god i feel bad for all of you guys that its too late to get a refund
Note.
BST was part of Eagle Dynamics. They were a detached group that was made to demonstrate the 3rd party system.
Once they were no longer needed the detachment was re-absorbed.
The only losers will be the consumers, airing disputes in public forums and holding to ransom products that people have paid for to use as leverage to force an outcome is nothing short of a pathetic management style in dealing with what should have been a closed door issue between businesses. The RB range of products are amazing, the time, effort and commitment by all involved has been exemplary - but this farcical exchange leaves a very suspicious, dispondent and bitter taste... come on guys - its never too late to salvage the issue and protect your most valuable resource, we the consumer... or do I need to ask for a refund ?
The consumers are not the only losers. The independent developer (person) that spent two years developing the F-15E radar on its own cash, and is missing those years of income, is loosing significantly more.
@@ChwibonWell if RB does pull out of DCS, that’s complete and irreparable loss of income. Because the company will not stand on its own.
They are apparently in the process of working it out. Whew...
Man, what the fuck. I was just talking with a buddy about how excited I was for the MiG-23.
If this is truly curtains for razbam support, I don't exactly trust ED to actually patch things well, based on their track record with....well, any of their modules.
We’ll see what’s going to happen. Only thing is, I’ve seen first hand ED display and actually pull some shady behavior before and screwing over a dev team I was heavily involved with. It was really low what they did and how they did it. So I wouldn’t be surprised, but we will see.
For once, I'm so glad I never bought the Strike Eagle and went for Normandy 2 instead of South Atlantic
So, I would say I am a bit invested in these modules., I have all of them. Strike Eagle is in EA! I mean, really? This is a problem with far-sweeping consequences. No one else is providing study-level modules!
Welp, not the Mirage2k can no longer pull more than 6g from a cold start.. it's already begun.
Honestly i dont think theres a reasonable reason to withold payment. Even if razbam did violate IP then ED should sue them for that and keep it a different issue
It seems a bit like a back and forth, Razbam might have been the first to cast a stone, ED retaliated by withholding payment, Razbam have then pulled support and development on existing and upcoming modules.
It’s like a tennis match and we’re the ball, Razbam are using us for leverage and ED are using money.
There’s no telling how it’s going to end but I don’t think it’ll be good for the players either way.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy either way it's not reasonable to expect them to continue working without being paid, and this was a pretty obvious outcome that ED should've foreseen
@@sageg58 It's not reasonable to pick sides with what we know right now...
@@marc-kevinquintin7574 so we'll just cut your paychecks while you work out an issue with your employer and see how long you wanna keep working then. I'll bet it's not 8 months straight.
@@marc-kevinquintin7574 what we know now, is that there was an IP dispute over something completely unrelated to the F-15, and ED decided to stop paying them for the F-15. That's a pretty obvious outcome. If ED kept these issues separate the eagle would still be getting update and the 23 would still be in development
This failure to pay the 3rd party devs happened to Heatblur, too, back when the F-14 was first released. ED failed to pay HB all the pre-sale and post-sale revenue they were due for almost a year. So, this happening to RB isn't surprising given the scope and popularity of the F-15E module. ED came into too much money with the release of the module and mishandled it leading to a failure to pay the 3rd party. I don't think it's on purpose, but ED is a very noticeably poorly managed company at least from an outside perspective.
Gonna back that statement up with more than just your own typing?
@@koughbrawthe guy wrote a CZcams comment, not a news article
@@koughbraw I'm not gonna argue in a youtube comment section. How about going through and reading all the statements being made by the RB and ED teams then go find when this happened to HB. It was a pretty big deal when it happened. Stay informed.
@@skull6740really doesn't matter. This is what's wrong with the internet. If you don't have proof for what your saying just don't say it. So many people act as if they know what they're talking about without an actual clue. Not saying this is or isn't the case here. But asking for sources is exactly what should be happening.
@@wubforceone I think It's free speech for anyone who wants to comment as the video op asked for others opinions, as for the source of any Info I'm sure you could look that up for yourself, that's the benefit of having a wealth of Information online.🤗
I hope no one incites more division and create a split; which does no one any good, for each company and the customers. From what I gather, its a complex situation and both seemed to have done some perhaps questionable actions. Not sure if it's just bluffing from both sides.
I just bought the Afghanistan map, and already the F-4e; this creates a conundrum for me whether I will ever buy another pre-release as my comfort zone has been shattered.
I like RazBam products, I have several including the Mirage M-2000, so This hurts. I think Eagle Dynamics is in a unique situation as they deal with fairly small companies that might even be just part time people who are passionate about aviation and flight simming. Not sure how professional these guys are.
I’m getting Hawk flash backs where i bought it on day one of release and then the developers stopped updating and refused to give ED the rights to the aircraft and left allot of us 42.00 down. I think we will feel this even more as razbam have made allot more content that I also own 😢
"Merci pour vos condoléances pour cet avion si emblématique du monde de la cuisine aéronautique, car il était souvent comparé à une pelle à tarte en termes de manœuvrabilité. Cependant, son principal défi était d'adapter son complexe système Fox 1 et de le comparer en combat BVR (Beyond Visual Range) avec ses concurrents de la même génération. Cette comparaison entre le Fox 1 et le Fox 3 laisse perplexe ceux qui ne sont pas familiarisés avec le sujet. Bon vol à toi, Mirage 2000C."
I've never really dared to try it in a Fox 3 environment, save it for Fox 1 jousts where a merge is more likely and allows for its "pie server" manoeuvrability to come into play 👌
Welcome to the "Sim Dark Ages" my friends. We're going the way of the Hawk T.1 boys. :(
The Mirage looks so graceful up there in the smooth air..I have spent the last few weeks wrestling 10 ton Helicopters around on the deck.
Is this module worth the buy..despite its uncertain future?
It is feature complete as far as I’m aware, so the only danger is if it does become abandonware, will that include bugs that might develop off the back of changes to other aspects of the sim?
And I don’t have an answer for that.
As things are right now, it’s my favourite Gen4 module for Air to Air, handles like a dream and has some really nice unique features and quirks; modelling is to a very high standard and it’s a beast at what it does.
But with the future uncertain I’d advise holding off until we get some assurances about where all this drama is going.
I'm concerned for my dearest F-15E, Mirage, and Harrier 😭
MiG-19 too :(
Cracks have already started appearing
I'm starting to look now at the afghanistan map PRE SALE as a sort of crowdfunding.. 😅
Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of speculation around “Halfganistan” being cut up for funding reasons, and people are using the same logic to explain why it hasn’t been a legal dispute behind closed doors as well.
Personally I don’t think ED can be short on money, just some quick maths on sales figures we know of puts their earnings easily in the tens of millions and that’s without knowing anything about government sim contracts.
Plus there are all the records being dug up online of Nick Grey taking out interest free loans from ED to the tune of almost 10 mil; if the business were struggling they’d probably want to keep that sort of dosh in their own coffers, not handing it to the CEO for free.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy what U say makes perfect sense, I was just triggered from the overlap of those two events
gotta keep ringing the razbell!!
🐸🔔🐸🔔🐸🔔🐸🔔🐸🔔
I really picked the wrong year to get into the Harrier and M2000...
Hello, What is this the server name? Is it 80s?
It’s the Contention server, limited to Fox-1 missiles - so kind of 80s, though helmet sights on the Viper/Hornet are still available.
I wish they would do the Mirage 2000 upgrade option to a 2000-5 like HB did theF-14A and F-14B. That would be Awsome.
Yeah, would make it a lot more competitive if it got Fox-3s and the ability to carry 6 rather than just 4 missiles.
If RAZBAM modules will be pulled like the HAWK was pulled... yeah that will be the end for me when it comes to DCS. The game is already only really there because it pulls monopoly and no other modern/cold war era game comes close to it. I wonder if we can get cracks or some way a trainer to have the game be open so even if the big corpos drop our purchased products and try to fuck us, we can still play with modules that lost 'support' Frustrating times for sure.
Has the ED / RAZBAM issue been resolved yet?
Latest evidence suggests no, few Razbam employees still commenting in places today there’s been no change.
They fight this out on the backs of their customers... this shows the mindset of both - razbam and ed.
If ED has any sense then going on from now on they should not allow any 3rd party developers to own any rights to the modules, and they can do this if they adopt a new model.... sub-contracting the work out to them instead of a partnership.
Crap, I was getting ready to pull the trigger on the F15. I think I will hold off for now. Bullet dodged, matrix style.
Is the M-2000C systems rework already done? Does the Mig-19P already have reworked its flight dynamics model and systems? Is finally the Harrier reworked?
I don't have the Harrier but my understanding is that it was overhauled a while ago, the Mirage saw a lot of updates after COVID including the radar, flight model, weapons, engine and more recently the IFF system, and the 19 had a flight model rework at some point within the last couple of years as well - my understanding is that they're all basically finished modules - as in, complete, not done with.
Maybe thats way the M2K wasnt on sale for more than a year
No Razbam modules have been on sale
@@Bullet4MyEnemy mhh ok...well... How this Story will effect the F-15E?
@@klofisch
No updates for the last few patches, no one knows beyond that
@@Bullet4MyEnemy doesn't sound good
i hope this gets resolved because it would suck for us if they pull the modules they made. i like the Mirage and the Eagle.
I would be distraught if I lost my Mirage or MiG-19
So no more updates to the still very underdeveloped south Atlantic map then! I bought it not too long ago, found it to be uninteresting and bland. So I uninstalled it and decided to revisit it when it’s more developed and gets some interesting missions for it.
What a waste of money that was 😢
Everyone who bought the the f15e are concerned now.
ED are here to stay:
Mig29 ff
Chinook
Maps
Why are heatblur and other 3rd party devs pushing out vids on their new content?
It's just a whole lot of buyer's remorse going on. After the harrier was released I knew that I would never buy another razbam product in early access. My assumptions were confirmed when the disaster of a mig 19 launch happened (it got pushed back 2 weeks by ED telling them it didn't meet QA, after launch you couldn't even stall the jet no matter what you did)
I don't know the details to this drama but my money is always on over razbam
I have no inside info. However, id guess there's truth to both sides. Im sure we, the consumer will not be the winner in the end.
you gunned me in the a-10! stop doin that! :D
Sorrrryyyyy - was honestly surprised I didn't miss, bloody hate the snake style gunsight in this thing
Eagle Dynamics will not fold, Razbam may and that is a shame but not the end of the story.
I have a good one for ya, switch to falcon BMS ;)
I'm perfectly fine with Ed not paying razbam as razbam has not provided the harrier with a radar yet...
It shouldn’t even have one, should it? Wrong variant.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy the night attack version did not have a radar the harrier 2 plus did. We were promised that variant But also there are other bugs and problems with the harrier that make it not worth buying I stopped flying it for those reasons it was my favorite just look at the problems with the f-15 that they also don't address. The flight model buffett's ridiculously and half of the avionics are unfinished. Yet we paid them.... As far as I can see it they did have to work they got half the pay...and the customers were defrauded
I'm not gonna take a Side in this debacle regardless of which side said or did what in the beginning, middle and End tbh. the way both sides chose to handle this publicly was too damn stupid and unprofessional for my taste. doesn't change how I view DCS as a Game & simulator one bit. don't think we're gonna lose any of the modules we have since they are the property of ED once they're launched into DCS, and for the M2K, AV8B, SA & the F-15E, I don't think they're getting removed from DCS anyway. no reason for them to be tbh. and I don't care how it ends in the end. Someone else will make the Mig-23 if Razbam doesn't and we're still getting the Mig-29A at some point.
Honestly don't care how this pans out. just really stupid to see two supposedly professional companies devolve into kindergarden grade finger-pointing in public like they did.
But seems like they grew up fast and realized they where both hurting themselves with this shit and started talking to eachother behind closed doors like they should have from the beginning.
The end of the story is, its management at fault, but its being taken out on the workers who didn't deserve this at all, they've got families to support. How are they going to do that without any money?
Additionally apparently it happened over the Streagle and Raz not handing over the source code. I understand both side of the argument as they are shown, but ED only had to say, we cannot put the module on sale due to a contract dispute. But no, they put it on sale, took the money and now hold it hostage and put the workers in limbo. Not a good look for ED and they definitely need a new head of media. Additionally, this is a repeat, same happened to HB when the F-14 was released.
That last sentence, yeah - 100%
Nick Grey’s official response read like something written by a person with no PR training whatsoever.
Honestly that gives me hope. The tomcat is a shining light in DCS now so if they have dealt with this before, I'mma bet they can do it again. I've been debating switching up my main module from the eagle to the viper or hornet but knowing it's not their first time sorting out a fiasco like this makes this seem like a bad dust up between two relatively reasonable standpoints and two very unprofessional discord posters. I'll keep flying my favorite bird but I'm still nervous as hell about it. Aside from the phantom which I've already paid for, I definitely will not be doing any more early access though.
@@looneyhoonzinc I got my streagle from a refund of the Phantom (which was more bs i called HB out on) I own the hornet and Viper, I would say the viper makes more sense in how its designed but the flight model is constantly being overhauled and things like iff or ins being broken each patch. The hornets good, just not as fun imo. personally I would hold back on any purchases atm until this has cleared, because its a lose-lose situation. The fear of another 3rd party developer joining Razbams side and making this a war/mutiny and the disasterous communications from ED in Grey and the recent 10 Questions video makes the risk to high, at least for me. I'm going to personally hold back and wait and see because if ED pulls up the short stick, a lot of people are going to leave, and as someone who plays for the multiplayer aspect, more dead servers would kill the game for me.
Putting all my purchases on hold until ED/Razbam situation is resolved. Seems that ED is not acting like a fair player. Smart business sense would be for ED to take care of its developers.
When have they ever been fair? They literally don’t even care to get the game at the place it should be and they could.
As far as I understand there's 0 chance of Razbam being able to somehow pull their modules out of DCS because of the contracts. If it went down to a legal battle ED would most certainly win, and they wouldn't even need to be in the right to do so. They could just outspend Razbam until they win since Razbam doesn't have the funds to fight legally. I've also seen people mentioning that ED has screwed heatblur in the past over payments but it clearly can't be that bad as they are still working on modules and they also publicly refused to get involved in this drama. If ED was this evil organization that screws all contractors don't you think the others would join in once the first stone is thrown?
Other 3rd parties have complained about EDs treatment, albeit in more subtle ways. Saying things like ED is terrible to work with etc etc. ED is definitely not innocent here
I think Heatblur are keeping clear because they don’t want to jeopardise the Phantom when it’s so close to release and already been delayed twice - they could be fully in support but have their hands tied.
We don’t know what other leverage the rest of the development teams have to stir the pot either.
Its ok i still have the F1.
ah yes the dirty laundry lets goo
F4U Corsair 2 more weeks😊
The F-5 was Belsimtek who actually *were* Eagle Dynamics (another branch based in Belarus) kind of masquerading as their own partner developer - because these guys can't seem to do anything that's not shifty and suspect feeling. That's why, unlike every RAZBAM aircraft, it has a great flight model.
The F-5 was Belsimtek, which was taken over by ED - it was practically part of ED anyway. My worry is that we get the same outcome as we did with the Hawk and it disappeared. ED did not take over the running or fixing of that module and it died with DCS 1.5.
Probably because it wasn't a popular module
@@Nightdare no, the developer wouldn’t give them the permissions to allow development to continue. It was popular enough, there was enough of an outcry about it at the time. It’s a module that I’d bought and lost.
@@_od_7825
Which makes me think that ED learnt from that experience
The fact that there isn't any attempt to get a mediator involved is not good, usually means shenanigans has been going on with one of the parties involved. What those shenanigans are we not likely find out until the brown stuff well and truly touches the blades.
you didnt set your altimiter correctly smh
Don't worry everyone, they'll kiss and make up and ask will be fine.
The history of Eagle Dynamics and DCS is a long one, they will not fold because of Razbam. So, calm down people, there are rumbles under the hood that we are not privy to. Razbam should know better than this.
I'm on the side of ED, if you have ever had any questions or need help from Razbam, its terrible. An incredibly toxic company that struggles to fix any issues with there products and will basically outcast you for asking for help with an issue.
As you have said, the real loser here is the consumer, these modules are expensive, even losing 1 developer like Razbam, those modules cost a ton of money, does the support for those modules just disappear in the ether then along with your hard earned cash?
The real loser is not the consumer, but the actual developer (person) that did a 2+ years unpaid work.
Its a bad divorce story, where we are the children along with the products Razbam made.
I try to stay neutral in it.
Considering that the products are made for DCS; if they really want to quit, they should hand over the code to ED. That way at least they would save their face in face of the community. I am not defending ED, but I cannot defend RazBam either.
Then at least we would know who is at fault if these products became unsupported in the future.
well if razbam leaves, i guess we wont be getting the MiG-23
It is still possible, they can sell the MiG-23 project to ED or some other 3rd party
There’s no moral high ground here. This makes both Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM look terrible. Because ultimately, it fucks over the consumer. The reality is that DCS isn’t going anywhere. They hold a practical monopoly over combat flight sims (yes, there are others but with nowhere near the market of DCS). RAZBAM of course has a right to get paid, and if ED is holding out, ED should get fucked. But stopping development hurts nobody but the consumer. Not to mention, if they are completely pulling out of DCS, that would be business self-deletion for RAZBAM. RAZBAM needs ED as a publisher (again, ED holding a practical monopoly over that market) in order to survive. If RAZBAM pulls out, the company goes under.
Fucking hell...
I think it is ED not making the money to pay and it is dire. The evidence for this claim, the continuous repeating sales.
I have to believe that both companies are smart enough to know that they are jeopardizing the future of this hobbie for everyone. I am tired of the whole EA, Pre-order, and waiting a decade for bug fixes. Life is just not that long. Something has to get fixed. Maybe bring this to the surface has to happen. The only truth I do know is in the long run it is the consummer that ends up paying.
All I can say is it's pretty disappointing considering the money I've recently invested in this game both in software and hardware. Fingers crossed right?
I think that's the best we can do, unfortunately
Seeking logic in business relations? You should try politics, it makes slightly more sense. I myself moved from company work to academic research. It is being your own boss in some sense, far less corporate like bullshit.
When it hits Public in our face the lawyers have already took a stand IMO and now the stink of wrong doing is out in the open for us to wonder what the crap are we going to loose. Razbam opened the door to peak in. ED is running on the fly. Who Knows why or what. As a small nothing in the Customer base I have been under the heal of ED for speaking out about the only Model the ED team will not put one second of time into. Flaming Cliffs get updated ever Jet in the game gets Updated Every Helicopter gets updated but NOT the UH-1H HUEY we are pushed under the carpet and if you open your mouth about bugs that they still have not fixed for over 5 years now they punish you like plantation owners. The rubber stamp answer is Someday on a update with anger your told The Team is working on other projects. NOT one Major update just band aid crap that ends up screwing something up more. Razbam has my support. I do not trust ED or Nick Gray it looks like he runs his world like a 3rd world dictator to me.
so my 6000 rupees wasted?
Razbam forgot their place, the job description said “Make modules” not “Get paid”
Do you have a basic understanding on how the world works?
Another guy with no idea of how business works stoking the fire. Tired of ignorant hot takes by Reddit scholars.
RAZBAM are clearly massively unprofessional. Simple.
We need Elon to buy ED.
Elon already has ED
Elon musk? The way he’d kill the game just like he did Twitter would be insane.
yeah well fuck, Eagle Dynamics needs to go under and give development to younger fresher talent. 1960s company management is quite outdated.
This isn't about development, it's about company policy and contracts
Developers can't run companies and develop at the same time
So make the new game then? I'll wait
MFS is having a huge laugh at this I bet.
Well, I saw somewhere that Metal2Mesh now also joined Razbam in accusing ED. The way that ED is price-gouging us consumers is sickening. When I voiced these sentiments on the Steam DCS discussion forum, my post was banned. So, yeah I believe ED is milking both consumers and developers at the same time through pure greed.
Metal2Mesh is, or was, Razbam’s lead 3D modeller as I understand it.
So his support for Razbam comes from him being quite a significant part of their operation.
@@Bullet4MyEnemy Quite right, it's part of the same "family", maybe lessens the significance somewhat
Honestly I kinda think the biggest problem is that us DCS simmers tend to be both cheap and whiny. We expect constant updates for some module they spent $60 on like 5 years ago which is unrealistic
Yea honestly it is, with the end of the Super Tucano as well DCS is collapsing like a house of cards. The fact that Nick Gray is even accused of embezzling module profits does not bode well for ED's financial situation whatsoever. The first escalation had to do with the F-15E's source code and ED holding the module hostage over it, and ED simply aren't good enough to reverse engineer the modules source code. o7 beloved M2k
"dcs is collapsing like a house of cards" seems extremely dramatic
I would hold that module hostage as well
Imagine you being ED and putting up the preorder for a module by 'x' and you pay X an agreed % of the sales, you sell 1000 preorders in the first month, that's $40k easy
Developer bags the cash and then says "Sorry, don't feel like putting in any more work, bye!"
My guess is that ED tries to put in insurances that 3rd party developers deliver, because ED gets to bare the brunt of the criticism and probably claims for refunds
.....just look at Star Citizen to see how a developer can abuse this
If I were ED, I'd put in some clause that until the module is deemed 'ready', a developer doesn't get the full % yet as incentive to keep working and deliver a good product in acceptable time
And developers should stop complaining, I come from a time where they FIRST had to DELIVER a FINISHED product BEFORE they could make money
@@Nightdare First of all Star Citizen releases more complete and better fidelity ships per year than DCS has in total, and it's more than just a ship game including FPS, mining, bounty hunting, trading, ect, with seamless ground to space transition. Secondly, that's not what happened between RAZBAM and ED. RAZBAM couldn't complete the module because ED refused to play them.
@@TheDAWinz
You mean Star Citizen is milking people by never completing their game
And it couldn't be that ED refuses to pay them, because RAZBAM isn't completing the module?
There are contracts and clauses both parties have to adhere to
Razbam gets to do no more business with ED
ED gets to deal with lost modules and refunds and company future/customer trust
@@Nightdare "never completing the game" despite a large majority of features coming this next patch and will continue to come because that is the nature of a MMO, and Squadron 42 is already feature complete.
Ridiculously long video
razbam guys were never very bright to begin with. worst dev company ever
damn M2000 is my fav module as well
i fucking quit dcs hqd enough of eagle dynamics s bullshit dcs is shiiit