The Legacy of MMO Dungeons
Vložit
- čas přidán 2. 10. 2023
- Dungeons have been a staple of roleplaying games, from the earliest days of tabletop, to the earliest RPGs and MMOs all the way to modern day and we can't imagine an MMO without them. Today we go back in time and examine the history of MMO dungeons and how they changed over time.
----------
Displate: displate.com/preachgaming?art...
Gear: preachgaming.com/shop/
Twitter: @Preachgaming
Live Stream - twitch.tv/preachlfw
Website: preachgaming.com/
---------
Thanks to the lovely content creators who appeared in this video:
/ tettles
/ amovetv
/ naguura
/ scripe
/ krista
/ thdlock
/ okaymage
/ nobbel87
/ xaryu
/ zeplahq
/ tytykiller
/ anniefuchsia
/ dratnos
/ lavendervarya
/ xenosysvex
---------
Credits:
• The Legend of Zelda (N...
• Skyrim Dungeon Cleared...
dysonlogos.blog/
• Everquest Dungeon Craw...
/ @criticalrole
thewowdiary.com
/ john_staats_ama_author...
• Uldaman Side entrance,...
• WoW Classic Dire Maul ...
• World Of Warcraft Clas...
• Ahn'kahet: The Old Kin...
www.famitsu.com/news/202307/3...
• Elder Scrolls Online: ...
• World of Warcraft Devs...
• Uldaman +20 Season 2 D...
• Everquest P99 - Mistmo...
• WoW Cataclysm Guide - ...
• World Of Warcraft Clas... - Hry
Dungeons have been a mainstay of MMOs since their very foundation and show no signs of going away. What DO YOU think make the best MMO dungeon? Drop a comment and let us know.
So it's been a while since we posted 😅. We've had this video idea cooking for a long time, since we first got deep into Project MMO, so I hope you enjoy. We're expecting to be back in a studio space in November so production can ramp up then (barring stuff like fanfest, blizzcon, RWF etc), finding time and locations to film is very difficult when working from home. In any case, for the most part this is what you can now come to expect from the channel, less videos but they should largely be high quality productions. If you're looking for the more opinion piece stuff that you might be used to drop a subscribe over on www.youtube.com/@PreachHighlights. We'll have more of that stuff going up there.
There's the gameplay focused players and there's the world/atmosphere focused players and they're hard at odds with each other. When I queue into an M+ Keystone, I don't really care about the lore of the dungeon I'm doing, I want all RP to be gone, hell I didn't care about it the first time I saw it. One of the first changes I made when setting up my UI was hiding the talking head box and muting dialogue. I wish the developers good luck if they actually intend to try to please me as well as Jimmy over there whose playing through the dungeon while trying to learn every bit of the lore so he can consider how it might change his perspective on the lore and actions of the characters of the past.
Ben is such a cutie! Glad you included him ❤
Draupnir Cave in Aion 1.0 and Beshmundir Temple in Aion 2.0 was what I can only describe as diving into a small sub-continent. You really could get lost in those places, such a rare and unique experience. It wasn't a short stroll through something, not even a compact 40 minute experience, it was legit a 2 hour D&D campaign. The trek to the entrance was its own journey, having to traverse to PvP flagged zones and everything.
Play Turtle WoW to bring back some wonder and excitement :)
@@Liratanhave to say I'm in the middle. Big lore nerd but also like gameplay, so it's tough like.. yeah the lore stuff is cool but mechanical things are in the end what I'll be actually engaged with after the first maybe second run lol
BRD is still my favorite after all of these years. I remember liking it and coming back in classic I still loved it (can't say that about everything classic I used to like). Being able to do so many different runs. Jailbreak runs, Emperor runs, HoJ runs before it dropped off Emp, arena runs, so many others. Tons of quests, bosses, tons of routes through those different bosses. Love it all and was a blast to get to experience again.
BRD was one of those I always loved, but rarely had satisfying runs in LFD. I LOVE the whole Blackrock Mountain, and always wanted to go on extended dungeon delves of it, that of course rarely happened as people only wanted to kill the minimal amount of bosses needed to get that 'dungeon complete' XP chunk. Granted it wasn't a 'run it regularly' piece of content, BRD was huge and a time commitment, but the sprawling layout was just an experience. There are entire swaths with interesting bosses that rarely get done because they're not the key bosses.
@@whitehawkomega BRD to me is still the greatest dungeon ever made in WoW. But BRD in vanilla vs any other time in WoW was a completely different thing. Vanilla BRD was the idea of turning and entire zone into a dungeon. There were dozens of quests all linked to it, multiple different sections that scaled all the way from level 48 to level 60. It was never really designed to do a full run in one go. It was more about jumping in and do the section you needed either for quests or to farm the specific drops you wanted. There was also tons of reasons to go back to it later like the fact you need to craft the sulferon hammer on the black anvil in BRD to be able to make the legendary mace hand of ragnaros.
The main difference is vanilla WoW was built with a lot of RPG elements in mind and every other version of WoW was streamlined a lot more into this action adventure game that it is now.
I will agree with preach that the logistical side of classic WoW is always going to be an annoying thing but once you are past the logistics of getting a group together for the specific thing you want to do the game is soo much more immersive when you are actually playing it.
That and deadmines are easily my favorite dungeons.
It really nailed the mark they were going for of having multiple different runs and not expecting to full clear every time
BRD will always be my favorite dungeon. Different groups going on different paths, doing different bosses, and hitting the point where we're clearly underleveled but can barely manage to push through with janky strats to squeeze out an extra boss or two. But also, I fully admit that the time for BRD-likes has passed, and there's no way a BRD-like dungeon would be good in the current landscape of MMO expectations. As much as I loved it then, even I wouldn't want to stand around so long to find a group for it anymore. It's the kind of dungeon that works better in a single-player environment nowadays, imo.
My favorite dungeon is Blackrock Depths. So much variety and old school D&D dungeon feel.
The last scene of this video now stands out even more than it did when we watched it last week.
RIP Bendog. What a great boy. He will be missed by all of us.
Finally another Legacy video! Not what I was expecting as far as the topic goes, but a welcome surprise regardless
Same, Hunters got dirty with the legacy videos, but at least is something
@@williamcorteslugo5393I don’t think so
Deadmines is a great choice. So much story that built up to it over 2+ zones. For me, that story really hit home in BRD, where we discover the betrayal of Lady Prestor. Really tied it all together in a perfect way.
Getting there was the worst from my experience getting killed so many times.
I’m so glad I switched to alliance for classic to experience the alliance Ony attunement and lady prestor
Deadmines is my favorite dungeon. So many fun memories there.
It's crazy too that the story line's middle was never finished. It has the begging which eludes to what's going on, you're on the trial of the corruption and even the kidnapping of Varian.. then it just stops in dustwallow, where Onyxias lair actually is. I know then theres so much else unfished in that area that might have had something to do.. maybe you were supposed to actually put the puzzle peices together as you finished it all. Heck Varian used to be under Alcatraz island and you could find him in vanilla up to a certain patch.
But in the end, the trial goes cold about in the early-mid game and only semi randomly comes back up right at the end.
There's a lot of weird disjunction in vanilla wow like that lots of unfished or weirdly put together stories.
The one phylactery thing in plague lands, the Scarlets and Fairbanks, the random engjne in badlands, shade of eranikus quest line randomy ending and the story being concluded in the scepter bearer quest line..
Heck! In the deadmines alone, you know there's a connection between Zanzil's zombie voodoo and the Defias? Ever wonder why there's undead in the one location? You remember the rogue quests in barrens and West Fall, that have you going to venture Co towers to find Zanzil's mixture? Yeah if you do a huge amount of completely disjointed quests, on spefici classes and factions across the world.. you find out the venture Co got Zanzil's mixture from stranglethorn, and sent it across the world to sell via those towers, hence how the Defias got a small amount. This is probably the best example of totally disjointed quest design, but in some ways isnt that cool as heck? Just a shame most of these were never finished at all.
Gosh, black riders remember them?
Blackrock Depths is by far the best dungeon in the history of MMO's, and that is big and sprawling. You can choose to either do a full quest run, maybe only do the pre-key part. Maybe you wanna do an arena run or maybe take shortcuts and lavajump straight to the end to farm the Emperor, and much more. Such a good dungeon.
For me it’s gotta be new and old Karazhan. Both gigantic in their own right, packed with lore, mystery, a feeling of adventure, and both sporting very unique and creative themes. Ulduar and Uldum are my runner ups for the same reasons
It's a dungeon that actually feels like an entire zone you have to traverse with 4 other ppl because of its dangers.
LBRS and BRD being in the same mountain, and UBRS being literally visible from within LBRS back in the day, really made it feel like a genuine bad-guy city that we'd invaded with it's own life and characters. Suramar more or less managed to capture a similar feeling in Legion but was outdoor content; but other than that they're really never come close to anything like it.
BRD is a huge part of why I played classic! Hoping to make it there in HC eventually
Its cool but it got annoying if you wanted to do the entire thing and you are forced to quit playing because of an unexpected event
18:50 That section with content creators telling their favourite dungeons is great - really nails it with the argument "Everyone wants something slightly different".
Great video, Preach!
My favourite dungeon is Court of Stars.
I love how every run can be different due to all the class and profession specific things in there. It's also beautiful to look at, not too long and has some clever events. The lore and story are also very cool.
It's perfect!
I really liked Ghimlyt Dark in FFXIV, it was the first dungeon that really broke the mould, up until then, fighting the Garleans hadnt really been depicted outside of the "End of an Era" cinematic, so to have a dungeon where we fought our way through the trenches of a death filled battlefield, with airships, paratroopers and anti aircraft guns shooting off in the distance, not just with our party, but alongside city leaders, Scions and other soldiers, it felt amazing
Always one of my favorites as well, though I think the final boss fight is a little weak compared to other contenders. The Twinning, Ktisis Hyperborea, Vanaspati, The Dead Ends and Amaurot are my favorites, but I don't think I could pick one.
The absolute best experience ever was doing the Lost City of Tovir before the nerfs. The haunting music in the background for hours. The hard-core mechanics actually worked very well for that dungeon out of all of them in cataclysm.
Your legacy videos are amazing, and this was no different. Much appreciation this was a very fun watch
LOVED THIS, Mike. (and team) thanks big bunches. I identified almost all of it, having myself played most of it. Great content brother, much love
Dude this video is awesome. Love the format, love the production value, love the cheeky acting! Great video 😊 thank you!
My fav one is probably the twinning from FF14 the music is great but the highlight are the datalogs that you find through out the dungeon once you read them all you put 2 and 2 together and the final boss shows up and its not the Shadowbringers boss music, because of the thing you found out by reading the datalogs i loved that. and from WOW its probably the arcway, its a classic dungeon setting the "underground sewer" but with a twist, it had the withered that were there for the magic, the legion doing their shady work corroborating with the nightborn and other sewer denizens that were the result of all the magical waste.
Guild Wars 1 man. Every story mission was basically a dungeon. And then.... they added massive multi level dungeons years later. Such and incredible game.
Dude, I've been watching your content since early MOP and this is an incredibly well done and well written video. It's crazy to see how far you've come as a content creator. Kudos to you and everything you've been able to accomplish covering video games in general. It's good to see good people doing good things. Best to you, your family, and your entire team.
I miss dungeons being bigger than even some game continents. I remember Aion 1.0's dungeons which culminated in Draupnir Caverns were a multi-hour affair and something you can get lost in with massive vertical heights and a free-form way to traverse to the final boss in an epic arena. It really felt like a long D&D session.
There is some dungeons like this and D&D online. Explore a six-story castle, then sneak back in and explode again to see what's changed.
Duuudde aion vanilla and assault on baluria dungeons were crazy good!
I thought I would never see another one of your legacy videos, how nice! Great job as always Preach!
Great video! I agree with wanting that sense of exploration and excited tension in dungeons. Fantastic acting and commitment as well xD
One of my fondest WoW memories is doing a full run of Blackrock Depths when I was leveling a Heal Paladin during Mists. 5.1 it was, I believe. We did EVERY boss. Even the optional one we needed the Dark Iron Runes or whatever they were called for. The boss that you can only fight if everybody loots everything in that general area and doesn't leave. And to cap it off, we did the final boss *severely* *under* *level* where the tank would regularly take one of those extra heavy hits because they were four levels lower. I think the boss was level 58, the tank was 54 and I was 52. It was exhilarating, and we pulled through without a single person biting the dust. Just remembering makes me wish for a similar experience in other games. However. It also took a long, long time. To this day I am surprised that a group of completely random players stuck through until the end. Those moments are oh so very rare. No matter the time period. Which is why I don't want these massive dungeons to be a mandatory part of any game. But to have the option to just continue after the current portion is done would ideal. But I don't think current MMO design allows for this sort of dungeon to exist again. It would have to be the central "dungeon" on release and you'd return to it every time. Which could make for interesting design on every level, truth be told. I just don't think it will ever happen.
Black Rook hold is my favorite, climbing a tower with a lot of enemies, interesting bosses and even some fun gimmick stuff like dodge the rocks, also it might be that i did that place like 500+ times every patch in legion for a titanforged relic and leggo chances lol, still love that place
I think there is a fairly good argument for all of the dungeons in Legion, at least before I took a break around Nighthold's release.
Dude, this video was awesome, just so fun to listen to, really hope this does well and more content like this comes out. Also deadmines, back in 2006 that was my first dungeon I went into, I had 0 clue what I was doing, we spent 2-3 hours in there and omg, as a nerd who had that time it was amazing.
I love the legacy series, very happy another one finally showed up!
Sick video ! Really nice pacing and delivery.
great vid! love the format
I would like both some longer dungeons and some shorter faster ones as long as the players get to choose which dungeons to do.
Agreed. Not all dungeons have to fullfill all functionalities - small short dungeons for M+ racing, massive epic dungeons for storytelling.
Looking fantastic Mike, keep it up!
Love it preach team. This was a fun watch.
Loved the video, good job!
fuckin loved that part with the people voicing their fav dungeons. Everyone was SOOOOO varied in responses. Great video preach, so happy to support you here and twitch man. Your community rocks!
That was really enjoyable! Can't wait for the next one!
My favorite dungeon experience was Scarlet Monastery. It’s not the best but the feeling I got as a kid of finding this random place on a hill after powerful mobs and then forming a party going in and keep seeing how the place opens up to courtyard thinking how much farther can I go was just magical. I feel zones that could be solo or with 2 people and curated could be super fun to see. Like in a jrpg where you stumble upon a cave and just go explore but has specific assets to that place.
I saw the title on my phones notifications and I LOST IT! I recently binged all the other legacies and have been wishing they'd come back. Big hype Preach and Team! ❤
Love the legacy videos (and the outakes are great!) For the dungeons, you make the point a few times that many really enjoy the largescale exploration the first time, but no one wants to farm that. I think there needs to be a difference in farmable content and story content, and having multiple versions of the same dungeon accomplish that.
It's the age-old make it boring immediately because it'll become boring eventually spiel. Hard disagree. Having different kinds sounds like a good compromise, yeah.
This video is tremendous bro, good job team
been meaning to watch this since it came out, was hype to see a Legacy video in my inbox :)
Great stuff! Looking forward to the Legacy series on all the FF games!
Super entertaining vid Mike and team!
Brilliant legacy vid, love it :)
Loved this video preach!
This was awesome Mike!
Finally. After 84 years of waiting. I love this series, and this needs to come back Preach! It's how I found your channel was through your Warrior Legacy video
Great video, loved evry secound of it :D
Preacher! Great stuff once again!
really loved this preach, like a culmination of project MMO
Great to see a classic Preach legacy video again.
i binged all these videos a couple months ago and hoped you would make more!
Great vid, interesting facts and ideas, but my god that desk was hanging on for dear life in that hilarious skit
The only thing that could make me smile more than a new legacy video from Preach is when that unmistakable music comes in at 21:50...I swear whenever you heard that music play, you know you were about to watch something golden. Never stop Mike!
What's that song ?
Very interesting video, i been thinking about these kind of things a lot.
Great video, amazing work from Team PG
I think it's fascinating the way dungeon design evolves alongside it's audience. Like playing classic, I heard for years how much people liked the huge sprawling dungeons, yet the classic playerbase found ways to effectively speed run them so they behaved like how more modern blizz dungeon design does. It really shows dungeons went the way they did for a reason.
Good stuff. Well done!
Loved this!
Woo! The return of the Legacy video!
excellent video preach!!!!
Love these videos and may have an interesting idea for the next legacy video. Legacy of wow expansions and how each shaped the next
Excellent vid!
This was amazing! Loved the gags, the music, and the in depth dive.
As someone who's played quite a few mmos over the years- I first off agree about deadmines... and I think part of it also ties in with the limits. Everyone is low level and still learning and it really is a great entrypoint. I think my favorite part of the older school design was that exploration and that tangible danger. I certainly miss it.
I'm a long time XIV player and recently have been tackling a variant dungeon blind with some friends, while drinking. It's been some of the most fun I've had in a while. I really hope they iterate on it in dawntrail- but your video also reminded me of the different paths in GW2 dungeons and I kind of want to convince some friends to go revisit/give it a try.
Great idea for a legacy video!
Genuinely the best MMO content out there
Real banger videos my dudes
ive waited so loong for you
Legacy!!!!!!!!! It's been years my man. But I've been patiently waiting.😮
There are two moments in classic wow that left me awestruck. One of them was seeing the boat for the first time in deadmines. The scenery shift from that tiny little cave into the giant room. It reminded me of bowser’s submarine in Mario 64. I remember every detail of that moment so vividly.
The second was seeing the waterfall in Maraudon for similar reasons. You’re going through a gross pestilent cave and it opens up to a vibrant lush area like the waterfall.
nice to see preach do a tour of his new studio in the beginning was wondering how that was going
omg the return..lets goo im so happy
It’s been a long time since the last legacy video, well done. My favorite dungeon btw has to be shadow labyrinth
Well done, Legacy of MMO Dungeons is a great one!
Great video!
Another banger of a vid. Well done!
BRD has a special little place for me, but I think the ideal setup to me is having mega dungeons that are one continuous zone that you can also split up into 2 or 3 parts (DM, etc). That way you can target certain sections and not have to do the whole thing every time.
Excellent point. They are also "world buildy" on a more epic, satisfying scale in that format.
My favourite is Castle Zvahl from FFXI. It's the atmosphere and the time you go in the Main Scenario originally was super freaking awesome and the fact it was super dangerous to enter in just made it really cool to get through at the end and going through the ending that it had which kinda made me swell up slightly.
Man that was great, I hope it gets all the attention it deserves!
I agree. It's insane how good this video actually is from a creative standpoint.
I really like how you lay out the various design goals a dungeon needs to fulfill, and that is something that every developer has to not only solve, but also stick their guns to.
BRD makes great memories. But nobody's running BRD every day or even every week - that's the whole reason why it feels special. I struggle to recall many WoW dungeons without looking them up because I have done them so many times they really just blur out and fade. If you show me a list, I'll remember them, yeah - but otherwise it's just another day in the office.
Yay! Legacy video!
Hype, another legacy video
Holy wow a legacy video!!
very good start
Great video Preach! Deadmines is also my all time favorite dungeon :)
Fantastic video.
Such a fun video! And I agree. Especially after playing classic again on Hardcore. Deadmines is such a masterpiece.
Darkness Falls in Dark Age of Camelot sticks out to me at spontaneous thought. It was available in different wings for different levels from like level 15-20 all the way to max level, with a raid component tacked on toward the deepest levels, without being instanced content. Also, only available to ENTER for one faction (of three, for those who are unfimilar with DAoC) at a time, bound by keeps taken in the Realm vs Realm PVP system. So people could of course have their sneaky stealther character logged in in there and grief the faction that had their portal open, or when the switch happened a some PvP groups could enter and wipe out the opposition faction players. Just so many of the MMO systems tacked on to one dungeon.
Agree, everyone here talked about wow or ff, but darkness falls to me is the greatest dungeon ive ever been in. It just had everything and for almost every level range.
@@candykit5382 In a way I guess it's almost disingenuous, just because it is so different. But I'd like to see a lot of more that was at play in DF be applied in dungeons in general, not as a new standard, but as an alternative dungeon among the rest - such as it was in DAoC.
I always go back to DAoC when thinking about dungeons, those non-instanced grindfests that were just so much fun. Nisse's Lair, Varulvhamn, Spindelhalla, and DF when it was available (and something to go out and fight for when it wasn't). Even the Labyrinth had its appeal even though the game was in rough shape at that point.
But yeah, DF. AJing Albs at Legion never got old.
Don't often watch anymore, nice to see a good oldschool video, was really nice.
great video Mike! :)
Great Vid
Absolutely love the storytelling
Love the video preach!! i think my favourite dungeon has to be either Iron docks or the Grim batol
great video!
Mike, this video is soooooooo fun!!!!! Amazing you are!!!
great video, my personal favourite is court of stars
great one
ITS BACK, more legacy videos!
Shaking it for money, go Mike go!
Oh, and that dungeon thing. A great review of the modern history and primary conflict around dungeon design. Well done.
Great vid
Was not expecting the cavalcade of my favorite MMO creators.
Great video! Maybe they could have a Scenario-style mode you'd have to complete once per account to unlock a dungeon and this mode includes the story, RP and nice fixed rewards to boost your character's strength.
Then, once unlocked, it's available in a LFD tool in s shorter format.
More of these plz.
So great!
My sincere condolences to the desk and also congratulations for withstanding such a force of nature without even breaking a sweat.