British guitarist analyses Van Halen having technical difficulties live!
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2018
- Tonight I'm looking at Van Halen put in an impossible situation! Backing track out of key and quite possibly a bad onstage mix. Now this really is a nightmare!
Original video -
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Is it just me or does Phil seem like the nicest guy on the planet? Most guitar players speak like they are God's gift to music. Phil is always classy and pleasant.
😅
Not to take anything away from him; he does seem nice enough, but it is also smart marketing to post a lot of videos about people's heroes, and say complimentary things about them. It's a great way to attract a wider audience of fans from all the bands and players you review.
Imagine how much slower his channel would grow (if at all-it might shrink instead) if people came to check out his review of their favorite band or player, only to discover him ripping them. Nice guys finish first when it comes to attracting an audience that likes and follows them.
Also, I take issue with the general smear of guitar players; saying most of them "speak like they are God's gift to music" is ridiculous, insulting, and false. A few have massive and legendary egos and repellent personalities; most do not. Some of the greatest players are ridiculously humble.
Ummm, soooo, you do realize successful guitarists are big for a reason. They are very good at whatever THING they do. So there's not going to be much to criticize. This isn't American Idol for Guitarists. It could easily be called "An Appreciation". But yeah, you're no dummy, you've figured out how the system is rigged. No one's gonna pull shit on ol' Greg Vinson.
Oh I'd have to say that is why I keep coming back to Fil's reviews
And he's absolutely adorable!!!
What’s cool is that you never personally attack anyone having a bad session-you stick to the technical aspects. Stay classy Mr. Fil!
Yeah this is definitely a technical issue, Eddie was hung out to dry by someone!
Wrong!!!!! EVH does not have the designated Jump tuned guitar and he refuses to go over to the techs station to get it. EVH is playing an open E flat tuned guitar. Google Lonnie Totmans explanation for the Greensboro NC Jump debacle. There is nothing preventing EVH from going to get the guitar that is tuned for Jump. EVH screwed himself on this one
If it was simply a technical issue stop and fix it. I'm sure the crowd would have understood the situation and preferred a decent performance rather than this mess. I went to The Who recently and they had two 'issues' arise during the course of the night. They stopped and dealt with them while keeping the crowd upbeat and involved, that's what professionals do. If Van Halen was hung out to dry by anyone, it was himself. This whole performance was atrocious.
...yes Phils a class act ....I think this was Eds techs fault ...no boggy...keeps things interesting"
@@wingsofpegasus ...yes I'm thinking that was a guitar tech issue ....not Ed
I believe Sammy Hagar was operating the mixing desk that night. 😎
😂
LOL
but seriously though, these mega-super-big-awesome-rich-bands, have always state of the art stage sound equipment and not to mention the technicians behind all that, and with that being sad, how is it possible that Eddie couldn't hear himself on stage? I mean c'mon, that doesn't make any sense if you ask me, and i understand he doesn't use ear plugs he prefers old school stage monitors but he should nonetheless be able to hear himself right?? Right??? Right???
After a couple of bottles of Cabo Wabo too!
Omar Alvarado hahahahaha. Good one!
The sad thing is that this is now my favorite version of Jump. Reminds me of the horn in a car when a person is in an auto accident when the person is left unconscious and the battery starts dying because the horn has been smashed down for 10 minutes but somehow it just keeps going. The sound of total distress.
😅
@Ian - LOL. That much distress usually smells bad, also. :-)
Sick
Brilliant description.
I know this is now 2 years old but is there a video of the car horn thing? Sounds good
they sound like a depressed cow mating with a cat in heat with the tornado sirens going off.
😂
Outstanding description. LMAO
Maxfield Sohn, man I will go to bed tonight laughing out of the blue during the whole night and my wife will think that I am completely crazy and retarded...(writing and still laughing).
Huh?
RDE Lutherie , I love the addition of these sounds too. This cracked me up!
I wasn't there, but I want a refund. Lol
Lol 👍
Listen my friend all these aging bands were great but if i go to any of these concerts im not expecting to be entering a time machine
I wish Wolfgang or someone would chime in and give the whole story on this and the aftermath so we would not have to speculate. RIP EVH
Wasn't it sampled original 44KHz but somehow changed to 48KHz, but DLR really pulled out all the stops here and showed how professional he did by keeping the song going.
Great analysis. I do belive that that backing track was in D and not C as the original. I would dare to say that the backtrack is the one that was used for Sammy. Sammy had Jump set at D for his higher register. I've played to the live Sammy Jump and its in D. The Original is in C as you said. Great video!
Ahhh that's the best explanation so far I think!
I believe that's correct.....first few notes I was thinking this is Sammy's track
Used this vid as an example at uni this week.
Backing track of 44.1kHz sample rate loaded to play at 48kHz.. resulting in faster playback and pitch shift of ONE AND A HALF semitones.. meaning it was completely impossible for musicians on stage to adapt as it's completely detuned from any notes on the guitar.
@@eddierussell5014 good point on your analysis, keyboards are never or usually never tuned in weird tunings? and or in quarter step intervals, especially analog(old pianos) i suppose with digital you can tune to odd tunings? but would be very rare to do so. Keyboards are tuned to normal c, but depending on the key, etc can go up or down half step or whole step, but not in quarters or fractions. Was Eddie clean then? i know he had a problem with alcohol for years, maybe he was clean by then??
That makes a poor performance into something hilarious. Karma?
Here's my 2 cents: the band and synth are in the intended key of C#. Eddie simply had the wrong guitar that was in standard tuning instead of a half step down, and for whatever reason he didn't bother to quickly grab a correctly tuned guitar. I've looked at several live performances of this song over the years on various tours, and the only time I found them playing the song live in the original key of C was the 1984 tour when Eddie actually PLAYED the keyboards live on this song, which btw meant he couldn't play the guitar solo (he played a lame keyboard solo instead.) I cannot find video of the song from the 86-87 5150 tour, but I've heard they played it in C then as well - which would make sense because Eddie was still playing the synth live on that tour. After that tour, Eddie never played synth on that particular song again - presumably relying on a backing track for the synth. For some reason when performing it that way, they moved the key up a whole step to D which I believe was on the F.U.C.K. tour, then they settled on the long time key of C# ever since then ... and to get super specific: the guitar and bass still play it in the key of D, they're just tuned down a half-step, so we're hearing it in C#. So yeah therefore I think he just had the wrong guitar since some songs they do in standard tuning and others a half step down ... On a somewhat unrelated note: some other things I learned while looking into this: as already stated, the original song is in C, with the exception of the guitar solo which is in Bb minor, a less common key to solo in on the guitar, so apparently Eddie tuned his guitar UP a half step in the studio when recording the guitar solo, I assume so that he could play in the more common guitar-friendly key of A minor. (This is how he's fretting the notes in the official music video when miming to the playback - he's fretting C and G chords throughout the verses and choruses, and fretting notes mainly in A minor for the solo - but we're hearing them as Bb minor notes in that section, which would confirm the tuning up a half step for the solo in the studio.) Anyways, after changing the key to D live and deciding to play the guitar part instead of the synth part, he would obviously have to relearn the solo in C minor to accommodate the new key of the song. Did I confuse everybody yet? lol
Yeah he'd have to ad lib the solo, so wouldn't match the original but it would have been possible!
J K Dude you are dead on, IMO ! Nice work !! Only thing you forgot is B flat Minor not B flat for original solo, lol !!
J K--you are correct. I have argued with many people who claim to have good ears and who claim to know about Pro-tools about this 2007 tour VH debacle, and very few people who "analyze" this 2007 Greensboro Jump debacle get it right and you are one of them. You then took it a whole step further as well by relating/explaining what the different tunings mean in terms of "key" that they are playing in (by the pitch and chords that are heard) vs what key in terms of fret positions and chord shapes that seen/are being used.
If you watch the next two or three live performances of Jump from the 2007 tour you will see that EVH uses his old Frankenstrat (not Kramer) to play on Jump for the rest of the 2007 tour and not his Wolfgang. You can also take two other performances of Jump from around this period and sync them up with this 2007 Greensboro NC Jump debacle and the proof is in the pudding. All three performances will have the keys, vocals & bass playing at the same speed and same pitch. The other two jump performances will have the guitar parts paying the same pitch. However, the Greensboro 2007 Jump debacle guitar parts are out of tune with all three keyboard parts from the 3 live performances of Jump.
The real question then becomes why didn't Ed go and get the Jump designated/tuned guitar and then resume playing the song .
Former EVH guitar tech Lonnie Totman explained this debacle in detail. He was not EVH's tech at the time of this debacle but he knows what went wrong and he blames EVH.
Thanks John C - although I did specify more than once the original solo was Bb minor.
J K ur correct ! Sorry dude I was half asleep without my glasses on !
Gotta give props to DLR. People go on about his live performances, but the dude transposed his pitch on the spot and sounded damn good doing it.
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Stev0theBohunk
DLR was great...........when he was sober.
At first I thought he'd sabotaged the backing track to suit his own range. I couldn't believe how close to pitch he was.
He actually sounded ok. That stuff with the stick was cool as well.
@@priestfan81 I thought so, too. Did you see the gig where he cut his nose with that stick? Terrible. I do like Dave, despite his sometimes annoying ways. He's a character 👍
Anyone who has played live knows that sh*t happens. I remember starting a tune a whole step down from the rehearsal key and the bass player caught it early and transposed on the fly. The vocalist jumped in and the intoxicated audience was none the wiser.
Playing live in front of an audience is like running naked across a parking lot....you just don't stop ( - :
I agree, live is trial by fire, broke strings, strings going out of tune, exploding amps, dud leads, wind, rain, cold, heat, sweat in your eyes till you can't see, I love it lol.
Described perfectly
This is well documented. The playback was at 48K and not 44.1K - so was in a different key, but not capable of being rectified by playing a fret or two higher.
Spot on! The funny thing is that the "1984" track before it (taken directly from the album) played at the correct sample rate
@@designstudio8013 not if it was more or less than full semitones off. They'd have to retune they're instruments to be able to hit the notes at all.
That seems like a plausible explanation but he could've at least gotten closer. 48,000 / 44,100 is 1.088, so all the frequencies on the backing track were multiplied by 1.088. Whereas Eddie transposing up one semitone would multiply his frequencies by 1.059 -- not a match, but close enough that maybe some portion of the audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Here I think probably everybody could tell.
If you're referring to sample rate, which 44.1K and 48K refer to, that would have nothing to do with it. Sample rate simply refers to how many times the sound is sampled per second. You can play a 44.1K sound recording at an 88.2K sample rate, and the pitch will be exactly the same.
@@Durwood71 Nope.You're confusing recording and playing. Playing a 44.1 Khz recoding with 48 Khz results in a higher pitch. If you want to squeeze 48000 samples into 1 second, the machine has to run a bit faster than with 44100 samples. Slighty higher speed equals slightly higher pitch (and slightly faster tempo). The pitch difference is exactly:
146.70690006119764 cents which is roughly 1,5 semitone
If you wanna do the math yourself:
www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-centsratio.htm
I am pretty sure, the sample rate differences are the culprit here - The synth track of "Jump" is straight from the original track, so changing guitars wont help. I guess the sound engineer/tape operator fucked up.
Believe me i've had this situation in studios many times - that's why every sound editing program offers sample rate conversion.
VH can afford a professional keyboard player to play these simple keyboard tracks live offstage. Why depend on recorded tracks.
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Maybe there WAS a live synth player offstage, and somehow the synth accidentally got transposed sharper? Most synths do have some sort of transpose feature. If so, I feel sorry for that synth player. It was probably their last gig. :)
The synth part might also be played by a MIDI sequencer, and the synth's controls might have accidentally gotten transposed sharper. Even if you feed the synth the correct MIDI notes from the sequencer, it will still play in the wrong key in that case.
That's a definite possibility. My band has had that happen on songs where our keyboard player has learned a song in one key and our singer asks us to play it up or down whatever semitones to suit her range better, and he'll just transpose that patch on his rig, but something might go wrong and voila, you're a whole step off and it's a trainwreck because your OTHER keyboard is in the intended key.
That's why my band just played everything in C major so we had little to worry about. Just default to factory settings.
E R and others....... I don't know what year tour this is exactly but see my comment for information from the source. You're basically correct, and I give the details and some of the back story as to who it is if it was from a few years ago.
Saw the Jimmy page outrider tour in Atlanta. His pedal board crapped out he kicked it off the stage with rage. Picked up a acoustic guitar and played while his tec scammered to get the pedal board off the laps of the folks in the first row and get it in order.
Ouch!
I bet that fixed the loose cable... LOL.
Fil! Really appreciate your positiveness when taking things apart and examining them! Super job and "Rock!"
My church band has a software that plays all the tracks on a song. We do this because we're all unpaid, volunteer amateurs and our lineup changes from week to week. So, if the bass player can't play on a Sunday, we just add the bass track. Next week, if the bass player shows up but the keyboard player can't play, we drop the bass track and add keys. Our singers are always changing. So, if one singer can't sing within a certain register, we just change the key on the backing track and the rest of us transpose. It's literally as simple as a click of a mouse. I wasn't there and I don't know what Van Halen is using for their backing tracks, but our amateur church band has gone all kattywhompus because someone set the backing track to the wrong key. Believe me, it happens with the amateurs, it happens with the pros. We all have those Spinal Tap moments.
Love watching you watch the videos you're reviewing. It's obvious that you are a true musician and your reserved Britishness is apparent. Thank you for sharing your professional opinions.
Absolutely one of the most interesting posts you;ve done Fil, and I love them all. But this was really interesting. Wow, wow, wow. Thanks for posting this one.
No problem!
David Lee Roth finished the song. Good lesson there, in the case of whether to stop or continue. We’ve seen artists get upset and temperamental. This is an excellent example of following through even if it doesn’t match up tonally and keeping the self composure. Nice to watch this review!
I like the way you explain things. Cool finding the channel!
Thanks!
Well......my brother Alan Fitzgerald (from Night Ranger) was the Keyboard player & tech for 24 yrs and he could easily play all the parts live, but for some reason they wanted him to run Pro Tools as they wanted the back up vocals tracks to complement their live singing too. They have a backup system for emergencies as well. I'll call him and ask him about this gig and see if he remembers this.
He was fired from VH the night of the Billboards award show apparently because of a technical problem on Jump and he didn't have time to set up the backup system because there's never enough time for these awards shows. He said David was in his face for 10 min. backstage and he never liked Alan because he played with Sammy for years...and you know how he hates Sammy! It was to be my brothers last tour, because he was going to retire. David told Eddie & Alex that it was either him or me! So they felt bad for Alan, but they needed to do the tour. Alan lost $80k which he was counting on for his retirement!! What an asshole thing to do!! I told my brother back when he was playing with Bruce Springsteen, to keep that gig because Eddie was not to be trusted because when Night Ranger got back together and VH was not scheduled to do anything for awhile.....but Eddie called him and told him to be in L.A. the next day at 8:30am for rehearsals, because Alex just bought a new house and was broke, so they need to tour NOW! Alan was recording his Keyboard tracks and told Eddie to give him 3 or 4 more days but Eddie said no can't do that! He asked him if I could come because I was going to take his place for the future. Eddie said nope! Alan could have been in the E Street Band because the B-3 player had cancer and wasn't going to be able to tour. Bruce was so good to Alan for 3 yrs.
He said Eddie called him to tell him he needed him for the tour with David....so he said yes. Bruce called him the next day and told him he had the job in the E Street Band, but he said no because he just committed to VH! I told him he was stupid for that and he said Eddie had been his friend for along time and when he gives his word on something that's it. Well I didn't mean to go into so much detail but David lee Roth sucks as a singer and a person and I don't have any respect for Eddie either after not letting me come and do the job when Night Ranger got back together!! So fuck VH!!!
Thanks for the background info! Yeah it seems Eddie and David weren't the easiest pair to deal with from what I've heard.
If they are using midi ....then fluctuations can happen to the tuning. It could be they are tuned 1/2 step down and the synths somehow weren't transposed down. That's what it sounds like to me.
@Freak Nasty Funny how the claimers always seem to be doing the same thing they say others are doing isn't it?
It’s more logical that the guitars were half step down and the track was standard tuning 440
Well Eddie always played on Eb, but it would be absurd to think they hadn't made the midi tracks in tune.Maybe they had an on opening whatever daw was running the midi it messed up.
Thanks, Phil! I hadn't seen this until now. Again, thanks for your covering this!
Just thinking out loud here...but, couldn't the onstage sound quality be compromised by the doppler effect of of David Lee Roth's twirling?
Haha yeah possibly! 😅
Because Mike Anthony is not playing.
I would enjoy Fil discussing the way different bands use different stage setups. It would be of interest to see/discuss something like "well the band did not like this arrangement but the show must go on"..
I was at this 1975(6)? Anaheim Stadium concert when the audio went out for Rod Stewart. The entire article is in Rolling Stone, by Annie Leibovitz.
By sundown the 55,000 people packed into the Los Angeles Angels’ Anaheim Stadium for this “sunshine festival” have stolidly endured six hours of a rather warm day, karmically dubious hot dogs and runny Cokes. According to opener Mick Fleetwood, the erratic sound system at the stadium began to function properly only at the end of his group’s set and was capable, during Loggins and Messina’s marathon performance, of creating the illusion in a listener of being simultaneously in two separate moments. Yet few leave the stadium. The thousands wait, restless but secure in the knowledge that sooner or later they will be treated to Rod Stewart and the Faces.
As I remember,this is when I really started liking Loggins and Messina. Imagine Mick Fleetwood, Loggins and Messina, and Rod Stewart on the same bill. Oh those were the days.
Hey I’ve really enjoyed your videos recently because they’ve offered some amazing insight. I scrolled down to the comments and noticed that you had read basically every single one. The fact that you take so much care in connecting with so many people is really inspiring. Love your videos, they really are something to always look forward to. Subscribing in T minus right now
Thanks!
Love your critiques! A blend of technical, artistic skill and raw talent, without the typical blasting negatives. Appreciate!
Hooray! You analyzed my video suggestion, Fil! I’m sure I wasn’t the only one to recommend it but I was happy to see you take a look, nonetheless. 😉
BTW, I just so happen to be watching a pretty good Beatles tribute band at the moment. Sadly, their Paul’s not a lefty. Always a bit of a shame.
No problem! Yeah left handed Paul impersonators must be rare!
wingsofpegasus - Yeah. That’s job security! Ha.
Wings of Pegasus I’ve seen quite a few leftie Macca bassists, but they’re right handed, playing left handed. What always gives them away is when they play ‘Yesterday’ right handed.
Thanks for not playing to much of that video , it was hurting My ears.
It's a tough listen for sure!
Dreadful AND painful!
Love your Videos - keep it up!
Finally someone who understand musicians, we can find arguments in this channel, you really rock man.
You explained it very well, it's cool to learn about !
Thanks!
Probably the only show where David Lee Roth outperformed Eddie Van Halen.
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I wouldn't waste my time even if the tickets were free. bring back Sammy and Michael Anthony.
What a statement!!!!🤩
@@edbigtruck nope Roth is here
Personally, i thought dave was awful though.
I really enjoy your analysis, keep up the good work !
Thanks!
Lol, thanks for not playing this all the way through. I came across a CZcams video of this performance yesterday and already experienced it. Oddly enough, when I looked at my feed today, I saw your video. I wanted to know what happened so I'm thinking, let's see if Fil can sort it out. Great job as always.
Me too. I hadn’t heard Jump in years and as soon as I heard the first keyboard chord play I thought it sounded a bit higher than I remembered. But then when Eddie started playing , it sounded way way way off. Dave did great though.
“Jump” quickly became one of my least favorite songs ever. Was different first few hundred times. But after that just wouldn’t go away.
It’s depressing to see Van Halen looking like this. Just looks wrong.
On the subject of backing tracks. I remember a documentary on The Who. One roadie had the job of running the tape. Every night he just feared the time would finally come when it would break. Never did.
Yeah it's risky!
I had an engineer friend tell me that he thought it was a computer playback error and that seems to be the agreed reason. Their track must've had a sample rate of 44.1 kHz, but whatever DAW was playing back the synth track was set to playback at 48 kHz, which of course is higher quality, but would cause a track in 44.1 to play about a semitone and a half higher. I don't know the whole story, but I'll bet someone on their sound crew lost their job that night.
Yeah I thought this, but then the track would be playing faster at a sample rate of 48 which would be noticeable. I don't know why they didn't just use a backing track wav or mp3 to be safe! 😅
wingsofpegasus Or just pay somebody to sit backstage and play the damn part live. Black Sabbath had off-stage keyboard players for most of their career.
I agree about using live musicians, used to be acts would get booed off the stage for what now is commonplace, sometimes it ruined careers. I do have to say that using off stage musicians is just as bad though, If you need another musician , fine but be honest about it, put them on the stage, otherwise its just a dishonest and intentionally deceptive ego trip. The musician and the audience both deserve it.
Hi Phil, you're spot on with your analysis and I'll deeply respect your views
this is awesome thanks, it reminds me of times i use to cover it and forget i was tuned to e flat, good times :)
I’ve had gigs where I have literally had to just play my parts because I couldn’t hear anybody but me. A lot of people don’t understand that on-stage sound is completely different from front of house. It can sound amazing out front and terrible on stage or vice versa. That’s the ironic part about being a musician… you strive for the best tone possible for your instrument and your band and ultimately you have little to no control as to what actually comes out. Not only that but you don’t even get to hear it! It’s like creating a painting that you never get to see the finished product of. So strange.
I played a very large outdoor show in the spring - not only was it cold, but the wind was howling. I was having such a hard time playing because my hands were frozen and wouldn't move, and then when the wind would blow it took all the sound with it! All of a sudden there'd be a strong wind, and I'd literally be standing there with no sound coming out of the monitors or the amps! I couldn't even hear the drums much at all during those moments...
I wonder if Axl Rose had been their front man that night he wouldn’t have shut the song down and started over (along with dropping a bunch of F-bombs about the sound crew to the audience)? Just watched a recent GNR concert video where he did that because the pyrotechnics were messing up during a song. Not a huge fan of Axl’s usual antics, but nothing wrong with a re-set. 👍🏻🎸
Yeah sometimes it is best to stop and restart!
I was there in the balcony on Ed's side of the stage. His guitar was tuned wrong. However, he totally flipped out and threw the monitor at the soundboard. It was great! :D
Haha nice!
Saw an interview with the guitar tech who said because Ed had jammed his guitar neck into the stage several times during his solo it was out and Ed rough adjusted it and Wolfgang adjusted to Ed. Ed waved off a guitar change before Jump and was so loud he couldn't hear the keyboard track. Following this Ed started always accepting the guitar change before Jump.
Jimi Hendrix at the Atlanta festival started playing All Along the Watchtower off key, and Billy Cox signalled to him, and Hendrix corrected it quickly. Jimi's guitar was tuned a step down, so he compensated over the mishap.
Eddie should have been able to do the same thing. So why didn't he?
Who knows....
Hendrix tuned half a step down, not a step. Eb suited his voice better when he started singing on records.
@@seanfegan8161 thanks for the correction 👍
Good grief! Sounds like delirium! Why didn’t he stop? The crowd would have understood. Thanks Fil. The technology is fascinating. Be blest☦️👩🏻🦳🐾🐾
Thanks for the knowledge Fil!
No problem!
Fair and generous assessment, Fil, thanks.
What I think is strange is that Eddie didn`t just go up a semi tone on the guitar when he heard it. But then Wolf would have to do it also. You can tell he heard it right away. Or that one of the stage crew didn`t hurry up and tune a guitar up a semi tone and hand it to Eddie. Or the sound engineer didn`t just mute the keyboard.
i have a very good feeling (let's call it experience...) that they were using a midi sequencing program to play out the notes on the synth (seeing as eddie can only play one instrument at a time), and someone nudged the pitch tuning slider on the synth itself, or it just wasn't checked and reset between songs by the synth tech prior to running....i guarantee, by the attitude for perfection displayed by the van halen brothers, there is an ex-roadie doing night school courses to finish his high school.
Yep!
Yes, I've seen other more recent live performances of 'Jump!', for example on the 'Ellen' show, and it appears the song's key is actually *meant* to be higher than in the original recording! It just doesn't sound right to my ears, even with all instruments being in tune; It's a whole different atmosphere.
Professionals know how to save the situation. Please do more Van Halen critiques and Quo too.
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Best wishes to Eddie Van. Rumors of him having throat cancer. And being very ill. Maybe even close. I certainly hope that all it is are rumors. Best wishes once again to him and his family
Wishing him well also. King Edward ❤️❤️
RIP Eddie
hi Fil. it appears a prerecorded synthesizer track played back at 48K instead of the intended 44.1K. the whole track then plays back a little bit faster and at a slightly higher pitch. the difference in pitch is about 1.5 semitones sharp so there’s no frets he can choose to fix the problem. i'm sure a few of the technicians were hiding from EVH when the show was over. i think it would have been a more major disaster if they had stopped and tried to fix it while the song had already started. peace man
48k vs 44.1 is a sampling rate. If it were as you say, the keyboard would be playing faster rather than a different key. Wither way it was brutal.
Yeah this is a tough one! I think the track would be noticeably faster at the higher sample rate. I think it might have been someone standardizing the originally half step detuning for some reason.
if it is the sample rate then it is only 8.84% increase so although playing quicker to produce a higher pitch, the speed difference wouldn't be that noticeable in relation to the length of the song - approximately 20 seconds quicker
This was my first thought. As a recovering recording and sound engineer, I have seen this happen in the studio.
You can't just transpose it up a half step etc, as it is in between. Sound like Ed is hitting a note and holding it trying see where the tuning is.
Excellent review and analysis of this performance
Thanks, i enjoyed that, you nailed it with the lack of monitor mix etc..cheers..
Thanks!
At least Alex was in tune. lol
😂
Why'd they use a backing track? That's Millie Vanillie stuff.
How dare you sir. I thought Millie Vanillie were a top class act, thank you very much.
MV had the lead singing on track hence lip syncing . This was a synthesizer on the track.
Great job phill this is going in your playlist
Thanks Phil!! I play all acoustic and have the sound "out of tune" on stage, only to check my instrument to be perfectly in tune!
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He said he couldn't hear the bass. That's cause Wolfie was on bass and they always had him unplugged.
He never noticed.
Also Alex was sick so they had Rob Kardashian on drums.
Had no idea Brian May was an Aerosmith fan.
Thanks fil! Such a great tune, always liked the jump video as well on mtv. I feel that yes they use backing track rightfully so, its eddy playing either way. Accidents happen, no bodys perfect and with or without th ed mistakes, or dave forgetting words, its all part of the vh experience and always worth going to see or hear
Great analysis as always.
Michael Anthony used to play the keyboards live. I hear a weird buzz in the background. Eddie seems off too.
Michael never played keys as far as I know. My brother did it for 24 yrs.
Ed forgot to change his guitar. Most songs with Dave were 1/2 step down but Jump was recorded in standard tuning
I agree with this.
Wouldn't he have a stage hand who responsible for making sure he has the correct guitar for each set?
That sounds very likely. Great answer.
Certainly could be. BUT still, the recorded track was 1/2 step higher than the recorded version, so Eddie would've been a whole step off, not 1/2
Great dissection, Fil
Thanks!
that was actually really well explained and kind of interesting ,thanks.
Thanks!
OK lots going on here...Someone mentioned the backing track might have been tuned for Sammy's voice...I'm sure VH has played 'Jump" numerous times since then with Dave...right?.. I think Sammy would have stopped the song to say 'WTF"... And I think the band should be able to adjust to key by a half step...right? I've seen Billy Sheehan have a bass on stage that was tuned a half step down..he didn't change basses he just ADJUSTED to the key!
And what is up with Eddies guitar cable!! It's huge!!
And last but least DO NOT piss off roadies or sound crew...you can change that background track key very easily...
Yeah I can only assume Eddie couldn't hear his guitar because it should have been an easy fix!
Adjusting on the fly is no joke. It would be easier if it's a whole tone, but still very hard on guitar, imo. Guitar has too many guitar-centric things to it.
11:19 has to be a prank. No way digital changes unless it's mucked with by a human.
Great video Fil. Al always. ❤️🤘🏼
This song & candy by cameo were my great grandmothers favorite songs to play before she passed, she played the shit out of guitar, Idk why your reaction to this made me happy and all melancholy. Thanks a lot just for your spirit wings ✌️
THE SHOW MUST GO ON !....sid vicious 2/2/1979
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I would stop. Tell audianc3 we've got technical difficulties. Crack a few jokes to keep them engaged. And play the right backing track.
I agree. A band I was in once began a song and I knew right away that something was terribly wrong. I kept looking at my hand on the fretboard, thinking I'd somehow gotten mixed up. Then, if I'm remembering right - it was a while ago - I looked over at the lead guitarist and... His capo was missing. Lol. We stopped, apologized, and started over but by then we'd pretty much cleared the bar. OOOOOPS!!!
Might not be wrong in the middle of a set. In Van Halen’s case this was their encore. They typically closed with Jump. Once you get that momentum going on the show closer you sort of kill what you built up to.
@@bandit7498 Great point.
...btw ....really good to have someone like Phil that can break it down so eloquently with non judgement or condescension......
Thanks Mark!
I believe you said it, when you talked about the sound mix behind the scenes. Another big sound changer in a big venue is leaving doors open you have more sound travel and bounce. These venues are designed for optimum sound with the doors shut even with backstage doors open to a garage area will effect sound greatly and sometimes a minor malfunction with sound equipment. I could be wrong but it could be a combination of things like this outdoor stages have a back and sides partially to project the sound forward but when you open the back the sound changes. Phil keep up the great work you are always positive and that's the only way to be because in all situations there is always room for failure for any reason but it doesnt make them a bad band like you said
Odds are the track is being played back on protools. My guess is a tech raised the pitch in the box to make them look bad. They arent known for being the kindest to techs. Ive seen it happen before with bands and crew fighting. We've done it to opening acts with bad attitudes...change pitch on vocals with a harmonizer by a few cents so the singer sounds sharp out front. Dont make your crew mad.
Haha yeah that could have been it!
wingsofpegasus
Id bet $20.
Dave, Ed, and Al are all notorious a-holes.
Grant Mclellan
Im not sure he had keys in his monitors...
Rob DeGolier
Thats usually what you do as a final F U right before you jump ship to another tour.
The safe bet is, the keys are live midi not recorded bax, and the master tune on the sound source took an accidental tap.
Thing is, they always had a keyboardist back stage when Sammy was in the band and Eddie stopped playing them live. Alan Fitzgerald from Night Ranger was the guy. He was on this tour, too....but maybe he didn't play live and just started the track? I believe if memory serves (and I was there that night, it was Greensboro, NC) they also played I'll Wait and And The Cradle Will Rock, another couple of songs with keys, so they needed someone.
So here's my take on this: Roth has been known to tune this song up, live. I'm wondering if he told the keyboardist this is how he wanted to do it, but the word didn't get to Eddie's guitar tech.
I also saw them two nights before in Charlotte, and there was no problem. BTW, they were the first two shows of the tour.
Yeah I don't know why Eddie didn't just change his playing, he must have been unable to hear.
Phil. U are a true gentleman and an artist keep it all coming ROCK ON
They played the sound file @ 48KHz while it was recorded @44.1 it seems....
My guess is they are controlling the keyboard via MIDI from a laptop or a MIDI file player and one of the roadies hit the transpose button on the synth by mistake. If they were using an audio file it could not have gotten transposed without some kind of pitch shifting effect and it seems unlikely they'd have it hooked up to that.
It does go to prove what Fil said is right. the more "technology" you rely on at gigs, the more vulnerable you are to looking this stupid. It's best to keep it "old school" and actually play all your instruments.
Yeah I agree!
The studio version of Jump was recorded at A440 in C major. If you watch a few Jump keyboard covers on CZcams and you'll see those synth players don't need to transpose it to play along.
The synth backing track used for Jump in the Greensboro live show is heard in C#, exactly a semitone above where it should be. My guess is someone accidentally nudged a hardware sequencer (or a DAW) or a transpose setting on the synth itself for it to play a semitone above C. It's not impossible to do it by accident, especially if the operator happened to bump a setting in a DAW, so I doubt it was malicious.
Instead of a backing track there may have been an offstage synth player, oblivious (or powerless) to the erroneous key change.
The 48000/44100 Hz theory doesn't really hold up mathematically since the difference there is closer to 8%, compared to 5.6% between Middle C (C4) and C#4.
Incidentally the '1984' intro in the Greensboro live show is identical to the studio version, and in the correct key. Presumably they didn't bother with a MIDI version of '1984' since it would be hard to replicate, and in any case the band doesn't need to play along with it.
I suspect they didn't use the synth part from the studio version as a backing track because the track was recorded to fade out, not to a finale.
The show must go on...
Yeah, would have been a lot simpler with hindsight to just play it live as the original! 😅
Eddie's guitar tech said he smacked the headstock and went out of tune, refused a replacement guitar the keys were the right pitch Eddie tuned on the fly to his low E that was a half step flat.
What Wolfie said was that he also tuned to Eddie so it was doomed as we hear it.
Eddie rammed his guitar neck on the stage and messed it up
Wings of Pegasus--you are wrong!!!!!!!! VH has been using the same keyboard backing track for the 1984 intro and Jump since the Hagar days, and the pre-recorded keyboard track VH has been playing Jump in C# --a half step higher than the record for years. Also when Wolfie plays, he is playing in tune with the keyboard track.. All of EVH's guitars are tuned to open E flat except for the guitars that he uses to play on keyboard heavy songs such as Jump and I'ill Wait. As a result, EVH has to have a separate guitar tuned to play on keyboard songs--Jump and I'll Wait. EVH does not have the properly tuned guitar for this song. This is 100% on EVH. EVH must have some kind of a rule against his tech coming on stage to hand him guitars. However, all EVH has to do is go over to his tech's station and get the designated Jump tuned guitar and start right in where the rest of the band is playing.
The proof is this--search CZcams and find two other live performances of Jump post DLR 1.0 where VH is using a prerecorded keyboard track and sync them up and play them simultaneously. It becomes very clear that the keyboard tracks are playing the same pitch and speed (thus no playback issue with Pro-tools) . Likewise the vocals and bass will be playing at the same pitch and speed across all 3 live performances. However, the guitar on this live performance the Greensboro NC 2007 debacle will have EVH playing a guitar that is painfully out of tune with the other two tracks.
EVH's former guitar tech Lonnie Totman explains this debacle. You can google his explanation.. Totman was not EVH's tech at the time of this debacle but he knows about the need to change to a Jump tuned guitar,and he also knows about the way that the pro-tools recorded keyboard track is played for live concerts. Totman also explains why this can not be matter of playing the pre-recorded keyboard tracks on pro-tools playing back at the wrong sample rate
Why does Eddie not go and get the right guitar for this song? He obviously can hear that he is not playing in the same key as the backing tracks, the vocals and the bass, but he chooses to do nothing about it. This debacle is 100% on EVH. There is no reason why he cant just change to the correct Jump designated guitar and pick up playing where the rest of the band is in the song.
That is crazy! Thanks for the info, why didn't Eddie just move his playing up by one fret? This is why I thought it must be more complicated, because it should be such an easy fix for someone of Eddie's ability.
Thank you for the INFORMED explanation. I believe there were actual telephones at the time this was recorded. Fil could easily have picked up the phone and called someone from the Van Halen organization for an explanation...
no dash for a capo ?????
@@wingsofpegasus Agree. My guitars are all half step off. I frequently play with others in standard tune. Too lazy to retune, I'll just move everything, and figure out the opens or different octave. I've seen pros jam and do the same thing. Pretty sure Stevie does it when he breaks that string, he slides up finds the note and starts from there. EVH certainly has the capability or just walk over and grab another. A puzzler.
Wrong, watch the many other videos of Jump from this tour and you will see that the Keyboards tracks are identical to this video. The guitar was clearly out of tune or tuned incorrectly for this track. You can see his tech off stage with the proper guitar almost signaling him to hand it off around the 2:00 mark of this video.
Yes a member of the stage crew has confirmed Eddie had the wrong guitar. I thought if that were the case he'd just transpose it!
@@wingsofpegasus
Guitarists are creatures of habit it is virtually impossible just to transpose a guitar that quickly on the fly under that much pressure when you used to doing it a certain way all the time. Playing guitar is mostly about muscle memory doing something you always do you have to practice it that way sorry it's not that easy.. Eddie mostly plays an E flat and a flat he has a few songs that he plays in natural E tuning he just gave him the wrong guitar or tuned the guitar to the wrong key that's all it was and you could see him trying to give him another guitar Eddie was being stubborn and didn't take it..
I suck at transposing and we did a gig with low power and our B3 was low by a whole step. The whole night was a lesson for us all. We should have retuned to match, but we weren't that smart back then. Does the nasty power sound in this vid have anything to do with what could have caused this?
Ouch! I don't know, the sound is pretty bad all round so could be!
Eddie has nasty ears. He is almost deaf...
I saw a VH show in downtown Dallas in the late '80s-early '90s they did as a surprise makeup show for cancelling the year before, ended up about 30 feet from the front of the stage and when they played Pound Cake Sammy came up beside Eddie and put his arm around his shoulder and some fabric/strap/stuff fell across Eddie's strings. In about 1/100000000000th of a second the fabric was GONE. Eddie was not having interruptions that day
Haha cool!
great video 🤘🎸
that"s one of nightmare
weird technicians team fault
bless eddie 😓🇺🇸
Yeah it was like a set up!
When playing live you sometimes have to eat a bag of sh** on technical issues or else ruin the spell of the show. This was one of those times. These guys knew something was up, but handled it like a pro. Show must go on.
Shit happens even to the best players.
Great break down. Couldnt imagine what that would be like on stage.
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Hey P, I was curious if the length of the song was comparable to other nights on the tour? If the dat or loop device had a speed adjustment dial, that would simultaneously bump the key up and shorten the song. It would be so easy to bump that unless it was taped down, that’s what I think happened.
The only other thing that I can add is that had it been Sammy Hagar and Michael Anthony there, they would have called a halt to it and not continued until the ship was righted.
Yeah probably!
I noticed right away it was too high...poor guys, they tried
Yeah it's a nightmare!
Hey, Fil ... I just caught this shiny gem tonight. I am having a blast discovering your channel, Braddah! So, I thought I'd toss in my two pence worth. As solo performer, I rely heavily upon backing tracks at each and every show. About 10 years or so ago, I discovered this newfangled thingy called "D.A.W." >o.O< That was a real game changer, fer shure! BUT! In those early days, I inexplicably experienced either tempo or tuning issues from time. Obviously, the tempo bit was an easy fix ... just go faster or slower. Right? But, if I had any issues with tuning, I was almost certainly sunk. I thought it was something to do with how I saved the performance, but the problem lied within my old lag-prone laptop. Some of the tunes I'd loaded were quite CPU thirsty, and drank that juice like mad! It was just certain tunes, on my old laptop that proved most troublesome for me. I'd hazard a guess, to some extent, this might have been the culprit here in this situation ( ? ) Now, 10 years and 5 laptops on, things are much, much better as technology is constantly improving. Yay upgrades! But, seriously ... Thank You for taking time to share not only your talent, but your delightful and witty commentary with us. \m/(>.
No problem!
Love watching this again.My first Fil Vlog 💞 Get well Dear Fil
Original studio recording was in C. Listen to the live album with Sammy, they started playing this song sharp, in C#, which means Eddie would need a different guitar to be in key. This backing track is also in C#. Listen to the newer live album with Dave, they also played jump in C#. Simplest answer is that at some point they started playing Jump a half step sharp. Someone just gave Eddie the wrong guitar and didn’t match the backing track. I think all the theories about sampling rate or someone hitting the transpose button on midi for just this one night are off base. It’s way more plausible that this one night he had the wrong guitar than for anything else to be the case. Jump has been played live a half step sharp for years, consistently.
Makes sense!
Paul Gittinger Either tech gave him wrong guitar or forgot and tuned it 1/2 step incorrectly..
Paul Gittinger I do believe you are right. I commented above that they would not intentionally pick a higher key live (too hard to sing) but you proved me wrong; I just watched them do it live in C# and even D!
That's it - Ediie's guitar is tuned a half-step lower
Keyboard being run by sequencer, accidentally transposed 1/2 step sharp (?)
Some sequencers come bundled with a pitchshifter built in, I thought maybe one had malfunctioned, it was a long shot! 😂
With all the electronics/lights/stage effects in live music...there are a million things that can go wrong. Nice job with a professional insight to what modern musicians have to deal with. Cool video
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Love your videos Phil. 👍❤️🇨🇦