This is a great scene for displaying Worf's character development. You would expect him to go in guns blazing in a situation like this, but he only fought back when it became the only option, showing that he did indeed follow the example that Picard set for him for all those years.
Watching TNG, Worf's suggestions were often so volatile, impulsively opting for the most extreme strategic option and I often found myself thinking that he should probably never be in command of a starship. But when he's actually in the seat, he conducts himself with absolute professionalism and mindfulness even in the most dire, tense circumstances. I love DS9 Worf.
@@beastinthesky6774 in fairness to worf when he was on the bridge of the enterprise his job was to offer the most tactical solution. To set the bar of what 'could' be done from a military perspective; even if he himself wouldn't do it. Worf is a good officer and good at his job.
Don’t forget Worf saved the Klingons when they awoke from their “long slumber” when the only option was to destroy the ship. He knew peace when it was needed.
I really like how half the time Bashir's official position on the Defiant bridge is just standing next to the captain's chair making remarks about whatever is happening
I will say, if there's any rando to have on the bridge, it's Bashir. Sure he can't telepathically sense emotion when the plot demands it, but he is, as Garak said "a Vulcan".
@@mastermonarch Would he fight against Lakota? Yes, he would. Would he destroy her? No he would not. He was ruthless sometimes, that is true. But when it helped to gain his goal. Especially when he takes something very personal like the betrayel by Eddington. Yes, making a Marquis' planet inhabitable was not very fine, but. He issued an ultimatum to Eddington and the Marquis, he warned them about the action he is going to do so they could get off the planet in time. If Sisko was that ruthless as you describe him he would have just launched that torpedoes.
The Lakota looked pretty dangerous. It could have very well destroyed the Defiant if it used the quantum torpedoes and went on the offensive. An Excelsior class is quite the warship.
@@SantomPh Defiant is also armed with quantum torpedoes. They could have destroyed each other. An Exelcior Class in its original configuration is not quite the warship an Escort Class is. Lakota is only so dangerous because she is modified.
Yea they should also hire some people to do something about all those rocks and conveniently shaped debris that most panels seem to be filled with. Could save lives :/
Jeremy Salkeld I think he was making a joke about the mirror universe Worf and how abusive he tended to be with the controls on that attack cruiser of his LOL :-P I liked the exchange between mirror universe Worf and mirror universe Garak LOL....Garak it seems had the same droll sense of humor in every universe :-D
josamen Its one of the First Scenes from Star Trek: First Contact. The Defiant is badly damaged, Worf smacks the controls on the Captains console and orders the helmsman to go to ramming speed. The Enterprise saves the Defiant moments later.
@@jeremydaly8293 True, in the novels, captain Picard ordered the enterprise to ram a romulan warship. They sliced the neck off the romulan ship and destroyed it. The enterprise took moderate damage and it took a couple days for repairs. They shook up the tech manuals and the history books. They probably should have had their onboard computer replaced and the parts sent into a sun for destruction.
@@varianschirmer9375 Because the Defiant was designed to be a test bed for new anti-Borg technologies. Slapping ablative armor onto it was probably a lot easier than doing the same to a fully established design like the Galaxy class starship.
The estimated body count for each ship showcases one of the great sell points of the Defiant class during war. Less crew requirements means less loss of life.
@@Slazors You know it's funny you say that...Because we never really know comparative power levels between GCS and Defiant class. I'm pretty certain 1.5×.. maybe 2×.. But the the GCS war refit....Probably equal. Maybe even edge with the refit GCS...
@@KH4444444444N A Galaxy class has more firepower coverage, more torpedoes, better sensors, a much better warp engine, better endurance (how long the ship can stay out of port) and much more redundancy. A Defiant class has more frontal firepower (but relatively weak weapons elsewhere), much more agility, ablative armour, and is much cheaper to build. My point? Apples and oranges. The Galaxy is a heavyweight battleship, built to slug it out in extended engagements. The Defiant is a strike craft, built for short offensive engagements. They're different beasts.
@@Cailus3542 I get what you are saying. But this is not and "apples vs oranges" discussion. We are speaking of battle effectiveness. And in such a discussion, Defiant>GCS everytime. However, War Refit GCS=/>Defiant.
Or a first officer...see below. "I've had twelve years to think about it. And if I had it to do over again, I would've grabbed the phaser and pointed it at you instead of them." -Cmdr. Will Riker Star Trek the Next Generation, "The Pegasus"
"Duty" isn't just following orders. Many an atrocity has been committed with that excuse. As a commanding officer Benteen had a duty to justify to herself the morality of her orders.
@@danieldickson8591duty can even mean refusing orders, if it's justified. Illegal orders are never to be followed and ADM Layton's orders were very much illegal.
Something I noticed while watching this episode today: - Benteen orders a couple of love taps. Waits a few seconds. Then his them again to get the point across. -Worf hails them. -Benteen orders another shot. BAM message received. - Worf orders the Defiant crew to fight back. - Once this happens you can see that the Lakota opens up. The gloves are off. To a point. I wish we could see what happened from the perspective of the Lakota bridge.
@Nicholas Millington Indeed, with 2+ casualties on the Defiant and 20+ on the Lakota, it was clear which ship was taking the bigger beating, even with the disadvantage of forward-facing pulse phasers.
@@nerdock4747 Defiant has 9 casualties (2 KIA, 7 seriously wounded). So % wise, Lakota was losing less of her crew in the fight than the Defiant was. We don't get a breakdown of KIA/wounded on Lakota, so can't assess the KIA % vs. wounded % ... Based on 50 on the Defiant (Sisko, in the episode) and 750 on the Lakota (standard crew compliment of an Excelsior)
@@Milamberinx dialogue from the episode. Kira confirms one more shot would probably finish them and O Brien points out it would kill everyone on board.
"Why are we fighting?" "No idea. Those are really good phasers, by the way. Did you get refitted?" "Yes, very recently. Thanks for noticing! And what kind of armor is that, little one?" "Custom job. Oh, and I'm sorry if I wind up destroying you." "I would say the same."
Captain Bentene is one of my favourite one off characters in Trek. The way she's characterised and used in these episodes is really cool. They put her in an interesting position and manage to make her fairly complex with very little screen time. The way she hesitates and then respectfully questions the admiral is so well done. It's obvious she's testing him to see how far he'll go. Credit to the actor. I think she handles the part really well.
I think it was same actress who play Leah Brahms in Star trek TNG and she was also consider for lead role of Captain Janeway in Star Trek Voyager. Its shame that they cosider her as too young for that role. And funny is that she was also considered for role of Seven or Borg queen,
@@jarilehtinen2909 Nah. Ever seen a sleeper PC? You can put modern components in an old beige computer, and it works just as well. There's more room on the Lakota for upgrades than the entire size of the Defiant. It would make sense if the shield batteries and phaser banks were upgraded, it could outclass the Defiant. Remember, the Federation was at war, and the Defiant is not new technology at this point - there was plenty of time to make the Lakota battle-ready.
@@jarilehtinen2909 I don't think there is any indication when the Lakota was placed into service, the Federation seemed to build a fair few of them during TNG and over time better materials and components could certainly be incorporated into a starship design. Word also wasn't expecting a Federation ship to fire on them, though it was pretty poor judgement of him to hold back, especially when those events were happening.
So why not upgrade all the Exelcior class buckets? They have the whole ship that needs just new warpcore and weapons. Rest is there. This is just lazy writing.
1:50......I just love the Defiant's phasers on that strafing run! The little Defiant is just the perfect definition of a pocket-battleship; small package but serious firepower!
Admiral Leyton: Just fire on the Defiant. No Starfleet officer would risk a civil war over such an encounter. Captain Benteen: Sir, there's a Klingon in command of the Defiant. Leyton: Oh Fuck!.
"Paradise Lost" (not "Emissary, Part 1," as incorrectly noted above) is arguably THE most important episode of DS9 -- of the entire Star Trek franchise. Why? Because it shows quite graphically exactly why the military should NEVER be in charge of the government. I never saw a better performance from Avery Brooks. I think he understood the gravity of the subject being discussed. Actually, everyone did a great job, from Brock Peters as Joseph Sisko to Colm Meaney as an ersatz Chief O'Brien. But the real star is the victory of right over wrong, of moral people of conscience over those who commit atrocities because they were "just following orders." I love the rehabilitation of Captain Benteen as she realizes that Admiral Leyton has betrayed Star Fleet and the United Federation. And what a chilling performance the very talented Robert Foxworth gives as the psychotic Admiral Leyton. In these days when we heap praise on going in with guns blazing, casually murdering innocents who "just get in the way" as "collateral damage," a re-viewing of this splendid morality play would be well advised.
I loved this 2-parter, and agree it is Hall of Fame Star Trek, and even science fiction as well. I remembered this episode when I enlisted in the military after 9/11, and promised myself I would do the exact same thing as Capt. Benteen if I ever got those orders.
Said the devious Dr Franklin, double agent for the British with a side dish of French. A true American, a foot in both camps. ISBN 0-086554-525-1 MUP/H395 MERCER University Press.
@@Drake1701 yaas after the initial firing of the phaser cannons. So really there was no communication error. I don't see the problem with the scene as the torpedo could have been ordered off screen :3 x
To be fair, on the Galaxy class, there are phaser arrays on the pylon of the nacelles. The Excelsior class has phaser banks along the aft hull. The torpedo missing the phaser bank and hitting the pylon could happen.
in my opinion, the USS Defiant would beat most, if not all recent capital ships, friendly or not, the weaponry, together with the vessels smaller size, I think it would be victorious against against any capital ship from Star Wars, and would easily evade the Death Star's 1 and 2, primary weapon, the crew would gradually, technologically take them out, from within.
@@bostonrailfan2427 The Defiant was pulling just as many punches and took 5 hits before defending itself. The Lakota was still the ship in worse shape.
@@redpillfreedom6692 The Lakota is also like, a hundred years old. It's like a jacked 60 year old Rocky fighting prime Bruce Lee. Did alright for an old Tub.
Re: the episode "Paradise Lost" -- This is arguably THE most important episode of DS9 -- of the entire Star Trek franchise. Why? Because it shows quite graphically exactly why the military should NEVER be in charge of the government. I never saw a better performance from Avery Brooks. I think he understood the gravity of the subject being discussed. Actually, everyone did a great job, from Brock Peters as Joseph Sisko to Colm Meaney as an ersatz Chief O'Brien. But the real star is the victory of right over wrong, of moral people of conscience over those who commit atrocities because they were "just following orders." I love the rehabilitation of Captain Benteen as she realizes that Admiral Leyton has betrayed Star Fleet and the United Federation. And what a chilling performance the very talented Robert Foxworth gives as the psychotic Admiral Leyton. In these days when we heap praise on going in with guns blazing, casually murdering innocents who "just get in the way" as "collateral damage," a re-viewing of this splendid morality play would be well advised.
Interestingly, we got to see Robert Foxworth as a general going against his government for legitimate reasons in Babylon 5 a year or so earlier, and his appearance in DS9 led to his B5 character being killed off due to his agent double-booking him!
@@Bek359 I liked Bruce McGill's outtake in Babylon 5 when asked where General Hague is....he was like "General Hague...is on Deep Space Nine....it seems he was double-booked by his agent and there was nothing to be done" LOL :P
While I could agree in principle with the likes of Leyton and Admiral Marcus in the reboot that Starfleet did need more combat-ready starships capable of fighting in protracted wartime situations.....I wouldn't've tried to overthrow the government and make a military police state in order to make it happen
Robert Foxworth also later appears in Enterprise season 4 during a 3 parter about Vulcan. He plays Administrator V'Las, head of the Vulcan High Command.
It's a great episode, of course, but there are two or three that I find similarly terrific. For one, there's Far beyond the Stars. Or Duet. Or In the pale moonlight.
I do like how they used to pad out these battle scenes, I suspect for budgetary reasons: Between the fade to black and the cut to the scene on earth you have about a minute and a half of "battle", but if you notice there's only about 15 seconds or so of exterior ship shots, the rest is just the bridge crew narrating whats happening. How to stretch your special effects budget 101
90% of the battle is in the CIC. Ever watched Battleship? Sure, the Captain generates the tactics, but the CIC not only makes it happen, but has the ability to assess the battle FOR the Captain!
It really is a good trick in this kind of fight, if shields work the way they seem to. Rotatin extends the lives of your shields, since different projectors cover different parts of the ship and one may be fresh while another is weakened.
1:32 O'Brien: "What'll we do, Commander?" (Mumbles) "Please don't say 'It's a good day to die.'" Worf: "What was that. Chief?" O'Brien: "Nothing. Commander."
Excelsior class is just perfect size to be highly mobile like ambassador or interpid , and still is big enough to be refited with more modern tech ,my personal favorite.
The original Excelsior was commissioned in Kirk's time, a good century (give or take) before this. It's not my favorite design, but I can appreciate the longevity.
The Excelsior-class was build to last, hence why it was even used during the Dominon wars. The ship was build to be adaptable to most forms of advanced technology, hell even the original pathfinder model 'had' Transwarp before it was FUBAR'd by Scotty.
I liked how in this two-parter, the audience knows and sees what Sisko knows and sees, and Sisko needs a bit of guile to figure out what's going on. That made the story very engaging.
Shame that Benteen should have been able to see that Leyton didn’t have his commbadge, which should have raised an eyebrow, to say nothing of the “taking off the commbadge means taking off the uniform” thing.
It is kinda neat that Worf said the names of the people who died. Really hammers the fact that they lost two crewmates in better than just saying that they lost two.
@@stars9084 7th US Cavalry Company Commander Captain Frederick Benteen fought the Sioux,and Cheyenne at the battle of Little Big Horn July 1876 with George Custer.
Well, Reno and Benteen held out for two days, until the arrival of General Terry the next day caused the Native Americans to withdraw and flee the field. For Custer, not so much.
to be fair, weapons do not exist solely on the saucer section. The Excelsior class has weapons all along the aft section of the secondary hull. The Galaxy class has phaser banks on the Nacelle Pylons. These shots missing and hitting the nacelle is entirely possible.
That was the original Excelsior Class model built for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, it was later upgraded with addon parts to serve as the Enterprise-B in Star Trek Generations, unfortunately the glue that was used to attach the new parts to the model would have caused irreparable damage to the model upon removal, so they were unable to revert it back to it's original state, hence it's appearance in this episode.
@@DelcoRanz93 not really since the only parts that have been replaced are the weapons and the addons are the warp upgraded warp drive as for the weapons the torpedo replacements would be the same Quantum torpedos as those used by the Enteprise E.
Models were still the go-to method of doing ship-to-ship combat at this point - the only purely CGI shot of Deep Space Nine itself is the tracking shot of the station disappearing into the distance in the show's final episode.
@@DelcoRanz93 the difference is the Lakota is an upgraded version of the Enterprise B despite the fact that using the same Enterprise B model with DS9 era weapons and upgraded warp drive tech appropiate for the DS9 era,
Sisko got promoted in Season 3 - hardly near the end of DS9's 7 year run. He got the Christopher Pike Medal in season 6 or 7, maybe that's what you're thinking of...
Worf's trying to avoid the natural reaction and think about it for a moment. He has going through his mind, "Would Picard try to negotiate in this situation? I might need to take that approach. Wait, they won't even answer our hails so that idea is out. Ok, fighting is correct"
Maybe over a few years. Starfleet had likely around 8,000 active ships at the time. The war was about to begin soon, and shipyards were busy building Saber, Intrepid, Steamrunner, Akira, Sovereign, Defiant, Norway, and Galaxy-class starships. Lakota wasn't as old as many of the other Excelsiors, so it's possible she was easier to upgrade to heavy-destroyer, or better standards. Older Miranda, Oberth, Costellation, and Excelsiors might be too expensive to completely overhaul. The older ships almost certainly had structural limitations besides just outdated systems. The DS9 Manual suggests multiple types were being built with an average of at least 30% more offensive capabilities over their original specifications. Lakota is one of those ships most people quickly assumed was some crazy Starfleet Admiral's pet project, rather than a harbinger of what engineers were trying to do before war broke out. Seeing as they exponentially increased DS9's combat effectiveness within a year, this shouldn't be so difficult to accept.
@@Euripides_Panz "Starfleet had likely around 8,000 active ships at the time." The funny thing is that doesn't seem like a lot considering according the wiki federation space is 8000 cubic light years and The federations insistence on making multi role ships and not ships designed for combat and a good chunk of those ships being science vessels with minimal weaponry. I'm amazed they actually keep militaristic empires at bay.
@@tsdobbi Space Stations and Orbtal Defense Platforms, also most militaristic empires had roughly equal numbers or much worse tech. Hell with ROmulans heavily lacked numbers.
You gotta love the Defiant! Pummelled by upgraded weapons from a ship about 3-4 times its size, and yet the "tough little ship" causes 3 times as many casualties on the other side. Brilliant!
Well, there are several decades of technology differences between an Excelsior and Defiant class ships. Excelsior class ships are just heavy cruisers, while a Defiant is basically Starfleet's " ̶S̶t̶a̶r̶ ̶F̶i̶g̶h̶t̶e̶r̶" Escort ship.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial They mention the Defiant was also upgraded with armour, which is why the battle went the way it did. Without that.......they may have lost because as usual it took Worf too long to fire back. So the "borg killer" ship was so tough it could just barely beat a century old start fleet ship with extra upgrades. Typical star fleet military tech lol.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial A century old design, but the ship itself isn't likely that old. If someone built a functioning car identical in apperance to my 2002 Camry, it would be a 20 year old design but the individual car would be brand new.
I know he was briefly 'strategic operations officer' which means he has some tactical and security training. But Bashir is the sort who likes to sit around and inject his supergenius. Which he really is a supergenius! I imagine that makes him all the more insufferable when he injects his opinions.
I know you're going to think I'm being a nitpicker but he was actually made intelligence officer in "Soldiers of the Empire," when Worf was absent on a mission with Martok. That was after this episode. It had to be Bashir because he had an appropriate security clearance level and aptitude to access and understand the most secret intelligence reports from Starfleet... as a physician.
So, I wonder if the Lakota and Benteen are references to The Battle of Little Big Horn. The Lakota was the one of the major Indian tribes at the battle, and Capt. Frederick Benteen was in charge of three of the 7th Cavalry's companies at the battle.
@@iamanevutable981 That's tue, McCoy was even worse, hanging out on the bridge without anything to do there for him, well besides having fits of baroque indignation.
Showed how much more maneuverable Defiant was than the old Excelsior. Benteen only stood a chance because Worf was trying his damnedest not to kill her.
Unlike most Federation starships, the Defiant was built for one purpose, to fight. It's so small because it carries almost nothing extraneous to that purpose.
I love how they upgraded the Lakota. Pushing old technology to its utmost limits, making an old class viable again. A pity those upgrades were first used in an act of treason.
Canon proof that the Excelsior is a very upgradable ship class. Given this upgrade and their service in the Dominion war, I imagine all it would take is a structural refit to make those ships viable for another few decades.
mojojojo511 As we all know so well, Hollywood is uber-competitive. What about the rivalry between Jennifer Lawrence and Shailene Woodley, is there room enough for both of them?
Indeed, like airwolf, she regularly picks on weaker ships and gets praised for that. And she crumbles fast in the face of a proper opponent. Like airwolf.
Defiant was more like Blue Thunder. Both were ultimately destroyed. Both were overt, intrusive, and sneaky. Both intended for impending crisis that didn't materialize when expected, but used at least once, on a nefarious mission against a political opponent.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial "Except Airwolf didn’t blow up." Actually that's exactly what it did... after the TV series it got sold to Germany for a medical helicopter and it crashed killing all on board.
It's like sending an email to all. If it's not directed to you, you just ignore the content of the message. I bet they ignore a lot of reports from Starfleet captains
captains are encouraged to let their engineering teams experiment to improve their ships' performances above shipyard spec wherever possible. It's one of the reasons the Dominion, despite an enormous technological advantage, struggled against Federation technology as time passed.
For some reason, I like how they gave the Excelsior-Class a moment to shine here. Elsewhere, it often gets lumped in with the Miranda-Class; being called a Red Shirt-Ship and all that.
Defiant: -"You're Federation, you're not gonna fire on us!" Lakota: -"I'm Starfleet Security. I can fire on whomever I want!" Defiant: -"I got ablative armor!" Lakota: -"I got quantum torpedoes!" Defiant: -"And I have your daddy on speed dial!" Lakota: -"....... _touché!_ "
Here's a question: Did no one bother to look at historical records? Kirk's Enterprise was attacked by a "Federation" ship with Khan in command. If you're in command and an allied vessel says "We're going to attack you" and then comes with shields raised - Take it at face value.
The Lakota should have been given more of a role in the Dominion war. With the refits to her guns and engines, she was an ass kicker. She could go toe to toe with the Defiant, which was Star Fleet's only dedicated warship at the time. She's one of my favorite ships.
Actually the Enterprise-E was involved int he Dominion War too according to the books. I think there's a book where the Enterprise-E helps to retake Betazed from the Dominion.
The Big E was considered basically a small fleet by itself, captained by one of the most experienced, badass captains Starfleet had on the lists, so it basically went around doing random important missions (it's canon - Insurrection has a throwaway line by Picard bitching about it at the beginning). And of course in the books it was an actual flagship.
didnt exactly go toe to toe, it got about 5 free shots off, used quantum torpedoes on the defiant, and had about 30 seconds to two minutes to destroy the defiant by the time the defiant began fighting back. by the end of the fight, the lakota was one good hit away from death while the defiant was roughed up but could probably push through it. not to mention only 2 people died on the defiant while at least 24 died on the lakota. this was far from a fair fight.
This is how I see Starfleet captains. Archer: no nonsense. He did what he felt was right. Kirk: sly as a fox. Silver tongue. Heck of a right hook. Picard: level headed, intelligent, diplomatic. A credit to the true priority of Starfleet. Sisko: Bad ass. Tough as nails, yet compassionate. Family man, and understanding. Janeway: Did what it took to survive, even if it meant blood on her hands. Made it her goal to get home, by any means.
Legend has it that that Admiral got so angry with his loss that he went back in time 2 centuries, got a species change to Vulcan, and blew up the Starfleet embassy on Vulcan.
+Jon Lyons I always thought Alexander Sidig must have been told to really over play himself there. Like the director just went up to him and said "Right, everyone has a line except you but I want you to really show the audience what you're thinking." So therefore he went with "Shit's getting real, Worf... How you gonna handle this you smooth talking sonofabitch?"
Jaden Desveaux He must had had some skill beyond being a Doctor. Remember, he was genetically enhanced. My best guess was that he was good with analysis and patterns. He was really good at numbers, so perhaps there was a statistical analysis position that he filled. I may be wrong, but, it could explain why he was on the bridge at times.
Nice fact: the Captain of the Lakota has the name Benteen, like Captain Benteen from the 7.Cavalry who was fighting in the Battle of Little Big Horn against the Lakota.
DS9 is the only show, movie, book etc. that truly showed just how dangerous shapeshifting/mimic enemies can be. Just 4 of them nearly brought the entire Federation to its knees. And the show did this in a plausible and convincing fashion. Every time something else uses shapeshifters I compare them to DS9 and they always come up woefully short.
Hearing that you're fighting the USS Defiant is like hearing that someone's pissed off the Hulk, strapped a warp engine to his back, and then two nuclear bombs to his fists.
Excellent analogy. I often think of the defiant as a war hammer or battle axe as well. A devastating blunt instrument of destruction. There is nothing precise about her. Raw firepower for chewing up shields and starship hulls.
"Are we making a run for it?" "Do we cloak?" Here is an idea to avoid a battle. Go to maximum warp, and why the 80 year old Excelsior class is turning around and accelerating, drop the shields and activate the cloak. But I appreciate that the writers decided to show us some space action instead.
Před 3 lety+1
According to the DS9:TM in the 2370th, the Starfleet refitet the Excelsior class (along with the Galaxy- and Nebula class) and equipped them with a new warp drive. Those ships can go to Warp 9.9 after the refit. So O'Brien was right and they couldn't run away. The book mentions preparation for war against The Dominion as a reason. But I guess it is related to the TNG episode "Force of Nature". Otherwise it would have made little sense to completely overhaul old spaceships again. The younger Ambassador class was unfortunately not mentioned. The Oberth and Miranda class spaceships were already being retired. Now there is the Nova and Saber class as a replacement.
Well, my suggestion was to go to warp, and then cloak. It doesn't matter how fast the Lakota is with it's refitted warpdrive - turning around and accelerating would've taken at least 10 seconds - and in that timeframe, the Defiant could've engaged it's cloak, go on an alternative course and slow down speed to avoid being detected.
Před 3 lety+1
@@danielk5780 Okay, that would certainly have been an option. The question is how well the sensors of the Lakota and other Starfleet facilities can locate cloaked spaceships. The weaknesses of the cloaking device were well known since the first expedition of the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant.
Your probably right with detecting cloaked ships. The federation was in a long cold war with the romulans and they likely had perimeter sensors (I believe they were mentioned in a TNG episode) to prevent a cloaked fleet of warbirds suddenly appearing in earth orbit.
I'm surprised they didn't equip the Defiant with a front-affixed pilot like on a locomotive since they gave it to Worf to command. "ABLATIVE ARMOR AND **RAMMING SPEED!**"
Chief O'Brien is right for an Excelsior class ship like the USS Lakota she was tough to take on the Defiant. But both ships survived. Too bad we didn't get to see the Lakota use those Quantum torpedoes. The Enterprise E and the Defiant use quantum torpedoes.
@@ilpoomatili9549 Defiant fired an aft photon torpedo at the end of it's initial run at the Lakota. We don't know if they used any of their forward quantum torpedoes, but I doubt it. Pulse phasers were enough.
@@Zero8880 if we count that quantums where the reason for ending it, they propably were not used. But Defiants attack was not enough, it stoped becouse neither where wiling to risk the others destruction
it was designed to fight the BORG ... Excelsior class, no matter how upgraded" wouldnt stand a chance against the Defiant. Defiant was built as a warship with more firepower and engine power than even that reinforced and armored hull could withstand ... it would run circles around Lakota, its shielding wouldnt be damaged by the weak power output of Lakotas warpcore and Defiants weaponry would just tear through the Excelsior shielding ... i would believe that scene if they were facing Sovereign or even Galaxy class as those are either using top of the line tech or are able to be upgraded to the top of the line... Excelsior simply cant, the hull wouldnt support it... Unless you want to tell me the Federation took old ship, gutted it until there was nothing but outer hull left then replaced EVERYTHING inside ... which wouldnt make any sense, it would be easier to build a new ship...
saquist Yeah... "Raise shields, and hail them" should've been a logical command.. Oh well, guess he knew it was gonna happen, i listen to my Warrior's Gut too.
I just find it amusing that there is a Captain Benteen on the Lakota. "Frederick William Benteen (August 24, 1834 - June 22, 1898) was a military officer during the American Civil War and then during the Indian Campaigns and Great Sioux War against the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne. Benteen is best known for being in command of a battalion (Companies D, H,& K) of the 7th U. S. Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in late June, 1876."
You newer know how history repeatet itself. Compare the Romans general who died by battle on Cannae of the Kartagians Hanibal, have the same name as the Germany general who losse in Stalingrad. Consul general Paulus. :-)
Bashir standing there near the captains chair looking serious with his arms folded even though he has no reason to be on the bridge... Feels liked he just decided to channel McCoy that day.
I kitted my default defiant in STO with my this loadout and I was very impressed. 2 Heavy phaser cannons. One phaser strip, quantum torpedo. Then I unlocked my Sovereign class and it only got better.
they always underpowered it, it should have wiped the Lakota out with little problem, the first and only warship Starfleet made at the time and was designed to kill Borg cubes, also it had quantum torpedos from the start aswell as phasers designed to shoot through even shields that learned.
Everyone's talking about how hot the Captain of the Lakota is, and to give them credit, she is. But what we really should be talking about is the Refitted Excelsior-class Heavy Cruiser. Now that's an attractive ship.
O'Brien actually had 3 kids.
Molly, Kirayoshi, and the Defiant.
4. DS9 was his kid.. didn't function correctly without him.
Don't forget the cardassian stepchild "DS9 "
@@Jimusmc we'll say special needs kid.
@@iamanevutable981 Don't forget his holo-program of the Battle of Britain.
And 2 wives counting Julian.
This is a great scene for displaying Worf's character development. You would expect him to go in guns blazing in a situation like this, but he only fought back when it became the only option, showing that he did indeed follow the example that Picard set for him for all those years.
Watching TNG, Worf's suggestions were often so volatile, impulsively opting for the most extreme strategic option and I often found myself thinking that he should probably never be in command of a starship. But when he's actually in the seat, he conducts himself with absolute professionalism and mindfulness even in the most dire, tense circumstances. I love DS9 Worf.
@@beastinthesky6774 in fairness to worf when he was on the bridge of the enterprise his job was to offer the most tactical solution. To set the bar of what 'could' be done from a military perspective; even if he himself wouldn't do it. Worf is a good officer and good at his job.
Plus he wasn't big on firing on a Starfleet vessel.
@@beastinthesky6774 He had better writing for his character on DS9 compared to TNG.
Don’t forget Worf saved the Klingons when they awoke from their “long slumber” when the only option was to destroy the ship. He knew peace when it was needed.
I really like how half the time Bashir's official position on the Defiant bridge is just standing next to the captain's chair making remarks about whatever is happening
lol accurate
I would always ask the chief medical officer about his opinion about tactics like to cloak or not to cloak during battle…😅
Just like McCoy in TOS era movies.
An homage to Dr. McCoy, especially when Spock was in command
I will say, if there's any rando to have on the bridge, it's Bashir. Sure he can't telepathically sense emotion when the plot demands it, but he is, as Garak said "a Vulcan".
The comical part isn't just that they decided to pick a fight with the Defiant, but that they did it while Worf was in command.
I am pretty sure it would not have made any difference with Sisko sitting in the chair.
Sisko was 10 times more ruthless he would have smoked the Lakota and left a floating turd
@@mastermonarch Would he fight against Lakota? Yes, he would. Would he destroy her? No he would not.
He was ruthless sometimes, that is true. But when it helped to gain his goal. Especially when he takes something very personal like the betrayel by Eddington. Yes, making a Marquis' planet inhabitable was not very fine, but. He issued an ultimatum to Eddington and the Marquis, he warned them about the action he is going to do so they could get off the planet in time. If Sisko was that ruthless as you describe him he would have just launched that torpedoes.
The Lakota looked pretty dangerous. It could have very well destroyed the Defiant if it used the quantum torpedoes and went on the offensive. An Excelsior class is quite the warship.
@@SantomPh Defiant is also armed with quantum torpedoes. They could have destroyed each other. An Exelcior Class in its original configuration is not quite the warship an Escort Class is. Lakota is only so dangerous because she is modified.
Starfleet really needs to institute a "return fire immediately" rule. They'd lose a lot fewer redshirts to exploding consoles that way.
lol
How about a "shields go up automatically when threatened" rule?
Also those rocks in the console act as projectiles. Who puts rocks in them anyway? For ballast?
Yea they should also hire some people to do something about all those rocks and conveniently shaped debris that most panels seem to be filled with. Could save lives :/
redshirts are expendable. so who cares?
good thing worf didn't get mad,bang the controls and yell "PREPARE FOR RAMMING SPEED!"
Because Behr respects the character.
Jeremy Salkeld I think he was making a joke about the mirror universe Worf and how abusive he tended to be with the controls on that attack cruiser of his LOL :-P
I liked the exchange between mirror universe Worf and mirror universe Garak LOL....Garak it seems had the same droll sense of humor in every universe :-D
josamen Its one of the First Scenes from Star Trek: First Contact. The Defiant is badly damaged, Worf smacks the controls on the Captains console and orders the helmsman to go to ramming speed. The Enterprise saves the Defiant moments later.
To be fair, he's fighting the Borg, which means if they reach Earth everyone dies. Worf makes the right call going for a suicide run
@@jeremydaly8293
True, in the novels, captain Picard ordered the enterprise to ram a romulan warship. They sliced the neck off the romulan ship and destroyed it. The enterprise took moderate damage and it took a couple days for repairs. They shook up the tech manuals and the history books. They probably should have had their onboard computer replaced and the parts sent into a sun for destruction.
"someone has equipped her with ablative armor and neglected to inform Starfleet Operations"
Kinda like you guys upgraded the Lakota?
Sisko had ablative armor strapped onto the thing about 3 years before this episode.
And a good thing too. He just "forgot" to mention it to anybody. His is *_The Sisko_* after all.
If the ablative armor is that good...
Why is the whole fleet NOT getting that?
@@varianschirmer9375 Because the Defiant was designed to be a test bed for new anti-Borg technologies. Slapping ablative armor onto it was probably a lot easier than doing the same to a fully established design like the Galaxy class starship.
If Starfleet didn't know about the ablative armor... where did Sisko obtain the upgrade from?
A connection of Quark's?
The estimated body count for each ship showcases one of the great sell points of the Defiant class during war. Less crew requirements means less loss of life.
Minimal crew with a firepower equal to or maybe even greater than a Galaxy class. She's a warship alright
@@Slazors You know it's funny you say that...Because we never really know comparative power levels between GCS and Defiant class. I'm pretty certain 1.5×..
maybe 2×..
But the the GCS war refit....Probably equal. Maybe even edge with the refit GCS...
@@KH4444444444N A Galaxy class has more firepower coverage, more torpedoes, better sensors, a much better warp engine, better endurance (how long the ship can stay out of port) and much more redundancy.
A Defiant class has more frontal firepower (but relatively weak weapons elsewhere), much more agility, ablative armour, and is much cheaper to build.
My point? Apples and oranges. The Galaxy is a heavyweight battleship, built to slug it out in extended engagements. The Defiant is a strike craft, built for short offensive engagements. They're different beasts.
@@Cailus3542 I get what you are saying. But this is not and "apples vs oranges" discussion. We are speaking of battle effectiveness. And in such a discussion, Defiant>GCS everytime. However, War Refit GCS=/>Defiant.
@@Cailus3542 thats cause the defiant class was originally designed to fight off the borg but was repurposed for the dominion war
'You know where your duty lies' is a very dangerous thing to say to a Starfleet Captain.
Sometimes... Duty in itself... Can be a very dangerous thing...
It all depends on how much they've been coached on the righteousness of whatever cause they're fighting for.
Or a first officer...see below.
"I've had twelve years to think about it. And if I had it to do over again, I would've grabbed the phaser and pointed it at you instead of them."
-Cmdr. Will Riker
Star Trek the Next Generation, "The Pegasus"
"Duty" isn't just following orders. Many an atrocity has been committed with that excuse. As a commanding officer Benteen had a duty to justify to herself the morality of her orders.
@@danieldickson8591duty can even mean refusing orders, if it's justified. Illegal orders are never to be followed and ADM Layton's orders were very much illegal.
"What do we do, sir?"
"We kick ass."
Cue heavy metal riff for maximum cheese.
czcams.com/video/FLTchCiC0T0/video.html
Something I noticed while watching this episode today:
- Benteen orders a couple of love taps.
Waits a few seconds. Then his them again to get the point across.
-Worf hails them.
-Benteen orders another shot. BAM
message received.
- Worf orders the Defiant crew to fight back.
- Once this happens you can see that the Lakota opens up. The gloves are off. To a point.
I wish we could see what happened from the perspective of the Lakota bridge.
@Nicholas Millington Indeed, with 2+ casualties on the Defiant and 20+ on the Lakota, it was clear which ship was taking the bigger beating, even with the disadvantage of forward-facing pulse phasers.
@@nerdock4747 Defiant has 9 casualties (2 KIA, 7 seriously wounded). So % wise, Lakota was losing less of her crew in the fight than the Defiant was. We don't get a breakdown of KIA/wounded on Lakota, so can't assess the KIA % vs. wounded % ...
Based on 50 on the Defiant (Sisko, in the episode) and 750 on the Lakota (standard crew compliment of an Excelsior)
@@tuxedotservo but the Lakota was literally one shot away from being wiped out with all hands at the end
@@potsdam28 where did you get that from? I very much expect that Captain Benteen figured out that Sisko was right and let the Defiant pass.
@@Milamberinx dialogue from the episode. Kira confirms one more shot would probably finish them and O Brien points out it would kill everyone on board.
Notice that when Benteen says “yes sir”, she looks at Sisko.
I never did until this comment! Good eye
"Why are we fighting?"
"No idea. Those are really good phasers, by the way. Did you get refitted?"
"Yes, very recently. Thanks for noticing! And what kind of armor is that, little one?"
"Custom job. Oh, and I'm sorry if I wind up destroying you."
"I would say the same."
Waring within it self.
"You seem like a decent ship, I hate to kill you."
"You seem like a decent ship, I'd hate to die."
Defiant: I don't want to hurt you old timer.
Lakota: You won't. *Fires Phaser*
Defiant: *Charges Phase cannons* Suit yourself.
Right proper.
Bashire: You two get a room already!
Captain Bentene is one of my favourite one off characters in Trek. The way she's characterised and used in these episodes is really cool. They put her in an interesting position and manage to make her fairly complex with very little screen time. The way she hesitates and then respectfully questions the admiral is so well done. It's obvious she's testing him to see how far he'll go. Credit to the actor. I think she handles the part really well.
I think it was same actress who play Leah Brahms in Star trek TNG and she was also consider for lead role of Captain Janeway in Star Trek Voyager. Its shame that they cosider her as too young for that role. And funny is that she was also considered for role of Seven or Borg queen,
@@danielkubin3878 Correct Susan Gibney. Excellent actress, they could've put her in anywhere. Major crush when she was playing Brahms.
Yes!!
lets see here, an aging upgraded excelsior class ship vs the defiant which was designed to battle the borg, Worf really held back!
Bad writing at the best. Defiant should have shredded that 100 year old Exelcior class ship, upgraded or not.
@@jarilehtinen2909 Nah. Ever seen a sleeper PC? You can put modern components in an old beige computer, and it works just as well. There's more room on the Lakota for upgrades than the entire size of the Defiant. It would make sense if the shield batteries and phaser banks were upgraded, it could outclass the Defiant. Remember, the Federation was at war, and the Defiant is not new technology at this point - there was plenty of time to make the Lakota battle-ready.
@@jarilehtinen2909 I don't think there is any indication when the Lakota was placed into service, the Federation seemed to build a fair few of them during TNG and over time better materials and components could certainly be incorporated into a starship design.
Word also wasn't expecting a Federation ship to fire on them, though it was pretty poor judgement of him to hold back, especially when those events were happening.
So why not upgrade all the Exelcior class buckets? They have the whole ship that needs just new warpcore and weapons. Rest is there. This is just lazy writing.
@@jarilehtinen2909 or you dont actually have a clue about what it takes to overhaul a ship.
1:50......I just love the Defiant's phasers on that strafing run! The little Defiant is just the perfect definition of a pocket-battleship; small package but serious firepower!
Your name and profile picture makes me want to play the original Deus Ex again.
@@thundercricket4634 More a destroyer.
Little? (in Worf)
Well classed as a destroyer which in modern navy did replace battleships
@@wargodsix Honestly I always saw the defiant's as a Monitor type ship. just big guns on a engine
Admiral Leyton: Just fire on the Defiant. No Starfleet officer would risk a civil war over such an encounter.
Captain Benteen: Sir, there's a Klingon in command of the Defiant.
Leyton: Oh Fuck!.
Helbore lmaooo
HAILING FREQUENCIES OPEN, CEASE FIRE! KLINGON LIVES MATTER!
not just A Klingon sir, THE Klingon....the definite article you might say
@Erik Genesis Obvious scam is obvious
Actually in the 24th century, humanity has grown past the immature stage of swearing every other word. Some people never will though.
"Paradise Lost" (not "Emissary, Part 1," as incorrectly noted above) is arguably THE most important episode of DS9 -- of the entire Star Trek franchise. Why? Because it shows quite graphically exactly why the military should NEVER be in charge of the government. I never saw a better performance from Avery Brooks. I think he understood the gravity of the subject being discussed. Actually, everyone did a great job, from Brock Peters as Joseph Sisko to Colm Meaney as an ersatz Chief O'Brien. But the real star is the victory of right over wrong, of moral people of conscience over those who commit atrocities because they were "just following orders." I love the rehabilitation of Captain Benteen as she realizes that Admiral Leyton has betrayed Star Fleet and the United Federation. And what a chilling performance the very talented Robert Foxworth gives as the psychotic Admiral Leyton. In these days when we heap praise on going in with guns blazing, casually murdering innocents who "just get in the way" as "collateral damage," a re-viewing of this splendid morality play would be well advised.
I loved this 2-parter, and agree it is Hall of Fame Star Trek, and even science fiction as well. I remembered this episode when I enlisted in the military after 9/11, and promised myself I would do the exact same thing as Capt. Benteen if I ever got those orders.
This guy always lists every clip as being from Emissary.
DS9 and SNG always had great acting IMO. Avery Brooks was awesome.
Although she didn't get a ton of onscreen time, Susan Gibney is always a pleasure to see, imo. Same actor that played Dr. Leah Braums in TNG.
when? when have we ever heaped praise on casually murdering anyone?
"They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
@Cliven Longsight Your source being?
@Cliven Longsight Oh, good to know. Cause BF would probably throw up if he saw today.
@Manek Iridius Of course trying to rub someone's nose in it also isn't very gracious either.
Said the devious Dr Franklin, double agent for the British with a side dish of French. A true American, a foot in both camps. ISBN 0-086554-525-1 MUP/H395 MERCER University Press.
"Target their weapons, fire phasers."
Proceeds to fire photon torpedo at warp nacelle. Federation targeting at its finest.
They're not torpedoes they're are dual heavy phaser cannons since the Defiant was built solely for combat/warfare :3 x
@@thanellen8757 They did fire aft torpedo at the nacelle
@@Drake1701 yaas after the initial firing of the phaser cannons. So really there was no communication error. I don't see the problem with the scene as the torpedo could have been ordered off screen :3 x
To be fair, on the Galaxy class, there are phaser arrays on the pylon of the nacelles. The Excelsior class has phaser banks along the aft hull. The torpedo missing the phaser bank and hitting the pylon could happen.
The "gatling" phasers were always cool.
0:16 - Dr. Bashir's expression & pose, combined with the DRAMATIC MUSIC, are just so comical...
The Defiant lets them get in a ton of free shots and still comfortably wins. What a tank.
in my opinion, the USS Defiant would beat most, if not all recent capital ships, friendly or not, the weaponry, together with the vessels smaller size, I think it would be victorious against against any capital ship from Star Wars, and would easily evade the Death Star's 1 and 2, primary weapon, the crew would gradually, technologically take them out, from within.
not really winning if the other ship intentionally pulls away…it would have destroyed Defiant if she hadn’t chosen to let him through
@@bostonrailfan2427
The Defiant was pulling just as many punches and took 5 hits before defending itself. The Lakota was still the ship in worse shape.
@@redpillfreedom6692 The Lakota is also like, a hundred years old. It's like a jacked 60 year old Rocky fighting prime Bruce Lee. Did alright for an old Tub.
@@Christopher-ix8ql
There's nothing to indicate that the Lakota is 100 years old
"Tough little ship." Riker.
"Little?!"
You still know how to fire torpedoes right? :P
Eric Northrop you mean phasers
Probably I don't remember entirely.
Still stronger than that Luna class scrap called Titan.
Re: the episode "Paradise Lost" -- This is arguably THE most important episode of DS9 -- of the entire Star Trek franchise. Why? Because it shows quite graphically exactly why the military should NEVER be in charge of the government. I never saw a better performance from Avery Brooks. I think he understood the gravity of the subject being discussed. Actually, everyone did a great job, from Brock Peters as Joseph Sisko to Colm Meaney as an ersatz Chief O'Brien. But the real star is the victory of right over wrong, of moral people of conscience over those who commit atrocities because they were "just following orders." I love the rehabilitation of Captain Benteen as she realizes that Admiral Leyton has betrayed Star Fleet and the United Federation. And what a chilling performance the very talented Robert Foxworth gives as the psychotic Admiral Leyton. In these days when we heap praise on going in with guns blazing, casually murdering innocents who "just get in the way" as "collateral damage," a re-viewing of this splendid morality play would be well advised.
Interestingly, we got to see Robert Foxworth as a general going against his government for legitimate reasons in Babylon 5 a year or so earlier, and his appearance in DS9 led to his B5 character being killed off due to his agent double-booking him!
@@Bek359 I liked Bruce McGill's outtake in Babylon 5 when asked where General Hague is....he was like "General Hague...is on Deep Space Nine....it seems he was double-booked by his agent and there was nothing to be done" LOL :P
While I could agree in principle with the likes of Leyton and Admiral Marcus in the reboot that Starfleet did need more combat-ready starships capable of fighting in protracted wartime situations.....I wouldn't've tried to overthrow the government and make a military police state in order to make it happen
Robert Foxworth also later appears in Enterprise season 4 during a 3 parter about Vulcan. He plays Administrator V'Las, head of the Vulcan High Command.
It's a great episode, of course, but there are two or three that I find similarly terrific. For one, there's Far beyond the Stars. Or Duet. Or In the pale moonlight.
I do like how they used to pad out these battle scenes, I suspect for budgetary reasons: Between the fade to black and the cut to the scene on earth you have about a minute and a half of "battle", but if you notice there's only about 15 seconds or so of exterior ship shots, the rest is just the bridge crew narrating whats happening. How to stretch your special effects budget 101
90% of the battle is in the CIC.
Ever watched Battleship?
Sure, the Captain generates the tactics, but the CIC not only makes it happen, but has the ability to assess the battle FOR the Captain!
At 1:40 They tried spinning, that’s a good trick.
lets eject the COM PANELS those always blow up first in ANY ship ,,,,=^oo^=,,,,
Then Worf got the high ground
It really is a good trick in this kind of fight, if shields work the way they seem to. Rotatin extends the lives of your shields, since different projectors cover different parts of the ship and one may be fresh while another is weakened.
No one got the young Anakin Skywalker quote
@@Richardo_Falk Ricky Poon did.
1:32 O'Brien: "What'll we do, Commander?" (Mumbles) "Please don't say 'It's a good day to die.'"
Worf: "What was that. Chief?"
O'Brien: "Nothing. Commander."
Worf: "I thought so. PREPARE FOR RAMMING SPEED!!!"
Excelsior class is just perfect size to be highly mobile like ambassador or interpid , and still is big enough to be refited with more modern tech ,my personal favorite.
The original Excelsior was commissioned in Kirk's time, a good century (give or take) before this.
It's not my favorite design, but I can appreciate the longevity.
Longevity? That's a fact! The USS Excelsior NCC-2000 was still in active service I believe.
They're still making and using Colt 1911 pistols after a century. Sometimes a classic design is just a classic design.
I prefer the USS Aventine. I like to get where I'm going as quickly as I need to....and quantum slipstream drive is a Captain's dream!
The Excelsior-class was build to last, hence why it was even used during the Dominon wars.
The ship was build to be adaptable to most forms of advanced technology, hell even the original pathfinder model 'had' Transwarp before it was FUBAR'd by Scotty.
1:55 Notice Captain Sisko moves the phaser so its not going to be seen. Smooth work Captain.
I liked how in this two-parter, the audience knows and sees what Sisko knows and sees, and Sisko needs a bit of guile to figure out what's going on. That made the story very engaging.
Sisko is cool as shit
Shame that Benteen should have been able to see that Leyton didn’t have his commbadge, which should have raised an eyebrow, to say nothing of the “taking off the commbadge means taking off the uniform” thing.
Love the Excelsior class. So happy the Lakota refit happened to make them badass again
"The Lakota's carrying quantum torpedos, isn't she?"
Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
Kirk: come come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.
@@chrismc410 "We talked."
@@captain_misaki well the closed captioning from the film itself and novelization both say "be tolerant" that's good enough for me
Scotty, go back to your drink.
Oh no, not Bartlett and Ramsey, I'm gonna miss those guys.
It's fucked that people died so senselessly though.
@Simply Light Photography Exactly. Its still the red shirts. LOL ST tradition.
It is kinda neat that Worf said the names of the people who died. Really hammers the fact that they lost two crewmates in better than just saying that they lost two.
I hope Porkins is ok.
It almost sounds like OMG: they killed Kenny! In this case, OMG: they killed Bartlett and Ramsey!
I love Star Treks use of historical irony. You have a Captain Benteen commanding the U.S.S. Lakota. Love it!
Yeah captain benteen is beautiful
I don't understand the reference?
@@stars9084 7th US Cavalry Company Commander Captain Frederick Benteen fought the Sioux,and Cheyenne at the battle of Little Big Horn July 1876 with George Custer.
@@unitedwithbritian and lost!
Well, Reno and Benteen held out for two days, until the arrival of General Terry the next day caused the Native Americans to withdraw and flee the field. For Custer, not so much.
"target their weapons!" -randomly shoots whereever
to be fair, weapons do not exist solely on the saucer section. The Excelsior class has weapons all along the aft section of the secondary hull. The Galaxy class has phaser banks on the Nacelle Pylons. These shots missing and hitting the nacelle is entirely possible.
That Excelsior class ship looked like some really nice practical effect. It's maneuvering looked awesome.
That was the original Excelsior Class model built for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, it was later upgraded with addon parts to serve as the Enterprise-B in Star Trek Generations, unfortunately the glue that was used to attach the new parts to the model would have caused irreparable damage to the model upon removal, so they were unable to revert it back to it's original state, hence it's appearance in this episode.
Voyager would build a second excelsior model for Tuvok's flash back episode.
@@DelcoRanz93 not really since the only parts that have been replaced are the weapons and the addons are the warp upgraded warp drive as for the weapons the torpedo replacements would be the same Quantum torpedos as those used by the Enteprise E.
Models were still the go-to method of doing ship-to-ship combat at this point - the only purely CGI shot of Deep Space Nine itself is the tracking shot of the station disappearing into the distance in the show's final episode.
@@DelcoRanz93 the difference is the Lakota is an upgraded version of the Enterprise B despite the fact that using the same Enterprise B model with DS9 era weapons and upgraded warp drive tech appropiate for the DS9 era,
I dig seeing Sisko in TNG style uniform. Especially as Captain.
adam owen Federation took to long to promote Sisko to Captain rank! It was near the end of the series!
Sisko got promoted in Season 3 - hardly near the end of DS9's 7 year run.
He got the Christopher Pike Medal in season 6 or 7, maybe that's what you're thinking of...
"WE FIGHT!"
Do you really need to ask a Klingon what to do?
good, that's what the ship was designed to do.
TsutomuTomutsu, Well there was a small chance he might say “we go to lunch”
only when they're under attack :P
Worf's trying to avoid the natural reaction and think about it for a moment. He has going through his mind, "Would Picard try to negotiate in this situation? I might need to take that approach. Wait, they won't even answer our hails so that idea is out. Ok, fighting is correct"
i was hoping he would say
"We ram 'em"
1:30 you can actually see the shadows of everytime Picard said “stand down Mr Worf” flash in his eyes hue a moment there.
I love when Worf says "We fight".
If they had upgraded more old ships to the level of the Lakota, Starfleet would fare better in the Dominion War.
Takes time
Maybe over a few years. Starfleet had likely around 8,000 active ships at the time. The war was about to begin soon, and shipyards were busy building Saber, Intrepid, Steamrunner, Akira, Sovereign, Defiant, Norway, and Galaxy-class starships. Lakota wasn't as old as many of the other Excelsiors, so it's possible she was easier to upgrade to heavy-destroyer, or better standards. Older Miranda, Oberth, Costellation, and Excelsiors might be too expensive to completely overhaul. The older ships almost certainly had structural limitations besides just outdated systems.
The DS9 Manual suggests multiple types were being built with an average of at least 30% more offensive capabilities over their original specifications. Lakota is one of those ships most people quickly assumed was some crazy Starfleet Admiral's pet project, rather than a harbinger of what engineers were trying to do before war broke out. Seeing as they exponentially increased DS9's combat effectiveness within a year, this shouldn't be so difficult to accept.
@@Euripides_Panz "Starfleet had likely around 8,000 active ships at the time." The funny thing is that doesn't seem like a lot considering according the wiki federation space is 8000 cubic light years and The federations insistence on making multi role ships and not ships designed for combat and a good chunk of those ships being science vessels with minimal weaponry. I'm amazed they actually keep militaristic empires at bay.
@@tsdobbi Space Stations and Orbtal Defense Platforms, also most militaristic empires had roughly equal numbers or much worse tech. Hell with ROmulans heavily lacked numbers.
@@tsdobbi yea to me, starfleet has to have ships that number into the hundreds of thousands...
You gotta love the Defiant! Pummelled by upgraded weapons from a ship about 3-4 times its size, and yet the "tough little ship" causes 3 times as many casualties on the other side. Brilliant!
Well, there are several decades of technology differences between an Excelsior and Defiant class ships.
Excelsior class ships are just heavy cruisers, while a Defiant is basically Starfleet's " ̶S̶t̶a̶r̶ ̶F̶i̶g̶h̶t̶e̶r̶" Escort ship.
Cardboard Sliver Lakota had been upgraded with the firepower of a Galaxy, but at her core she is still a nearly century old ship.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial They mention the Defiant was also upgraded with armour, which is why the battle went the way it did. Without that.......they may have lost because as usual it took Worf too long to fire back. So the "borg killer" ship was so tough it could just barely beat a century old start fleet ship with extra upgrades. Typical star fleet military tech lol.
Little!?
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial
A century old design, but the ship itself isn't likely that old. If someone built a functioning car identical in apperance to my 2002 Camry, it would be a 20 year old design but the individual car would be brand new.
1:07 Well thanks for your valuable input, Tactical Officer Bashir.
Bashir: We're about to engage in battle? Best make my way to the Bridge rather than the Sickbay.
Well, since the first panels to explode are always on the bridge, it does kind of make sense he would go there . . .
I know he was briefly 'strategic operations officer' which means he has some tactical and security training. But Bashir is the sort who likes to sit around and inject his supergenius. Which he really is a supergenius! I imagine that makes him all the more insufferable when he injects his opinions.
I know you're going to think I'm being a nitpicker but he was actually made intelligence officer in "Soldiers of the Empire," when Worf was absent on a mission with Martok. That was after this episode. It had to be Bashir because he had an appropriate security clearance level and aptitude to access and understand the most secret intelligence reports from Starfleet... as a physician.
If one of the bridge panels exploded, it might kill him and then the rest of the wounded crew members would have to rely on the EMH.
So, I wonder if the Lakota and Benteen are references to The Battle of Little Big Horn. The Lakota was the one of the major Indian tribes at the battle, and Capt. Frederick Benteen was in charge of three of the 7th Cavalry's companies at the battle.
That's some serious history flex right there.
Captain Benteen's first name being Erika also adds some weight to this
0:16 - Worf posing like Kirk and Bashir posing like McCoy!
Leah Brahms looks hot in a Starfleet uni
Indeed she does :)
"Leah Brahms looks hot"
There, I fixed that for you ^_^
That actress lost a lot of weight.
Susan Gibney is a fine actress.
Totally agree.
1:24 “Let’s go, we got to get you to the medical bay” Well duh
Bashir on the bridge is like a fisherman at a river shore, looking for a catch.
@@Ryan_Winter Bit like Chief Engineers on the bridge, but that happened a whole lot too.
@@Ryan_Winter lol every chief medical officer
@@iamanevutable981 That's tue, McCoy was even worse, hanging out on the bridge without anything to do there for him, well besides having fits of baroque indignation.
Defiant's barrel roll while firing was one of most impressive fighting sequences in ST!
Showed how much more maneuverable Defiant was than the old Excelsior. Benteen only stood a chance because Worf was trying his damnedest not to kill her.
I love the top down view of the Lakota as the Defiant fires on her.
I agree, that was such a fantastic shot! And I love the parting photon at the end lol
@@hagamapama to be fair, Benteen was holding back too
Unlike most Federation starships, the Defiant was built for one purpose, to fight. It's so small because it carries almost nothing extraneous to that purpose.
I love how they upgraded the Lakota. Pushing old technology to its utmost limits, making an old class viable again. A pity those upgrades were first used in an act of treason.
The WW2 era Iowa battleships were reactivated in the 80's and refitted with modern radar and missiles. They participated in the 1991 gulf War.
The Excelsior Class is basically the C-130. Old Design, but infinitely modifiable.
Canon proof that the Excelsior is a very upgradable ship class. Given this upgrade and their service in the Dominion war, I imagine all it would take is a structural refit to make those ships viable for another few decades.
That class was still in production
You need to field test them somehow. Don't want to wait until the big war with the Dominion.
Susan Gibney (Cpt. Erika Benteen, Dr. Leah Brahms) is a beautiful and competent actress. I would have liked to see her in more episodes.
You and me both. She is a very beautiful and highly talented actress indeed.
Did you know Susan was one of the choices to play Captain Janeway in Voyager before Kate Mulgrew was cast.
mojojojo511 As we all know so well, Hollywood is uber-competitive. What about the rivalry between Jennifer Lawrence and Shailene Woodley, is there room enough for both of them?
mojojojo511 Honestly I think I would have preferred Gibney as Voyager captain.
albatani27 Mulgrew did a great job acting a terribly written captain. I;'m curious how Gibney would of played it.
O'Brein: What do we do commander?
Worf: Prepare for ramming speed!
Defiant is kinda like the Airwolf of Starships.
Except Airwolf didn’t blow up.
Indeed, like airwolf, she regularly picks on weaker ships and gets praised for that.
And she crumbles fast in the face of a proper opponent.
Like airwolf.
Defiant was more like Blue Thunder. Both were ultimately destroyed. Both were overt, intrusive, and sneaky. Both intended for impending crisis that didn't materialize when expected, but used at least once, on a nefarious mission against a political opponent.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial "Except Airwolf didn’t blow up."
Actually that's exactly what it did... after the TV series it got sold to Germany for a medical helicopter and it crashed killing all on board.
So the Lakota and Defiant both got upgrades without Starlfleet ops knowing lol
It's like sending an email to all. If it's not directed to you, you just ignore the content of the message. I bet they ignore a lot of reports from Starfleet captains
should rename Starfleet Ops to Starfleet OOPS :P
captains are encouraged to let their engineering teams experiment to improve their ships' performances above shipyard spec wherever possible. It's one of the reasons the Dominion, despite an enormous technological advantage, struggled against Federation technology as time passed.
Starfleet is nothing if not consistent with it's incompetence.
Just imagine if the US Armed Forces would do the same. XD
i wish they showed more of the fight, i like how its one of the very few fights the defiant actually has to show restraint.
The few she would have most likely lost
For some reason, I like how they gave the Excelsior-Class a moment to shine here. Elsewhere, it often gets lumped in with the Miranda-Class; being called a Red Shirt-Ship and all that.
Defiant: -"You're Federation, you're not gonna fire on us!"
Lakota: -"I'm Starfleet Security. I can fire on whomever I want!"
Defiant: -"I got ablative armor!"
Lakota: -"I got quantum torpedoes!"
Defiant: -"And I have your daddy on speed dial!"
Lakota: -"....... _touché!_ "
Even in the future, some things don't change. DS9 my favorite Star Trek show.
Here's a question: Did no one bother to look at historical records? Kirk's Enterprise was attacked by a "Federation" ship with Khan in command. If you're in command and an allied vessel says "We're going to attack you" and then comes with shields raised - Take it at face value.
No matter how much you've upgrade your ship. NEVER.MESS.WITH.THE.DEFIANT !
Unless you're the Breen
Joe Hayes The Borg might stand a chance.
@@joehayes9933 Or the Borg
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial the defiant was specifically made to fight the Borg tho.
You shouldnt mess with the lakota aither, eaven if you are the defiant
The Lakota should have been given more of a role in the Dominion war. With the refits to her guns and engines, she was an ass kicker. She could go toe to toe with the Defiant, which was Star Fleet's only dedicated warship at the time. She's one of my favorite ships.
equenoxe86 Yea, but the E postdates most of Star Trek DS9. It came in later.
Most likely still being built, the Enterprise D was destroyed just before the Dominion War.
Actually the Enterprise-E was involved int he Dominion War too according to the books. I think there's a book where the Enterprise-E helps to retake Betazed from the Dominion.
The Big E was considered basically a small fleet by itself, captained by one of the most experienced, badass captains Starfleet had on the lists, so it basically went around doing random important missions (it's canon - Insurrection has a throwaway line by Picard bitching about it at the beginning). And of course in the books it was an actual flagship.
didnt exactly go toe to toe, it got about 5 free shots off, used quantum torpedoes on the defiant, and had about 30 seconds to two minutes to destroy the defiant by the time the defiant began fighting back. by the end of the fight, the lakota was one good hit away from death while the defiant was roughed up but could probably push through it. not to mention only 2 people died on the defiant while at least 24 died on the lakota. this was far from a fair fight.
>"Target their weapons; fire"
>Fires everywhere except the weapons systems
Unfortunately the Defiant's not really designed for precision, since their phaser canons are fixed direction.
probably been Worf's lifelong fantasy to get to fire on a Starfleet ship
He did it before to the _Lantree_
This is how I see Starfleet captains.
Archer: no nonsense. He did what he felt was right.
Kirk: sly as a fox. Silver tongue. Heck of a right hook.
Picard: level headed, intelligent, diplomatic. A credit to the true priority of Starfleet.
Sisko: Bad ass. Tough as nails, yet compassionate. Family man, and understanding.
Janeway: Did what it took to survive, even if it meant blood on her hands. Made it her goal to get home, by any means.
Cardboard Silver I’d say janeways is a bit unfair because if that’s how you describe her then how would you describe ransom
@@adamking4538 very good point .
Cardboard Sliver And Worf would be exactly like Sisko, if not even so.
RIP Bartlett and Ramsey. May the record show they gave their lives performing their duties.
Legend has it that that Admiral got so angry with his loss that he went back in time 2 centuries, got a species change to Vulcan, and blew up the Starfleet embassy on Vulcan.
But first, he got shifted to an alternate timeline and became a General of Earth Force (Babylon 5).
0:16 Serious Bashir is serious
+Jon Lyons I always thought Alexander Sidig must have been told to really over play himself there. Like the director just went up to him and said "Right, everyone has a line except you but I want you to really show the audience what you're thinking." So therefore he went with "Shit's getting real, Worf... How you gonna handle this you smooth talking sonofabitch?"
+Jon Lyons -maybe michal dorn was getting some of nana visitor
+Jon Lyons OMG OMG OMG OMG IM SO HAPPY!
Jon Lyons I never understood why Bashir was always on the bridge he's the doctor not your tactical consultant.
Jaden Desveaux
He must had had some skill beyond being a Doctor. Remember, he was genetically enhanced. My best guess was that he was good with analysis and patterns. He was really good at numbers, so perhaps there was a statistical analysis position that he filled. I may be wrong, but, it could explain why he was on the bridge at times.
Nice fact: the Captain of the Lakota has the name Benteen, like Captain Benteen from the 7.Cavalry who was fighting in the Battle of Little Big Horn against the Lakota.
DS9 is the only show, movie, book etc. that truly showed just how dangerous shapeshifting/mimic enemies can be. Just 4 of them nearly brought the entire Federation to its knees. And the show did this in a plausible and convincing fashion. Every time something else uses shapeshifters I compare them to DS9 and they always come up woefully short.
Sisko: "Get here as soon as you can, The Presidents expecting"
Worf: "You want me to deliver the baby just like I did with Molly?"
Congratulations, you are fully dilated to ten centimetres. You may now give birth.
Hearing that you're fighting the USS Defiant is like hearing that someone's pissed off the Hulk, strapped a warp engine to his back, and then two nuclear bombs to his fists.
Normal Tuesday for the Hulk....
Excellent analogy. I often think of the defiant as a war hammer or battle axe as well. A devastating blunt instrument of destruction. There is nothing precise about her. Raw firepower for chewing up shields and starship hulls.
0:16 Bashir
haha loveit!! that was a good 5 second staredown...
lol it's the same actress that played the engineer on TNG. I love how frequently the same actors were used for different roles between the two shows.
Not Lt. Cmdr. Geordi LaForge, the Enterprise-D's Chief Engineer, but Dr. Lea Brahms, one of its designers. -_- You're welcome, lol
Gaeilgeoir that's who I meant, not Geordi....No thank you....
Vendrix :)
weyoun's actor had a really important character in enterprise
Cato Sicarius Shran the Andorian was one of the best things about enterprise.
Worf has always been one of my fav characters...- " what do we do commander? "- WORF - " we fight! "...fuckin A worf! fearless!!! ,,,,=^..^=,,,,
Just don't let him get in a fist fight with anybody.
2:03 Is that the same actress who played Dr. Leah Brahms?
+Alex Palmer Yeah that's the beautiful Susan Gibney, played both. Good eye.
Malfurion Thanks.
+Alex Palmer She married an admiral and entered Starfleet =o
Sviolinist Sounds more like starfleet entered her ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Yes she is.
I really need to dig out my DS9 DVDs and re-watch them. Such a good series.
0:16 - Anyone else find Bashir arms folded seemingly glaring at Worf there funny?
he's invoking the original bridge moaner- Dr McCoy
0:17 Lieutenant Julian S Bashir O.G.M.D. Original Gangster Medical Doctor
Only 24 casualties. Must have been those power relays.
"Ensign, how were you injured?"
"I was within the blast radius of a com panel"
They went through two bridge crews in 5 minutes.
"Are we making a run for it?" "Do we cloak?"
Here is an idea to avoid a battle. Go to maximum warp, and why the 80 year old Excelsior class is turning around and accelerating, drop the shields and activate the cloak. But I appreciate that the writers decided to show us some space action instead.
According to the DS9:TM in the 2370th, the Starfleet refitet the Excelsior class (along with the Galaxy- and Nebula class) and equipped them with a new warp drive. Those ships can go to Warp 9.9 after the refit. So O'Brien was right and they couldn't run away. The book mentions preparation for war against The Dominion as a reason. But I guess it is related to the TNG episode "Force of Nature". Otherwise it would have made little sense to completely overhaul old spaceships again. The younger Ambassador class was unfortunately not mentioned. The Oberth and Miranda class spaceships were already being retired. Now there is the Nova and Saber class as a replacement.
Well, my suggestion was to go to warp, and then cloak. It doesn't matter how fast the Lakota is with it's refitted warpdrive - turning around and accelerating would've taken at least 10 seconds - and in that timeframe, the Defiant could've engaged it's cloak, go on an alternative course and slow down speed to avoid being detected.
@@danielk5780 Okay, that would certainly have been an option. The question is how well the sensors of the Lakota and other Starfleet facilities can locate cloaked spaceships. The weaknesses of the cloaking device were well known since the first expedition of the Defiant in the Gamma Quadrant.
Your probably right with detecting cloaked ships. The federation was in a long cold war with the romulans and they likely had perimeter sensors (I believe they were mentioned in a TNG episode) to prevent a cloaked fleet of warbirds suddenly appearing in earth orbit.
And so, the only actual battle of the First Federation Civil War came to a close.
1:29 O'Brien: "What do we do Commander?!" Worf: "I'm sorry, have we not met before?"
I'm surprised they didn't equip the Defiant with a front-affixed pilot like on a locomotive since they gave it to Worf to command.
"ABLATIVE ARMOR AND **RAMMING SPEED!**"
Chief O'Brien is right for an Excelsior class ship like the USS Lakota she was tough to take on the Defiant. But both ships survived. Too bad we didn't get to see the Lakota use those Quantum torpedoes. The Enterprise E and the Defiant use quantum torpedoes.
During the Dominion War, Starfleet modified their Excelsior Class ships to fire Quantum torpedoes
If the lakota had fired quantums the Defiant would have been completly destroyed. Im happy the didin't
@@ilpoomatili9549 Defiant fired an aft photon torpedo at the end of it's initial run at the Lakota. We don't know if they used any of their forward quantum torpedoes, but I doubt it. Pulse phasers were enough.
@@Zero8880 if we count that quantums where the reason for ending it, they propably were not used. But Defiants attack was not enough, it stoped becouse neither where wiling to risk the others destruction
Back in the days when the VFX budget only allowed 20 seconds of actual space combat.
and it was glorious...
You know the Lakota refit version of the excelsior would have been very valuable during the dominion war
LETS UPGRADE ALL OUR STUFF AND SHOOT EACH OTHER WITH IT
There was only two of those refits, the lakota and the Enterprise -B
Never noticed it at the time, but the fact the Lakato's Captain was named Benteen is actually pretty hilarious.
Tough little ship.
Little? >.
50 person crew. Enterprise had lifeboats bigger than that.
mrbibs350 He was quoting Worf
wallycarrott offcourse its tough, it was designed to withstand a cardasian attacks and upgraded for the dominion war
it was designed to fight the BORG ...
Excelsior class, no matter how upgraded" wouldnt stand a chance against the Defiant. Defiant was built as a warship with more firepower and engine power than even that reinforced and armored hull could withstand ... it would run circles around Lakota, its shielding wouldnt be damaged by the weak power output of Lakotas warpcore and Defiants weaponry would just tear through the Excelsior shielding ...
i would believe that scene if they were facing Sovereign or even Galaxy class as those are either using top of the line tech or are able to be upgraded to the top of the line... Excelsior simply cant, the hull wouldnt support it... Unless you want to tell me the Federation took old ship, gutted it until there was nothing but outer hull left then replaced EVERYTHING inside ... which wouldnt make any sense, it would be easier to build a new ship...
Where Worf failed is that he didn't hail Lakota immediately until Benteen was committed to their actions.
saquist Yeah... "Raise shields, and hail them" should've been a logical command..
Oh well, guess he knew it was gonna happen, i listen to my Warrior's Gut too.
bulletcat139
Defiant took A LOT of hits before he made up his mind.
+saquist
It's meant to fight against the freaking *Borg*, so of course the Defiant can take a beating.
I just find it amusing that there is a Captain Benteen on the Lakota.
"Frederick William Benteen (August 24, 1834 - June 22, 1898) was a military officer during the American Civil War and then during the Indian Campaigns and Great Sioux War against the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne. Benteen is best known for being in command of a battalion (Companies D, H,& K) of the 7th U. S. Cavalry at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in late June, 1876."
I was thinking the same thing. No all we need is a Commander Reno and Admiral Custer.
You newer know how history repeatet itself. Compare the Romans general who died by battle on Cannae of the Kartagians Hanibal, have the same name as the Germany general who losse in Stalingrad. Consul general Paulus. :-)
Probably an intentional bit by the writers.
hdhale2 That’s likely intentional. The three admirals in Enterprise were named for the actors of TOS.
There is also an Excelsior Class Starship U.S.S. Crazy Horse.
Bashir standing there near the captains chair looking serious with his arms folded even though he has no reason to be on the bridge... Feels liked he just decided to channel McCoy that day.
Captain Benteen is hot!
Yes, I thought she looked familiar.
That was her
She looks like a high school kid
Smoking hot!
"we fight!"
I love the way he said that!
It’s good Capt Benteen disobeyed orders. Close scrutiny of history shows the other Capt Benteen should have followed his orders a little closer.
1:08 - Well done Doc, I'm sure Worf was desperately waiting for your input on the tactical situation.
I kitted my default defiant in STO with my this loadout and I was very impressed. 2 Heavy phaser cannons. One phaser strip, quantum torpedo.
Then I unlocked my Sovereign class and it only got better.
I haven't played in years. I did enjoy it though.
The Defiant was kicking the Lakota’s ass, I was really fond of that little ship😜
they always underpowered it, it should have wiped the Lakota out with little problem, the first and only warship Starfleet made at the time and was designed to kill Borg cubes, also it had quantum torpedos from the start aswell as phasers designed to shoot through even shields that learned.
I remember when this happened.
The number of injured on the Lakota was underreported.
I mean it was probably a first report so there could have been more 🤔😂
These two episodes back to back are 2 of Star Trek's best 2 part ones
Everyone's talking about how hot the Captain of the Lakota is, and to give them credit, she is. But what we really should be talking about is the Refitted Excelsior-class Heavy Cruiser. Now that's an attractive ship.
I love how the dr has a say as to whether or not to lower shields and cloak or not.
“Target their weapons, fire phasers” then I see photon a torpedo going directly at a warp nacelle. Lol
with a phaser sound
Starfleet really needs to invest in surge protectors.
Benteen was pretty hot as far as starfleet captains go
I bet she had some whips in her quarter
@Jay Turan she lost a lot of weight between the two appearances.