The Sonic Reference Problem
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
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Get ready to Open Your Heart, because "danger is lurking around every turn" in this episode, where we Live and Learn the problem with references in the Sonic series. Hopefully we aren't Reaching for the Stars too much here...
---Table of Contents-----
0:00 Intro
0:29 Continuity
3:17 Discontinuity
4:18 The Reference Problem
8:18 Show, Don't Tell
9:21 We Have Our Own Styles
12:00 Conclusion
14:08 End Screen
Intro song by Hyper Potions:
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#sonic #sonicthehedgehog #sonicfrontiers - Hry
Have you guys Opened Your Heart to these amazing Sonic references? Or are you just about ready to Show Them What You're Made of? Personally, I'm about to Green Hill Zone Act 3 myself to oblivion.
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Please love my comment chaomix!!!!!!
personally,I'm living and learning from these references
I just hope they expand more of His World
I feel like Sand Hill right now.
Yo, CM! Remember the time?
EDIT: If you think these references are on the nose, then listen to Crush 40's Sonic Youth. It's "Sonic References: The Song"
talk about a low budget flight
bro im playing sa2 rn
No food or movies, I’m Outta here!
i like running better
YEAH!
*epic guitar starts playing*
sonic is just being inclusive to all the dementia-stricken sonic players by reminding them that it's HIS game and HIS world
IN HIS WOOORLLD
Kinda funny it's Sonic doing so. Man's main attack is literally using his head.
@@samt3412WHERE LIIFFEE IS STRONG
@@thickskinman IN THIS WORLD (HIS WORLD)
LOL
Sonic's dialogues in Frontiers:
- Oh God Amy, this is crazy, it's like that time I merged with Shadow to fight that gray hedgehog with Dragon Ball powers.
Amy: "yes Sonic but I've grown as a person and must strike out on my own. Next time. Not this time. But next time for sure."
Tails: "same"
Knuckles: "what am I even doing here?"
SDFSGDFVGDF SHUT UUUUPPP (affectionate) LMAOOOOO
this is like a luau at knuckles the echidna's house
It's anoying
@@superknuckles9567where marzipan was roasting tofu and everyone left to eat marshmallows at strong bad's but he couldn't start the fire
Honestly, all the references got too exhausting in the comics. It makes the world feel so small. The only reason it was more tolerable in Frontiers was because Sonic's monologs were rare.
Yeah, and some are cringy.
I've never heard them outside of internet clips
@@srcoeiu6100hence them being rare
The rng of this dialogues is some undertale fun variable kinda shit@@srcoeiu6100
Tho, Classic Sonic monologues a lot in JP manuals.
Hearing Sonic saying Shamar will never stop being uncanny especially since it’s my name
Maybe it's the Sonic lore equivalent to how some people are named Jordan or Chad, which are also the names of arab or at least arab-adjacent countries. It makes sense to have the arab-inspired location from Sonic Unleashed also be a personal name, in a way. That's pretty cool!
Eggsraelis have completely taken over shamar!!
Same lol
Why are you so uncanny
Hi there shamar
Green Hills looking alot like Sand Hill right now.
Woah the death egg seems this big ball of scrap can’t stay destroyed
Aw man he ruined my favorite spot
* *A plane goes flying in the sky* *
Sonic: "You know, this reminds of Metal Harbor..."
“This reminds me of that *low budget flight with no food or movies.”*
@@a-posetexturelessjoker1539 "This reminds me of that time I needed to *close my eyes and feel it burn.* "
“This reminds of that September incident in central city”
@@Door227 this reminds me of september 11th 2001
"This reminds me of WATCH OUT YOU'RE GONNA CRASH! AHHH!"
4:22 this one is particularly frustrating from a game design perspective. If I heard this out of context in a game that allows exploration, I would begin looking for a chao garden since the line is structured like a hint rather than a reference
to be fair, he says something like “nah, not the right climate” right after
kind of a slap in the face to bring up a beloved part of 3d sonic that hasn't been brought back
Common chao garden fan L, when will we ever win😔
@@robothing6531 i mean have you seen the chao gardens, indoor inclosures, on the shore of a beach, off by cliff edges, in literal hell.
the addon line seems more like "oh shit this might confuse players i'd better add an adendum" instead of just scrapping the line all together
Sonic making all the references in Frontiers during his monologues are leftover from the scrapped plot of him losing his memories after landing on Starfall. He was supposed to be getting his memories back at the time of the callbacks that he makes.
I like that argument tbh
Wait, they got rid of that plot?
That's what made Frontiers' so "mysterious" with Sonic losing his fire and being in a stranded island. And I wanted to play it because of that
Well if that is actually the case (which given some other things in Frontiers seems to be at least possible) would that at least explain why its so reference heavy.
I'd like if you mentioned the source of your claim.
@@robertlupa8273 No direct source, more of an educated guess based on how they heavily suppressed the trigger requirements for all the monologues he can spout and how the files for him acknowledging his amnesia are still in the game’s coding. 99% of all the lines he has about the past of the series wouldn’t be heard by an average player because they were suppressed or fully removed from being naturally triggerable because they scrapped Sonic’s original arc for the game: his amnesia. All the other references are ones he shares with characters in the cutscenes or the optional chats, because those are all meant to contribute to each character’s arc within Frontiers.
4:53 Ignoring the previous story is a bad thing, but focusing too much on the previous story is also a bad thing.
Like everything, there's got to be a balance
Yeah I feel like a lot of the references have been “hey remember when we used to be cool in sonic adventure? Haha too bad sonic 06 happened” like stop focusing on the past so much and focus on making something as good as it but moving forward. Sure make passive reference when it’s story related.
I do agree but its great for me since this is the first sonic game i bought so it doesn't bother me.
Feels like they're going overboard on the whole Sonic games and continuity problem. While I get it, we really gotta realize a universe where SA1 and 2 happen feel so weird being in the same continuity as Frontiers.
@@xenogen372 That's why they shouldn't have turned down the 2 worlds theory
@@UltraCenterHQ yea
11:05 Then why do people ask? Why do you care about what this guy says on a stream??
Flynn simply answers because the fandom is so obsessed with canon and lore and buzzwords
what gets me the most is how a lot of these references just don’t feel like natural dialogue, they make a reference for the sake of making a reference
when i think of a reference done right, i think of sonic heroes, when knuckles was in awe at the size of final fortress and commented how “the egg carrier is NOTHING compared to this!”
while this reference doesn’t serve much purpose in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t feel out of place because the egg carrier is knuckles’ strongest frame of reference regarding giant airships, giving it a good reason to be referenced. the way the line was written is also much more casual than “this reminds me of/this is like…”, which is more blatant sounding in comparison
EDIT: fixed knuckles’ quote
did he?? I remember egg carrier mention in heroes but with amy, not knuckles. If anything I think he did mention angel island
(or maybe I'm confusing amy reference to casinopolis??)
@@kero232 yeah, knux references the egg carrier. he does it after the second self-destruct button. the amy stuff i don't remember tho, so i might give that a look-see
@@sirhoopsalot7605 oh.. well I don't remember that one at all heh
It was final fortress, and I swear I remember cream response to amy (and also big) was something in the lines of "what? you (two) had ad avebture?" or "you fought before??"
I know it because heroes was my first 3d game, so those were questions I had when playing "what is that fight theybare talking about?" or a funny one, team sonic in hang castle joking with shadow being a ghost, I couldn't even understand that joke haha
@@kero232 Both Team Sonic and Team Rose have unique dialogue referencing the Egg Carrier in Final Fortress.
Knuckles about how this battle ship is even tougher and Amy about how it reminds her of the Egg Carrier with Cream being amazed that this isn't Amy's first attack on a giant Flying Warship.
and also in sonic heroes theres references as "bad" as the one in frontiers
"the jungle mushrooms on my island are not this huge"
"hey this casino place reminds me of casinopolis"
i dont mind either of them, but i just cant get how one is such a big problem while the other is just fine
10:28 Doesn’t he get asked these questions on his podcast though? By people who want this information?
It’s not like he’s just spreading this around for no reason, people quite literally ask him.
Yeah, people pay him to answer questions that aren’t even necessarily HIS decisions most of the time.
@@essycogany2738 indeed, most of the time Ian doesn’t seem to like the weird mandates, like money not existing. Why did Chaomix make it sound like they were things he personally believed in and liked? Or, why didn’t he provide any sort of video clip?
@@orzi_gami Ian has an unfortunate tendency to discuss the internal mandates as though they're lore, rather than branding decisions. We know that isn't the case, though, given how Evan was able to get away with working around mandates and having Shadow be tender towards a chao simply by hiding him behind a tree.
@@tonyhakston536 But the mandates are the lore, they are what dictates what the lore can and cannot be/do. It’s basically the same thing. If the mandates say money cannot exist, then in the lore, money does not exist.
Also, that Chao is in artwork outside of IDW. It already had some sort of connection with Shadow, so Evan isn’t really bending the rules there.
@@orzi_gami why are people still rolling with the Mandates thing? Ian literally made them up??
The "no money" thing probably means "no traditional currency" as in cash or coins.
Considering how in flux the rings to item ratio is from game to game it seems accurate from a certain POV
Yet it"s dumb.
Surprisingly this mandate also restricts rings being used as currency, Tyson Hesse was asked this because of the Team Sonic Racing Animation and he did confirm that this was a mandate and couldn’t portray the usage of money. So this isn’t an “Ian Flynn made this up” thing
@@Shxnon It is fucking stupid, tho.
@@ChiefMedicPururu Yeah i’m not saying it isn’t lol i’m just pointing out that these choices aren’t always Ian’s like people make it out to be
Sonic: "Oh man Tails, this is worse than that time I ended up in Subspace in Super Smash Bros. Brawl!"
XD😂😅
That Dragball art be hittin' different rn
😞
How many leprechauns can I fit into a carpi sun?
Ohh god... Are people going to make that their entire personality now? This is going to be rough.
@@diegomedina9637 How many leprechauns can I fit into a carpi sun?
@@diegomedina9637 let ppl mourn
Ian Flynn runs a Q&A podcast, all the lore reveals he said were directly asked to him.
Casually revealing internal mandates is stupid
@@chaomix Why? I don't disagree (yet) but I want to know why that's stupid. I feel just mentioning they exist and not elaborating would leave a lot of fans sort of frustrated or confused? (especially with how the mandates treat Shadow)
@@chaomixso is saying shadow 05 when he only has one game and you don’t need to say shadow 05 to reference a game when he only has one game the way you talk about it will obviously make it easy to differentiate the two
He also said that the Sticks mention was him putting that in as a sort of stress test to see how much SEGA would allow him to get away with.
@@zame-osomething5096The mandates are just guidelines for the writers, but there’s no reason to stifle the imagination of fans unnecessarily. The mandates are also subject to change over the years, so revealing them takes away some of the flexibility of altering them down the road
Ian did not say only male hedgehog can go super that was izuka. That was funny enough what the super knuckles line in frontiers is tried to say "maybe super knuckles is Canon" because knuckles say IF HE WAS SUPER KNUCKLES as if tried to go super for the first time or he meant like he did it before. And also fun fact kishimoto never heard of the male hedgehog go super ever he just don't know what gameplay that would offer
I would like to believe Knuckles was referring to *if* he could actually unlock a super form. It could be easily interpreted that Super Tails and Knuckles are just there so that you don't feel lesser when playing as them with all 7 emeralds. It's why Sonic gets the actual design change and the final boss while they get a change in hue. In truth I've never minded the idea of Chaos powers being restricted because it makes them more special. Shadow and the Biolizard were created with the ability to manipulate Chaos energy subtly jabbing at the fact that it isn't natural. I just hate the way Izuka framed it because it sounds dumb and technically leaves out one character who can naturally manipulate Chaos Energy. Chaos. Perfect Chaos can only come about when using the 7 Chaos Emeralds. Technically it's Super Chaos.
@@castform7Knuckles is guardian of the master emerald and had the ability to force sonic out of his super form, if anyone should be able to go super it's him.
@@Substantial-hf1rm I feel like it can be argued that Knuckles only has that relationship with the Master Emerald and just because he can use the Master Emerald to neutralize the Chaos Emeralds doesn't mean he inherently has the ability to manipulate Chaos Energy. The opposite is also very plausible though.
Knuckles and Tails can't go Super in Superstar they just get super powers it's weird.
This whole video was Chaomix talking about things he doesn't understand
The reason sonic frontiers has so many references is bc it was originally going to be an anniversary game for sonics 30th birthday, but then it got delayed
still would be out of place even if it was
Where did you hear that from?
@@andreasmeelie1889 It was going to come out in late 2021 but then it didnt
This is worst then that time where shadow held a gun (cuts to shadow the hedgehog’s intro)
I honestly feel like the references in Frontiers aren’t an issue. Most of the “empty” references people dislike are either environment-related open-world dialogue which need very specific triggers to activate or optional character conversations which need to be unlocked with memory tokens, and even then they’re both included as part of all open-world dialogue/side convos and are spread out across 5 different islands(not to mention how the Egg Memos, which at worst have much more plot/world-building-connected dialogue, aren’t encountered in the open world and have to be unlocked through Big’s shop); I’ve played Frontiers multiple times over and I’ve only encountered a handful of the “empty” “Hey, this reminds me of-“ reference dialogues while playing and had to look up videos to get the full compilation.
Not only that, the “mandatory” references in necessary story cutscenes are almost entirely purposeful to the plot. Knuckles says the Ancients’ ruins are exactly like the ruins from Angel Island, which make him desperate to protect them from attack in order to preserve a connection to his past and his home, and says the emptiness of the islands reminds him of how Chaos’ attack on the Knuckles Clan eventually led to him being completely alone. Tails talks about him faltering when Infinite attacked still weighs on his mind as evidence of his failures when Cyberspace hurt his mind by preying on his fears, while Sonic talks about how Tails has done plenty of awesome things that prove he’s capable, explicitly talking about saving Station Square, escaping Prison Island, and defeating the Deadly Six. Sage tries to convince Eggman to consider joining with Sonic to save the world by reminding him of their teamwork on the ARK and against Neo Metal, which Eggman tries to write off.
I feel like Frontiers genuinely strikes a good balance in doing references, and while some of the individual references can be corny and Family-Guy-cutaway-gag-y, overall most of the references are tasteful and actually contribute positively to the game’s story and world building.
Fair enough. I actually agree with many points chaomix brought, but I also think Flynn has done a good job portraying some story elements from past games while maintaining forward to new lore addictions in Frontiers.
I mean, can we even consider those empty references canon to the story? From how rare and random they seem to be triggered you could simply consider them as left overs from a scrapped idea. At worse, Sonic and friends only make a handful of callbacks during main plot related cutscenes (which to be fair for the most part does have proper context). If anything all of Sonic's random callback quotes are most likely leftovers the developers forgot to remove.
its true this person is just stitching them all together in a row to make it seem like its that bad in the game then use it to diminish everything else in the game
i see it as a way of trying to connect the mess that is sonic's lore and i appreciate that
11:18 This isn't "lore", Flynn has clarified multiple times that these are Sega mandates, after people asked him why he writes Sonic characters the way he does. He doesn't just reveal this information for no reason. Also, you're straight up spreading misinformation regarding these mandates, like:
For one, you're wrong about currency in the Sonic franchise. It's been stated multiple times that while there IS money, it cannot be shown onscreen.
Secondly, Flynn didn't say that male hedgehogs "cannot turn super", that was Iizuka during a Q&A session at the 2013 Summer of Sonic event, which has seemingly been retconned, because Kishimoto clarified that he had never heard of this rule on his Twitter.
I generally feel like you're heavily misinterpreting these mandates; it's not "There was never AT ANY POINT [blank] in the Sonic franchise", rather "FROM NOW ON, [blank] is no longer permitted in the Sonic franchise". Plus, you have to realize that these rules were said BEFORE Frontiers, and the fact that "Super Knuckles" made it in there makes me think that they are slowly taking back these mandates. Nevertheless, I'm in no way dickriding Flynn, in fact, I agreed with most of what you said, but it really annoys me when people heavily exaggerate these mandates, falsely attribute it to Flynn and then get mad at him, all because they couldn't be bothered to Google it.
SEGA Mandates don't exist therefore almost everything you've said is moot.
@@biohazardbin Hmm, i'mma need a [citation needed] for that one. Legit, every single source (including the IDW writers) states that they do exist, but that they're either heavily exaggerated or some of them maybe even doctored by the fandom.
Oh, and also, I've read your OTHER comments left on this channel and I'll be honest, you come across as very toxic. You know the type: blaming Flynn for everything and apparently "cannot standing the Sonic fandom" just because Chaomix made a video on LGBT Sonic characters? Seriously, grow up.
@@biohazardbinSEGA doesn't exist. Source: trust me bro
@@biohazardbinthey do exist, if they didn't exist and he was just spitting bullshit, hed be fired, other sonic writers and big names would call him out, he just wouldn't talk about it, and just pretty much common sense, this is a marketable worldwide franchise, there are gonna be rules and guidelines for how these characters are written and handled and just in universe things
5:16 “GREEN HILL ZONE ACT 3”
Bruh I have been looking for this comment I thought I was supposed to make it my self
Kronos Island sure is looking a lot more like sand hill right about now.
Imagine if they kept doing this but exclusively for Sonic. It could be like how Jacksfilms once talked about how being an adult is 'fun', because has hundreds of references going off in his head, where he either doesn't remember or doesn't even know where they came from. Like, Sonic is so seasoned with his adventures at this point, that he has a repetitive tendency to recall all the tropes and stuff. I'll incorporate this into my headcanon, but I think it would be fun if it was canon in the future altogether(or at least more people have the same headcanon).
The other characters in the cast can/should quit it, though.
It’d be nice if they referenced adventures we haven’t already seen; show that the cast has had other adventures beyond what was on screen.
@@rayvenkman2087 I know what you mean(things that were never even planned for a game in the first place) but I think some of that could become references to unreleased content, like some kind of minor lore drop that Sonic actually _went_ to Hidden Palace or other scrapped levels at some point(s).
@@BinglesP Or pull a Star Trek TOS: The Menagerie if we’re doing a wholesale visit to the past and actually show us a past adventure that happened some time ago. If they want to give us on-screen lore for say the early days of Sonic, they could adapt SegaSonic the Hedgehog where it comes before Sonic 1 and use it as a way to explore a Sonic before he met Tails with Mighty and Ray giving their perspectives.
If I was writing Pre-Sonic 2 Classic Sonic, I’d make him more like Sonic The Comic Sonic. Show us how he was then and have that highlight Tails’ importance in him becoming the Sonic we see now (Barring the Meta Era) by letting us see a much more conceited Sonic. It’d be a good way to explain why we didn’t see him Mighty and Ray again until Mania.
Frontiers to me gets a pass because I see it as Sonic talking to himself to remember better times while he's isolated.
Sonic doesn't mind going on solo adventures, but with his friends captured and having to fight his cyber corruption without any companionship besides an AI child trying to kill him, I think it's a great way to keep himself grounded imo.
Exactly, with the tone and mood of this game I think the quotes fit perfectly fine. And it's not like you're gonna constantly hear them, they rarely even play.
one important thing you fail to mention is that all these references are ENTIRELY exclusive to the non-japanese version, including the dialoge confirmation of sticks and tangle. yep thats right baby, were back in the 90s where the US and JP versions of the same games establish completely different canons.
for those wondering in the japanese version instead we usually get light lore expansions on the surrounding areas kindof like the vid demanded around 6:25
makes me wonder if flynn wrote the dialoges like that and they were changed for the japanese version, or did he write them like they are in the japanese version and they got changed by the US localisation team ... or did he just not write them at all ... or did he write both versions ... WOAH MY HEAD'S SPINNING considering all these possibilities
Flynn wrote it in eng & it got changed by the director who talked bout it himself before the game came out. They do this wit most of the eng written games
IIRC, the Japanese fans criticized the JP script because it was simplified to an extent and very light in emotion, compared to the English script.
“Overcompensation” seems to be the running theme with Sonic, regardless of who’s writing…
My favourite Sonic reference is from Sonic Adventure 2. Eggman wants to finish the Eclipse Cannon and Rouge gives him a lead on where the last emerald is, giving him a newspaper recognizing Tails for saving Station Square with his reward being a Chaos Emerald. It's simple, but still ties the two adventures (pun intended) to each other and sets up the very important plot point of that last emerald. This one nod is more tactful than most of the references in Frontiers combined, even the one *about* the Eclipse Cannon.
TRUUUUUUUE THAT ALWAYS BLEW MY MIND THINKING ABOUT IT
I always thought that Flynn was overindulgent in making his references when I was playing through Frontiers, but I never said it out loud because I didn’t think anyone else noticed.
Edit: Although, I do think that saying “Show me what you’re made of” does work as dialogue that actually sounds natural.
that shit looks like the battlepass
Yeah I was gonn say it does look like the battlepass
This is like the battle pass
Definitely the battle pass
That stuff look like the battle pass
Google, show me this guy's balls.
in all fairness for sonic's random quips, some of these lines were cut from the game like the babylon garden and sky sanctuary vibes ones, and you rarely ever hear them unless you stand there for 10 minutes, making them feel more like easter eggs i feel
All these references, and not one of them call back to confirm Black Knight happened.
Didn't that get acknowledged in Generations. Well he says "Rescuing genies in magic books" so if Secret Rings is canon why the fuck can't Black Knight be canon.
One of the Rare Kocos added in the birthday update has a sword resembling Caliburn on its back... It doesn't do much to confirm it as canon, but at least they acknowledge the game existed. :(
Are we just forgetting the end of the Knight battle with sonic going out of his way to use a sword instead of his own body as the finisher?
It doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things whether black knight took place or not (like most Sonic stories). I believe they ended black knight the way they did so the player could choose whether it really happened or not. Personally, I like to think Sonic made up the story as an excuse for missing a date with Amy, it’s funny and cute to me.
Sonic: This reminds me of the time I got into an argument with an evil witch about living forever versus living your life to the fullest after she told me to kill King Arthur.
I can't say it's a problem because after beating this game twice over, with my 100% run finished last week, I can say I heard almost none of the quotes you clipped for this video. I had no idea there were so many. Since I only heard a couple in my (checks) 60+ hours of play I think these are meant to be uncovered more like easter eggs and not consumed in bulk... also much like easter eggs!
I agree. If we were just talking about the cutscenes,okay, but if it weren’t for those video compilations I feel as if this would be less of an issue then what it’s made out to be.
Honestly, I feel like this issue is blown out of proportion because neither the lastest IDW issues nor Dreamteam has these references.
And Honestly they should come back
@@rocky-my5ck I mean it mostly did go down in IDW because Evan is now writing half of all issues and she in general makes less random references to the past than Ian.
You played Frontiers for 60+ hours. Pretty stupid
@@rocky-my5ck NO. GOD NO.
Man literally just asked "Why does Ian Flynn answer questions and reveal SEGA's guidelines in his Q&A stream in which people ask him questions about the series lore."
Ice??? That reminds me of ice cap zone!!!
8:38 Honestly it’s more likely that this a similar case to how Sticks is canon, but not the entirety of Sonic Boom. Just because Tangle is mentioned doesn’t mean that the IDW are confirmed to be completely canon, it just means that Tangle and possibly some other characters from the IDW comics are being brought into the mainline games.
Your assertion that Mario has no continuity between games is flat out wrong. Mario has a consistent canon (significantly more consistent than Sonic at that) with a wealth of continuity between games, and was intended to from the very beginning.
Firstly, Miyamoto does not see the Mario cast as a troupe of actors - that’s a complete misinterpretation of the quote (one which a popular clickbait polygon article title buys into, so I don’t necessarily blame you for thinking that way). However, it’s obvious in the original article that he’s not talking about the literal lore of the games here. He never once says “they are actors”, just that “to a certain degree”, he sees the Mario characters “like they're one big family, or maybe a troupe of actors”, in the sense that developers can fit them into nearly any kind of video game (be it sports, platformer, RPG, etc.). It’s a simile to demonstrate how he sees them as a developer.
This was echoed in a statement from Kenta Motokura on the development of Super Mario Odyssey:
Motokura: “…if you think it's fun to do, then it's within the realm of possibility. The Mario IP is so strong, you can take Mario, or a Mario franchise character, and put them in pretty much any situation and it makes it okay. […] Mario carries it off.”
It has nothing to do with the actual universe of the games. They aren’t literally actors. It’s an opinion multiple of the developers have about flexibility of the Mario IP. The Mario games are absolutely restricted by what came before and fit into a single wide, continuous world. For any other commenters who may not believe me, here are a few simple, early examples of what I’m talking about:
“A continuation of the famous Donkey Kong story. Mario saved the beautiful girl from Donkey Kong. And now Mario has chained Donkey Kong.”
- Donkey Kong II
“We all know Mario who saved the beautiful girl from Donkey Kong. Now he's back with his brother Luigi, working in a bottling plant, loading cases on a belt conveyor.”
- Mario Bros.
“The Mushroom Kingdom has been a peaceful place thanks to the brave deeds of Mario and Luigi. The Mushroom Kingdom forms an entrance to the Mushroom World where all is not well.”
- Super Mario Bros. 3
“After saving the Mushroom World from Bowser and the rest of the Koopas in Super Mario Bros. 3, Mario and Luigi needed to recuperate from their adventures. Together they agreed that the best place to vacation was a magical place called Dinosaur Land.”
- Super Mario World
I could go on, but I think this makes my point clear enough as is.
As for Dr. Mario, I know you only brought him up briefly, but he only further illustrates my point. Obviously Mario can’t be a certified doctor all of a sudden in a series with continuity - which is why he literally isn’t certified. Dr. Mario is not a legitimate doctor. Shigeru Miyamoto also reaffirmed this in multiple interviews, stating Mario’s doctorate “was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.”
This is constantly reiterated in the Dr. Mario games themselves. These are happening to the very same Mario who’s been on all of the adventures in other games:
“Hi everybody! I'm Mario. How's it going? Over the last few years, I've been involved in some pretty wild adventures. Now, believe it or not, I work in the virus research lab at the Mushroom Kingdom Hospital. Today I'm about to begin my research as usual.”
- Dr. Mario, NES/GB
“The doctor is in! Mario takes a break from his adventuring ways and once again dons his stethoscope for a new generation of germ-battling mayhem”
- Dr. Mario Online RX, Wii
In fact, the entire cast become “doctors” in Dr. Mario World to save the world from the invading Viruses. Once again, the titles aren’t legitimate:
“Mario and friends became doctors?! A colorful cast of viruses has Mario's world in a panic! Mario and over 30 of his friends have put on lab coats and grabbed capsules! Now they're ready to eliminate those unruly viruses. Dr. Mario isn't the only one on call. Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Toad, Wario, Waluigi, Daisy, Rosalina, Donkey Kong, Nabbit, Koopa Troopa, Lakitu, and more are ready to join your staff!”
- Dr. Mario World, Mobile
Mario Kart Tour and Super Mario Odyssey further prove this, with Mario being able to put on his Doctor Outfit during the races and adventures, respectively.
Sonics dedication to continuity has even been a challenge at times. Like how it was clearly established that knuckles was the guardian of the master emerald and they had to come up with excuses for him to appear in games that didn't involve the master emerald
2:51 Call me cynical, but the idea that Sonic's worldbuilding is on-par with big name RPGs is downright absurd.
And stupid
It’s always weird when ppl who exclusively play Sonic try to talk about other games
*Mario Odyssey references SMB on NES and SM64
chaomix: Holy crap this world is so deep it's like Final Fantasy VI!
@@kingplatypus3rd LOL
I agree, with the exception that comparing Sonic writing to Final Fantasy writing isn't that big a stretch.
im gonna be real for a minute. they need to stop referencing the chao. not that i hate chao, i raise them for fun, i adore them. but it's getting to the point where i see them everywhere and yet they dont bother addding them into a game that i can raise or heck interact with. at this point im about to say "Chao garden looking alot more like empty garden right now"
I did like the one line from Sonic where he and Knuckles are talking about the visions they saw and he asks, "You don't think these were like the visions we saw from Tikal way back when?"
"The boost pad in chaos island reminds me of the boost pad in metal harbor"
I like references to an extent they connect the games in a sort of way That is very interesting
Ah yes. My favorite Sonic character: Peter the Griffin
I honestly I feel like references to just Angel Island would have actually foreshadowed the origins of the island and the Ancients. There was moments like that in game, but because of the other ones, it feels unfocused.
I don't see a problem with this. It's literally just referencing the series' past in a better way than just Green Hill or "gotta go fast" which is Sonic's "catchphrase" which he's never fucking said before! I feel like the references in the idle dialogue and the actual cutscenes are like a well over-due paying of respect to the canon after all of the continuity was thrown out the window with Colors.
I do agree these references are quite corny, but the thing is: most of these are optional. In fact, during my playthrough, I never came across the optional ones, only discovering them a few days after I beat it. If they have to include overt references, I'd prefer it be optional rather than shoved down your throat, and most of the references in the main story fit well context-wise (besides stuff like the Dark Gaia mention lol)
Also, people who use these points to say "Ian is the WORST WRITER EVER!!!!! Even PENDERS WAS BETTER!!! BRING BACK MAEKAWA!!!!!" are just so immature and tunnel-visioned. Ian's a great writer, he just likes to flex his Sonic knowledge too much in my opinion. His Sonic is a bit wordy for my tastes, but it's certainly not as bad as the worst this franchise has had to offer.
He runs a Q&A podcast, not just a podcast where he just talks, he's answering people's questions about the series he is asked and answers where he can, he isn't lore revealing just to do so
tails just saying "green hill zone act 3" with no reasoning what so ever is halerious
11:17
He says many times these are what Sega and the lore team decides are canon.
He confirmed that Sega once had a human world and a cartoon world for Sonic around the Forces days. Until it was retconned back to normal. For example.
He only brings up these lore details only because his podcast is all about answering questions.
The references just make me think "hey, if you know we want things like a Chao garden WHY ARE YOU TAUNTING US WITH SAYING I WoNdeR iF chAo GaRdEN eXisT?!? GuH huH😊
It's all so patronizing.
Because it was planned but with the Game chaos doesnt fit
"Over-compensation" is definitely how I would describe it. I'm not a huge Sonic fan, but I remember there being a lot of confusion and frustration in the years prior to Frontiers, as absurd retcons started propping up. Like Classic Sonic being from a different dimension, or there being 2 worlds. These were pushed back later, thankfully, but it showed that Sega had no idea what they were doing with Sonic lore.
Sonic Frontiers basically said "hey, uhh... all of this is still canon. Very little has been retconned. We're getting this all back on track."
All those references feel like genuine attempts to reassure fans that these past games are still a part of the canon. And it also tries to drive confusion away by clarifying things that casual fans weren't sure about. Like showing that Riders is canon. I'm sure loads of casual fans thought it was a separate universe due to the different setting and artstyle.
But the way they went about it is just crazy. They addressed the lore issues, but did so in the most obnoxious way possible. I'm hoping that _because_ they over-compensated, the next game will tone it down and do more tasteful and relevant references... kinda like Mario!
Mario doesn't have an overarching plot, but there is still continuity and lore that people don't seem to realize. Miyamoto likened the cast to actors, but that doesn't mean they're literally actors. It's just a metaphor for how malleable the series is. The series can go wherever it wants and do whatever it wants. But there's still a lot of callbacks and lore, especially in the mainline games, which people don't seem to realize most of the time. Mario is much less focused on canon, but manages to be much more consistent than Sonic is. There are only like 2 major retcons in the Mario series, and equally as many plotholes.
I wish Mario would do more sometimes, but I'm also glad he's had so much consistency over the years. And I hope Sonic can return to its old continuity methods and get back to its _own_ consistency as well.
"Two worlds, one family."
Mario not trying too hard with timeline is the best way to do it. Video games are not movies.
@ikagura Yeah. The director of the Kirby series said that Kirby doesn't have an official timeline. Which shocked people, because of how lore-focused Kirby is nowadays. But it makes a lot of sense.
Kirby is quite similar to Mario in the way it is handled. The difference is that Kirby integrates the lore heavily into its stories, while Mario's lore tends to be in the background.
@@DaNintendude Although Planet Robobot clearly tells that it happened after Triple Deluxe I agree, Forgotten Land could've even be happening right after Return to Dreamland.
@ikagura I think there's a lot of clear hints that show when the games take place. It's just not absolute.
It's similar to how we can tell that a lot of Mario games happened after other Mario games. When they happened, specifically, doesn't matter. But we could easily throw together a fanmade timeline based on all the hints.
The game mentioning Sticks and Tangle doesn’t canonize IDW or BOOM, it just states that versions of these characters exist in this game’s world.
And I'm pretty sure these references don't appear in all of the foreign language scripts. I know the Japanese script dropped a bunch of them.
Exactly: The Chaotix from Heroes may not be the same as the ones from the 32-X game.
One character doesn't correlate their entire verse.
Might as well not mention them, then.
@@ChiefMedicPururu What do you mean?
@@ikagura If you bring characters just for gratuitous references and ONLY for fanservice, might as well not mention them. It does nothing good. And what if someone never read the IDW comics or saw Sonic Boom, yet plays Frontiers?
They'll be like "Who the fuck is Tangle? Who's Sticks??".
Especially since Sticks was never shown in canon until that. And she still didn't appear in a main game yet.
13:10 I'll never get over this beard
We finally have Lois sonic and Peter Sonic, lets get all the family guy members in chaomix thumbnails
Tbh, IMO I think it's petty to get mad at this since this only happened in one game Sonic Frontiers, so far (and maybe the comics idk I didn't read it yet) and all those references are mostly just filler dialogue while exploring the open world lol
I honestly don't mind these references. It's actually refreshing to hear Sonic actually acknowledging other characters; something that he's pretty much never done! The next step is to see him actually interacting with said characters. Like how cool would it be to see Sonic teaming up with Omega, or even just having a conversation with the members of the Chaotix (seriously Sega, they've been around since the 90's and Sonic has barely said two words to them!) However, I don't hold much hope that this will ever happen, because Sega still seem to be reluctant to do this out of fear of upsetting the "Sonic's stinky friends" crowd.
They are technically part of the series, as they appear in the comics, and I view them as legitimate.
Yeah that part about Mario... Nah I'd prefer it if Mario had connected stories and lore. The Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi series proved that it can work.
Or at least give us better worldbuilding because there's already so much unused worldbuilding potential in the Mushroom Kingdom alone, let alone in the entire Mario world.
nah, if "paper mario works" then thats because paper mario is its own thing, as any other mario game
You'rr trying to force/chance a logical nature of an almodt 40 years old franchise dude, fuck off, simply fuck off, kids these fays want everything to be super serious and connected and blah blah, well, fuck you all .I. respect what mario is, respect what he has been for 40 years. Yeah paper mario is wonderful, so are all other mario stuff, so go clap and praise paper mario for what it is, and nothing more
Mario strongest weapon is his flexibility. I started to realize, learn that recently, when I started playing game I didn't before, as an adult. "Man this franchise is beautiful, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT", if you force a continuity there then you fuck it up, you LIMIT things
it's like tards wanting nice and comfy superman to be egdy and super ebin serious, fuck off .I.
there’s plenty of world building inside the mario games already, mario’s a well known celebrity in all parts of the world.
mario having connected stories and lore would be nice but it’s necessarily not needed. having to listen to a toad give out a lore dump about some thing or character wouldn’t be that interesting.
I really wouldn't want that
faaaak, no
@@yggdrasilsaltar interconncted stories and lore doesn't mean lore dump -_- And nah, most Mario games are not connected to the others in any way.
The kind of worldbuilding they could do can be simple stuff. Like saying that the Sparkles in Princess Peach Showtime are a kind of Star Spirit.
It doesn't affect the story in any way, but it connects it to something else that was already introduced. But of course they won't do that.
Guys, call me crazy but I think this video may be a Sonic refrence
10:36 I mean, that kinda works. Because rings basically give you a shield. And I'm pretty sure people would want to get that if they could
if it's being used as currency, it's currency. grain and nuts have been used as currency while having practical use
@@smitty1647one is food and one basically turns you into a god till you lose it in your couch or something
I'm glad I wasn't alone in thinking frontiers' references were annoying.
I don't mind a reference every once in a while but i'd be better if the reference has something to do with the story or moves the story forward
I legit got exited when i heard these voiceclips ingame the first times.
I didn't see half of them in my playthrough though, even with S on every cyberspace and 100% steam achievements... still not gone back to do the multiple characters since the updates...i should.
REST IN PEACE TORIYAMA😭😭😭
Rest in peace Akira toriyama
"Why is Tails' character arc ignored in the 2010s?"
It was ignored in fucking 2001 for gods sake. Don't act like this is unique to only post-2010 Sonic.
There you have it
What do you mean? Tails fought Dr Eggman in sa2 multiple times. Including when he thought sonic was dead.
His arc in adventure 1 was a follow throughout. Hell, Tails only has a chaos emeralds in sa2 because station square gave it to him as a reward for saving the city from the bomb.
That's basic follow through.
@@infiniteoctopaw Tails cries out for Sonic to save him in SA2 when he dies.
When Sonic gets launched in that booby-trapped escape pod, Tails nutted up and fought Eggman one-on-one, under the presumption that Sonic is now dead, and you can't take that away from him. Heroes shucks his whole characterization, because the whole game was a filler episode. And then Shadow has him fighting Black Aliens on the GUN Helicarrier to protect the President of the Free World.
He's not the most consistently written character, because it's obvious that Sonic Team doesn't consider him all that important outside of being a legacy character, but there was at least _something_ there, dammit!
@@infiniteoctopawwasnt he like 8 at the time
I hope the next Sonic game has Sonic go "Boy,this is worse than the time I tried to save Pikachu from Galeem."
10:47
Actually, it was confirmed that this line has a double meaning. If it Sega doesn’t consider Super Knuckles canon, which they most likely do think is not canon, Knuckles is just saying what if he had a Super form.
If Sega did confirm it was canon, Knuckles would be referencing his Super form.
for the most part I agree here, especially when talking about Ian's writing style
However using the bumblekast as an actual frame of reference of lore and story is a gross misconception of what the podcast actually is.
in reference to the lack of money or only male hedgehogs going super, that was him expressing frustration of the fact that those are really dumb mandates Sega told him.
He was not making those decisions, nor are they actual lore reveals.
if you really wanted to use good examples of a time Ian has used the podcast to do a lore reveal, the best one is when he said sonic labyrinth wasn't canon. in which it was actually confirmed to be canon in the origins expansion.
since then he has actively shut down any real attempts at actually getting lore from the bumblekast besides some clarifications here and there.
I feel the reactions to the overworld references are a smidge overblown. They rarely play at all, and there’s so many of them because when they do play, there’s no chance of them repeating.
Stuff like mentioning Dark Gaia after a huge story cutscene, I get why people have issues. But the overworld references feel harmless.
Someone still wrote them like that though
I encountered them quite frequently, and I hardly played the game.
11:48
Ian has confirmed the references in Frontiers was just him testing how many references he can put in.
Something he criticizes himself for, for how many there were.
where did he say that? on twitter? on bumblecast? I want to know where to look for confirmation
@@robertlupa8273 On Bumblekast.
Hard to know what episode tho.
@@robertlupa8273 On Bumblekast. I don’t remember what episode.
if he did, I would figure he would, y'know....
STOP DOING THEM????
@@biohazardbinhe enjoys references and will add them if he wants, he just regrets putting so many and agrees some are kinda out of place
Sonic likes references lol
I just want to say that thumbnail is BRUTAL.
I like the references, I didn't even hear most of them. And I really don't think Sonic was being wordy with Surge, he was just being his normal cocky self. He has his own style and he won't change. I know a lot of people are frustrated with Flynn's writing and can't hold on much longer, but I will never let go. Hopefully he'll take the criticism and live and learn. I'm excited for what he'll bring to the table. Let him show you just what he's made of. I'll be hanging on the edge of tomorrow with bated breath. I like what he does with IDW as a whole. The way he crafted his world is such an interesting take on the characters. If you don't like it, well... It's not like compromise does not exist, you know?
I'm just glad the 2010s are over. And it's cathartic having a full-blown fan do some writing. There's so much potential in the future of these games. I just want to see the mandates gone. I'm defying your reign, Sega. Setting the stage for a hero's parade.
please.... have mercy...
Ah, no.
I hate & love this comment
@@nightlydata2181 I fly in the freedom of this kind of tomfoolery. You could say it's my sweet passion
Ian loves to write for the blue one, you know. But SEGA's obstacles always get in his way.
However, you didn't adress the elephant in the room of recent times: Sonic Prime, and the mess this caused for both fans, the series' continuity and Ian himself.
It’s a show for children, it ain’t serious
@@mredbadger I don't think you understand what I meant. The show has many continuity issues with the main series, yet it's apparently canon.
I think you're correct about the overcompensation. Ian was afraid to forget something and basically rapid-fired references. Over one or two games he'll get it out of his system, things will get sorted out with the new lore master, and we'll see much better writing. As for now, let the guys cook, because they finally do, for a change.
I mean he's been doing it since IDW started in 2018. But he wrote an amazing Sonic in Archie so yk if we get back there and please get better voice actors will be good.
@@CaptainF123 the first thing he wrote Sonic doing in archie was being happy to be back in a bunker he was forced to hide in during a totalitarian regime.
Or, perhaps he really does know so little about the series that the references are compensation for his complete and utter lack of knowing a damn thing about the franchise he's writing for?
@@tonyhakston536 ...uh, ok, so?
@@anotheryoutubeaccount5259 I’d hardly consider that a GOOD Sonic, let alone an amazing one.
Sonic hates being confined and he hates oppression. He would not want to go BACK to a place that was only made necessary because nowhere was safe from totalitarian rule after the regime’s fall, and he sure as hell wouldn’t want to celebrate his birthday in one.
I never got any of those lines of Sonic making references to previous games while running around in Frontiers, but everyone else seems to have had them spammed at them? What triggers them?
It's in a lot of the optional dialogue with characters.
To be fair, I actually don’t mind the frequent callbacks in sonic frontiers. The game was released at a time where Sega was really trying to reestablish what the current canon of the series is so it makes sense to call back to previous events as a way of saying “yes this is all still part of this universe”. Especially when sonic frontiers was making big changes to our understanding of the timeline, it’s good to reassure the audience that everything that came before still matters.
Did they overuse it a little bit, yes, but since this is a game that very much wants to reestablish things it’s good to get callbacks to the previous adventures.
Plus, there are one or two times where it does service the plot. Such as when tails compares the weapons on chaos island to each have a destructive power, comparable to the eclipse canon, or mentions that a single laser blast from the end was comparable to Dark Gaia’s strength. This is a good way to set up the end as a dangerous force since with a single attack it is already on the same level as one of the most powerful monsters sonic has fought and it can take hundreds of shots from the equivalent of an eclipse cannon.
Of course, references that help. The plot are few and far between but I think it is worth noting.
Was thinking of exactly this when playing Frontiers again, glad it hasn't gone unnoticed and just thought I'd put down my example.
SA2 references Tails saving the city in SA1, showing that he has a chaos emerald. This then becomes an actual plot point, Rouge chasing him down for the Emerald.
Sonic stories would benefit from more of this rather than "this looks like green hill zone!" in future. Happy the stories are back to being actually good again though.
I was absolutely devastated when idw was claimed canon especially because of the comics messy worldbuilding and how everything felt like a fanfic
10:50 he LITERALLY said this was a cheeky joke
Sonic: Hey Tails, remember that time Roger Craig Smith trolled the Sonic fanbase about leaving dah franchise? Dat was some funny shit, nyehehehehehe.
i REALLY dont get why those references are a problem, its not like past sonic games have done the same thing and that for most of those references you need to stay idle for 10+ minutes, its just a small thing that of course got overblown by the sonic community
Honestly, i enjoyed the references. it confirms to me that sonic actively thinks about all his past events/friends lol. add alot of character tbh
A few little mistakes I noticed. The thing with the male hedgehogs being the only ones able to go Super was said by Ilzuka, not Flynn. The panel you used at 11:42 has dialogue written from Evan Stanley, not Ian Flynn.
Ian Flynn was the only writer on IDW issue 50. Evan's ONLY involvement was the art for Cover B
as the person above said, ian wrote issue 50. you might be mixing it up with evan writing the next arc with surge & kit (issues 52-56)
The refenrences are fine in small uses, but Yeez the Green Hill pandering is insane
So basically Ian Flynn is to Sonic as Derrick J. Wyatt was to Ben 10.
Fan writers who write like fans and not professionals.
To him and some others, yes. To me and some others, no. It's good to form your own opinion
No no he has a point
This is like that one time Eggman pissed on the moon
I want a real sonic bible or lore guide with a world map showing where westopolis, metal city, station square etc are located in
That is never going to happen. If such a thing exist, SEGA could not recon to whatever scenario they want. And if the bible "rules" were broken, then the backlash would increase.
Izuka and Ian explaining Sonic lore outside of the game is the reason why I don’t take Sonic lore explained by them too seriously bc what they say doesn’t make sense or it’s just really dumb.
Tell that to Flynn's cult.
@@FloofPuppy While I oppose calling his super fans a cult do I have to agree that quite a few of them are really annoying in there stubborn believe that Ian's writing is without flaw.
Anything said by the officials outside of the games I take with a grain of salt or make my own judgement about. Usually they're either on the spot and not well thought out, plain stupid, or both especially in this series' Shakey, dysfunctional "canon". The way I see it, if a headcanon I make on the lore is more feasible than "the moon turned around" I consider it a success.
I will take into consideration outside sources, as long as they're NOT from the comic book writers. ESPECIALLY FLYNN. He has a high tendency to lie, one of his biggest being the SEGA Mandates.
I take into consideration whether or not it *makes sense within the story/world*. Or, if I must, just use headcanon. A lot of the things that are supposedly "canon" in the games is just minor nitpicky stuff. Like the Moon for example, I really don't care if the explanation is that you just can't see it or whatever. I personally think X made an OK attempt at explaining it so I use that. Whatever, yknow? Nothing says otherwise except for Izuka so whatever.
@@rynobehnke8289 Trust me, Sonic fans these days are akin to Scientologists. Truly dedicated, triggered if you call them out, and fuck, they may even fucking SUE you XD
I'm just glad I found the very few who actually criticize his work.
Like a Dragon: Infinite Wealth had a collectable system where you could visit locations and reminisce on past events with a picture of the event you recall. If Sonic games will keep referencing older events so frequently like Frontiers did, I think at least turning the references into a part of the completion process and going more in-depth beyond dropping names would be a good way to do so, making it feel more like players are being rewarded for knowing Sonic's history rather than just being reminded Sonic has a history.
5:09 This cracked me up
i get that it could be annoying but in my opinion we haven’t gotten there yet. i excuse frontiers because a) it’s the first time since the 2010s sega has cared about continuity and b) in my own opinion most of it was fine. there were some that were kinda forced but i thought they were perfectly fine 99% of the time.
As far as I'm aware, Ian isn't making those decisions. He didn't make the male hedgehogs super form mandate or the no currency mandate. He's just telling people about it.
Chaomix is just talking about stuff he doesn't understand
Shoutout to Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) for being one of the best examples of doing references in the series
I would like to add on the fact that they was hoping that the game would do well because they thought it was their final chance at making a good sonic game so i believe this was more of an act of desperation hoping the game do well
Because they was worried that it would be a flop
The references never bothered me that much, but the balloons drifting in from Spagonia line was WILD lmao
As much as I love Ian's writing for Sonic, I do feel like he puts a little too many references than I can take, especially lyrical references. I think it worked with things like the Knuckles prologue and the early IDW comics, as well as crossovers like Lego Dimensions and the O.K. KO episode (both of which he has NOT worked on), but for a single game, I think it was a bit too much. BTW, the 2010s didn't completely ignore continuity. Take Generations for example. It clearly takes place right after Colors with Eggman being lost in space with Orbot and Cubot. And as much heat as Pontaff get, they are the ones that put in the Robotnik line.
I can forgive Dimensions and Generations, as those games were meant to be callbacks to previous games.
"G R E E N H I L L Z O N E A C T 3" - Tails, 2024
Its so funny seeing this criticism I and other have had for a few years now reach somewhat the mainstream.
I enjoyed the video.