MIXING ON HEADPHONES VS MONITORS || My honest opinion on ACUSTCA AUDIO SIENNA, SONARWORKS & WAVES NX
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 22. 03. 2021
- MIXING ON HEADPHONES VS MONITORS || My honest opinion on ACUSTCA AUDIO SIENNA, SONARWORKS & WAVES NX
headphone plugin shootout?? Another new plugin release 2021?? Yes that's right, I created a headphone calibration plugin comparison with some of the most popular room simulation plugins including Acustica audio plugins, waves audio virtual mixing plugins, sonarworks id-reference & good hertz canopener. Mixing on headphones has become the norm for most home studio audio engineers and there is a lot of music production software out there that claim to give you the best mixing environment within headphones so you know how to mix on headphones in the modern era .. so lets find out the results!
I set up a headphone eq calibration test using 3 best brands / most common manufacturer models of headphones - Sennheiser HD600, Beyerdynamic DT880 & Audio Technica ATH-M50X. I tested each plugins eq calibration and compared them level matched side by side to see if there are audible differences between each calibration.
I also created a headphone comparison of the headphone impulse responses of the acoustically treated rooms modelled so we can measure just how the plugins create studio environment and ambience of a professional mix room.
In terms of the song I used my second single change which actually comes out tomorrow. Will be on my channel very soon including music interviews, lyric video etc etc and even a mixing multitrack session for mixing wednesday members and patrons.
So, as well as revealing the results of my youtube community poll I am giving an unbiased review of acustica sienna and also my honest opinion on mixing with headphones and if we should be using room simulation software to mix with compared to mixing on monitors in an acoustically treated mix room.
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What do you all think after watching this? What's your opinions? Let's constructively share đ€
watching now...
do u script your monologues, my dear friend Sir Paul III.?
how does Sienna compete to VRmonitor by Plugin-Alliance?
Nah.. Just go on a massive rant off the cuff and spend ages editing haha I akways find it better that way as your getting what comes straight out my head instead of pre planning what to say
Don't know why.. But I never tried out vrmonitor. Just completely forgot about it
FINALLY an Acustica Audio fan who is not a fan boy. Thank you for your honesty! I have been subscribed for a few months and will continue to reference you when others have questions you can help with!
Sienna has certainly been a massive talking point so far. Never seen so much distance between acustica users upon a release. I even had to hide another CZcamsr from the channel as he left a comment on this video saying I had no idea what I was talking about and was unprofessional. Turns out he was a sienna betatester and had 2 sienna reviews on his channel. Things can get pretty nasty when products are hyped so much after a release
This is the exact video i was looking for. Thanks for your opinion and all the analysis.
No problem. Thanks for commenting đ€
u have valid points. only concern is that when we talk about dance music/electronic music, that sort of music is also played in large sound systems, but using decent headphones with sonarworks and can opener and reference tracks would be sufficient to do a great job, not as precise as what would be in an ideal world, but u can achieve amazing results just with that in mixing and mastering situations.
Yo Paul! I just want to say I have huge respect for how you show up to these reviews. You could very easily cuddle up to our beloved plugin companies for freebies etc. but just end up compromising your reviews. Please stay the path as your honesty is a stand out on CZcams. Big up! đ
I always get anxious when I know my opinion will be controversial haha makes it worse as I only give myself half a day to edit haha đ
Thanks for the kind words though. I definitely shoot myself in the foot in terms of opportunities but I've got to stick to my guns regardless of which manufacturer may or may not want to work with me. It's swings and roundabouts. You can either take the easy route and pretend that your on QVC or be relatable to your audience.
Does kick in the balls though when you see other CZcamsrs getting gear and other plugins early prior to release but it's the name of the game. Business is business. People normally only want to give you stuff unless it benefits them. Guys like me never fit that category. Is what it is
@@PaulThird Your channel has become one of my favorites because it isn't bullshit. I admire your integrity and honesty, regardless of what the tests say. Lots of smoke and mirrors in the audio world.
New to your stuff but you just know you know yr tack. Good topic, cheers bud
%85-90?!?! I already agreed with you on "why are we so worried about acoustically treated rooms when most music is consumed on headphones anyway" but now it seems even more important!
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Totally agree re music consumed through headphones vs speakers and why not then also mix with headphones and the use of references and "stress tests" to stay in the "ball park". Only thing I'd add is the need to accept imperfection: consumers are listening all time in imperfect conditions even with very bad headphones. The secret is that the mind gets used to these conditions and the enjoyment is still possible.
you are practical strait to the point simple honest . Thanks for your advise and all your vids
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Paul Third, I know you are trying to make sure you donât âoffendâ anyone when you give your opinion on something, but you just donât need to âapologizeâ for or preface your results. We trust you. Thatâs why we are here. My friend, I walked into my first recording studio as a hired gun in 1976. Since then, I have produced and engineered in several ârealâ or âlegitimate â studios. I am not easily impressed, but I love your channel and your advice! I wish i knew that my little âlikesâ and subscription help you in some way.
I sincerely pray that you can maintain this channel for a long time.
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my duuuude! great as always. That thing you shared on the screen was surprising about the high frequencies in acustica where they dont correct any frequencies above 10khz.. making me think twice.. what are you doing to me my dude!!
Cheers man. Yeah I think it's to reduce headphone distortion or something like that but all the headphones I've used have been fine through sonarworks đ€
This is exactly why I switched to mixing/producing strictly on headphones. Nobody is listening in a professionally treated room. Mixes are being played on Headphones, Laptops, Small bluetooth speakers etc. I check on my laptop speaker, then my car before I send mixes out. Translates great for me.
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That's the best summery of this topic I've ever seen on YT. When you're used to comsume music mainly on headphones and know how great music sounds like on headphones, why would you mix on speakers. And vice versa: if you're used to consume music mainly through speakers and know how great music sounds like on speakers, why would you mix on headphones. Having popular and great sounding reference tracks is the most powerful thing. They sound great in every environment. So if you match them (sonicwise and mixingwise and loudnesswise) your mixes will sound great too.
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100% agree. Makes sense to mix for how the audience consumes the music.
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Iâve been mixing and mastering on cans since 2005. My main cans are HD650 and DT880. I ended up putting Sonarworks SoundID Reference (SW) first followed by Abbey Road Studio 3 (ARS3) or NX Ocean Way (calibration disabled). I put these in the control room of Cubsse Pro 11. I never mix through ARS3 or NX, but I activate them now and then, especially just before bouncing my mix or master. I always keep SW active both while mixing, referencing and mastering. This allows the master to translate really well to most listening environments. ARS3 and NX Ocean are really good for checking the low end and ambience. Plugin Alliance has a new gem called dearVR Monitor that really sounds good, more neutral than NX and ARS3, but not so good for checking the low end. Major problems with cans are fatigue and getting the low end right - SW solves the first and NX/ARS3 solve the latter. Acustica might be good, but I doubt it beats Waves and dearVR.
Don't know why I've not tried dearVR. I'm definitely trying it this week. In terms of the low end translation that's what I was using canopener for. Just as a reference every now and then.
Great Tip"
Another good video! I knew that C was Sienna! It was definitely my favorite, but I agree with you on most of the points you've made. I'm used to my headphones, so I prefer the SOUND of my headphones. It's good to use these virtual rooms as reference, if you need to hear your mix simulated in a treated room, but knowing your headphones is far more important, IMO. I own a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1190 Pro headphones and they rock!
I still need to find THAT pair of headphones. The ones that guarantee that detail and sound stage. I'm thinking Ollo as I've heard great things đ€
My bose have been great for the past 3-4 years but I know there are are better studio headphones out there
@@PaulThird -- A superb headphone amp, great clocking and a solid d/a converter is very necessary. My headphones wouldn't have sounded as good, without the right system. I hope you find THAT pair of headphones! lol
I'm also thinking schiit audio magni 3 for a headphone amp. Heard decent things about that, especially for ÂŁ99
@@PaulThird -- Nice! You can also look into this one on Amazon: S.M.S.L SP200 THX AAA-888 Balanced Headphone AmpliïŹer with XLR RCA Input. I got referred this from a cool dude on Gearslutz. I bought it and it sounds brilliant.
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I have been mixing headphones for ten years, and for the past year have been testing the different room simulations, and have always thought "can I get less room tones" because that's what im used to, and then when it comes to panning!đŻ feel completely blindfolded..
Iâve edited Sienna Guru to a way where it sounded like my speakers and then chose a speaker simulation from sienna that I like. That works perfectly.
Now I've got new headphones I'm going to see how it works with these
I have a $15k pair of Unity Audio Boulders for mains and a cheap, 7 year old pair of $30 Superlux 668B's. Some of my best mixes have been done 100% on the Superluxes with no speaker reference at all so you're absolutely spot on about mixing with headphones. It's honestly just a different thing to get used to.
Totally. It's all about being at one with your monitoring. If you know your headphones like the back of your hand then it's just about ensuring that you have good DAC. Same with NS10's and aurotones. Loads of people can translate well in them because they know them well.
I'm actually considering buying a pair of NS10's just for another reference as I've been told if it sounds good on NS10's then it's a good record đ
@@PaulThird Paul...another speaker that's way less $ that works like an NS10 (I've used both extensively) is the old radio shack minimus 7" speakers. If you get your mix sounding good on those you will have achieved a great mix. Way less $$$ than NS10's and no harshness ice-pick thing.
I bought sonarworks full version and a pair of headphones. DT990. I mixed using sonarworks on both my headphones and my Yamaha HS8 monitors with a sub woofer. The headphone mix when played back was bass heavy. The mix on my monitors sounded the best and translated great. I also chose C on you original post. A was Muddy and B was better but C was clean and full of detail. Although I agree an EQ curve should sound the best it's hard to argue that C did sound the best.
absolutely agree, i mix on Blue headphones and it got me a record deal in LA. i do everything in my man cave at home lol
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Completely agree with you đđ»
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VSX user here. I was debating purchasing either a set of headphones that Waves ARS3 had a calibration profile for or getting a Sonarworks calibrated set at the time that VSX launched. I agree with the sentiment that a single monitoring solution, like Slate did with software and hardware to match is the way to go followed by the individually calibrated headphones from Sonarworks. When I was using my Sony 7520's with Sonarworks average profile, there was a weird resonance around 700-800Hz that didn't show up anywhere else. From there I tried a lot of things and ended up using a custom EQ and GoodHertz Can Opener until I got the VSX. I've downloaded Sienna, but I only put a few minutes in on it for testing. I heard no immediate need to move. If they release a Sony 7520 profile, I will compare VSX vs Sienna/7520 for giggles. But mostly, I just need to work on my mixing skills. ;)
I want to try VSX out soooo bad đđ
After many different headphone software that i tried, Sienna is the best at the moment, especially if you don't have a good room and good studio monitors.
I think that studio monitors is necessary too, for stereo placement and feel the sensation of the track.
Sienna is a Game changer for home studio and travel work!.
I have listened some mix that i did only with Sienna, different rooms, different situations and speakers test and i hear the perfect translation out there.
Another important thing is Sienna Guru, you must setting correctly for listen you favorite songs how you want, is a good starting point
(Good room and good studio monitors is better , it is clear)
This is my opinion.
Nice video.I tried sonarworks and I really liked it but I didnt like that it connected like a sound card and I already have a sound card connected.
I used my Dt1990's on sonarworks and I didnt like it but on my Dt880's it sounded great. Imma test out Sienna tonight.
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SonarWorks and Waves Abbey Road Studio 3 on AKG 701 here. Great results
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I tries both Sonarworks and Sienna vs my actual speakers (Sonarworks corrected, in a treated room). To my mind, Sonarworks was the closest in sound (aware this might be influenced by the speaker correction), but I felt you could definitely work on Sienna.
You could work with all of them to be fair but it just depends on how your ear is tuned. Sienna is an average curve based on listening experience, sonarworks is purely scientific. They can both get good results but I personally feel that sonarworks will result in more consistent results across the board but thats not saying sienna won't translate.. It just won't translate as well.. as much. I get what acustica is trying to do to be different than sonarworks but it's whether it's actually the right thing for translation.. Very subjective
Paul.. You are literally the first person I've heard, that I respect that made such a compelling argument for mixing in headphones. It makes total sense though.. I just really need to know where you got the 85-90% number on headphones. I'm guessing it's lower than that. I'd guess atleast 20% alone is only listened to through smartphone speakers.
The 85-90% thing was from a music lawyer I know. He works in the industry but I'm not entirely sure what study he was referring to. He actually gave me a solid figure of 88% haha
"This rise may be expected to continue as the number of people listening to music
through headphones increased by 75% from 1990 to 2005 in the
United States. A 2008 European Commission report states that
personal audio devices are being used by an increasing proportion
of the population"
That was a study I found myself đ€
@@PaulThird That would make total sense in 2008. I'd guarantee that # is considerably lower now since the smart phone. The smartphone speaker is insanely high... I do however think there your argument is very compelling though and makes logical sense.. I'd still love to see you go get some time in a treated room with some Pre-1990 NS-10s (yes, it's true, they sound like shit) beacause they translate extremely well across any platform the listener is using.
Great point about the headphones...If 90% of people listen on headphones, I think it'd make the most since that it sounds the best in headphoens.
It definitely makes sense. I've had a few people hit out at me for these comments quoting that ever since mixing began it was done through hi spec monitors in an acoustically treated mix room but that was because music was consumed primarily through speakers. Cars, hi-fi's, boom boxes, radios etc it can sound great in a mix room through monitors but if it doesn't translate that well to headphones then there's a chance that nearly all of your listeners will think your mix sounds pretty poor and you'll be none the wiser. I remember when a headphone mix wasn't even that bothered about. As long as it sounded good through your speakers then it didn't matter that much about earbuds as they were usually crappy and it was all low quality mp3s but times have changed with Spotify, airpods and the price of audiophile headphones. The listening environment has changed. I still recommend in referencing speakers, car, TV etc but prioritising the headphones unless the way you mix already has great translation across the board.. Then keep doing what your doing.
For new engineering to the game I'd be pushing a good headphone setup. High quality cans, through good converters and possibly a headphone amp as well. Add in a bit of sonarworks and a room simulation for the odd reference here and there. Can't go wrong in my book đ€
@@PaulThird listening in headphones will nearly eliminate speaker crosstalk and acoustic ringing, but those are very common non-linearities when it comes to playback. Playing back on speakers bass will make objects in the room vibrate (like your body) at higher volumes, and high frequencies will be more localized so moving your head around changes the way the top end hits. Also speakers have cones large enough to play back bass frequencies accurately.
If you had headphones plugged in to the interface while you wore something like a Subpak you could get a good flat response
I think if people have a translation problem with ITB mixes then they're most likely not using saturation often enough (not so much as to make it buzz/crunch, obviously, but the early range of the drive that adds more backbone).
I just upgraded to big Sur and have been having stuttering issues with sonarworks, thus l stopped using it for now.
Did anyone else experience this?
The problem is that it is difficult to define what is a flat headphone due to our outer ear/pinna. Speakers are measured in an anechoic chamber with a mic, but headphones are supposed to measured on our ears. Most heapdhones measurement rigs have artificial pinnae (that are somewhat approximate/average). For example, in a raw measurement, there is almost always a boost at 2-4khz due to resonance of our earcanal. When you see a "flat" headphone response curve, then it is always someones idea of a flat response, there is no standard for this compensation.
I get what your saying. Very very interesting. That's always going to be the biggest issue. Human varience. Every person is made different and the listening experience in itself is unbelievablely unique to each person. The way your ear is shaped and then how that sound is interpreted by your brain and your overall perception. You can't possibly measure that haha
To stop my head from exploding I always think of headphones as an eq going on top of whatever I'm listening to. I completely simplify it to just an eq so if I see it like an eq then I want it to be as flat as possible so if somebody listens with an another eq the sound is going to be what the manufacturer wants them to hear. There's more to it than that but If I start thinking about the different in sound stages, build quality, conversion of DAC's, phase, etc.. Then my head starts to fall off a bit đ
Try Airwindows Monitoring. Hear your musical "parts" w/o having to have a loud external system. And for a fraction of what Sonarworks costs.
Great video. I love your accent.
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Just tried Sienna and Sonarworks. I think the headphone profile is great in Sonarworks, but it's so dry, it needs the room. Adding the room only from Sienna did the magic though. Or at least that's what gave me something closer to my current monitors. I'm not sure about the headphone profiles in Sienna yet.
I've seen a lot of people go against AA's warning that other headphone calibration software won't work well with sienna and still get great results đ€
Iâm a SW and dearVR Monitor user, have tested the Realphones by dSONIQ, and have tested the waves Abbey Road studio 3, and the new Ocean Way Nashville, and more important, have make several comparisons between them. Excluding the rooms emulations just to take in mind the fixed curve, I always thought that there was something wrong with me or those plugins, In resume they just took away the best of my HD650 sound and made it poorer, with a very noticeable lack of high end, no punch and yes... a little muddy. I know the HD650 are very flat headphones, thatâs why I bought them, but by using SW was expecting that little extra, but it never happened, they instead took away what I actually loved from the natural headphones sound (as said before). That didnât happen to me through Sienna, itâs subjective but at least in my pair of headphones it adds something that just by ear I can hear itâs giving me that extra, and unlike the waves emulations which makes you feel like you are in the real room, Sienna focuses that experience to the mixing benefits, instead just putting a room around you with all itâs reverberation, eq curve and fully binaural feeling. Subjective or nor thatâs why I prefer now Sienna, I mean, my ears told me immediately that it was what I always expected from these âmix on headphonesâ plugins. I hope that âextraâ feeling really traduce in something positive for my next mix, time will tell. Thanks for your videos, really cool ones.
P.S: your API console comparison made me sad bro, about the Lindell 50 đ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł, saw your video after buying it.
It's a very personal thing. I've never seen so much distance between acustica users on this. It seems like on some headphones people really prefer it but on others like mine it really doesn't work. It's really split opinion this one.
I listened to some big tracks on my headphone calibration through sienna and they sounded awful which told me all that I needed to know.
However seems like it's on a headphone to headphone basis with sienna. That's the problem with calibrating by ear. No guaranteed consistency
@07:23 when you mention "Spitfire" what are you referring to? (aside from the fighter plane and the Virtual Instrument company, I am unaware of other options... But am pretty new, so please educate me.)
Sienna - Volume A includes over 280 headphone emulations from the world's most famous brands that we carefully measured and profiled. Also, accurate models of 3 studios (Acustica's control room, HOG studio control room 1, and *Spitfire* mastering studio)
Agree with Paul here and strongly encourage people to check out Sonarworks demo alongside Siena before they make any purchase. Sonarworks have been in this game for a long while now, although watch out if your headphones don't do good midrange vs your monitors. I do my treble and bass with Sonarworks, and then I add the mid-range back in with my Adam monitors, that Sonoworks seems to cut out.
i've been trying out the B&K 1974 setting in conjunction with the sonarworks eq calibration and i have to say that records sound more what i would imagine them to sound in terms of mixing decisions adding that in. dont why i never tried it before until now.
@@PaulThird I did my first set of mixes on my monitors after correction using sonarworks. My mixes sound the best and I set the mix to -14 LUFS and loaded it to a streaming service and played it on my smart phone. TRANSLATED PERFECTLY
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I use a pair of Sennys HD600 as my main headphones. As for headphone calibration goes, I'd definitely use Sienna for listening to music because it sounds way nicer, but definitely not for mixing, I have other headphones like ATm40x and DT99o pro and they all sound very close to each other when run through Sonarworks calibration (and none of them are individually calibrated, just the generic calibration), they all sound boring and flat, the way they should be for mixing purposes.
That's exactly how I feel when I switch to sonarworks haha your right though that's a good indicator of the calibration.
I have both, I like them both
I used to mix on headphones. AKG 371's and I used Tonebooster's Morphitt to equalize headphones and other software to simulate cross feed, I went back to near-field studio monitors. Although my mixes sound good on headphones, the ones mixed on monitor's sounded superior.
Would you recommend Morphit if you donât have studio monitors or a treated room? does it actually work?
I use Sonarworks for speaker correction and the Acustica Reference for the headphone correction. Perfect combo for me. Mixes are translating better than they ever have after all these years.
What headphones are you using
@@PaulThird I'm using Sennheiser 660S. What I like most about Sienna is it doesn't give me a sound that I have to get used to while mixing while Sienna sounds good right out the box. I do like my Sonarworks on the speakers though.
@@ctatrains i thought sonarworks was headphone correction when using the headphone version????? :-)
You've got 2 versions. Headphone and speaker. The speaker version comes with mics and it creates a calibration based on on your speakers and also your room. Think it takes like 45 minutes or something. It tells you where to stand so the microphone picks up sounds at certain points of your room
I think pb has both versions
@@PaulThird i misread that. thank you senor :-)
Hi paul can u pls help me with, ARE mjuc and arturia comp tube-STA modelling the same thing?
Many Thanks
Nope. Mjuc (mode 2) is modelling a urei 176. Comp sta is a retro sta level which is a re-issue of the gates sta level. Retro re-issued the STA level but also the 176. Retro make them look quite similar so many get confused and assume they are the same unit
Nice - honest review and informative. i will not throw any cream puffs.:-)
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couldnt have said it better....why reference and make mix decision based on acustically treated rooms if you dont know how mixes done in that acustic room sound on other listening devices........Appreciate you Paul.....One thing i was thinking when you said it might create transients, maybe you then might want to keep the sienna plugin on a track when printing so that you dont loose the "detail".....that same high end you talk about with waves is exactly why i have come to be very displeased with the noise floor on all their plugins....while acustica seems to lower it waves does the opposite
youre the man Paul
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Anyone use Sonarworks, then compare to their monitors and the mids completely disappear whilst everything else is good?
The "flat" theory seems logical but until headphones have their own DSP it's unlikely. I have 4 pairs of studio phones that Sonarworks has corrections for... the correction "should" make them all sound very similar - it doesn't. Truly "flat" would be pretty awful to listen to... we don't hear all frequencies at the same level, so "flat" in headphones is actually not the goal - natural and accurate should be the goal... this will always be some sort of "equal loudness contour" (Fletcher Munson or Harmon Kardon). We choose one brand of headphones over another because they "sound better" to us... so, educating our ears by listening to tons of music is the best reference. As for checking the translation... just create a couple of EQ presets. Auratone style 12dB low cut filter around 100Hz and 12dB high cut filter around 8kHz. Car stereo style is hyped "smile" curve... +3-6dB boost low shelf and +3dB boost high shelf.
Could it be argued that the differences you hear after the calibration is due to the diffrences in sound stage and overall quality of the headphones? (components and build quality etc.. And also assuming they are 4 different headphones). I'm just playing devil's advocate here haha đ
I completely agree with the referencing though. I have been getting into the idea of referencing other mixes more whilst in the mixing stage. I was speaking to the mastering engineer about the direction of my new single and I was telling him what I was aiming for. Really I should have been referencing these tracks throughout the mix instead of using my own initiative. Ive got stuff like PA dearVR and I should be able to get the upgrade from reference 4 to soundID for free so really I should have ample translation references. I just need to remember to use them more throughout a mix haha đ
@@PaulThird Absolutely... you can't EQ a cheap component to perform like a premium component. The cup size matters (behave!), the foam and basically every component that makes the headphone. AKG, AT, BeyerDynamic and Sennheiser - they all have signature qualities, which EQ alone cannot tame. I have the DearVR too as it's the only plugin I've heard that actually puts the sound "in front of you" - like a pair of speakers. Studio B with ambience turned off sounds pretty close to my well treated studio space (with HD650s). You should check out the OLLO Audio S4X headphones - they will send you a pair to try out for 30 days for free (I'd be surprised if you send them back!). It's a good thing to "not' remember to use alternative references throughout your mixing... if your mix is sounding good in your main headphones, you need to trust it is good... the "second guessing" that emulated environments/speaker sims will create an endless cycle of tweaks. Trust the headphones you know best because if that's how you primarily listen to music, then that's how music sounds to you - and eventually your "ear muscle memory" will just push you in the right direction! đ§
Yeah I'm just going to do it. Been swaying whether to get the trial of the ollos for the longest time. Email getting sent today!! đđ§
And I also need to try dearVR. Why I've not so far is beyond me đ don't even think I've installed it from my PA sub yet đ
The correction should make them sound very similar (flat-ish), isn't that the point? Since they don't then maybe its due to differences in each individual headphone....I wonder if the phones are calibrated as an average across several sets or just a single example?
@@leroytakahashi The entire effectiveness of "correcting" your headphones is dependent on "normalizing" the different models of headphones. Flat in headphones is different that flat in a room as sound is "pressure". With headphones your ear is trapped in a tiny room with a big speaker at close range - so everything is seriously magnified. The shape of your ear has a lot more effect on the sound your eardrums receive than monitoring with speakers. So, even if Sonarworks analyzed 100 pairs of HD650s they'd only determine the "average" correction curve for that model at their test level. The correction software is only a single EQ curve, so it's only representative of one "average" listening level. So, realistically any software based headphone correction is just another layer of confusion for you to deal with - especially as you're not necessarily going to be listening for pleasure on your corrected headphones. My son is an EDM artist and has AT40, HD650 and DT880s. He only mixes on the AT40s because his 10000 hours of listening to music for pleasure are with those headphones - I'd give him a hard time about it, but his mixes are excellent and translate really well!
I've got my VSX today and have the sonarworks SoundID Reference studio edition, and have the DT 880Pro 250 Ohm. I tried the calibration for 880 and VSX in Sonarworks and they are quite different. Primarily noticeable is the bass. Which are felt 8db louder on the 880s. Sure the serial on the VSX are the most recent but I guess this regards more to the Top end. What could that be, that they are so enormous Different?
So you are using vsx Headphones with sonarworks?
â@@PaulThird Yes, that's also possible. there is a "VSX" profile. But there is no outline from which serialnumber-range it was captured from. In VSX you can select which serial you have
I wouldn't use sonarworks at all tbh. As soon as I started using a harman curve for correction it made much more sense. Sonarworks is a completely flat correction which makes no sense whatsoever. I thought it used to but it really doesn't. Just mix with the vsx software dude
i have a lot of the same opinions on this technology. I've used sonarworks for about a year and my mixes translate to other listening devices better. When using Sienna on Zero "surgical" I felt like it sounded like a more transparent eq was making the correction.What I don't know is if it's a flat signal. If its not I don't understand the purpose of the plugin. they have headphone models so i would think they are calibrated to be flat. Where did you hear that it was done by ear?
Acustica have put it out on many fb posts. Plus everything I had up on screen came from the CEO. It won't be a flat response as they don't correct above 10khz so it can't be linear. They call their headphone eq calibrations natural and sway more towards the harman curve so it translates better with their room software. That's why they state that other eq calibration software won't work well with sienna rooms. The EQ calibrations are tailored towards sienna rooms, not for full headphone eq correction like sonarworks.
Sienna is their own take on recreating mixing in acoustically treated rooms through certain speakers. They want you to use the entire suite and I don't think they actually thought so many people would care so much about the scientific approach to correcting headphone eq. I think the fact that people want to mix and match other brands and only use headphone eq calibration on a lot of cases has sideswiped them a little so they are kind of in a tricky place as they have created a plugin which is really only meant to be used a certain way.
However I've heard other mix sonarworks and sienna rooms and get great results but how translatable that is.. That's anybodys guess
I bought the Waves NX Ocean Way when it came out and I liked it but I just tested it against the FREE AA Sienna that just came out and I thought the Sienna sounded better. When I would switch back to the NX the vocals took on this hollow tone. It was very strange. Now I'm confused and will have to do some more testing. I should add that although both of them included my headphones (Shure SRH440), I would consider them pretty low end for mixing but I've used them for enough years that I got used to them. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Yeah, I like to flatten the headphone response with Sonarworks and then use Waves for the room simulation. I used to use Abbey Road Studio 3, but noticed it had way too much reverb, making it sound hollow, like you said of the Nashville version. But when I tried the Nashville version, the ability to lower the reverb of the room really helped. So Iâve been using Sonarworks and Waves NX Ocean Way Nashville ever since.
I should try Sienna with Sonarworks, if the sound is better than Ocean Way, like you say. đđŒ (Or⊠Sienna by itself⊠as Iâm not so sure it works with Sonarworks to begin withâŠ) lol
Now I've got new headphones I really should try sienna out again.. And also dearVR via my pa sub. Still never tried it đ
I have some decent monitors, but my room is less than ideal so I mix 90% on headphones, the same ones Iâve used for years. Iâve been a full time touring musician for 7 years, so Iâve kinda had to learn it this way. Iâve never worried much with headphone software, but what I do always do is multiple headphones tests. I keep a set of Apple earbuds at my work desk. When Iâm sculpting midrange detail I plug those in. Then when Iâm feeling decent I use monitors, then I bounce it and play it in my car. Then I repeat haha. Iâm not a professional mix engineer tho, just a professional musician/writer/producer
Realistic Referencing is the way to do it. It's something I'm going to try to push harder. Only reason I've not included more referencing is out of sheer laziness. On my next record I'm going to use a track reference via metric AB and check the mix on 3 different sets of headphones, car, TV, and also utilise some room software as well just for some room translation every so often just so I can keep the bass in line. I personally think I need to work better on my translation instead of working Intuitively.
@@PaulThird all the plugins we buy, and I swear simple mix referencing is the single most important thing we can all be doing. Itâs why I use my same mix headphones to listen to music leisurely, and actually mix on apple earbuds too haha. Metric AB is AMAZING. Takes a lot of guesswork out of it in seconds. Particularly dealing with low end because I donât have a great acoustic environment. I still struggle knowing whatâs the right amount, and itâs the one area where Iâll trust mixing with my eyes a bit against a reference
Headphones AND monitors. They both have advantages.. Check mixes on bluetooth speakers, tv, car etc etc. ...Then rejust things again in heafphones and monitors.
Think Slate might be very good! Thinking to get the Slate one. I also think most people listen on earphones these days.
Yeah I've only heard good things about vsx
Hi Paul, I love Acustica stuff, have most of their plugins but IMO VSX is superior to Sienna. I suspect that for some headphones it might be excellent but I only compared to VSX. I did some tests going back and forth from speakers + sonarworks (which I'm very very very very used to it :P) to Sienna and VSX. VSX overall has a better response. In today's update they fixed a weird resonance in Sienna but there seems to be some other issues. It's amazing how VSX can sound so similar to my setup, a bit of difference here and there but the depth, reverb tails, overall frequency response, low end are spot on. When I first tried Sienna I thought it sounded very good (still do) but after a while I decided to pass for 2 reasons: VSX gives me already what I need and CPU hit is a lot for this type of plugin. Well, if they update it further I might get it as well but sometimes people need to simplify things. maybe just one set of speaker/HP's makes more sense.
After some more testing I'm reevaluating my perceptions. Sienna is indeed an incredible software, it took me a few days to fully understand it. VSX headphones and Sienna software turn out to be a nice combination. cheers
I think with the right sienna eq calibration it can work really well but on my bose headphones it's really really off so it's not for me just now. It's very hit and miss from what I'm reading. Sounds great on some headphones and completely off on others. Maybe just a development thing đ€
@@PaulThird I understand, maybe they need to resample those. What I noticed was that with default settings I was finding Sienna too harsh, really off putting. After dialing the Q magic to the left I got a more linear response that removed those hi mids. One simple move was all I needed. Well, hope they keep improving!
I'll go back to it and try reducing the magic Q so it's fully linear and see if it makes any better đ€
man, lâm watching this video trying to understand little by little! I donât have any monitors or a treated room, and l mix on headphones strictly. What would you recommend me plugin wise to translate my mixes, for headphone correction?
Realphones and pro mix references
@@PaulThird okay iâm gonna try it! Do you mix with realphones straight with headphone correction only or are you mixing it through a room? which would translate better?
I mix with the headphone correction at its default and listen to mono cubes and the big room every so often just for extra reference
Iâm used to headphone mixing. I donât think I could mix with these plugins haha. I probably would reference them just as a check.
That's what I do now đ€
As a general thing, I've never really understood the whole flat-response thing, and I've always mixed on consumer-type speakers and headphones. I totally, 100% understand why you don't want little weird spikes and troughs all over the spectrum, but I absolutely do not at all understand why you want a *completely* flat response: you end up with just a load of mids and no bass or treble, and I'm just not used to listening to music like that - my brain just has no idea what a good mix should sound like through that - so consequently when I mix through that I always waaaaaaay overcook things and add far too much bass and treble and not enough mids.
I don't know how anyone can mentally translate that wall of mids to what it's going to sound like through a stereo.. surely it'd be easier to just cut out the middleman and mix through something that sounds more like what the listener will actually be hearing.
Problem is what the listener is listening to. All headphones have different eq curves so what sounds exciting in your headphones may sound dull in another. The right amount of mids on one headphone is anothers harshness. A flat response is all about ensuring that the headphone curve of your headphone isn't dictating your mixing decisions. By mixing flat you are giving yourself better chance of translation on other systems.
That way when you do your reference checks you can hear exactly what the manufacturer headphone eq curve is trying to implement. Headphone manufacturers don't make headphones to sound harsh so a good mix should translate well to any monitoring whether it be headphones, TV, radio, car speakers etc
That's my take on it
I think a combination product whereby the converter, headphone amp, headphones are equal and most importantly hearing loss and sound preference tests will finally settle the score.
Slate VSX is halfway there. Sonarworks sound ID is the other half. Without taking into account the differences between hearing loss and the shape of our ears themselves which a hearing test would handle, I don't think we'll get anywhere close to a reference until all of that criteria is met.
SoundID is still in its infancy but I'm very excited for the technology to be widely adopted.
Yeah an entire package would be awesome. Could you imagine a package where you got a bespoke pair of headphones with its own interface (like RME babyface quality or something), quality room sim software and also high quality headphone eq calibration. So you can use other headphones.
That's your winner. Really all slate have to do is team up with sonarworks and make a DAC and they are good to go.. But would cost like 3 grand knowing slate đ
@@PaulThird I would love to see RME team up with Slate and Sonarworks. We're both just dreaming, but you never know!
VSX is giving me the best mixes I've ever done.
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90% of people donât consciously listen to music anyways đ
That's actually a fair point haha my wife only listens to music when she's cleaning, working or driving. I'm that annoying guy that says stuff like.. 'that reverb is really washing out the bridge vocal.. And the compression on the Tom's is really noticeable"..
Paul....
What is it hun....
Shut the f**k up..
K... đ
I hear ya đ
Very true!
@@PaulThirdYes. But the listener will notice if itâs a bad mix. A bad mix is annoying. A decent mix is passable to the layman listener.... a good to great mix will increase positive reaction to the track.
In my opinion you left out a major point in the vs: To my knowledge playing back music over headphones is way more damaging to your ears than listening to the same perceived loudness on studio monitors. Having seen the effects of long time headphone use on radio engineers ears, I personally would strongly advise to use the monitors as much as possible and only resort to headphones when it's absolutely necessary.
That's a very valid point. However what if you listen at moderate listening levels through headphones? I remember reading loads of studio engineers advise listening at conversation level and actually mix quite quiet even though have monitors that can blow your ears off. I'm just interested as if you think about the amount of listeners you say use headphones daily for listening to music. Years of listening to music. How has that impacted their hearing.
Its a point I can't really prove or disprove but an interesting point none the less đ€
@@PaulThird According to this article here (kidshealth.org => earbuds): kidshealth.org/en/teens/earbuds.html , the smart way to use earbuds is to put the volume at 60% (which I guess is about where Android starts to tell you the volume is too loud, and which is pretty soft in my experience) for a maximum of an hour a day. Extrapolating this to headphones (which seem a little less damaging): If you follow the doctor's advice, you should then mix for a maximum of about an hour and a half a day, if you don't want to risk ear damage. Which in my case would render the method completely useless.
Regarding your point about moderation, yeah sure, maybe some folks might manage to mix at a moderate level and for limited amounts of time. And I'm guessing the more professional, the more moderate. But we all know how the human species record for moderation: It's pretty $hitty to say the least ;) I can easily imagine the scores of people sitting at home making music on their laptop with either buds or low quality headphones on a high level, who will have some serious problems around their 50th... completely unaware of the risks.
As to the consumer part of the story, well, it's a grimm picture, especially if you consider the cure: hearing aids nowadays are just another pair of fancy earbuds with a mic attached to them, and will deteriorate your hearing even faster. I guess weâll be stuck with a bunch of confused deaf people, who will not only be unable to understand each other on an intellectual, but also on an audible level.
All we can hope for is serious progress in the area of acoustic implants if you ask me. :)
Stuck with a bunch of confused deaf people.. Brilliant đđđ
Give it 20 years and 10khz+ will be rendered useless haha yeah it's all about treating your ears as your equipment. Look after them then they'll look after you. I'd definitely say producers ears will be blown quicker than mix engineers though.. Those guys like to work loud!!
have you tried DSoniq Realphones?
Nah but I may do another video just on room sims and do this sienna and dearVR
@@PaulThird nice one, I'm hoping to get the Slate VSX at some point this year once I've got some cash
I was considering the monthly option but ÂŁ40 odd a month is expensive
@@PaulThird ay, i can't afford that and i would prefer one payment to own.
in my opinion - realphones beats any software on the market now
As a professional doing this for years for me sonarworks( calibrated from them straight)plus canopener still wins !
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I like Sonarworks. But how does CanOpener compare to Waves? Specifically Waves NX Ocean Way, if youâve tried those?
I compared them side by side in the first video. Sonarworks with canopener vs Acustica sienna and ocean way đ€
I just subscribed your channel for no reason
Thanks đ€
I listened to your debut single with monitors and it sounded very squashed. The headphones are too flattering for mixing and it doesn't matter if they are flat if they are compressing like crazy.
Probably cause it is. Tbh I made videos all about my dislike for it and how I could have done it better. No sonarworks at the time, used plugins that I wouldnt touch now and generally just not a very good mix, but I did learn quite a bit from it
Would've got the same result on monitors. It was my mixing, not my monitoring
@@PaulThird Well, Iâll be interested to see what you do with the sonarworks!
I couldn't imagine mixing on headphones, kuddo's to anyone that can get a good mix that way. I need a room I know with two multiple sets of speakers I know. Car check is really helpful as well especially with a system that isn't that great in the car. The only headphones I do use as a reference are earbuds to double check sibilance and a few other issues.
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Cool, while youâre at it, whatâs your favorite color? Favorite food? May as well tell us all about yourself⊠for no apparent reason.
I think it's a misunderstandig that your listening source has to be flat. Having a flat response in headphones does not corrollate with having a better informed mix enviroment. What you want to have is headphones that you KNOW - You know how they sound and how their curve is. I have a couple of headphones which emphasize sibilance just a little bit which informs my choices. An EQ curve is just a curve, which you can get to know easily. It has nothing to do with translation. I know that wasn't exactly what you were trying to say - just wanted to clarify :))
Tbh after all that I don't use sonarworks now đ€Ł I got new planar headphones and use an eq curve preset from an engineer I trust who uses them. It's based more on a harman but I've been really happy with the results.
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Remember to check out my autism channel if you want to learn more about my life đ€đ€
Sienna for rooms, Sonarworks for calibration
I would agree on that one from what iv heard so far but still confused as Acustica have stated that their room methods don't work well with other headphone calibration eq software đ
@@PaulThird Oh that I didn't know
I know.. Makes you wonder what's really going on under the hood đ€
@@PaulThird Well it makes sense, right? Sienna has algorithms per headphone to make it fit in their simulated rooms. If you use a calibration software ontop of sienna, then you're furthering altering the sound more than intended. Assuming sienna and the calibration software calibrate for a flat EQ by inverting the problem areas, 2 of them working at the same time would double the calibration
I'm still a little confused as Acustica have stated that they calibrate mostly buy ear.. Well the ceo's ear. So I don't understand what they have in the rooms algorithm (bypassing the headphone eq) that means it isn't suitable for headphone calibrations like sonarworks that reverse the exact modelled headphone eq. Especially if AA are changing calibrations what seems like weekly.. I don't know, I just can't get my head around what the diffrence in algorithm is haha
NS10s sound like poop to a lot of people...but it is calibrated to be a very neutral sounding monitors that will make almost any mix done on them sound good if they sound decent on ns10's....using the plugin in that way i think is exaclty when it is benefical...PS Sienna guru eats up literally 43% of my mac i7 laptops total system usage loading just one track up and engaging the plug in. Definetley not a plugin you could track multiple plugins running simultaneously with
I still plan on having a mono ns10 one day just for a quick reference. Not to mix through just to reference every so often.
@@PaulThird ya that is smart....make sure you get the sienna version tho with the grocery store included in it. Assuming that roughly 85% of music production is heard thru headphones, the way your mix sounds in a grocery store is absolutely CRUCIAL to reference before printing your final mix/masters ahahahahahah
If you listen in headphones, why you want your headphones to sound like a room?? I think the best is just to make your headphones flat
more for translation really. I try and use lots of references now just so I can have a rough idea of translation
@@PaulThird CORRECT, THAT IS THE IDEA, NOW TO PUT HEAPHONES TO SOUND LIKE A ROOM IS AS INSANE AS TO MAKE SPEAKERS SOUND LIKE A HEADPHONE, DONT YOU THINK???? AND IF YOU CONSIDER 80% OF PEOPLE LISTEN TO MUSIC IN HEADPHONES TODAY...SO MAKE YOUR HEADPHONE TO SOUND FLAT... AND YOU ARE SET
Yeah. I don't mix through room and monitor sims. Andrew Scheps had a great interview where he was discussing mixing through Headphones and he uses no headphone calibration and no room sims. He was discussing how many headphone mixers normally mix reverb and fx more wet as there is no ambience in the cans but he made a good point that if 80-90% are listening on headphones then your best to accommodate more for Headohones.
i just purchase a Slate VSX..
Let me know how you get on đ€
@@PaulThird i will be receiving them this Saturday...
Before any thing im just going to listen to alot of Music I like...
Wont start making music until i really sink in the sound !
Definitely will Mix & Produce on this Start to Finish since i dont have a treated room..
Make your mixes sound like your reference tracks, whichever way you like to mix. You can't miss if you can achieve that. Well, I suppose you could write horrible music and choose manky reference tracks. So there's that.
Hello
Have you tried combining Sonarworks before Sienna without the headphone calibration? Iâm really happy with how my Individually calibrated Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro by Sonarworks with some smiley eq in the new custom target in SoundID reference plugin and then dialing the setting in Guru and Spitfire with B&W speakers. It sounds great imo.
Acustica have came out and said that their room modelling approach doesn't work well with other eq calibration software so I didn't even give it a try to be honest
There is one thing I hate about people if they used to one thing and another comes out ever better they will still with popular one. its very pathetic people are like children copying others and believing others more than theit own personaly testing something. I test these plugins and they seem nothing to me, mixing with plain headphone gave me far better results. because I hear things more clearly without the EQ caliberate that cuts certain frequency off in the name of, I am making your headphone flat, but ok, now I dont hear the shakers as clear as my headphone and how can I mix when I dont something clearly;
Maybe will try again but these things are not promising just get a good headphone that produces bass mid and highs as clear as neutral, everything is vivid and then you can make a good mix, then after you done; now listen with other systems you have and tweak whatever may need, compare to other commercial recordings; but start by first of all listenning to good recorded tracks with your headphones as they are no any of these thing, then you will see how deep the bass and how crisp are highest highs and how the mid in that headphone a good 20 minutes os more than enough start your mix and it will beat the one you should have done with these gimmicky software just because they have fancy names and used by some famous people.
I researched the perfect headphone for several month, I ended up SRH 840A and no need to caliberate anything, except may just turn down the highs with a shelf eq very slightly like 1 or 2 decibels down slopping very straight not too curve your mix will be good very good;
If I make a hit and have people talk about it ill be the next thing.
But I hate hype or anything mainstream are mostly lies.
All the few videos about my headphone didnt really do it justice.
Thank God I didnt go for the, HD 600. 650. vErUm 1, dt 770 or 880 pro, not even the akg, nor the MM500 Audeze, any studio headphone enough bass as most of them lack bass, and if they are super clear and neutral unlike consumer headphones,
you can make amazing mix as mong as you do the things I said.
save yourself all the headache.
I just got dear vr monitor to simulate being in a room, the ones I tried dont let you hear left and right clearly, in the name of, oh its trying to sound like speakers where you hear both speaker with both ears, and then the steroe is confused, I tried till I gave tweaking Realphones and a few other ones;
I should just stop sharing it all here. before someone startsinsulting and most youtube commenters do.
Yes go get all the softare......thanks but at least am nice to safe someone months of researching.
I know out turn out to be things that are not popular
I've already saved people months of research in regards to mixing on headphones with videos I made last year.
You do not want to mix totally flat! That's a recent misnomer. Monitor designers have been perfecting how to tune monitors for decades! And totally flat has never been The objective! Yes you need to hear everything and have a sense of the levels of everything. Totally flat is not the target though!
Very true. I've been mixing into a harman eq curve for years