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Tesla Plaid - High Voltage Protection
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Here is the sequel for my first fuse video. If you haven't seen it, I recommend you watch it first:
• Tesla Protection - Doe...
For those that ask, the "High Voltage" warning sign in the title thumbnail reads "Not only will this kill you, it will hurt the whole time you are dying!". =)
If you have any questions, please READ the comment section first before posting, as in many cases I've already answered it.
If you like my channel and are feeling generous, you can support it with a small donation. There is a link at the bottom of my channel's "about" page here:
/ ingineerix
Please check out my other videos if you liked this one:
/ ingineerix
Definitely need a BMS video!
This! It’s where the magic lives.
Agreed!
Addendum to the arc-quenching-structure: In addition to cooling the arc, each arc-metal-arc-transition adds to the voltage necessary to sustain the arc as in the region of the metal-arc-junction a process similar to the stuff happening in a semiconductor-p-n-junction occurs.
So the traveling arc gains needs more voltage with each metal element it arcs between until the battery voltage isn't enough to sustain it, causing it to extinguish.
Is that because the metal has a higher resistance than the plasma or is it just the transition?
@@jor7137 It is the transition; In the plasma, there is a literal electron gas (as opposed to the "electrongas" in a semiconductor). This leads to a p-n-junction-like characteristic at the metal-plasma-junction, or in the first millimeters of the plasma, after the metal (so it has a voltage drop similar to a diode, but in plasma). I'll post more when I get back home.
@@jor7137 Addendum to my previous reply: In the region near the metal, in addition to electrons gettingn emitted, ions are also being emitted. But they often recombine with electrons to form neutral atoms meaning that electrons "get lost" in this area causing the higher voltage drop. In the main part of the arc this doesn't really happen. The German wikipedia article "Schweißlichtbogen" is pretty good regarding this, but I couldn't find an english equivalent...
I have been trying to revive a 2022 RWD LFP Model 3 and I was sure the HVP was being the culprit. While your video doesn't show exactly the same board, it is close enough, and we noticed that small fuse. I checked mine and it was blown, presumably in the crash.
Your video has meant that I now have the contactors closing, and it thinks it is a car again. Thanks and keep up the great work.
Keep it comin’
Awesome! I love the deep dives into how everything works. I don’t know of anyone else doing such informative videos on the inner workings especially of the plaid. Great work!
Hello everyone, this is YOUR daily dose of tesla teardown
Only ~$30? I've paid more than that for a Chrysler turn signal relay!
Your the new Big Clive. More videos the better!
I may not know much, but I can see the layers of Brilliance in that Pyro fuse!
The video of the wrecked 3 with the busted HV connector makes me think how smart having this tripped by the air bag system is, so that the HV system can be dead by the time the crushing reaches the HV system.
On the unit itself, it can handle very high current with that thick and wide bar, and it's wide enough that it gets plenty of cross section still in the notches to avoid voltage drop or heating.
I am amazed at the low price, especially when it includes Pyro in it, telling me that they really refined the design and manufacture of it to minimize costs. Looks like mostly injection molded and stamped, probably only a little machining on the bar itself. It slip fits together to save steps and fasteners.
The metal grid to catch and cool the arc and gasses is slick, as is the flow path to slow and cool the gas before it comes out.
The Pyro both mechanically driving a piston to use leverage to speed the tips apart rapidly, and also providing gas to extinguish the arc.
And all that for only $30!?!
The way it's controlled is just as nice, but the way they combined so much into there just impresses me!
I think it costs significantly more than $30. The previous gen pyro fuses go for $200 used on eBay, so this new one will be a much higher price. New belt pretensioners (also a pyro device) typically start at $100 on up for comparison.
@@TechnicalLee didn't he say in the video that it cost $30 to replace?
I suppose they could be subsidizing the cost, but why?
Also, the seat belt tensioner is going to have a Liability Tax on it, in other words anything safety related, seat belts, air bags, brakes, steering, etc, costs more simply because the company has to plan for expensive lawsuits if it fails.
They also require much more expensive and detailed testing, and have more parts and failure points.
This is extremely simple, not a directly life safety related part not something anyone will probably ever even know it failed, only one moving part and very simple testing requirements.
So if a 3rd party tensioner costs $100, I can see Tesla making this for $30, and probably with a profit at that price lol
I think this version is cheaper and simpler than the previous style as well.
@@ke6gwf The $30 was a complete guess on his part, don't take it so literally. He didn't look it up. The fact that you can't find a used one for much less than $180 should factor into your logic.
@@TechnicalLee what people sell a used one for on ebay, if it's not directly available from the manufacturer, has zero relevance to cost to manufacture, and everything to do with supply and demand.
I don't know what his sources are, but he may have a better source for pricing than you do.
He did say that was a new unit, and since they have to be replaced with any air bag deployment, it's probably something that can be purchased by auto body shops etc, giving a pretty good look at the price from Tesla.
YES on the BMS Video!! These are amazing!
I'm loving the 4K quality man. I'm glad you're growing and getting more views/subs
Appreciate it!
Definitely yes to a BMS video
that pyro fuse for the plaid is so cool... i would love to see a high frame rate slow motion of it breaking with a visible arc... the independent 12v on the BMS is also a great factoid
Superb video, thanks. The pyro serrated arc chute design is very innovative. It reminds me of similar heat dissipation designs in marine panel board air quenched breakers in the 2000A range.
Do a deep dive into the BMS if you can. That would be awesome
Great video. That's indeed a lovely piece of engineering. The quenching structure in particular is really somthing. Effective and yet made from cheap and availalbe materials plus much easier to design/control than magnetic chutes. Thanks for this.
"Good afternoon, Dave. Everything is going extremely well. I think you've improved your driving a great deal. Unfortunately, your payment to Tesla Inc is past due. If you fail to pay within 48 hours, I'm afraid I will need to engage the pyro fuse. Once that happens, smoke will be released. All the doors and windows will stay closed, and you will slowly suffocate as the oxygen level drops."
lol!
i see what you did there hahaha!
Love your videos.. Keep Em coming
The Pyro fuse is engineered and manufactured by Joysen Safety Systems
Great video, as always! Could you make a video showing what kind of safety precautions needed to work on hybrids and BEVs? I've heard mention of special gloves, shoes, and even floor mats that the car and the technician need to be standing on. A friend got rid of his hybrid car because most shops were afraid to even work on it. Thanks!
I don't think I want to do this. It opens me up for liability if someone gets hurt, and may encourage people without enough experience or training to take chances. I *highly* recommend anyone interested in working on hybrids or EVs take a HV safety course: www.sae.org/learn/content/pd291808/
@@Ingineerix what about flipping the idea, and make a video about the dangers, and maybe talk about this link? I only know enough to know NOT to mess with this stuff; others don't even know that. A video from your expertise on this subject might just be a key to making your channel grow as well, as a place for responsible EV work.
Weber State University - Automotive Program posts many videos related to EVs. Check out their CZcams video "Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and Tools" (CZcams will not allow me to post direct links to the video in this comment section)
@@KCautodoctorthank you!
I'm trying to avoid using Tesla parts beyond just the motor in my conversion because you need so many batteries to avoid voltage sag in high performance applications....... But man, there's a lot of excellent engineering and all these different parts they're using, I'm tempted
I doubt there is anything better out there right now for price per horsepower.
youll also need software to use those tesla parts.
Another great episode! Do you have a Electrical Eng degree or Circuit Eng? Must be a large number of EE's at Tesla... others.. Cheers
Yeah, I'm an EE. There's probably a lot of all disciplines at Tesla.
would love for you to a video on the electronic parking break.
Your content is fantastic thanks 🙏 So much amazing tech in the Tesla
I like it, so I liked it.
Looking forward to more bms stuff
Plus the piston will form a wedge in the middle of the arc path to help squelch the arc.
No, the arc would probably not even notice, a DC arc even at half Tesla's system voltage can easily jump that distance. If that was all there was, the plasma would just start burning the plastic and the combustion products would probably only make the plasma even more conductive. The point is to get the arc extinguished immediately, as you want to stop all current flow. The large quantity of gas from the explosive charge blows it into the arrestor at high velocity.
Keep ‘em coming
So the pyro fuse kills high voltage. Does the computer tell the driver what has happened or is it dead too. Also would rescue workers still need to pull or cut the high voltage loop or is there a way they could tell the fuse had blown?
Our 2018 Model 3 was rear ended and the air bags did not deploy but the seat belt tensions did. That appeared to caused the pyro-fuse to blow.
Yes, any accident that deploys any safety system will also blow the HV pyro, just to be safe.
Just advising you of my situation 2021 Plaid S involved in an accident with 3 seat belts discharged and WITHOUT ANY airbgags deployed and my pyro-fuse is fine. Last software update Feb2023.
@@Ingineerix
This is really interesting, proper engineering. Tesla getting better all the time. Huge thanks for showing us!
lol....
My experience from purchasing drive units from crashed teslas is that some of them have blown inverter. Whats your experience with this? Can the inverter survive a sudden battery disconnect at certain speed?
Older firmware couldn't handle this, but newer properly plug brakes to dissipate the energy. The newest ones however have a pyro in the inverter to disconnect the motor windings, so those will not be re-usable.
Thanks for a great video. Is there any connection between the pyrofuse and the PCS? I've just had a blown pyro fuse and a damaged PCS and just wondering what conditions may have caused damage to both?
If the HV side of the PCS shorts, the BMS will blow the Pryo.
Great video!
How much square mm the pyro fuse? It looks like no more 20 mm2. How it can handle 1000A???
my educated guess is that this is just over a short distance and the additional heat by that reduction is dissipated by the nearby thicker parts.
Also remember that regular fuses pretty much work the same way (reducing the gauge to make heat to eventually melt the wire), though the two latter parts are done by external stuff with the pyrofuse
Actually it can handle 2300A for a good period of time. See this graph: czcams.com/channels/31O6BEWzx4D--YPw9aJABA.htmlcommunity?lb=UgwM2XjcEX5K1CrrBwN4AaABCQ
that ruler is interesting!
Yeah, I wish the US would finally bite the bullet and switch to metric. All engineering and science is done in metric.
The only issue with this Pyro-fuse is that it is an active device. meaning that it has to be ignited intentionaly after complicated calculations and comparisons. Those could go wrong. Then the circuit is out of control. So, in this application, you still need your thermo fuse or other devices to interrupt the fault current.
No, I discussed the hardware in the video, there is no software in the fail-safe hardware overcurrent circuit. Worst case the pack will "zipper", but I've never seen this happen.
Wow!
Thank you!
i have P85d I will like to upgrade to 90kw battery new one or 100kw //. my 2 motor are sport edition insane the big one I believe should be the same from ludacris os just software ///how we know if the inverter went wrong ?? or when my battery pack is Bad on degradation!! my question is In the cluster tell you exactly which part is bad ??
No, not only does Tesla not give you access to diagnostics, your car will not run if you swap the battery to a newer type. This requires internal configuration, which must either come from Tesla (which they will not do), or from a 3rd party, such as myself.
@@Ingineerix Thanks 🙏. i’m just trying to find a alternative a backup plan when my battery pack or motor end the warranty time is one more year and i’m nervous… everything is working perfect all for now… Sometimes i thing that those software update we received AIR to air I think tesla can damage my battery on those firmware after the warranty expire and obligate me to spending money that I don’t have $$ …
always I let my car 20% or 30 is the lower and TOP is 80% or 90% once 95% those are my charge cycle sis think this battery can stay healthy 10 more years and the motor too
if you open a shop let me
know where to take
it 😂 i’m in Florida by tampa
@@Ingineerix also hoping Tesla can DROP the parts price radically cheap to be able get peace of mind …
Hoping also that he can made a aftermarket or OEM 4680 package that new technology for our 2014 be able to update …. we love our car is so perfect no dent paint is perfect I don’t want get rid off him I will keep it 20 more years 😂 if I can
if we put a née battery pack upgrade to 90kw is supposed to get a another 8 more years right ?? is supposed too
@@consentidocomunwithcommons7698 Best thing you can do is only charge the battery to the level you need daily, plus a cushion. You'll get a lot less degradation, especially in FL where it's often hot ,if you drop the charge level down to 80 or even 75%. If Tesla releases a software update that damages the battery, I'll be the first to report it. That would be very unethical!
@@Ingineerix Since we're on the topic of upgrades. Do Teslas that are still running around with thermal fuses have an upgrade path to the first gen pyro fuse, ether to the one that was battery powered or the revised one that feeds off of the current shunt voltage drop?
Hey Phil, love your hacks of the FSD beta admin screens. So what do you think? Are you impressed with what you see? I'm impressed with their progress but you are obviously looking under the hood. Maybe do a video of what you see and what you think?
Yeah, there's a lot more going on "under the hood" than most people would guess. Personally though, I don't see real level 5 autonomy until around 4 years, and then probably another 2 before the powers that be allow it to happen. Tesla FSD is not Level 5. Level 5 means, nobody in the car, no supervision needed. Yeah, Google is doing it on the Waymo prototypes, but they do have supervision, just not in the car, so I'd argue that doesn't count.
@@Ingineerix I have Beta and while it is amazing, it has a long way to go. Sometimes it can't do the simplest things under perfect conditions while other times it has driven confidently in heavy fog seemingly better than I could. Basically it is terribly inconsistent. Addionally I question if the cameras are adequate and placed properly to do the job. Lastly I wonder if any machine learning is capable of dealing with irrational human drivers.
RFP:
All control systems required to swap Tesla Plaid Rear drive unit into an ICE vehicle including driver controls and dash instrumentation.
Minimum weight battery that will still allow maximum performance on the drag strip .
Yes, I'm serious
Drop me an email. You can find it here: czcams.com/users/Ingineerixabout
for max performance with less battery weight you can simply rearange few battery modules and use custom BMS/high voltage systems
Is there any "manual" trip for emergency/fire crews to be sure the HV wiring has been cut? (assuming that Airbags have not fired for some reason...)
There is a safety loop that breaks HV and disables the airbag system. See this: www.tesla.com/firstresponders
Hi, nice video!
On older S and X fuse has pyrofuse like this.
But no connection to SRS or BMS system.
Pyrofuse has 2 lithium 4v battery on a small pcb board.
Does new fuse has same construction or has it cables to BMS board?
Please read the description and see part 1.
You can see this was very well engineered. So much better than that complex electronic version. Love the simplicity.
Is the electronic version the inconel fuse from the ludicrous models?
👍👍
Why is there a cut loop for firefighters if the HV fuse blows after an accident?
The cut loop is extra insurance. If the crash isn't severe enough for airbag deployment there could still be danger, and if there are unexploded airbags or seat belt tensioners, they could also cause injury, so the cut loop disables both systems.
is that bus bar a diecast? or else that's a lot of machining
It looks to me like a machined extrusion. It also has some sort of plating on the Aluminum.
Wow-Very interesting…Thank you👍
Why not just make it flip a relay?? Why does it have to break the device?
Contactors (relays) cannot break the load fast enough, and they won't survive a high-current break either.
Yes! Definitely interested in hot they control their BMS.
Thermal fuses ad unreliability to electronics, since they are the least reliable part of the circuit, suffering from metal fatigue with age, slow response, inconsistent response.
How do you know all this things??!! What happens why?! It's mindblowing...
That's what I'd like to know.
A lot of experience, application of first principles, and analysis of these systems. I take it apart so you don't have to! =)
@@Ingineerix yeah I mean really! Thank you for all these videos sharing your incredible knowledge! I bought my 1st Model S in 2017 and now my 3rd one I just took delivery of the PLAID!!! Freakish acceleration for sure, it never gets old! But I have no idea what makes it so fast so I really appreciate your videos!!! Thank you!
Where do you get all your knowledge of what to analyze or what questions to ask? Are you an engineer? A car mechanic (then you must be the smartest one on earth!)?
@@emeseszorenyi5245 Yes, I am an Engineer. I have a lot of experience, I use application of first principles, and analysis of these systems. I take it apart so you don't have to! =)
Next formula E race: Every car needs this by mandate. Firemen are too costly!
who said they dont already have that?! the hybrid powertrain on f1 cars and FE have super powerful/high current output, they even use supercapacitors and many other high output batteries compared to a tesla
Arc chutes are nothing new. I don't see a lot of novel engineering in that element of the Pyro fuse.
Building a device this cheap that can reliably break tens of thousands of amps of 450 volts DC really fast, while handling 2300A during hard acceleration is not trivial.
@@Ingineerix I agree, I just was pointing out the use of arc chutes in DC breakers and fuses is nothing new. I routinely work on high power DC field breakers over 100 years old with arc chutes. Do you think Tesla designed the Pyro fuse in-house?
@@andyfeimsternfei8408 Yes, pretty much any modern circuit breaker of even moderate voltage/power uses them, what is different is using the gas generated from the explosive charge to push the arc into the supressor. My guess is the actual device was outsourced by a supplier, but obviously the electronics to fire it is all Tesla.
It we be cost prohibitive if not impossible to keep these cars running as they get some age on them!
Why do you think that? I'd say they need way less work of any kind. I've had a Model S since 2015, and it's never had any serious issues.
@@Ingineerix -- I say that because I have 40+ years of experience with servicing software/electronic gadgets and these cars are full of high-end circuit boards that tend to fail or become unreliable over time. Also, your car is not what I would call old. Check back with me when its age ends in teen!
@@rpsmith Well, I do too, and I'd say that comparing a 20 year old PCB design to what's available now is like comparing a 20 year old car to what's available now. Cars, even normal internal combustion cars, are WAY more reliable than they were 20 years ago, and a lot of it is due to the electronics. you also cannot compare electronics made for cars with that of even industrial electronics, let alone (disposable) consumer electronics. My guess is you've probably never heard of AEC certification? Take a look: www.microcontrollertips.com/what-does-automotive-qualification-mean-faq/
@@Ingineerix -- I won't have any problems keeping my older cars running. Let's see how lucky you will be at getting replacement parts at a cost that doesn't exceed the value of your car!
I have designed plenty of electronics over my 45year carrier much of which was still running after 20 years or more. More often it's replaced because there's some thing newer , better and faster. Rather than it fails.
Also as an electronics hobbyist have no problem buying 20 year old test equipment, 30 year old not so much.
Not to say there isn't some shit design out there that it would never touch, but thats where my experience helps steer my way from that.
Is this normal hardware for other OEM's as well? Do they have something similar or is Tesla going above an beyond here?
I can't say with authority, but most other OEMs seem to be using plain old fuses. Expect that other very high performance EVs will be using this tech. Tesla isn't doing this to be cool, they are doing it to improve safety and reliability.
Yes. Bmw, vw group, merc, toyota, Hyundai. They use it on the battery. Primarily during collisions.
@@jeffsteyn7174 how does it work then?
Blowing the pyro fuse for any airbag deployment is a waste, and completely disables the vehicle. There are situations where the vehicle may still be drivable after a collision and you want to move it out of traffic or into a nearby parking lot. Instead you will be immobile and possibly hit a second time until the scene is secured. This behavior is too conservative IMO, the fuse should only blow if there's actually an overcurrent event, or the BMS detects that the HV is still present after opening the contactors. The blown pyro fuse also makes collision repair much more of a hassle since it requires a specially-trained technician (HV certified) to replace. Small collisions that could normally be completely repaired by a typical body shop will instead require a Tesla shop to complete. Not repair friendly, increases labor costs to fix and time you have to wait to get your car back.
USA flag on the board!!! Go America! -Elon
parts made in china, taiwan, europe...... lol!
uhh we gona get the slo mo guys to pop that fuse with super slo mo?
Warped Perception channel might do it.