Prof Dale Martin: Surprises in the Gospel of John
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- We continue our series of talks on the New Testament with the Gospel of John. Professor Dale Martin is a distinguished American New Testament scholar who taught at Yale University for over 30 years. See his excellent Introduction to New Testament History and Literature (Open Yale Courses) www.amazon.com/Testament-Hist...
1:30- Overview of Prof Martin's book
2:50 - Historians doubt on conclusive traditional christian views
5:30- When was the Gospel likely to be written
8:30- Hesitance in early church in accepting gospel of John as scripture
16:30- Is the Gospel a product of various editorial stages
32:20- Utility of this Gospel if it's foundational eye witness testimonies are taken away
46:38 - What language did jesus speak
Many thanks!
@@BloggingTheology let us all learn about the gospel of barnabas
Your face inspires optimism and love, we are with you always, God willing your subscibers will reach 100,000 sòon
Thank you so much 😀
@@BloggingTheology
🌷🌷🌷🌷
@asma bint marwan Feminists?? God no! I hope not .
@@BloggingTheology when you are true faithful believer, and doing good deeds Allah will inspire you what amaze you, to fix you on the straight path and you will live simple good life in this world (from my experience) and an unimaginable best eternal life (Allah says that).
Bleive me l am deadly certain through watching the conducts of all kinds of people!!!!
This man is an absolute genius. I am not religious, but he has opened up my eyes to completely new ways of thinking historically and about religion. He has also demystified the Bible for me enormously. I am also benefiting greatly from his Yale course, which is another brilliant resource, as well as his book, which you mention in your videos. Thank you for your channel, for hosting such amazing guests, and for asking such incredible questions.
Seriously, you release video faster than I can absorb. I have yet finished watching The Gospel of Luke. Thanks anyway. Next, Paul's letters ?
Thanks to you brother Paul. Am now watching all his lectures on Yale courses. Right now am on the 'Paul as a pastor' lecture. Am really enhanced
Wonderful!
Thank you Paul and thank you Dale for a great conversation. I watched the Yale video courses on CZcams and I liked especially the one titled ‘Paul the Jewish theologian.’ That was 11 years ago. It’s a gem.
Thank you for introducing me to Prof. Dale Martin lectures ❤️
You will be rewarded by God for your great efforts
Such calm face and pure intensive knowledge..Bless u
What a great series - thank you!
God bless you for your works brother Paul!
Nice video as usual. I'm amazed by the hard work and attention to details theologians like Dale and Paul must be putting to to read the scriptures again and again to get the context and all possible meanings and the ongoing conflicts of the era. And to understand the unspoken and unwritten things that could ve been missed inadvertently or deliberately been asked to omit. Kudos.
Paul, Paul, Paul
How many times have I called you?
You have taken this matter to a whole new level.
Absolutely incredible conversation
Wish u and your family bakr eid mubarak in advance
Thanks dear and respected Paul for another great Video .
Wonderful! Dale Martin always talks pure sense to me. Most especially when he doesn't make sense.
Hey Paul! Your every post is so deep and logical. Proud of you 👍
I appreciate that!
Great job brother Paul, we luv u and Allah swt grant you peace in both worlds ameen 🙂🤲
Brother paul please add subtitle for ur videos. Cuz u r viewer like me from indonesia. And i like all ur videos. Thank you
I will try
Lah ada yg nyampe sini 🤣
@@dwihandaka1657 ngk ada..😀😀
@@dwihandaka1657 anda juga nyampe sini
@@BloggingTheology i can help you with Indonesian translation but I will need the full english script
Great conversation and Q&A. Thanks Paul. This now completes the four gospels and other documents. His advice is clear: 'Just read and ponder'. Churches; eg Roman Catholics, Anglicans do it nicely : Programme reading and good homilies.
👍
@@BloggingTheology I recognised Raymond Brown but couldn't trace the other Texan author he mentioned: "Louis Martin'? Look out for for another monumental book to appear soon: 'The Jerome Biblical Commentary for the 21st century - 3rd fully revised edition by John J Collins, Barbara Reid, Donald Senior and Gina Hens-Piazza with forward written by Pope Francis (Bloomsbury Academic - 18th Nov 2021). Discount for The Tablet Readers. This is the new team replacing Raymond Brown's team. Errors and omissions of the previous Jerome commentary are now rectified - I am told - eg Isaiah's Book II.
@@Chandransingham Wow thanks for the heads up!
@@BloggingTheology I often quoted from Jerome Commentary to challenges from our Muslim brother apologists/polemists. I also ask them to purchase this important work cf 'Reliable Hadiths'.
Would you please interview and discuss with Mr Jeffry Lang? i think it will be great discussion too…thank you Mr Paul..🙏
42:56 - I'm reminded of my undergraduate English tutor's advice on how to read Joyce's Ulysses: "Just read it". It worked.
The writer of the gospel of John was one of the most talented and inspired writers. The Father, His Son and the Father's Spirit are honored today primarily because of him.
🌹✝️♥️🌹✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️
but God almighty the one and only was the jealous God, do not associated any partner the creator with any creation were has he created
Excellent, Bro !
👍
Thank you! Cheers!
19 years ago I was a teen lol enjoying my youth.
Well done poul
Dear Paul - - I've enjoyed your series with Dale Martin, but you & he barely scratched the surface with respect to the Gospel of John. Exploring John in depth would be one of the most interesting things you could possibly do - - contrasting it with, for example, Matthew, and addressing the historiographic and theological issues in considerable depth (e.g., where the Johannine and Matthean communities stood with respect to key issues, including the Essenes).
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته.👋👋👋👋
I AM...of the opinion that one should apply the standard of third party reference to all the New Testament books in order to date them on the historical timeline.
Why do Christians carry the cross around their necks?
If the Son of God was executed, as they say, in the electric chair, would they also carry the chair around their necks?
Weird and funny at the same time!
@asma bint marwan
Shush , asma, orelse the church would hear you !! Are you saying you're against gay persons ???? Then your against Methodist church and an enemy of the SOCIETY. Be careful : )
@Bible Believer they made Christianity , and Islam is their and your nightmare
@@agadirand4four347 a spineless insecure troll who hides behind a fake Alias , that is what that person is
@Bible Believer there is nothing called biblical Christianity , the only true Christianity was Jewish Christianity which is actually Judaism which accepts Jesus ( pbuh ) as messiah and follow mosaic law upon which apostles were upon and today it is called Islam and Islam is the nightmare of all false beliefs and practices unknown to prophets of God which were falsely attributed to them which happened to Jesus
@@agadirand4four347 I described that troll
Paul I have a couple of questions for the professor.
Is it true that there is evidence in the targum for the Trinity?
Second, could the saying attributed to Jesus that before Abraham was I am and that he had a glory with the father simply mean that he was the Messiah who jews believe is created before everything else?
What is the reliability and validity of these historical analysis? This is the main question and he pointed indirectly very less.
Hi Paul, have you ever thought of going on the premier christian radio show "unbelievable"? Or inviting some of those guys on your channel? It'd be a interesting discussion especially if it's do with "the authenticity of the bible" or "who was the historical Jesus"? Tom Wright was on that show not too long ago. Thanks
Great idea!
Eid mubarak. Eidul adha. 🤲🤲🤲
Khair Mubarik 🤲🏻🤲🏻🤲🏻
LET US LEARN THE GOSPEL OF BARNABAS
46:36 MasyaAllah. Does this mean all the biblical scholars doesn't even know conclusively what language Jesus speak?
Can you please make a video about 5:33 Quran. I’m Muslim but I’m still very confused on the context of that. Thank you!!
What is confusing about it
@@think-islam-channel never mind I researched and found the context :) thank you
Here we go again...
Can you Imagine 2000 years from now the analysis of Mark Twains huckleberry Finn, letters from earth and a Connecticut Yankee to come to a literary conclusion of the mind of Twain not to mention the history of his literary name.
Lots of great information, but just a tiny bit heavy for my non-philosophical mind. I guess that I agree with John about the day of the crucifixion, as opposed to the synoptics, but maybe that's because I have a contrarian mathematician's mind that doesn't understand how the period of Friday at 1500 to Sunday at 0600, which is 39 hours, is "3 days".
☝🏻
Verisimilitude is fun to say.
☆☆☆☆☆
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men
Ignatius duplicates a clause in Greek that occurs in John 3:8. The Gospel reads: to pneuma . . . pnei . . . all’ ouk oidas pothen erchetai kai pou hupagei (“The wind . . . blows . . . but you do not know where [it] comes from and where [it] goes”). In his letter to the Philadelphians (7.1) he writes: to pneuma . . . oiden pothen erchetai kai pou hupagei (“The Spirit . . . knows where [he] comes from or where [
He was a Christian apologist (defender of the faith) and unambiguously quotes from John (First Apology [Defense] 1.61).
Who ever wrote Gospel of John knew exactly what his doing when he copied most of the information from the other Gospels in this book but added more information in it
Salam Paul....have you watched a youtube video "Jesus in India - Presentation by Edward T.Martin"? If you haven't, would you consider watching it and may be do a reaction video.
From that video, I learned that Mary's grave is in a small village in Northern Pakistan, and Jesus' grave is in Srinagar, Kashmir. This is pretty shocking.
What credible evidence is provided for those claims?
Can please someone explain if Allah swt is omnibenevolent (“perfectly good”)? And if not why this is not a “problem” in comparison to the Christian understanding of “their” god?
Omnibenevolent God is not what they want
@@adityasaputratok what do you mean? What do they want instead?
You are a Christian, right? Could you explain how this is an example of your god being “perfectly good” the way you put it:
1Samuel
15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; *put to death men and women, children and infants,* cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
How is killing women, children and infants is an attribute of a perfectly good deity. How about killing the animals. Was that also the sign of a ‘perfectly good god.’
Deuteronomy 20
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, *all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor* and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, *put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.* And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, *do not leave alive anything that breathes.* 17 Completely destroy them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Your god commands genocide by instructing the Israelites “ do not leave anything that breathes alive.’ This is not a good picture of a god who is perfectly good, is it?
@@BenM61 no, I’m not a Christian. I’m a Muslim alhamdulillah. But this is what they say in order to justify the concept of a tri-une god who is sharing his love with the other persons of the trinity.
@@srnp0007 I only believe with regard to God what is reported in the Quran and the authentic Sunna. I wanted to know what the Islamic standpoint on the topic of “omnibenevolence” is as I just started looking into it. So far it looks to me that it is irrelevant as the Islamic view on how to interpret the attributes of Allah are completely different than the Christian view. It all depends also on how certain terms are defined and with which assumptions.
i see lot of speculations, no one is sure about what to believe among christian historians & scholars.
this is what happens no mean to authenticate the texts & sources upon which you are basing your believes, you end up with lots of contradictions, opinions and speculations even about core believes that should be crystal clear.
@BeSaladin. Friend, it's called critical analysis which has been going on about Christian scriptures for thousands of centuries now. It's all a matter of opinion. When the critical analysis gets done on Islam, it's anti Muslims, hate, islamophobes, just to shut down any criticism of Islam. I am asking you and Muslims, are there any critical analysis done on Islam to the extent that it's done to Christianity. And are Muslims as open-minded about their scriptures in receiving negativity in their own scriptures and are they open minded to receive some of the realities of Islam.
@@mindexcursion9856TY for your comment friend.
Actually what you said is far from the truth.
To summarize, what you are calling critical analysis is arguing about which should we consider (or not) as the word of god from the content of the bible and it's all due to the canonization of the bible starting 200+ years AD.
As muslims there is no place to arguing about their source of believe (GODs revelation - the Quran), as it preservation is undoubtable, through memorization mainly (thousands of people memorizing it within the prophets life) and early canonization. For the Quran we have 100% matching manuscripts from a Quran dating to the third Islamic caliph (18 years after prophet death). Add to that the exactly matching Birmingham manuscript.. etc
Even the sayings of our prophets (hadith) are traced through their chain of narration (men who narrated it, with strict condition) an are more reliable that the christian scriptures in terms of authenticity.
So for me critical analysis is trying to fill missing blocks in a kinda blind way, it's opinion-based which means there is place to speculations, lots of contradictory conclusions, and finally uncertainty.
I encourage you to search more and think more.
May GOD guide us all to the truth
Best regards.
Brother Paul, can you host Sheikh Shamsi to talk about his story from Sufism to monotheism?
And the differences between Sufism and Salafism from the point of view of a person who was a Sufi and now calls the name Salafism ,
I have asked Samsi to come on to BT. I hope he does one day. I have huge respect for him and his dawah.
@@BloggingTheology Thank you, brother Paul, and I hope to host Sheikh Othman bin Al-Farouq and Shaykh Abu Usamah At-Thahabi. It is possible to talk about Sufism from a Salafi point of view, as well as the dispute between the Ash’aris and the people of hadith (Salafis).
Sufism on the scale - Sheikh Othman Al Khamees ,, He is one of the students of Sheikh Ibn Uthaymeen.. What do you think of what he said, my brother?
czcams.com/video/EHlgutgpbDw/video.html
Sheikh Shamsi?? Are you not exaggerating?
The problem with sufism it is when it becomes extreme and they have deviant practices, sheikh ibn Taymiyyah praised some sufis and call others deviant
Salafi have the same problem when it becomes extremes, it is really bad as well, they become takfiris or call everyone deviant (like Spubs)
Look at this video from sheikh Asseem m.czcams.com/video/MujCf_-kCIs/video.html
It became like a cult, Abu Khadeeja and the spub have been called by many shuyukh look at sp-files channel you will find a lot
Allah told us to not be divided in the Quran and they do the opposite
"And hold firmly to the rope of Allah1 and do not be divided. Remember Allah’s favour upon you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts, so you-by His grace-became brothers. And you were at the brink of a fiery pit and He saved you from it. This is how Allah makes His revelations clear to you, so that you may be ˹rightly˺ guided"
@@younesbenaddi4721 Dear brother . I want to explain to you some of the famous political terms and their reasons. Like the word: madkhali, jami. Wahhabi.
The word al-Jami is meant by the scholar Muhammad Aman al-Jami, and he is one of the well-known and well-known Muslim scholars. He was against partisan movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood and the takfir groups. Sheikh al-Jami was informing the Saudi government of the places where these parties gather to maintain security in Saudi Arabia.
After that, the groups that are against the Saudi government started calling everyone who supports the Saudi government and opposes these partisan movements with the word Jami.
Note that this Sheikh is a great scholar, and the great scholars testify to him for his merit and knowledge, as I mentioned to you.
Al-Madkhali means the scholar Rabee’ al-Madkhali, a well-known scholar among Muslim scholars who was also warning against partisan ideas, such as Sheikh al-Jami.
The Muslim Brotherhood has, as you know, a project to rule the Islamic countries, including Saudi Arabia.. They are the ones who affixed the word “Madkhali” to all those who oppose them and support the Saudi government.
What is meant by the Brotherhood’s words is that the Madkhalis sanctify the Saudi government, even if they violate the Qur’an and Sunnah, and this is not true
Ask the Muslim Brotherhood what you say about the Muslim Brotherhood rulers who do not apply the teachings of Islam. You will not see insults and insults as they do against the Saudi government because this ruler is from their group.
This scholar is Saleh Al-Fawzan.. Look what he says about Sheikh Al-Madkhali and Sheikh Al-Jami
czcams.com/video/yA7xOqolgwo/video.html
Hear what the scholar Saleh Al-Fawzan says about Sheikh Rabee Al-Madkhali
czcams.com/video/eq78k7oVSHk/video.html
Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan warns those who make films to drive a wedge between scholars. And they say about Sheikh Al-Fawzan something he did not say about Al-Madkhali + And Sheikh Al-Madkhali warns against the Hadadists who want to tear apart Salafism and differentiate between the scholars of Islam.
czcams.com/video/X24BVlIi1WA/video.html
As for the word Wahhabism, it is a designation from the Sufi Ottoman Empire, whose creed contradicts the texts of the Qur’an and the Sunnah of monotheism.. There is evidence from the Qur’an not to seek mercy and sustenance from the dead. This is sharak 'akbar
There is evidence from the hadith that it is forbidden to build shrines on graves.. But the Ottoman Empire was building shrines everywhere.
This does not fit the Sufi thought, so they used the word Wahhabism to demonize the group of Sheikh Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab, who wanted to return the Arabs to monotheism, as the Prophet Muhammad and his friends were.
This is the book of monotheism of Sheikh Muhammad Abdul Wahhab
Explanation of the Book of Tawheed - Imam Muhammad Abdul Wahab
d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single2/en_50_questions_and_answers_in_faith.pdf
In short, Jamia, Madkhali, and Wahhabism are partisan designations.
It has nothing to do with religion or belief and is used for political projects.
Muslims are brothers and their union is in the interest of the nation, and countries are torn apart has no interest in Islam.. Unfortunately, the Muslim Brotherhood is trying to bring down even strong and stable countries to reach power, even if the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, whose efforts are great in serving Islam and Muslims.
There is no angelic state in the Islamic world since the end of the rule of the Rightly-Guided Caliphate, but this does not mean leading revolutions and destruction as the political parties want.
I hope you understand my words because I don't speak English very well
If someone wants to use the word “Madkhali” for sheikhs who exaggerate in obedience to Muslim rulers, then it is more appropriate to call the Muslim Brotherhood also a “Madkhali” because their party forces the imams to blindly listen and obey the Brotherhood’s guide..
And some of the Muslim Brotherhood who rule the Islamic countries are at war with God and His Messenger in rulings that contradict the laws of God.
Therefore, we must be neutral and leave political conflicts and care only about religion.. Whoever violates religion will be punished by God, whether ruler or ruled, whether from Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or anywhere.
Therefore, the labels are not based on their reality, but the actions against which a person is judged.
Sorry for the length, brother.. but these labels have spread and people do not know their reasons. Thank you .
@@user-kj8yl6sn2z brother I agree with 90% of what you said, but I do not understand why would you like to promote Shamsi who has this partisan mentality so well developped the total contrary of you.
His mentor like Abu Khadeejah, divide wife from husband, brother from brother. He has been warned by his own sheikh to not give fatwa, and he give fatwa of divorce, cancelling marriage, or calling people mubtadi3 on a regular basis.
They practice jarh wa ta3deel on regular people, and sheikh Fawzan have been asked about this issue, he said that this is only for muhadithin and not for people, he said what they do is called slandering and gossiping and they need to repent for that.
They have this us against the world mentality, calling some da3ees and shuyukh mubtadi3in. While having not knowledge of arabic, not having studied, not having the decency to call the prophet in their arabic names and not saying 3alayhim salam afterwards (like Ischmael, Abraham), slandering the prophet Suleyman 3alayhi salam, preventing people from entering in the masjid just because they follow another sheyh
Who we got the knowledge from is important, what is the point to bring people with so little knowkedge and causing so much division
And lastly I think that you should not label sufis like that, they are all different, some do things really bad I agree, but they are not the same, as salafis are not the same
Ps: I think Shamsi is being used personnaly, I hope he will get out from this
Wow.. Finally what I expected was validated... There are lor of assumptions to these studies... LIMITATIONS!!.
Yes it doesn't connect all dots of the puzzle... Lot of holes in their scholarship which they cannot explain. That is why these works has to be viewed only in context and that has huge limitations and very high degree of subjectivity.
He has openly accepted that they take the test and interpret it in their own way and develop theories... By reconstructing a new sequence of things. Those which are similar fall in line and justified. and things which are not in line with their narration or not fitting in...they say it was a later edition...it cannot be true.... So they virtually develop their own narrative or model and try to fit all the characters into their model for explaining their sequence by redeveloping them. Or else considered as later edition...and not part of original writings😇😉. To fit their narrative they theorise different things based on their perspective. 😇😇😇. Hence lack reliability, validity, objectivity, historicity... Just mere speculation... By writing their speculative argument in the form of book and market their books and create own identify..... Purely professional business.
Finally truth is out... Muslim and blogging theology would be thoroughly disappointed😞😞
Yes...lots of assumptions but I'll rather call it 'judgement of competent scholars. Their theories are understandable to any objective mind because no profile and background of the writer is given, no context as regards the place of writing, no date is given even if it was late, late and yet contains the highest Christology, portrays Jesus as though he was not a Jew himself, no known criteria for why 4 Gospels out of many are canonised, no precise knowledge of those who canonised them and decided the books of the N.T etc.
You shouldn't at all blame them for their theories. They are simply working with a thin amount of background info.
And for the Muslim claim, these scholarly theories strengthen it instead. As compared to the Hadith, these Gospels wouldn't even pass the criteria of a WEAK NARRATION.
@@naijamuslim83641. Paul's profile is known. And gospel was written or compiled later. When Paul is writing in late 30AD, then one has to come with clear statement as to how Paul will fit in... Because here they cannot make assumptions as Paul is well known... Out if 14 books of Paul 7 is strongly attributed to Paul's writing. These 7 are enough to destroy the conclusion if the scholarship which claims otherwise.
2. if you insist on profile of writer the biography of Mohammed was written in 9 th century.... Be careful... These scholarship when give zn Islamic text they will the text will melt like ice .
3. Very important Muslim have lost or destroyed original manuscript of haufsa the second wife of Mohamad and calif uttam destroyed manuscript and even uttmans 5/7 copies sent to all Muslim regions. What will scholarship do when all originals were lot of a 7 th century document?
No original but claim xerox is available 🙃😉. Like injeel all original document have been lost without a trace😇😇.
Paul of blogging theology knows it..... Do you know it?
The guest also said we apply this methodology of peeling onion to buddism, Hinduism, jew,... But purposeful avoided islam🤣😂 to keep Paul's viewers happy. 😉. But if it is applied to islam they don't need much of assumptions... They will directly state with legality that "no originals"🧐🤓😎🤩.
In this century scrutiny has made suni shahi haddis transformed to weak haddis 🙃😜😋😝... Next is quran.
Again these are scholars knowing fully well that there are indeed problems. You are making red herring comments. If the Quran is wrong, how does that help your case. You also mentioned the hadith as being late ignoring the fact that they come with chains of narration with each person in the chain having a well known life history, and that those who wrote them as well as their criteria for classifying them into weak, good and authentic narrations are well known.
You mentioned Paul, which was not what you started with. We started with the Gospels so no scholar will use the writings of Paul in place of the biographies of Jesus. Even the Paul you mentioned, not much is known about him except what he himself tells us which is not an objective evidence in itself. Moreover, Paul never met or saw Jesus. One can simply believe in these matters but scholars won't do so.
@@naijamuslim8364 he accepted his limitations.... Generally these scholarship don't highlight their limitations... higher the degree of limitations.... Lower is the reliability score....
@@hashh2019😇😅😂😆🤣
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
What does it mean
Your Father and My Father
My God and Your God
its clear that the father is GOD from that passage alone "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"
it's like those people are blind, they ignore such a clear and direct saying form jesus, and stick to ambiguous "i and and the father are one" even if jesus himself clarified that by saying to the disciples "you can be one with us as i'm and the father are one" meaning one in purpose.
@@BeSaladin
Jesus did not say
I have not ascend yet to "my Father" but "the Father"
@@akbar339 he did indeed say "my" and "your" (referring to the disciples) father,
"... Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17
First 🥷
How could prof. Dale MArtin say he is "not up on" the writings of the early church fathers and whether they used john's Gospel, if he wrote a book on the Gospel of John? How could he be so ignorant that he can't answer Paul's basic questions on this important point?
What a challenging of mind interview!!..
i do wonder if this sort critical mind do existed in islam, or judaism scholar ...
when they read their religious manuscripts...🤔☺️
Judaism yes, probably more so as they tanakh has always been a text whose meaning is to be debated. Also, outside of the orthodox Jews, they don't view the tanakh as scripture.
Islam, no. The Qur'an is the divine word of god, and to question it is to question god.
@@darrylviljoen6227 ..
but in islam there is no guarantee that it's khilafah also not changed its content right?..
or the question other putted;..
is there any survival of the first Qur'an?? whrere is kept?..
@@budyharianto8229 my knowledge of Islam and it's traditions is limited but I believe that the dominant tradition in modern Islam is to veiw the current content of the Qur'an as the literal word of god.
The oldest extant version of the Qur'an, to my knowledge, is the sanna'a manuscript in Yemen.
Which is within margin of error of being written in Mohammed's lifetime.
That said the current political climate in Yemen means no one is really looking at it right now.
14:37
Jesus claiming to be God. Isn’t they what makes Jesus special and unique.
Paul u must love life right now. U get to expose false teachings from the smartest people, n you get to fight for God by showing how awesome Islam and its messenger are.
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "Truly I tell you," answered Jesus, "before Abraham was born, (BU) I am!" (B.V.)
The irony is that, according to most Christians, this is the ultimate proof that Jesus is Almighty God.
If "I AM" is God, all Jesus is quoting here is from the Old Testament. Before Abraham was "GOD". Not I AM GOD. In other words Jesus makes it clear that he has this knowledge from GOD (I AM) again for clarity he does not say I am "I AM" (GOD).
59 At this they took stones to stone him, (BW) but Jesus hid himself, (BX) slipping away from the temple grounds.
So according to many of our Christian friends, Jesus claimed with the "I AM" that he is Almighty God. But how ironic it is that in verse 59 this Almighty God then had to hide and flee from those very same few Jews to whom he told that he is that Almighty God.
This is clearly a misinterpretation of our friends. Context and logic is required.
Some people think...some people is me, and think, the Essenes were Jews but different on the way of thinking about God...they seemed to accept to hear others believers on others Faith cause God, my interpretation, humble opinion not scholar, so...God was a source so would be heard by those opened to it..I will think about it...
Dale seems to hold back for some reason, but it's fine if he still doesn't want to open the door of the "Real Truth".
ty Paul
Should be called Gossip of John. Not much more than hearsay and corrupted teachings
@Blogging Theology when you are true faithful believer, and doing good deeds Allah will inspire you what amaze you, to fix you on the straight path and you will live simple good life in this world (from my experience) and an unimaginable best eternal life (Allah says that).
Bleive me l am deadly certain through watching the conducts of all kinds of people!!!!
May ALLAH guide non-Muslims to the truth.
This is the most controversial and the last according to Gospel... This elevates Jesus to God yet 17:3 smashes that in contradiction.
The other 3 are about Jesus the man.
This Gospel was not even read by Paul as he was dead
from Kamal Salibis book"Conspiracy in Jerusalem"
The Koran makes a clear distinction between the Israelites (Banu Isra'il) and the Jews ( al Yahud).* The Israelites are depicted as the historical 'chosen' people who were the 'preferred'
of God in their time, despite their frequent lapses into error;the Jews,on the other hand are spoken of as an existing religeous community ( by implication, of Israelite origin) which pays special deference to Ezra.
* Srticktly, the Israelites are an ancient people whose history,until the fifth or fourth century BC is recorded in the Hebrew Bible. The Jews,on the other hand are the followers of Biblical monotheism and the laws of Moses as interpreted and developed by rabbinical tradition in post-exilic times (i.e. after the sixth century BC.
First here
@asma bint marwan ok your comments are too frequent already, you're trolling already. You're messages are becoming an annoyance.
@asma bint marwan homosexual it’s ok..in Christianity..because Jesus died for gays and lesbians lol 😂
If someone doesn't believe (or isn't open to believe) that Jesus is part of a trinitarian God then clearly the Gospels fall apart. It basically took you nearly an hour to say that, but it's obvious. All of the things that Jesus said which you say are "unlikely", of course are in that scenario. But this doesn't prove that the Gospels are wrong because for a person who can accept Jesus as God then all of these problems disappear. The "unlikely" becomes consistent. The Pharisees would have hated Him for calling himself the messiah. God is God and he can do unlikely things. The problem with these videos is that you are interviewing a man (Dale Martin) who has studied the Gospels but doesn't believe in them and so isn't a Christian. The arguments he puts forward say nothing at all to Christians because we believe in a whole other scenario (one God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in which the Gospels work and speak to us. You ask what is the "utility" of the Gospel of John and say that it isn't an "instruction manual" but your argument is based on a preposition that Jesus isn't devine which leads you to that argument. There is a whole other preposition in which He is and then Gospels are incredibly useful. As for it not being an instruction manual have you not read the Sermon on the Mount? This video is a storm in a teacup and irrelevant to any committed Christian. If you want to debunk Christianity then you need to do better than this. There is another utility in the Gospels, even for Muslims; they say what Christians actually believe rather than what Mohammed thought that they believed. If you want to know what Christians believe then talk to one, don't listen to Dale Martin.
Dale is a Christian. Here is his personal bio in wiki:
[Martin grew up in Texas and attended a fundamentalist church related to the Churches of Christ. *He is currently a member of the Episcopal Church.* He identifies as a gay man.]
Dr Dale Martin is Episcopalian. His personal theological views are not part of what he teaches. He tries to separate his personal views from his occupational duties of studying the scriptures with an open mind and critical thinking.
@@BenM61 the views that he is expressing in this video are not Christian.
@@gepwxaqdfsidsesg1548 Who made you a god to judge who is Christian and who is not. That is more of ad hominem argument. Why don’t you show where he was wrong and prove your case with sound and reasonable evidence. Dale was trying to separate the wheat from the chaff and the historical from the theological views of the NT authors. According to The Jesus Seminar there is a difference between “the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith. Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him.” Some people accept the Bible as truth and word of god but others question the validity of that position and try to go beyond the traditional theology and creeds to recover what Jesus really said and did. The quest for the historical Jesus is an ongoing search for the truth about Jesus and what he said.
@@BenM61 a Christian who doesn't believe in the Gospels is analogous to a Muslim who doesn't believe the Qur'an. He can believe what he wants but wheeling him in as a Christian theologian is misrepresenting Christianity.
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The gospel of john contradict himself the first : christ's witness of himself is true john 8 :18 ,14 but in john 5 :31 christ's witness of himself is not true . Another example And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the son of man john 3 :13 . But in 2 king 2: 11 ,Elijah went up a whirlwind into heaven
Once u mentioned he was a friend of the lightweigt heretic Ehrman I dismissed everything he had to say
Can't cope with the truth that the bible is a forgery LOL
The synoptics more real than John? Luke was not one of the 12, and never witnessed Jesus ministry, which means he is a hearsay witness at best, but yet he manages to be in agreement with the other two. Smell a rat?
Well, look at the synoptic gospels as being pro OT. Whereas John opposes the OT if you're not a paid OT propagandist. Jesus said the world was going to be proven wrong in John 16:7-15. He said the Holy Spirit Advocate would be the one to do that. In John 6:70-71 Jesus says one of the 12 is a devil. Supposedly John in verse 71 points to Judas as the devil, saying something about the betrayal. Well, if John knew about the betrayal ahead of time as this suggests, why then does John see the devil prompt Judas to betray in John 13:2? Why does he see Satan enter him after Jesus gives him the bread? Hmm, Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew, didn't he? Now, Peter = 75259 = 1279 = 109 = 19 = 1. Jesus prayed to the Father to protect them from the evil ONE. Well, Jesus picked the twelve and there were two Simon's, so he gave one of them a name. Remember the name of the demon they accused Jesus of healing by? Beelzebul = 255385233 = 78876 = 15156 = 666. Well, Cephas = 357831 = 335178 = 6615 = 666. Matt 7:12, despite the synoptic gospels being what appears pro OT, cites the Golden rule, then SUMS (up the law = 37 285 335 = 537 78 33 = 15 15 6 = 666) and the (prophets = 79678521 = 96785217 = 151515 = 666) Your guest was either taught wrong or is an OT propagandist, sorry to say.
Peace Be With You
If you have converted to Islam then focus on that. Don't waste your time trying to disprove truth itself.
Can't cope with the truth that the bible is a forgery 🤣
Al hamdulilah for the bless of islam it was revealing when dr dale said that people should not treat the scripture as an owner manual
Allah have blessed us with the quran which is literally an owner manual
He know this about his book but he still insist to be christian that proves the guidance is only from allah
The real surprise is that prof dale b. martin is a believing and practicing christian. Somehow critical analysis does not shake the faith of a christian.
Why does Blogging Theology not critically analyze Islam?
For example, there are verses in the Quran that seem to be out of order.
Surah 41 : 10-11
And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.
Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
So, Allah created the Earth, and then created Heaven?
@@tombuddy100 i think because muslims are afraid to be critical of the quran. To be critical of ones own scripture can be devastating but liberating in the same time. I think they are afraid of losing their faith when they stop placing their scripture on a pedestal.
@@misterprogressive8730 What if their scriptures were not from God, but simply written by some wise people in the Middle East?
What if their faith is based on nothing divine whatsoever?
@@tombuddy100 the integrity and preservation of the quran is testable and proven. The oldest surviving quran shows almost no alteration. It doesnt proove divine origine at all. For me this whole discussion about critical reading of the bible and the search for historical jesus is useless for making any points for islamic cause because according to the theory historical jesus was crucified and wanst born of a virgin. They are contridicting quranic narrative. A while back ago paul williams talked about angelika neuwirth from the corpus coranicum project in berlin, whose boss said this " The project's research director, Michael Marx, told Der Spiegel that the Quran did not arise in a vacuum, as for the sake of simplicity some western researchers had supposed. The Arabian peninsula in the 7th century was exposed to the great Byzantine and Persian Empires as well as the ideas of Gnosticism, early Christianity, the ideals of ancient Arabic poetry and the ideas of rabbinic Judaism. Only in light of this world of ideas, Marx added, "can the innovations of the Quran be clearly seen,"[5] and while parallels exist with non-Quranic texts, "it is not a copy-and-paste job."[6]" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Coranicum
@@tombuddy100 perhaps the point of the whole discussion is not to discredit christianity but instead to show muslims that there isnt anything to be afraid of reading the quran critically. One will not loose ones faith from it. But i think most of his listerners havent understood that yet and still thinking that he is doing islamic apologetics.
These historicial analysis are just ...development of theories by some scholarship...more of subjectivity.... And Not proved... 🙃. Can never be generalised😎🤓🧐🤠... Beyond a point
And mainstream Christianity is different?!
@@think-islam-channel Christianity believe in Jesus Christ divinity... Jesus Christ is God
@@bbccnn8836
Islam believes that is false.
Only God is God.
@@think-islam-channel Christianity believess Jesus is God and not Allah...in Sura 9:31 Allah says Jesus and alalah to be worshipped... but translation says different
@E-man these scholarship who look into the text state for sure that Jesus was crucified.... Meaning Allah is false.... Blogging will never ask a question for which Muslim audience will not like😁😆😅😉... Or see contradict the quran.
If he open his debate with this.... He will not have this audience and even you not like this channel, 😜
🤮
*_The only authentic and preserved scripture by Allah to humanity is the Noble Quran. All previous scriptures were made obsolete as people changed them to suit their desire._*
You need to read about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Almost the entire Jewish texts are present and it proves that the Jewish texts have not changed at all in at least two thousand years.
@@srnp0007 Bad point from ignorant man please read well about Quran before giving such silly statements
Interesting that the Quaran says, 3: 3-4 "it is He who sent down to you in truth the book, confirming what went before it; he sent down the Torah (of Moses) and the gospel (of Jesus). Before this as a guide to mankind"....... so if the books before the Quaran are corrupt why did Mohamad write this?
@@johnpatriki5722 If accept this verse of Quran you must accept this also Sorat Alnsaa 4:46 (Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe) so what we understand of Quran and we Muslims accept the true Torah of Moses (PBUH) the true Engele (gospel) of Esa (PBUH) Not the corrupted ones of Luke and John etc
@@user-rm4jm1ex8r agreed Israel failed because of their unbelief. But you moved away from the subject. Muhammad is affirming the truth of the Torah and Gospel. Do you obey him and trust him for his word.
Its funny you dont reach out to conservative scholars, but rather appeal to liberal scholars even though you would not accept what they say about Islam. Disingenuous to say the least.... So tell me Paul, do you accept what Martins says about the virgin birth or his rejection of other clear quranic teachings? I didnt think so... Its both ironic and hypocritical of you - wouldn't you agree?
Why ask him ? He is an expert in " new testament" not Islam or Qur'an.
@asma bint marwan I think you're following Paul footsteps not of Jesus by using Muslim name.
@asma bint marwan I think you're frustrated because of Blogging Theology Channelm
You guys are committing either slander or backbiting the man, one thing is to be tolerant about a particular people or their way of life. WE Muslims should be objective about people and their preferences etc and not subjective or be guided by our subjective feelings. Muslims be objective about people and your opinions and stop you're sinning work your tongue specially in these very important 10 blessed days. As for brother Paul choosing what guests to invite into his podcasts, it's his choice, it's his channel, oof he chooses to bring Bart Ehrman tomorrow will the critics be unhappy?? Maybe we should suggest him what scholar to bring next, to improve his channel. Jazak Allahu Khairan.
@asma bint marwan sister what type of Muslim are you?? Are you a liberal Muslim? Are you of those who are affected by the tides of change of society? I would be specially particular about my words. I don't really damage your subjective feelings but I respect Dr Dale Martin as a bible scholar.