Eurobike 2023 - the state of Engineering in the bike industry
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Believe it or not, this is just a fraction of what I filmed and commented! Hope you enjoy. Time for a rest. 2.5 very tiring and hot days!
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
3:46 Trigon
5:48 Sava Dream maker (nightmare maker)
6:12 Wheel mechatronics
6:34 EXS
7:53 Fake Fox Factory forks
8:02 LTWOOOOOO!! madness
11:23 STREN Carbon spokes
12:26 Farsports
12:51 NTN Europe
14:38 Winspace new MEGA wheels
15:46 Elite Wheels & Interviewing
18:36 Worlds lightest Thru Axles?
19:27 Cybrei Carbon cranks
20:10 Classified meeting
21:08 Campagnolo Super Record
21:40 Tricktsuff
22:17 Pinion E-Drive interview
24:13 E-Bike QC issues?!
25:42 Croder modular crank systems
26:53 Koga Kinsei Aero bike
Thanks again, to all the Patrons.
Patreon.com/peaktorque
Thanks to Veloforte for feeding me! 20% off for all PT viewers using the code
PeakT-20 at tidd.ly/45uc9Db
PT Merch: peak-torque.com
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Control tyre (GP5000) - tidd.ly/3GEF512
Powermeter (Assioma) - tidd.ly/3Z98OXb
Reference powermeter (quarq) - tidd.ly/3WJx9Bn
Head unit:
amzn.to/3C5xMwQ - UK link
amzn.to/3G3sEKM - US link
105 Rim brake holy grail groupset bargain - tidd.ly/3BNlkSb - Věda a technologie
"ntn would have to reduce their standards to get into the bike industry" got me good.
If NTN don't reduce their standards, people will keep complaining that they are overpriced. Somehow everyone want quality without paying for it 🤷
Two companies that are a study in marketing and engineering. Classified's "we have secret sauce" vs Pinion "here are all the nuts and bolts". When I read Classified's claims I immediately dismissed them and was assumed they were paying for all the reviews. Pinion, I'm impressed with and think they have solid offering for the market.
They do have secret sauce BUT
1. Its in their patent descriptions
2. Its in pieces on a Shimano engineer's desk, guaranteed.
Understandably they are very proud, and having gone through the patents, the gear actuation system by coil induction is really, really neat. But nothing is a secret when it's published in a patent.
Hasn't the classified hub been shipping for a couple of years now? I don't understand why they are so cagey about a teardown when presumably anyone could go out and buy one and take it apart.
@@Your_Paramour that's exactly what we said to them
Pinion have essentially no competition. And the bar is extremely low for a gearbox.
@@mitchellsteindler Valeo, Mahle, Effigear are all players now. Quite big competition. Very big companies with a lot of cash.
0:00 Intro
3:46 Trigon
5:48 Sava Dream maker (nightmare maker)
6:12 Wheel mechatronics
6:34 EXS
7:53 Fake Fox Factory forks
8:02 LTWOOOOOO!! madness
11:23 STREN Carbon spokes
12:26 Farsports
12:51 NTN Europe
14:38 Winspace new MEGA wheels
15:46 Elite Wheels & Interviewing
18:36 Worlds lightest Thru Axles?
19:27 Cybrei Carbon cranks
20:10 Classified meeting
21:08 Campagnolo Super Record
21:40 Tricktsuff
22:17 Pinion E-Drive interview
24:13 E-Bike QC issues?!
25:42 Croder modular crank systems
26:53 Koga Kinsei Aero bike
20:12 Hambini priceless silence!
Sound 10/10 robo cop talking to 1970 walky talky
🤑 first camera died due to overheating. Then the phone decided to overblow the plug in Rode mic gain totally on some clips and completely underdo it on others. Spent ages with low/hi pass and dialogue leveler trying to fix it. Should have heard the originals. Unfortunately I don't have a team of GCN media guys to sort this shit for me. Just a backpack with toiletries, some sweaty tshirts and a stale brezel in it. Fuckin media!
A cheaper alternative to Shimano and Sram is exactly what the bike industry needs. Im super excited to see what LTWOO eRX will be in a year or two.
GCN are touching non of these booth! it almost feel like you boys went to different show!
Because GCN will only ever show their sponsors stands.
All i know is being a cycling media person for 2.5 days and making shoddy content like this and editing it is quite tiring 🥹
Who cares? GCN’s opinions are about as meaningful as a bowl of stone soup.
Now if I’m in need of marketing hype, as opposed to meaningful information, then GCN are the go to guys. 😂
The gmbn content was pretty good, because of doddy mainly. Great journalist. Unlike me and my chopstick mic 😂
@@bill8791Trek, Orbea and Specialized my bollox
Nice vid mate
A stallholders reaction to seeing you and Hambini walking towards them must be very telling. "Oh shit! They're walking this way"! = 'We know our product needs work, and hope they don't spot it. VS "Oh hey, come in and chat" = 'We know our product is so good we can't wait for you to see it because we know that you, of anyone, will appreciate it's.
However smart they may be, youve got to feel it for the young marketing people when PT and Hambini rock up😖
@peaktorque the pinion mounting standard accounts for frame width tolerance, at least on the p and c series anyway. It has 6 mount points. One is fixed and the rest are pressfit steel bushings which come out to match frame width. Its a neat solution. Pinion is so well engineered. Im riding a box from the first batch 10 years ago.
Your videos make me want to get on my bike and go for a ride. I love your passion!
Thanks for going to Eurobike. Fantastic!
this is the next best thing than actually being there - thanks for the tour and interesting bits
Would be cool if you gave the Ltwoo hydraulic stuff a chance sometime, it looks promising
Thanks for the best video ive seen so far of eurobike ❤
golden channel! guy who can shred and is interested in the engineering of things!! love it
Holy moly some great guest stars in this one :D
The Round Table of Critical Thought! Love it!
20:18 my favourite moment in this whole video. the face says it all
Never seen @hambini being so shy.
Great vid mate, had a good laugh with the mic quality haha
🤑 first camera died due to overheating. Then the phone decided to overblow the rode mic gain totally on some clips and completely underdo it on others. Spent ages with low/hi pass and dialogue leveler trying to fix it. Should have heard the originals. Unfortunately I don't have a team of GCN media guys to sort this shit for me. Just a backpack with toiletries, some sweaty tshirts and a stale brezel in it. Fuckin media!
@@PeakTorque You still covered more of the show than GShillN did that's a win i my book mate
The shimano roast 🔥🥵🔥
Noting the aero Koga, have you ever done a deep dive on the Ribble Ultra SLR? Would be super interesting
I wish NTN / SKF would directly supply bearings to bike retailers ... it'd make getting hold of genuine, quality bearings so much easier, and also eat most of the ceramic snake oil market.
Nice one matey
Please do a Croder adjustable cranks bike fit soon
140mm is intriguing
I'm communicating with them now. Really nice couple i met at the show.
Best video on Eurobike 2023 I‘ve seen so far!
Cheers dude. That makes me feel like it was worth the trip and all the shoddy filming!
More comprehensive than GCN. Well done.
Awesome video PT - are ltwoo going to make the eRX compatible with rim brake? Or just disc for the moment?
Only disc. There is a gravel version soon to be released
Seeing somebody sit down and say “don’t talk shit” to their face is the most refreshing thing I’ve had the pleasure of seeing recently
Would love to see a Scope review, they look nice!
Actually the openness of @elitewheels to sent peak torque wheels for testing and actually working on his suggestions made me buy a set. Seeing them now sitting down with peak torque and a camera actually confirmed my initial impression that it is a brand that wants to make good wheels for a good price and that they believe in their product. What can I say. I am super happy with my wheelset. I put it on my Specialized Diverge and damn, my donkey bike turned into a racing steed!
I noticed your early vids were in Hongkong. I lived there for 8 years, great place to get perspective on China.
Intriguing! Which German brands are working with FarSports to make OEM stuff?
Man that Koga looks fast!!
That EXS stem with Garmin mount looks clean AF. $200 though for what is a branded UNO stem with a Garmin mount. Those cost $20 without the mount. I just wish I could find a mount like that for it somewhere
Everybody talkin' 'bout Pinion, but did you check Valeo motor-gearbox unit? How would they compare?
And what about the plethora of gear hubs - are you making a seperate video? Because there is plenty to unpack too
Great video PT. Best Eurobike video I ever seen. Very nice to see some of the faces behind the scenes.
10:22 very true statement and my biggest issue with some Asian brands. I like experimental stuff and bought a lot of things from Ali, but many products just seem that were pushed in the market while in beta.
Glad you enjoyed it! Sorry about the shit mic quality.
Nice video, thanks 🙌
Croder cranks look promising, they could be used for rehabilitation purposes and on a home trainer bike to play with a length.
I have one of their modular cranksets in 155mm. Not great machining and the spindle attachment to the crank arm is too loose in my set. Creak started after 1,5 years. LBS overtightned them to compensate only to ruin the BB bearings. I created a 'shim' of sorts to create a tighter interface that sorted the creaks, but I'll go for Rotor next time.
Trickstuff pedal body at 22:10 was the most interesting.
I’d really like to see more info on the trigon wheels
Hey PT, regarding aero efficiency, have you ever thought about testing/reviewing velomobiles? They got an unfair tratment on GCN in my opinion and not many people are into them which, interestingly, seems to be related to innovation bans by the uci in the early 20c. There is content out there but all lifestyle and marketing, seemingly nothing from the engineering pov.
Would be interesting to see your long time review of that Koga Aero bike 🧐
If they want to sponsor another tall guy im all ears!
Those l-twoo erx cable connectors look very similar to the first generation Shimano 7970 Di2.
Spied the fully integrated fork for the TCR from the EXS cycling stand. They look to be offering an interesting range, shame about the distribution and exposure. I think they are touching on popular markets with nice looking products. I wonder if they gave you any more information on the fork?
We did talk about the fork but not much info, bit of a language barrier unfortunately. Will work on my mandarin skills this year before the next one.
@@PeakTorque 😂 I should think so too… high expectations
Surely 50/34 on the SR wireless with a 10 tooth sprocket IS a pretty sizeable gear for a racer.. 55/11 etc etc
I own a trigon, the dimples are in the paint, not the carbon. And you can fit 32 very comfortably in them. Very responsive bike. Worth a test ride
Here’s a novel idea, high end, lightweight, carbon direct mount rim-brake frames.
Bonding on those WS Mega spokes and hubs looks very rough - as if slapped on with a large paintbrush.
This was great coverage. Very nice. I know that the cycling industry's use of carbon fiber is nothing like other industries but what is your opinion about the non- recyclability of carbon fiber? Does it worry you at all or do you think it's not really a problem?
It is a bit worrying, it can be chopped up and used in other moulded composites, without the original strength of the continuous fibre parts. It can't really be truly re-cycled back to the original component like Alu can.
@@PeakTorque Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. Perhaps over time, additive manufacturing with recycled and recyclable materials will take over. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to 3D print Ti aero wheels. It would be an interesting experiment.
Wonder how good ltwoo would be if you slap on a shimanop cassette and chain
Work well. And with SRAM cassette also for both the road version and the gravel version.
8:45 you can remove background noise if you want through Nvidia RTX Voice - some youtubers do that on these conference floors
Oh snap, that's Alee from Cyclingabout at the Koga booth.
Yep! We had a chat afterwards! Another tall guy, gave my neck a rest from looking down all day :)
Hambini speechless? Never thought I'd see the day.
I think he was trying desperately to avoid PT for some reason
Curious how they do the golf ball dimples, and if that has any compromise on the carbon layup
BTW the best Eurobike report by FAR
Cheers dude. No, pretty sure its final layer on top just gives the surface texture.
ZED wheels, hand-built in the UK 👌🏻
Eurobike 2023? I have one of those I bought on eBay! Good to hear they are state of the art, I knew I got a good deal.
Does the Pinion motor sit in a light oil bath? Looks just like when you split the cases on a single cylinder off-road bike. I can’t imagine that gear box running completely dry. I’d imagine there would be some accelerated wear otherwise? 🤷🏻♂️
I think they do, well they do on there older non electric models
Yes and that's about the only maintenance they need, Pinion claims
I'm glad you went public with the cost of the getting adverts on the main BS players
The gears inside the pinion gearbox is absolutely massive straight cut gears you would think is made for a GP superbike. It is no way that is necessary for the torque a bicycle produses. So there must be a big potential to reduce weight and size of the gearbox.
Please do review Croder products
7:55 me and my mates joke about chinese made products and we always say "best price" in a stereo typical way. And they have it as a advertising slogan. Im in tears 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Great recap. I enjoyed meeting you and learning more about different technologies. 😊
I'm curious about more details on Classified. The shifting experience was great.
By the way, I stopped by the L-Twoo for the second time the next day, and the shifting was smoother. Supposedly they should have adjusted it better. 😅
Btw. 2: I also stopped at the Koga bike and thought the same thing. How can that bike be UCI approved when it has such a wide headtube and fork. 😀 I looked at the official document now, and this bike is not there. They have several UCI-approved models. I guess they just changed the sticker. 🤣
Wow, interesting! I didnt measure the tubes but the HT seemed deeper than 80mm. Good to meet you too, welcome for a ride over here!
regarding pinion and the tolerances of the frame manufactorer. pinion actually made the holes for mounting the gearbox to the frame not rigid, they use bushings (on some of the bolts). So that mounting bracket tolerance and paint doesnt matter. its therefore important to tighten them in the right order. i cant talk about the new mgu (because there is no info yet on anything).
i can imagine the doing hte same with the mgu (like shimano does with their motors)
Yeh i saw a few with semi compliant bushings, but they are still very rigid axially. Radially they definitely provide some damping/vibration relief. On some Shimano ep8 units the threads are completely rigid (no bushings) if I'm not mistaken.
@@PeakTorque you might be right on the ep8. Don't think I've ever took one out of a frame. But the 6100 has threaded bushings on one side (don't remember on which)
What were your first impressions of the Scope wheels in comparison to similar priced wheelsets ?
Will hopefully get some in for test. Sapim spokes, star ratchet type hub or a lower end 3 pawl version, Xiamen rim. So pretty standard, but the build quality looked very polished.
Scope wheels have SKF bearings fitted as standard, so at least this let's them stand out from the rest. Money to wheight ratio is not top notch but still okay.
@@Aniqa101 wow. They didn't even mention to me that, despite telling them i was in it for the engineering. Now im super interesante!
gotta love the shimano roast
Berria, Rotor didn't have to show I believe.
Could the audio be any worse? Recorded on a gopro1?
The cracked pinion bike 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 manufacturing excellence
YES to the Trigon integrated climbing shifters. Why has no one done this before? I genuinely dislike zip tying crap all over my handlebars.
Exactly, very neat and simple solution. They shrugged their shoulders as to why no-one has done it before!
4:18 carbon dimples, Ferrari F50 circa 1995
I want a minimalistic urban folder with 20" wheels and a pinion MGU for less than 1k. Lets gooo
Show us some LightBicycle!
Great, interesting. 👍🏻
“Tyre clearance is not great, only 28s, maybe you could squeeze a 32 in there?”
Only thing I don’t understand is why anyone would want to put 32mm tyres on a “road bike.” If your roads are that bad then maybe it’s not a road bike you need? My road bike runs 23s and my gravel bike runs 37mm 🤷🏻♂️
That gronewegen joke was dark af
I have been half expecting a piece from you about Ocean Gate and the (mis)use of carbon fibre rather than steel for the tub of the submersible
Wound CF tube....great in tension but not so good in compression. However apparently it had made 10 trips down to full depth prior.
@PeakTorque so is it true it would just continually weaken after each trip ?
@@gourami7 Impossible to say. CF is very hard to simulate particularly in compressiom. There many mismatched materials here, Ti, CF, Plexiglass all with bonded and bolted joints that expand and contract at different stiffnesses and rates. Not a nice solution. Theres a reason they use very basic, thick steel structures with tiny port holes. It is easy to predict. With a wound CF structure you have so many fault lines and there could be a little void or delamination starting and even with the best NDT you may never see it.
So strange to see Hambini so speechless! Probably one of the most interesting eurobike videos i've seen, and i don't mean just 2023! Kinda reminds me of what Gamers Nexus got up to at computex with their "faces behind the brands" angle, albeit at a smaller scale.
Would definitely put a warning up for headphone users though, holy shit. If you're gonna stick a lapel mic on a chopstick, don't then proceed to actually stick it down your gob while you speak!
Sony app ruined the gain and it was non adjustable. Absolute junk setup! Cheers though
Any German e-bike motor companies on show? I chatted to some German guys at the tour down under a few years promoting their wares. That Elite trainer casing colour reminded me of my Bosch hammer drill colour. That pinion gear box is quite big hopefully they can get the unit size down.
You can't just shrink a gearbox. And the motor already is very small, the whole unit is only slightly larger than a Brose/Bosch/Yamaha motor. Maybe they can team up with TQ, another german e-bike motor brand.
audio recorded with modular synth rack due to suitcase mix up
I think we know the Classified claims are Snake Oil ... there's no way they accidentally tested at ultra low power, and high cadence - thereby ensuring super low torque.
We will go full circle and manufacturers will go for lightweight, thick cross section carbon, rim brake, shallow wheels.
Asked the lady at the Stren stand if they're selling directly to consumers but unfortunately only b2b at the moment.
For a moment, I thought that the fishing line company had decided to expand into spoke manufacturing.
That campy rear mech is clearly Italian.
Helpful to see this video and know that I won't ever be going to eurobike to see a bunch of chinese and taiwanese products.
To talk about round bb holes, then discover the crack in the E bike frame! Priceless! What would the average consumer be saddled with? NTN shouldn't sell to the bicycle industry!
is that CYCLINGABOUT dude at 26:50?
Yep
Did you use a stick as a microphone? LOL Get the rode or dji mics . I learned the hard way going to trade show and all the noise
🤑 first camera died due to overheating. Then the phone decided to overblow the rode mic gain totally on some clips and completely underdo it on others. Spent ages with low/hi pass and dialogue leveler trying to fix it. Should have heard the originals. Unfortunately I don't have a team of GCN media guys to sort this shit for me. Just a backpack with toiletries, some sweaty tshirts and a stale brezel in it. Fuckin media!
Campi's latest offering is so disappointing. Their whole shtick is over-engineered aesthetic performance road, and they should have leaned into that more with beautiful mech groupsets (rim and disc offerings), instead of their oversized overweight grotesque electronic groupset which learnt all the wrong lessons from sram.
Kinda surprised not to see more offerings in the narrow handlebar game. I ended up just coughing up the cash for Enve's Ses Aero in 35 cm width. Brilliant product but the price...
Why didnt elite send Sukie!
@6:30 Post a vid and let the viewers decide. Come to think of it, you could post it as a 'short' 😉
Thanks for the coverage, but the news it brings is sad. Regarding conventional (non-E) bikes, there's little new that seems truly useful. It's all about light weight and high tech at the expense of longevity, durability and serviceability with little or no practical benefit. If you're a GC contender in the Tour, the marginal gains may be worth an expensive bike that barely lasts the season. But for anyone else it's counterproductive. Looks like cycling reached its peak years ago and the future is only more expensive and gimmicky.
Cycling could peak again if the would back track to the 1980's and produce quality parts that made sense. The general cyclist doesn't need 12 cogs or disc brakes on road bikes. Carbon is proving more and more to be a shit material for bicycles. I'm in my 60's and I'm riding less and less these days so I'm done buying bikes and I'm kind of happy about that because of their cost and shit quality.
@@charlesmansplaining you can add agesplaining to that.
Best euro out there. Keep it going.
Next year im going to take an intern with some proper camera equipment that doesn't overheat and a better mic 😂
Why do strain gauges have hysteresis?
Visco elastic creep of the adhesive and gauge film. Its tiny. But its there. If you apply a load and leave it, the strain slowly slowly decays. Its tiny.
Amazing how they made a lousy tolerance frame for simple mountings in 2023 which I'm sure it don't come cheap either.
the pinion stuff clearly isn't for bicycles, it's for heavy cargo cycle vehicles which currently are not catered to by the industry at all.
Yeah looks seriously bloated. Their non electric units are a nice size
There's an eMTB market where this would fit. You can also see the non-bike variants on Schindelhauer bikes
Koga states Kinsei fits 32mm tires.
Fits and clearance. Two different things! Yes it fits but any slight flex or a stone and rub the chainstays goodbye
16:05 Hello?
EXS makes great products. Have their 150 gram carbon handlebar. Plenty stiff and no issues
Nice Casio Calculator watch mate, but this is beginner’s stuff: you can do much MUCH better with real ones from the 80´s. Like some SOLAR CALCULATOR watch from Casio. They did some. Many in silver (CL 301) few in black plastic if that’s more your thing: the Casio CL30. I expect more edgy, rare, original pieces from you Peak
mic completely scuffed ugh
The audio is so bad I cant tell if it is a meme or not.
A free trip to german strip clubs, wow im in the wrong industry!