Nonsense. Mozart never makes any mention of Joseph Haydn's compositional prowess in the dedication letter of the six quartets. (Because Joseph Haydn was simply a "buddy" in the quartet gatherings, nothing more.) Mozart completed string duos for Michael to fulfill a commission Michael Haydn was unable to due to illness. Face it, Joseph Haydn is mostly a prankster. In fact, one can tell how overrated he is by looking at how much he was trashed throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.
@@jackjack3320 Simply repeating one’s opinions ad nauseam ad infinitum does not make them any more valid than keeping them to oneself. Everyone is entitled to opinions however ill-informed they be, but in this case, you are simply mistaken. That said, if you don’t like the music of Haydn - that’s cool. Appreciating music is rather like appreciating food, a personal choice but hardly an exact science. PS. Your reply does not appear to bear any relation to the comments above, but appears as something of a premeditated rant.
@@elaineblackhurst1509Evidently the myth of Haydn as a prankster/joker is hard lived. It all goes back to one or two comments 200 years ago. Like there is one painting with Napoleon wearing a certain hat and afterwards he is depicted in every movie allways wearing that same hat. The argument that Haydn is not so good " because everyone in the 19th century thought so" is also funny: inverted we might say " Elvis Presley is a great composer because millions like(d) him"😅
@@christianwouters6764 The point about Haydn and humour is repeated ad nauseam ad infinitum with little thought by people who think they are being clever but in fact do not know what they are talking about. There is humour in Haydn, as there is in Mozart and Beethoven, but not to a degree that it needs over-emphasising as it often is Much of what appears to be humour in Haydn is in fact playful ingenuity - or ingenious playfulness - (usually with motifs), or else is derived directly from opera buffa, rather in the manner of Mozart’s Symphony 35 K385 (‘Haffner’) which in parts is pure opera buffa; it is this that explains much of the ‘humour’ (or rather ‘buffa’) found in number of middle-period Haydn symphonies in particular. Much of the above is really not understood as is demonstrated by simplistic CZcams generalisations to be found all over the place, much to the detriment of proper critical analysis, and more importantly, to a proper understanding of Haydn. Additionally of course, much of the perceived ‘humour’ has extra-musical origins as in the sixth movement of Symphony 60 where the re-tuning moment in fact relates directly to the stage action, much the same way that Mendelssohn has braying donkeys in his Midsummer Night’s Dream music; neither are humour for humour’s sake.
Paul Bunyan You probably don’t realise what a profound observation you have just made. Mendelssohn conducted this symphony at one of his ‘historical’ Gewandhaus concerts in Leipzig on 22 February 1838, the same series he revived many of the forgotten JS Bach works. The performance was a sensational success, Mendelssohn organised the blowing out of candles and exits exactly as Haydn had done. Following the concert, Mendelssohn wrote to his sister about the symphony and performance which had moved him profoundly; he told her that he found it a ‘...curiously melancholy little piece’. In short: that puts you and Mendelssohn on the same wavelength, and it’s a pleasure to read your perceptive comment which stands in stark contrast to so many comments about this powerful work from listeners who mistakenly perceive that they hear something humorous, comic, or amusing.
@@elaineblackhurst1509whoever you are, Elaine, you always have the best comments and i love running into you in comment sections because so often i learn something new
School of Composition It is extremely unlikely that the ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) influenced Mozart, perhaps maybe it was known to Beethoven (it is the greatest single work of through-composition and cyclic integration prior to Beethoven’s 5th written 36 years later). This is a quintessential ‘sturm und drang’ type symphony; as such it has very particular characteristics and was written in 1772 which falls within the Viennese ‘sturm und drang’ period which was specifically between c.1765 - 1775. Haydn wrote about nineteen symphonies with a greater or lesser degree of ‘sturm und drang’ features; most obviously evident in the minor key works such as Symphonies 26, 39, 44, 45, 49 and 52. Mozart wrote only one ‘sturm und drang type work* - Symphony 25 (K183) which was modelled on Haydn Symphony 39; Beethoven, being born in 1770, obviously wrote no works in this style. The minor key music of Mozart - apart from K183 - and Beethoven, like the post-1775 minor key works of Haydn are *not* sturm und drang, so it is difficult to identify the influence. The minor key music of Mozart and Haydn outside the dates given - and Beethoven from much later - is something very different. Other than that, you’re absolutely right; an awesome, indeed unparalleled masterpiece. * You could possibly add on some of the 1773 bits of his Thamos music (K345) as well.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Yes, thank you Elaine. But the influence of Sturm und Drang and its features lasted far longer than the official period. I don't know if you have the same experience but I can hear SO much Beethoven here. Of course it probably didn't happen historically, but I could imagine a young Beethoven attending a performance of this symphony and it having lasting effects on him. I love this symphony precisely because of that.
School of Composition Thank you for your reply - it’s an interesting debate. I really don’t think the influence of sturm und drang did much outlast the period I indicated between c.1765 and 1775. From the mid-1770’s composers including Haydn struggled for a while to find a new way with the symphony and until he found that new way, some of his symphonies are amongst the least original and cool of the whole 104. Post-sturm und drang, some composers actually went backwards (Vanhal), or became rapidly old-fashioned (Dittersdorf); it was only when he got to Vienna from 1781 that Mozart’s symphonies found a new level. Not all minor key music of the Classical period is sturm und drang which has very specific characteristics and features, many of which are absent in Mozart and Beethoven. What you hear in composers such as Mozart, Kraus and Beethoven is certain elements of sturm und drang that were inherent to their own general style rather than being specifically sturm und drang per se. Mozart’s g minor Symphony 40 (K550) written in 1788, or Beethoven’s 5th Symphony first performed in 1808 for example, owe almost nothing to such a dated phenomenon as sturm und drang, but everything to the composers’ particular and very new takes on minor key music. Haydn who wrote all the greatest examples of music in this style also found a totally new minor key voice in works such as the string quartets Opus 33 No 1; Opus 50 No 4; Opus 55 No 2 et cetera; along with works such as the later minor key symphonies, piano trios and the profound Andante con variazioni in f minor (Hob. XVII:6) which is one of the greatest keyboard works of the Classical period. None of these works owe anything to sturm und drang, Haydn - like Mozart and Beethoven - had moved on. That said, you are quite right about the influence of Haydn on Beethoven who knew a number of his works intimately - Beethoven copied out the whole of the string quartet Opus 20 No 1 and sections of the Symphony 99 for example, and was with Haydn at Eisenstadt in 1793 whilst Haydn was composing the string quartets Opus 71/74. Evidence of a deep knowledge and understanding of Haydn - and Mozart - is clearly evident in Beethoven’s thinking. The impact of these private and more informal studies and discussions between Haydn and Beethoven, along with a significant number of joint concerts in Vienna in the two or three years after Haydn returned from his second London visit were far more important than the well known and not particularly successful formal counterpoint lessons given between Haydn’s two trips to England. The debt Beethoven owed to Haydn was significantly greater than he usually cared to admit. Hope that helps.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I can hear a very strong influence on Mozart in this symphony, but not on his symphonies. His string quintets for example, the less well known ones, and the early violin concerti, follow quite similar approaches to the final movement of this symphony. I have not checked dates of composition to see which came first, but I suspect Haydn did!
Yes it is, but not at the expense of distracting from the *musical* genius of what is without question one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century - indeed of all time. If you can get beyond the pantomime of the exiting musicians, the resolution into F# major at the end of the Finale is a musical apotheosis of a carefully planned and musically very satisfying journey through 3rd-related keys;* it is the only proper resolution of anything in the entire symphony; it is an extraordinary work in every respect. * Haydn Symphony 45 tonal journey: 1st movement f# minor (with delayed second subject/interlude in D major that appears unprecedentedly in the development rather than the normal exposition). 2nd movement A major 3rd movement F# major - f# minor - F# major 4th movement f# minor - A major - F# major
Marvelous how the miserable feelings of the members of the orchestra, because of prolonged and involuntary separation from their loved ones, inspired Haydn to create the moving melody of the final movement. Imagine if we were all, to a man artists and had this ability. To conjure flowers out of dirty soil.
Beware! In the video the cover says it's in "f sharp major" whereas it's f sharp MINOR! The title of the video is right. Just in case, make sure you'll remember right, and don't get confused! ;)
@@realnigga19 Maybe you are right, but this piece has became known as in F-sharp minor key. (Also, it is true, that the piece starts with an F-shap minor chord, and at the end after modulation it ends with a F-sharp major triad).
Fanni Kovács You are quite correct; this symphony is in f# minor. That said, the whole work is actually notable for its controlled tonal instability, along with some non-standard modulations, and deliberately weak cadences leaving the music hanging in the air occurring throughout - it only really resolves in the final 22 bars of pure F# major played by the two remaining violinists. However, as is quite common with Haydn, his symphonies often move through a carefully planned journey of related keys - often 3rd-related - it is a compositional idea Beethoven took from Haydn and is evident in many of his works as well, one well known example is explained below. It’s worth pointing out that the journey through 3rd-related keys in this work is often a journey from instability to delayed or postponed stability, from question to answer; closure is always denied, except at the very end of the symphony. This symphony follows a pattern, as does Symphony 95 in c minor which resolves into C major, the purpose and pattern of the tonal journey in Haydn 95 is clearly the model for Beethoven 5 which also starts in c minor but ends in C major and whose journey there is almost identical to the Haydn model - the single difference being a slightly different 3rd-related slow movement. In Haydn’s Symphony 45, the tonic minor (f#), is off-set by the relative major (A), and tonic major (F#), along with one or two other diversions too, for example, into c# minor, and of course, the revolutionary first movement ‘interlude’ or ‘delayed second subject’ in D major in the first movement development section. Haydn Symphony 45 in f# minor (‘Farewell’) tonal journey: 1st movement: f# minor 2nd movement: A major 3rd movement: F# major Note that in in the first cycle of 3rd-related keys, closure is *denied* at the end of each movement; for example, listen to the whispy figure at the end of each part of the Minuet just leaving the music hanging, or the truncated cut-off of the Presto section of the Finale. 4th movement: Presto - f# minor Adagio, first part - A major Adagio, second part - F# major. In the repeated sequence of identical keys, but here condensed into a single movement, in this cycle, closure is *achieved,* but only in the final 22 bars of pure F# major, not in the first two sections where it is again twice more denied. It is an ethereal apotheosis as powerful as that of Beethoven at the end of his 5th symphony, but is achieved with just the remaining two violins. The ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) as a whole, is the greatest single work of through-composition, and cyclic unity and integration by any composer prior to Beethoven’s 5th (1808). Hope that helps those who have replied to your original comment, the essential read on this work is James Webster’s forensic 400 page study into the work: Haydn’s ‘Farewell’ Symphony and the Idea of Classical Style (1991).
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I am correct. It doesn't really matter in this case, how the modulation goes, in classical music history it is known as F sharp minor. It is its title, it think it is useless argue about how the tonality goes. I just wanted to make sure that if someone has to recall by ear knows the title correctly. As a music student all I wanted to make the title clear.
❤1 часть Экспозиция тгп 00:17 тпп 2:43 Разработка 1й раздел D dur 3:20 Реприза тгп 3:57 тпп ❤2ч ТГП A dur 5:14 ТПП E dur 6:09 ❤3ч основной раздел Fis 13:53 трио Fis 15:17 ❤4.1ч Экспозиция ТГП 17:21 ТПП A dur 18:46 ❤4.2ч ТГП A dur 20:06
0:00 - (Introduction) 0:15 - I. Allegro assai 5:13 - II. Adagio 13:52 - III. Meenuetto, Allegretto 17:20 - IV. Finale 20:04 - IV. (cont.) Adagio [Farewell]
This symphony is a wounded dragon that gets stabbed at the beginning of the first movement and refuses to die, but writhing in its last agonies and in the coda in the fourth movement at 22:50, bleeding to death and at 24:24 the final chords are its dying breath.
what a strange final movement, seems to end on a recapitulation, then goes to adagio and players walk out. it's really obscure, i don't know of any other classical pieces which do anything similar
Yelooh The history behind it is very fascinating as well! Haydn's employer, Prince Nicholaus Esterhazy had decided to stay at his summer palace in rural Hungary longer than expected, which was a day's travel away from the homes of the musicians, meaning they couldn't visit their families for so long. They asked Haydn for help in getting home so he composed this symphony, the only classical symphony to be composed in F# Minor, as a message to Esterhazy. And it worked, as the very next day after the performance, the court began to pack for home.
There's actually another work which does something similar: Schnittke's Symphony No.1. Schnittke includes a choreography for the musicians themselves, and in a manner similar to Haydn's Farewell Symphony, leave and re-enter the stage at points marked in the score.
We met before on another video, and talked about this. I ask you again: "Have you given Mozart enough chance?" Mozart Masses, Litanies, Vespers czcams.com/video/GJ9k5ynt6pI/video.html Mozart String Quartets, Quintets czcams.com/video/YMFppKL1A4k/video.html Maurerische Tauermusik: czcams.com/video/4A1JlAx3vy0/video.html Keyboard pieces: K608: czcams.com/video/Jkh8Re4JUCw/video.html K399: czcams.com/video/0sTcpzyyST0/video.html K394: czcams.com/video/m9vVu8rNON4/video.html K475: czcams.com/video/UCdek-1aM0I/video.html K397: czcams.com/video/kQJ7UsxZ278/video.html K511: czcams.com/video/I0CzPGo9ZFg/video.html K401: czcams.com/video/WGBvNMe9TOo/video.html K396: czcams.com/video/g3A5YBQJ0Zg/video.html K594: czcams.com/video/Qka_HMc2ajc/video.html Analysis videos: Bernstein explans Mozart's 40th symphony czcams.com/video/g0ZE38BQmvQ/video.html Magnificent Counterpoint in the Finale of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony: czcams.com/video/YTxYykhQZbI/video.html The Ingenious Fugal Finale of Mozart's G Major Quartet, K. 387: czcams.com/video/uoXDHOyfJ-k/video.html The Incredible Finale of Mozart's K. 590 Quartet in F Major: czcams.com/video/nkbdUjjfRTQ/video.html Invertible Counterpoint in the Finale of Mozart's D Major String Quintet, K. 593: czcams.com/video/IQbxsGtyc2g/video.html Mozart's Deceptive Simplicity -Rob Kapilow czcams.com/video/F1rrYngbtyo/video.html Piano Concerto No.20 in D minor K466 1st movement: czcams.com/video/UEsbwYL-eHA/video.html
@Riastrad I find this quite inspired by vivaldi. Simple thematic development, crunchy textures, reliance on circles of fifths. Not his best work. Funnily enough his most stunning symphonies were written after mozarts final 3, and show a lot of his influence. 93, 94, 97, 102, 103, 104 all have a decidedly post-mozartean style
@@elaineblackhurst1509 the only thing better than someone who completely agrees with you is someone who doesnt! In what way do you disagree? lets discuss
Anyone laughing at the end has simply demonstrated publically a breathtaking ignorance, that they have no understanding whatsoever of the music, and that they have missed the apotheosis of one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century, indeed of all time.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 ummm, Haydn was notoriously funny, and he actually wrote a joke into the final movement of this symphony, where each orchestra member slowly and quietly gets up and walks off stage as the finale is playing until there is one violinists left. He called this the "farewell" symphony because the emperor didn't release the servants to leave timely that season. So you have displayed your ignorance of this masterpiece, pretentious doufus
@@vitorpetri1376 If you look through some other recording of of this symphony, I have explained at length why the pantomime of the exiting musicians is simply a visual distraction from then musical apotheosis of the work as it resolves for the first time in the whole symphony into the purest F# major in the final 22 bars; there is no resolution anywhere in the work of any sort before those final bars. (Listen to the whispy little tails at the end of each section of the Minuet that just leaves the music hanging in the air). Additionally, the ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) is the greatest single work of through-composition and cyclic integration before Beethoven’s 5th (1808). You will find my comments elsewhere easily enough, though the two on the Haydn 2032 channel performance of Haydn Symphony 45 - a must if you want to learn more - are a good starting place. Hope that’s helpful.
hard to tell a more simple and concise movement of symphony than this first one. I could mention the G Major Symphony of George Benda, and guess Haydn had this in mind. Principally when quoting this ascendent harmonic scale motive
Comparing the most important symphony of cyclic integration and through-composition prior to Beethoven’s 5th written 36 years later, one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century - indeed of all time - with anything by Benda, is as absurd as it is deluded as it is mistaken. The 1st movement which you have completely misunderstood and libelled ‘…hard to tell a more simple…movement’, actually contains one of the most radical innovations in the entire symphonic repertoire with the delay of the second subject (a sort of D major interlude) to the development of the movement, rather than it appearing in the normal exposition.
Mozart 30 (1774) was written only two years after Haydn 45, so the chances of Mozart knowing it are slim, especially as he didn’t first meet Haydn until about 10 years later. Additionally of course, the works are so entirely different in character that they share almost nothing in common.
As another comment already states, in the final movement the players get out of the stage one by one (as can be seen in the score: it begins with the full orchestra and ends with only two violins). In the performance used in this video, the audience laughs when the conductor also gets off the stage, even though the piece doesn't specify so.
The piece is written by Haydn because his count Esterhazy refused the musicians to take vacation. So he told all his musicians to leave the stage when their part has ended. As you can see in the scores, almost all lines end before the piece itself is finished, when only haydn himself and the first violin stayed at stage. As I think, there wasn't even a conductor in esterhazy, because the orchestra was rather small and one of the best at this time. And if there was one, I think, even Haydn would have written the line you mentioned. The count, is reported, understood haydns hidden message and accepted the musicians insists for holidays. To fully understand this you have to understand which power and habits counts had in this period, which is known as the period of "absolutism" in europe. As I read here, there is also Mozart in discussion, which had an even more agressive style to accuse these things, as some of his operas even have been forbidden by the german kaiser himself. Mostly known are "la cavatine di figaro" (Figaros Hochzeit) [right of the first night], "don giovanni" [don juan/guiltyness of women in all sex crimes] and "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" [local property > human rights] in this purpose. (if you consider that the habits which are only shown in the oriental part of this "singspiel" were actually reality in almost every noble house in europe at this time) As mozart was a scholar of haydn he learned a lot of him, expecially how to "surprise" the audience. Which i think haydn is still in the undisputed master because of the finesse how he included this to almost every piece of music he wrote. And why haydn was so loved by the british when he made tours with his last 24 symphonies. (he wrote more than 100 and even stravinsky wouldn't mention he wrote the same more than even 10 times) Haydn is still underrated for his music, but even more, as he influenced at least two of the greatest composers of all time. Mozart and Beethoven would never have been so great without haydn. And he's the composer of german national anthem: "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" :D.
There's a plethora of F-sharp minor and major pieces for the piano. Infact a lot of late 18th and 19th century composers were very fond of writing in uncommon keys. F# minor, C# minor (NEVER Db minor), G# minor, and B were all given a lot of attention. As far as classical symphonic works, yeah its limited, but solo instruments used these keys to the fullest.
@@Froboy1100 Much of what you have suggested is true of the nineteenth century as a whole, but is wholly inaccurate regarding the eighteenth century where excursions even beyond four sharps or three flats were relatively uncommon. In the Classical period (c1750 - 1800), Haydn is tonally markedly more adventurous than Mozart.
@@Froboy1100 I have yet to locate any full piece of Beethoven's, in any medium, that's in F-sharp minor as its tonic key. The closest I have come is one single movement, the sublime Adagio 3rd mvt of his Hammerclavier sonata op. 106. That one is in f-sharp minor (an interesting modulation from the Bb major of the sonata's first two movements). It's a known fact Beethoven shunned B minor and described it a "black key" and "daemonic." Since F# minor is built upon the dominant of the "daemonic" key, no doubt he had an aversion to this key as well and any movement or composition in that key must convey a particular sense of sorrow, or a sense of loss, or some other troubled state of mind.
@@DanielFahimi Straight to the point as ever… It will be interesting to see your list of Mozart’s compositions beyond four sharps or flats, so that I can trump it with my list of those by Haydn. There is similarly little in Mozart as startling as the E major slow movement of the E flat piano sonata Hob. XVI:52; this is not a criticism of Mozart, just pointing out a difference. Mozart was generally speaking not a radical evolutionary in the manner of Beethoven - nor Haydn sometimes - he didn’t need to be. It should be remembered also that Haydn outlived Mozart by eighteen years, more than ten of which he was still active as a composer as music moved rapidly into a startling new sound world. Mozart did his own thing in his own way, and in his own way went on his own tonal adventures, and some of it was extraordinary. I wonder if some of your replies to my comments don’t perhaps suggest you have Mozart on a pedestal; understandable, but this contrasts to my placing his unique genius in a more realistic mid/late 18th century musical context.
@@DanielFahimi Some interesting points, many with which I agree completely. The list of modulations you mention illustrate exactly why in my previous comment I described them as ‘…extraordinary’, you surely spotted that word - no dispute. Haydn and Beethoven in particular *were* more experimental - radically evolutionary if you like - than Mozart, this is not a criticism, and is not really questioned by musicologists and scholars; I would never describe Mozart as a ‘sheep’ as you have suggested.* Mozart’s development as a composer post-1781 was truly astonishing, but it was essentially evolutionary as he pushed most existing genres to the limit; movements such as the Fantasia from Haydn’s Opus 76 No 6 string quartet were experimental. The main formats in which Mozart was composing - symphonies, concertos, opera in particular - did not lend themselves so much to experimentation, though I think in some chamber music, his contributions were perhaps more startling. Mozart expanded his Minuets, but never got them beyond Allegretto type (Haydn got up to Allegro moderato in Symphonies 28 and 94, and wrote genuine one-in-a-bar scherzi); he absorbed fantastic counterpoint into the finale of the piano concerto K459 as a development, but it remains a popular typical work; and he extended his operatic finales beyond almost anything hitherto - all developmental, not experimental. Quoting composers such as Schumann in support of any argument is fraught with difficulties; sometimes very perceptive, he is often too heavily influenced by his own prejudices and the spirit of the age, and in some cases, his opinions are simply odd. Your penultimate paragraph is simply wrong; without going into a list, Haydn’s Opus 76, or the 13 late Part-songs are sufficient answer. Mozart would not have wasted so much of his time with a man old enough to be his father if Haydn did not offer a challenge and stimulation beyond any other contemporary composer. Haydn too accomplished extraordinary things - hence Mozart’s interest. Re-reading this discussion, I do think your original ‘Ridiculous’ comment may have been a slight misunderstanding of my point about tonality; the fault being entirely mine, not yours. I should have made it clearer that I was talking about Haydn setting whole works, or individual movements - for the time - in outre key signatures, again, something that is a matter of fact, not of debate. Thanks for your interesting comment, and as I said, apart from a few details, I largely concur. * I have also virtually abandoned the word ‘influence’ regarding Mozart; apart from perhaps JC Bach as a boy, I now believe that Mozart absorbed and assimilated almost everything he heard - or saw in manuscript - into an enrichment of his *own* unique musical personality, more so than almost any other composer I know. The result is one of the most astonishing of musical minds, and a density of musical thought, that is clothed in vivid, gorgeous orchestral colours, exquisite instrumentation, and a particular skill in writing for every individual instrument or combination of instruments. These qualities have arguably, never been surpassed; I would only apply a few parts of this description to Haydn whose particular qualities I think lie mostly elsewhere.
@@mossrogers598 I needed to hear again from beginning to remember. Its because of the first moviment. The second moviment would be better by not distracting so much direct and forward energy of the beginning. The first moviment is really especial and a master of concision and inspirtation, the second one could be in any other symphony. Subscribe to my channel!
Emanuel Magalhães Fróes The renowned American musicologist James Webster has written an essential reading 400 page book around this symphony; he regards this symphony as one of the composer’s highest achievements - a widely held view. This opinion is shared by almost every other Haydn scholar, and your dismissal of the second movement as ‘...could be in any other symphony’ is as mistaken as to fact fact as it is unrepresentative in judgement; in fact, it simply demonstrates an embarrassing lack of knowledge and understanding about the work’s construction and content. The second movement is in fact a sort of calm after the first movement storm and is an essential component in the very carefully constructed tonal journey of the symphony revolving around 3rd-related keys to the tonic, or base f# minor. The tonal pattern of the first three movements is f# minor - A major - F# major; the finale’s Presto section is f# minor, the following Adagio section is A major then F# major. In other words, the cycle is repeated, and the final F# major section is the only real closure in the entire work. The slow movement is a key part to understanding the emotional balance of the work as a whole. The ‘Farewell’ symphony is one of the greatest sturm und drang type works by any composer, and one of the greatest symphonies of the eighteenth century; dismissive comments about a movement being ‘...too long’ reflect more a lack of understanding about a unique, highly original, and inspired symphony than they do about giving helpful insights to listeners and readers.
Elaine Blackhurst It is too long. I don’t need to give any insight more than my taste. Gratulations for the 400 pages, also probably too long, and probably more about the autor of the book than about the content. How many books should I mention to you to show why is too long for me now?
It is actually - Haydn’s ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) is one of the finest symphonies of the 18th century, and the single greatest work of through-composition and cyclic integration before Beethoven’s 5th (1808). If you want to know why it’s so great, check out James Webster’s c.400 page book on the symphony.
I Guess this symphony is called "Farewell" because at the end of the Last Movement of this symphony, there is an Adagio section in the tonic major (This Symphony is written in F-sharp Minor), which wraps up this symphony and the Instruments say their quiet farewells as they leave, with the violas being the last instruments to say their "Farewell" as they play the final notes of this symphony as it fades away into silence.
Indeed not. It has a historical background. You see, the emperor Haydn worked for liked to prolong his stay at his summer residence by several weeks. He did not show any understanding towards his personnel, so Haydn composed this symphony, where in the end, one musician after another leaves the stage. The emperor reacted with "If they all are going, then I also have to.", so Haydn indeed was successful. The emperor with his personnel soon said farewell to the summer residence.
The most imaginative job action in history. A beautifully orchestrated walkout. Should be performed every Labor Day.
"Beautifully orchestrated" indeed!
Nonsense. Mozart never makes any mention of Joseph Haydn's compositional prowess in the dedication letter of the six quartets. (Because Joseph Haydn was simply a "buddy" in the quartet gatherings, nothing more.) Mozart completed string duos for Michael to fulfill a commission Michael Haydn was unable to due to illness. Face it, Joseph Haydn is mostly a prankster. In fact, one can tell how overrated he is by looking at how much he was trashed throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.
@@jackjack3320
Simply repeating one’s opinions ad nauseam ad infinitum does not make them any more valid than keeping them to oneself.
Everyone is entitled to opinions however ill-informed they be, but in this case, you are simply mistaken.
That said, if you don’t like the music of Haydn - that’s cool.
Appreciating music is rather like appreciating food, a personal choice but hardly an exact science.
PS. Your reply does not appear to bear any relation to the comments above, but appears as something of a premeditated rant.
@@elaineblackhurst1509Evidently the myth of Haydn as a prankster/joker is hard lived. It all goes back to one or two comments 200 years ago. Like there is one painting with Napoleon wearing a certain hat and afterwards he is depicted in every movie allways wearing that same hat. The argument that Haydn is not so good " because everyone in the 19th century thought so" is also funny: inverted we might say " Elvis Presley is a great composer because millions like(d) him"😅
@@christianwouters6764
The point about Haydn and humour is repeated ad nauseam ad infinitum with little thought by people who think they are being clever but in fact do not know what they are talking about.
There is humour in Haydn, as there is in Mozart and Beethoven, but not to a degree that it needs over-emphasising as it often is
Much of what appears to be humour in Haydn is in fact playful ingenuity - or ingenious playfulness - (usually with motifs), or else is derived directly from opera buffa, rather in the manner of Mozart’s Symphony 35 K385 (‘Haffner’) which in parts is pure opera buffa; it is this that explains much of the ‘humour’ (or rather ‘buffa’) found in number of middle-period Haydn symphonies in particular.
Much of the above is really not understood as is demonstrated by simplistic CZcams generalisations to be found all over the place, much to the detriment of proper critical analysis, and more importantly, to a proper understanding of Haydn.
Additionally of course, much of the perceived ‘humour’ has extra-musical origins as in the sixth movement of Symphony 60 where the re-tuning moment in fact relates directly to the stage action, much the same way that Mendelssohn has braying donkeys in his Midsummer Night’s Dream music; neither are humour for humour’s sake.
0:15 - I, Allegro assai
5:13 - II, Adagio
13:52 - III, Allegretto (Menuetto)
17:20 - IV, (Finale), Presto; Adagio: 20:04
Ehre
1 часть:
0:17 - ГП
1:12 - ПП
2:41 - Разработка
3:18 - Эпизод (в Разработке)
2 часть:
5:13 - ГП
6:08 - ПП
10:10 - Разработка
3 часть:
13:52 - Начало
15:17 - Трио
4 часть:
17:20 - ГП
18:46 - Разработка
(5) часть:
20:05 - Начало
Спасибо! Святой вы человек!
Храни вас бог
1:06 - мой любимый момент😭
Very detailed interpretation, in which the oboes and the horns are very perceptible.
24:02 even the conductor leaves the podium
Pentameron me when even the conductor leaves the podium
I've always adored this piece. I find it very melancholy.
Really??
Paul Bunyan
You probably don’t realise what a profound observation you have just made.
Mendelssohn conducted this symphony at one of his ‘historical’ Gewandhaus concerts in Leipzig on 22 February 1838, the same series he revived many of the forgotten JS Bach works.
The performance was a sensational success, Mendelssohn organised the blowing out of candles and exits exactly as Haydn had done.
Following the concert, Mendelssohn wrote to his sister about the symphony and performance which had moved him profoundly; he told her that he found it a ‘...curiously melancholy little piece’.
In short: that puts you and Mendelssohn on the same wavelength, and it’s a pleasure to read your perceptive comment which stands in stark contrast to so many comments about this powerful work from listeners who mistakenly perceive that they hear something humorous, comic, or amusing.
Farrel Permadi You might be interested to read my reply above.
@@elaineblackhurst1509whoever you are, Elaine, you always have the best comments and i love running into you in comment sections because so often i learn something new
You can really hear how this masterpiece influenced Mozart and Beethoven. Awesome!
School of Composition
It is extremely unlikely that the ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) influenced Mozart, perhaps maybe it was known to Beethoven (it is the greatest single work of through-composition and cyclic integration prior to Beethoven’s 5th written 36 years later).
This is a quintessential ‘sturm und drang’ type symphony; as such it has very particular characteristics and was written in 1772 which falls within the Viennese ‘sturm und drang’ period which was specifically between c.1765 - 1775.
Haydn wrote about nineteen symphonies with a greater or lesser degree of ‘sturm und drang’ features; most obviously evident in the minor key works such as Symphonies 26, 39, 44, 45, 49 and 52.
Mozart wrote only one ‘sturm und drang type work* - Symphony 25 (K183) which was modelled on Haydn Symphony 39; Beethoven, being born in 1770, obviously wrote no works in this style.
The minor key music of Mozart - apart from K183 - and Beethoven, like the post-1775 minor key works of Haydn are *not* sturm und drang, so it is difficult to identify the influence.
The minor key music of Mozart and Haydn outside the dates given - and Beethoven from much later - is something very different.
Other than that, you’re absolutely right; an awesome, indeed unparalleled masterpiece.
* You could possibly add on some of the 1773 bits of his Thamos music (K345) as well.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Yes, thank you Elaine. But the influence of Sturm und Drang and its features lasted far longer than the official period. I don't know if you have the same experience but I can hear SO much Beethoven here. Of course it probably didn't happen historically, but I could imagine a young Beethoven attending a performance of this symphony and it having lasting effects on him. I love this symphony precisely because of that.
School of Composition
Thank you for your reply - it’s an interesting debate.
I really don’t think the influence of sturm und drang did much outlast the period I indicated between c.1765 and 1775.
From the mid-1770’s composers including Haydn struggled for a while to find a new way with the symphony and until he found that new way, some of his symphonies are amongst the least original and cool of the whole 104.
Post-sturm und drang, some composers actually went backwards (Vanhal), or became rapidly old-fashioned (Dittersdorf); it was only when he got to Vienna from 1781 that Mozart’s symphonies found a new level.
Not all minor key music of the Classical period is sturm und drang which has very specific characteristics and features, many of which are absent in Mozart and Beethoven.
What you hear in composers such as Mozart, Kraus and Beethoven is certain elements of sturm und drang that were inherent to their own general style rather than being specifically sturm und drang per se.
Mozart’s g minor Symphony 40 (K550) written in 1788, or Beethoven’s 5th Symphony first performed in 1808 for example, owe almost nothing to such a dated phenomenon as sturm und drang, but everything to the composers’ particular and very new takes on minor key music.
Haydn who wrote all the greatest examples of music in this style also found a totally new minor key voice in works such as the string quartets Opus 33 No 1; Opus 50 No 4; Opus 55 No 2 et cetera; along with works such as the later minor key symphonies, piano trios and the profound Andante con variazioni in f minor (Hob. XVII:6) which is one of the greatest keyboard works of the Classical period.
None of these works owe anything to sturm und drang, Haydn - like Mozart and Beethoven - had moved on.
That said, you are quite right about the influence of Haydn on Beethoven who knew a number of his works intimately - Beethoven copied out the whole of the string quartet Opus 20 No 1 and sections of the Symphony 99 for example, and was with Haydn at Eisenstadt in 1793 whilst Haydn was composing the string quartets Opus 71/74.
Evidence of a deep knowledge and understanding of Haydn - and Mozart - is clearly evident in Beethoven’s thinking.
The impact of these private and more informal studies and discussions between Haydn and Beethoven, along with a significant number of joint concerts in Vienna in the two or three years after Haydn returned from his second London visit were far more important than the well known and not particularly successful formal counterpoint lessons given between Haydn’s two trips to England.
The debt Beethoven owed to Haydn was significantly greater than he usually cared to admit.
Hope that helps.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I can hear a very strong influence on Mozart in this symphony, but not on his symphonies. His string quintets for example, the less well known ones, and the early violin concerti, follow quite similar approaches to the final movement of this symphony. I have not checked dates of composition to see which came first, but I suspect Haydn did!
I agree. The first two bars immediately reminded me of Mozart's symphony in g minor KV 183
That's intense my dude
Worth reading the fairwell symphony story behind this piece! What a truly wonderful piece of work!,
Yes it is, but not at the expense of distracting from the *musical* genius of what is without question one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century - indeed of all time.
If you can get beyond the pantomime of the exiting musicians, the resolution into F# major at the end of the Finale is a musical apotheosis of a carefully planned and musically very satisfying journey through 3rd-related keys;* it is the only proper resolution of anything in the entire symphony; it is an extraordinary work in every respect.
* Haydn Symphony 45 tonal journey:
1st movement
f# minor (with delayed second subject/interlude in D major that appears unprecedentedly in the development rather than the normal exposition).
2nd movement
A major
3rd movement
F# major - f# minor - F# major
4th movement
f# minor - A major - F# major
Marvelous how the miserable feelings of the members of the orchestra, because of prolonged and involuntary separation from their loved ones, inspired Haydn to create the moving melody of the final movement. Imagine if we were all, to a man artists and had this ability. To conjure flowers out of dirty soil.
Beware! In the video the cover says it's in "f sharp major" whereas it's f sharp MINOR! The title of the video is right. Just in case, make sure you'll remember right, and don't get confused! ;)
Thank you! Done :)
a lot of pieces contain the key in which they end in their name, rather than the key they begin in.
@@realnigga19 Maybe you are right, but this piece has became known as in F-sharp minor key. (Also, it is true, that the piece starts with an F-shap minor chord, and at the end after modulation it ends with a F-sharp major triad).
Fanni Kovács
You are quite correct; this symphony is in f# minor.
That said, the whole work is actually notable for its controlled tonal instability, along with some non-standard modulations, and deliberately weak cadences leaving the music hanging in the air occurring throughout - it only really resolves in the final 22 bars of pure F# major played by the two remaining violinists.
However, as is quite common with Haydn, his symphonies often move through a carefully planned journey of related keys - often 3rd-related - it is a compositional idea Beethoven took from Haydn and is evident in many of his works as well, one well known example is explained below.
It’s worth pointing out that the journey through 3rd-related keys in this work is often a journey from instability to delayed or postponed stability, from question to answer; closure is always denied, except at the very end of the symphony.
This symphony follows a pattern, as does Symphony 95 in c minor which resolves into C major, the purpose and pattern of the tonal journey in Haydn 95 is clearly the model for Beethoven 5 which also starts in c minor but ends in C major and whose journey there is almost identical to the Haydn model - the single difference being a slightly different 3rd-related slow movement.
In Haydn’s Symphony 45, the tonic minor (f#), is off-set by the relative major (A), and tonic major (F#), along with one or two other diversions too, for example, into c# minor, and of course, the revolutionary first movement ‘interlude’ or ‘delayed second subject’ in D major in the first movement development section.
Haydn Symphony 45 in f# minor (‘Farewell’) tonal journey:
1st movement: f# minor
2nd movement: A major
3rd movement: F# major
Note that in in the first cycle of 3rd-related keys, closure is *denied* at the end of each movement; for example, listen to the whispy figure at the end of each part of the Minuet just leaving the music hanging, or the truncated cut-off of the Presto section of the Finale.
4th movement:
Presto - f# minor
Adagio, first part - A major
Adagio, second part - F# major.
In the repeated sequence of identical keys, but here condensed into a single movement, in this cycle, closure is *achieved,* but only in the final 22 bars of pure F# major, not in the first two sections where it is again twice more denied.
It is an ethereal apotheosis as powerful as that of Beethoven at the end of his 5th symphony, but is achieved with just the remaining two violins.
The ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) as a whole, is the greatest single work of through-composition, and cyclic unity and integration by any composer prior to Beethoven’s 5th (1808).
Hope that helps those who have replied to your original comment, the essential read on this work is James Webster’s forensic 400 page study into the work:
Haydn’s ‘Farewell’ Symphony and the Idea of Classical Style (1991).
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I am correct. It doesn't really matter in this case, how the modulation goes, in classical music history it is known as F sharp minor. It is its title, it think it is useless argue about how the tonality goes. I just wanted to make sure that if someone has to recall by ear knows the title correctly. As a music student all I wanted to make the title clear.
20:02 Start the tail (Adagio) of the last movement
Thanks Roc Vela for the orchestra score provided which is great!
하이든 - 교향곡 [45번] [고별]
[초기] 교행곡은 당시 유행한 전고전주의 [감정과다] [질풍노도]양식에
영향을 받은 [만하임풍 작품]
일부의 단조 작품 39.44.45.46
❤1 часть
Экспозиция
тгп 00:17
тпп 2:43
Разработка
1й раздел D dur 3:20
Реприза
тгп 3:57
тпп
❤2ч
ТГП A dur 5:14
ТПП E dur 6:09
❤3ч
основной раздел Fis 13:53
трио Fis 15:17
❤4.1ч
Экспозиция
ТГП 17:21
ТПП A dur 18:46
❤4.2ч
ТГП A dur 20:06
0:00 - (Introduction)
0:15 - I. Allegro assai
5:13 - II. Adagio
13:52 - III. Meenuetto, Allegretto
17:20 - IV. Finale
20:04 - IV. (cont.) Adagio [Farewell]
This symphony is a wounded dragon that gets stabbed at the beginning of the first movement and refuses to die, but writhing in its last agonies and in the coda in the fourth movement at 22:50, bleeding to death and at 24:24 the final chords are its dying breath.
what a strange final movement, seems to end on a recapitulation, then goes to adagio and players walk out. it's really obscure, i don't know of any other classical pieces which do anything similar
Yelooh The history behind it is very fascinating as well! Haydn's employer, Prince Nicholaus Esterhazy had decided to stay at his summer palace in rural Hungary longer than expected, which was a day's travel away from the homes of the musicians, meaning they couldn't visit their families for so long. They asked Haydn for help in getting home so he composed this symphony, the only classical symphony to be composed in F# Minor, as a message to Esterhazy. And it worked, as the very next day after the performance, the court began to pack for home.
I'll take note of that.
There's actually another work which does something similar: Schnittke's Symphony No.1. Schnittke includes a choreography for the musicians themselves, and in a manner similar to Haydn's Farewell Symphony, leave and re-enter the stage at points marked in the score.
1.daļa
1.t. 00:16
2.t. 03:19
4.daļa
g.p. 17:20
bl.p. 20:05
Hello, what happens at 3:19 , what is that part called?
Unpopular opinion: This is better than most Mozart pieces.
We met before on another video, and talked about this. I ask you again: "Have you given Mozart enough chance?"
Mozart Masses, Litanies, Vespers czcams.com/video/GJ9k5ynt6pI/video.html
Mozart String Quartets, Quintets czcams.com/video/YMFppKL1A4k/video.html
Maurerische Tauermusik: czcams.com/video/4A1JlAx3vy0/video.html
Keyboard pieces:
K608: czcams.com/video/Jkh8Re4JUCw/video.html
K399: czcams.com/video/0sTcpzyyST0/video.html
K394: czcams.com/video/m9vVu8rNON4/video.html
K475: czcams.com/video/UCdek-1aM0I/video.html
K397: czcams.com/video/kQJ7UsxZ278/video.html
K511: czcams.com/video/I0CzPGo9ZFg/video.html
K401: czcams.com/video/WGBvNMe9TOo/video.html
K396: czcams.com/video/g3A5YBQJ0Zg/video.html
K594: czcams.com/video/Qka_HMc2ajc/video.html
Analysis videos:
Bernstein explans Mozart's 40th symphony
czcams.com/video/g0ZE38BQmvQ/video.html
Magnificent Counterpoint in the Finale of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony: czcams.com/video/YTxYykhQZbI/video.html
The Ingenious Fugal Finale of Mozart's G Major Quartet, K. 387: czcams.com/video/uoXDHOyfJ-k/video.html
The Incredible Finale of Mozart's K. 590 Quartet in F Major: czcams.com/video/nkbdUjjfRTQ/video.html
Invertible Counterpoint in the Finale of Mozart's D Major String Quintet, K. 593: czcams.com/video/IQbxsGtyc2g/video.html
Mozart's Deceptive Simplicity -Rob Kapilow
czcams.com/video/F1rrYngbtyo/video.html
Piano Concerto No.20 in D minor K466 1st movement:
czcams.com/video/UEsbwYL-eHA/video.html
Adagio and Fugue for String Orchestra in C Minor, K. 546
czcams.com/video/PFXF0Aysh4w/video.html
@Riastrad I find this quite inspired by vivaldi. Simple thematic development, crunchy textures, reliance on circles of fifths. Not his best work. Funnily enough his most stunning symphonies were written after mozarts final 3, and show a lot of his influence. 93, 94, 97, 102, 103, 104 all have a decidedly post-mozartean style
SgWine Noob An interesting comment; interesting in that I fundamentally disagree with almost every single word of it!
@@elaineblackhurst1509 the only thing better than someone who completely agrees with you is someone who doesnt! In what way do you disagree? lets discuss
Love the genuine laughter in the finale
Anyone laughing at the end has simply demonstrated publically a breathtaking ignorance, that they have no understanding whatsoever of the music, and that they have missed the apotheosis of one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century, indeed of all time.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 ummm, Haydn was notoriously funny, and he actually wrote a joke into the final movement of this symphony, where each orchestra member slowly and quietly gets up and walks off stage as the finale is playing until there is one violinists left. He called this the "farewell" symphony because the emperor didn't release the servants to leave timely that season. So you have displayed your ignorance of this masterpiece, pretentious doufus
@@elaineblackhurst1509can u please explain if not difficult? I’m new to classical!
@@vitorpetri1376
If you look through some other recording of of this symphony, I have explained at length why the pantomime of the exiting musicians is simply a visual distraction from then musical apotheosis of the work as it resolves for the first time in the whole symphony into the purest F# major in the final 22 bars; there is no resolution anywhere in the work of any sort before those final bars.
(Listen to the whispy little tails at the end of each section of the Minuet that just leaves the music hanging in the air).
Additionally, the ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) is the greatest single work of through-composition and cyclic integration before Beethoven’s 5th (1808).
You will find my comments elsewhere easily enough, though the two on the Haydn 2032 channel performance of Haydn Symphony 45 - a must if you want to learn more - are a good starting place.
Hope that’s helpful.
Escuchar esta musica fortalece el espíritu y embellece el alma.
hard to tell a more simple and concise movement of symphony than this first one. I could mention the G Major Symphony of George Benda, and guess Haydn had this in mind. Principally when quoting this ascendent harmonic scale motive
Comparing the most important symphony of cyclic integration and through-composition prior to Beethoven’s 5th written 36 years later, one of the greatest symphonies of the 18th century - indeed of all time - with anything by Benda, is as absurd as it is deluded as it is mistaken.
The 1st movement which you have completely misunderstood and libelled ‘…hard to tell a more simple…movement’, actually contains one of the most radical innovations in the entire symphonic repertoire with the delay of the second subject (a sort of D major interlude) to the development of the movement, rather than it appearing in the normal exposition.
As far as ending a Piece with reduced Orchestration, Mozart might *have* been inspired. Check out the ending of his Symphony # 30.
Mozart 30 (1774) was written only two years after Haydn 45, so the chances of Mozart knowing it are slim, especially as he didn’t first meet Haydn until about 10 years later.
Additionally of course, the works are so entirely different in character that they share almost nothing in common.
Beautiful.
An amazing symphony !
Can you explain why is there "even the conductor leaves the podium" at 24:02?
As another comment already states, in the final movement the players get out of the stage one by one (as can be seen in the score: it begins with the full orchestra and ends with only two violins). In the performance used in this video, the audience laughs when the conductor also gets off the stage, even though the piece doesn't specify so.
The piece is written by Haydn because his count Esterhazy refused the musicians to take vacation. So he told all his musicians to leave the stage when their part has ended. As you can see in the scores, almost all lines end before the piece itself is finished, when only haydn himself and the first violin stayed at stage. As I think, there wasn't even a conductor in esterhazy, because the orchestra was rather small and one of the best at this time. And if there was one, I think, even Haydn would have written the line you mentioned. The count, is reported, understood haydns hidden message and accepted the musicians insists for holidays. To fully understand this you have to understand which power and habits counts had in this period, which is known as the period of "absolutism" in europe.
As I read here, there is also Mozart in discussion, which had an even more agressive style to accuse these things, as some of his operas even have been forbidden by the german kaiser himself. Mostly known are "la cavatine di figaro" (Figaros Hochzeit) [right of the first night], "don giovanni" [don juan/guiltyness of women in all sex crimes] and "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" [local property > human rights] in this purpose. (if you consider that the habits which are only shown in the oriental part of this "singspiel" were actually reality in almost every noble house in europe at this time)
As mozart was a scholar of haydn he learned a lot of him, expecially how to "surprise" the audience. Which i think haydn is still in the undisputed master because of the finesse how he included this to almost every piece of music he wrote. And why haydn was so loved by the british when he made tours with his last 24 symphonies. (he wrote more than 100 and even stravinsky wouldn't mention he wrote the same more than even 10 times)
Haydn is still underrated for his music, but even more, as he influenced at least two of the greatest composers of all time. Mozart and Beethoven would never have been so great without haydn. And he's the composer of german national anthem: "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" :D.
@@casusincorrabilis1584 Stravinsky?
@@theharry801 stravinsky said that vivaldi only wrote one piece of music, and this 600 times.
So we did a homeworke about this
3 houers work
Thank u
I love Meeeeeeeeeenuettos
What Orchestra recorded this?
4악장 주제 23:09
23:05 첼로퇴장
24:12 마지막
Фагот появляется на две фразы из ниоткуда и исчезает...
17:20
一応は嬰ヘ短調だがイ長調がほとんどで再あごは嬰ヘ長調なんだよな
23:10 공부용
0:34
20:05
13:27
Humanities Honors 2A
23:10
Buena albujar
I don't see many F sharp Minor Classical pieces.
There's a plethora of F-sharp minor and major pieces for the piano. Infact a lot of late 18th and 19th century composers were very fond of writing in uncommon keys. F# minor, C# minor (NEVER Db minor), G# minor, and B were all given a lot of attention. As far as classical symphonic works, yeah its limited, but solo instruments used these keys to the fullest.
@@Froboy1100
Much of what you have suggested is true of the nineteenth century as a whole, but is wholly inaccurate regarding the eighteenth century where excursions even beyond four sharps or three flats were relatively uncommon.
In the Classical period (c1750 - 1800), Haydn is tonally markedly more adventurous than Mozart.
@@Froboy1100 I have yet to locate any full piece of Beethoven's, in any medium, that's in F-sharp minor as its tonic key. The closest I have come is one single movement, the sublime Adagio 3rd mvt of his Hammerclavier sonata op. 106. That one is in f-sharp minor (an interesting modulation from the Bb major of the sonata's first two movements).
It's a known fact Beethoven shunned B minor and described it a "black key" and "daemonic." Since F# minor is built upon the dominant of the "daemonic" key, no doubt he had an aversion to this key as well and any movement or composition in that key must convey a particular sense of sorrow, or a sense of loss, or some other troubled state of mind.
@@DanielFahimi
Straight to the point as ever…
It will be interesting to see your list of Mozart’s compositions beyond four sharps or flats, so that I can trump it with my list of those by Haydn.
There is similarly little in Mozart as startling as the E major slow movement of the E flat piano sonata Hob. XVI:52; this is not a criticism of Mozart, just pointing out a difference.
Mozart was generally speaking not a radical evolutionary in the manner of Beethoven - nor Haydn sometimes - he didn’t need to be.
It should be remembered also that Haydn outlived Mozart by eighteen years, more than ten of which he was still active as a composer as music moved rapidly into a startling new sound world.
Mozart did his own thing in his own way, and in his own way went on his own tonal adventures, and some of it was extraordinary.
I wonder if some of your replies to my comments don’t perhaps suggest you have Mozart on a pedestal; understandable, but this contrasts to my placing his unique genius in a more realistic mid/late 18th century musical context.
@@DanielFahimi
Some interesting points, many with which I agree completely.
The list of modulations you mention illustrate exactly why in my previous comment I described them as ‘…extraordinary’, you surely spotted that word - no dispute.
Haydn and Beethoven in particular *were* more experimental - radically evolutionary if you like - than Mozart, this is not a criticism, and is not really questioned by musicologists and scholars; I would never describe Mozart as a ‘sheep’ as you have suggested.*
Mozart’s development as a composer post-1781 was truly astonishing, but it was essentially evolutionary as he pushed most existing genres to the limit; movements such as the Fantasia from Haydn’s Opus 76 No 6 string quartet were experimental.
The main formats in which Mozart was composing - symphonies, concertos, opera in particular - did not lend themselves so much to experimentation, though I think in some chamber music, his contributions were perhaps more startling.
Mozart expanded his Minuets, but never got them beyond Allegretto type (Haydn got up to Allegro moderato in Symphonies 28 and 94, and wrote genuine one-in-a-bar scherzi); he absorbed fantastic counterpoint into the finale of the piano concerto K459 as a development, but it remains a popular typical work; and he extended his operatic finales beyond almost anything hitherto - all developmental, not experimental.
Quoting composers such as Schumann in support of any argument is fraught with difficulties; sometimes very perceptive, he is often too heavily influenced by his own prejudices and the spirit of the age, and in some cases, his opinions are simply odd.
Your penultimate paragraph is simply wrong; without going into a list, Haydn’s Opus 76, or the 13 late Part-songs are sufficient answer.
Mozart would not have wasted so much of his time with a man old enough to be his father if Haydn did not offer a challenge and stimulation beyond any other contemporary composer.
Haydn too accomplished extraordinary things - hence Mozart’s interest.
Re-reading this discussion, I do think your original ‘Ridiculous’ comment may have been a slight misunderstanding of my point about tonality; the fault being entirely mine, not yours.
I should have made it clearer that I was talking about Haydn setting whole works, or individual movements - for the time - in outre key signatures, again, something that is a matter of fact, not of debate.
Thanks for your interesting comment, and as I said, apart from a few details, I largely concur.
* I have also virtually abandoned the word ‘influence’ regarding Mozart; apart from perhaps JC Bach as a boy, I now believe that Mozart absorbed and assimilated almost everything he heard - or saw in manuscript - into an enrichment of his *own* unique musical personality, more so than almost any other composer I know.
The result is one of the most astonishing of musical minds, and a density of musical thought, that is clothed in vivid, gorgeous orchestral colours, exquisite instrumentation, and a particular skill in writing for every individual instrument or combination of instruments.
These qualities have arguably, never been surpassed; I would only apply a few parts of this description to Haydn whose particular qualities I think lie mostly elsewhere.
orchestra be like: bye violin
did you notice how great the begin is and that the second moviment is too long?
too long? like actual question?? hahaha studying the piece for a project and wondering why you say so
@@mossrogers598 I needed to hear again from beginning to remember. Its because of the first moviment. The second moviment would be better by not distracting so much direct and forward energy of the beginning. The first moviment is really especial and a master of concision and inspirtation, the second one could be in any other symphony. Subscribe to my channel!
Emanuel Magalhães Fróes
The renowned American musicologist James Webster has written an essential reading 400 page book around this symphony; he regards this symphony as one of the composer’s highest achievements - a widely held view.
This opinion is shared by almost every other Haydn scholar, and your dismissal of the second movement as ‘...could be in any other symphony’ is as mistaken as to fact fact as it is unrepresentative in judgement; in fact, it simply demonstrates an embarrassing lack of knowledge and understanding about the work’s construction and content.
The second movement is in fact a sort of calm after the first movement storm and is an essential component in the very carefully constructed tonal journey of the symphony revolving around 3rd-related keys to the tonic, or base f# minor.
The tonal pattern of the first three movements is f# minor - A major - F# major; the finale’s Presto section is f# minor, the following Adagio section is A major then F# major.
In other words, the cycle is repeated, and the final F# major section is the only real closure in the entire work.
The slow movement is a key part to understanding the emotional balance of the work as a whole.
The ‘Farewell’ symphony is one of the greatest sturm und drang type works by any composer, and one of the greatest symphonies of the eighteenth century; dismissive comments about a movement being ‘...too long’ reflect more a lack of understanding about a unique, highly original, and inspired symphony than they do about giving helpful insights to listeners and readers.
Moss Rogers You might find my comment above of some interest.
Elaine Blackhurst It is too long.
I don’t need to give any insight more than my taste. Gratulations for the 400 pages, also probably too long, and probably more about the autor of the book than about the content.
How many books should I mention to you to show why is too long for me now?
🎵🎶😍🌹🦋
🎵🎶😍🌹🦋 indeed!
Its Minor, not Major 😚
not content related but God loves you all, staysafe
Im not christian...
6:32 The symphony is good, but not THAT good...
It is actually - Haydn’s ‘Farewell’ symphony (1772) is one of the finest symphonies of the 18th century, and the single greatest work of through-composition and cyclic integration before Beethoven’s 5th (1808).
If you want to know why it’s so great, check out James Webster’s c.400 page book on the symphony.
I Guess this symphony is called "Farewell" because at the end of the Last Movement of this symphony, there is an Adagio section in the tonic major (This Symphony is written in F-sharp Minor), which wraps up this symphony and the Instruments say their quiet farewells as they leave, with the violas being the last instruments to say their "Farewell" as they play the final notes of this symphony as it fades away into silence.
*violins
Indeed not. It has a historical background. You see, the emperor Haydn worked for liked to prolong his stay at his summer residence by several weeks. He did not show any understanding towards his personnel, so Haydn composed this symphony, where in the end, one musician after another leaves the stage. The emperor reacted with "If they all are going, then I also have to.", so Haydn indeed was successful. The emperor with his personnel soon said farewell to the summer residence.
And the violins are ending the piece, not the violas (deadly mistake)
@@musik350 Deadly is a bit overstating it. Nobody is going to die because of it.
@@0live0wire0 Have you ever called a violinist a violist in front of them
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