What standard car (with genuine options by the manufacturer) would fit your liking?? You are criticizing the only brand that wants to build a real 4x4.
---- UPDATE September 2022 --------- I sat in the latest model, which according to Ineos, is pretty much done besides some small changes under the bonnet and cosmetic stuff. In my opinion, the seating position is bad for someone my size, while I sat in the back, two other people who were around my height jumped into the driver's seat and said exactly the same to their friends. If you are anywhere around 190cm, I strongly suggest sitting in one before buying. For me, it's definitely ruled out as a tourer as the seating position is nothing that you can modify or change. ----------------------- There are a few heated opinions here, and I do value all constructive feedback and will never delete such; however, become disrespectful, I will delete your comments. These are my opinions based on my experience and research. If you don't like to hear concerns or shortcomings, don't watch the video. If you create a purpose-built 4wd for enthusiasts and professionals and make it available as a ProtoType you will get more scrutiny from people who know what they are looking at and see shortcomings. In my opinion better to know possible shortcomings now than after spending 130k. What I mentioned does not concern or affect you? No problem, it seems to be the right car for you, and that is perfectly fine. I see this video as one part of the puzzle to making an informed purchase decision.
Your got too much experience to know what works and what doesn’t Spending over 100K is serious business Heaps appreciate the wisdom your sharing Keep ‘em coming!! 🤙
Absolute respect for your wisdom access points (WAPs) clear, reasoned analysis backed up with much experience n real world situations. People can either take them onboard or not - but the consumers need independent reviews like this to guide their timing on purchasing decisions. Thanks very much for sharing your incite and opinion.
This is a more balanced video than your first one. I think the confusion comes from you spending alot of time listing faults with a vehicle which is not really designed for your application. Your current over landing rig looks bad ass and i don't see how the IG would ever be better than that for your use. I think you summed it up when you said it was designed and built for Europe which it is and with that comes a lot of regulation and compromise. It might not be perfect but it will have it's niche for people who want reliable and robust in a compact package (alot of AUS/ US trucks are just too big for Europe) and who don't need 180litres of fuel capacity! Interesting what you say about the E lockers as i probably don't need them but people are saying to spec them for resale value as people will want them specced. Offset pedals suck so hopefully that is sorted somewhat. The over head switches are cool so probably worth a small compromise
@SCMTBCoach the Landcruiser 105 was also never designed as a long range tourer but it could be easily converted into one. A good purpose build 4wd provides a base where you can make out of it what you want and one of the main issues with the Grenadier is that it does not provide that platform. Is it a bad 4wd? I don't think so but time will tell, but it sure does not have the overwhelming distinguishable feature it was supposed to have as a purpose build 4wd. It has as many if not more pros and cons than many other 4wd on the market and you just need to see which ones you can better live with. Given it's a small volume vehicle at present you have actually way less options than with any other 4wd and Ineos has engineered the Grenadier in a bit of a cull de sac in regards to modifiability. Will it still suit people? Sure it will and I hope enough so we see an improved version 2 maybe with more input from people who actually 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I think the thing is could a vehicle as you want it have been created in 2022 and meat European regs? I am not an expert so i don't know but I think that anything that would have added weight was off the table as it is already heavy and has a gross vehicle limit of 3500kg (including payload)
As a long time CJ and Wrangler owner, my absolute love with the looks of the Grenadier has always been tinged with bit of…wariness. At this point I think I still want one, but you’ve definitely given me more to consider. Thank you!
@@timtim2949, between my original comment and now I have retired, so my current 4-door Wrangler is going to me my forever-car by necessity - I don’t think I’m going to be able to afford a Grenadier when if finally makes it to the States.
The Grenadier is a ground breaking vehicle in the history of 4 wheel drive vehicles, combining traditional, functional design with modernity in a very welcome way. I think your comments are all reasonable and accurate critiques of a first generation car company and specialty vehicle. as compared to your wish list. And once the company begins delivering vehicles to customers we will all see the collective real world experience here on youtube. The tough call is whether to buy one, knowing that future model years will only bring improvements in options [gas tank size?] and fit and finish. Look at Ford's pandemic influenced, flawed roll out of the Bronco with defective hard tops, and probably many other fit and finish issues to clean up. And that's by a traditional OEM. Regarding the Grenadier, what gives me a high degree of confidence in a successful roll out are the partners involved in the design and assembly, specifically Magna Steyr, the maker of the legendary G Wagon. [compare the door handles between the two vehicles😉] Also, consider that the Grenadier is being assembled at a former but very modern plant of Mercedes, with the same workforce, suggests a high level of competence and commitment to high quality construction. [The plant will still produce various small MBZ models, per press reports.] The reputation of all of these partners is at stake world wide. All of these factors instill a level of confidence that the vehicle will be reliable and of high quality from the beginning.
And one more comment - even though the there's obvious inspiration and motivation to continue the Defender lineage, this vehicle has more in common with the German G Wagon - design, technically, size and proportions, and production lineage.
hm I agree with many things you say I'm just not as confident that there will be future vehicles, In comparison to Ford, Ineos Car is a one-trick pony. I also don't think that any other manufacturers' reputation is on the line they just supply parts to a niche manufacturer, which is very common in the industry. My concern is that from what I have seen so far, Ineos does not have a team of people who really understand 4wd that is from development all through to their ground staff, who test and even market the vehicle. Mind you, I hope you are right, and future versions will improve on the shortcomings. If future models turn out better, I will more than happily agree that I'm wrong. If the Grenadier is still talked about a year after being in the customer's hand, I will also get my hand on a second-hand one and see what is possible and likely will be touring with one beforehand. I have no ill feelings towards Ineos or the car I just call it how I see it.
An extremely professional and thorough review with expert knowledge of the subject. Every 4-wheel driver's gold standard, let the manufacturers take notice. The real deal is not the pitch but the patch the vehicle can cope with.
Wow. That seating error is an immediate deal breaker. As a seating professional for over 30 years, I'm impressed you made that your first point. Overall, your observations are very astute. Thank you.
Excellent review. Absolutely spot on that you really don't want to be that "first customer" to buy one in Australia or Southern Africa and drive off into the wild blue yonder. My thoughts are to wait at least 5 years into production before seriously considering the Grenadier in Australia
Already been tested in Australia and deserts across the world, including Namibia in Africa, and as far away as Alaska, Iceland and Norway. The engine has been proven as one of the most reliable engines in the 330d and BMWX5 for more than 10 years and the transmission equally solid built by ZF. Any Bosch or BMW dealer will be able to service the vehicle.
100 percent agree with literally everything you said (from the U.S.). Fortunately we apparently get a 100 L tank over here. I don't know why, but we do, and that's good. Also since our steering wheel is on the left, our foot room might be more natural. The biggest draw-backs for me, and frankly what is keeping me from buying this first version, is that it doesn't seem to have much room for growth of wheel size. Absolutely zero people are going to get smaller tires, so they should set up the geometry of the control arms etc., as if their tires are the absolute smallest it will perform well with. In other words, leave geometry room such that 35" can be placed without rubbing or replacing the control arms, AND offer an optional lower final gear ratio. This is key. Bronco got that right and the 4x4 industry is following suit, not that I'm comparing the two rigs. The concept of this rig being modular is great... but it seems to come out of the shop limited in this fundamental way for a 4x4. I know those in the UK probably don't like to hear when you said it's built too for the UK... but the point of the vehicle is to sell and perform all around the world.
100% agree and the beauty of that is that you keep everyone happy, people who like to drive it stock have no issue and on and off-road behaviour will likely be better with longer arms. People who want bigger could do so without jumping trough hoops so everyone is happy. Thats approach to me makes a good foundation for a purpose build 4wd.
I'm speculating that the US petrol (B58) version can accommodate a 100L tank probably because there's no provision required for the Ad Blue reservoir... which is described elsewhere as having a 17L capacity for the B57 diesel...
@@denism2171 Sounds like a good speculation to me! 10% increased fuel is good in my book. I can get far enough for my use, which is a typical use... weekend warrior type with very occasional very long trip.
Hi Buddy I have mine on order as we in Aus will get them before you guys cant figure out why you get a 100 litre tank and we don't . I may have to ask them. With past experience with Nissan patrols if you fit 35 tyres it is common to fit a 50mm lift kit which does not require replacing steering arms as cambers are not affected. 100 mm lift and you will have to modify the suspension.
@@johnswinkels4383 excited for you brother! I've got the reservation payment in back in February in case I feel good about it when we get our turn. I feel fortunate to see all of you guy's videos before we get pressed to make a decision. Hopefully the geometry is still good with 35" tires, I just kinda doubt it given the length of the control arms, causing geometry to change lots for every inch lifted. I'm guessing a 3" lift or so would be good... give or take. But in OZ it might be perfect as is, if they figured out the "death wobble" shown in the video, and you don't want to lift much. I wonder how long the control arms are compared to the Nissan. She's new and exciting either way and I hope to see your video as you're up to some shenanigans!
You'd be nothing short of brave and deep pocketed to take a gamble on this. Thing could turn out to be a 160k lemon and we havent talked about its resale value yet.
I live in BC, Canada where I live play and work in the back country. I agree with a lot of your comments but need to say that this vehicle is not designed and marketed as a 'rock crawler' therefore should not be judged too harshly against some of your personal trucks that you do or have owned and modified. There is a huge market for 4Wd 'Sports Utility Vehicles' here and most are not designed with purely driving in dried river beds, rocky canyons, fording creeks etc. To launch a new vehicle into an already saturated market and to make it a profitable venture it should appeal to the mass market. Many 4WD enthusiasts here are very competent at rebuilding old trucks and SUV's to play in the dirt, I have friends who are passionate about this. These enthusiasts probably spend 1/3 to 1/2 as much as it would cost to buy the Grenadier. Also we need to look at the environment in which the Ineos Grenadier will be marketed, true some will likely be bought by those who work and live remotely in the Outback or harsh Northern environments...but a lot will not, they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. Originating in the "Land Rover' community of the UK, I hoped that Ineos might have tried to create a basic, almost minimalistic, vehicle that would be very durable, easy to work on, very affordable and that could be customized by the consumer at a later date to raise its specification and adaptive to individual needs. I think the entry price point is too high and the 'full option' cost puts it into the league of the increasingly popular Range Rovers, high specification Jeep Wranglers and high performance, 'off road' pick up trucks such as the Ford F150 Raptor and the Dodge Ram TRX...I can't see Ineos gaining a market when competing with any of these vehicles. Thanks for a well executed review.
Hm, I never ever compared the Grenadier against my Rock Crawler my comparison is mainly against my 105 Landcruiser, which is precisely in the same vehicle category and a touring vehicle. I think the main issue is that Ineos built a platform that has quite a few shortcomings and shows that no 4wd experts were involved in the design. It's just not as customisable as many other 4wd on the market at present. I do entirely agree with your statement, "they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. " and I think it's perfectly suited for that market. You have many other cars already in this market segment, and Ineos just adds another option to that segment, it is not the class-leading purposes build 4x4 it was advertised to be, though.
Extremely informative video. Don't worry about the keyboard warriors, you are sharing your perspective based on your significant experiences and that will help a lot of people make their own decisions with their own criteria. One of the most useful videos I've seen yet. Keep up the great work.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted the death wobble. (I think the only reason we got to see that video is it was 3rd party from the BMW bike event and not Ineos themselves). It definitely feels that the majority of people are over the honeymoon period with the grenadier and, unfortunately, its short comings are starting to appear. That being said Ineos are all too keen to tell everyone that these are prototypes, so it'll be interesting to see if the final production vehicles have the same issues!
As I mentioned I have no doubt the Grenadier from factory will not have a dead wobble just wondering if it's as susceptible to it as the Wranglers with a very similar front set up. Time will tell .
A very honest video. I love the Genadier concept but as an Australian Outback/desert tourer, it will not make the grade. The current Troopcarrier runs rings around it for outback touring.
Awesome work as usual Stef. Like you, I had high hopes on the Grenadier but have been left very short on the product being delivered. Unlike you, I thought the way this product was marketed, that it SHOULD have been offered off the forecourt with an option for 35's. 33's should surely be standard. Completely agree on the the short arm WAs, death wobble possibility. Actually agree on the lockers, the clearance, the limited fuel capacity, the footwell, the overhead controls, the winch option, gearing etc. I had the Grenadier on my interest list, and it will go back on that list if they look to local support from someone like yourself, perhaps with support from the local modifier suppliers - not formula 1 drivers, ice-cream van people, or rally drivers. But people who actually know 4wd. You've quoted two other 4wd specialists in this vid, and as it goes, that is three of four who are the only 4wd specialists in my CZcams feed. Grenadier would find it hard doing better than bringing you three to the table. Just do it Grenadier. If you take it seriously, you will love the result.
the left steered cars most likely wont have the exhaust in the way. I like a few things about it. The one central roof panel 4x4 switch switches off all modern electronic controls at ones. There is a aux battery in the rear. Prewired outside light switches in the roof, so when camping/sleeping in the back, they are easy accessible. The grenadier reminds me on the early G class. Two roof windows 👍🏽 Alloy doors, the rest in steel, german made ladder frame and solid axles, compared to the Defender. You got to design a car like this for modern times first, that has to be understood. Look at the new Defender
Thank you Stephan as usual for your very informative and unbiased video. I have been following the INEOS for the past 18 months and always felt that their videos are not really helpful for things I want to know, but are done by fanboys/ salesmen. Good to hear your view that confirmed this hunch. You however have been very modest in titling this video as such, I must say!
I put my deposit down. I did a test drive. It did well. One small thing that got me, the backseat don't fall flat. I have a 1976 international scout ii and it has that capability. I just traded my 2012 Range Rover Sport with 91,000 for a 2001 Landcruiser!
As an ex-Defender owner (200 TDI 110 CSW, for six years 1990 to 1996 after a Ninety soft top) I'm presently in a rented LHD 110 SW Defender in Iceland (Ford Transit propulsion, probably from around 2015 and 128,000 km). It is today an utter relic, with a terrible offset pedal driving position, has lost the ventilation flaps of old and the flat tea mug dashboard, plus I don't remember stupidity with my own Defender's headlight switch clashing with the ignition key. Some other bad traits include reluctance to shed rpm resulting in driveline shunt however hard you try for smooth gear changes, terrible turning circle, appallingly rough ride on corrugated and potholed 'F' roads and of course the door seals leak in dust and water. BUT it is ridiculously parsimonious on fuel and it's the coolest thing on four wheels in the rental scene. Grenadier's closest rivals seems to me to be the commercial variants of the G Wagen, two of which have been my daily driver for over 20 years. I really hope Ineos soft sell some Grenadiers into the Icelandic rental market, as a week thrashing about in the wilds provides time to either bond or discover why you can't tolerate a vehicle. Hopefully Grenadier's development process has ironed out issues causing the latter.....although some valid gripes are clearly emerging. Update edit, 90km today in limp mode after suspected turbo failure or intercooler hose split. Hoping the Icelandic rental market gets some good deals on Grenadier fleets as the Defenders need retiring!
Wow!! Finally an off-roader that was not star struck by this vehicle to the point of soiling their good name and reputation by gushing over it simply because it "looks" like an old Defender and has solid axles. The number of complex issues, known and unknown, that a start up company has to overcome will be the achilles heal of Ineos for the near future. Give this brand 5 years and it will most likely be a top choice for the serious off-roader.
Awesome and thorough review! I agree with everything you have said in this video 100%. Despite the grenadiers shortcomings, I am still happy that they have built a dual solid axle vehicle that can hopefully be revised in the future to eliminate its current issues that you highlighted in the video. This may make it a legendary four wheel drive that can be used as a tourer and for tough tracks. Keep up the great content.
Thanks mate, I'm also keen to see what I think in a year after the Grenadier is on the market and used in public for some time. I'm also keen on what Ineos comes up with in the future after all this is only version 1.
Good video. We are going to need to disagree on the necessity for 35s on a tourer though, I find 32-33 adequate. I'm just happy INEOS have made a good offroad/overland/touring 4x4 even if it's not perfect! And I too was appalled by the "gold standard" descent - I'd say that was in high range, and hurtling down a slope is not my idea of control. However, creative agencies typically focus on speed rather than control, and care not about the impact on the car or the environment.
yep would agree with 33" being suitable for most touring, for my remote Desert touring it just gives me some added capability and safety margin and options to safely air down lower.
@@AlloffroadAu Also to add, I agree that 35's are a good idea because of the low hanging, protuding componants. A Nitto Trail Grappler MT 35/11.50r17(265/85r17) would be my choice(fits on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), idealisticlly speaking if availability permits or a 35x12.50r17 KM3(295/75r17 on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), with a 3 inch lift for "touring"(given that the base model is 1 inch to low, because otherwise it would be a 2 inch lift). I think that a 1 inch lift and 285/70r17(17×7.5) should be a from the factory option. I think that a 3000mm/118 inch wheelbase would have been better than the approximately 2925mm/115 inch wheelbase, and combined with greater distance between the body and frame and a 100L standard/150L OEM optional tank for diesel and petrol models.
All your concerns sound absolutely valid, certainly as you look at all the needs of free time 4x4 drivers. On the other side, if I look at the dimension (room for euro pallet), high trailing capacity, beefy body plating. First for and for all, this 4x4 might become a popular workhorse for construction contractors. To transport small cranes, Bobcats, welding rigs... on a trailer. They want good maneuverability on muddy jobsites and safe trailing on the highway.
yep I can definitely see it working well for that or a farm vehicle. Fuel range, low ground clearance, seating positions are no issues as people will not spend prolonged time in it.
I think your video is spot on, there are many decisions on the Grenadier that depreciate it's value as a touring vehicle, especially when heading remote outback. I think buying one at this stage for touring would be foolish, or must acknowledge they're definitely in the early adopter stage and will have issues as such. There's also many things that could possibly change (as per the Ineos PR reps) between the proto and the final production units - will be good to see if they took criticisms on board... I think it's a pretty simple misinterpretation by many that it would be good at remote touring and modifying by design. Ineos instead have designed it as a "real" 4wd for work, not as a recreational toy (like it or not, is what most touring/modified vehicles are). The promo material I've seen has tended this way. Looking at the vehicle and talking with Ineos reps on the prototype tour it confirmed that this is aimed more at business purposes. There have been some reports with PR people talking about touring as well, but it's pretty obvious that this was way at the back of the mind. The reps I spoke with were quite open that there are better vehicles for modifying. There are many design decisions that, in theory at least, would make this great on a worksite, be it a farming (although better in dual/cab or CC style), towing trailers, trade site, mine (would be a brilliant torture test - mines are ridiculously harsh on vehicles). Businesses have the capability to buy many more of these things than enthusiasts ever will and as such will be the primary market. Many of these design decisions that make the vehicle better stock, go against design lending to modifying for enthusiast levels - minimal wasted space underneath for additional fuel etc, suspension designed to best suit current setup vs lifted etc. There is no point designing suspension, for example, to cope with a 4-6in lift, it that design has a marked detrimental impact on stock handling - when the bulk of the vehicles will never be lifted. Assuming Ineos can follow up on their service & parts plans, I reckon the 1st version will be great at it's intended use (on work sites), but i we'll have to wait for version 2 refinement to see if they are able to cater for enthusiasts as well. And if they bring out a CC version, it might even be time for my old man to upgrade his stock 22yr old GU Patrol 4.2 CC (yeah the LC has more power, but its not really better at anything else, and worse on road)...
Thank you for making this video. I’ve had a fair amount of doubts myself during the development phase of the car. And I’ve been criticised on CZcams for being outspoken about the risks of a car made by non experienced people and managers who are just living a childish dream due to vulgar levels of wealth. Even ASPW seemed to buy into the BS and the empty promises. I’m glad the reality is slowly emerging and the problems become more and more obvious.
@@AlloffroadAu yes. I respect what he does, although I’m not a fan of him building cars. He’s not an engineer and you can easily tell. Wish he’d stick to story telling, because he’s brilliant at that. Anyway… looking forward to seeing the Grenadier at your channel in the future, as well as many other cars. You are an engineer, at least it seems that way, and that’s why it’s so enjoyable to watch your show.
Great video! Agree with everything especially the price and ergonomics. In 2008 I was pricing up a new Defender and they were about AU$48k. I would think the base model Grenadier should be about that, especially a new, unknown product. I sat in the driver’s seat at the Grenadier demo and hated the footwell, and B pillar. Windows were far too low too. I think what you said about this vehicle being designed by people who have never designed a car before is spot on. Keep up the good work 💪🏼💪🏼
now way this will be the price of a Defender. The Defender was put together in the 80s and then Land Rover just keeped selling them. Do not let your self be fooled by the fact they have similar looks. The Grenadier is way better from an engineering standpoint.
Another comprehensive review with excellent recommendations. I hope Ineos Grenadier takes them on board. It's reviews such as these that lead to tangible improvements that benefit the customer.
Ok you Grenadier fans starting on the 9/9 for 3-days is the 4WD and camping show at eastern creek Sydney on display will be the production model going through its paces. As the author of this article pointed out the pedals were offset on a protype to the steering wheel. If someone from Sydney is going to this event can you please note the seating position and report what you found this would be a great help for buyers.
@@AlloffroadAu You little beauty I wrote a letter to Grenadier after your first article I received a receipt with still no reply.You will be able to sit in it. Look forward to your reply as will many others no doubt.
@@AlloffroadAu Ok its Sunday you have been to the exhibition please what is the verdict on driver position to pedals I know the problem was the position of the exhaust for right hand drivers. talk to me.
These are important points to keep in mind while purchasing it. I will not baby it when it’s arrive, it will be driven to extremes until something prevails, common sense say drive what it is intent to but with your skills and preparations to what ever it, full passengers, towing and pulling, off road and over-landing. But it’s good looking on road and comfy also. I have fully loaded it with options with intent to use it. It is very interesting new Off road company car with future cars on the way. For sure the Pick up will definitely in my radar and am selling my current pickup when the Ineos is out. Then I can wait until the new pickup comes in the future while enjoying the Grenadier in the mean time.
Thank you for putting yourself out there with your informed comments and most of them substantiated with available information. I was one of the first to put my cash down for this exciting vehicle development, I have watched all the promotional videos, as well as the constructive criticism (yours being one) and came to the conclusion myself that on release and ordering the vehicle is indeed overpriced and lacks those key points needed for touring. I am sure that most return criticism to yourself is based on perhaps disappointment and that the bubble has burst on the excitement surrounding its release. I have cancelled my order, with great deliberation, but cannot invest so much in a compromised investment that still needs so much more cash and modification to be the vehicle I thought it was going to be. Excellent review, again, thanks.
Yep after the prototype drive, some of your points were the deal breaker for me. Got my reservation deposit back and bought a 79. Later after seeing the price i would have paid, I'm still ahead.
I feel that Ratcliffe was less interested in building a dedicated, capable 4WD than he was in fanboi-ing over the Defender. There is a reason that the Defender largely disappeared from the Aussie and African markets, and it was again because a British manufacturer failed to consult properly with Aussie and South African operators about what they needed in their vehicles. Auxiliary fuel and water really is basic stuff. The centre instrument console really bugs me in particular. That's where a lot of operators will want to mount their navigation system. The interior really should be provided with a void space and ideally some mounting points and prewiring for a UHF and antenna, plus navigation from the getgo. I do like the overhead panel option for adding in your own controls though, I can see it being a tidy and useful setup for things not frequently needed (i.e. controlling solar, water heaters, compressor etc.) But yep, it's meant to be built for off road expeditions, so guranteed parts and service support in the places it is meant to be used (i.e., somewhere you can't get trip a triple macchiato skinny latte on demand within a 5 min walk) is what really gives me red flags. I'm not even a serious off roader by any stretch of the imagination (a dirt track to the beach or local forest is the limit for me right now) but even in my very unexpert and inexperienced view, I see more nostalgia for the defender than a real Landcruiser competitor.
The Defender was simply outdated and reliance on civil and mitary sales evaporated with the advent of road side bombs etc. The new Defender whilst targeting a different market appears to be a capable offroader or tourer. Interestingly talking to some D4 owners in the Sandy Desert they would only change their D4s for an Ineos. I found this a bit weird given it sort of represented a step backwards in terms of tech eg air suspension etc...on my opinion at least.
@@ericjohnson6802 No surprises there, the new Defender is basically an updated Discovery 4 and more complex. As a tourer will not make it here in Australia's harsh desert. I have the original defender and will never give it up, but if the Grenadier proves itself to be reliable and dependable then I will buy that and still keep my Defender.
@@MountainGoat69696 really..tell that to the three owners we met..one touring Tassie the others Vic and SA. All three had much praise for the vehicle. We mIntain a Perentie and aside from the diff n engine ..now turboed..just about everything else has been replaced with stronger gear. As a tourer it's terrible...but fun..
Interesting and informative video. I have driven the prototype 2B for a week in an off-road environment in the UAE (Nov 21) and absolutely loved it. I did have the left hand drive version and did not notice any discomfort in the footwell (but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention). Regarding off-road driving, I did not find that 1st 4L was too fast at all - it kept the vehicle at a nice and constant 2-4 km/h while descending a 2 km long mountain trail - hill descent was not available on the 2B (nor was ABS, traction control, lockers, etc.). The Off-Road park also has an 80 % concrete descent which did require the use of brakes (all 4WD's do at that angle). I did also find the seating position to be great for viewing and was able to traverse trails where usually a spotter is preferred but had such great view I did not need one. Granted, I have not been overlanding in it so unsure how comfortable that would be after a few weeks of driving 6-8 hours a day. Regarding ground clearance, while I did think it looked a bit low, I tried our approach / departure angle obstacle (20, 30 and 40 degree approach angles) and I was impressed. The Grenadier 2B is the only bone stock 5 door vehicle (besides the old defender) that can traverse the 40 without touching on the break-over (break-over is not 40 btw). Regarding handling, I was impressed at how the suspension handled the 2,800 kg weight of the 2B. I ran it into a bumpy curve on a dirt track at 75 km/h and it handled like a dream - even some of my passengers at the time who are also experienced off-roaders were nervous when they saw the terrain on the turn we were going to hit at speed :). They were amazed at how it handled. I will hopefully get the chance to drive the full production version and can't wait.
Thanks for sharing your experience; from everything I have seen, the left-hand drive version does not have the exhaust tunnel, and the footwell resembles a normal footwell (which can not be said for the RHD version).
I saw the prototype in January and sent them the following comments. “Thanks again for the opportunity to see and ride in the vehicle. I look forward to drive it. I have never owned an old Defender but in the last 6 years, I have owned both the last and current generations of Mercedes G wagon, last and current generations of Wrangler Rubicon and both the 110 and 90 new Defenders. We have a property on a very rocky and mountainous game reserve similar to Samara. The Grenadier is very impressive. But, I have several practical suggestions: -The pedal area is poorly designed on the prototype as if designed by people who don't drive off road. off-road,,,, you usually wear boots, so the pedals are too close together and the left footrest is way too high and dangerous when bouncing around when it is at the level of the brake pedal. -Nice to have would be... a sliding rail to move the rear seat back a bit. There is a lot of space in the boot but the back seat is too tight. - also nice to have would be electric movements of the drivers seat. In steep mountain driving it is good to change the distance to the pedals on the go. -Tyre options like the Iceland heavy mud terrain tyres should be available. K02 tyres are good but poor in mud and not tough enough for SA mountainous rocky conditions. For example the Rubicon comes with KM 3 tyres which are better. When will the price of the options be available? Just FYI at current rates -defender 110 in UK is R1,199,540 and in SA R 1,248,500 -Grenadier in UK R 982,744 and in SA is R1,395,000 Land Rover has no tax credits in SA either. Seems to be a mistake in price strategy ....sorry to be direct.” I still have one on ‘order’ pending a real road test. I hope they have improved things substantially! Especially the pedal box was a bad joke.
The foot well on a RHD Jeep Grand Cherokee is like that and very uncomfortable on a long drive so a valid comment. The fuel tank is the biggest miss in my opinion.
@@dpd6401 Absolutely, on the later models the foot operated parking brake really was in a bad position on RHD models but would have been fine in the LHD models.
A lack of 3rd party options is definitely something to consider seriously. I bought a 6x6 land rover perentie, and now Im trying to add extra fuel tank, upgrade the brakes for better performance etc - cannot really buy anything off the shelf, so it is much harder to research and costs go through the roof. Good video, thanks
I fully concur with your commentary and btw this is a great discussion. The concept is fantastic and I actually like the car a lot but for me, I will wait for a couple of iterations to see how everything performs. Having a BMW engine is great and I know they are very reliable but a concern for AU as everything german costs a fortune to repair/replace. Pricing is also a massive issue, as I priced one with my requirements and came to $118k before stamp duty and LCT, I think is way to high. So at this stage I will be watching with anticipation to see how everything evolves in terms of price and specs. Cheers
Can’t comment about the right hand drive seating position but for the rest of the world with the left side drivers position the Recaro seats are by far the most comfortable seats I’ve ever been in in a 4x4.
$85K in the USA . Gas mileage and service key to my thoughts on the INEOS G. Fact is, it’s not overpriced from my perspective. Especially in the USA. Vehicles are used for the same purposes here, but in reality it’s a fantastic option vis a vie the G-wagon or current Defender. In 2001 the original US spec car was $72.5K. Not a gray market model from Europa @ $135K. I don’t want a mall parking lot poser / mommy-mobile. No offense Moms .. frankly the new Toyota 300 series, not sold in the USA currently, is probably the best 4x4 on the market worldwide. Cult status, and bulletproof for resale and reliability. JMO ..
100% agree.....they have designed an off road vehicle without addressing the basics for going off road. They needed to talk to off road companies and enthusiasts to get to the core ingredients of what makes an off road vehicle excel in all areas!
Best review I have seen yet, agree with all your critique. I would never buy just because of not having the dashboard in front of the driver, I mean who think it's OK to place this in the center? no doubt you know what you are talking about. Thank you!
Thankyou for your thorough review. Your priority list at the start are FAR more important than a mere three priorities, one of which is practically irrelevant - ie: looks. As you highlighted, of critical importance is footwell space in ANY vehicle - especially for long drives (anything over an hour! - which isn't long!) As a civil engineer and 'been there dun that' type in off roading (well before even engel fridges!) - a work vehicle for construction and mine sites where the driver does not have sufficient footroom for a driver when wearing workboots, or gumboots will not get past their doors -- thus a huge market potential has been lost. Similarly is legroom - a major failure in all traditional LR body shapes. People aren't getting smaller (I certainly am not!) so if the Grenadier does not have legroom where somebody of say 1.9m height can stretch legs and move feet around (1.95 preferably to cater for construction types with boots), then rejection will be commonplace as it was in the old landrover - and similar attention to the rear seating. Clearly the only way to remedy this issue is a longer wheel base by say 30 or 40cm - which would solve other design flaws you identified. Then we get onto the drivetrain - oh so much to say, but quickly: As you highlight, lockers and axles need be utterly reliable and OVER engineered ... all the way to and through the transmission of course. It seems to me that the designers have had no experience in other slippery conditions on a wet english farm - thus acceptance will be to that market. Meanwhile, Toyota will continue to deservedly dominate. Peter Cunningham Bowral NSW
I have driven the Grenadier three weeks ago off-road and a short bit of tarmac. Believe me, that is a very strong, solid and capable car. Very good in crawl ratio, no Death Wobble, seating position perfect. I know Toyota´s HZJ by driving myself, driving a Defender 90 vor 25 years every day about 460.000 km although and often in heavy terrain. What my Defender can do off-road, i think the Grenadier can that also. I am astonished about the effortlessness the car on the Bridgestones managed the course (my Defender on MT´s even so). And i am convinced, that the Grenadier can do many things much better than my Defender (like towing heavy trailers). Many tasks my Defender can do without problems off-road, can't do the HZJ with the same lightness. But the Toyota is much better on tarmac and for driving long distance on and off road on light terrain. That is a question of weight, of tires, 4 wheel technic and many more things. The Grenadier is in my opinion, which is based on my self driving experience, a very very good compromise of the other off-road cars. So, it is time for you to revise your opinion to the Grenadier. in some details. That is my opinion.
thanks for your opinion it stil does not address the shortcomings like RHS driving position, limited fuel range, low hanging gear. But I will be happy to update and if required revise my opinion after I get my hand on one and can see how it performs. You would hope it has no death wobble if it’s new my fear is that it’s quite susceptible to it like a Jeep as it’s pretty much same front end set up.
Great video and review. I've never thought of it as a tourer in Australia. You touched on my reason that it wouldn't make a good tourer, that being spares and service. As you have previously found out with your 110 Landrover. This vehicle will be an even lower production and ownership, so outback mechanics would rarely see one and wouldn't be keen to work on it. For remote touring in Australia you have to go with Toyota for genuine and after market parts and service, followed closely by Nissan. The best prepared vehicle will still have some kind of problem when touring. The last thing anyone wants is to have a lengthy wait for parts, or an expensive recovery and transport many thousands of kilometers to a service agent. Great review as always.
agree mate and one reason why I switched from the "better looking" Defender to the more reliable and serviceable Landcruiser and after over 3 years touring in the Landcruiser I can say it was 100% the right decision (as much as I liked many aspects of the Defender).
yep in remote communities every other 4wd we have seen was a 80 or 100 series not to mention pretty much every farmer has at least one 70 series somewhere on the farm.
@@AlloffroadAu we were 120km southeast of Carnarvon WA when we had a wheel bearing go without warning in the old 80series. It damaged the spindle. We limped it back to Carnarvon, went into Repco and they had all the parts in stock. I fixed it in the carpark out the front on Repco. We had waited 3 day's for the same parts in western Sydney after smashing a CV and damaging the spindle before we left on the trip. I doubt we would of got parts for any other model without waiting.
@@waynelemmon3007 I guess that many spare parts would have to be ordered if possible before touring, which would significantly increase the cost of initial cost of ownership, possibly delaying some of the nessasary modifications, delaying a persons touring schedule.
I'm based in the US and I'm very excited about the Grenadier. However, for about US$90k you get much better options. A Toyota 4Runner has similar capabilities and costs US$45k with proven reliability. There are other options out there in that US$50k price range and they can easily be modified to whatever the intended use is and they are still cheaper than the grenadier. I'm afraid the Grenadier will become another luxury SUV for rich people who never really use it for off road or overland. It's still the most exciting 4x4 that was released in the last ten years including the Ford Bronco.
I’m in total agreement about the RHD seating position issue while I also, from experience, do not like the very exposed steering damper. I like the Grenadier a lot but will wait to see how things develope going forward with real exposure and reviews.
First class breakdown on Grenadier potential limitations. I agree with your statements regarding it not being ready for Australia. I really wonder if the limitations will so limit the long-term sales and sustainability especially looking at the premium pricing that make the Landcruiser a more sensible choice.
I want to thank you for your thoughtful comprehensive review. I am near 100% pulling my deposit after the price configurator just got released here in America. Weighing the limitations you've outlined (which I am willing to compromise somewhat) against the inflated price point, it is becoming a risky buy given other 4WD we have got here in America.
Thanks for your honest opinion based on your knowledge. Highly appreciated. - With your view in mind, in this video, you showed me why I (on a limited budget) didn’t wait for the Grenadier but bought a Jimny. That said, IF I was one of the guys WITH the money, I still think I would go for the Grenadier. Because for the ones with that amount of cash cash isn’t a problem. From my point of view, your most interesting point is the locker/-s. Grenadier went for an electrical one, seriously…!!??? Not mentioning the winch option nor the LHD seating position with the weird footwell as my view would ban me from CZcams… Regarding 3rd party accessory suppliers … Give the manufacturers a chance. Look at the Gen4 Jimny. It was released in 2018. Today the marked is flooded with extras for it. I expect the same for the Grenadier in a few years time, ie be patient. 😉
1982 v8 landrover cost $12,000 and is still going great. you just need the basics. however the left foot is cramped by the transmission tunel..you would think this would be fixed in a new car. the next one i buy will probaly be a toyota troop carrier.
Thanks for the thoughtful review. I was very enthusiastic about the grenadier but they should have done better than a Geländewagen developed 50 years ago.
great review....would be interesting to do a direct comparison to a stock Toyota Prado and how both can be modified / costs etc, not talking hard core rock climbing but 95% of what people use their 4x4 for in Australia, think you may be surprised which wins !!
I don't off road, do any of what so many do in upgrading etc..Stock is how it is, for good reason, but for those who do this, I have respect, and have seen amazing results by weekenders that made companies that have made off road vehicles become monsters of capability. The one word that concerned me from Sir Jim....Looks !...To claim the Grenadier will be the ultimate, but see this many areas of genuine engineering issues must be an eye opener. I see advertised capable vehicles becoming mall crawlers, where Looks fit right in. The cost of this vehicle alone puts it way up there, but it is untested by the flocks they want to purchase it. I love and view channels detailing how cars are made, modified, and forgotten because they can be modified, or don't measure up...Toyota has kept the same design, like the original LR, tanks for a reason....they work. Never going to own a Grenadier, but as one person who made a comment here...wait 5 years..After seeing this in depth review, I'd be very concerned that Looks are far from function for that kind of money, or usage in the lands that tame off road vehicles.
Very pertinent points! Very well informed and the vehicle is in deed Eurocentric. Now it no longer looks like it was meant to be a vehicle for you, hard core off roaders. I hope they will listen to you, Andrew and the bunch that actually know your stuff. Thank you for the video and also, if you have not already, share please the road you took to fix the death wobble on you Jeep through a video. I am not a off roader, even though I own two 4wd vehicles that I enjoy very much, I m looking at getting a vehicle that could run through most of the Stuff Europe has to throw at me... I am currently looking at the Gladiator and the Grenadier was also in the back of my mind, reliability is important to me, more than performance as I stick with the EU for now :-) Best wishes to you and I love the way you addressed the hole video, very considerate and intelligent! Respect!
Interesting and thought provoking. Stefan, What a lot of work it must be to put these videos together, not only the production with all the clips inserted into your videos but the time taken to research everything. Amazing work. Do you do this all yourself? On the Grenadier, No its not the perfect 4WD. Like any motor manufacturers they engage marketing companies to sell the vehicle. Most of the people marketing these things probably never have driven on a gravel road, if they have a drivers license at all as they invariably would live in cities. So the hype can be disregarded largely. As you say, in Low range it can go really fast down a hill. That must be good! But what do we mean when we want a 4WD? I have been in the 4wd scene in Australia for 25 years in 4wd clubs and I can not see a bright future for 4WDing. Young people are abandoning clubs as we in clubs try and encourage responsible use of 4wds , the authorities are closing access everywhere. The kind of shots of rock crawling you showed in the clip are being looked at disapprovingly from the conservation groups and forest rangers. As more people go offroad more regulations are being drawn up. 35 inch tyres and bigger make tracks that were passable in a normal family 4wds impossible as they cut them up, digging large ruts. I have first hand experience of this with rangers we work with on adopt a track using their standard vehicles and not being able to get through. Their reaction is to close the track. Then people come along and cut locks, further reaction to this is , install cameras and fine people. So do we need massive lifted and large tyred 4wds anymore? Pretty soon no as there will be few places apart from pay to play 4wd parks that you will be able to use them. For outback touring, lifts and large tyres are not needed. Therefore the Grenadier is probably a player in this segment of the market. I also think looks is a way more important factor than it seems. If we were all just rational we would draw up spread sheets and compare features, capabilities and pricing and end up with a Pajero on top of the list. People buy on gut feeling and looks is very important. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i do like the look of the Grenadier. (But some people think a Citreon 2cv is beautiful as well ) Older 4wds are very capable and simple so many will keep them going while they can afford to run them. The problem is that they are getting tired and needy, (especially my Land Rovers unfortunately) and unless you have a very good mechanic or have the time, workshop and skills to DIY many people will upgrade sooner or later. Its all a compromise.
Thank you sir! Price point is going to be the main factor for real world off roaders. A farmer in the uk is no where near a person needing a dependable, fixable on the go , rugged and reliable vehicle for transport and living.
yes I cant see many engineering limitations as a farm truck (beside price and reliability, parts availability etc) as a proper off road 4wd it has many shortcomings for a supposedly purpose build 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I still see them coming out with an offroader, that will fulfill all your needs as well as those of the people living in organic lands. Once they have established for a few years to cover initial costs, they will come out with affordable and dependable variants...as you mentioned ! Its all about moneys trickling down .
Nice to see some critical evaluation of this new car. As Suzuki fanboy myself I am not into overlanding but some serious off roading...everybody has special needs and I think not one unmodified vehicle off them dealerships can deliver. You will have to make it your own. happy trails!
100 percent, so modifiability is very important and the Grenadier has not many options there in the way it's layed out at least in regards to fuel tanks etc..
Great video mate. I definitely agree with you with regard to the space for your feet. It looks to me that it was designed for the LHD market. I went from a Y61 patrol to a new Jeep Commander and it’s foot well was cramped compared to the Patrol & horrible over the long distance. Even my 76 series is cramped but I’d say better compared to the Ineos.
Thank you Stefan for an in-depth analysis, I am not sure if it will be able to safely negotiate the sand dunes in the Middle East due to it only it’s weight, break over angle but mainly it’s front & rear end ground clearances. Middle East is a big market for SUV’S and the terrain is mostly soft sand, I wonder if it will be able to compete with the likes of LC, Jeep Wrangler, Nissan Patrols that have rules the roost and New Bronco that seems equally capable. Let’s wait & watch how the production version comes out & then we will be in a better position to pass a verdict.
I think stock it can not compete, lets see how easy it is to put 35" underneath and if the other components are up for it. I will when I get my hand on a final car.
New to the channel, loved the video, German precision 👌. I sat in the prototype today, loved it, but after the video, reconsidering if I should put down a deposit. I’ll wait till the first ones are delivered, which should be soon.
I guess it depends on your needs, when i priced one up, it was quite competitive with a LC and surpassed it in load carrying and towing. The foot well business I didn't know about. That is a major failing in my books. The fact that it comes with a BMW diesel and transmission is the best option for a European maker, but not so sure compared to Japanese/Thailand made vehicles.
@@Owhunter-ki3fn I'm sure their engineering is superior, but if it breaks what will it cost to fix and will the guy with the spanner at dingo piss creek know how to do the job?
And people cried about the new defender...when I look at this price right here, I'm pretty happy that I've ordered the new defender instead of this....thanks for the video!
Hi, Stefan, a thoroughly detailed review. Although I ordered one, I share some of these consturctive opinions. However, it might not suit everyone's purpose as long as they are not the deal-breaker for you. It is a medium-size 4wd, and doesn't have the capacity of Landcruiser, and Patrols. I hope the LWB dual-cab ute will be better for Overlanding 4WD with LRT, and I am happy with a 33" AT for the general touring purpose.
Hi Gary, yes I agree 33" for touring will do in most cases, Grenadier sits very low but keen to see how it looks once someone fully loads it up to GVM. I'm also keen to see the longer Dual Cab Ute maybe they incorporate some changes and also have a bigger fuel tank.
Your criteria list is way better. I must admit that I really like the G but I did see a few things that made me think that waiting was the best way to go. Of course price matters too and once you get the mid range two seater optioned up with just the basics, you’re already in the LC300 GXL pricing territory and at that rate, I’ll just hang onto my LC200 for a bit longer and wait for the 300.
Wow! This sets the bar for car reviews from an off-Roaders perspective! Thanks for such a detailed review. I’m wondering if you have a perspective of wheel articulation of the Ineos? As solid as the 70 series is they seem to lift a lot of wheels due to a lack of flex. I’m wondering if Ineos has thought of this
I was also not to impresses how it flexes so far it sure does not look like a long travel suspension but I also have not see the Grenadier do any proper technical driving or technical obstacles where you could properly evaluate flex.
This not a review but a preview of one's opinion. Since said creator has not driven the final product but has created his opinion based on limited facts derived from the web and test ride of a early prototype. Once he has driven the final product and 3rd party manufactures have provided opitions based upon his requirements, can one give a full review. The other point that i would like to point out is price and value are often conflate. One can buy a 70 series for a lower price but the buyer may receive less value for their purchase. But value is subjective. What I may view as value might be different than you. So one is willing to pay more for the value they believe they are receiving.
@@ntdawg I am a stickler for reality. I have no problem with giving a opinion but I give opi ions based upon all facts. For example, in the video, he discussed the death wobble. Did he state the video is from a prototype? Has it been it confirm that their is a death wobble? Does the current iteration have the death wobble? Finally, yes I do have a order for one. I will have a different use than the reviewer. I also dont rely on individuals like him to make my decisions in life. I form my opinions based upon personal experience. Currently I have no opinion on the Grenadier until I drive one at end of 2022. If you would like me to provide you a REVIEW once I am done let me know.
@@peopleschamp7258 please give us an update when you take delivery. As well as death wobble I’m interested to know what the pedal and foot rest positions are in the production version how easy it is to put bigger tyres on and how the wheels articulate over moguls
You're series of videos on the Grenadier have been unbiased, analytical, knowledgeable and consistent while avoiding the trap of new vehicle hype. History has proven there are often problems with first model runs of a completely new vehicle, no matter how good. It's the reason why I would never buy the first model of a completely new vehicle from ANY manufacturer. No doubt, Ineos with iron out these problems and shortcomings in successive models.
All information in the video based on the prototype..... We have the production vehicle here and are simply enthusiastic about the vehicle. Definitely the best basis for a modern off-road vehicle.
I have built 4wd’s for the past 12 years. Have owned twelve 4wd in that time, I work as a 4wd driver trainer and assessor and have dealt with every 4wd available in Australia and then some. I usually 4wd technically weekly, I 4wd tour several months a year, often in very remote areas, trackless and without external support.. I would be pretty bad at what I’m doing if I could not assess the suitability or shortcoming of a vehicle I have seen several times and driven as a passenger in, not to mention there are also tons of information and video footage available of the Grenadier I studied. It does not need to be a rocket scientist to recognise all the things I mention in my videos. I’m not saying it’s a bad utility vehicle (reliability is one thing I can not assess) but for RHD people, in particular, it’s not a well-designed 4wd and that is just from an ergonomic factor. I drive several times a year 2000-4000km just to the start of my trip I can tell you the footwell space is a big issue for taller people on long drives. All the other issues I mention in my video are also pretty obvious, like messy and shallow underbody, little ground clearance, very little suspension travel for a solid axle vehicle, low-hanging steering dampers, no room for additional fuel tanks, low sitting batteries under the seat, no central instrument cluster, not fully folding rear seat and the list goes on. All things which should have been addressed for a from ground up purpose build 4wd. We have plenty of better options in Australia ( you probably not so many in Europe) for instance, a rebuilt 105 or 100 Series Toyota, a 70 Series Toyota, a rebuilt GQ Patrol 4.2, a new Patrol Y62, A G Class, Landcruiser 200 or 300 Series. Several utes like a Hilux, Raptor, and a Jeep Gladiator to name a few. Of course, all have pros and cons and need some modifications, but they have proven reliability or even unreliability; they have all modifications available and are based on proven platforms where you know all pros and cons and know all workarounds. And none of these cars is advertised as a purpose build from ground-up developed 4wd. In most cases, they will be, even with modifications, cheaper than a specked-up Grenadier.
@@AlloffroadAu I really don't understand it.... The ground clearance of the Ineos is more than that of the G-Class... The radiator at the front was raised to achieve an angle of departure that only a few vehicles have... The payload is higher than with a G class... Didn't you realize that over 400 G-Classes were recalled last year because the rear axle broke? The relatively short wheelbase of the Ineos easily makes it a better off-roader than the Gladiator. The only point where I agree with you is the problem with the size of the tank... but again, where should the volume be taken from when the manufacturer is obliged to install the AdBlue nonsense? Even when designing the rear seats, the manufacturer has to meet thousands of requirements, such as the specifications for occupant protection and the mandatory points for child seats. More ground clearance means a higher center of gravity, which in turn makes it extremely difficult for off-roaders to meet the side impact tests... All hurdles that have to be overcome and that are different in every country... In the end, there simply isn't much room left...
G class is not something I compare it against much in OZ, as they are pretty much non-existent here for off-road use. Again you look at figures, not reality the departure angle is greatly hampered by the low-hanging steering damper which is only a matter of time until it's ripped off. The low-hanging fuel tank (and that only a 90l tank) cops hiding, the low-hanging rear trailing arm mounts are not good. There are plenty of examples in Ineose's promo videos where the steering damper makes impact with the easy obstacles because its acts like a catcher for all sorts of things. Keep in mind Grenadier has been designed by a Designer who has never designed a car before, let alone is a 4wdriver and that shows. I know that, especially in Europe, compliance is hard nowadays, and it may do OK in Europe because you don't have other options. Jeep Gladiator would also not be my choice, but the benefit is that you have tons of options available for instance, you can run 37" legally here in OZ (engineered), which negates the longer wheelbase ramp over angle. We will see maybe I will change my mind in two or three years when we see what's available and what workarounds can be found, but as it presents itself now it's not something I can get excited about as my long-range remote tourer as it has well to many compromises and uncertainties, especially for the asking price. Fortunately, at present, we have way better options available here in OZ.
Actually, I don't think the Grenadier was ever intended to be the perfect 4wd. It's not the target market. It's way too heavy, too long, too low and too wide. As you note, this isn't a vehicle that's friendly to modifications, at least not yet. I don't think it was intended to be such a vehicle. Anyone who can afford it is unlikely to heavily modify it or they'd choose a better platform. No one is buying a Grenny (I may trademark that) to go rock crawling. I think the target market positioning for this vehicle is where LR used to be in the late 90's (for US anyway). A decently rugged and capable vehicle, bought by owners who consider a rough gravel road as "offroading" LR is a luxury vehicle now...too expensive to risk a real offroad adventure. In addition, there's WAY too much electronic stuff to break. We all know LR's reputation with wiring and electronics (Lucas quality control is a perfect example of an oxymoron). LR's were very unreliable before they added all the complexity (I've owned two Discos...loved them except for the bad reliability). Yes, it would be great to have a true utilitarian 110 replacement that's simple to mod and repair. But unfortunately, those days are long gone I'm afraid.
Yes, I'm not going to be rushing out to buy one. Thankfully my Y61 CRD Nissan Patrol only has 65,000 odd kilometres on the odo, it's not something that I'm likely going to need to decide on for a little while. Hopefully. I wrote to the company and ACTIVELY encouraged them to test in Australia. Like you, I got no response, either.
Great review. Proof will be in the pudding when it’s finally delivered to Aussie customers. Lack Service Centres is definitely a down side in a such large country as ours. Maybe they will increase as popularity with the vehicle increases. Pity Holden don’t take up the servicing as there were loads of them around that have now closed. I do like that there is another high priced option in the market and will certainly make most people think twice about a LC 300 or even a high spec new defender.
I had one of the first Gen8 Hilux’s when they were released in late 2015. I also had one of the earliest LC300’s on the road back in Dec ‘21. I currently have a new Ram DT variant. In each case it took a while before aftermarket manufacturers could design and release products suitable for what I needed. And in every case each of these brand new models had early teething issues. I probably will end up with a Grenadier at some point too but this time I will wait a) for the aftermarket producers to catch up and b) for Grenadier to iron-out some of the initial and inevitable faults that the first release will undoubtedly have.
After watching your informative video, I will only look at the 2nd gen version . The death wobble really got me thinking? Whilst a good few of your points regarding range/ tire up sizing and suspension upgrades won't be an issue for most " Grey nomad " users-the final package price is getting up there for items that should be standard fitment-the difflocks for example. Great insights, thou 🤔👍🙂
Thank you for this detailed review and I feel it is aligned with most of my observations of the car. It is a pity that they did miss the target on a number of vital elements.
It would be awesome if they'd offer it as a roller. Maybe they've dropped their ambitions for full customization when they realized the difficulty in getting it certified globally and stuck to one tank, wheel and gear set-up. I get the engine choice was likely strategic in bringing them a ready made distribution network. BMW doesn't have a comparable vehicle so they can scratch each other's backs. It would be bitchin if the provided suspension could receive larger tires at time of release, and you could spec out gears, and or add an optional aux tank. If those boxes were ticked it would go a long way for US sales. Mostly it would be cool if you could get a rolling unit - bare from either the transfer case or the drive shaft up (like all of the kits and rollers you can buy such as the Rally Fighter). It will fail with regular folks here if it's too tricky to add tires and lift, even more than the tank. Most of the first years production will go to CZcamsrs, prospectors, collectors, people with several vehicles and enough resources they will be in video shoots and garages more than our where we can touch them. Sure some upper middle class folks that fancy themselves global overland travelers who defiantly swear there is no need for more than a 31 will get them for daily drivers so they can put oval stickers and union jacks on them. The whole point of this was to be all mechanical, live axl, all around customizable. Sucks it's gonna be over 100k forgetting that the initial buzz was generated because you could get it new, set how you wanted loaded for 50 to 90 because it would be mechanical and economies of scale with those custom parts in a built unit would be cheaper that short run aftermarket. The number has creeped somewhere, and this is before the inflation this year that's still evening out. Now it's expected 75 minimum before the dealer sharks get you and 100 minimum for what we see in the pictures. Thinking 120, 150 to get it where you want it. Could SAS, lock and swap then fab a camper body on a Ford focus for that. I had been itching to reserve a slot, I would go into hock for a vehicle like I expected at 60, with a buffer to outfit and dealer trouble, 80 out the door when it's all over, bent over the bench, but I'd be willing, for the dream, exactly what I'd want, and it would last. But the base has risen to my buffer, the hook price to get you started is 75, no way you're under 85 at signing, more like 100 if the dealers aren't going. And I still have to put the bed in the back. Maybe a seatless option. There will eventually be flood damaged ones and such, then we can see about an LS or a solid underpowered 4.0 or the right VQ out of a 6 speed 2nd gen frontier, or the 8 out of an armada/titan (sadly I can't say patrol). Guess we gotta wait for them to get old and plain looking anyway so we don't look like the jackpot gold mine when we're sleeping under the trees.
Superb commentary from both the user and engineering perspective. The value proposition is indeed questionable in the first version. But as you say much can change in time. Full marks to the INEOS team for getting this far though! Now let's see where they go from here. If they can reclaim the ground Toyota and Nissan stole from Land Rover decades ago, that will be a great accomplishment. Living in Canada but working a lot as an engineer in MENA, I get to experience both extremes: hot and dry plus cold, deep snow and muddy. We have Toyotas in both theatres because of performance and reliability in pretty much all conditions. When INEOS can achieve that at a competitive price point, or deliver something exceptional that justifies a higher price, then we will consider buying one or two for the fleet. For now, we stick with what works. I look forward to your subsequent commentary.
Very good review Stefan, and I agree with everything you pointed out. The footwell design looks like it could be a disaster. The speedo is in a rediculous position in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what people think of driving the vehicle long distance on the bitumen, as it is a long way between places of interest. It might be ok driving around the Lord Muck's farm in England, but it will be interesting to see how it handles Oz.
yep, very different sitting in one for a short test drive real ergonomic issues you will find out after a few hours behind the wheel. A 10k round trip is not unusually in OZ and I dare to say it would be quite uncomfortable
@@AlloffroadAu I doubt they design for eg Aus. It's too small a market to warrant such attention. Realistically few people will ever take their 4wds into places so extreme or if they do they will hopefully do as Stefan has...build a vehicle to suit that purpose...which of course for most folk costs a fortune. Eg we're 30k plus into a GQ Patrol built for such extreme use.
Extremely well done review after several years experience in the Busches of Africa (construction) and a terrible experience with a South African build Land Rover (turbo charger seized e no chance to have a proper repair done)
Brother just subbed you I'm an Irish man living in San Diego. I am thinking about pulling the trigger on one of these rigs but, to be honest as long as the safari windows don't leak and its reliable I can live with its short comings. ideally id want a base vehicle with diff locks and a 2" lift would be nice as well. This is important when they say you can build your own rig its bullshit......unless you are prepared to wait months. in the US they will peddle these trucks with what ever features and try and upsell you into something that your don't want. I hope INEOS does not water down the platform to make money in the U.S. at the expense of its off road prowess. image is almost more important over her over capability hence the term Mall Crawler. I am however excited about having an option to a jeep or Toyota pick up or new bronco. I hope I'm not disappointed. The exhaust reminds me of a chieftain tank lol
While I agree with all of your observations mechanically, the looks are VERY important in this case. They copied the old Defender since LR stupidly abandoned its icon. The owner of Ineos copied it for that reason, PRIMARILY. He wanted to make what LR should have made instead of the over-engineered design that they did. LR even lost its case against Ineos for copying their abandoned design. I hope they work out the shortcomings, and beat LR on principle, for turning their back on a world renowned icon. I think they're doing OK for their first vehicle design, so far. Hopefully your assessments will be heard and addressed!
Great thoughtful overview. My issue with the Grenadier has always been just how similar it is to old 4x4s with very little in the way of thoughtful innovation or personality. I’m all for a raw, simplistic, authentic off roader, but I’d rather it did it’s totally own thing, and address more of the shortcomings of older models at the same time
So I like it, I have driven one but it’s 50k dearer than a new jeep rubicon, (NZD) and it’s no better off-road and lacks things like radar cruise and sway bar disconnect.
What standard car (with genuine options by the manufacturer) would fit your liking?? You are criticizing the only brand that wants to build a real 4x4.
Bronco? Jeep? Patrol? Land Cruiser?
---- UPDATE September 2022 ---------
I sat in the latest model, which according to Ineos, is pretty much done besides some small changes under the bonnet and cosmetic stuff. In my opinion, the seating position is bad for someone my size, while I sat in the back, two other people who were around my height jumped into the driver's seat and said exactly the same to their friends. If you are anywhere around 190cm, I strongly suggest sitting in one before buying. For me, it's definitely ruled out as a tourer as the seating position is nothing that you can modify or change.
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There are a few heated opinions here, and I do value all constructive feedback and will never delete such; however, become disrespectful, I will delete your comments.
These are my opinions based on my experience and research. If you don't like to hear concerns or shortcomings, don't watch the video.
If you create a purpose-built 4wd for enthusiasts and professionals and make it available as a ProtoType you will get more scrutiny from people who know what they are looking at and see shortcomings.
In my opinion better to know possible shortcomings now than after spending 130k. What I mentioned does not concern or affect you? No problem, it seems to be the right car for you, and that is perfectly fine.
I see this video as one part of the puzzle to making an informed purchase decision.
Your got too much experience to know what works and what doesn’t
Spending over 100K is serious business
Heaps appreciate the wisdom your sharing
Keep ‘em coming!! 🤙
Absolute respect for your wisdom access points (WAPs) clear, reasoned analysis backed up with much experience n real world situations. People can either take them onboard or not - but the consumers need independent reviews like this to guide their timing on purchasing decisions. Thanks very much for sharing your incite and opinion.
This is a more balanced video than your first one. I think the confusion comes from you spending alot of time listing faults with a vehicle which is not really designed for your application. Your current over landing rig looks bad ass and i don't see how the IG would ever be better than that for your use. I think you summed it up when you said it was designed and built for Europe which it is and with that comes a lot of regulation and compromise. It might not be perfect but it will have it's niche for people who want reliable and robust in a compact package (alot of AUS/ US trucks are just too big for Europe) and who don't need 180litres of fuel capacity! Interesting what you say about the E lockers as i probably don't need them but people are saying to spec them for resale value as people will want them specced. Offset pedals suck so hopefully that is sorted somewhat. The over head switches are cool so probably worth a small compromise
@SCMTBCoach the Landcruiser 105 was also never designed as a long range tourer but it could be easily converted into one. A good purpose build 4wd provides a base where you can make out of it what you want and one of the main issues with the Grenadier is that it does not provide that platform. Is it a bad 4wd? I don't think so but time will tell, but it sure does not have the overwhelming distinguishable feature it was supposed to have as a purpose build 4wd. It has as many if not more pros and cons than many other 4wd on the market and you just need to see which ones you can better live with. Given it's a small volume vehicle at present you have actually way less options than with any other 4wd and Ineos has engineered the Grenadier in a bit of a cull de sac in regards to modifiability. Will it still suit people? Sure it will and I hope enough so we see an improved version 2 maybe with more input from people who actually 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I think the thing is could a vehicle as you want it have been created in 2022 and meat European regs? I am not an expert so i don't know but I think that anything that would have added weight was off the table as it is already heavy and has a gross vehicle limit of 3500kg (including payload)
As a long time CJ and Wrangler owner, my absolute love with the looks of the Grenadier has always been tinged with bit of…wariness. At this point I think I still want one, but you’ve definitely given me more to consider. Thank you!
Thanks for sharing
What Wrangler do/did you own? 2- or 4-door? What year? I’m possibly interested in owning a second-hand 4-door Wrangler in the future.
@@timtim2949, between my original comment and now I have retired, so my current 4-door Wrangler is going to me my forever-car by necessity - I don’t think I’m going to be able to afford a Grenadier when if finally makes it to the States.
@@AlloffroadAu Hi, departure angle of the quartermaster does not look great.
I have a gladiator and I test drove one of these. It’s nice but lacks a lot of stuff the jeep has. Also, it’s a lot more expensive.
The Grenadier is a ground breaking vehicle in the history of 4 wheel drive vehicles, combining traditional, functional design with modernity in a very welcome way. I think your comments are all reasonable and accurate critiques of a first generation car company and specialty vehicle. as compared to your wish list. And once the company begins delivering vehicles to customers we will all see the collective real world experience here on youtube. The tough call is whether to buy one, knowing that future model years will only bring improvements in options [gas tank size?] and fit and finish. Look at Ford's pandemic influenced, flawed roll out of the Bronco with defective hard tops, and probably many other fit and finish issues to clean up. And that's by a traditional OEM. Regarding the Grenadier, what gives me a high degree of confidence in a successful roll out are the partners involved in the design and assembly, specifically Magna Steyr, the maker of the legendary G Wagon. [compare the door handles between the two vehicles😉] Also, consider that the Grenadier is being assembled at a former but very modern plant of Mercedes, with the same workforce, suggests a high level of competence and commitment to high quality construction. [The plant will still produce various small MBZ models, per press reports.] The reputation of all of these partners is at stake world wide. All of these factors instill a level of confidence that the vehicle will be reliable and of high quality from the beginning.
And one more comment - even though the there's obvious inspiration and motivation to continue the Defender lineage, this vehicle has more in common with the German G Wagon - design, technically, size and proportions, and production lineage.
hm I agree with many things you say I'm just not as confident that there will be future vehicles, In comparison to Ford, Ineos Car is a one-trick pony. I also don't think that any other manufacturers' reputation is on the line they just supply parts to a niche manufacturer, which is very common in the industry. My concern is that from what I have seen so far, Ineos does not have a team of people who really understand 4wd that is from development all through to their ground staff, who test and even market the vehicle. Mind you, I hope you are right, and future versions will improve on the shortcomings. If future models turn out better, I will more than happily agree that I'm wrong. If the Grenadier is still talked about a year after being in the customer's hand, I will also get my hand on a second-hand one and see what is possible and likely will be touring with one beforehand. I have no ill feelings towards Ineos or the car I just call it how I see it.
An extremely professional and thorough review with expert knowledge of the subject. Every 4-wheel driver's gold standard, let the manufacturers take notice.
The real deal is not the pitch but the patch the vehicle can cope with.
Wow. That seating error is an immediate deal breaker. As a seating professional for over 30 years, I'm impressed you made that your first point. Overall, your observations are very astute. Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Excellent review. Absolutely spot on that you really don't want to be that "first customer" to buy one in Australia or Southern Africa and drive off into the wild blue yonder. My thoughts are to wait at least 5 years into production before seriously considering the Grenadier in Australia
They wont be around in 5 years if nobody buys one
Already been tested in Australia and deserts across the world, including Namibia in Africa, and as far away as Alaska, Iceland and Norway. The engine has been proven as one of the most reliable engines in the 330d and BMWX5 for more than 10 years and the transmission equally solid built by ZF. Any Bosch or BMW dealer will be able to service the vehicle.
😂😂
100 percent agree with literally everything you said (from the U.S.). Fortunately we apparently get a 100 L tank over here. I don't know why, but we do, and that's good. Also since our steering wheel is on the left, our foot room might be more natural. The biggest draw-backs for me, and frankly what is keeping me from buying this first version, is that it doesn't seem to have much room for growth of wheel size. Absolutely zero people are going to get smaller tires, so they should set up the geometry of the control arms etc., as if their tires are the absolute smallest it will perform well with. In other words, leave geometry room such that 35" can be placed without rubbing or replacing the control arms, AND offer an optional lower final gear ratio. This is key. Bronco got that right and the 4x4 industry is following suit, not that I'm comparing the two rigs. The concept of this rig being modular is great... but it seems to come out of the shop limited in this fundamental way for a 4x4. I know those in the UK probably don't like to hear when you said it's built too for the UK... but the point of the vehicle is to sell and perform all around the world.
100% agree and the beauty of that is that you keep everyone happy, people who like to drive it stock have no issue and on and off-road behaviour will likely be better with longer arms. People who want bigger could do so without jumping trough hoops so everyone is happy. Thats approach to me makes a good foundation for a purpose build 4wd.
I'm speculating that the US petrol (B58) version can accommodate a 100L tank probably because there's no provision required for the Ad Blue reservoir... which is described elsewhere as having a 17L capacity for the B57 diesel...
@@denism2171 Sounds like a good speculation to me! 10% increased fuel is good in my book. I can get far enough for my use, which is a typical use... weekend warrior type with very occasional very long trip.
Hi Buddy I have mine on order as we in Aus will get them before you guys cant figure out why you get a 100 litre tank and we don't . I may have to ask them. With past experience with Nissan patrols if you fit 35 tyres it is common to fit a 50mm lift kit which does not require replacing steering arms as cambers are not affected. 100 mm lift and you will have to modify the suspension.
@@johnswinkels4383 excited for you brother! I've got the reservation payment in back in February in case I feel good about it when we get our turn. I feel fortunate to see all of you guy's videos before we get pressed to make a decision. Hopefully the geometry is still good with 35" tires, I just kinda doubt it given the length of the control arms, causing geometry to change lots for every inch lifted. I'm guessing a 3" lift or so would be good... give or take. But in OZ it might be perfect as is, if they figured out the "death wobble" shown in the video, and you don't want to lift much. I wonder how long the control arms are compared to the Nissan. She's new and exciting either way and I hope to see your video as you're up to some shenanigans!
You'd be nothing short of brave and deep pocketed to take a gamble on this. Thing could turn out to be a 160k lemon and we havent talked about its resale value yet.
Very interesting to hear your objective analysis, there are many flaws you highlight that I hadn't considered!
I live in BC, Canada where I live play and work in the back country. I agree with a lot of your comments but need to say that this vehicle is not designed and marketed as a 'rock crawler' therefore should not be judged too harshly against some of your personal trucks that you do or have owned and modified. There is a huge market for 4Wd 'Sports Utility Vehicles' here and most are not designed with purely driving in dried river beds, rocky canyons, fording creeks etc.
To launch a new vehicle into an already saturated market and to make it a profitable venture it should appeal to the mass market. Many 4WD enthusiasts here are very competent at rebuilding old trucks and SUV's to play in the dirt, I have friends who are passionate about this. These enthusiasts probably spend 1/3 to 1/2 as much as it would cost to buy the Grenadier. Also we need to look at the environment in which the Ineos Grenadier will be marketed, true some will likely be bought by those who work and live remotely in the Outback or harsh Northern environments...but a lot will not, they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs.
Originating in the "Land Rover' community of the UK, I hoped that Ineos might have tried to create a basic, almost minimalistic, vehicle that would be very durable, easy to work on, very affordable and that could be customized by the consumer at a later date to raise its specification and adaptive to individual needs. I think the entry price point is too high and the 'full option' cost puts it into the league of the increasingly popular Range Rovers, high specification Jeep Wranglers and high performance, 'off road' pick up trucks such as the Ford F150 Raptor and the Dodge Ram TRX...I can't see Ineos gaining a market when competing with any of these vehicles. Thanks for a well executed review.
Hm, I never ever compared the Grenadier against my Rock Crawler my comparison is mainly against my 105 Landcruiser, which is precisely in the same vehicle category and a touring vehicle. I think the main issue is that Ineos built a platform that has quite a few shortcomings and shows that no 4wd experts were involved in the design. It's just not as customisable as many other 4wd on the market at present.
I do entirely agree with your statement, "they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. " and I think it's perfectly suited for that market. You have many other cars already in this market segment, and Ineos just adds another option to that segment, it is not the class-leading purposes build 4x4 it was advertised to be, though.
Extremely informative video. Don't worry about the keyboard warriors, you are sharing your perspective based on your significant experiences and that will help a lot of people make their own decisions with their own criteria. One of the most useful videos I've seen yet. Keep up the great work.
I appreciate that!
I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted the death wobble. (I think the only reason we got to see that video is it was 3rd party from the BMW bike event and not Ineos themselves). It definitely feels that the majority of people are over the honeymoon period with the grenadier and, unfortunately, its short comings are starting to appear.
That being said Ineos are all too keen to tell everyone that these are prototypes, so it'll be interesting to see if the final production vehicles have the same issues!
As I mentioned I have no doubt the Grenadier from factory will not have a dead wobble just wondering if it's as susceptible to it as the Wranglers with a very similar front set up. Time will tell .
A very honest video. I love the Genadier concept but as an Australian Outback/desert tourer, it will not make the grade. The current Troopcarrier runs rings around it for outback touring.
Awesome work as usual Stef. Like you, I had high hopes on the Grenadier but have been left very short on the product being delivered. Unlike you, I thought the way this product was marketed, that it SHOULD have been offered off the forecourt with an option for 35's. 33's should surely be standard. Completely agree on the the short arm WAs, death wobble possibility. Actually agree on the lockers, the clearance, the limited fuel capacity, the footwell, the overhead controls, the winch option, gearing etc.
I had the Grenadier on my interest list, and it will go back on that list if they look to local support from someone like yourself, perhaps with support from the local modifier suppliers - not formula 1 drivers, ice-cream van people, or rally drivers. But people who actually know 4wd. You've quoted two other 4wd specialists in this vid, and as it goes, that is three of four who are the only 4wd specialists in my CZcams feed. Grenadier would find it hard doing better than bringing you three to the table.
Just do it Grenadier. If you take it seriously, you will love the result.
@Dru Spork...no product has yet been delivered.....so what are you actually talking about?
There seems to be a disconnect with actual serious off road use.
One could not have expressed in a better way . Well done mate 👌🏽
That footwell intrusion is terrible for a tall driver.Thumbs up to Jim for kicking this off,
the left steered cars most likely wont have the exhaust in the way. I like a few things about it. The one central roof panel 4x4 switch switches off all modern electronic controls at ones. There is a aux battery in the rear. Prewired outside light switches in the roof, so when camping/sleeping in the back, they are easy accessible. The grenadier reminds me on the early G class. Two roof windows 👍🏽 Alloy doors, the rest in steel, german made ladder frame and solid axles, compared to the Defender. You got to design a car like this for modern times first, that has to be understood. Look at the new Defender
images I have seen from LHD have a much smaller footrest so should be much better for you guys driving in n the “wrong” side of the road
Thank you Stephan as usual for your very informative and unbiased video. I have been following the INEOS for the past 18 months and always felt that their videos are not really helpful for things I want to know, but are done by fanboys/ salesmen. Good to hear your view that confirmed this hunch. You however have been very modest in titling this video as such, I must say!
I put my deposit down. I did a test drive. It did well. One small thing that got me, the backseat don't fall flat. I have a 1976 international scout ii and it has that capability. I just traded my 2012 Range Rover Sport with 91,000 for a 2001 Landcruiser!
As an ex-Defender owner (200 TDI 110 CSW, for six years 1990 to 1996 after a Ninety soft top) I'm presently in a rented LHD 110 SW Defender in Iceland (Ford Transit propulsion, probably from around 2015 and 128,000 km). It is today an utter relic, with a terrible offset pedal driving position, has lost the ventilation flaps of old and the flat tea mug dashboard, plus I don't remember stupidity with my own Defender's headlight switch clashing with the ignition key. Some other bad traits include reluctance to shed rpm resulting in driveline shunt however hard you try for smooth gear changes, terrible turning circle, appallingly rough ride on corrugated and potholed 'F' roads and of course the door seals leak in dust and water. BUT it is ridiculously parsimonious on fuel and it's the coolest thing on four wheels in the rental scene. Grenadier's closest rivals seems to me to be the commercial variants of the G Wagen, two of which have been my daily driver for over 20 years. I really hope Ineos soft sell some Grenadiers into the Icelandic rental market, as a week thrashing about in the wilds provides time to either bond or discover why you can't tolerate a vehicle. Hopefully Grenadier's development process has ironed out issues causing the latter.....although some valid gripes are clearly emerging. Update edit, 90km today in limp mode after suspected turbo failure or intercooler hose split. Hoping the Icelandic rental market gets some good deals on Grenadier fleets as the Defenders need retiring!
Wow!! Finally an off-roader that was not star struck by this vehicle to the point of soiling their good name and reputation by gushing over it simply because it "looks" like an old Defender and has solid axles. The number of complex issues, known and unknown, that a start up company has to overcome will be the achilles heal of Ineos for the near future. Give this brand 5 years and it will most likely be a top choice for the serious off-roader.
Awesome and thorough review! I agree with everything you have said in this video 100%. Despite the grenadiers shortcomings, I am still happy that they have built a dual solid axle vehicle that can hopefully be revised in the future to eliminate its current issues that you highlighted in the video. This may make it a legendary four wheel drive that can be used as a tourer and for tough tracks. Keep up the great content.
Thanks mate, I'm also keen to see what I think in a year after the Grenadier is on the market and used in public for some time. I'm also keen on what Ineos comes up with in the future after all this is only version 1.
Good video. We are going to need to disagree on the necessity for 35s on a tourer though, I find 32-33 adequate. I'm just happy INEOS have made a good offroad/overland/touring 4x4 even if it's not perfect! And I too was appalled by the "gold standard" descent - I'd say that was in high range, and hurtling down a slope is not my idea of control. However, creative agencies typically focus on speed rather than control, and care not about the impact on the car or the environment.
yep would agree with 33" being suitable for most touring, for my remote Desert touring it just gives me some added capability and safety margin and options to safely air down lower.
@@AlloffroadAu Also to add, I agree that 35's are a good idea because of the low hanging, protuding componants. A Nitto Trail Grappler MT 35/11.50r17(265/85r17) would be my choice(fits on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), idealisticlly speaking if availability permits or a 35x12.50r17 KM3(295/75r17 on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), with a 3 inch lift for "touring"(given that the base model is 1 inch to low, because otherwise it would be a 2 inch lift). I think that a 1 inch lift and 285/70r17(17×7.5) should be a from the factory option. I think that a 3000mm/118 inch wheelbase would have been better than the approximately 2925mm/115 inch wheelbase, and combined with greater distance between the body and frame and a 100L standard/150L OEM optional tank for diesel and petrol models.
I have been on a test in France and 1st low was as you would expect probably a bit slower than my L322 Range Rover. Definitely not as in the video.
All your concerns sound absolutely valid, certainly as you look at all the needs of free time 4x4 drivers. On the other side, if I look at the dimension (room for euro pallet), high trailing capacity, beefy body plating. First for and for all, this 4x4 might become a popular workhorse for construction contractors. To transport small cranes, Bobcats, welding rigs... on a trailer. They want good maneuverability on muddy jobsites and safe trailing on the highway.
yep I can definitely see it working well for that or a farm vehicle. Fuel range, low ground clearance, seating positions are no issues as people will not spend prolonged time in it.
The Grenadier sounds like a rich man’s vehicle. Unfortunately this is not an option for me, especially if I am going to take it off-road.
I think your video is spot on, there are many decisions on the Grenadier that depreciate it's value as a touring vehicle, especially when heading remote outback. I think buying one at this stage for touring would be foolish, or must acknowledge they're definitely in the early adopter stage and will have issues as such. There's also many things that could possibly change (as per the Ineos PR reps) between the proto and the final production units - will be good to see if they took criticisms on board...
I think it's a pretty simple misinterpretation by many that it would be good at remote touring and modifying by design. Ineos instead have designed it as a "real" 4wd for work, not as a recreational toy (like it or not, is what most touring/modified vehicles are). The promo material I've seen has tended this way. Looking at the vehicle and talking with Ineos reps on the prototype tour it confirmed that this is aimed more at business purposes. There have been some reports with PR people talking about touring as well, but it's pretty obvious that this was way at the back of the mind. The reps I spoke with were quite open that there are better vehicles for modifying.
There are many design decisions that, in theory at least, would make this great on a worksite, be it a farming (although better in dual/cab or CC style), towing trailers, trade site, mine (would be a brilliant torture test - mines are ridiculously harsh on vehicles). Businesses have the capability to buy many more of these things than enthusiasts ever will and as such will be the primary market.
Many of these design decisions that make the vehicle better stock, go against design lending to modifying for enthusiast levels - minimal wasted space underneath for additional fuel etc, suspension designed to best suit current setup vs lifted etc. There is no point designing suspension, for example, to cope with a 4-6in lift, it that design has a marked detrimental impact on stock handling - when the bulk of the vehicles will never be lifted.
Assuming Ineos can follow up on their service & parts plans, I reckon the 1st version will be great at it's intended use (on work sites), but i we'll have to wait for version 2 refinement to see if they are able to cater for enthusiasts as well. And if they bring out a CC version, it might even be time for my old man to upgrade his stock 22yr old GU Patrol 4.2 CC (yeah the LC has more power, but its not really better at anything else, and worse on road)...
Thank you for making this video. I’ve had a fair amount of doubts myself during the development phase of the car. And I’ve been criticised on CZcams for being outspoken about the risks of a car made by non experienced people and managers who are just living a childish dream due to vulgar levels of wealth. Even ASPW seemed to buy into the BS and the empty promises. I’m glad the reality is slowly emerging and the problems become more and more obvious.
from what I have seen ASWP runs a business he does what it's best for business and future videos
@@AlloffroadAu yes. I respect what he does, although I’m not a fan of him building cars. He’s not an engineer and you can easily tell. Wish he’d stick to story telling, because he’s brilliant at that. Anyway… looking forward to seeing the Grenadier at your channel in the future, as well as many other cars. You are an engineer, at least it seems that way, and that’s why it’s so enjoyable to watch your show.
Great video! Agree with everything especially the price and ergonomics. In 2008 I was pricing up a new Defender and they were about AU$48k. I would think the base model Grenadier should be about that, especially a new, unknown product. I sat in the driver’s seat at the Grenadier demo and hated the footwell, and B pillar. Windows were far too low too. I think what you said about this vehicle being designed by people who have never designed a car before is spot on. Keep up the good work 💪🏼💪🏼
now way this will be the price of a Defender. The Defender was put together in the 80s and then Land Rover just keeped selling them. Do not let your self be fooled by the fact they have similar looks. The Grenadier is way better from an engineering standpoint.
Another comprehensive review with excellent recommendations. I hope Ineos Grenadier takes them on board. It's reviews such as these that lead to tangible improvements that benefit the customer.
Unfortunately old white men (the people who designed this contraption) don't take suggestions as constructive criticism but just criticism
Ok you Grenadier fans starting on the 9/9 for 3-days is the 4WD and camping show at eastern creek Sydney on display will be the production model going through its paces. As the author of this article pointed out the pedals were offset on a protype to the steering wheel. If someone from Sydney is going to this event can you please note the seating position and report what you found this would be a great help for buyers.
I will be there and having a look at pedal positions, foot rest and a few other things
@@AlloffroadAu You little beauty I wrote a letter to Grenadier after your first article I received a receipt with still no reply.You will be able to sit in it. Look forward to your reply as will many others no doubt.
@@AlloffroadAu Ok its Sunday you have been to the exhibition please what is the verdict on driver position to pedals I know the problem was the position of the exhaust for right hand drivers. talk to me.
Do you think you will get around to answering my questions regarding pedal position. we are all hanging out.
These are important points to keep in mind while purchasing it. I will not baby it when it’s arrive, it will be driven to extremes until something prevails, common sense say drive what it is intent to but with your skills and preparations to what ever it, full passengers, towing and pulling, off road and over-landing. But it’s good looking on road and comfy also.
I have fully loaded it with options with intent to use it. It is very interesting new Off road company car with future cars on the way. For sure the Pick up will definitely in my radar and am selling my current pickup when the Ineos is out. Then I can wait until the new pickup comes in the future while enjoying the Grenadier in the mean time.
Thank you for putting yourself out there with your informed comments and most of them substantiated with available information. I was one of the first to put my cash down for this exciting vehicle development, I have watched all the promotional videos, as well as the constructive criticism (yours being one) and came to the conclusion myself that on release and ordering the vehicle is indeed overpriced and lacks those key points needed for touring. I am sure that most return criticism to yourself is based on perhaps disappointment and that the bubble has burst on the excitement surrounding its release. I have cancelled my order, with great deliberation, but cannot invest so much in a compromised investment that still needs so much more cash and modification to be the vehicle I thought it was going to be. Excellent review, again, thanks.
Yep after the prototype drive, some of your points were the deal breaker for me. Got my reservation deposit back and bought a 79.
Later after seeing the price i would have paid, I'm still ahead.
i think grenadier has missed the ultimate 4x4 that they were seeking
The porche 911 has always had an unusual offset pedal position but that hasnt hurt its popularity
I feel that Ratcliffe was less interested in building a dedicated, capable 4WD than he was in fanboi-ing over the Defender. There is a reason that the Defender largely disappeared from the Aussie and African markets, and it was again because a British manufacturer failed to consult properly with Aussie and South African operators about what they needed in their vehicles. Auxiliary fuel and water really is basic stuff.
The centre instrument console really bugs me in particular. That's where a lot of operators will want to mount their navigation system. The interior really should be provided with a void space and ideally some mounting points and prewiring for a UHF and antenna, plus navigation from the getgo. I do like the overhead panel option for adding in your own controls though, I can see it being a tidy and useful setup for things not frequently needed (i.e. controlling solar, water heaters, compressor etc.)
But yep, it's meant to be built for off road expeditions, so guranteed parts and service support in the places it is meant to be used (i.e., somewhere you can't get trip a triple macchiato skinny latte on demand within a 5 min walk) is what really gives me red flags. I'm not even a serious off roader by any stretch of the imagination (a dirt track to the beach or local forest is the limit for me right now) but even in my very unexpert and inexperienced view, I see more nostalgia for the defender than a real Landcruiser competitor.
The Defender was simply outdated and reliance on civil and mitary sales evaporated with the advent of road side bombs etc. The new Defender whilst targeting a different market appears to be a capable offroader or tourer. Interestingly talking to some D4 owners in the Sandy Desert they would only change their D4s for an Ineos. I found this a bit weird given it sort of represented a step backwards in terms of tech eg air suspension etc...on my opinion at least.
@@ericjohnson6802 No surprises there, the new Defender is basically an updated Discovery 4 and more complex. As a tourer will not make it here in Australia's harsh desert. I have the original defender and will never give it up, but if the Grenadier proves itself to be reliable and dependable then I will buy that and still keep my Defender.
@@MountainGoat69696 really..tell that to the three owners we met..one touring Tassie the others Vic and SA. All three had much praise for the vehicle. We mIntain a Perentie and aside from the diff n engine ..now turboed..just about everything else has been replaced with stronger gear. As a tourer it's terrible...but fun..
@@ericjohnson6802 No worries
Best analysis I have seen so far.
Interesting and informative video. I have driven the prototype 2B for a week in an off-road environment in the UAE (Nov 21) and absolutely loved it. I did have the left hand drive version and did not notice any discomfort in the footwell (but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention). Regarding off-road driving, I did not find that 1st 4L was too fast at all - it kept the vehicle at a nice and constant 2-4 km/h while descending a 2 km long mountain trail - hill descent was not available on the 2B (nor was ABS, traction control, lockers, etc.). The Off-Road park also has an 80 % concrete descent which did require the use of brakes (all 4WD's do at that angle). I did also find the seating position to be great for viewing and was able to traverse trails where usually a spotter is preferred but had such great view I did not need one. Granted, I have not been overlanding in it so unsure how comfortable that would be after a few weeks of driving 6-8 hours a day. Regarding ground clearance, while I did think it looked a bit low, I tried our approach / departure angle obstacle (20, 30 and 40 degree approach angles) and I was impressed. The Grenadier 2B is the only bone stock 5 door vehicle (besides the old defender) that can traverse the 40 without touching on the break-over (break-over is not 40 btw). Regarding handling, I was impressed at how the suspension handled the 2,800 kg weight of the 2B. I ran it into a bumpy curve on a dirt track at 75 km/h and it handled like a dream - even some of my passengers at the time who are also experienced off-roaders were nervous when they saw the terrain on the turn we were going to hit at speed :). They were amazed at how it handled. I will hopefully get the chance to drive the full production version and can't wait.
Thanks for sharing your experience; from everything I have seen, the left-hand drive version does not have the exhaust tunnel, and the footwell resembles a normal footwell (which can not be said for the RHD version).
I saw the prototype in January and sent them the following comments.
“Thanks again for the opportunity to see and ride in the vehicle.
I look forward to drive it.
I have never owned an old Defender but in the last 6 years, I have owned both the last and current generations of Mercedes G wagon, last and current generations of Wrangler Rubicon and both the 110 and 90 new Defenders.
We have a property on a very rocky and mountainous game reserve similar to Samara.
The Grenadier is very impressive.
But, I have several practical suggestions:
-The pedal area is poorly designed on the prototype as if designed by people who don't drive off road.
off-road,,,, you usually wear boots, so the pedals are too close together and the left footrest is way too high and dangerous when bouncing around when it is at the level of the brake pedal.
-Nice to have would be... a sliding rail to move the rear seat back a bit. There is a lot of space in the boot but the back seat is too tight.
- also nice to have would be electric movements of the drivers seat. In steep mountain driving it is good to change the distance to the pedals on the go.
-Tyre options like the Iceland heavy mud terrain tyres should be available. K02 tyres are good but poor in mud and not tough enough for SA mountainous rocky conditions. For example the Rubicon comes with KM 3 tyres which are better.
When will the price of the options be available?
Just FYI at current rates
-defender 110 in UK is R1,199,540 and in SA R 1,248,500
-Grenadier in UK R 982,744 and in SA is R1,395,000
Land Rover has no tax credits in SA either.
Seems to be a mistake in price strategy ....sorry to be direct.”
I still have one on ‘order’ pending a real road test. I hope they have improved things substantially! Especially the pedal box was a bad joke.
I love the blunt honesty, certainly following now👍
It almost seems like this vehicle was built for the U.S. market. Left-hand drive, without the bump out and fancy seats the U.S. market appreciates.
The foot well on a RHD Jeep Grand Cherokee is like that and very uncomfortable on a long drive so a valid comment.
The fuel tank is the biggest miss in my opinion.
I think it’s because they’re primarily designed as a LHD vehicle
@@dpd6401 Absolutely, on the later models the foot operated parking brake really was in a bad position on RHD models but would have been fine in the LHD models.
A great reminder of why I’m subscribed to your channel. Solid valid arguments. Ineos should take notes.
Well said 👍
Much appreciated
A lack of 3rd party options is definitely something to consider seriously. I bought a 6x6 land rover perentie, and now Im trying to add extra fuel tank, upgrade the brakes for better performance etc - cannot really buy anything off the shelf, so it is much harder to research and costs go through the roof.
Good video, thanks
Really good assessment. Good to see the PR hype bubble being popped.
I fully concur with your commentary and btw this is a great discussion.
The concept is fantastic and I actually like the car a lot but for me, I will wait for a couple of iterations to see how everything performs.
Having a BMW engine is great and I know they are very reliable but a concern for AU as everything german costs a fortune to repair/replace.
Pricing is also a massive issue, as I priced one with my requirements and came to $118k before stamp duty and LCT, I think is way to high.
So at this stage I will be watching with anticipation to see how everything evolves in terms of price and specs.
Cheers
Apparently they avoid lct which is interesting. agricultural rating. i,m going to a drive day tomorrow so will vheck that out
Can’t comment about the right hand drive seating position but for the rest of the world with the left side drivers position the Recaro seats are by far the most comfortable seats I’ve ever been in in a 4x4.
Of course the commenter has not driven the final version so this whole review is conjecture…
the commenter sat in the final version according to Ineos with only some possible minor changes under the bonnet so I have a fairly good idea
$85K in the USA . Gas mileage and service key to my thoughts on the INEOS G. Fact is, it’s not overpriced from my perspective. Especially in the USA. Vehicles are used for the same purposes here, but in reality it’s a fantastic option vis a vie the G-wagon or current Defender. In 2001 the original US spec car was $72.5K. Not a gray market model from Europa @ $135K. I don’t want a mall parking lot poser / mommy-mobile. No offense Moms .. frankly the new Toyota 300 series, not sold in the USA currently, is probably the best 4x4 on the market worldwide. Cult status, and bulletproof for resale and reliability. JMO ..
Very thorough review and I agree with your points, therefore its not the best off roader after all!
I had high hopes when I heard about the project sadly it has to many compromises
100% agree.....they have designed an off road vehicle without addressing the basics for going off road. They needed to talk to off road companies and enthusiasts to get to the core ingredients of what makes an off road vehicle excel in all areas!
Best review I have seen yet, agree with all your critique. I would never buy just because of not having the dashboard in front of the driver, I mean who think it's OK to place this in the center? no doubt you know what you are talking about. Thank you!
wow I thought the only shortcoming was the BMW engine. This was very informative
And some people say the BMW engine is a strength hahaha
Thankyou for your thorough review.
Your priority list at the start are FAR more important than a mere three priorities, one of which is practically irrelevant - ie: looks.
As you highlighted, of critical importance is footwell space in ANY vehicle - especially for long drives (anything over an hour! - which isn't long!)
As a civil engineer and 'been there dun that' type in off roading (well before even engel fridges!) - a work vehicle for construction and mine sites where the driver does not have sufficient footroom for a driver when wearing workboots, or gumboots will not get past their doors -- thus a huge market potential has been lost.
Similarly is legroom - a major failure in all traditional LR body shapes. People aren't getting smaller (I certainly am not!) so if the Grenadier does not have legroom where somebody of say 1.9m height can stretch legs and move feet around (1.95 preferably to cater for construction types with boots), then rejection will be commonplace as it was in the old landrover - and similar attention to the rear seating.
Clearly the only way to remedy this issue is a longer wheel base by say 30 or 40cm - which would solve other design flaws you identified.
Then we get onto the drivetrain - oh so much to say, but quickly: As you highlight, lockers and axles need be utterly reliable and OVER engineered ... all the way to and through the transmission of course.
It seems to me that the designers have had no experience in other slippery conditions on a wet english farm - thus acceptance will be to that market. Meanwhile, Toyota will continue to deservedly dominate.
Peter Cunningham Bowral NSW
I have driven the Grenadier three weeks ago off-road and a short bit of tarmac. Believe me, that is a very strong, solid and capable car. Very good in crawl ratio, no Death Wobble, seating position perfect. I know Toyota´s HZJ by driving myself, driving a Defender 90 vor 25 years every day about 460.000 km although and often in heavy terrain. What my Defender can do off-road, i think the Grenadier can that also. I am astonished about the effortlessness the car on the Bridgestones managed the course (my Defender on MT´s even so). And i am convinced, that the Grenadier can do many things much better than my Defender (like towing heavy trailers). Many tasks my Defender can do without problems off-road, can't do the HZJ with the same lightness. But the Toyota is much better on tarmac and for driving long distance on and off road on light terrain.
That is a question of weight, of tires, 4 wheel technic and many more things. The Grenadier is in my opinion, which is based on my self driving experience, a very very good compromise of the other off-road cars. So, it is time for you to revise your opinion to the Grenadier. in some details. That is my opinion.
thanks for your opinion it stil does not address the shortcomings like RHS driving position, limited fuel range, low hanging gear. But I will be happy to update and if required revise my opinion after I get my hand on one and can see how it performs. You would hope it has no death wobble if it’s new my fear is that it’s quite susceptible to it like a Jeep as it’s pretty much same front end set up.
Great video and review. I've never thought of it as a tourer in Australia. You touched on my reason that it wouldn't make a good tourer, that being spares and service. As you have previously found out with your 110 Landrover. This vehicle will be an even lower production and ownership, so outback mechanics would rarely see one and wouldn't be keen to work on it. For remote touring in Australia you have to go with Toyota for genuine and after market parts and service, followed closely by Nissan. The best prepared vehicle will still have some kind of problem when touring. The last thing anyone wants is to have a lengthy wait for parts, or an expensive recovery and transport many thousands of kilometers to a service agent. Great review as always.
agree mate and one reason why I switched from the "better looking" Defender to the more reliable and serviceable Landcruiser and after over 3 years touring in the Landcruiser I can say it was 100% the right decision (as much as I liked many aspects of the Defender).
@@AlloffroadAu yes, that's why we have stayed with the older landcruisers. Just got to look at what the number one vehicle is on farms and stations.
yep in remote communities every other 4wd we have seen was a 80 or 100 series not to mention pretty much every farmer has at least one 70 series somewhere on the farm.
@@AlloffroadAu we were 120km southeast of Carnarvon WA when we had a wheel bearing go without warning in the old 80series. It damaged the spindle. We limped it back to Carnarvon, went into Repco and they had all the parts in stock. I fixed it in the carpark out the front on Repco. We had waited 3 day's for the same parts in western Sydney after smashing a CV and damaging the spindle before we left on the trip. I doubt we would of got parts for any other model without waiting.
@@waynelemmon3007 I guess that many spare parts would have to be ordered if possible before touring, which would significantly increase the cost of initial cost of ownership, possibly delaying some of the nessasary modifications, delaying a persons touring schedule.
I'm based in the US and I'm very excited about the Grenadier. However, for about US$90k you get much better options. A Toyota 4Runner has similar capabilities and costs US$45k with proven reliability. There are other options out there in that US$50k price range and they can easily be modified to whatever the intended use is and they are still cheaper than the grenadier. I'm afraid the Grenadier will become another luxury SUV for rich people who never really use it for off road or overland. It's still the most exciting 4x4 that was released in the last ten years including the Ford Bronco.
yep 👍 totally agree
I’m in total agreement about the RHD seating position issue while I also, from experience, do not like the very exposed steering damper. I like the Grenadier a lot but will wait to see how things develope going forward with real exposure and reviews.
First class breakdown on Grenadier potential limitations. I agree with your statements regarding it not being ready for Australia. I really wonder if the limitations will so limit the long-term sales and sustainability especially looking at the premium pricing that make the Landcruiser a more sensible choice.
I want to thank you for your thoughtful comprehensive review. I am near 100% pulling my deposit after the price configurator just got released here in America. Weighing the limitations you've outlined (which I am willing to compromise somewhat) against the inflated price point, it is becoming a risky buy given other 4WD we have got here in America.
Thanks for your honest opinion based on your knowledge. Highly appreciated.
- With your view in mind, in this video, you showed me why I (on a limited budget) didn’t wait for the Grenadier but bought a Jimny.
That said, IF I was one of the guys WITH the money, I still think I would go for the Grenadier. Because for the ones with that amount of cash cash isn’t a problem.
From my point of view, your most interesting point is the locker/-s. Grenadier went for an electrical one, seriously…!!??? Not mentioning the winch option nor the LHD seating position with the weird footwell as my view would ban me from CZcams…
Regarding 3rd party accessory suppliers … Give the manufacturers a chance. Look at the Gen4 Jimny. It was released in 2018. Today the marked is flooded with extras for it. I expect the same for the Grenadier in a few years time, ie be patient. 😉
1982 v8 landrover cost $12,000 and is still going great. you just need the basics. however the left foot is cramped by the transmission tunel..you would think this would be fixed in a new car. the next one i buy will probaly be a toyota troop carrier.
Thanks for the thoughtful review. I was very enthusiastic about the grenadier but they should have done better than a Geländewagen developed 50 years ago.
Totally agree
great review....would be interesting to do a direct comparison to a stock Toyota Prado and how both can be modified / costs etc, not talking hard core rock climbing but 95% of what people use their 4x4 for in Australia, think you may be surprised which wins !!
I don't off road, do any of what so many do in upgrading etc..Stock is how it is, for good reason, but for those who do this, I have respect, and have seen amazing results by weekenders that made companies that have made off road vehicles become monsters of capability. The one word that concerned me from Sir Jim....Looks !...To claim the Grenadier will be the ultimate, but see this many areas of genuine engineering issues must be an eye opener. I see advertised capable vehicles becoming mall crawlers, where Looks fit right in. The cost of this vehicle alone puts it way up there, but it is untested by the flocks they want to purchase it. I love and view channels detailing how cars are made, modified, and forgotten because they can be modified, or don't measure up...Toyota has kept the same design, like the original LR, tanks for a reason....they work. Never going to own a Grenadier, but as one person who made a comment here...wait 5 years..After seeing this in depth review, I'd be very concerned that Looks are far from function for that kind of money, or usage in the lands that tame off road vehicles.
Very pertinent points! Very well informed and the vehicle is in deed Eurocentric. Now it no longer looks like it was meant to be a vehicle for you, hard core off roaders. I hope they will listen to you, Andrew and the bunch that actually know your stuff. Thank you for the video and also, if you have not already, share please the road you took to fix the death wobble on you Jeep through a video. I am not a off roader, even though I own two 4wd vehicles that I enjoy very much, I m looking at getting a vehicle that could run through most of the Stuff Europe has to throw at me... I am currently looking at the Gladiator and the Grenadier was also in the back of my mind, reliability is important to me, more than performance as I stick with the EU for now :-) Best wishes to you and I love the way you addressed the hole video, very considerate and intelligent! Respect!
Interesting and thought provoking. Stefan, What a lot of work it must be to put these videos together, not only the production with all the clips inserted into your videos but the time taken to research everything. Amazing work. Do you do this all yourself? On the Grenadier, No its not the perfect 4WD. Like any motor manufacturers they engage marketing companies to sell the vehicle. Most of the people marketing these things probably never have driven on a gravel road, if they have a drivers license at all as they invariably would live in cities. So the hype can be disregarded largely. As you say, in Low range it can go really fast down a hill. That must be good! But what do we mean when we want a 4WD? I have been in the 4wd scene in Australia for 25 years in 4wd clubs and I can not see a bright future for 4WDing. Young people are abandoning clubs as we in clubs try and encourage responsible use of 4wds , the authorities are closing access everywhere. The kind of shots of rock crawling you showed in the clip are being looked at disapprovingly from the conservation groups and forest rangers. As more people go offroad more regulations are being drawn up. 35 inch tyres and bigger make tracks that were passable in a normal family 4wds impossible as they cut them up, digging large ruts. I have first hand experience of this with rangers we work with on adopt a track using their standard vehicles and not being able to get through. Their reaction is to close the track. Then people come along and cut locks, further reaction to this is , install cameras and fine people. So do we need massive lifted and large tyred 4wds anymore? Pretty soon no as there will be few places apart from pay to play 4wd parks that you will be able to use them. For outback touring, lifts and large tyres are not needed. Therefore the Grenadier is probably a player in this segment of the market. I also think looks is a way more important factor than it seems. If we were all just rational we would draw up spread sheets and compare features, capabilities and pricing and end up with a Pajero on top of the list. People buy on gut feeling and looks is very important. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i do like the look of the Grenadier. (But some people think a Citreon 2cv is beautiful as well ) Older 4wds are very capable and simple so many will keep them going while they can afford to run them. The problem is that they are getting tired and needy, (especially my Land Rovers unfortunately) and unless you have a very good mechanic or have the time, workshop and skills to DIY many people will upgrade sooner or later. Its all a compromise.
If it is affordable and reliable and last a long long time and doesn't break down. People will love it
yes would agree if that was the case it would be another of many options and certainly would appeal to quite a few people
Thank you sir!
Price point is going to be the main factor for real world off roaders.
A farmer in the uk is no where near a person needing a dependable, fixable on the go , rugged and reliable vehicle for transport and living.
yes I cant see many engineering limitations as a farm truck (beside price and reliability, parts availability etc) as a proper off road 4wd it has many shortcomings for a supposedly purpose build 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I still see them coming out with an offroader, that will fulfill all your needs as well as those of the people living in organic lands.
Once they have established for a few years to cover initial costs, they will come out with affordable and dependable variants...as you mentioned !
Its all about moneys trickling down .
I really hope so, but they will need to consult actually off-roaders, the team they have now has only a very rudimental clue about actual 4w driving
Nice to see some critical evaluation of this new car. As Suzuki fanboy myself I am not into overlanding but some serious off roading...everybody has special needs and I think not one unmodified vehicle off them dealerships can deliver. You will have to make it your own. happy trails!
100 percent, so modifiability is very important and the Grenadier has not many options there in the way it's layed out at least in regards to fuel tanks etc..
Great video mate. I definitely agree with you with regard to the space for your feet. It looks to me that it was designed for the LHD market. I went from a Y61 patrol to a new Jeep Commander and it’s foot well was cramped compared to the Patrol & horrible over the long distance. Even my 76 series is cramped but I’d say better compared to the Ineos.
Totally agree
Thank you Stefan for an in-depth analysis, I am not sure if it will be able to safely negotiate the sand dunes in the Middle East due to it only it’s weight, break over angle but mainly it’s front & rear end ground clearances. Middle East is a big market for SUV’S and the terrain is mostly soft sand, I wonder if it will be able to compete with the likes of LC, Jeep Wrangler, Nissan Patrols that have rules the roost and New Bronco that seems equally capable. Let’s wait & watch how the production version comes out & then we will be in a better position to pass a verdict.
I think stock it can not compete, lets see how easy it is to put 35" underneath and if the other components are up for it. I will when I get my hand on a final car.
Excellent comments, very educational, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
New to the channel, loved the video, German precision 👌.
I sat in the prototype today, loved it, but after the video, reconsidering if I should put down a deposit. I’ll wait till the first ones are delivered, which should be soon.
thank you, keep me posted keen to hear from people who actually have and use the Grenadier
five years ago in a pub in London....that's the beginning of the Grenadier.
yea I fear most Grenadiers will not leave the surrounding of pub's to much and most will be driven in bigger cities as a status symbol
I guess it depends on your needs, when i priced one up, it was quite competitive with a LC and surpassed it in load carrying and towing. The foot well business I didn't know about. That is a major failing in my books. The fact that it comes with a BMW diesel and transmission is the best option for a European maker, but not so sure compared to Japanese/Thailand made vehicles.
I’d say it’s better then Nissans modern diesels and just below a Mitsubishi
@@Owhunter-ki3fn I'm sure their engineering is superior, but if it breaks what will it cost to fix and will the guy with the spanner at dingo piss creek know how to do the job?
100% review with logic! Bravo
And people cried about the new defender...when I look at this price right here, I'm pretty happy that I've ordered the new defender instead of this....thanks for the video!
Fair enough!
What an excellent breakdown!
thank you
Hi, Stefan, a thoroughly detailed review. Although I ordered one, I share some of these consturctive opinions. However, it might not suit everyone's purpose as long as they are not the deal-breaker for you. It is a medium-size 4wd, and doesn't have the capacity of Landcruiser, and Patrols. I hope the LWB dual-cab ute will be better for Overlanding 4WD with LRT, and I am happy with a 33" AT for the general touring purpose.
Hi Gary, yes I agree 33" for touring will do in most cases, Grenadier sits very low but keen to see how it looks once someone fully loads it up to GVM. I'm also keen to see the longer Dual Cab Ute maybe they incorporate some changes and also have a bigger fuel tank.
For touring you'll go about 20% further on fuel with 30 - 31 inch tyres.
@@Malc664 I will try to keep the stock tyres than rash to the lift and upsize the tyres. I would be less adventurous than driving an FJ for sure.
Your criteria list is way better. I must admit that I really like the G but I did see a few things that made me think that waiting was the best way to go.
Of course price matters too and once you get the mid range two seater optioned up with just the basics, you’re already in the LC300 GXL pricing territory and at that rate, I’ll just hang onto my LC200 for a bit longer and wait for the 300.
Wow! This sets the bar for car reviews from an off-Roaders perspective! Thanks for such a detailed review. I’m wondering if you have a perspective of wheel articulation of the Ineos? As solid as the 70 series is they seem to lift a lot of wheels due to a lack of flex. I’m wondering if Ineos has thought of this
I was also not to impresses how it flexes so far it sure does not look like a long travel suspension but I also have not see the Grenadier do any proper technical driving or technical obstacles where you could properly evaluate flex.
This not a review but a preview of one's opinion. Since said creator has not driven the final product but has created his opinion based on limited facts derived from the web and test ride of a early prototype. Once he has driven the final product and 3rd party manufactures have provided opitions based upon his requirements, can one give a full review. The other point that i would like to point out is price and value are often conflate. One can buy a 70 series for a lower price but the buyer may receive less value for their purchase. But value is subjective. What I may view as value might be different than you. So one is willing to pay more for the value they believe they are receiving.
@@peopleschamp7258 do you think the opinion presented in the preview is incorrect? Let me guess, you’ve ordered a grenadier?
@@ntdawg I am a stickler for reality. I have no problem with giving a opinion but I give opi ions based upon all facts. For example, in the video, he discussed the death wobble. Did he state the video is from a prototype? Has it been it confirm that their is a death wobble? Does the current iteration have the death wobble? Finally, yes I do have a order for one. I will have a different use than the reviewer. I also dont rely on individuals like him to make my decisions in life. I form my opinions based upon personal experience. Currently I have no opinion on the Grenadier until I drive one at end of 2022. If you would like me to provide you a REVIEW once I am done let me know.
@@peopleschamp7258 please give us an update when you take delivery. As well as death wobble I’m interested to know what the pedal and foot rest positions are in the production version how easy it is to put bigger tyres on and how the wheels articulate over moguls
You're series of videos on the Grenadier have been unbiased, analytical, knowledgeable and consistent while avoiding the trap of new vehicle hype.
History has proven there are often problems with first model runs of a completely new vehicle, no matter how good. It's the reason why I would never buy the first model of a completely new vehicle from ANY manufacturer.
No doubt, Ineos with iron out these problems and shortcomings in successive models.
thank you and lets hope V2 will sort some of the issues
All information in the video based on the prototype.....
We have the production vehicle here and are simply enthusiastic about the vehicle. Definitely the best basis for a modern off-road vehicle.
Yea you have different requirements and fewer options in Europe, for Australia as it stands now, there are better options
@@AlloffroadAu What are the better options? How can you know if you haven't driven the production vehicle?
I have built 4wd’s for the past 12 years. Have owned twelve 4wd in that time, I work as a 4wd driver trainer and assessor and have dealt with every 4wd available in Australia and then some. I usually 4wd technically weekly, I 4wd tour several months a year, often in very remote areas, trackless and without external support.. I would be pretty bad at what I’m doing if I could not assess the suitability or shortcoming of a vehicle I have seen several times and driven as a passenger in, not to mention there are also tons of information and video footage available of the Grenadier I studied. It does not need to be a rocket scientist to recognise all the things I mention in my videos. I’m not saying it’s a bad utility vehicle (reliability is one thing I can not assess) but for RHD people, in particular, it’s not a well-designed 4wd and that is just from an ergonomic factor. I drive several times a year 2000-4000km just to the start of my trip I can tell you the footwell space is a big issue for taller people on long drives.
All the other issues I mention in my video are also pretty obvious, like messy and shallow underbody, little ground clearance, very little suspension travel for a solid axle vehicle, low-hanging steering dampers, no room for additional fuel tanks, low sitting batteries under the seat, no central instrument cluster, not fully folding rear seat and the list goes on.
All things which should have been addressed for a from ground up purpose build 4wd.
We have plenty of better options in Australia ( you probably not so many in Europe) for instance, a rebuilt 105 or 100 Series Toyota, a 70 Series Toyota, a rebuilt GQ Patrol 4.2, a new Patrol Y62, A G Class, Landcruiser 200 or 300 Series. Several utes like a Hilux, Raptor, and a Jeep Gladiator to name a few. Of course, all have pros and cons and need some modifications, but they have proven reliability or even unreliability; they have all modifications available and are based on proven platforms where you know all pros and cons and know all workarounds. And none of these cars is advertised as a purpose build from ground-up developed 4wd. In most cases, they will be, even with modifications, cheaper than a specked-up Grenadier.
@@AlloffroadAu I really don't understand it.... The ground clearance of the Ineos is more than that of the G-Class... The radiator at the front was raised to achieve an angle of departure that only a few vehicles have... The payload is higher than with a G class...
Didn't you realize that over 400 G-Classes were recalled last year because the rear axle broke?
The relatively short wheelbase of the Ineos easily makes it a better off-roader than the Gladiator.
The only point where I agree with you is the problem with the size of the tank... but again, where should the volume be taken from when the manufacturer is obliged to install the AdBlue nonsense?
Even when designing the rear seats, the manufacturer has to meet thousands of requirements, such as the specifications for occupant protection and the mandatory points for child seats.
More ground clearance means a higher center of gravity, which in turn makes it extremely difficult for off-roaders to meet the side impact tests... All hurdles that have to be overcome and that are different in every country... In the end, there simply isn't much room left...
G class is not something I compare it against much in OZ, as they are pretty much non-existent here for off-road use. Again you look at figures, not reality the departure angle is greatly hampered by the low-hanging steering damper which is only a matter of time until it's ripped off. The low-hanging fuel tank (and that only a 90l tank) cops hiding, the low-hanging rear trailing arm mounts are not good. There are plenty of examples in Ineose's promo videos where the steering damper makes impact with the easy obstacles because its acts like a catcher for all sorts of things. Keep in mind Grenadier has been designed by a Designer who has never designed a car before, let alone is a 4wdriver and that shows. I know that, especially in Europe, compliance is hard nowadays, and it may do OK in Europe because you don't have other options. Jeep Gladiator would also not be my choice, but the benefit is that you have tons of options available for instance, you can run 37" legally here in OZ (engineered), which negates the longer wheelbase ramp over angle. We will see maybe I will change my mind in two or three years when we see what's available and what workarounds can be found, but as it presents itself now it's not something I can get excited about as my long-range remote tourer as it has well to many compromises and uncertainties, especially for the asking price. Fortunately, at present, we have way better options available here in OZ.
Actually, I don't think the Grenadier was ever intended to be the perfect 4wd. It's not the target market. It's way too heavy, too long, too low and too wide. As you note, this isn't a vehicle that's friendly to modifications, at least not yet. I don't think it was intended to be such a vehicle. Anyone who can afford it is unlikely to heavily modify it or they'd choose a better platform. No one is buying a Grenny (I may trademark that) to go rock crawling. I think the target market positioning for this vehicle is where LR used to be in the late 90's (for US anyway). A decently rugged and capable vehicle, bought by owners who consider a rough gravel road as "offroading" LR is a luxury vehicle now...too expensive to risk a real offroad adventure. In addition, there's WAY too much electronic stuff to break. We all know LR's reputation with wiring and electronics (Lucas quality control is a perfect example of an oxymoron). LR's were very unreliable before they added all the complexity (I've owned two Discos...loved them except for the bad reliability). Yes, it would be great to have a true utilitarian 110 replacement that's simple to mod and repair. But unfortunately, those days are long gone I'm afraid.
Yes, I'm not going to be rushing out to buy one. Thankfully my Y61 CRD Nissan Patrol only has 65,000 odd kilometres on the odo, it's not something that I'm likely going to need to decide on for a little while. Hopefully.
I wrote to the company and ACTIVELY encouraged them to test in Australia. Like you, I got no response, either.
Great review. Proof will be in the pudding when it’s finally delivered to Aussie customers.
Lack Service Centres is definitely a down side in a such large country as ours. Maybe they will increase as popularity with the vehicle increases. Pity Holden don’t take up the servicing as there were loads of them around that have now closed.
I do like that there is another high priced option in the market and will certainly make most people think twice about a LC 300 or even a high spec new defender.
Totally agree
I had one of the first Gen8 Hilux’s when they were released in late 2015. I also had one of the earliest LC300’s on the road back in Dec ‘21. I currently have a new Ram DT variant. In each case it took a while before aftermarket manufacturers could design and release products suitable for what I needed. And in every case each of these brand new models had early teething issues. I probably will end up with a Grenadier at some point too but this time I will wait a) for the aftermarket producers to catch up and b) for Grenadier to iron-out some of the initial and inevitable faults that the first release will undoubtedly have.
remarkably well spoken. your experience really comes through in your analysis.
After watching your informative video, I will only look at the 2nd gen version . The death wobble really got me thinking?
Whilst a good few of your points regarding range/ tire up sizing and suspension upgrades won't be an issue for most " Grey nomad " users-the final package price is getting up there for items that should be standard fitment-the difflocks for example.
Great insights, thou 🤔👍🙂
Thank you for this detailed review and I feel it is aligned with most of my observations of the car. It is a pity that they did miss the target on a number of vital elements.
It would be awesome if they'd offer it as a roller. Maybe they've dropped their ambitions for full customization when they realized the difficulty in getting it certified globally and stuck to one tank, wheel and gear set-up. I get the engine choice was likely strategic in bringing them a ready made distribution network. BMW doesn't have a comparable vehicle so they can scratch each other's backs. It would be bitchin if the provided suspension could receive larger tires at time of release, and you could spec out gears, and or add an optional aux tank. If those boxes were ticked it would go a long way for US sales. Mostly it would be cool if you could get a rolling unit - bare from either the transfer case or the drive shaft up (like all of the kits and rollers you can buy such as the Rally Fighter). It will fail with regular folks here if it's too tricky to add tires and lift, even more than the tank.
Most of the first years production will go to CZcamsrs, prospectors, collectors, people with several vehicles and enough resources they will be in video shoots and garages more than our where we can touch them. Sure some upper middle class folks that fancy themselves global overland travelers who defiantly swear there is no need for more than a 31 will get them for daily drivers so they can put oval stickers and union jacks on them. The whole point of this was to be all mechanical, live axl, all around customizable. Sucks it's gonna be over 100k forgetting that the initial buzz was generated because you could get it new, set how you wanted loaded for 50 to 90 because it would be mechanical and economies of scale with those custom parts in a built unit would be cheaper that short run aftermarket. The number has creeped somewhere, and this is before the inflation this year that's still evening out. Now it's expected 75 minimum before the dealer sharks get you and 100 minimum for what we see in the pictures. Thinking 120, 150 to get it where you want it. Could SAS, lock and swap then fab a camper body on a Ford focus for that.
I had been itching to reserve a slot, I would go into hock for a vehicle like I expected at 60, with a buffer to outfit and dealer trouble, 80 out the door when it's all over, bent over the bench, but I'd be willing, for the dream, exactly what I'd want, and it would last. But the base has risen to my buffer, the hook price to get you started is 75, no way you're under 85 at signing, more like 100 if the dealers aren't going. And I still have to put the bed in the back. Maybe a seatless option. There will eventually be flood damaged ones and such, then we can see about an LS or a solid underpowered 4.0 or the right VQ out of a 6 speed 2nd gen frontier, or the 8 out of an armada/titan (sadly I can't say patrol).
Guess we gotta wait for them to get old and plain looking anyway so we don't look like the jackpot gold mine when we're sleeping under the trees.
Superb commentary from both the user and engineering perspective. The value proposition is indeed questionable in the first version. But as you say much can change in time. Full marks to the INEOS team for getting this far though! Now let's see where they go from here. If they can reclaim the ground Toyota and Nissan stole from Land Rover decades ago, that will be a great accomplishment. Living in Canada but working a lot as an engineer in MENA, I get to experience both extremes: hot and dry plus cold, deep snow and muddy. We have Toyotas in both theatres because of performance and reliability in pretty much all conditions. When INEOS can achieve that at a competitive price point, or deliver something exceptional that justifies a higher price, then we will consider buying one or two for the fleet. For now, we stick with what works. I look forward to your subsequent commentary.
well said
Very good review Stefan, and I agree with everything you pointed out. The footwell design looks like it could be a disaster. The speedo is in a rediculous position in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what people think of driving the vehicle long distance on the bitumen, as it is a long way between places of interest. It might be ok driving around the Lord Muck's farm in England, but it will be interesting to see how it handles Oz.
yep, very different sitting in one for a short test drive real ergonomic issues you will find out after a few hours behind the wheel. A 10k round trip is not unusually in OZ and I dare to say it would be quite uncomfortable
@@AlloffroadAu I doubt they design for eg Aus. It's too small a market to warrant such attention. Realistically few people will ever take their 4wds into places so extreme or if they do they will hopefully do as Stefan has...build a vehicle to suit that purpose...which of course for most folk costs a fortune. Eg we're 30k plus into a
GQ Patrol built for such extreme use.
Extremely well done review after several years experience in the Busches of Africa (construction) and a terrible experience with a South African build Land Rover (turbo charger seized e no chance to have a proper repair done)
Brother just subbed you I'm an Irish man living in San Diego. I am thinking about pulling the trigger on one of these rigs but, to be honest as long as the safari windows don't leak and its reliable I can live with its short comings. ideally id want a base vehicle with diff locks and a 2" lift would be nice as well. This is important when they say you can build your own rig its bullshit......unless you are prepared to wait months. in the US they will peddle these trucks with what ever features and try and upsell you into something that your don't want. I hope INEOS does not water down the platform to make money in the U.S. at the expense of its off road prowess. image is almost more important over her over capability hence the term Mall Crawler. I am however excited about having an option to a jeep or Toyota pick up or new bronco. I hope I'm not disappointed. The exhaust reminds me of a chieftain tank lol
thanks mate, if you buy one please keep me posted keen to hear how you go along the way
While I agree with all of your observations mechanically, the looks are VERY important in this case. They copied the old Defender since LR stupidly abandoned its icon. The owner of Ineos copied it for that reason, PRIMARILY. He wanted to make what LR should have made instead of the over-engineered design that they did. LR even lost its case against Ineos for copying their abandoned design. I hope they work out the shortcomings, and beat LR on principle, for turning their back on a world renowned icon. I think they're doing OK for their first vehicle design, so far. Hopefully your assessments will be heard and addressed!
ineos acquired the right from LR as far as i know
@@kl6cchih No. LR sued Ineos for coppying the look of the original Defender and LOST.
Well it has nothing to do with that stuppid Landrover.
Great thoughtful overview. My issue with the Grenadier has always been just how similar it is to old 4x4s with very little in the way of thoughtful innovation or personality. I’m all for a raw, simplistic, authentic off roader, but I’d rather it did it’s totally own thing, and address more of the shortcomings of older models at the same time
So I like it, I have driven one but it’s 50k dearer than a new jeep rubicon, (NZD) and it’s no better off-road and lacks things like radar cruise and sway bar disconnect.