Intake Manifolds. Single Or Dual Plane, and Why
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2020
- All automotive intake manifolds fall into one of two basic families, Single or Dual plane. Here's a quick overview of each design's characteristics and the basic science behind them.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
I see confusion in the comments already! Ok, both Tunnel Ram and Cross Ram manifolds are Single Plane design. With an "Air Gap" style manifold...they can be either single or dual plane. The gap is about insulating the bottom of the intake against internal heat from an engine. All Big Block Chrysler intake's, as well as some Pontiac and Buick engines are air gap style from the factory.
Offy Dual Ports are dual plane manifolds with the runners split in half their entire length.
Keep at it Boss.. Oi oi oi..
Look folks use your Google and look at image's.. stop bitching.
and it makes little sense when they put an exhaust crossover in the air insulated ones. but hey the carbs dont freeze up on cold starts
Do any pass the "mustache test"....it states "the whiskers should fit neatly and squarely in each intake port"
@@johnpossum556 LMAO, I needed a flashback and a laugh today!^___^ THNX!
I was kinda think'n about the old cross ram's on the 413. I assume they make tons of low end.
The “Arm broom” best used on work benches to clear crap outta the way 😂🤣
ALPHA MAN 😎👋
Reminds me of First Blood, Rambo putting down rifles on a table to load. Here, Tony is putting down intakes. Well, only one.
That method was outlawed by OSHA back in the mid 1980's.
I put everthing away carfully so I remember what I did with things for next time ...than i forget where I put the shit and walk around in circles
bodywork is fun as long as someone else does it!
or if you are a masochist
My son is this way. Lol
I love how you clean your table
I've done hours and hours worth of reading about intake manifold theory lately, this is by far the best explanation I've heard in regards to the effects of runner length. Well done Uncle T !! And yes, body work is a tedious fuckin nightmare for me too.
I’ve got a mechanical engineering degree, I wish uncle Tony was my fluid dynamics professor, instead of deriving equations we could have been learning how things actually work.
that's an unhealthy mindset. learn both because you can get value from both sides. i have a physics degree but love working on practical problems with my hands.
This is dead on INFORMATION... Love it... And after all of my messing with Tunnel Rams seem to fall in between the two.. it's just a single plane with more plenum volume and longer runners compared to a reg singleplane Intake... They make more torque in the mid range and carry it out further....
Good Stuff
Andy
Yes! That exactly how to describe a tunnel ram. It’s only because of their intended application that they all tend to have big runner cross sections and work at high rpm. If there was a tunnel ram design with skinnier runners and a short plenum people would marvel at the low RPM performance..... but why do that and have hood clearance problems when other designs would accomplish the same thing.....,
@@johnwilburn Tunnel Rams are the predecessor to the production intakes of today... Tony was dead on.. about the 5.0 Intakes that came out in '86 it made the 302 have the down low torque of a Carbed 351! Which is why they ran so good for what they were....
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Absolutely. Just look at the intake on my Honda CR-V. Enormous plenum and long runners. It’s repacked to fit under the hood and has a variable plenum volume thanks to this vacuum thing inside it, but yeah, it’s relation to a tunnel ram style is undeniable.
Sometimes you hit the sweet spot with bore/stroke, valve size, cam, runner length etc. Being able to position an injector closer to the valve frees up some runner possibilities though.
@@johnwilburn with injection they can flow air rather than mixture which allows them to use longer runners. One of Tony's points. Makes a big difference in smaller displacement engines
I've just put on a single-plane (instead of a dual-plane) on my daily fully (IMPCO) propane fuelled ('69) 383CI (custom built) Dodge A108! It works WAY better on all rpm ranges now, because propane doesn't need atomization like gasoline does. It's instant vapourized with O² into da plenum!
Just a small tip, from a wicked Dutch MoPar dude!
... go on....
Propane tank only weighs 494 lbs.
Interestingly, bone stock 2 bl 318s in 71-2 had a low rise, single plane intake that worked very well. An anomaly for production V8s. But Mopars seem to respond well to small single planes, like the old Holley Street Dominator, and the Torker 383. And you can find em cheap at swap meets, $100 or less. Ya wont get a Performer RPM for that! Or an M-1.
This is getting good.
almost every day when I get home from work ,UTG posted a vid like an hour before for my viewing pleasure.
0:51 Bench clearing action.
I would like to give a round of applause to Uncle Cathy! That is a woman with a sense of humor... She supports her husband's desire to be in the shop, is an active participant, handles paperwork and does video. Beside every great man stands an excellent woman. I tip my hat to you for being a great lady!
A shame you didn’t have a cross ram intake available to explain the “pulse” better. The 413 sonoramic commando was a hell of a motor
A 413 Max Wedge was a better one!
Donell Muniz is the the one with the giant intake runners ? Four barrel on each fender well, crazy.
This makes complete sense. Thanks for another great explanation!
I thought it was explained very well myself! The plenum in my cerebellum with a parabellum- my head exploded^___^
Keep at that bodywork UT I'm goin' on 7yrs with mine(it wasn't even wrecked) plus bumper fillers(ready)^___^ THNX!
Excellent video. The best explanation I have seen yet! I answered so of my questions why a Predator carb likes open plenumam a body man by trade. Started at 16, am 58 now. Patience is a virtue, doing bodywork in a restoration test that virtue. Hang in there.
Thank you so much for your videos it is a breath of fresh air so different, so much more information, so much more entertaining, I appreciate you not too many people take the time to explain such subtle nuances in engine building performance thank you again
Excellent explanation!! The last part about plenum volume was key. I'm awaiting a Victor 340 for my 360 (running a 1" spacer), and this video reassured I made the right choice for my application. Thanks Uncle!
Proof you need to be brutally honest with the real use of a proposed engine, or modification.
Back in the 1980's when Opel was still owned by GM they made dualram intake manifolds. Best of both worlds. The switchover from long to short runnerlenght was done automatically (by manifold vaccume? Electric? I forgot)
It worked!
Uncle Tony! I LOVE this intake stuff! It's a great subject for an engine power bed-time story! I'm sure if you had more time you'd tell the part about a how a dual-plane intake separates those bad sequential intake pulses on adjacent cylinder firings, like the mean old 5-7 firing order you talked about near the end! That's neat how the bad, bad #5 cylinder scavenges from one plane of the intake, but then the evil #7 has to take its breathe from the other plane! Those two cylinders get mad because they're prevented from robbing the intake column from the same area of the plenum in a dual plane! That's GREAT!
I put a Weiand mid-rise aluminum intake on my 1970 440 topped with a Holley 650 double pumper and that motor screamed but, it did move the power curve up in the rpm range a little bit. I mainly used it because it cleared the closed hood on my totally rebuilt and hot rodded ex-State Police Furry III. (Not by much) It was a good choice because using the Chrysler Purple Shaft cam, which also moved the power curve into higher rpm, still was able to work well with the Police Package highway rear gears. A higher stall torque converter would have been better but, this was a road vehicle and not a drag car. I pegged the 140 MPH certified speedo more than once back in my college days. It still was able to demolish the left side (driver's) motor mounts which I had to replace many, many times before I added a chain to the frame back-up to save my fan shrouds which were always destroyed when the mount let go.
That’s the best explanation of a dual plane versus single plane intake manifold I’ve ever seen very good
Fantastic explanation of an issue I have been wondering about. Especially the cyl. 5 and 7...i got it completely.
So i think i got it now! Long arm across short table at high velocity = massive torque, efficiency and best use of energy, which leads to Maximum Mopar CZcams Satisfaction! Thanks for the awesome lessons UT keep em flowing!
THAT WAS THE BEST WAY i HAVE EVER HEARD ANYONE EXPLAIN THIS THANK YOU.
Listen to your Uncle Tony! I've learned to watch the comments too. You usually answer the questions before I ask. Or you make another video! Much love from Merida!
I'm educated in your subject matter and I must say I enjoy listening to your videos. keep up the good work mate!
Thanks for the lesson Uncle Tony. Lots of great information here. Comments have to remember this is a cliffnotes not a dissertation.
Grateful. Thank you! I do both mechanic work and body work on a daily basis! I salute you as well, Uncle Tony.
Tony, you're explaining it perfectly.
Terrific series Tony...keep up the great work!
The best explanation that you can find on CZcams
Table clean off js getting you back close to throwing stuff again!
Great tutorial unc.
awesome info man! I feel I know a lot of the info, but you helped put all the missing parts together that I could not quite figure out. Thank you for this detailed video!!
100% 💯% correct Tony and the statement of the prep is 99% of a show car paint job and it is so true and as solid of a fact as your going to get ever!
Tony’s humor and tech never disappoint.
intake tuning for a single cylinder is straightforward.
Getting that idea onto an 8 and under a hood is a struggle.
usually one cylinder or another suffers to match power.
your explanation is good.
Dual plane manifolds are great for street rods, especially off the light, as per Uncle Tony's comment about @6:10 about 5.0L Mustangs. The RPM range is lower, but 3-4k RPM is crazy torque with a dual plane. I think a dual plane setup could also work on road courses or just twisty roads, for pulling out of corners after braking, but not on straight away sections vs a single plane.
A gallon of Rust-O-Leum in your favorite flavor, and a roller is good enough for that beater.
Why a roller? It sprays beautifully out of a gun mixed 50/50 with acetone. Not to mention the obvious but you get twice the product to paint another car
The roller for texture 🤣
I've actually done that. A nice black and white 2 tone on my 70 F-100. With foam brushes. Straight outa the can, no thinner. No runs, no drips, no errors, and only one coat needed.
@@disfunctionalmorons1324 With a thinner, ya get runs. And ya might need 2 coats. I used it straight from the can, with foam brushes. Smoothed out pretty good!
I sprayed mine Rustolem satin black, harbor freight $15 spray gun
Brother you got this don't quit while your ahead keep sanding and working it
One "formula" I've learned regarding intakes, the more displacement an engine, the less advantage a dual plane offers. A 455 Pontiac makes equal low end power with a single plane Torker II.
Good to know!
👍🔔
I tend to find that people picture the intake charge in each runner like a ball rolling down a pipe.
Actually the pressure wave is like a slinky toy (spring thing) pulsing back and forth inside the pipe. Timing the bounce and rebound to the rpm to the valve opening is the magic.
Some dual planes like the 289 GT350 and Edelbrock F4B had the corner cylinders long, and the middle 4 cylinders real short...maybe 2.5 inches.
Making half high rpm and half lower rpm for a flatter though lower torque curve.
Thanks. 👍👍😎
This is great information.. Thanks Tony
I totally understand your explanation , but I have been into engines for a lifetime, and can't stop myself from learning how things work! I have a 385 stroker I built with a single plane, but been thinking about either dividing it, or swapping to a large dual plane, to gain a bit of low end TQ. Something like a Dart dual plane, something that will fit the larger 220cc runners, good day uncle 'T' !!!..😷
NOW, That's how ya clean a work table/bench!!! Great video & content! Am I getting this right?🤣🤣🤣
And while you confused yourself, I finally had my “bingo” moment on spacers. Always wondered what spacers were all about..... Now, I need to figure out how to know when I need one. Thx, UT.
That was actually pretty well explained. Thanks.
Yeah if you already know what he's trying to say, but a newbie will be lost forever with that explanation!
I think a whiteboard with some scribbling would have helped me understand it better, I think I got it though. I'll watch it again to make sure I understand it. I was thinking about this the other day actually. I was thinking about putting a Dual Plane intake on my project someday but didn't know if it would serve the purpose I want it to serve for the build. Thanks Uncle Tony!
Thanks Tony, I used to work at a bodyshop, very underrated, its a job that you'll put 220 percent in, and the customer will still complain 9/10
Brilliant keep the vids rolling man very simple 👌
Great explanation, thanks uncle Tony!!
When I was 16 I swapped intakes on the cars I owned to see what was quicker,single,duel and stock! But these were stock,once I started having cams/heads done,I left what the builder said was the best aka my buddy,his Dad was a drag racer and engine builder and it took years but passed his knowledge to his son(my buddy) damn it took awhile though! Doesnt take long to swap intakes,a few of them after 1 pass I swapped the intakes back.
Awesome explanation, I never realized that a dual plane intake has longer runners. Wow, I mean I knew that single plane intakes are for higher rpm, but I never new why.
Good video Tony. I liked it and it brought me back to a street car I had many moons ago. a 1964 Ford Fairlane, (a Gorgeous looking blue 2 door) originally a stick six that I changed to q 302 V , C4 auto from a 68 Fairlane. Like you spoke about your Mustang, "The torque that thing made was great!" I curved my distributor, ran one range hotter spark plugs & premimum gas. (Good or bad I don't know but it ran Strong!) my car a non posi 8" rear end w/ a 3.50 gear and I surprised (and got past) a lot f cars I shouldn't have! Keep up with the videos, I always look for them!
Back in the late 90's I had tested about every intake short of a tunnel ram on a hot 350 with a 4 speed, always went back to an early 70's Eddy tm-1..And still on it to this day
TM-6 (precursor to the Torker 383) is still a great 383/400 intake; TM-7 or "Tarantula" is still great on a 413-426W-440. Old stuff doesn't always suck.
This is a theory I hope you comment in your knowledge and experience. As I've learned it, you can compare the runners both in and out with organpipes in a church. They are tuned in length to a specific frequenze (tone) and will actually give tree tones; the full sinus tone as the length of the pipe, the one you will hear. Then there is a halfsinus tone one octave up (twice the frequenze) and then one down (half the frequenze) that you can't hear more than as a wider sound. So, a ramchargeintake or headers will work the same way. Tuned to the specific frequenze as for example 4k rpm they have full sinus length. This is very effective in a narrow range around that frequenze. Halfsinus don't give as much boost, but will operate in a wider range. To make an efficient engine you prefer half or quarterwavelength that will give less boost but operates in the most of the rpm's that normally used. The exhaust operates in a similar way, but with longer runners due to the gastemperature.
for the #5 #6 sequential firing engines there is a cam shaft that swaps the firing order to spread out the pulses for a more even burn
I had a 350 sbc nice street cam and 041 heads with air gap performer rpm intake in a 77 short bed, pulled hard from 45 to 71. Dual planes are hard to beat.
Also on dual plane manifolds the floor of the manifold below the carb. is at different height to each other left side to right side with a divider between.
That way the 4 runners for each side can run under or over the other runners providing longer runners for better low rpm performance or street running.
Great job explaining, THANKS !!!
Hi uncle tony very good explanation thank you for your knowledge 🔧👍
I have a sbc built up smoggers and decent Howard cam and I had an old Eddy original Torker intake and a 2" spacer dread bore adapter and surprising to me it jams it has great torque right off the bottom in a 92 c1500 with 3:08 gears...! I didn expect it., Mash the throttle off idle and it will light the tires. Even with the stock converter I had to put back in temporary my built trans with 2500 stall failed after 8 years
I've been running an original torker with a 2" tall spread bore adapter on a mild 355 for years in cars and trucks an it's works rock solid good low rpm Tq especially for an open pleanum. I ran a modded 800 Qjet it made good HP but the idle circuit never liked the intake/cam combo it always ran super rich down low. A buddy gave me a old cheap 1406 600 Eddy and no it doesn't have the top end pull but drivability and mpg sky rocketed.
That Torker II you got; I ran one of those on my Dad’s 413 & it was a WONDERFUL intake even for daily driving; everyone told me to run a dual plane & I did... but I put that Torker II back on it the same day because it ran so much better... no joke.
I'm surprised by that, my Fury III felt stronger with the dual plane, especially down low.
Donell Muniz: mines a solid .505 mopar performance purple shaft cam with about 10 to 1 compression & a 650 Edelbrock & 516 heads... change up the combo & who knows what we’ll get 😎
@@loganshotrod4x464 That makes sense, mine has the 274 hydraulic purple cam, 9.5 to 1 speed pros, with a 2000 stall and 3.55s.
Donell Muniz: starting to add up now... I’m running a 4 speed & 4.10’s
I like single plane intakes because my right foot is always glued to the floor board.
DAMMIT Tony, you taught me something again !
Standing waves and their reflections: They naturally supercharge your intake at the speed of sound (and correct RPM) in engines, and tune impedance match at the speed of light in electronic transmission lines.
A few months ago when you discussed the IIRC cross-ram intake in the circa 1960 Mopars you did a better job explaining this phenomenon.
Ok, science guy.
@@judythomas2939 Damn, you folks are in graduate school, while I'm stuck in 10th grade! And I'm 55! Some of that physics shit is just over my head!
I don't know why I arrived late to this vid, but thank you for the laugh: clearing that table was a therapeutic moment, There are times in a job where pulling off to do something else for a bit really is the right thing to do: it just works.
It's been some time since I crunched numbers, but I sat down one day to figure out the overlap time for a cam I installed at 6k rpm - I came up with 6.1 milliseconds [I think]. That isn't much time for scavenging window. So these valve events happen quick, and so it is with the pulse chaos in the manifold. The constant jitter underneath a 4 bbl in a single plane can be enough to allow fuel puddling which is why some single planes deserve a turtle. My hat's off to the wizards that figure out what combo's of runner length vs plenum volume works for various engine combo's - there's a good list of variables to sort out before committing to a casting. It all looks dead simple - until a combo leaves a bunch of power somewhere with no forwarding address...
That's what I do. The feeling is mutual though Tony. You sir are a hell of a mechanic. I work at a body shop as a collision tech, but also restore and sell muscle cars.
Thanks, here here in Australia i only have had 351 Clevelands for last 35 years have stuffed around with spacers and drilling out 4 hole manifolds to 2 i always thought it was just about how much flow and heat retention the fuel was getting never even heard about pulse rpm and runner length,,excellent imfo only have f100s so low rpm high torque is all i,m after, thanks
Just finished rockers and cab corners on my ram1500. Love spraying paint but hate the prep.
2 part comment. I did bodywork on cars for 20 years, at this point......its easy. Started working on yachts 3 years ago and 40yr veterans are amazed at how good my work is.
Second part. Im building a 455 for my trans am and got an Edlebrock performer intake for it. People say it flows the same as a stock intake and its no good. Then other people say a stock Pontiac intake is just as good as aftermarket. Im not looking for alot of power, just a good street car with a "little" oomf.
Raw layman's terms used! Love it... Keep it up my man!!
Awesome video! I need you to come clean my work bench off!
Great explanation. Thanks.
The science of yesterdays cars, it blows my mind. Took some very smart, very imaginative people. To create a engine
One of the old Direct Connection small block books had specific directions on how to trim down (1/2"?) the divider in the LD-4B and LD-340 manifold, including a notch, and asymmetrical jetting in order to even out the mixture to all 8 cylinders. That was just a little too much voodoo for me, never did it. I can't find those books now, they were paperback, about the thickness of a comic book. But I can't imagine myself tossing them in the trash. I wonder if those are still available, even online in pdf format?
Good explanation!
hey tony, have you covered when to go dual 4 barrel over single 4 barrel? should you ever go dual over single or is it just a cosmetic "looks cool" thing? thanks for all the great free content i have learned tons!
it really has more to do with getting even A/F distribution than MOAR FLOW.......think carburated version of port injection.
Great splainer vid UT!
the body man says the same thing when you work on an engine he don't know how you do it lol
Yup..thats a body man talking right there
Sooo true. I can do both but hate body work myself. Dents add character
So my mildly built 318 with Erson cam has an edlebrock performer dual plane intake with a 1" 4 hole spacer plate. Should I run the 1/2 " or the 1" open spacer plate to get more performance and to help with that pulse your talking about???
Thanks UT.. thats good info.. i do have a question sometime when your not too busy.. because I know the exhaust plays a part in the same role as far as "pulling" the exhaust out and "pulling" the fuel/air mix in during overlap.. but an old geared told me that just because you found the perfect intake for your engine, does not mean it will still be the perfect one after changing the exhaust.. theres a "sweet spot" where the two need to meet each other to maximize performance, and come into harmony. I dont remember it too well though tbh. I was only about 15. If you could go into depth there sometime I would greatly appreciate it..
Thanks again Tony
Finally after all these years...
I used to have a chevy 2.8 tbi motor, they had the worst factory intake ever made. I adapted an Edelbrock carb intake to the tbi unit. It was a dual plane intake and it with my homemade tbi adapter, it was 100% separated from bank to bank. It had great throttle response for an engine of that size but hit a brick wall at 3500. I ended up cutting the center out of the adapter and it would march up to 5000 with no problems. Those 2.8s had a 123456 firing order from bank to bank.
You forgot about the Offenhauser manifolds.....maybe save that for another intake video. ;)
Thanks for teaching us.
When I'm in the market for a new car, I'm getting a car like Tony's.
Love it man
😎👍
great vid... understood all of it.. now, i have never use nos.. my question is.... i have seen where people drill and tap into the runners and put the nos injector there and ive seen the fogger plates... can you do a vid on that?? and the benefits of that or no benefit
Really appreciate your sharing of knowledge. I love old school rodding. You clearly know your shit. ;) thanks so much.
i have the same tm6 manifold on my 383 works well
Great stuff uncle Tony! Now explain the plus/minus of carb spacers, please?!?
You just helped me so much. thanks for the info. You rock man :)
My first thought on seeing a Mopar intake is how equal the runners are even in a single plane application. Old SBC are similar based off valve port configuration. The LS went a different route, but that engine is designed around multi-port fuel injection.Clearly you would want to max the exhaust advantage vs the intake charge on such a design. But what about designs with carbs, Or I should state one carb. Multiple carb applications should tend to lead to better fuel distribution by nature in a single plane application either way.
Totally have to respect the body shop guys they have to work their asses off to make things happen.
Just a question/episode idea a 6 Pack or dual quad or single 4 barrel ? Which setup is better for street strip and which is the best for fuel efficiency ?
Just a idea. great video on the dual and single planes been wanting a simplification of them
Also on a side note I got my first mopar a few weeks ago it’s a 69 Roadrunner Post car 383HiPerf 727 car originally the R4 Barracuda Orange/High Performance Red.
Tony,
Looks like progress on the Dart....it's gonna look great. Weeee waaant Rain.....no I mean Slant 6, weee waaant slant 6.
I've had couple Edelbrock Torquer ll (single plane) a Victor jr. (was there a victor sr? Single plane) on SB 350s that shifted at 5.5 and each time ended up going back to the old reliable Edelbrock performer RPM manifold (hi rise dual plane)
I could get 7:90s in the 1/8 on the duel 8:10-850s on the singles....
Now on a 327 build that shifted closer to 7k the torquer ll single plane got my best times... that car had 150 hole shot NOS and run 7-7:20s
Hey Uncle Tony you should talk about motorcycles and their intake length. Most motorcycles operate at doubled RPMs of a car. Somewhere between 4000 and 10000. You see how small the intake runners are on a motorcycle. It explains your principal. Also how V8s that ran at Grand Prix have individual carburetors or injectors at each cylinder. Those engines were designed for high RPM. Whereas your average streetcar benefits from a dual-plane because of the length of runner versus RPM that benefits the wave you were talking about
Mopar dont make motorcycles, except for that Viper motored freak show 20 years ago.