Haha! As a former wife, I learned to break torque on said pickle jars. Turn them upside down at an angle holding in one hand and whack them soundly with the palm of the other hand. If that isn't enough, maintain position and hit the edge of the lid on a linoleum floor. If you have a hard floor, use a pot holder to cushion the blow. Works every time.
I was an auto mechanic for 22 years. I used a torque wrench on water pump, head, intake, transmission, all pan bolts, and lug nuts. Everything else was by "feel". I am now a high school auto shop instructor. I have my students torque almost all fasteners with a torque wrench. I believe that using a torque wrench over a couple of years builds the "feel" that allows a professional for the most part to do his/her job properly without it.
+EricTheCarGuy say one word and get 10,000 drop on your back. for the others just using a torque wrench doesn't means you know how to use one... do you know when to stop?
+Andrew Kavanagh well put,I've actually worked with guys that could torque a bolt by feel to with in a lb or 2 after years of experience.The torque nazi bean counters from corporate would always get on their case about it until they'd bet them a few bucks that they can do it by feel.The one tech took quite a few Ben Franklins with this one ;) and while they got a pass they'd also encourage the new guys to use a T wrench as much as possible.
***** while I agree the problem is that there are a lot of things that will get warped,crushed or otherwise possibly damaged by too much torque before this point ;)
a conversation i had with my manager once: Manager-"did you torque those caliper bracket bolts?" me- "yeah" Manager-'what did you torque them to?" me-"tight"
@@ryans413 Yes but caliper bracket bolts can range from 60 ft lbs to 250 ft lbs on big trucks. You could easily snap a bolt on a small car or under tighten a bolt on a big truck. Worth it to look up a torque spec for any brake or suspension component.
nthnhansen Yes but for the most part conman sense plays a big part of its getting too tight then it’s probably way too tight right and if it’s still kinda lose then it needs more tightening. You make some good point those things you wanna torque probably but things like an engine bracket or a bolt that hold the radiator in stuff like that most of the time snug is just fine
I really love the idea of getting each and every bolt torqued exactly by the book. But there are only a few jobs where I will break out my torque wrench (Snappy Tech wrench for those that care). Working on VWs, I use 1/4 drive a lot. As most fasteners are torqued from 10-20NM. It doesn't take too long to get the feel for 15NM on a valve cover nut. But as I said on FB, I like to see rookie techs use a torque wrench for a while. It helps to make sure they tighten ALL the bolts, and properly. I have had to bail out plenty of techs for breaking or stripping bolts. Some times a torque wrench would have prevented that. Some times not. Another point is, be sure your tools are in proper repair. I have seen several drain plugs loose due to a bad torque wrench. Just like with a scan tool, you can not blindly trust a torque wrench. Working on cars requires a little "grey matter" at times. ;)
+HumbleMechanic in my head as I read you comment... It was in your voice haha! I agree that it's not critical to use a torque wrench in every case or every fastener, but doing cylinder heads, oil pans, lug nuts, major suspension work (besides those with castle nuts) I will break out my torque wrenches, as Eric said in the video, 12mm and smaller I just use a 1/4" ratchet, or a shorter (stubby) wrench, bigger fasteners I do have shorter ratchets to use, and I will NEVER use those extending ratchets (the ones where the handle can slide to make it longer for more torque) to run down any fasteners, mainly use that 3/8" one when a 1/2" breaker bar isn't needed. Just today, replaced an alternator on a friends 86 suburban, 350 small block, the entire time he kept asking "you gonna torque that" when there was no need, told him after 8 years you get the feel of proper/close enough torque, sure enough I looked up the specs, between 25-35ft/lb, pulled out my digital torque gauge and read 29,
+Aarons Automotive also did a thermostat on a friends 2004 jeep TJ as he refuses to work on for gear of breaking something but has also never turned a wrench in his life and don't blame him for that fear. Well torque spec is 13-17ft/lb, used a 1/4" ratchet to tighten them and digital gauge to make him feel better read 16, so again, you tend to get the feel of them, yes I'm sure I have over torqued fasteners in the past but never by a lot nor do I reef on them with a 1/2" ratchet. Use what's appropriate for the size, and I've found that 90% of things if you make them snug to where you think they're "tight enough" than give them an 1/8-1/4 turn extra and usually seems to be just great, even on my own vehicles I've never had anything fall apart from to little torque, and have yet to strip a bolt or cause a leak from over tighten, but will use the torque wrench when needed.
+HumbleMechanic +EricTheCarGuy Experience builds muscle memory and one develops a "calibrated wrist" that is adequate for many fasteners and that same experience tells one when to breakout the torque wrench for when it is critical to be dead on.
Hey Eric , you're completely right . When I started in the trade about 10 years ago by the owner of my company . I was told what made a good mechanic is to know what not to torque !
Eric, my dad used to say, "You never have enough time to do it right the first time, but you always have time to do it again". I do believe that in your case, as a professional mechanic, you apply proper torque by hand. However, I'm afraid that you're giving the novice the impression that using a torque wrench is not important all the time. What if your water pump leaks, no big deal right? How about your suspension bolts, no big deal right? How about brake assembly bolts, what could possibly happen? My point is, torque IS important, and everyone SHOULD use a torque wrench to tighten bolts where there is a spec. Of course, I'm a little biased, as I work for Snap-on as a torque technician and trainer. (and thanks for being a Snap-on customer) Torque on dude !!
+Mingo Reliance Your point is taken, however you can't rule out the value of experience and muscle memory. I'm not saying my methods are perfect, but they work a majority of the time. For me that's proof at least that on some level I'm not wrong.
+EricTheCarGuy yeah. for the most part it isn't harmful. all I'm saying is that the human body is very interesting in the way it functions, and that we may not be as precise as we think. Muscle memory isn't something real, but that's a topic for a different discussion.
+Mingo Reliance It could also be argued that perception is something that's not so accurate, and subjective. By that logic the comments to my videos about torque would have even less value than me torquing things by hand. :)
When I did Honda J-series V6 timing belt, I wanted to do everything properly. So I torqued every idler pulley bolt, waterpump bolts, tensioner bolts, gear cover bolts and crank pulley (to 189 lb-ft!). Two years later and everything is spot on. I'm also happy, because my instructor told me that he had students do the same timing belt and they messed up the timing by one tooth. The engine was running so rough, they thought it was going to explode or at least that's what I've been told. So when I started my engine for the first time and it ran like a clock, my instructor was impressed and I hope more knowledgeable now that not every student is just a noob with a wrench hahaha
Ask a firearm fanatic how important muscle memory is. Same rules apply when tightening bolts. In automotive school one of my teachers was totally confident not using a torque wrench but wouldn't allow any of us to tighten almost anything without one. He wanted us to practice to get to his level of confidence... Great video Eric!
I'm a Kia technician. For the most part, I only break out my torque wrenches for internal components (i.e. Cam bolts, head bolts, valve body, etc). But honestly, the only thing I 100% bring out a torque wrench for, is head bolts. That's really the only thing that I feel requires it, no exceptions.
I maintained Army helicopters for over a quarter century. We were trained and reminded to use torque wrenches on almost everything. Some things lacked a torque setting (for good reason), but they were rare. It's true that you develop a feel for fastener settings after wrenching for many years. I well remember the Technical Inspectors getting hot on us new mechanics over simple things like panel screws. A common torque for the everyday panels on Bell Jet Rangers (we called them Kiowas) was 18 to 22 inch pounds. We quickly learned that well worn panels that had been removed and reinstalled numerous times, the torque value held true. But on newer fasteners, 22 inch pounds was not nearly enough to seat the screw head flush with the panel. After it became apparent that the torque setting was not enough, we were told to just run the screws down until an inspector couldn't get a finger nail between the screw and the panel.
I have a pretty simple rule: Torque to spec whenever: 1) Bearrings or Friction surfaces are involved 2) Large surfaces are involved (e.g. Head-Bolts) 3) When critical warpage can occur (e.g. Brake Rotors) In all other instances: Do it by feel. No car ever broke because the AC Compressor was not fastened with 45Nm....
How do you know. Range Rover owners had cracks in water pump housing due to some mechanic thinking that was the right torque. So customers paid for two timing belt jobs. ALL BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE AT THE CORRECT PRESSURE
Eric, I am worse than a Torque Nazi, I'm one of Snap-on's torque trainers. Thank you for the nice comments about our click wrenches. I'm proud of the fact that quality products are still being built here in the USA. I work at the California factory where your torque wrenches were made. As a torque trainer, I'd just like to add a few comments. While I agree that an experienced mechanic like yourself can develop a "feel" for torque, most young mechanics today do not have your experience, so to imply that torque is not important is a mistake. Yesterday's 327 Chevy cast iron block was way more forgiving when it comes to torque compared to today's aluminum blocks and heads. Don't guess, do it right the first time, or you'll be doing it again...
Excellent points. I'm honored by your input, and yes, I love my Snap-on torque wrenches. Although it's been some time since I had them calibrated. I should probably get that taken care of. Thanks again.
Not to mention listed torque specs aren't always right. Age and condition also effects torque specs. If you go around torquing everything based on a number off the internet you're going to do a lot of snapping and stripping.
Good point about using the right size ratchet for the job. When I was a kid on the farm, I used 1/2" ratchets and breaker bars for everything. I was a little kid and needed a little more leverage. As I grew up, I noticed I would break bolts every now and a again. Finally I realized, I didn't need that 1/2" drive ratchet for a 1/4" bolt. There is still times I need that 3/4" drive stuff and a good cheater pipe, but after a while you do get that feel for how tight something is. Myself, I don't use a torque wrench much. Most repairs on farm equipment don't need it and there isn't a spec to look up. Now when I'm digging into an engine or something like that, then we get it out. Otherwise, snug them down good, then give them just a bit more.
In small engine repair in highschool I failed to torque the flywheel nut properly(Didn't use a torque wrench) twice and ended up with 2 destroyed shear keys. I had to re read that chapter and found out I forgot to torque the nut. Didn't help that the carb wasn't working properly and the engine was going full throttle when I was starting it. Engine would start screaming and then there would be a loud squelching sound.
As you mentioned the "feel" comes from years of experience. I torque all the bolts on every transmission I build because uneven torque can lead to covers or extension housings loading sideways when gaskets are used. Also gaskets compress as different rates so sometimes you have to retorque once a gasket settles into place. Even with a torque wrench you still have to develop a feel. Example I had a transmission case that had 2 cover bolt holes not threaded deeply enough. I could feel the bolt twisting but not tightening. So how do I get Snap on to let me demo one of those digital ones?
+GearBoxVideo Thanks for your input. I'll say this, no one that I know of is able to talk to Snap-on. They're kinda like the Vatican from what I've seen.
Kinda is. I've tried emailing, calling and got in touch with several people. The chain of people I had to go through to get to the right person was silly and typical of all old school companies not understanding new marketing. I followed up with emails and Snap On never had the decency to at least respond and say no. In fact I left messages with local dealers listed on their bullshit dealer finder and never got a call back. I was looking to buy a very expensive Torque wrench. Same actually for Mac-Tools. Fuck them all! Snap On and Mac Tools barely respond on social media. I tweeted to them all as well. Including Craftsman. On the other hand got an instant response from Matco with a dealer contacting me the next day and had a Matco ETWB100A Digital wrench in my hand within 3 working days. Bottom line.... when you are going to drop $400 to $600 on a tool you should expect instant pre sales support. If they are too stupid not to make that effort then they don't deserve your business. After all, how would I trust they are going to give any support after the sale?
+GearBoxVideo what i think guys is that those companies are so famous for their good quality tools and mechanics well know that they consider they have nothing to support you guys are spendin large amounts of your hard earned money and probably getting a tool that was made in china with u.s.a stamped on it and not even know it how many times has that happend if those companies don't care for their costomers well fuck em someone else is ready to take their place
I would say 90 percent of the tool companies won't even call you back. I tried unsuccessfully with SnapOn, Mac Tools and Gearwrench. Matco was pretty good at getting me a dealer but basically are reselling Gearwrench products at double the costs. The only thing you get for paying double is a somewhat a lifetime warranty
Excellent point about over torquing wheel bolts - this should really be emphasized more as it is way more common than you think. I've shouted at a number of tire techs for sticking an air impact with a socket right onto my wheel bolts and holding the trigger until it stopped, even though the proper torque sticks were just feet away.
You're doing the right thing explaining this to people. I only go after a torque wrench when tightening down anything holding the engine together and very few other places. The rest is the quarter-turn/half-turn rule. (Quarter-turn for non-load bearing, half-turn for load bearing)
2003 f150 200k miles. The front wheel bearings are in the brake disc/hub with a cotter pin and nut lock. I have been assured on several occasions that they need to be torqued down about 100 ft-lbs when, in fact, the wheel needs to be spun, torqued down 30 ft-lbs spun again to seat the bearings, backed off 1/4 turn and then hand tightened. One shop tightened them with the former method and it gave me a clicking sound when slowed down into a left turn.
I do everything on my car, because I'm not afraid to get the necessary information and (if needed) tools for the job. The torque wrench gives me confidence as a hobby mechanic, so I can worry on other things...it's just one less thing I can potentially screw up. For people who don't work that often on cars torquing down is highly recommended in my opinion. How should I "lighten up", if I never felt the right torque in the first place. So as you said, it's a matter of experience, which a casual mechanic (probably most of your viewers) simply doesn't have.
I agree with you. I use a torque wrench a lot right now because I'm learning what each torque setting feels like. I don't worry about small bolts much b/c I'm not very strong and I can get to maybe 30 ft-lb using a half-inch drive and all my strength. If I snug something up using a 3/8 inch drive, it's probably between 15 and 20 ft-lb. I would have to use a breaker bar to over-torque just about anything. I have to use a breaker bar to get my lug nuts to proper torque. Once you develop the muscle memory, you don't need the tool unless you're going for a lot of precision and accuracy.
I applaud your honesty! Anyone who wants to get a feel for how tight is tight enough, get some gasket material and some drilled flat stock. Put a piece of gasket between the flat stock and experiment with it. To tight is when you crush the gasket, not tight enough you see gaps. Torque specs can be wrong! My experience with older engines is on valve and timing covers is tighten to a little past full gasket contact which is less than recommended torque usually. To anyone just starting out get a good manual for your vehicle and if you have a question look it up.
+Mustie1 I'm liking my T-handles these days. The more I do this, the more I seem to move back toward hand tools. I find that interesting. Mostly because I've seen a lot of older techs using hand tools. I always thought it made them slower. The older I get, the more I realize the wisdom behind their methods. Thanks for your input.
+EricTheCarGuy I like air for tear downs and for suspension/body work. For eng/trans I use air for removal and hand tools for assembly. UNLESS the bolts are going into plastic, then it's hand tools both ways.
+EricTheCarGuy do you think you would feel the same if you were working in a flat rate environment? I think for me, I'd be too caught up in my own habits to even try it. But I am difficult like that.
When someone dislikes something, they are more likely to comment than someone who favors something. Making more negative comments than positive. I have enjoyed 98% of your content that I have watched Eric. I say 98% because I cant commit myself 100% to something haha. But I enjoy every video I watch from you. I wish you had the same vehicle that I do, just so I can learn more about my vehicle through you! Not to mention, your camera angles are always perfect (far better than the majority of other youtubers), you know what you're talking about, you're honest, you have great content, and quite often you're funny! Just letting you know I enjoy your videos, even though I, and I'm sure many others, don't comment often. Thanks for what you do!
10 years as a vehicle mechanic and 30+ as a aircraft mechanic. I always did torque on engine, transmission and brake critical items, cams, crankshafts, heads, bearings and then the rest my calibrated wrist took over. After a few years you get a feel to what the bolt and or nut is telling you from feel, is it really needed when you tighten the grille back on and the torque spec says 15 inch pounds. Thats slightly over a foot pound and really you know just hand tighten and be observant it will do a slight displacement of the plastic on the grille. On a aircraft everything is torqued to spec using calibrated and certified torque equipment. It is simply you can pull over at 35,000 feet to fix a minor thing. On a car well you can pull over. Where I worked prior to my retirement from aircraft manufacturing we had to have our own tools until about five years before I retired. I had a full set of Utica/Bonney torque wrenches that I bought in the late 1970's and they were sent in to the calibration lab every six months to be certified. They were never out more + or - 1%. Thats acceptable to me. Those torque wrenches still reside in my personal tool box at home.
I think it makes sense for amateurs to pay more attention to torque in situations where a pro might not. There are situations where everybody is going to torque to spec (and in the proper order), like with head bolts. Then there are a bunch more situations where it's up to you. I know I've paid a ton more attention to torque ever since I broke a stud off of the isolator at the top of one of my front springs by over-torquing the bolt. If I had more experience, I might not have needed to torque it, but as an amateur, I made a mistake by not doing so. I suspect many "torque Nazis" are DIYers who don't work under time constraints or have a bunch of experience under their belts to serve as a guide. To them, seeing someone guesstimate torque seems 1) improper and 2) potentially dangerous. It's not dangerous at all for an experienced pro, but they're actually right that it might be for a beginner. Bearing in mind that a major part of your audience is inexperienced, an occasional reminder for beginners to consider using a torque wrench might not be totally out of place.
+2chadreed2 they are not sold in the USA, besides they are just re branded chevys, daewoos, opels and isuzus (except for the commodore which is a true holden)
I will say that feel goes a long way. I work in the AF building bombs for a living. we have a very specific bomb that requires 100lb/ft of torque on the lugs that attach the bomb to the aircraft. I can regularly hand tighten those lugs to within an eighth of a turn of the required torque without ever having gone over having built hundreds of these bombs. of course we go back and use a calibrated torque wrench because that's not an area you want or are allowed to violate what the book tells you. point is, the calibrated hand is real.
Eric, You are correct. Not every bolt needs torqued. I only torque select items such as yourself. I always add a note in my videos stating to check your own torque specs, and to check the manuals cause my videos are only for reference. Can not stand the torque happy comments.
Thank you Eric. As per your with or without torque wrench. Try to torque steel bolt to aluminum at 20lbs. The bolt / threaded hole will stretch at 15lbs and if you use torque wrench, you will not feel the stretch and helicoil for sure. You need to feel the metal on metal without torque wrench and experience teaches you. Note, correct way is to retap and clean out but still will feel the stretch and less torque maybe the only way.
Lol, I get those torque nazis too. I usually tell them that I use goodentight torque. Then there's those guys that get mad for me not mentioning torque specs in the video... They expect us to google it for their specific vehicle I guess;)
+BleepinJeep Yea, it's interesting to see what different people take away from our videos. It's also interesting to see what they expect from us. Funny what people will expect to get for free. Not saying I expect to get paid for every comment, I'm speaking more to what people seem to expect based on a video they watched on the internet.
+BleepinJeep Love your vids too bruh! I learned how to replace my double cardan joint in my Explorer thanks to you. 4 years as a tech and never dealt with one. It wasn't very easy to find with certainty either...you tell people lifted 94 Explorer and they're like a deer in headlights :-\. Good thing I know how to measure shit lol. Thumbs up and thank you to you both.
+BleepinJeep I make mostly MINI Cooper repair videos. I know MINIs very well so I make an effort to put torque values where possible. If I work on another kind of car, I'm not going to put torque values because they can change even within the same model run and I don't want to be the target of someone's frustration for faithfully following what could be wrong values. All repairs are ultimately the responsibility of the guy or girl behind the wrench.
I’m not nazi but I do torque every fastener, including trim bolts and battery terminal bolts. If there is a spec, heck I will do it. If there isn’t, I will find it and if not, I finish the job and treat is as limp home mode until I find it again. It never is a bad thing to get everything to spec, you can never be too accurate.
Whenever there is a gasket or joint, torque to spec., exhaust shields... not really vital. I try to torque as much as I can, but sometimes it's jut not physically possible (like my fuel rail fasteners).
Thank you for this. Critical applications. Critical understanding. Critical tools. As for "feel," even experienced over torque fasteners. Especially the low torque ones. I love your going the extra mile about crows foot, and other extensions. They also effect feel. Tired, bruised, injured may effect feel. I had not considered T-wrenches to reduce toque and increase feel. Many over torque by moving too fast, miss the clicks, over torque, even damage even quality wrenches. Some will never learn feel., never follow instructions. Know thyself. Last word on feel: I loaned one. got it back damaged, did not realize it until I went to use it. I now have a few torquers, but then it cost me time and money. But that feel on the head bolt tipped me off. No broken fasteners, no damaged heads. No irate customer. Thank you for serving. We know CZcams doesn't pay well these days.
As a tech since 92, I agree with your points. You learn a feel for a bolt/screw/ nut. By feel, by sound of the air tool, sound of the cordless tool. As a flat rate tech, time is crucial. How much torque should you put on a 5.5 mm screw up under the dash holding a plastic bracket on a warranty job that pays .4 of an hour? You stop working on the car, get to the proper service manual, find the part in the proper section, look the spec up, get out the 1/4 torque wrench and then figure how to get the wrench under the dash, tighten the screw to 15 in-lbs. If your pretty quick it might take 5-10 mins to find the spec in the book, or net. Or just zip it down with a 1/4 ratchet and move on. Some things need proper and very accurate torque. 05 F-150 front hub bearings are a nice example. Too loose or too tight.. the bearing will go bad quickly, so a 700$+ torque wrench is needed or a torque multiplier (most torque wrenches go to 250 ft-lbs, this must be 295 ft-lbs)
Any bolt involed with a gasket, critical bearing surface or tight tolerance ill torque. The rest I use a german method of tightening called the "goodentite" method...
Also there are some very car make specific instances where torque is critical. A good example is on a mercedes benz M273 engine found in S550's, the valve covers actually have the cam bearing caps built into them, so if you improperly torque them you need all new heads on that engine... so just know your car brands and always read the proper instruction on fixing the vehicle.
Oh my god, I wish I could like this videos more than once. You're the man Eric. People make the torque comments on my channel all the time. I really laughed at your "lighten up!" comment, haha.
I have used many different procedures and many were not as the manual described . I always torque internal engine and transmission fasteners going into Aluminum , sometimes under-torqued and sometimes use a thread locker .Many head gasket jobs I did got torqued (to the old specs before torque to yield came along) rather that torqued to yield and I never had one come back or issue . Great video and I agree !
Like what you said "If I don't have the answer I will direct you to someone who does". I had a teacher in high school that drilled into us "It's not a matter of knowing all the answers, but where to find them." Roger Svoboda.
personally I like to torque as many bolts as possible. because the way I see it manufactures spend hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars each year on engineers that find out what torque those bolts should be done up too. they wouldn't spend the money if it wasn't necessary.
+DEMMERY11 but here's the thing, the bolt manufacturer has designed the bolt for specific applications, engineers make it look good on paper, most of the time it comes down to the manufacturer of the item to make it work, your torque values on paper might not even be the same as what it came from the factory as! I see it all the time, I'm on the manufacturing end!
+DayRider76 they are designed by engineers and made by manufacturing engineers, with the help of machinists and other various people. But, the torque values should come from SAE standard testing and/or real testing...........
@ 4:14 Eric, can you post the video on "Twerking Headbolts". Just kidding man, it gave a great image in my head. Love your attitude, and love your videos. Keep em coming brother!
+EricTheCarGuy even that Bieber guy for back ground live music would be better than that Cyrus chick for 2 seconds... Unless it papa Cyrus, that I could handle ;)
ETCG is telling us is that an experienced mechanic can use good judgment to call it when it comes to reassembling. It is time consuming to use a torque wrench when required and it requires skill to know how much torque your applying by hand without a gauge. BUT he does mention that when doing torque critical fasteners he doesn't hesitate to take the extra time, head bolts, wheel nuts etc etc! Nice upload Eric!
I agree with you. The only time I use a Torque wrench is for head bolts, auto gearbox sump pan bolts espeially if the gasket is a rubber gasket. Years of experience turns your elbow into a torque wrench. You develop a feel for the nut or bolt especially when removing a rusted seized bolt. Gr8 vid Eric 👍🇬🇧
Eric, I am a big fun of Your program, but I am sorry to say sometimes you passing to people wrong message. I am mechanical engineer, and some of your comments are just misleading people who are learning. Most of my life I spent working on aero-engines, to be precise I am stress engineer. So I would apply Finite Elements method to calculate strength of all sort of components and assemblies. Bolts are one of the most important components (if not the most) in machinery, and when you saying that torquing bolts is to evenly distribute pressure around mating parts my blood is boiling. I don't want to go over here in detail, but every single fastener is calculated to operate and have proper pre-calmp force in hot environment, in cold environment, it is checked against slippage, against crush stress, or event to check whether they withstand impact/crash, etc, etc, etc. Really if that would be only about ditributing pressure, do you think guys in manuals give you specific torque for every fastener. I am messing around cars, quite a lot, and I have met hug problems with setting full wheel alignment when some of the bolts wren't properly torqued. I have seen exhaust leaking due to wrong torquing (to big, not to small) etc... What I am trying to pass to you is that you are trying educate people, so please do it right, without such comments as in this video.
+Lukasz Gryczewski Thanks very much for your input, but I think you misread my comments. I believe I stated that torque IS important, but it's not something I do often these days. It was not my intention to belittle the importance of torque, but rather to illustrate the point that after performing repairs as a professional technician for several years, I don't often break out the torque wrench. I understand where you're coming from, and the engineering behind what you're saying, but you leave out the ever important factor of time. As a professional technician you're often working against the clock to make a paycheck. To torque every single fastener to spec in most cases would undermine your paycheck. What I am saying is that after a time, you can develop a 'feel' for how tight to make things, and also know when breaking out the torque wrench is important. In no way was I insinuating that torquing fasteners was irrelevant. Thanks again for your input.
+ETCG1 Cool Eric. I am happy we are on the same page, well almost ;) I would like You, as well as other technicians out there probably put a bit more interests in torquing properly bolts. Personally along 10 years spent in industry I have seen only one a guy who has been checked against torque wrench and always was +/-5%. So I am not saying it is impossible to have the 'feeling' but still is molto important at least to be aware why you should torquing all bolts per spec. On the other hand I hear your fair arguments of people working against time - however I am sure you agree this is when usually stuff goes wrong. Generally I am against it, I think we should more concentrate on quality rather than quantity, shame that people up at the top level don't get this. Backing to the subject, from an engineering point of view (as I deal with a lots of technicians on a shop-floor every day) can you please sneak a bit more 'professional' knowledge? You probably get by this time I am foreigner but I hope this will illustrate what I am asking. Technician will say hole, engineer (or good technician) will say bolt hole. I hope this make sense. Again You are doing excellent work! All the best!
I didn't even know torque wrenches were a thing you used outside of precision work (transmissions, engine internals, etc) for the longest time and I have yet to see a reason to. Most fasteners just need to be tight enough to not fall out and the acceptable torque range is between "snug" and "extra snug". The one time I've used a torque wrench was for the lug nuts on my car, but after the suckers started loosen up on me a couple hundred miles down the road I've stopped doing that. Now I just lay on them with the breaker bar and haven't had a problem since.
Hello ETCG. I have worked as a mechanic for the past 2 and a half years now. I still consider myself a rookie mechanic. I can relate to your comment about getting a feel for the right torque. Ive been torquing nuts and bolt without using a torque wrench.
Don't forget Eric you have been doing this a long time. just as scotty has been as he says you been in the field long enough you can almost feel the right Torq.
You should try working in aviation, the torques must be witnessed by an inspector. Yes it is important Eric. Thanks, love your videos. Sam. When torqueing a castell nut you have a range of torque, you start low and work higher to position the cotter pin hole or whatever safety device. I do understand where you are coming from I do not do all of this on my vehicles, but your so called feel is BS.
Depends on the circumstance a water pump fail on a car so what a propeller on a plane come off then you have a problem if a flange on an acid pipeline fails people die so again it depends on the circumstance and the risk involved in failure!
Well feel doesnt have to be that acurate but if its in 30% range some bolts dont really care that much. I know that although i like to torque with tw almost every bolt haha.
+ETCG1 lol no you know they going to say. Why wouldn't you care to torque a customers car when they are your customers and paying you but yet would definitely do your own! Me personally I don't torque anything but then again I'm just a 'CARPORT' mechanic. Lol but will be doing my wheels now! Keep up the good videos your my go to guy with questions. All though I really wish you would work on a H3 hummer sometime. Cause I've been trying for months and months to figure out this cooling issue but nothing yet figured out. :-(
The only improper tightened/torqued bolt or fastener are the ones that come loose or snap off after you have tightened it down. Whether done with or without a torque wrench.
I agree with Eric, I used to always use a toque wrench, but after time I got the feel for it. I as well will still toque head bolts and high pressure components, but it's not always necessary for every job. But for a beginner, absolutely look up the torque specs until you get the hang of it.
You know in the UK it had become legislated that mechanics had to torque down head bolts and still have to have all wrenches calibrated every 6 months. We had many garages that never did use a torque wrench on head bolts for years and some mechanic shops had returns and law suits against them for bad workmanship being the fundamental cause of the engine failure. Also note the failure caused accidents which resulted in serious injury and or death. So they put in place a British Standard practice for garages to use torque wrenches and also a way that a court of law could fine and or prison mechanics and home DIY enthusiasts who were to blame for an accident due to their workmanship. Calibrated torque wrenches kind of became cover your ass mentality. All that went out the window as well when Rover came around with the K series engine which does not have its bolts torqued down but angularly set being a stretch bolt instead of a clamp it tight fastener. Now many manufacturers are copying Rover in the stretch bolt design so a torque wrench is not that important any more but angular tightening is. A torque wrench still has its place for suspension components and chassis to body mounts, bushings etc.
+Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) What have you been smoking? It never has been law that a mechanic has to torque anything down in the UK. In fact anyone can call themselves a mechanic and set up a workshop today and charge for their services. I presume you are talking about the K series Rover engine where they boasted about their high tech design and build (they, like a lot of manufacturing plants use robotic tools that individually sense the optimum point where tightening should stop) but that didn't stop that advanced design being badly bolted together and cheap parts used internally. They are known as singing kettles because of their frequency of blowing head gaskets.
cfook I remember reading the court cases that were published after the case was over regarding a person taking mechanic to court over causing a motorway accident after the cylinder head blew off and was convicted to the mechanics workmanship for being the cause of this. It was an old case many many years ago. I am surprised you don't know that tools across the trade in UK industry requires to be calibrated to spec and is legislated. It is not illegal not to use these tools but if something happens and you are in court facing the blame then you will learn fast what it's all about. Yes the K series engine is a prone HGF no doubt about it but it was down to not paying attention to the cooling system. Making alloy castings too thin, if they were machined from billet alloy the problem would not have been so prominent but it was cheaper to cast them and with casting it is weaker and requires you to cast it much thicker than if it was machined from billet. Stupid mistakes across the board for sure but that said to say that only Rover K series engines suffered from this problem is unfair. Even Honda, Alfa Romeo and ford amongst others have had the same problem and it was generally almost always due to cooling issues. So yes cheap parts used, yes mistakes made but all in all the K series engine really was well advanced and well before it's time. This design has shaped today's engines you can not deny that.
+Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) +Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) You really should stop digging. "You know in the UK it had become legislated that mechanics had to torque down head bolts and still have to have all wrenches calibrated every 6 months." No part of that is true. Regular calibration is good working practice, shows professionalism, and is included in my ISO records, is it a legal requirement? Absolutely not. "Legislated" does not translate into something you just made up.
cfook I think you will find it is buried in the legislation and touches within hearsay criminal law amongst others. It is what type of evidence is admissible etc etc. It does not have a specific legislation defining this particular subject, it is how evidence can be placed before a court as to what is admissible as evidence regarding said allegations. If you prove you have followed all the good practice as to what is deemed acceptable such as calibrated tooling then this can be used as evidence in your claim or defence. It is one of them things if you neglect to do under certain circumstances you are going to struggle to prove your case. If you are looking for a simple plain cut layman terms legislation about it then good luck with that, it is a minefield at the best of times. I am not going into it any deeper on a Monday, you go do your research. Remember it is said in a court of law, ignorance is no excuse.
kray brother I’ve never had that happen so far with my TechAngles from Snappy (2 different generations 1/4” 1/2” 3/8”) .. calibration costs a TAD more at times, but not by much. I love them. Never going back!
There are a few critical things to keeping parts together and/or sealed. Clean surfaces, proper gasket/seal, and equal torque on mounting fasteners. Having said that, I rarely torque fasteners unless I feel it's necessary. I've been a professional technician for ten years now and I can vouch for what ETCG says. You get a feel for how tight a 6mm fastener is, or a 8mm fastener is after you've done it a few hundred times, let alone a few thousand times. You torque the critical stuff, you tighten by feel/experience on the non critical stuff. It's a time saving thing in the world of professional auto repair.
Very sage advice Eric, I heartily concur. I use my 1/2 inch sockets for - wheel nuts, cylinder heads and large fasteners - and use the 1/4 inch set more often than not whenever I can. The 3/8 inch set is handy for undoing stubborn fasteners in confined spaces and for nipping up a medium sized fastener that needs that little extra that one can not get from the 1/4 inch. I use a torque wrench for critical fastenings but not for much else.
ive watched your videos for years now, and am getting disappointed by your later ones. so what your saying is, you'll torque your own projects cause you care but not your customers cause your working flat rate. That's just poor integrity. Making a video or not, you should care about the job you're doing no matter what the pay. I feel another RE: video coming on
+christopher fuller No Re: video, this is my response. I stand by my statements. I'm sorry you see them that way. I'm not saying I'm only going to torque my own projects, just where I feel it's warranted and in most cases, I don't see that it is. I'm not alone in this as most professional technicians aren't torquing every single fastener. It's just not practical or necessary.
+christopher fuller I got say I didn't hear that, to me it sounded like he torques things that are really necessary to torque and the most recent example he had of that was his own transmission. I dont know about you but I dont bother torquing every single bolt in my car either. Even if I wanted to it would be very difficult to find torque specs for every single bolt, usually only the bolts people bother torquing are easy to find.
+EricTheCarGuy I'm only going off what you said. That's all we can do. I'm a tech as well, and I don't torque every fastener. it is like you said, as a mechanic you get the "feel" for how it should be.
A part of my routine, before putting a car into a garage for a service, is to remove the locking wheel nuts , and torque all the wheel nuts to the correct spec. When I got my car back from my last service, two of the wheels on one side were horsed up tight, while the other two were still to spec. From this I deduce that the mechanic only checked my brakes on one side of the car. I find this kind of shoddy practice to be quite common. I didn't bother complaining about it. They just won't get my future business.
I remember reading a reasearch paper testing about 1000 technicans their torquing skills using "gray matter". They were 25-50% off on dry and greased bolts and on different sizes. Actually they were measuring clamping force which is all about. They even showed how properly torqued fastener but not prepared properly (rusted, dry,...) was 10 - 20% off required clamping force which was enough to unfasten bolts on vibration table.
This segment exemplifies what bothers me about taking your car to a shop. As Eric the car guy stated, he doesn't torque all fasteners to spec, rather he developed a feel for torquing close to that spec, thus saving time. However; you the customer is charged on a flat rate basis, which means you're being charged for the technician to identify and torque the fasteners to spec. You're not getting that service you're being charged for. The technician benefits by reducing the time working on you car and the shop benefits by charging you for more than what is actually done to your car. Both technician and shop benefits at your expense. Don't get me wrong, I have unlimited respect for Eric, but it's not cool to charge for one service while providing a "lesser" one.
I remember a show about a restoration of an E-Type Jaguar, and when they were doing the re-assembly the host tightened the various fastener to a spec he called "FT", for "Fully Tight". If he had pulled out a torque wrench for every fastener, he would probably still be putting the car back together.
I totally agree Eric. When I repaired Submarines in the Navy we Torqued every bolt to spec but peoples lives depended on our work. When I worked in the ROV industry we had Torque wrenches but only used them on assemblies where an uneven torque could affect the assembly in a negative fashion. In my experience it has always been over torquing that has been an issue, especially with hydraulic fittings. Part of being a good Mechanic or Technician is having that feel for what you are doing. I rarely got to see what I was doing anyway as what ever I was working on was always buried behind, under, in back of or just generally near impossible to get to anyway.
I always torque things that are important like Head bolts and crank rods n mains. Do I torque water pump and starter bolts.......hell no! You have to use common sense which really is not common at all. In many cases, a torque spec is supplied to make sure some heavy handed numbskull doesn't strip or break a fastener. Is it critical that a bumper bracket be torqued to a spec of 47in lbs? Fuck no! Is it critical that a new head bolt be torqued to a spec of 27ft lbs the first sequence pass, 54ft lbs the second sequence pass and then use a torque dial indicator to turn each head bolt an additional 230degrees for the third and final sequence? Fuck yes!
As a recovering torque wrench addict, Thank You! Yes I still torque lug nuts, and would torque head bolts if I had occasion to install a cylinder head.
I agree, overtime you learn to 'feel' how tight something needs to be, for me that learning curve was not without incident, but i soon learnt not strip out the threads on aluminium casings, and not to break wheel studs. But, like most there are some things i will always torque to spec, head bolts, bearing caps etc. And these days i do make a point of using the correct torque for wheel nuts, mainly to insure that the wheel can easily be removed if you get a puncture beside the road - nothing worse than finding out you cannot get the nut undone with the small wheel wrench that comes with the car.
Eric you should make a video of you tightening nuts by "feel" and guessing your applied torque. Then testing your "experience" by obtaining an objective measurement. It would give this video a lot more credibility!
One of my absolute favorite tools is a 3/8 drive speed handle that my brother gave me. The offset allows some impressive torque, BUT requires you to really work for anything over maybe 15 ft-lbs. Absolutely beautiful for spark plugs & other long-thread, low-torque fasteners!
I can do ~15 ft lbs with a nut driver. But I have very strong hands too. A good way to find that is to oppose the ratchet to a beam type torque wrench and see what all your "oomph" can generate.
@@snap-off5383 Yeah, I didn't really mean that it's _difficult_ to apply more torque with it; more that you have to put noticeable effort in unlike a ratchet, where you can just lean on it casually and - whoops! It's also really not an ergonomic shape for applying much torque, because you have to push the two grips in opposite directions to keep it from tilting.
My father was a machine design engineer. He taught me that a torque spec. is a best guess. The smoothness of the threads, cleanliness, lubrication etc all affect the actual bolt stress. If you are an experienced mechanic I think you can guess your best just fine for most things.
Perfectly spoken Sir. There is a time and place for your torque wrenches. When your making a living on flat rate it is just not feasible to torque everything. Experience and feel go a long way , knowing when to let off a fastener is a skill in and of itself. I think that when you work on one make of car you really start to know these cars in and out , that includes the fasteners too. Like you said Eric , break out that torque wrench on engine , trans stuff and for certain lugs. Im a KIA tech so I use a nice torque stick on my impact for wheels, every 30 cars or so ill check its accuracy against a torque wrench. I think you have made some solid points in this video Sir, Keep up the good work!
Doesn't that depend on the mechanic and the quality of experience? The saying, " Some people never learn." comes to mind. I know of studies of aircraft mechanics That indicate otherwise. Especially with lower torque fasteners. You pay your fare and take your chances? Problem? Just pull off to the side of the sky, get out your spares and tools!! I would say that the arena of competition and it's governing body determines the rules. In some cases life hands out the penalties. To compete and win means you must be found to have followed the rules. Like I said, pay your money and take your chances.
you are SOOOOO right on this. our experience and taught us when a fastener is going to break using a given tool. we would never make any money if we took a torque wrench to every nut and bolt. Critical fit surfaces, and rotational parts yes use it. but beyond that. my hands know.
Take a drink every time he says 'torque'. In all seriousness though, good insight on the subject. For the longest time (DIY, here) I didn't even have access to a torque wrench. I tightened down lug nuts by breaker bar alone until it felt right. Only recently did I get one in half inch drive. I personally believe that it also depends on what it is you're tightening. Lugnuts, perhaps brake calipers or other hardware that's rather important should be torqued to spec. Other bolts like the ones holding my seats or gauge cluster in, not so much. I also didn't own a pair of jackstands for the longest time, and only got them after I bought a pair myself. Now that I have these, I use them every time the job calls for them. BTW; you're very humble. I like that.
I don't have a year of working on my car or owning a car and I got a feel for torquing spark plugs and lug nuts, i haven't stripped them or made it impossible to remove, haven't warped rotors, my tires havent gotten loose and ride off on their own and lug nuts haven't gotten loose without vibrations, so yeah, got a nice feel for them, I don't even own a torque wrench, just a 3/8 drive 1½ft long rachet and a 3 feet long breaker bar. For lug nuts I have a cross wrench or iron, not as much leverage as a breaker bar and a deep socket but it works.
I think we're all Torque Nazis early on when we're learning, and it really is experience that helps get over that hump. I've found over the years that torque specs are really for machined surfaces and rotating masses held down by more than one fastener. Like every rule, there are exceptions, but that's where experience comes in; being able to look at something and say "I don't trust my judgement with this, I'm grabbing the torque wrench."
I have a very simple method for tightening bolts. If the ft-lbs number is low, I tighten the bolt down a little. If the number is somewhere in the middle, I tighten the bolt down a bit more but not too much. If the number is high, I give it a good firm pull. If the number is really high, I give it a good pull with a breaker bar but not too much. Never once had a problem.
We have a saying in Dutch: "vast is vast", which roughly translates to "tight is tight" and it means that if it feels like leaning on something any further might break it, it's probably tightened enough. ;)
I have been working on cars for years. I have 2 torque wrenches and I rarely use them. After a while of doing the same jobs over and over again you get a feel for how much torque you can apply just with a regular wrench. I haven't had a problem yet.
Regarding t-handles, there's a video floating around of I think? RE Amemea disassembling a rotary engine. The guy is an absolute artist with a t-handle.
What the torque preachers also seem to forget is that torque values are based on clean, dry threads. And how often are they clean and dry? Ergo, even when torqued, they probably aren't torqued. You'll still have random values, based on some threads that are oilier (less resistance, therefore too tight) or dirty (more resistance, therefore too loose).
There have been a few times I couldn't get the torque wrench in a tight spot. I usually end up taking it to the vise with a wrench that will work in the space and actually 'feel' for a torque. Pretty good self teaching experience.
That's the beauty of DIY...you can take the time to strive for perfection but for most real world fixes you have to expect "good enough" unless you are paying perfection level rates. The real comfort of torquing is the added insurance that the work is done to such specifications that your less likely to have to revisit the repair or worry about having to drill out a broken fastener as a result of improper tightening as one drill out will justify the "should have" torquing of every fastener on a vehicle. This added insurance is usually not worth the time cost to most flat rate techs that haven't experienced problems with judging by feel.
Having spent years as an Army aircraft mechanic we had to torque everything. It was overused for sure and made repairs very slow, especially when you didn't own any torque wrenches and had to check them out from the tool shed. Your right, it's not necessary on all applications.
Good video/message and I can agree with a few points. FWIW extensions do not influence torque applied to a fastener. They may twist causing more movement of the torque wrench to reach a certain torque but the wrench is looking for a resistance. The torque given to the head of an extension equals the torque off the end of the bar.
Even torque on a part is one benefit. I think its also important when drastically different materials are involved. Bolt -vs-threaded material, softer metal always looses. Repeatedly over torquing drain bolt will eventually stretch aluminum threads.
Missed my birthday by one day! A trick I use when tightening small bolts is to hold the ratchet by the head instead of the handle to give less leverage.
Good call @ETCG1- I struggle to find it on the internet, but I once read a study comparing the torque values applied by experienced mechanics to the actual torque applied. The study found that experienced mechanics were within a few foot-pounds of the specified torque, with minimal scatter, consistently. Thus supporting what you've said - experience goes a long way. Good show mate!
I helped an airplane maintenance technician with his 280Z. He knew I worked for Datsun so he asked for help. At one point he said there must be a torque value for this. I said Andrew! It's never going to leave the ground!
I'm glad we were able to have this heart-to-heart torque.
I torque everything to 80lbs. My wife can never open the pickle jar.
That ensures your utility as husband!
McTag Very funny.
I do believe that is the actual torque spec for ALL pickle jars, as least it seems so...LOL
🤣
Haha! As a former wife, I learned to break torque on said pickle jars. Turn them upside down at an angle holding in one hand and whack them soundly with the palm of the other hand. If that isn't enough, maintain position and hit the edge of the lid on a linoleum floor. If you have a hard floor, use a pot holder to cushion the blow. Works every time.
I was an auto mechanic for 22 years. I used a torque wrench on water pump, head, intake, transmission, all pan bolts, and lug nuts. Everything else was by "feel". I am now a high school auto shop instructor. I have my students torque almost all fasteners with a torque wrench. I believe that using a torque wrench over a couple of years builds the "feel" that allows a professional for the most part to do his/her job properly without it.
+Andrew Kavanagh I like that approach. Thanks for your input.
+EricTheCarGuy say one word and get 10,000 drop on your back. for the others just using a torque wrench doesn't means you know how to use one... do you know when to stop?
+Andrew Kavanagh well put,I've actually worked with guys that could torque a bolt by feel to with in a lb or 2 after years of experience.The torque nazi bean counters from corporate would always get on their case about it until they'd bet them a few bucks that they can do it by feel.The one tech took quite a few Ben Franklins with this one ;) and while they got a pass they'd also encourage the new guys to use a T wrench as much as possible.
*****
while I agree the problem is that there are a lot of things that will get warped,crushed or otherwise possibly damaged by too much torque before this point ;)
+Andrew Kavanagh Exactly Andrew, you are teaching them well because, when they have no access to one they will get by in a pinch!
a conversation i had with my manager once:
Manager-"did you torque those caliper bracket bolts?"
me- "yeah"
Manager-'what did you torque them to?"
me-"tight"
Justin Clonts Not everything requires torque. Except wheels always torque wheels
@@ryans413 Yes but caliper bracket bolts can range from 60 ft lbs to 250 ft lbs on big trucks. You could easily snap a bolt on a small car or under tighten a bolt on a big truck. Worth it to look up a torque spec for any brake or suspension component.
nthnhansen Yes but for the most part conman sense plays a big part of its getting too tight then it’s probably way too tight right and if it’s still kinda lose then it needs more tightening. You make some good point those things you wanna torque probably but things like an engine bracket or a bolt that hold the radiator in stuff like that most of the time snug is just fine
The proper method is torque until the housing cracks, make sure no one saw then back an 1/8th
@@nthnhansen You'll have a good idea of how tight they are when you remove them since they're not easily accessible with impact.
I really love the idea of getting each and every bolt torqued exactly by the book. But there are only a few jobs where I will break out my torque wrench (Snappy Tech wrench for those that care).
Working on VWs, I use 1/4 drive a lot. As most fasteners are torqued from 10-20NM. It doesn't take too long to get the feel for 15NM on a valve cover nut.
But as I said on FB, I like to see rookie techs use a torque wrench for a while. It helps to make sure they tighten ALL the bolts, and properly. I have had to bail out plenty of techs for breaking or stripping bolts. Some times a torque wrench would have prevented that. Some times not.
Another point is, be sure your tools are in proper repair. I have seen several drain plugs loose due to a bad torque wrench. Just like with a scan tool, you can not blindly trust a torque wrench. Working on cars requires a little "grey matter" at times. ;)
+HumbleMechanic I can always count on your for intelligent input Charles. Thanks for that.
+EricTheCarGuy intelligent? I think you are in the wrong comment thread! :) HAHAHAHA
+HumbleMechanic in my head as I read you comment... It was in your voice haha! I agree that it's not critical to use a torque wrench in every case or every fastener, but doing cylinder heads, oil pans, lug nuts, major suspension work (besides those with castle nuts) I will break out my torque wrenches, as Eric said in the video, 12mm and smaller I just use a 1/4" ratchet, or a shorter (stubby) wrench, bigger fasteners I do have shorter ratchets to use, and I will NEVER use those extending ratchets (the ones where the handle can slide to make it longer for more torque) to run down any fasteners, mainly use that 3/8" one when a 1/2" breaker bar isn't needed. Just today, replaced an alternator on a friends 86 suburban, 350 small block, the entire time he kept asking "you gonna torque that" when there was no need, told him after 8 years you get the feel of proper/close enough torque, sure enough I looked up the specs, between 25-35ft/lb, pulled out my digital torque gauge and read 29,
+Aarons Automotive also did a thermostat on a friends 2004 jeep TJ as he refuses to work on for gear of breaking something but has also never turned a wrench in his life and don't blame him for that fear. Well torque spec is 13-17ft/lb, used a 1/4" ratchet to tighten them and digital gauge to make him feel better read 16, so again, you tend to get the feel of them, yes I'm sure I have over torqued fasteners in the past but never by a lot nor do I reef on them with a 1/2" ratchet. Use what's appropriate for the size, and I've found that 90% of things if you make them snug to where you think they're "tight enough" than give them an 1/8-1/4 turn extra and usually seems to be just great, even on my own vehicles I've never had anything fall apart from to little torque, and have yet to strip a bolt or cause a leak from over tighten, but will use the torque wrench when needed.
+HumbleMechanic +EricTheCarGuy
Experience builds muscle memory and one develops a "calibrated wrist" that is adequate for many fasteners and that same experience tells one when to breakout the torque wrench for when it is critical to be dead on.
Hey Eric , you're completely right . When I started in the trade about 10 years ago by the owner of my company . I was told what made a good mechanic is to know what not to torque !
i found saying “click” out loud helps reach proper torque without a torque wrench
Head bolts on the trucks I work on are 350 ft-lbs +90 degrees. And there's 28 of them. That's a helluva workout.
Eric, my dad used to say, "You never have enough time to do it right the first time, but you always have time to do it again". I do believe that in your case, as a professional mechanic, you apply proper torque by hand. However, I'm afraid that you're giving the novice the impression that using a torque wrench is not important all the time. What if your water pump leaks, no big deal right? How about your suspension bolts, no big deal right? How about brake assembly bolts, what could possibly happen? My point is, torque IS important, and everyone SHOULD use a torque wrench to tighten bolts where there is a spec. Of course, I'm a little biased, as I work for Snap-on as a torque technician and trainer. (and thanks for being a Snap-on customer) Torque on dude !!
as a technician of 12 years, at a point you learn to "feel the stretching of a bolt" it takes alot of expierence
+william fox Lots of over-torquing as well.
yeah and as one who studies neuroscience, its not as reliable as you may think. humans are humans. we aren't computers.
+Mingo Reliance Your point is taken, however you can't rule out the value of experience and muscle memory. I'm not saying my methods are perfect, but they work a majority of the time. For me that's proof at least that on some level I'm not wrong.
+EricTheCarGuy yeah. for the most part it isn't harmful. all I'm saying is that the human body is very interesting in the way it functions, and that we may not be as precise as we think. Muscle memory isn't something real, but that's a topic for a different discussion.
+Mingo Reliance It could also be argued that perception is something that's not so accurate, and subjective. By that logic the comments to my videos about torque would have even less value than me torquing things by hand. :)
When I did Honda J-series V6 timing belt, I wanted to do everything properly. So I torqued every idler pulley bolt, waterpump bolts, tensioner bolts, gear cover bolts and crank pulley (to 189 lb-ft!). Two years later and everything is spot on. I'm also happy, because my instructor told me that he had students do the same timing belt and they messed up the timing by one tooth. The engine was running so rough, they thought it was going to explode or at least that's what I've been told. So when I started my engine for the first time and it ran like a clock, my instructor was impressed and I hope more knowledgeable now that not every student is just a noob with a wrench hahaha
Ask a firearm fanatic how important muscle memory is. Same rules apply when tightening bolts. In automotive school one of my teachers was totally confident not using a torque wrench but wouldn't allow any of us to tighten almost anything without one. He wanted us to practice to get to his level of confidence... Great video Eric!
If you are not using a torque wrench you are disqualified from fanatic status.
NO TORQUE FOR YOU!!!!
+Danny Fasho No shit.
+ChinnuWoW Eric gets Torque'd off.
+Torpedomtb
But what's the apostrophe supposed to be for (to you)?
I'm a Kia technician. For the most part, I only break out my torque wrenches for internal components (i.e. Cam bolts, head bolts, valve body, etc). But honestly, the only thing I 100% bring out a torque wrench for, is head bolts. That's really the only thing that I feel requires it, no exceptions.
Why were you doing so many KIA head bolts.?
That alone speaks volumes about you as a tech.
You may break a few bolts now and again, but don't those mint snap-ons look spiffy! Not a scratch!!!
Once again: the voice of reason. Dealer Volvo and Audi: I do the same. I just hit the LIKE button at the start of your videos.
I maintained Army helicopters for over a quarter century. We were trained and reminded to use torque wrenches on almost everything. Some things lacked a torque setting (for good reason), but they were rare. It's true that you develop a feel for fastener settings after wrenching for many years. I well remember the Technical Inspectors getting hot on us new mechanics over simple things like panel screws. A common torque for the everyday panels on Bell Jet Rangers (we called them Kiowas) was 18 to 22 inch pounds. We quickly learned that well worn panels that had been removed and reinstalled numerous times, the torque value held true. But on newer fasteners, 22 inch pounds was not nearly enough to seat the screw head flush with the panel. After it became apparent that the torque setting was not enough, we were told to just run the screws down until an inspector couldn't get a finger nail between the screw and the panel.
I have a pretty simple rule:
Torque to spec whenever:
1) Bearrings or Friction surfaces are involved
2) Large surfaces are involved (e.g. Head-Bolts)
3) When critical warpage can occur (e.g. Brake Rotors)
In all other instances: Do it by feel. No car ever broke because the AC Compressor was not fastened with 45Nm....
How do you know.
Range Rover owners had cracks in water pump housing due to some mechanic thinking that was the right torque.
So customers paid for two timing belt jobs.
ALL BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE AT THE CORRECT PRESSURE
@@chris77777777ify fuck you
I color torque all my bolts eric I keep turning until I'm blue in the face
Eric, I am worse than a Torque Nazi, I'm one of Snap-on's torque trainers. Thank you for the nice comments about our click wrenches. I'm proud of the fact that quality products are still being built here in the USA. I work at the California factory where your torque wrenches were made. As a torque trainer, I'd just like to add a few comments. While I agree that an experienced mechanic like yourself can develop a "feel" for torque, most young mechanics today do not have your experience, so to imply that torque is not important is a mistake. Yesterday's 327 Chevy cast iron block was way more forgiving when it comes to torque compared to today's aluminum blocks and heads. Don't guess, do it right the first time, or you'll be doing it again...
Excellent points. I'm honored by your input, and yes, I love my Snap-on torque wrenches. Although it's been some time since I had them calibrated. I should probably get that taken care of. Thanks again.
My birthday is tomorrow, but I'll take what I can get. I've been watching your videos for a few months now. You sir, are awesome.
+Mykal Happy Birthday!
Not to mention listed torque specs aren't always right. Age and condition also effects torque specs. If you go around torquing everything based on a number off the internet you're going to do a lot of snapping and stripping.
If you get your torque specs from the manufacturer, they won't be wrong. When it comes to "facts" on the Internet my motto is: "Trust but Verify"!
love the Holden badge!
+OldSkoolFunkn80s haha, glad someone else spotted it
+OldSkoolFunkn80s Ditto, Had to watch it a second time though, lol.
+OldSkoolFunkn80s, I was just about to say the same thing.
RIP Fisherman’s Bend...
Good point about using the right size ratchet for the job. When I was a kid on the farm, I used 1/2" ratchets and breaker bars for everything. I was a little kid and needed a little more leverage. As I grew up, I noticed I would break bolts every now and a again. Finally I realized, I didn't need that 1/2" drive ratchet for a 1/4" bolt. There is still times I need that 3/4" drive stuff and a good cheater pipe, but after a while you do get that feel for how tight something is. Myself, I don't use a torque wrench much. Most repairs on farm equipment don't need it and there isn't a spec to look up. Now when I'm digging into an engine or something like that, then we get it out. Otherwise, snug them down good, then give them just a bit more.
In small engine repair in highschool I failed to torque the flywheel nut properly(Didn't use a torque wrench) twice and ended up with 2 destroyed shear keys. I had to re read that chapter and found out I forgot to torque the nut. Didn't help that the carb wasn't working properly and the engine was going full throttle when I was starting it. Engine would start screaming and then there would be a loud squelching sound.
As you mentioned the "feel" comes from years of experience. I torque all the bolts on every transmission I build because uneven torque can lead to covers or extension housings loading sideways when gaskets are used. Also gaskets compress as different rates so sometimes you have to retorque once a gasket settles into place. Even with a torque wrench you still have to develop a feel. Example I had a transmission case that had 2 cover bolt holes not threaded deeply enough. I could feel the bolt twisting but not tightening. So how do I get Snap on to let me demo one of those digital ones?
+GearBoxVideo Thanks for your input. I'll say this, no one that I know of is able to talk to Snap-on. They're kinda like the Vatican from what I've seen.
+EricTheCarGuy exactly ain't that the truth
Kinda is. I've tried emailing, calling and got in touch with several people. The chain of people I had to go through to get to the right person was silly and typical of all old school companies not understanding new marketing. I followed up with emails and Snap On never had the decency to at least respond and say no. In fact I left messages with local dealers listed on their bullshit dealer finder and never got a call back. I was looking to buy a very expensive Torque wrench. Same actually for Mac-Tools. Fuck them all! Snap On and Mac Tools barely respond on social media. I tweeted to them all as well. Including Craftsman. On the other hand got an instant response from Matco with a dealer contacting me the next day and had a Matco ETWB100A Digital wrench in my hand within 3 working days.
Bottom line.... when you are going to drop $400 to $600 on a tool you should expect instant pre sales support. If they are too stupid not to make that effort then they don't deserve your business. After all, how would I trust they are going to give any support after the sale?
+GearBoxVideo what i think guys is that those companies are so famous for their good quality tools and mechanics well know that they consider they have nothing to support you guys are spendin large amounts of your hard earned money and probably getting a tool that was made in china with u.s.a stamped on it and not even know it how many times has that happend if those companies don't care for their costomers well fuck em someone else is ready to take their place
I would say 90 percent of the tool companies won't even call you back. I tried unsuccessfully with SnapOn, Mac Tools and Gearwrench. Matco was pretty good at getting me a dealer but basically are reselling Gearwrench products at double the costs. The only thing you get for paying double is a somewhat a lifetime warranty
I like Jeff Bradshaw's way, he just goes 'click' when he thinks he's tightened something enough, he does it just to wind up torque nazis
Excellent point about over torquing wheel bolts - this should really be emphasized more as it is way more common than you think. I've shouted at a number of tire techs for sticking an air impact with a socket right onto my wheel bolts and holding the trigger until it stopped, even though the proper torque sticks were just feet away.
You're doing the right thing explaining this to people. I only go after a torque wrench when tightening down anything holding the engine together and very few other places. The rest is the quarter-turn/half-turn rule. (Quarter-turn for non-load bearing, half-turn for load bearing)
I use them mostly for internal stuff, for the rest I use my highly precise hand feel
Is that before or after the 8 hour arm workout?
"When the impact stops?" 4:53
LMFAO!!!
2003 f150 200k miles. The front wheel bearings are in the brake disc/hub with a cotter pin and nut lock. I have been assured on several occasions that they need to be torqued down about 100 ft-lbs when, in fact, the wheel needs to be spun, torqued down 30 ft-lbs spun again to seat the bearings, backed off 1/4 turn and then hand tightened. One shop tightened them with the former method and it gave me a clicking sound when slowed down into a left turn.
Eric you are sooo absolutely spot on with torque discussion. Thanks for bringing your perspective and videos. Keep doing it...
It's always interesting to me how those that can DO, and those that CAN'T criticize those that do.
I do everything on my car, because I'm not afraid to get the necessary information and (if needed) tools for the job.
The torque wrench gives me confidence as a hobby mechanic, so I can worry on other things...it's just one less thing I can potentially screw up.
For people who don't work that often on cars torquing down is highly recommended in my opinion. How should I "lighten up", if I never felt the right torque in the first place. So as you said, it's a matter of experience, which a casual mechanic (probably most of your viewers) simply doesn't have.
I agree with you. I use a torque wrench a lot right now because I'm learning what each torque setting feels like. I don't worry about small bolts much b/c I'm not very strong and I can get to maybe 30 ft-lb using a half-inch drive and all my strength. If I snug something up using a 3/8 inch drive, it's probably between 15 and 20 ft-lb. I would have to use a breaker bar to over-torque just about anything. I have to use a breaker bar to get my lug nuts to proper torque. Once you develop the muscle memory, you don't need the tool unless you're going for a lot of precision and accuracy.
I applaud your honesty! Anyone who wants to get a feel for how tight is tight enough, get some gasket material and some drilled flat stock. Put a piece of gasket between the flat stock and experiment with it. To tight is when you crush the gasket, not tight enough you see gaps. Torque specs can be wrong! My experience with older engines is on valve and timing covers is tighten to a little past full gasket contact which is less than recommended torque usually. To anyone just starting out get a good manual for your vehicle and if you have a question look it up.
l like a speed wrench for smaller hardware, and on a 3/8 ratchet with small stuff l grab one handed and choke up on it,
+Mustie1 I'm liking my T-handles these days. The more I do this, the more I seem to move back toward hand tools. I find that interesting. Mostly because I've seen a lot of older techs using hand tools. I always thought it made them slower. The older I get, the more I realize the wisdom behind their methods. Thanks for your input.
+EricTheCarGuy I like air for tear downs and for suspension/body work. For eng/trans I use air for removal and hand tools for assembly. UNLESS the bolts are going into plastic, then it's hand tools both ways.
+EricTheCarGuy do you think you would feel the same if you were working in a flat rate environment?
I think for me, I'd be too caught up in my own habits to even try it. But I am difficult like that.
+HumbleMechanic Yes! Dude, you have to try them. I'm so hooked. I look for places to use my T-handles now.
AWESOME!!! #youAREtheoldguynow ;)
When someone dislikes something, they are more likely to comment than someone who favors something. Making more negative comments than positive. I have enjoyed 98% of your content that I have watched Eric. I say 98% because I cant commit myself 100% to something haha. But I enjoy every video I watch from you. I wish you had the same vehicle that I do, just so I can learn more about my vehicle through you! Not to mention, your camera angles are always perfect (far better than the majority of other youtubers), you know what you're talking about, you're honest, you have great content, and quite often you're funny! Just letting you know I enjoy your videos, even though I, and I'm sure many others, don't comment often. Thanks for what you do!
10 years as a vehicle mechanic and 30+ as a aircraft mechanic. I always did torque on engine, transmission and brake critical items, cams, crankshafts, heads, bearings and then the rest my calibrated wrist took over. After a few years you get a feel to what the bolt and or nut is telling you from feel, is it really needed when you tighten the grille back on and the torque spec says 15 inch pounds. Thats slightly over a foot pound and really you know just hand tighten and be observant it will do a slight displacement of the plastic on the grille.
On a aircraft everything is torqued to spec using calibrated and certified torque equipment. It is simply you can pull over at 35,000 feet to fix a minor thing. On a car well you can pull over. Where I worked prior to my retirement from aircraft manufacturing we had to have our own tools until about five years before I retired. I had a full set of Utica/Bonney torque wrenches that I bought in the late 1970's and they were sent in to the calibration lab every six months to be certified. They were never out more + or - 1%. Thats acceptable to me. Those torque wrenches still reside in my personal tool box at home.
I think it makes sense for amateurs to pay more attention to torque in situations where a pro might not. There are situations where everybody is going to torque to spec (and in the proper order), like with head bolts. Then there are a bunch more situations where it's up to you. I know I've paid a ton more attention to torque ever since I broke a stud off of the isolator at the top of one of my front springs by over-torquing the bolt. If I had more experience, I might not have needed to torque it, but as an amateur, I made a mistake by not doing so.
I suspect many "torque Nazis" are DIYers who don't work under time constraints or have a bunch of experience under their belts to serve as a guide. To them, seeing someone guesstimate torque seems 1) improper and 2) potentially dangerous. It's not dangerous at all for an experienced pro, but they're actually right that it might be for a beginner. Bearing in mind that a major part of your audience is inexperienced, an occasional reminder for beginners to consider using a torque wrench might not be totally out of place.
hey eric how did you end up with that holden badge
+colj001 My viewers from down under send them to me.
+EricTheCarGuyyou should buy one! very good cars
+2chadreed2 they are not sold in the USA, besides they are just re branded chevys, daewoos, opels and isuzus (except for the commodore which is a true holden)
+colj001 yeah I know mate, I never said how. he could import one
+colj001 Maybe Eric is starting a dead car brand collection. ;)
I will say that feel goes a long way. I work in the AF building bombs for a living. we have a very specific bomb that requires 100lb/ft of torque on the lugs that attach the bomb to the aircraft. I can regularly hand tighten those lugs to within an eighth of a turn of the required torque without ever having gone over having built hundreds of these bombs. of course we go back and use a calibrated torque wrench because that's not an area you want or are allowed to violate what the book tells you. point is, the calibrated hand is real.
That is an interesting occupation you have there. Thanks for the comment.
Eric,
You are correct. Not every bolt needs torqued. I only torque select items such as yourself. I always add a note in my videos stating to check your own torque specs, and to check the manuals cause my videos are only for reference. Can not stand the torque happy comments.
Thank you Eric. As per your with or without torque wrench. Try to torque steel bolt to aluminum at 20lbs. The bolt / threaded hole will stretch at 15lbs and if you use torque wrench, you will not feel the stretch and helicoil for sure. You need to feel the metal on metal without torque wrench and experience teaches you. Note, correct way is to retap and clean out but still will feel the stretch and less torque maybe the only way.
Lol, I get those torque nazis too. I usually tell them that I use goodentight torque. Then there's those guys that get mad for me not mentioning torque specs in the video... They expect us to google it for their specific vehicle I guess;)
+BleepinJeep Yea, it's interesting to see what different people take away from our videos. It's also interesting to see what they expect from us. Funny what people will expect to get for free. Not saying I expect to get paid for every comment, I'm speaking more to what people seem to expect based on a video they watched on the internet.
+BleepinJeep Love your vids too bruh! I learned how to replace my double cardan joint in my Explorer thanks to you. 4 years as a tech and never dealt with one. It wasn't very easy to find with certainty either...you tell people lifted 94 Explorer and they're like a deer in headlights :-\. Good thing I know how to measure shit lol. Thumbs up and thank you to you both.
+EricTheCarGuy What, you're saying you won't come help me fix my truck in Canada?
+BleepinJeep I make mostly MINI Cooper repair videos. I know MINIs very well so I make an effort to put torque values where possible. If I work on another kind of car, I'm not going to put torque values because they can change even within the same model run and I don't want to be the target of someone's frustration for faithfully following what could be wrong values. All repairs are ultimately the responsibility of the guy or girl behind the wrench.
I’m not nazi but I do torque every fastener, including trim bolts and battery terminal bolts. If there is a spec, heck I will do it. If there isn’t, I will find it and if not, I finish the job and treat is as limp home mode until I find it again. It never is a bad thing to get everything to spec, you can never be too accurate.
Whenever there is a gasket or joint, torque to spec., exhaust shields... not really vital.
I try to torque as much as I can, but sometimes it's jut not physically possible (like my fuel rail fasteners).
Oblithian Good point. Sometimes only a wrench can fit in the space.
Thank you for this. Critical applications. Critical understanding. Critical tools. As for "feel," even experienced over torque fasteners. Especially the low torque ones. I love your going the extra mile about crows foot, and other extensions. They also effect feel. Tired, bruised, injured may effect feel. I had not considered T-wrenches to reduce toque and increase feel. Many over torque by moving too fast, miss the clicks, over torque, even damage even quality wrenches. Some will never learn feel., never follow instructions. Know thyself.
Last word on feel: I loaned one. got it back damaged, did not realize it until I went to use it. I now have a few torquers, but then it cost me time and money. But that feel on the head bolt tipped me off. No broken fasteners, no damaged heads. No irate customer. Thank you for serving. We know CZcams doesn't pay well these days.
As a tech since 92, I agree with your points. You learn a feel for a bolt/screw/ nut. By feel, by sound of the air tool, sound of the cordless tool.
As a flat rate tech, time is crucial. How much torque should you put on a 5.5 mm screw up under the dash holding a plastic bracket on a warranty job that pays .4 of an hour? You stop working on the car, get to the proper service manual, find the part in the proper section, look the spec up, get out the 1/4 torque wrench and then figure how to get the wrench under the dash, tighten the screw to 15 in-lbs. If your pretty quick it might take 5-10 mins to find the spec in the book, or net.
Or just zip it down with a 1/4 ratchet and move on.
Some things need proper and very accurate torque. 05 F-150 front hub bearings are a nice example. Too loose or too tight.. the bearing will go bad quickly, so a 700$+ torque wrench is needed or a torque multiplier (most torque wrenches go to 250 ft-lbs, this must be 295 ft-lbs)
Any bolt involed with a gasket, critical bearing surface or tight tolerance ill torque. The rest I use a german method of tightening called the "goodentite" method...
Also there are some very car make specific instances where torque is critical. A good example is on a mercedes benz M273 engine found in S550's, the valve covers actually have the cam bearing caps built into them, so if you improperly torque them you need all new heads on that engine... so just know your car brands and always read the proper instruction on fixing the vehicle.
Another Millennial, that's the "Fukkentite" torque spec...
i always wait for the crack, its the only way to be sure
Oh my god, I wish I could like this videos more than once. You're the man Eric. People make the torque comments on my channel all the time. I really laughed at your "lighten up!" comment, haha.
I have used many different procedures and many were not as the manual described . I always torque internal engine and transmission fasteners going into Aluminum , sometimes under-torqued and sometimes use a thread locker .Many head gasket jobs I did got torqued (to the old specs before torque to yield came along) rather that torqued to yield and I never had one come back or issue . Great video and I agree !
Like what you said "If I don't have the answer I will direct you to someone who does". I had a teacher in high school that drilled into us "It's not a matter of knowing all the answers, but where to find them." Roger Svoboda.
personally I like to torque as many bolts as possible. because the way I see it manufactures spend hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars each year on engineers that find out what torque those bolts should be done up too. they wouldn't spend the money if it wasn't necessary.
+DEMMERY11 but here's the thing, the bolt manufacturer has designed the bolt for specific applications, engineers make it look good on paper, most of the time it comes down to the manufacturer of the item to make it work, your torque values on paper might not even be the same as what it came from the factory as! I see it all the time, I'm on the manufacturing end!
+DayRider76 they are designed by engineers and made by manufacturing engineers, with the help of machinists and other various people. But, the torque values should come from SAE standard testing and/or real testing...........
@ 4:14 Eric, can you post the video on "Twerking Headbolts". Just kidding man, it gave a great image in my head. Love your attitude, and love your videos. Keep em coming brother!
+Revoe Lucion I'll give Miley Cyrus a call to see if she's available for that.
+EricTheCarGuy I swear if you bring that chicken butt on here I am leaving!!!! lolololol
+Anthony Bair If I ever went that far, I'd be leaving with you.
+EricTheCarGuy even that Bieber guy for back ground live music would be better than that Cyrus chick for 2 seconds... Unless it papa Cyrus, that I could handle ;)
ETCG is telling us is that an experienced mechanic can use good judgment to call it when it comes to reassembling. It is time consuming to use a torque wrench when required and it requires skill to know how much torque your applying by hand without a gauge. BUT he does mention that when doing torque critical fasteners he doesn't hesitate to take the extra time, head bolts, wheel nuts etc etc!
Nice upload Eric!
I agree with you. The only time I use a Torque wrench is for head bolts, auto gearbox sump pan bolts espeially if the gasket is a rubber gasket.
Years of experience turns your elbow into a torque wrench. You develop a feel for the nut or bolt especially when removing a rusted seized bolt.
Gr8 vid Eric 👍🇬🇧
Eric, I am a big fun of Your program, but I am sorry to say sometimes you passing to people wrong message. I am mechanical engineer, and some of your comments are just misleading people who are learning. Most of my life I spent working on aero-engines, to be precise I am stress engineer. So I would apply Finite Elements method to calculate strength of all sort of components and assemblies. Bolts are one of the most important components (if not the most) in machinery, and when you saying that torquing bolts is to evenly distribute pressure around mating parts my blood is boiling. I don't want to go over here in detail, but every single fastener is calculated to operate and have proper pre-calmp force in hot environment, in cold environment, it is checked against slippage, against crush stress, or event to check whether they withstand impact/crash, etc, etc, etc. Really if that would be only about ditributing pressure, do you think guys in manuals give you specific torque for every fastener. I am messing around cars, quite a lot, and I have met hug problems with setting full wheel alignment when some of the bolts wren't properly torqued. I have seen exhaust leaking due to wrong torquing (to big, not to small) etc... What I am trying to pass to you is that you are trying educate people, so please do it right, without such comments as in this video.
+Lukasz Gryczewski Thanks very much for your input, but I think you misread my comments. I believe I stated that torque IS important, but it's not something I do often these days. It was not my intention to belittle the importance of torque, but rather to illustrate the point that after performing repairs as a professional technician for several years, I don't often break out the torque wrench. I understand where you're coming from, and the engineering behind what you're saying, but you leave out the ever important factor of time. As a professional technician you're often working against the clock to make a paycheck. To torque every single fastener to spec in most cases would undermine your paycheck. What I am saying is that after a time, you can develop a 'feel' for how tight to make things, and also know when breaking out the torque wrench is important. In no way was I insinuating that torquing fasteners was irrelevant. Thanks again for your input.
+ETCG1 Cool Eric. I am happy we are on the same page, well almost ;) I would like You, as well as other technicians out there probably put a bit more interests in torquing properly bolts. Personally along 10 years spent in industry I have seen only one a guy who has been checked against torque wrench and always was +/-5%. So I am not saying it is impossible to have the 'feeling' but still is molto important at least to be aware why you should torquing all bolts per spec. On the other hand I hear your fair arguments of people working against time - however I am sure you agree this is when usually stuff goes wrong. Generally I am against it, I think we should more concentrate on quality rather than quantity, shame that people up at the top level don't get this. Backing to the subject, from an engineering point of view (as I deal with a lots of technicians on a shop-floor every day) can you please sneak a bit more 'professional' knowledge? You probably get by this time I am foreigner but I hope this will illustrate what I am asking. Technician will say hole, engineer (or good technician) will say bolt hole. I hope this make sense.
Again You are doing excellent work! All the best!
+Lukasz Gryczewski u claim you are a engineer but u can't correctly word a sentence.
+jamesthegammer Being able to "word a sentence" doesn't make one an engineer nor prove that one isn't an engineer. He made his point.
+jamesthegammer Good thing he didn't claim to be an English major!
I didn't even know torque wrenches were a thing you used outside of precision work (transmissions, engine internals, etc) for the longest time and I have yet to see a reason to. Most fasteners just need to be tight enough to not fall out and the acceptable torque range is between "snug" and "extra snug". The one time I've used a torque wrench was for the lug nuts on my car, but after the suckers started loosen up on me a couple hundred miles down the road I've stopped doing that. Now I just lay on them with the breaker bar and haven't had a problem since.
Hello ETCG. I have worked as a mechanic for the past 2 and a half years now. I still consider myself a rookie mechanic. I can relate to your comment about getting a feel for the right torque. Ive been torquing nuts and bolt without using a torque wrench.
Don't forget Eric you have been doing this a long time. just as scotty has been as he says you been in the field long enough you can almost feel the right Torq.
You should try working in aviation, the torques must be witnessed by an inspector. Yes it is important Eric. Thanks, love your videos. Sam. When torqueing a castell nut you have a range of torque, you start low and work higher to position the cotter pin hole or whatever safety device. I do understand where you are coming from I do not do all of this on my vehicles, but your so called feel is BS.
Depends on the circumstance a water pump fail on a car so what a propeller on a plane come off then you have a problem if a flange on an acid pipeline fails people die so again it depends on the circumstance and the risk involved in failure!
Well feel doesnt have to be that acurate but if its in 30% range some bolts dont really care that much. I know that although i like to torque with tw almost every bolt haha.
Yeah... you don't have to be a Torquemada about it. :D
LOL
Will you confess? No No No^^
+ETCG1 lol no you know they going to say. Why wouldn't you care to torque a customers car when they are your customers and paying you but yet would definitely do your own! Me personally I don't torque anything but then again I'm just a 'CARPORT' mechanic. Lol but will be doing my wheels now! Keep up the good videos your my go to guy with questions. All though I really wish you would work on a H3 hummer sometime. Cause I've been trying for months and months to figure out this cooling issue but nothing yet figured out. :-(
The last thing I was expecting was the Spanish Inquisition.
The only improper tightened/torqued bolt or fastener are the ones that come loose or snap off after you have tightened it down. Whether done with or without a torque wrench.
I agree with Eric, I used to always use a toque wrench, but after time I got the feel for it. I as well will still toque head bolts and high pressure components, but it's not always necessary for every job. But for a beginner, absolutely look up the torque specs until you get the hang of it.
You know in the UK it had become legislated that mechanics had to torque down head bolts and still have to have all wrenches calibrated every 6 months.
We had many garages that never did use a torque wrench on head bolts for years and some mechanic shops had returns and law suits against them for bad workmanship being the fundamental cause of the engine failure. Also note the failure caused accidents which resulted in serious injury and or death.
So they put in place a British Standard practice for garages to use torque wrenches and also a way that a court of law could fine and or prison mechanics and home DIY enthusiasts who were to blame for an accident due to their workmanship. Calibrated torque wrenches kind of became cover your ass mentality.
All that went out the window as well when Rover came around with the K series engine which does not have its bolts torqued down but angularly set being a stretch bolt instead of a clamp it tight fastener. Now many manufacturers are copying Rover in the stretch bolt design so a torque wrench is not that important any more but angular tightening is.
A torque wrench still has its place for suspension components and chassis to body mounts, bushings etc.
+Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) What have you been smoking? It never has been law that a mechanic has to torque anything down in the UK. In fact anyone can call themselves a mechanic and set up a workshop today and charge for their services. I presume you are talking about the K series Rover engine where they boasted about their high tech design and build (they, like a lot of manufacturing plants use robotic tools that individually sense the optimum point where tightening should stop) but that didn't stop that advanced design being badly bolted together and cheap parts used internally. They are known as singing kettles because of their frequency of blowing head gaskets.
cfook
I remember reading the court cases that were published after the case was over regarding a person taking mechanic to court over causing a motorway accident after the cylinder head blew off and was convicted to the mechanics workmanship for being the cause of this.
It was an old case many many years ago. I am surprised you don't know that tools across the trade in UK industry requires to be calibrated to spec and is legislated.
It is not illegal not to use these tools but if something happens and you are in court facing the blame then you will learn fast what it's all about.
Yes the K series engine is a prone HGF no doubt about it but it was down to not paying attention to the cooling system. Making alloy castings too thin, if they were machined from billet alloy the problem would not have been so prominent but it was cheaper to cast them and with casting it is weaker and requires you to cast it much thicker than if it was machined from billet.
Stupid mistakes across the board for sure but that said to say that only Rover K series engines suffered from this problem is unfair. Even Honda, Alfa Romeo and ford amongst others have had the same problem and it was generally almost always due to cooling issues.
So yes cheap parts used, yes mistakes made but all in all the K series engine really was well advanced and well before it's time. This design has shaped today's engines you can not deny that.
+Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) +Fireicer Cooper (f1r31c3r) You really should stop digging. "You know in the UK it had become legislated that mechanics had to torque down head bolts and still have to have all wrenches calibrated every 6 months." No part of that is true. Regular calibration is good working practice, shows professionalism, and is included in my ISO records, is it a legal requirement? Absolutely not.
"Legislated" does not translate into something you just made up.
cfook
I think you will find it is buried in the legislation and touches within hearsay criminal law amongst others.
It is what type of evidence is admissible etc etc.
It does not have a specific legislation defining this particular subject, it is how evidence can be placed before a court as to what is admissible as evidence regarding said allegations. If you prove you have followed all the good practice as to what is deemed acceptable such as calibrated tooling then this can be used as evidence in your claim or defence. It is one of them things if you neglect to do under certain circumstances you are going to struggle to prove your case.
If you are looking for a simple plain cut layman terms legislation about it then good luck with that, it is a minefield at the best of times.
I am not going into it any deeper on a Monday, you go do your research.
Remember it is said in a court of law, ignorance is no excuse.
don't know what part of the UK you live gagashire what shit
Beam style torque wrenches never need to be calibrated!
Matt's Shop they can’t do angle so very slowly click and beam are out and digital is in!!
CDubs HasIt digital suck display goes out
kray brother I’ve never had that happen so far with my TechAngles from Snappy (2 different generations 1/4” 1/2” 3/8”) .. calibration costs a TAD more at times, but not by much. I love them. Never going back!
There are a few critical things to keeping parts together and/or sealed. Clean surfaces, proper gasket/seal, and equal torque on mounting fasteners. Having said that, I rarely torque fasteners unless I feel it's necessary. I've been a professional technician for ten years now and I can vouch for what ETCG says. You get a feel for how tight a 6mm fastener is, or a 8mm fastener is after you've done it a few hundred times, let alone a few thousand times. You torque the critical stuff, you tighten by feel/experience on the non critical stuff. It's a time saving thing in the world of professional auto repair.
Very sage advice Eric, I heartily concur. I use my 1/2 inch sockets for - wheel nuts, cylinder heads and large fasteners - and use the 1/4 inch set more often than not whenever I can. The 3/8 inch set is handy for undoing stubborn fasteners in confined spaces and for nipping up a medium sized fastener that needs that little extra that one can not get from the 1/4 inch. I use a torque wrench for critical fastenings but not for much else.
i never twerk unless i have to
ive watched your videos for years now, and am getting disappointed by your later ones. so what your saying is, you'll torque your own projects cause you care but not your customers cause your working flat rate. That's just poor integrity. Making a video or not, you should care about the job you're doing no matter what the pay. I feel another RE: video coming on
+christopher fuller No Re: video, this is my response. I stand by my statements. I'm sorry you see them that way. I'm not saying I'm only going to torque my own projects, just where I feel it's warranted and in most cases, I don't see that it is. I'm not alone in this as most professional technicians aren't torquing every single fastener. It's just not practical or necessary.
Hardly any techs use torque wrenches. Besides, does a plastic engine cover really need it?
+christopher fuller I got say I didn't hear that, to me it sounded like he torques things that are really necessary to torque and the most recent example he had of that was his own transmission. I dont know about you but I dont bother torquing every single bolt in my car either. Even if I wanted to it would be very difficult to find torque specs for every single bolt, usually only the bolts people bother torquing are easy to find.
+EricTheCarGuy I'm only going off what you said. That's all we can do. I'm a tech as well, and I don't torque every fastener. it is like you said, as a mechanic you get the "feel" for how it should be.
+christopher fuller no one has ever died from a mechanic not torquing everything to spec minus lug bolts but that's obvious
A part of my routine, before putting a car into a garage for a service, is to remove the locking wheel nuts , and torque all the wheel nuts to the correct spec. When I got my car back from my last service, two of the wheels on one side were horsed up tight, while the other two were still to spec. From this I deduce that the mechanic only checked my brakes on one side of the car. I find this kind of shoddy practice to be quite common. I didn't bother complaining about it. They just won't get my future business.
I remember reading a reasearch paper testing about 1000 technicans their torquing skills using "gray matter". They were 25-50% off on dry and greased bolts and on different sizes. Actually they were measuring clamping force which is all about. They even showed how properly torqued fastener but not prepared properly (rusted, dry,...) was 10 - 20% off required clamping force which was enough to unfasten bolts on vibration table.
Unless ur building an engine....just tighten shit and move on!!!!
This segment exemplifies what bothers me about taking your car to a shop. As Eric the car guy stated, he doesn't torque all fasteners to spec, rather he developed a feel for torquing close to that spec, thus saving time. However; you the customer is charged on a flat rate basis, which means you're being charged for the technician to identify and torque the fasteners to spec. You're not getting that service you're being charged for. The technician benefits by reducing the time working on you car and the shop benefits by charging you for more than what is actually done to your car. Both technician and shop benefits at your expense. Don't get me wrong, I have unlimited respect for Eric, but it's not cool to charge for one service while providing a "lesser" one.
I remember a show about a restoration of an E-Type Jaguar, and when they were doing the re-assembly the host tightened the various fastener to a spec he called "FT", for "Fully Tight". If he had pulled out a torque wrench for every fastener, he would probably still be putting the car back together.
I totally agree Eric.
When I repaired Submarines in the Navy we Torqued every bolt to spec but peoples lives depended on our work. When I worked in the ROV industry we had Torque wrenches but only used them on assemblies where an uneven torque could affect the assembly in a negative fashion. In my experience it has always been over torquing that has been an issue, especially with hydraulic fittings. Part of being a good Mechanic or Technician is having that feel for what you are doing. I rarely got to see what I was doing anyway as what ever I was working on was always buried behind, under, in back of or just generally near impossible to get to anyway.
I always torque things that are important like Head bolts and crank rods n mains. Do I torque water pump and starter bolts.......hell no! You have to use common sense which really is not common at all. In many cases, a torque spec is supplied to make sure some heavy handed numbskull doesn't strip or break a fastener. Is it critical that a bumper bracket be torqued to a spec of 47in lbs? Fuck no! Is it critical that a new head bolt be torqued to a spec of 27ft lbs the first sequence pass, 54ft lbs the second sequence pass and then use a torque dial indicator to turn each head bolt an additional 230degrees for the third and final sequence? Fuck yes!
As a recovering torque wrench addict, Thank You! Yes I still torque lug nuts, and would torque head bolts if I had occasion to install a cylinder head.
I agree, overtime you learn to 'feel' how tight something needs to be, for me that learning curve was not without incident, but i soon learnt not strip out the threads on aluminium casings, and not to break wheel studs. But, like most there are some things i will always torque to spec, head bolts, bearing caps etc. And these days i do make a point of using the correct torque for wheel nuts, mainly to insure that the wheel can easily be removed if you get a puncture beside the road - nothing worse than finding out you cannot get the nut undone with the small wheel wrench that comes with the car.
Eric you should make a video of you tightening nuts by "feel" and guessing your applied torque. Then testing your "experience" by obtaining an objective measurement. It would give this video a lot more credibility!
One of my absolute favorite tools is a 3/8 drive speed handle that my brother gave me. The offset allows some impressive torque, BUT requires you to really work for anything over maybe 15 ft-lbs. Absolutely beautiful for spark plugs & other long-thread, low-torque fasteners!
I can do ~15 ft lbs with a nut driver. But I have very strong hands too. A good way to find that is to oppose the ratchet to a beam type torque wrench and see what all your "oomph" can generate.
@@snap-off5383 Yeah, I didn't really mean that it's _difficult_ to apply more torque with it; more that you have to put noticeable effort in unlike a ratchet, where you can just lean on it casually and - whoops! It's also really not an ergonomic shape for applying much torque, because you have to push the two grips in opposite directions to keep it from tilting.
My father was a machine design engineer. He taught me that a torque spec. is a best guess. The smoothness of the threads, cleanliness, lubrication etc all affect the actual bolt stress. If you are an experienced mechanic I think you can guess your best just fine for most things.
Perfectly spoken Sir. There is a time and place for your torque wrenches. When your making a living on flat rate it is just not feasible to torque everything. Experience and feel go a long way , knowing when to let off a fastener is a skill in and of itself. I think that when you work on one make of car you really start to know these cars in and out , that includes the fasteners too. Like you said Eric , break out that torque wrench on engine , trans stuff and for certain lugs. Im a KIA tech so I use a nice torque stick on my impact for wheels, every 30 cars or so ill check its accuracy against a torque wrench. I think you have made some solid points in this video Sir, Keep up the good work!
Doesn't that depend on the mechanic and the quality of experience? The saying, " Some people never learn." comes to mind. I know of studies of aircraft mechanics That indicate otherwise. Especially with lower torque fasteners. You pay your fare and take your chances? Problem? Just pull off to the side of the sky, get out your spares and tools!! I would say that the arena of competition and it's governing body determines the rules. In some cases life hands out the penalties. To compete and win means you must be found to have followed the rules. Like I said, pay your money and take your chances.
you are SOOOOO right on this. our experience and taught us when a fastener is going to break using a given tool. we would never make any money if we took a torque wrench to every nut and bolt. Critical fit surfaces, and rotational parts yes use it. but beyond that. my hands know.
Take a drink every time he says 'torque'. In all seriousness though, good insight on the subject. For the longest time (DIY, here) I didn't even have access to a torque wrench. I tightened down lug nuts by breaker bar alone until it felt right. Only recently did I get one in half inch drive.
I personally believe that it also depends on what it is you're tightening. Lugnuts, perhaps brake calipers or other hardware that's rather important should be torqued to spec. Other bolts like the ones holding my seats or gauge cluster in, not so much.
I also didn't own a pair of jackstands for the longest time, and only got them after I bought a pair myself. Now that I have these, I use them every time the job calls for them.
BTW; you're very humble. I like that.
I don't have a year of working on my car or owning a car and I got a feel for torquing spark plugs and lug nuts, i haven't stripped them or made it impossible to remove, haven't warped rotors, my tires havent gotten loose and ride off on their own and lug nuts haven't gotten loose without vibrations, so yeah, got a nice feel for them, I don't even own a torque wrench, just a 3/8 drive 1½ft long rachet and a 3 feet long breaker bar. For lug nuts I have a cross wrench or iron, not as much leverage as a breaker bar and a deep socket but it works.
It's a sensual thing for personal work. Can be emotionally and intellectually rewarding. Saves a lot of money!
I think we're all Torque Nazis early on when we're learning, and it really is experience that helps get over that hump. I've found over the years that torque specs are really for machined surfaces and rotating masses held down by more than one fastener. Like every rule, there are exceptions, but that's where experience comes in; being able to look at something and say "I don't trust my judgement with this, I'm grabbing the torque wrench."
I have a very simple method for tightening bolts. If the ft-lbs number is low, I tighten the bolt down a little. If the number is somewhere in the middle, I tighten the bolt down a bit more but not too much. If the number is high, I give it a good firm pull. If the number is really high, I give it a good pull with a breaker bar but not too much. Never once had a problem.
We have a saying in Dutch: "vast is vast", which roughly translates to "tight is tight" and it means that if it feels like leaning on something any further might break it, it's probably tightened enough. ;)
I have been working on cars for years. I have 2 torque wrenches and I rarely use them. After a while of doing the same jobs over and over again you get a feel for how much torque you can apply just with a regular wrench. I haven't had a problem yet.
Regarding t-handles, there's a video floating around of I think? RE Amemea disassembling a rotary engine. The guy is an absolute artist with a t-handle.
What the torque preachers also seem to forget is that torque values are based on clean, dry threads.
And how often are they clean and dry?
Ergo, even when torqued, they probably aren't torqued. You'll still have random values, based on some threads that are oilier (less resistance, therefore too tight) or dirty (more resistance, therefore too loose).
There have been a few times I couldn't get the torque wrench in a tight spot. I usually end up taking it to the vise with a wrench that will work in the space and actually 'feel' for a torque. Pretty good self teaching experience.
That's the beauty of DIY...you can take the time to strive for perfection but for most real world fixes you have to expect "good enough" unless you are paying perfection level rates. The real comfort of torquing is the added insurance that the work is done to such specifications that your less likely to have to revisit the repair or worry about having to drill out a broken fastener as a result of improper tightening as one drill out will justify the "should have" torquing of every fastener on a vehicle. This added insurance is usually not worth the time cost to most flat rate techs that haven't experienced problems with judging by feel.
Having spent years as an Army aircraft mechanic we had to torque everything. It was overused for sure and made repairs very slow, especially when you didn't own any torque wrenches and had to check them out from the tool shed. Your right, it's not necessary on all applications.
Good video/message and I can agree with a few points. FWIW extensions do not influence torque applied to a fastener. They may twist causing more movement of the torque wrench to reach a certain torque but the wrench is looking for a resistance. The torque given to the head of an extension equals the torque off the end of the bar.
Even torque on a part is one benefit. I think its also important when drastically different materials are involved. Bolt -vs-threaded material, softer metal always looses. Repeatedly over torquing drain bolt will eventually stretch aluminum threads.
Missed my birthday by one day! A trick I use when tightening small bolts is to hold the ratchet by the head instead of the handle to give less leverage.
Good call @ETCG1- I struggle to find it on the internet, but I once read a study comparing the torque values applied by experienced mechanics to the actual torque applied. The study found that experienced mechanics were within a few foot-pounds of the specified torque, with minimal scatter, consistently. Thus supporting what you've said - experience goes a long way. Good show mate!
I helped an airplane maintenance technician with his 280Z. He knew I worked for Datsun so he asked for help. At one point he said there must be a torque value for this. I said Andrew! It's never going to leave
the ground!