Torque wrench test! (Proof that hand position REALLY matters.) | Auto Expert John Cadogan

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  • čas přidán 21. 07. 2023
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Komentáře • 1K

  • @michaellee2746
    @michaellee2746 Před 10 měsíci +129

    I have used torque wrenches for more than 30 years in engine assembly, wheel fitting etc. and always just used it as per manufacturer's recommendation, so it was interesting to see how NOT following the prescribed method for use completely messes up the actual torque.

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 9 měsíci

      😂It is unbelievable how some of you believe what this Chanel is saying. A torque wrench once set to a poundage is no different than any solid breaker bar right up to the point that the detent clicks over. Then as soon as it has clicked it becomes nothing for its usage has ended. But the tool has no way of knowing where you hand is pushing. The only difference is the amount you will have to push and the amount of user error that can happen. But once the detent has clicked if you carry on pushing once again the tool is now just as any breaker bar and now also has no limit on how hard you can push. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

    • @jmodified
      @jmodified Před 9 měsíci +1

      @@petethewrist The measurement is of torque on the pivot near the head - you can visually see the wrench pivot a bit there when it clicks. The ratio of that torque to torque on the bolt is (d / d + d2), where d is the distance from the pulling point to the pivot and d2 is from the pivot to the center of the handle. Since d is significantly greater than d2 for any practical case, the error won't be too bad unless you really choke up as shown in this video. If d2 is one inch and the design/calibration is for d = 10 inches, then with a really long cheater bar you'll be low by as much as 9%, and choked up by half you'll be high by 9%.
      The tool has no way of knowing where your hand is pushing, but the combination of the tool and an actual torque measurement at the bolt does.

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 9 měsíci

      @@jmodified just read your first two line just so ridiculous what you think...the pin is there so as as at this point the thing clicks and there is a 3degees of movement so you do not go past the set torque. This set torque is in no way effected by hand position. But it is effected if you do not stop at that three degrees margin of error built into the tool. For after the click the wrench is as any breaker bar and has no limit. If you can't see this I really do feel for you. Await my coming video you will see the light. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

    • @jmodified
      @jmodified Před 9 měsíci

      @@petethewrist Either you don't understand how a click-style torque wrench works, you don't understand how torque works, or both. If you think the distance ratios don't matter, what would happen if you extended d2 (distance from center of head to pin) to 100 feet?

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 9 měsíci

      @@jmodified quite simply if the wrench was set to lets say a thousand feet pounds you would not need to use much pressure on the bar at a hundred foot but you would have a greater distance to move end of bar over. But this is simple leverage principles and has nothing to do with when the tool will click it will always click at the set feet pounds, until it clicks it is just as any solid breaker bar. I have possed this question in a forum I get payed for and so far out of the hundreds that have answered not one says it matter. The few of you that believe this guy can not have very high IQs at all as as most say on my forum replies, you have a bit of knowledge but you just can't put the whole thing together. Once the torque clicks, if you hold it just past the moment of the click there is at that point no effort going into your nut at all. You have three degrees of turn till the pressure start to turn the nut again. This is when it will over torque. The chaps making the videos on this subject must all be researching from each others video. Because to those of us with degrees in things like this it is a no brainer and we find it hard that the maker of the video in question even mentioned he believed it mattered where you put your hand. And as for him saying there is two different torques. Well he must be so brain dead if he believes this. Anyway this time of year I have so much going on but as soon as I can I shell post a video on my channel and it will be so positive you will see the light. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

  • @maccas70
    @maccas70 Před 10 měsíci +77

    Had never thought about the relationship of the hand to torque, but makes sense when explained! Thanks for the video.

  • @Paul.V.24
    @Paul.V.24 Před 10 měsíci +113

    Lovely practical test, that proves all the things discussed in the previous parts. Thanks for putting this online, now I can have a place to send people to when they disagree with the reality about this issue.

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +40

      It might not help, but you're welcome.

    • @bruiser6479
      @bruiser6479 Před 10 měsíci +5

      @@AutoExpertJC Maybe John can do a video on the vital role that a cold chisel and a broken brick plays in fine mechanical work?

    • @maifantasia3650
      @maifantasia3650 Před 10 měsíci +14

      Some of these people are so set in their beliefs that, no matter how many evidential facts are brought to the table, they will vehemently stick to their fallacious beliefs. They will even go so far as to back up their views with anonymous, misinformed sources.

    • @cme2cau
      @cme2cau Před 10 měsíci +4

      @@bruiser6479 Harley mechanic, eh!

    • @bruiser6479
      @bruiser6479 Před 10 měsíci +6

      @@cme2cauAbsolutely. With the Harley logo on the half a brick and everything.

  • @robames1293
    @robames1293 Před 10 měsíci +28

    I learned many years ago not to be dogmatic or disrespectful in my approach because it makes a further trip down Backpedal Road when you've been proven wrong. Good practical demonstration proving the twin pivot explanation.

  • @KWofPerth
    @KWofPerth Před 10 měsíci +38

    As an armchair science guy, I've learned never to argue with actual science guys. They know their sh!t, like it or not. Love your work.

    • @thromboid
      @thromboid Před 10 měsíci +2

      🙂 It can be fun to watch when people try to spring a "gotcha" on a specialist.

    • @gedavids84
      @gedavids84 Před 9 měsíci +3

      As a science guy, I love to argue with other science guys about hypotheses. But good experimental results are where the arguing ends. This was wonderfully conclusive. :)

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 9 měsíci

      ​@@gedavids84you have not got a clue about science or you would no without any doubt that that tool has not got a clue as to where the hand is placed.

    • @GeorgeTsiros
      @GeorgeTsiros Před 7 měsíci

      You do not have to be an "actual science guy". You just have to measure!

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 7 měsíci

      @@GeorgeTsiros there is no science to it. People simple do not realise the wrench works from the pressure resistance from the bolt and not from the force applies to the handle. The detent will always click at the same back feed from the nut no matter how or where you applied the force on the handle or extension. Most do not have the iq to see this. This short video says it all. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

  • @billsmith305
    @billsmith305 Před 10 měsíci +4

    Being a mechanic from years ago in England,, that's the way we used them, the hand grip is there for a good reason.

  • @larry_dickman
    @larry_dickman Před 10 měsíci +25

    I think that's called walking the walk and talking the torque.

  • @thromboid
    @thromboid Před 10 měsíci +6

    Here's a thought experiment that might help any doubters: imagine taking it to the extreme, applying the force at the pivot point of the clicking mechanism (the elbow, if you will). You'd never get it to click, no matter how hard you pull. Yes, it would be harder to achieve a given torque, but the tool's torque limit would basically be infinite.

  • @kelvynbettridge
    @kelvynbettridge Před 10 měsíci +95

    I’m quite looking forward to the 5 part mini series on how to use a shifter. Thanks John.

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +34

      250mm nut-fucker: excellent for self-defence. Just saying. (#NotAdvice.)

    • @marktaylor1777
      @marktaylor1777 Před 10 měsíci +6

      @@AutoExpertJC They were banned in our auto electrical workshop.

    • @PTS_Roller_Coaster_Case
      @PTS_Roller_Coaster_Case Před 10 měsíci +10

      Need to be specific. Left hand or right hand shifter?

    • @darrenwilkinson1742
      @darrenwilkinson1742 Před 10 měsíci

      @@AutoExpertJCthe full title is “thumb detecting nut fukker”

    • @owainbennett663
      @owainbennett663 Před 10 měsíci +5

      Confusion as he shows the left and right handed shifters 🤣
      That would be a 6 part series.

  • @JohnH1
    @JohnH1 Před 10 měsíci +18

    Once upon a time in a world long ago teaching the correct way to use small tools was a real thing...gone now. I appreciate the time and effort you put into explaining the dos and don'ts of using tools.

    • @kspau13
      @kspau13 Před 10 měsíci +3

      Also tool shops used to have knowledgeable people that recommended and sold tools. The world has changed, it's woke and doesnt care. You can't expect young people to understand tools if they are leaving school unable to spell.

    • @crazygeorgelincoln
      @crazygeorgelincoln Před 10 měsíci

      I saw the metalwork classroom at school once before they removed it. Replaced with sanding bits of MDF and acrylic.

    • @marke8732
      @marke8732 Před 9 měsíci

      I’m young and take umbridge with you’re comment. I probably understand tools far more bettered than you, I use chizells in woodwork and even sharpenned them. As for spelling, my English teacher said I was well sic and I’ve got humptene gold stars to proove it. Thinking about it maybe because my sharp chizzels were waveing in her face at the time lol pmsl

    • @JohnH1
      @JohnH1 Před 9 měsíci

      @@marke8732 :))

  • @andycoomber6159
    @andycoomber6159 Před 10 měsíci +20

    Would have loved to see an extension tube used to demonstrate fully the principle.

    • @m0rtifiedpenguin
      @m0rtifiedpenguin Před 9 měsíci

      You get more accuracy with a cheater tube! It’s easier to feel when to stop applying torque before you hit the stop

    • @ronburke2422
      @ronburke2422 Před 9 měsíci +3

      I have another thought, (also probably mentioned earlier)….Assume the wrench reads true if held at the grip. It’s obvious that the wrench will never click if you choke up all the way to the pivot pin near the head. In this case a very high pull force still makes a very high torque yet no click. The wrench would obviously be over tightening the fastener. As you go closer to the proper grip area the accuracy improves. My prediction is that if you add a cheater bar you will end up with a slightly undertorqued fastener as you make the cheater bar longer and longer the change will become tiny. I’d like to see the test repeated with a1 foot, 2
      foot 4 foot and 8
      foot cheater bar.

    • @davesparkz
      @davesparkz Před 9 měsíci

      ​@@ronburke2422He did already mention it in one of his other videos. There's no need to predict anything, John just proved what will happen.

    • @davesparkz
      @davesparkz Před 9 měsíci +1

      ​@@m0rtifiedpenguin Your obviously one of the group John was talking about at the very end of the video.

    • @jmodified
      @jmodified Před 9 měsíci +3

      The maximum amount you can be under with a long cheater bar is quite small. I just checked my 150 ft-lb wrench, and the ratio of pivot-to-hand-center to pivot-to-head-center is almost exactly 10 (19 and 1.9 inches). So the ratio of torque at the measurement point to torque at the bolt is 10/11. With an infinitely long cheater bar that ratio approaches 1, so you can only be under by at most 9%, and by doubling the handle length you'll only be under by about 4.3%.

  • @gazmurrell
    @gazmurrell Před 10 měsíci +4

    "Wrenchgate" I love it. Nice work John.

  • @grantdennis8678
    @grantdennis8678 Před 10 měsíci +5

    well, well, well, against all my reasoning the results do change. good thing i watched. Thanks JC.

  • @maxmax4081
    @maxmax4081 Před 10 měsíci +6

    When you explained that the relationship between the distance from the fastener to the hand and the pin to the hand changes, it all made sense.
    I would never have assume this was the case, though it seems obvious now. Thanks for sharing.

  • @richardorsulich4698
    @richardorsulich4698 Před 10 měsíci +5

    Before anyone starts about those digital torque adapters, i worked for a test lab and tested at a number of them and they are not only accurate but consistent, just don’t football them across the floor

  • @abowyer284
    @abowyer284 Před 10 měsíci +6

    I just went through the physics calculations for fun. It was interesting to see the error magnitude variance based on not only the ratio of socket center vs. pivot point but as well as the ratio of the inner bearing snap point to the force applied at the handle distance. My rough assumptions for choking up to 1/2 shaft distance (and taking apart one of my torque wrenches for measurement) provide error calculation between the errors you measured with the two wrenches.

  • @Hoop-pi6dp
    @Hoop-pi6dp Před 10 měsíci +41

    Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate this JC, not that I doubted the fact’s, but a visual demonstration should be helpful for the crayon eaters.

    • @gyrex
      @gyrex Před 10 měsíci +5

      *facts. Why are so many people nowadays so keen to use apostrophes when none are required?

    • @Hoop-pi6dp
      @Hoop-pi6dp Před 10 měsíci

      @@gyrex Just as some people are shit at golf or pin pong or brain surgery, I’m shit at English and can’t spell, so I blindly trust spellcheck to punctuate and polish my turd. Sorry I am grammar challenged, but I do my best.

    • @dougstubbs9637
      @dougstubbs9637 Před 10 měsíci +6

      @@gyrexbecause…crayon’s

    • @gyrex
      @gyrex Před 10 měsíci +4

      @@dougstubbs9637 thank's for your response. Everyone loves crayon's.

    • @sanityone649
      @sanityone649 Před 9 měsíci

      Crayon eaters…love it. Lmao. Good one.

  • @tomuchfunwithgas846
    @tomuchfunwithgas846 Před 10 měsíci +6

    Thanks for doing this John.

  • @MattysWorkshop
    @MattysWorkshop Před 10 měsíci +3

    Gday John, I glad you showed this demonstration, I’ve looked at a lot of the comments in the past videos and was blown away, you don’t put false misleading information out there, as you said it’s your credibility at stake, top job mate, cheers

  • @hoodyr6799
    @hoodyr6799 Před 10 měsíci

    Brilliant content, great series, and fantastically presented! 👌

  • @bbqcrew1
    @bbqcrew1 Před 10 měsíci +2

    Good on you John, thanks for doing this.

  • @tonyparker9571
    @tonyparker9571 Před 10 měsíci +7

    Thanks JC.
    Hadn't considered it before, but nor had I ever had cause to use my torque wrenches (Kincrome, pivot type) in anything other than the prescribed hand position manner.
    The easy proof in my mind is that if torque was applied closer and closer to the pivot pin, then a limit function approaching infinity would apply; Torque applied directly in line with the pin would never make it click.

    • @mattrickard3716
      @mattrickard3716 Před 10 měsíci +1

      That's probably the best explanation of what's going on for those of us who burn toast for a living and just watch these videos for the laughs.

  • @lyndonainsworth3445
    @lyndonainsworth3445 Před 10 měsíci

    So interesting, Thanks John. Thanks for setting up the demo. Pretty new to Torque wrenches, so good to understand the importance to use as per design.

  • @fluro2042
    @fluro2042 Před 10 měsíci +1

    I love the way you speak to your critics. If they don’t listen properly or read for themselves, perhaps you’ll have to get a whiteboard and draw them pictures.

  • @w0bblyd0inkb0ink
    @w0bblyd0inkb0ink Před 10 měsíci +2

    It is hard to believe John even have to make this video to explain this! Thanks for the very clear demonstration and great effort and patience!

    • @petethewrist
      @petethewrist Před 9 měsíci

      He has a very intelligent toque wrench it can tell where his hand is on the outside tube. Lol. I just can't believe how many people have not got a clue about leverage principles and science.

  • @affa5821
    @affa5821 Před 10 měsíci +3

    John is totally right from a reality point of view and backed it up with a practical experiment. This hand position issue happens to all clicky type torque wrenches. It doesn't apply to cam-over type torque wrenches and electronic torque-cell type wrenches and gauges. e.g. if John puts a breaker bar to the red torque meter he can hold anywhere and it'll still beep at the set torque. So now that I've given both side an out can we all just get along?

  • @maxagent86
    @maxagent86 Před 3 měsíci +1

    As it has been said: the only real laws are the laws of physics, the other laws are recommendations. Great job, John.

  • @Jack14432
    @Jack14432 Před 10 měsíci

    I just find your video John at the right time ! Thanks for great video

  • @stuartwood7252
    @stuartwood7252 Před 10 měsíci +6

    Great demonstration. I used the exactly the same set up to provide the specified torque readings for the bolts on a very rusty, cor-ten sculpture, out the front of a lawyers firm in the city. They wanted a pic of the torque on every fn bolt. The torque transducer, in conjunction with the set torque on the torque wrench gave similar readings, like you demonstrated. In the end, the lawyers covered their arses, and I went home looking like a Oompa Loompa.
    Great channel.
    Stu. Melbourne

    • @muzzthegreat
      @muzzthegreat Před 10 měsíci +1

      Jeez lawyers are nitwits - about anything but law.
      I deal [as little as possible] with a particular construction-materials company that is owned by a bunch of lawyers.
      They spend all their time carefully Dotting their Tees and Crossing their I's.

  • @garysheppard4028
    @garysheppard4028 Před 10 měsíci +2

    An excellent demonstration empirically proving your point that where you grip a length dependant torque wrench affects how much torque you apply to a fastener vis-a'-vis what the wrench is set to.
    Not to labour the point though, I would still assert that the majority of people who disputed your first video weren't stupid or wilfully denying reality.
    They just hadn't had it explained clearly enough to them.
    My two cents.

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +3

      No - disagree. They were stupid. Anti-stupid is a learned condition. We're too busy giving all the kids trophies now. It doesn't help.

    • @clasdauskas
      @clasdauskas Před 10 měsíci +2

      @@AutoExpertJC I teach teenage kids (Maths and Science), some of them do seem to be wilfully stupid at times, but often, with the best will in the world, their brain gets stuck on some detail and until they can get past that eg by a demo rather than talking, they can't let go of their misconception and will defend it.
      That's why your board demos with simplified diagrams eg of towing physics work well. And why this video will have changed some those minds (whether they admit it or not).

  • @dingopisscreek
    @dingopisscreek Před 10 měsíci

    Gr8 video JC. Illustrates your point perfectly. I wasn't aware before, but I would never even think of holding the wrench by anywhere else than the designated handle

  • @kenny240
    @kenny240 Před 9 měsíci +1

    I saw the first video a little while ago. And initially I was a little skeptical because I’m thinking that you’re applying torque to the same component so it shouldn’t matter, but could also see how I may be wrong and you may be right. So, that made me a bit curious to see this exact experiment conducted. Thankfully, you didn’t disappoint, and this video popped up on my feed. Great information for sure!

  • @freestyla000
    @freestyla000 Před 10 měsíci +11

    This never occured to me prior to using one, but from Part Uno it made sense. What I think the original video had was a statement (based on fact), but not demonstrable evidence for those without an engineering/physics background to understand. It made it hard for the unbelievers to grasp what was truely going on. It's like Galileo explaining the earth revolving around the sun to the unbelievers, but now here we are all enlightened (for some).

    • @nigelcox1451
      @nigelcox1451 Před 10 měsíci +3

      Nicely put. For me the original video stated facts, without explanation, and was a lot more vitriolic than usual, from the start, not as a result of feedback. That will have raised a few heckles, and prevents rational thought.
      This caused a bit of thinking for me, as like others, the pivot at the head is not where the torque is being transmitted to the fastener. The ratchet head is connected internally to an arm, which sits on the pawl mechanism, so that transmits the torque - mostly. The internal arm connects with the outer tube only after the pawl release.
      However, there will be some force at the pivot pin, which will increase as the hand gets closer to it. With a closer hand, that pin will put more torque into the ratchet head, by-passing the pawl mechanism. That bit was not explained in the videos, which I believe is why so many people struggled to accept the facts given.

  • @bruiser6479
    @bruiser6479 Před 10 měsíci +7

    Thanks for this video John. It was interesting to see how much impact incorrect hand positions has. Maybe you detractors are worried about their hands slipping off? I believe that can be a problem. A video on torque wrench calibration would be very useful.

    • @dylanwebb9584
      @dylanwebb9584 Před 10 měsíci +1

      Didn't know it could be called a Torque Wrench. "Hands" is being a bit presumptive, I might have thought.

  • @blake-green
    @blake-green Před 10 měsíci

    A great job on this video, this is likely the clearest demonstration of this effect that's out there.

  • @martinda7446
    @martinda7446 Před 10 měsíci

    This all deserves a subscription. Bloody marvellous. I was scratching my head after watching first episode..Luckily for me half an hour ago.

  • @gregwilliams7227
    @gregwilliams7227 Před 10 měsíci +3

    Thanks John for your masterclass on using torque wrenches. Whilst I was aware that the length of the level alters the amount of work (effort) done, I was under the impression that the dialled torque setting somehow disengaged the square drive mechanism when the required torque was achieved, preventing over-torquing (if that makes sense). Probably should have spent more time reading the documentation… Much appreciated

    • @Beer_Dad1975
      @Beer_Dad1975 Před 10 měsíci +1

      It's surprising how many people think that! If you choose to continue yanking on it after the click, it'll happily continue to continue to apply your efforts to the fastener.

  • @rayjames433
    @rayjames433 Před 10 měsíci +6

    John having being in a previous life as a NATA signatory for 2 years managing a metrology lab maintaining/calibrating a selection of some 160 different torque wrenches & torque watches, and running numerous classes instructing trades the hows and whys of torque tools. I have followed this with some interest, I must concur with your explanation and demonstrations of how to use a torque tools excellent work. It still suprises me how people do not understand basic physics how a torque tool works and think they are just some sort of fancy spanner and just chuck them in their tool box thinking they will still be good to use anytime without proper care

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +6

      Hey Ray, thank you very much. When I was training as an engineer I worked for a year in a NATA registered lab - destructive testing, etc. It was a total blast, and I learned a lot. Broke heaps of crap, too...

    • @rayjames433
      @rayjames433 Před 10 měsíci +4

      @@AutoExpertJC ha ha destructive would have been heaps of fun mine was looking after torque gear and gauges yes you learn heaps when you see the other side of how things work and the importance of testing

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +2

      Agreed. Experimental control, process control, calibration, putting your nuts on the line with every signature...
      Crashlab would be even more fun.

    • @markh.6687
      @markh.6687 Před 10 měsíci

      Well, it's a fancy spanner, but a very calibrated one at that, and not supposed to be used to loosen fasteners either. But somewhere out there a jobbo has loosened nuts with his torque wrench....

    • @rayjames433
      @rayjames433 Před 10 měsíci

      @@AutoExpertJC now you're talking that would be great fun

  • @allanbarton5888
    @allanbarton5888 Před 10 měsíci

    Hi John
    A great and informative series of videos 😊

  • @jackojacko3545
    @jackojacko3545 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Thanks John I have been informed and enlightened well done

  • @MrKldenton
    @MrKldenton Před 10 měsíci +4

    Never in any doubt you were correct John and thank you for such a detailed series of videos, though I was always told never to use a drive change on a torque wrench when I was younger. Still something I adhere to, just grab the correct socket with the correct drive for the torque required. That said, your smaller wrench with the drive change was still in the same degree of accuracy and repeatability as the larger one it seemed. I'm sure you're now well and truly sick of torque wrenches so I'll probably just buy myself one of these little torque testing jiggers and have a play myself to test other old wive's tales that surround torque wrenches and their use.

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +5

      The 1/2 to 3/8 adapter makes no difference to the applied torque.

    • @cristianstoica4544
      @cristianstoica4544 Před 10 měsíci +1

      ​@@AutoExpertJCTrue. You can stack up ten adapters and the torque will not change .. if they all stay collinear and at 90 degrees to the wrench. In practice, this is hardly the case even with one adapter

  • @davepeters4955
    @davepeters4955 Před 10 měsíci

    Great demonstration!

  • @TOMA21207
    @TOMA21207 Před 10 měsíci

    Love your videos man, don't even listen to ones that "think" they know everything. Keep up making good content as always. Thanks

  • @lithgowlights859
    @lithgowlights859 Před 10 měsíci +8

    I actually expected larger differences, and for many situations an increase of 5-10% is not likely to cause issues, but is some critical cases it may well cause serious problems, so thanks for this excellent review.

    • @timh6845
      @timh6845 Před 10 měsíci +6

      If you are working on motorcycles where everything is aluminium or other alloys, you will learn painful and expensive lessons of over tightening…

    • @Rollin8.0
      @Rollin8.0 Před 10 měsíci +3

      The increase in itself is not necessarily the biggest issue, but the difference can be.
      Eg: if you're torquing head bolts and you hold your hand in several different places on the wrench as you go through the 14 or so head bolts you'll have a different torque on each one, which 'can' cause issues. Not a guarantee, but a possibility.

    • @tj5020
      @tj5020 Před 10 měsíci +4

      There are a couple of reasons why you get a 5% - 10% increase when you have your hand halfway down the shaft, not a factor of 2 difference. The first is JC doesn't have the lever lengths quite right. The outer tube lever is the distance from the pin pivot by the head, to your hand. The other lever in action is from the 1/2" drive center to the detent mechanism. The detent mechanism is not where your hand is but it is a lot closer to the pin pivot. Thus what is happening is you are shifting the proportion of force applied from all being applied through the detent mechanism when your hand is on the handle, to some of the force being applied through the pin pivot. But because inner lever length is a lot shorter than the outer lever length, you don't see a massive effect until your hand gets to the head side of the detent mechanism.
      The second reason JC doesn't mention: When your hand is acting on the handle, the outer tube acts like a cantilevered beam. This applies basically no additional compression to the detent stack, in fact it tends to unload the detent stack when you apply force with your hand to the handle. However when your hand moves towards the center of the outer tube, the outer tube is now acting as a simply supported beam. This loads additional compression into the detent stack and increases the force required to trip the mechanism.

    • @Rollin8.0
      @Rollin8.0 Před 10 měsíci

      @@tj5020 I actually theorised about your second point being a possibility in this comment section and jc shut me down :/
      I think your first point has merit too.

    • @tj5020
      @tj5020 Před 10 měsíci +1

      @@Rollin8.0 yeah, well JC doesn't know everything. A simple free body diagram shows the bending state changes as you move where the force is applied to the outer tube

  • @TonyWhite22351
    @TonyWhite22351 Před 10 měsíci +9

    Would have been good to see the results attained by the addition of an extension John !

    • @0Aus
      @0Aus Před 10 měsíci +1

      why? The point was made clearly.

    • @kspau13
      @kspau13 Před 10 měsíci

      It would show the exact reverse. This is where a little imaginative thinking comes into play.

    • @cmoneyuser
      @cmoneyuser Před 10 měsíci

      It won't make a difference, the length of the handle is what causes the change in applied force, not the distance from the ratchet head to the socket. He actually did show it using a small extension, the 1/2 to 3/8 adapter is exactly that. It would only change if the extension used was not a solid bar, but something with another pivot point.

    • @simonilett998
      @simonilett998 Před 10 měsíci

      @@cmoneyuser I think @TonyWhite22351 means an extension pipe added to the length of the handle end, not a socket extension added between the socket and ratchet head👍

    • @cmoneyuser
      @cmoneyuser Před 10 měsíci

      @@simonilett998 I thought the same initially, but that's already been shown. John moves his hand closer & the amount of applied torque increases, so if he was to move his hand further away / add an extension bar, it would apply less torque. I assumed the OP understood this & was thinking deeper, perhaps not.

  • @user-kh2yl6nn3l
    @user-kh2yl6nn3l Před 10 měsíci

    No bullshit, John's right . I learned this when I was a kid from my dad . And by golly it's still holds water today . :)

  • @paulputnam2305
    @paulputnam2305 Před 10 měsíci

    You ARE a Doctor of Science. Great Job and Thank You!

  • @chrisblood7395
    @chrisblood7395 Před 10 měsíci +6

    Well... I already knew you were correct, but it's always nice to see it for sure. Couple of things, though;
    1. Yeah, it would have been nice to see it with a cheater bar - and maybe with a crow's foot. Not necessary, but.. nice. And,
    2. Ratz... now I'm wondering how far off my torque wrenches are. I'll have to spring for one of those torque transducers now...

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +5

      I thought the video was getting too long even with what I already had.

    • @darrenwilkinson1742
      @darrenwilkinson1742 Před 10 měsíci +3

      Plus he did it in all one take! Bravo

  • @RealButcher
    @RealButcher Před 10 měsíci +3

    Damn, now I have to see part 1 and 2 first ... damn you John 😂

    • @RealButcher
      @RealButcher Před 10 měsíci +1

      Seen them... it was fun and I learned something.❤

  • @newage3
    @newage3 Před 10 měsíci +1

    That was great John, never knew all the fine details about the ubiquitous torque wrench, seeing a real world test with figures you can see to prove the hidden maths was fantastic.

  • @janstafford1490
    @janstafford1490 Před 10 měsíci

    Thanks for that, bringing a better understanding, never doubted you just didn’t understand, respect.

  • @australianoz
    @australianoz Před 10 měsíci +4

    I've been using torque wrenches since I was a teenager, and I'm 56 now and can't understand the fact that there is a handle for a reason and some dimwits don't use it. It's there for a physics reason, ffs. Thanx JC, ripper vid.

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +5

      I agree. Gotta ask yourself why they put all that knurling there...
      Thank you for watching.

  • @chrisa2061
    @chrisa2061 Před 10 měsíci +4

    I’ve got an arts degree and even I can understand this!

  • @ridingwithpat
    @ridingwithpat Před 10 měsíci

    Thanks John, I remember reading this information on the Norbar torque wrench I purchased 30 years ago when I was working as a mechanic, it's good to have a reminder. Cheers, Patrick Sparks

  • @michaeldallimore8590
    @michaeldallimore8590 Před 10 měsíci +8

    Looks like those torque transducers are reasonably accurate and might be a good substitute for a torque wrench when tightening wheel nuts out in the bush. Thanks for the video.

    • @clasdauskas
      @clasdauskas Před 10 měsíci +4

      Until the battery goes flat after sitting in your tool box for 6 years...

    • @MrPoopnoddy
      @MrPoopnoddy Před 10 měsíci +2

      @@clasdauskas Yeah...I have one of those transducers for various reasons and I take the batteries out and leave them in the pouch when not in use. They never turn off, the off button only turns off the LCD display but everything is still running in the background. Ditto digital calipers/micrometers...little bastards keep eating batteries.

    • @kiickinballistics
      @kiickinballistics Před 10 měsíci

      …great opportunity for the venerable Bluetti AC180, so you can torque transduce all day long…and a portion of the evening.

    • @clasdauskas
      @clasdauskas Před 10 měsíci

      @@MrPoopnoddy Me too, and still got caught a couple of days ago - put my battery in the calipers and it was flat

    • @montestu5502
      @montestu5502 Před 10 měsíci

      @@clasdauskas- I put the battery blocking plastic tab back in after using it to disconnect the battery.

  • @MattBlack6
    @MattBlack6 Před 10 měsíci +6

    Waiting for the people who said how wrong you were to weigh in on this one. They should put their hands in the right place, aka up, and admit they were wrong.

    • @dylanwebb9584
      @dylanwebb9584 Před 10 měsíci +3

      Can I assume you mean: "Hands above the Table, Boys"?

    • @MattBlack6
      @MattBlack6 Před 10 měsíci +1

      @@dylanwebb9584 always good manners to keep one's hands above the table.

    • @markh.6687
      @markh.6687 Před 10 měsíci

      I think some of them are attempting to remove their craniums from their buttocks about now.

  • @MrMarkguth
    @MrMarkguth Před 10 měsíci

    Thankyou John, I wish I had a tafe teacher like you back in the day

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +1

      How long do you reckon I would last as a teacher? 5 minutes?

  • @user-lt7xe2gt2k
    @user-lt7xe2gt2k Před 10 měsíci

    Terrific video, thanks.

  • @orangejuicepony6881
    @orangejuicepony6881 Před 10 měsíci +2

    I have an overwhelming desire to go buy a torque wrench now, then I’m going to go around House torquing shit 😂

    • @markh.6687
      @markh.6687 Před 10 měsíci

      I bought one but have yet to use it. Look out lug nuts, here I come!

  • @oldmatesgarage2425
    @oldmatesgarage2425 Před 10 měsíci +2

    I see a downward lean on the socket when you choking it. Can one use only a torque transducer only? (I get the click effect advantage), maybe this can be Episode-4 (may the torque be with you).

    • @markh.6687
      @markh.6687 Před 10 měsíci

      "The Torque is strong with this one."

  • @Chillertek
    @Chillertek Před 10 měsíci

    Can't argue with them John, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
    Great series of videos by the way. A+

  • @ortnerendre4197
    @ortnerendre4197 Před 10 měsíci +2

    I slept on it for a day and in the morning: Okay, I think I got it. Due to the design of the tool, the torque is measured on a different force arm than when the torque is applied to the screw. The ratio of these force levers is a given value when holding the grip, and the tool is calibrated for this. If you hold it somewhere other than the grip, the ratio of the power levers changes, and the torque exerted on the screw also changes when it is clicked. I admit, I was wrong, but it's a catchy topic, I studied mechanics a long time ago, but I always wanted to understand things, I didn't believe it until then :)

  • @onecookieboy
    @onecookieboy Před 10 měsíci +4

    I'm not to big to eat humble pie, thanks John for following through on this, it didn't make sense to me from your initial explanation but the proof is in the pudding. The only thing I would add is that whenever I use a torque wrench I stabilise the head with my left hand and pull on it with my right, and often use an extension (as short as possible), do you think that would effect the result?.

    • @gbsailing9436
      @gbsailing9436 Před 10 měsíci

      Yes he explained that it would in Part 2. If you want to add an extension bar onto your torque wrench, then you need to use a very specific type of wrench! Namely a Warren & Brown Deflecting Beam Torque Wrench, this has NO pivot in the mechanism and therefor is unaffected by where a hand or activation length is applied. See the type here: www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FsfPJlD3QqW8%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&tbnid=w1qh7LLnfrqv6M&vet=12ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfPJlD3QqW8&docid=0R_PbyWw8PLKMM&w=1280&h=720&itg=1&q=split%20beam%20torque%20wrench%20designs&ved=2ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ

    • @tonynicholson3328
      @tonynicholson3328 Před 10 měsíci

      Probably should have clarified extension to the handle or extension to the head.

    • @onecookieboy
      @onecookieboy Před 10 měsíci

      @@tonynicholson3328 The head, I don't know any reason why anyone would add an extension to the handle because the wrench would never handle that much torque.

    • @hectorkidds9840
      @hectorkidds9840 Před 10 měsíci

      Stabilising will not change anything. If you add an extension to the handle to make hitting big numbers easier, yes that changes everything, you will be under the specified torque. If you mean an extension between torque wrench and socket, like when reaching in to get to spark plugs, then that's fine, because that extension is on the same axis as the fastener and the head of the wrench.

    • @tonynicholson3328
      @tonynicholson3328 Před 10 měsíci

      @@onecookieboy Completely agree, however having no reason to extend the handle doesn't mean some genius wouldn't.

  • @johnrgoodman
    @johnrgoodman Před 10 měsíci +4

    I don't understand WHY anyone would hold the wrench in the wrong way

    • @markh.6687
      @markh.6687 Před 10 měsíci

      People make mistakes trying to apply torque, from putting one hand on the handle and one on the shaft, to not having workroom to get a grip on the handle, to being tired and in a hurry to finish the job.

  • @tomthomasjohnpaulmooremawr3014

    Thankyou,. I had watched the first video that got me to two others of yours with great detail. I now have no doubt what so ever that this is knowledge that can be shared. On the non loosening of the sping i still need some convincing, as an amateur i'll still reloosen the thing in six months when i reuse it. Thanks again.

  • @willumwhitmore9419
    @willumwhitmore9419 Před 10 měsíci

    well done John.

  • @davidholmes3323
    @davidholmes3323 Před 10 měsíci +4

    So these things come with an instruction on how to use them correctly. Pretty easy to read and follow. It is the same as the owner's handbook in most cars. The manufacturer probably knows more than "Old mate beard stroker"

    • @fredintas6596
      @fredintas6596 Před 10 měsíci

      What? You mean they're supposed to read the f'ing instructions/manual now?

  • @FuManchu5ltr
    @FuManchu5ltr Před 10 měsíci +5

    You can see the two pivot points working separately as the torque wrench reaches its torque setting.
    John’s point, actually it’s not John’s point, It’s just how physics is, is made.
    This series would also be a good colab with @TorqueTestChannel.
    Their tests would only reflect these.

  • @MajorDrama1
    @MajorDrama1 Před 4 měsíci

    Great to see some broader discussion/explanation of issues re torque wrench use - Had no idea! And very important to me as dialing in various critical motorcycle fasteners

  • @PotatoBodo
    @PotatoBodo Před 10 měsíci

    Just want to say I am so glad you posted this video and almost certain others will agree also. Just bought a torque wrench and knowing what not to do is definitely worth watching the videos. We can all read the manufacturer's requirements but its the small things like your video that really sticks in the mind. Thank you good sir 🫡

  • @NeilConnor
    @NeilConnor Před 10 měsíci +3

    Next on Flat Earth Nightly News: "But you didn't use FtLb so your argument is invalid"

  • @davidshepherd3365
    @davidshepherd3365 Před 10 měsíci +11

    The takeaway from this experiment is that the location of hand placement on your tool is crucial!

  • @rayjulien4739
    @rayjulien4739 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Great demo! I remember my instructor saying the more accurate the operator was (hand grip/ 90 degrees to the lever/ consistent with every bolt) the more accurate the torque wrench will be!

  • @gregclaydon6727
    @gregclaydon6727 Před 10 měsíci

    Brilliant, thank you. I have been using tools eg torque wrenches all my life and I didn’t know about this, thanks so much again for your informative video.. I will pass this on..

  • @tonybennett638
    @tonybennett638 Před 10 měsíci +2

    Too much torque mate...

  • @chriskennedy7534
    @chriskennedy7534 Před 10 měsíci +2

    A highly unlikely situation to ever arise.
    Only a few brake, suspension or drive line fasteners in difficult to access places under a vehicle (thank you engineers) requires a torque wrench
    You had to really choke up on the handle to get a % that makes much of a difference
    "I'd suggest " they'd still be within the bolts safety margin.
    Interesting, but not a life altering topic.

    • @clasdauskas
      @clasdauskas Před 10 měsíci +1

      And .. he did actually say something like that in one of the previous videos ie better to be a bit over than under - with a disclaimer that this was not license to go completely nuts.

    • @Cotterpin_Doozer
      @Cotterpin_Doozer Před 10 měsíci

      That shorter wrench made a huge difference to over torquing from 50 when held correctly to 70 when held in the middle.

    • @nickmaguire4914
      @nickmaguire4914 Před 10 měsíci

      Aaaand there he is

    • @chriskennedy7534
      @chriskennedy7534 Před 10 měsíci

      @@Cotterpin_Doozer Yes, interesting
      But notice he never attempted to explain why that might be the case

    • @chriskennedy7534
      @chriskennedy7534 Před 10 měsíci

      @@nickmaguire4914 👋

  • @spelunkerd
    @spelunkerd Před 10 měsíci

    I love videos that expand my understanding of how clicker style torque wrenches work. Today I spent a little time working out the math, which clearly verifies your practical observation that actual torque is higher if you shorten the lever arm, and lower if you lengthen it. Occasionally there are situations where one can't get a torque wrench into a tight space, in which case one option is to use a "torque extender", which attaches from the head of the torque wrench to the head of the nut. For example in the GM service manual for the 4L60 transmissions, such an extender is used to apply accurate torque on the adjustment nut for the front band. A simplistic approach is to use the ratio of the new lever arm to old lever arm length to get the ratio of the new torque to old torque, and that is still accurate to about 10% (within tolerance for the application). However to do this more accurately, the old lever arm length should be the distance to the clicker pivot point, not to the center of the head. Back of the envelope calculations verify that as well. For better accuracy one could use the style of torque tool you showed in the video, where the measuring device sits right on the head of the nut.

  • @Project_88
    @Project_88 Před 8 měsíci

    Really good and credible job!

  • @avanap8096
    @avanap8096 Před 10 měsíci +6

    Funny, you are still arguing with those with special needs.
    It's like trying to convert someone's religion. No amount of reasoning will do it.

  • @Bobtubeau
    @Bobtubeau Před 10 měsíci +3

    Mate, what are you even torquing about?

  • @ianpatmore6324
    @ianpatmore6324 Před 10 měsíci

    Thank you for the videos, very informative.

  • @johnnylinoleum
    @johnnylinoleum Před 10 měsíci

    Great job!

  • @troymckibbin528
    @troymckibbin528 Před 10 měsíci

    I like to think you are full of facts and happy to share them.

  • @gregind01
    @gregind01 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Oh John, how has this morphed from a single video to become a trilogy?! Clearly there are plenty of people out there who skipped the "day" they taught science in school, yet still try to argue with the experts!

  • @georgeliquor2931
    @georgeliquor2931 Před 3 měsíci

    Very enlightening, thank you

  • @ianmac2963
    @ianmac2963 Před 10 měsíci

    Thank you JC

  • @confuzsays7196
    @confuzsays7196 Před 10 měsíci

    Nice work mate

  • @martinsouthwell1690
    @martinsouthwell1690 Před 10 měsíci

    Thanks John, learnt heaps 👍

  • @aron2199
    @aron2199 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Excellent video John - I must say I never gave a second thought on the subject and I have at times not place my hand on the centre of grip… I will say for practicality, if one ‘s hand has slightly deviated from the correct spot , it might still within margin of error for the torque spec.
    It’s good to see why must aim to place your hands at the designer designed it.

  • @plasma06
    @plasma06 Před 10 měsíci

    A valuable demonstration, good to know

  • @stephenpartridge686
    @stephenpartridge686 Před 10 měsíci

    I honestly thought this wouldn't have been the case, great experiment, makes it quite clear!!!

  • @grisner
    @grisner Před 10 měsíci

    I've known this for years, I can't believe others don't! Thank you for pointing this out.

  • @Robert-cu9bm
    @Robert-cu9bm Před 10 měsíci

    Amazing, would never have thought.

  • @larrybe2900
    @larrybe2900 Před 10 měsíci

    Thank you for the demonstration. I like facts though I appreciated understanding them.

  • @sebastianmessina31
    @sebastianmessina31 Před 10 měsíci

    Thanks John. I use a torque wrench on the wheel nuts of my car & 4x4. Wrapped to know about holding the wrench correctly and consistently.👏👏👏👏

  • @jasonmc4460
    @jasonmc4460 Před 10 měsíci +2

    Excellent work, did you know on Friday this was going to blow out

    • @AutoExpertJC
      @AutoExpertJC  Před 10 měsíci +5

      No - I thought it would be uncontroversial. I thought some people wouldn't know; didn't expect the dumb-shit backlash at all.

    • @fishndive1961
      @fishndive1961 Před 10 měsíci +1

      @@AutoExpertJC I don't believe you. I think you got exactliy what you were hoping for. 😉

  • @mnkybndit
    @mnkybndit Před 10 měsíci

    Now I'm wondering how many times I've done this while servicing my cars and bikes. Thanks for the weekend course, John.

  • @billmcmaster7909
    @billmcmaster7909 Před 9 měsíci

    Thanks so much for this info John. I think I've always used a torque wrench properly however, I will definitely use it the right way now.
    Cheers Bill

  • @mathewjentsch6519
    @mathewjentsch6519 Před 10 měsíci

    Great torque John thanks awesome

  • @Deuce1550
    @Deuce1550 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Very cool video. I've never thought to use a torque wrench incorrectly before. But often place my other hand gently on the head of the wrench, assuming light pressure to steady it was not affecting the torque result on the fastener.