Torque wrench test! (Proof that hand position REALLY matters.) | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2023
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I have used torque wrenches for more than 30 years in engine assembly, wheel fitting etc. and always just used it as per manufacturer's recommendation, so it was interesting to see how NOT following the prescribed method for use completely messes up the actual torque.
😂It is unbelievable how some of you believe what this Chanel is saying. A torque wrench once set to a poundage is no different than any solid breaker bar right up to the point that the detent clicks over. Then as soon as it has clicked it becomes nothing for its usage has ended. But the tool has no way of knowing where you hand is pushing. The only difference is the amount you will have to push and the amount of user error that can happen. But once the detent has clicked if you carry on pushing once again the tool is now just as any breaker bar and now also has no limit on how hard you can push. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk
@@petethewrist The measurement is of torque on the pivot near the head - you can visually see the wrench pivot a bit there when it clicks. The ratio of that torque to torque on the bolt is (d / d + d2), where d is the distance from the pulling point to the pivot and d2 is from the pivot to the center of the handle. Since d is significantly greater than d2 for any practical case, the error won't be too bad unless you really choke up as shown in this video. If d2 is one inch and the design/calibration is for d = 10 inches, then with a really long cheater bar you'll be low by as much as 9%, and choked up by half you'll be high by 9%.
The tool has no way of knowing where your hand is pushing, but the combination of the tool and an actual torque measurement at the bolt does.
@@jmodified just read your first two line just so ridiculous what you think...the pin is there so as as at this point the thing clicks and there is a 3degees of movement so you do not go past the set torque. This set torque is in no way effected by hand position. But it is effected if you do not stop at that three degrees margin of error built into the tool. For after the click the wrench is as any breaker bar and has no limit. If you can't see this I really do feel for you. Await my coming video you will see the light. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk
@@petethewrist Either you don't understand how a click-style torque wrench works, you don't understand how torque works, or both. If you think the distance ratios don't matter, what would happen if you extended d2 (distance from center of head to pin) to 100 feet?
@@jmodified quite simply if the wrench was set to lets say a thousand feet pounds you would not need to use much pressure on the bar at a hundred foot but you would have a greater distance to move end of bar over. But this is simple leverage principles and has nothing to do with when the tool will click it will always click at the set feet pounds, until it clicks it is just as any solid breaker bar. I have possed this question in a forum I get payed for and so far out of the hundreds that have answered not one says it matter. The few of you that believe this guy can not have very high IQs at all as as most say on my forum replies, you have a bit of knowledge but you just can't put the whole thing together. Once the torque clicks, if you hold it just past the moment of the click there is at that point no effort going into your nut at all. You have three degrees of turn till the pressure start to turn the nut again. This is when it will over torque. The chaps making the videos on this subject must all be researching from each others video. Because to those of us with degrees in things like this it is a no brainer and we find it hard that the maker of the video in question even mentioned he believed it mattered where you put your hand. And as for him saying there is two different torques. Well he must be so brain dead if he believes this. Anyway this time of year I have so much going on but as soon as I can I shell post a video on my channel and it will be so positive you will see the light. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk
As an armchair science guy, I've learned never to argue with actual science guys. They know their sh!t, like it or not. Love your work.
🙂 It can be fun to watch when people try to spring a "gotcha" on a specialist.
As a science guy, I love to argue with other science guys about hypotheses. But good experimental results are where the arguing ends. This was wonderfully conclusive. :)
@@gedavids84you have not got a clue about science or you would no without any doubt that that tool has not got a clue as to where the hand is placed.
You do not have to be an "actual science guy". You just have to measure!
@@GeorgeTsiros there is no science to it. People simple do not realise the wrench works from the pressure resistance from the bolt and not from the force applies to the handle. The detent will always click at the same back feed from the nut no matter how or where you applied the force on the handle or extension. Most do not have the iq to see this. This short video says it all. czcams.com/video/mk95F0hHS3U/video.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk
I think that's called walking the walk and talking the torque.
Had never thought about the relationship of the hand to torque, but makes sense when explained! Thanks for the video.
You're welcome.
I learned many years ago not to be dogmatic or disrespectful in my approach because it makes a further trip down Backpedal Road when you've been proven wrong. Good practical demonstration proving the twin pivot explanation.
Lovely practical test, that proves all the things discussed in the previous parts. Thanks for putting this online, now I can have a place to send people to when they disagree with the reality about this issue.
It might not help, but you're welcome.
@@AutoExpertJC Maybe John can do a video on the vital role that a cold chisel and a broken brick plays in fine mechanical work?
Some of these people are so set in their beliefs that, no matter how many evidential facts are brought to the table, they will vehemently stick to their fallacious beliefs. They will even go so far as to back up their views with anonymous, misinformed sources.
@@bruiser6479 Harley mechanic, eh!
@@cme2cauAbsolutely. With the Harley logo on the half a brick and everything.
Being a mechanic from years ago in England,, that's the way we used them, the hand grip is there for a good reason.
Here's a thought experiment that might help any doubters: imagine taking it to the extreme, applying the force at the pivot point of the clicking mechanism (the elbow, if you will). You'd never get it to click, no matter how hard you pull. Yes, it would be harder to achieve a given torque, but the tool's torque limit would basically be infinite.
I’m quite looking forward to the 5 part mini series on how to use a shifter. Thanks John.
250mm nut-fucker: excellent for self-defence. Just saying. (#NotAdvice.)
@@AutoExpertJC They were banned in our auto electrical workshop.
Need to be specific. Left hand or right hand shifter?
@@AutoExpertJCthe full title is “thumb detecting nut fukker”
Confusion as he shows the left and right handed shifters 🤣
That would be a 6 part series.
Once upon a time in a world long ago teaching the correct way to use small tools was a real thing...gone now. I appreciate the time and effort you put into explaining the dos and don'ts of using tools.
Also tool shops used to have knowledgeable people that recommended and sold tools. The world has changed, it's woke and doesnt care. You can't expect young people to understand tools if they are leaving school unable to spell.
I saw the metalwork classroom at school once before they removed it. Replaced with sanding bits of MDF and acrylic.
I’m young and take umbridge with you’re comment. I probably understand tools far more bettered than you, I use chizells in woodwork and even sharpenned them. As for spelling, my English teacher said I was well sic and I’ve got humptene gold stars to proove it. Thinking about it maybe because my sharp chizzels were waveing in her face at the time lol pmsl
@@marke8732 :))
Would have loved to see an extension tube used to demonstrate fully the principle.
You get more accuracy with a cheater tube! It’s easier to feel when to stop applying torque before you hit the stop
I have another thought, (also probably mentioned earlier)….Assume the wrench reads true if held at the grip. It’s obvious that the wrench will never click if you choke up all the way to the pivot pin near the head. In this case a very high pull force still makes a very high torque yet no click. The wrench would obviously be over tightening the fastener. As you go closer to the proper grip area the accuracy improves. My prediction is that if you add a cheater bar you will end up with a slightly undertorqued fastener as you make the cheater bar longer and longer the change will become tiny. I’d like to see the test repeated with a1 foot, 2
foot 4 foot and 8
foot cheater bar.
@@ronburke2422He did already mention it in one of his other videos. There's no need to predict anything, John just proved what will happen.
@@m0rtifiedpenguin Your obviously one of the group John was talking about at the very end of the video.
The maximum amount you can be under with a long cheater bar is quite small. I just checked my 150 ft-lb wrench, and the ratio of pivot-to-hand-center to pivot-to-head-center is almost exactly 10 (19 and 1.9 inches). So the ratio of torque at the measurement point to torque at the bolt is 10/11. With an infinitely long cheater bar that ratio approaches 1, so you can only be under by at most 9%, and by doubling the handle length you'll only be under by about 4.3%.
well, well, well, against all my reasoning the results do change. good thing i watched. Thanks JC.
The results are unchanged...
"Wrenchgate" I love it. Nice work John.
Before anyone starts about those digital torque adapters, i worked for a test lab and tested at a number of them and they are not only accurate but consistent, just don’t football them across the floor
I love the way you speak to your critics. If they don’t listen properly or read for themselves, perhaps you’ll have to get a whiteboard and draw them pictures.
No bullshit, John's right . I learned this when I was a kid from my dad . And by golly it's still holds water today . :)
When you explained that the relationship between the distance from the fastener to the hand and the pin to the hand changes, it all made sense.
I would never have assume this was the case, though it seems obvious now. Thanks for sharing.
I just went through the physics calculations for fun. It was interesting to see the error magnitude variance based on not only the ratio of socket center vs. pivot point but as well as the ratio of the inner bearing snap point to the force applied at the handle distance. My rough assumptions for choking up to 1/2 shaft distance (and taking apart one of my torque wrenches for measurement) provide error calculation between the errors you measured with the two wrenches.
As it has been said: the only real laws are the laws of physics, the other laws are recommendations. Great job, John.
Ambient intelligence.
That is gold.
I am poaching that little chestnut and will likely utilise it during tonight's shift.
Thanks JC.
Hadn't considered it before, but nor had I ever had cause to use my torque wrenches (Kincrome, pivot type) in anything other than the prescribed hand position manner.
The easy proof in my mind is that if torque was applied closer and closer to the pivot pin, then a limit function approaching infinity would apply; Torque applied directly in line with the pin would never make it click.
That's probably the best explanation of what's going on for those of us who burn toast for a living and just watch these videos for the laughs.
Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate this JC, not that I doubted the fact’s, but a visual demonstration should be helpful for the crayon eaters.
*facts. Why are so many people nowadays so keen to use apostrophes when none are required?
@@gyrex Just as some people are shit at golf or pin pong or brain surgery, I’m shit at English and can’t spell, so I blindly trust spellcheck to punctuate and polish my turd. Sorry I am grammar challenged, but I do my best.
@@gyrexbecause…crayon’s
@@dougstubbs9637 thank's for your response. Everyone loves crayon's.
Crayon eaters…love it. Lmao. Good one.
Mr. Cadogan - I am reminded of the line 'I don't need to do that' that characterises many persons of my acquaintance over my many decades on this planet (seven and counting). We, you and I, have something in common - an education that led to a qualification administered by a University, and not just the University of Life. Please, keep up the Good Work. GD (B.E.).
I know what you mean. But it's not the qualification. It's just that, for example, it would be so tedious going back every time and needing to prove how gravity works, and Newton's laws of motion, etc. Some things (facts) can be counted on...
I slept on it for a day and in the morning: Okay, I think I got it. Due to the design of the tool, the torque is measured on a different force arm than when the torque is applied to the screw. The ratio of these force levers is a given value when holding the grip, and the tool is calibrated for this. If you hold it somewhere other than the grip, the ratio of the power levers changes, and the torque exerted on the screw also changes when it is clicked. I admit, I was wrong, but it's a catchy topic, I studied mechanics a long time ago, but I always wanted to understand things, I didn't believe it until then :)
Great demonstration. I used the exactly the same set up to provide the specified torque readings for the bolts on a very rusty, cor-ten sculpture, out the front of a lawyers firm in the city. They wanted a pic of the torque on every fn bolt. The torque transducer, in conjunction with the set torque on the torque wrench gave similar readings, like you demonstrated. In the end, the lawyers covered their arses, and I went home looking like a Oompa Loompa.
Great channel.
Stu. Melbourne
Jeez lawyers are nitwits - about anything but law.
I deal [as little as possible] with a particular construction-materials company that is owned by a bunch of lawyers.
They spend all their time carefully Dotting their Tees and Crossing their I's.
It is hard to believe John even have to make this video to explain this! Thanks for the very clear demonstration and great effort and patience!
He has a very intelligent toque wrench it can tell where his hand is on the outside tube. Lol. I just can't believe how many people have not got a clue about leverage principles and science.
Oh John, how has this morphed from a single video to become a trilogy?! Clearly there are plenty of people out there who skipped the "day" they taught science in school, yet still try to argue with the experts!
Thank you. Great job. I worked in a calibration lab for the best part of 30 years. My job, for part of that time, was checking the calibration and REPAIRING torque tools of all manner and variety.
For click type torque wrenches, your hand goes in the middle of the grip area as does any mechanical adapter when using automated torque calibrators.
You are correct in your demonstration. Nicely done. I try to tell people it’s in the mechanics of the tool…not the length.
I just watched a guy incorrectly demonstrate calibrating his torque wrench by using a pull scale on the very end of the wrench’s locking knob. Ugh! He then incorrectly adjusted his torque wrench according to his calculations from the center of the 1/2 inch drive to the tip of the other end.
He plainly didn’t understand the way the tool operates. And worse…now most of his viewers have been misled.
I've seen similar since my CZcams feed has been suggesting torque wrench videos for me. Two advice videos for home calibration put forward that since Imperial measurements were expressed over a foot, a Force Loading Length of 12" should be used, so they were "calibrating" longer wrenches using a point marked 12" from the drive center. They must have been producing some horribly inaccurate results. At least someone pulling on the very end of the handle is on the less extreme slope of the variation. 🙂
John is totally right from a reality point of view and backed it up with a practical experiment. This hand position issue happens to all clicky type torque wrenches. It doesn't apply to cam-over type torque wrenches and electronic torque-cell type wrenches and gauges. e.g. if John puts a breaker bar to the red torque meter he can hold anywhere and it'll still beep at the set torque. So now that I've given both side an out can we all just get along?
Thanks for doing this John.
I was sceptical and humbly apologise for this scepticism. I must admit after several attempts to replicate the test of using a nut and bolt with a 1.3m long bar extension to my torque wrench using various fairly coarse threaded bolts usually cadmium plated I could see no change in the torque from the long handle to a shortened 30cm hand grip. UNTIL I used a really old beautifully machined fine threaded black steel nut and bolt in perfectly clean condition, I screwed the nut and bolt together with another larger loose nut within the bolt shank, held the bolt head in a vice and used the long extension (1.3m) first up to 75Nm, then held the torque wrench handle and the nut moved maybe 20 deg and clicked again, then held the shaft at about 30cm from the socket and here is where the greatest difference as I got another 30deg of nut movement before the wrench clicked again. John, thanks for the lesson about torque wrenches of this design. I have been turned to the Cadogan 'dark side' of physics, but us ecologists left the dark art of physics behind to become masters of the universe, world and everything statistical (except physics)....
This all deserves a subscription. Bloody marvellous. I was scratching my head after watching first episode..Luckily for me half an hour ago.
Gday John, I glad you showed this demonstration, I’ve looked at a lot of the comments in the past videos and was blown away, you don’t put false misleading information out there, as you said it’s your credibility at stake, top job mate, cheers
Good on you John, thanks for doing this.
Glad to see this test, because the engineer in me said you're wrong. But the torque wrench is a real world device versus the theoretical education I got in statics where every member was weightless, frictionless and completely rigid. The handle part of the torque wrench is not rigid and the deflection of it with the applied load in the correct location on the handle is what the wrench is calibrated to. I reckon if you wanted to only use the middle as a handle you could recalibrate the torque wrench so it considers only half the length bending while the other half remains straight. Good presentation.
The handle IS rigid on the torque wrench he is using, the hand position matters not because of any possible flex in the handle but because of the two lever ratios, if the pivot point is at the head then it wouldn't matter where your hand is but it's actually at the pin about an inch down.
If you were to press down an inch from the head at that pivot point it wouldn't click no matter how hard you pushed despite the bolt experiencing force way beyond the setting.
Kinda hard to explain without bringing out the whiteboard lol
@@archygrey9093 Nothing is truly rigid...any load, applied to any material causes deflection. Different materials have different resistance to deflection, but even a feather on a W24 beam imparts some deflection, albeit unmeasureable in that example. The click is not necessary to apply the correct torque; it simply confirms it if the wrench is calibrated. What the click is confirming is that the tool has achieved the calibrated deflection imparted by the loads to achieve the correct torque. You are correct that the right torque applied at the pin would cause no click, but that's because the rest of the handle must deflect to actuate the clicker.
So interesting, Thanks John. Thanks for setting up the demo. Pretty new to Torque wrenches, so good to understand the importance to use as per design.
An excellent demonstration empirically proving your point that where you grip a length dependant torque wrench affects how much torque you apply to a fastener vis-a'-vis what the wrench is set to.
Not to labour the point though, I would still assert that the majority of people who disputed your first video weren't stupid or wilfully denying reality.
They just hadn't had it explained clearly enough to them.
My two cents.
No - disagree. They were stupid. Anti-stupid is a learned condition. We're too busy giving all the kids trophies now. It doesn't help.
@@AutoExpertJC I teach teenage kids (Maths and Science), some of them do seem to be wilfully stupid at times, but often, with the best will in the world, their brain gets stuck on some detail and until they can get past that eg by a demo rather than talking, they can't let go of their misconception and will defend it.
That's why your board demos with simplified diagrams eg of towing physics work well. And why this video will have changed some those minds (whether they admit it or not).
This never occured to me prior to using one, but from Part Uno it made sense. What I think the original video had was a statement (based on fact), but not demonstrable evidence for those without an engineering/physics background to understand. It made it hard for the unbelievers to grasp what was truely going on. It's like Galileo explaining the earth revolving around the sun to the unbelievers, but now here we are all enlightened (for some).
Nicely put. For me the original video stated facts, without explanation, and was a lot more vitriolic than usual, from the start, not as a result of feedback. That will have raised a few heckles, and prevents rational thought.
This caused a bit of thinking for me, as like others, the pivot at the head is not where the torque is being transmitted to the fastener. The ratchet head is connected internally to an arm, which sits on the pawl mechanism, so that transmits the torque - mostly. The internal arm connects with the outer tube only after the pawl release.
However, there will be some force at the pivot pin, which will increase as the hand gets closer to it. With a closer hand, that pin will put more torque into the ratchet head, by-passing the pawl mechanism. That bit was not explained in the videos, which I believe is why so many people struggled to accept the facts given.
That was great John, never knew all the fine details about the ubiquitous torque wrench, seeing a real world test with figures you can see to prove the hidden maths was fantastic.
I saw the first video a little while ago. And initially I was a little skeptical because I’m thinking that you’re applying torque to the same component so it shouldn’t matter, but could also see how I may be wrong and you may be right. So, that made me a bit curious to see this exact experiment conducted. Thankfully, you didn’t disappoint, and this video popped up on my feed. Great information for sure!
Thanks for this video John. It was interesting to see how much impact incorrect hand positions has. Maybe you detractors are worried about their hands slipping off? I believe that can be a problem. A video on torque wrench calibration would be very useful.
Didn't know it could be called a Torque Wrench. "Hands" is being a bit presumptive, I might have thought.
Never in any doubt you were correct John and thank you for such a detailed series of videos, though I was always told never to use a drive change on a torque wrench when I was younger. Still something I adhere to, just grab the correct socket with the correct drive for the torque required. That said, your smaller wrench with the drive change was still in the same degree of accuracy and repeatability as the larger one it seemed. I'm sure you're now well and truly sick of torque wrenches so I'll probably just buy myself one of these little torque testing jiggers and have a play myself to test other old wive's tales that surround torque wrenches and their use.
The 1/2 to 3/8 adapter makes no difference to the applied torque.
@@AutoExpertJCTrue. You can stack up ten adapters and the torque will not change .. if they all stay collinear and at 90 degrees to the wrench. In practice, this is hardly the case even with one adapter
Brilliant content, great series, and fantastically presented! 👌
Interesting. Because choking takes more effort to make it click, there is actually more torque applied between the pivot point and the square drive. A good genius test.
I actually expected larger differences, and for many situations an increase of 5-10% is not likely to cause issues, but is some critical cases it may well cause serious problems, so thanks for this excellent review.
If you are working on motorcycles where everything is aluminium or other alloys, you will learn painful and expensive lessons of over tightening…
The increase in itself is not necessarily the biggest issue, but the difference can be.
Eg: if you're torquing head bolts and you hold your hand in several different places on the wrench as you go through the 14 or so head bolts you'll have a different torque on each one, which 'can' cause issues. Not a guarantee, but a possibility.
There are a couple of reasons why you get a 5% - 10% increase when you have your hand halfway down the shaft, not a factor of 2 difference. The first is JC doesn't have the lever lengths quite right. The outer tube lever is the distance from the pin pivot by the head, to your hand. The other lever in action is from the 1/2" drive center to the detent mechanism. The detent mechanism is not where your hand is but it is a lot closer to the pin pivot. Thus what is happening is you are shifting the proportion of force applied from all being applied through the detent mechanism when your hand is on the handle, to some of the force being applied through the pin pivot. But because inner lever length is a lot shorter than the outer lever length, you don't see a massive effect until your hand gets to the head side of the detent mechanism.
The second reason JC doesn't mention: When your hand is acting on the handle, the outer tube acts like a cantilevered beam. This applies basically no additional compression to the detent stack, in fact it tends to unload the detent stack when you apply force with your hand to the handle. However when your hand moves towards the center of the outer tube, the outer tube is now acting as a simply supported beam. This loads additional compression into the detent stack and increases the force required to trip the mechanism.
@@tj5020 I actually theorised about your second point being a possibility in this comment section and jc shut me down :/
I think your first point has merit too.
@@Rollin8.0 yeah, well JC doesn't know everything. A simple free body diagram shows the bending state changes as you move where the force is applied to the outer tube
Well... I already knew you were correct, but it's always nice to see it for sure. Couple of things, though;
1. Yeah, it would have been nice to see it with a cheater bar - and maybe with a crow's foot. Not necessary, but.. nice. And,
2. Ratz... now I'm wondering how far off my torque wrenches are. I'll have to spring for one of those torque transducers now...
I thought the video was getting too long even with what I already had.
Plus he did it in all one take! Bravo
Gr8 video JC. Illustrates your point perfectly. I wasn't aware before, but I would never even think of holding the wrench by anywhere else than the designated handle
A great job on this video, this is likely the clearest demonstration of this effect that's out there.
John having being in a previous life as a NATA signatory for 2 years managing a metrology lab maintaining/calibrating a selection of some 160 different torque wrenches & torque watches, and running numerous classes instructing trades the hows and whys of torque tools. I have followed this with some interest, I must concur with your explanation and demonstrations of how to use a torque tools excellent work. It still suprises me how people do not understand basic physics how a torque tool works and think they are just some sort of fancy spanner and just chuck them in their tool box thinking they will still be good to use anytime without proper care
Hey Ray, thank you very much. When I was training as an engineer I worked for a year in a NATA registered lab - destructive testing, etc. It was a total blast, and I learned a lot. Broke heaps of crap, too...
@@AutoExpertJC ha ha destructive would have been heaps of fun mine was looking after torque gear and gauges yes you learn heaps when you see the other side of how things work and the importance of testing
Agreed. Experimental control, process control, calibration, putting your nuts on the line with every signature...
Crashlab would be even more fun.
Well, it's a fancy spanner, but a very calibrated one at that, and not supposed to be used to loosen fasteners either. But somewhere out there a jobbo has loosened nuts with his torque wrench....
@@AutoExpertJC now you're talking that would be great fun
Thanks John for your masterclass on using torque wrenches. Whilst I was aware that the length of the level alters the amount of work (effort) done, I was under the impression that the dialled torque setting somehow disengaged the square drive mechanism when the required torque was achieved, preventing over-torquing (if that makes sense). Probably should have spent more time reading the documentation… Much appreciated
It's surprising how many people think that! If you choose to continue yanking on it after the click, it'll happily continue to continue to apply your efforts to the fastener.
A great proof, I am sure we can all think of YT channels where they have slipped a tube over the torque wrench this is a graphic illustration of why NOT to do that.
You ARE a Doctor of Science. Great Job and Thank You!
Damn, now I have to see part 1 and 2 first ... damn you John 😂
Seen them... it was fun and I learned something.❤
Thank you so much for making this video. I have been telling people this for years. I have also been telling them not to double click their torque wreches.
Finally...theres a proper video on this ..ive fallen out with alot of people ove this
I've been using torque wrenches since I was a teenager, and I'm 56 now and can't understand the fact that there is a handle for a reason and some dimwits don't use it. It's there for a physics reason, ffs. Thanx JC, ripper vid.
I agree. Gotta ask yourself why they put all that knurling there...
Thank you for watching.
Would have been good to see the results attained by the addition of an extension John !
why? The point was made clearly.
It would show the exact reverse. This is where a little imaginative thinking comes into play.
It won't make a difference, the length of the handle is what causes the change in applied force, not the distance from the ratchet head to the socket. He actually did show it using a small extension, the 1/2 to 3/8 adapter is exactly that. It would only change if the extension used was not a solid bar, but something with another pivot point.
@@cmoneyuser I think @TonyWhite22351 means an extension pipe added to the length of the handle end, not a socket extension added between the socket and ratchet head👍
@@simonilett998 I thought the same initially, but that's already been shown. John moves his hand closer & the amount of applied torque increases, so if he was to move his hand further away / add an extension bar, it would apply less torque. I assumed the OP understood this & was thinking deeper, perhaps not.
Love your videos man, don't even listen to ones that "think" they know everything. Keep up making good content as always. Thanks
Absolutely spot on! Another factor that can make a difference is yanking the torque wrench as opposed to a slow, steady pull/push. Yanking/snatching it will lead to over torqueing and could shear the fastener as you are still applying force after the wrench has had time to 'click'.
From my experience pulling the handle too fast under torques the fastener as the additional friction that is generated triggers it
I’ve got an arts degree and even I can understand this!
Waiting for the people who said how wrong you were to weigh in on this one. They should put their hands in the right place, aka up, and admit they were wrong.
Can I assume you mean: "Hands above the Table, Boys"?
@@dylanwebb9584 always good manners to keep one's hands above the table.
I think some of them are attempting to remove their craniums from their buttocks about now.
I just find your video John at the right time ! Thanks for great video
Thanks John, I remember reading this information on the Norbar torque wrench I purchased 30 years ago when I was working as a mechanic, it's good to have a reminder. Cheers, Patrick Sparks
I have an overwhelming desire to go buy a torque wrench now, then I’m going to go around House torquing shit 😂
I bought one but have yet to use it. Look out lug nuts, here I come!
Looks like those torque transducers are reasonably accurate and might be a good substitute for a torque wrench when tightening wheel nuts out in the bush. Thanks for the video.
Until the battery goes flat after sitting in your tool box for 6 years...
@@clasdauskas Yeah...I have one of those transducers for various reasons and I take the batteries out and leave them in the pouch when not in use. They never turn off, the off button only turns off the LCD display but everything is still running in the background. Ditto digital calipers/micrometers...little bastards keep eating batteries.
…great opportunity for the venerable Bluetti AC180, so you can torque transduce all day long…and a portion of the evening.
@@MrPoopnoddy Me too, and still got caught a couple of days ago - put my battery in the calipers and it was flat
@@clasdauskas- I put the battery blocking plastic tab back in after using it to disconnect the battery.
Wow, you do read the comments. Told you would need a practical demo. Thanks John.
Can't argue with them John, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Great series of videos by the way. A+
I see a downward lean on the socket when you choking it. Can one use only a torque transducer only? (I get the click effect advantage), maybe this can be Episode-4 (may the torque be with you).
"The Torque is strong with this one."
I'm not to big to eat humble pie, thanks John for following through on this, it didn't make sense to me from your initial explanation but the proof is in the pudding. The only thing I would add is that whenever I use a torque wrench I stabilise the head with my left hand and pull on it with my right, and often use an extension (as short as possible), do you think that would effect the result?.
Yes he explained that it would in Part 2. If you want to add an extension bar onto your torque wrench, then you need to use a very specific type of wrench! Namely a Warren & Brown Deflecting Beam Torque Wrench, this has NO pivot in the mechanism and therefor is unaffected by where a hand or activation length is applied. See the type here: www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FsfPJlD3QqW8%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&tbnid=w1qh7LLnfrqv6M&vet=12ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfPJlD3QqW8&docid=0R_PbyWw8PLKMM&w=1280&h=720&itg=1&q=split%20beam%20torque%20wrench%20designs&ved=2ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ
Probably should have clarified extension to the handle or extension to the head.
@@tonynicholson3328 The head, I don't know any reason why anyone would add an extension to the handle because the wrench would never handle that much torque.
Stabilising will not change anything. If you add an extension to the handle to make hitting big numbers easier, yes that changes everything, you will be under the specified torque. If you mean an extension between torque wrench and socket, like when reaching in to get to spark plugs, then that's fine, because that extension is on the same axis as the fastener and the head of the wrench.
@@onecookieboy Completely agree, however having no reason to extend the handle doesn't mean some genius wouldn't.
I've only recently been introduced to yourself sir .......... and I do love a good "specific" or scientific fact ....... I also love a straight to the point comment such as "I don't give a shit how you use your torque wrench ........ " 🤣😂
I look forward to future hours of fabulous comments from yourself.
Please keep up your wonderful work John 👍👍
I love videos that expand my understanding of how clicker style torque wrenches work. Today I spent a little time working out the math, which clearly verifies your practical observation that actual torque is higher if you shorten the lever arm, and lower if you lengthen it. Occasionally there are situations where one can't get a torque wrench into a tight space, in which case one option is to use a "torque extender", which attaches from the head of the torque wrench to the head of the nut. For example in the GM service manual for the 4L60 transmissions, such an extender is used to apply accurate torque on the adjustment nut for the front band. A simplistic approach is to use the ratio of the new lever arm to old lever arm length to get the ratio of the new torque to old torque, and that is still accurate to about 10% (within tolerance for the application). However to do this more accurately, the old lever arm length should be the distance to the clicker pivot point, not to the center of the head. Back of the envelope calculations verify that as well. For better accuracy one could use the style of torque tool you showed in the video, where the measuring device sits right on the head of the nut.
I don't understand WHY anyone would hold the wrench in the wrong way
People make mistakes trying to apply torque, from putting one hand on the handle and one on the shaft, to not having workroom to get a grip on the handle, to being tired and in a hurry to finish the job.
So these things come with an instruction on how to use them correctly. Pretty easy to read and follow. It is the same as the owner's handbook in most cars. The manufacturer probably knows more than "Old mate beard stroker"
What? You mean they're supposed to read the f'ing instructions/manual now?
Fantastic experiment! I couldn’t get my head round what you were saying in your previous videos. Wasn’t saying you were wrong, just didn’t get it. This video made it obvious.
Just want to say I am so glad you posted this video and almost certain others will agree also. Just bought a torque wrench and knowing what not to do is definitely worth watching the videos. We can all read the manufacturer's requirements but its the small things like your video that really sticks in the mind. Thank you good sir 🫡
Next on Flat Earth Nightly News: "But you didn't use FtLb so your argument is invalid"
Can't wait. Or in-lb...
You can see the two pivot points working separately as the torque wrench reaches its torque setting.
John’s point, actually it’s not John’s point, It’s just how physics is, is made.
This series would also be a good colab with @TorqueTestChannel.
Their tests would only reflect these.
Thanks for that, bringing a better understanding, never doubted you just didn’t understand, respect.
Hi John
A great and informative series of videos 😊
The takeaway from this experiment is that the location of hand placement on your tool is crucial!
Too much torque mate...
Great to see some broader discussion/explanation of issues re torque wrench use - Had no idea! And very important to me as dialing in various critical motorcycle fasteners
That was an awesome practical demonstration.
I hope it gave you as much satisfaction proving this as it gave me watching it… and so modest.
Surly inside you were saying to yourself “see, told you”!
I know I was😂👍🏻
A highly unlikely situation to ever arise.
Only a few brake, suspension or drive line fasteners in difficult to access places under a vehicle (thank you engineers) requires a torque wrench
You had to really choke up on the handle to get a % that makes much of a difference
"I'd suggest " they'd still be within the bolts safety margin.
Interesting, but not a life altering topic.
And .. he did actually say something like that in one of the previous videos ie better to be a bit over than under - with a disclaimer that this was not license to go completely nuts.
That shorter wrench made a huge difference to over torquing from 50 when held correctly to 70 when held in the middle.
Aaaand there he is
@@Cotterpin_Doozer Yes, interesting
But notice he never attempted to explain why that might be the case
@@nickmaguire4914 👋
Funny, you are still arguing with those with special needs.
It's like trying to convert someone's religion. No amount of reasoning will do it.
What about applying force to the head of the wrench to offset the diagonal force created by choking up on the handle? The fastener was relied upon to deal with this diagonal force, which increased as the apply force lever was reduced. I'm thinking that if the left hand were to steady the head of the wrench, the diagonal force on the fastener could be minimized or eliminated. This may cause the torque applied to the fastener to be closer to the desired torque regardless of apply lever length. Before you disregard, remember that in the video only one hand was used. I am suggesting repeating the test using the free hand to apply force to the torque wrench's head.
Brilliant, thank you. I have been using tools eg torque wrenches all my life and I didn’t know about this, thanks so much again for your informative video.. I will pass this on..
Mate, what are you even torquing about?
You know you're right when all the aerospace engineers agree with you (the employed ones) and the shady tree mechanics have issues
Thankyou John, I wish I had a tafe teacher like you back in the day
How long do you reckon I would last as a teacher? 5 minutes?
Great video! Nice to see your practical demonstration easily blow those "comment section pinheads" arguments out of the water. Good job and carry on 🙂
Thankyou,. I had watched the first video that got me to two others of yours with great detail. I now have no doubt what so ever that this is knowledge that can be shared. On the non loosening of the sping i still need some convincing, as an amateur i'll still reloosen the thing in six months when i reuse it. Thanks again.
Great demo! I remember my instructor saying the more accurate the operator was (hand grip/ 90 degrees to the lever/ consistent with every bolt) the more accurate the torque wrench will be!
I would have thought the explanation as to the relationship of torque and distance was in the unit of measurement! Pound FOOT and Newton METER! Great demonstration now to prove where the 10mm socket goes!
The 10mm socket requires one to understand advanced physics, since black holes, singularities, and the mass of a Kardashian's derriere are involved.
That's amazing thanks, I didn't think that hand position would make such a difference
Now I'm wondering how many times I've done this while servicing my cars and bikes. Thanks for the weekend course, John.
Thanks John I have been informed and enlightened well done
I've known this for years, I can't believe others don't! Thank you for pointing this out.
Well, they say every day is a learning day. Thank you for giving me another piece of factual information to add to my knowledge. As I’m not an engineer, I wouldn’t have thought it made a difference, but now I know the truth. Keep up the good work.
I honestly thought this wouldn't have been the case, great experiment, makes it quite clear!!!