Intro into Capcom vs SNK 2 Part 5 (S Groove)
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- An intro into S groove mechanics in CVS2. S Groove is widely considered the worst groove, mostly due to meter management. If there is any major things that I missed please let me know in the comments section and I will address them as soon as possible. Also any feedback is appreciated.
Noteable Players:
Izumi (Benimaru, Ken, Sagat)
Dr.B (Bison, Cammy, Sagat)
M.Ghost (Nakaruru, Athena, Joe)
Videos:
• CvS2 - Izumi(S) vs Gun...
• Evo2k3 CvS2 Dr B vs Daigo
• CvS2 - 2000_Watts(C) v...
Facebook Group: / 45193. .
Discord: / discord
S-Groove is what I like to call 'Skill Grove' You don't depend on your supers much as you depend on winning with normals. Yes, you'll use supers for sure, but depending on them rather than using your understanding of the game is going to get you beat. It's kind of easy to see why most tournament players don't use it: Super High Dependence on gages over normals. Not to say that it's a bad thing, but there are ways to play around pretty much every groove.
I would say, although I'm not sure if you mentioned this, this is also one of the best defensive grooves in the game (other than P-Groove if done well) due to its massive control over raw power. You did say that you won't use power so much due to lack of level 3 supers, but I also find it's easier by far to charge the gage about 3/4 of the way (when you knock someone down) and wait for red life before filling it up the rest of the way.
Strengths:
Great Defensively
Unlimited Supers (the only groove that does this)
Dodging is less predictable than rolling
Can charge way faster than any other group (Other than maybe K-Groove)
Weaknesses:
Requires good use of normals to win
Very risking to fire out attacks
Requires a solid understanding of other characters to win with
Spamming the same super can lead to trouble
Works well with:
Athena (which you mentioned)
Sagat
Todo
Kyoskei
Morrigan
Ryu
Terry
Rock
Works bad with:
Zangief
Geese
Bison
Cammy
King
To sum it up: Use your skills, not your power, to win with this groove.
Boxer?
1 quick thing is that S groove bar is the only one that doesn't continue to the next round. Even if you charge to half and don't use it the bar will deplete at the end of the round and you will have to charge again even if you win.
You failed to mention the damage boost of the Maxed Meter and Red life meter. 15% boost for Max, 5% for Red life and 17.5% for Max and Red life.
Everyone who read the CvS2 System Faq from gamefaqs knows :D
The thing that really hurt S Groove was the charge acceleration. If the meter charged at a consistent rate (the way it did in the first CvS), it would be more rewarding to multi-charge things. As it is, I definitely am part of the camp that thinks S Groove is underrated and can do some cool things, but the time investment toward charging is a losing prospect.
"The thing that really hurt S Groove was the charge acceleration. If the meter charged at a consistent rate (the way it did in the first CvS), it would be more rewarding to multi-charge things."
To add, level 1 supers in general took a HUGE hit in the priority department when comparing CvS1 to CvS2. You don't have the invincibility (barring throw supers) that's inherited with the likes of a level 3 super. End result is a lot of trade off hits or just flat out being knocked out or a super more often than not. That really hurts a groove that's very dependent (though not mandatory) on Level 1s.
Laughs in Shin Skuma S-Groove Red Life Messatsu Gou
Hadou.
What button do you hit to get the headbutt version of Yamazaki's yondon drill
S, is the best! That's all I play with.
People dont wanna take the time to learn it, that is why it's the worst.
People want the easy stuff.....
S-Groove requires skills..
You missed the ability to Level 3 into Level 1. A number of characters can take advantage of this for some pretty high damage. Terry, Rock, Kim, Rugal, Kyosuke. That is what I can remember off-hand that I used to use regularly in S-Groove. I used to really love pulling off Kim's "Level 4" a lot because it is really flashy. Lvl 3 Hou'ou Hiten Kyaku > Jump roundhouse, Lvl 1 Hou'ou Kyaku. (I am 90% sure about the Jump Roundhouse, been years since I played. May be just Jump and Super.) Rugal would be Lvl 3 Gigantic Pressure > Lvl 1 Total Annihilation. Kyosuke can do Lvl 3 Double Gen'ei Kick > Air Lvl 1 Double Gen'ei Kick.
Patricia Cross can Geese do raging storm into raging storm in the corner? Or was that a c groove thing?
zhafsan That's a C-Groove level 2 cancel combo only. While it looks cool, the actual utility is pretty low.
Here are some random, unsorted thoughts:
I think S-Groove gameplay is somewhat unexplored compared to other grooves, largely because it's believed to be the worst one (so why invest any time in it?). I'm not saying that it isn't, but if someone good picked up S-Groove full-time, I don't believe that they would be too far behind the other grooves. In some cases they might even have an advantage.
I think the dodge is underrated. The only real way to counter it is with a throw, otherwise someone could just gain the life lead and dodge forever. The dodge doesn't go anywhere, so in order to throw, you have to get inside against S-Groove. If an S-Groove player is spacing their dodge and using it sparingly, countering it is not going to be easy. An S player could counter a throw attempt by ending the dodge early and attacking as well (which in many cases negates the short range of certain dodge attacks). Plenty of mind games here in favor of the dodge.
There are lots of interesting matchups. One of the more famous being S-Sagat vs C-Sagat. S-Sagat wins this match (in the early meta least) because C-Sagat gets countered by the dodge punch attack (standing fierce). The best example of this is the Daigo vs Dr. B match where Daigo specifically moves Sagat in his lineup to avoid the matchup.
JJJ (Bison/Yama/Sagat) was a notable S-Groove player from Canada. At Evo in 2007, he was able to beat Kindevu and put him into losers. Apparently John Choi was so impressed, he went over to JJJ, shook his hand, and said "Thank you" (or something along those lines). Unfortunately, there is no video of this otherwise I'm sure it would have been the most famous S match.
I think the common S archetypes everyone is familiar with are those with good level 1 supers, infinite supers and good dodge attacks. An example of this is S-Bison (his second best groove, IMO). What also makes him good however, is his ability to run away and charge meter. Then, with his fast run speed and movement, he can get inside more easily than many characters.
Aside from runaway, I think keep-away or zoners also benefit in S-groove. A character like Rugal could play this style somewhat, and then when he gets into Desperation mode, he becomes really scary linking into level 1s and w/the threat of a very powerful level 3. Dodging augments his defense, and he gains an invincible DP closeup with his kick super. Charging becomes a real draw in Desperation, forcing the opposing player to come in, or risk the S-Groove player getting a level 3.
An interesting analysis. Just a few things, I do agree dodge is underated. Even mention in the video that it is much better than roll as a mechanic in the footsie game.
In regards to a player playing full time, Izumi has played S since the beginning and yes he does some very really cool stuff when he gets Benimaru in Red Life but most of the time he wins due to great footsies and pressure (which you can do in other grooves).
In regards to meter, the "threat" of lvl 3 is very small because the player either has to plan ahead by building up his bar (losing pressure) and if he doesn't he will have a hard time building that bar when he hits Red life. Or even when he gets bar and is at Red Life, the bar depletes forcing the S Groove player to try and get in. And unlike K which increases normal damage by 35% you don't have the ability to threaten with throws and stuff to try and force your opponent open.
Being able to hold on to meter for the perfect opportunity and even saving it for the next round is very strong in this game and the meter system for S groove just doesn't allow that.
But thank you for your insight... I do wish there were more players who play S groove full time
silentscope88 When I was watching the video, I thought I heard you say the roll is better. I immediately jumped up to defend S-Groove, lol. What is actually said in the video is that the roll is better than roll, or something like that. But I agree with the intention totally. I would go further and say S-Groove has one of the best neutral games in CvS2. It's the meter management that's the problem.
I think Izumi isn't the calibur of player I was referring to (nothing against him or what he's accomplished). I was thinking along the lines of someone who's won a major or beaten great players, like a Tokido or Steve H. No one like that exists for S-Groove. I love Izumi's channel though, and it's great to see him playing after all this time.
I think the chances that S-Groove has to get level 3s are definitely less than other grooves, but when it does have them, that improves it. In those situations using charging as draw becomes viable, especially with zoning characters who would prefer in many cases that their opponent try to approach. As an S-Groove player, you have to make an analysis of each situation, deciding if it's important to take offensive initiative, or better to hang back and charge. It's something a lot of other grooves don't have to think about.
I agree that storing your meter and reserving it is important. However, I think K-Groove being arguably the second best groove is a strong counterpoint to just how important this may be. I think it might be more fitting to say that getting level 3 super is very important. In this respect, S-Groove has been shown to come up short.
I just re-watched and I did say "roll is better than roll" lol. Nervous stutters
Personally I see Dodge as a mashup of Roll and Parry/JD. All can be thrown, and its not as strong as a Parry or JD, but serves a similar purpose and is easier to execute.
In regards to meter, Normal damage is amped by 15% upon a MAX Gauge, with an additional 5% once critical life is reached. This one fact is something I always tell my friend (Mghost ayyyy!) to do. The fact that you are so heavily in control of your meter means you should do your best to almost always fight someone at full meter for the damage amp alone. Even if you aren't linking supers, the damage adds up if you look at it through the course of the game. The fact that its not as noticeable (no Yellow or Red Flash like N/K for its damage amp), actually can make S very deceptive.
I believe one has to focus on breaking the tempo of the game as being very important for S. Dodge and dodge attacks really interrupt the flow of the game (and Customs too if done right), and can enhance the footsie game. Once they get meter, they play a bit more similar to N and K. But you cannot mindlessly rushdown or play zoning/footsies with S. You kind of have to do both at the same time which makes it have a high skill floor.
The only major problem is the lack of easily accessible upfront damage compared to other Grooves. You do, in general, have to play at a much higher level than the other grooves in order to succeed which is unfortunate because I believe a few minor changes can make the groove much more in line.
Aaron P Some awesome insights man. We differ slightly in philosophy, but I can totally see where you're coming from. I'm curious, what changes are you referring to that would make S-Groove better?
My favourite, i watched a guy dodge every kick in ryus lvl 3 spin kick super in s grove with a bison... Ive been hooked
Can’t wait for n and k groove!
when are u gonna do N-groove?
It's coming, Just been busy last few weeks... SCR and all
jarrett coleman most likely this weekend
How to charge gauge in S Groove
Pressing Heavy kick and Heavy Punch together
@@silentscope88 and to dodge you press low punch low kick and High punch?
To dodge is light punch and light kick
@@silentscope88 I thought that was roll
@@RuhabDabeer It is, but only for the grooves that have roll... You might want to check out the earlier videos. But basically roll is only in C N and A. S specifically has Dodge as a mechanic. You might be thinking of CVS1 or something
I wish there was a easy accessible way to play this. Really wish this and mvc2 would come to steam but i know it is never gonna happen.
Its not exactly "easy" but I do have a vid in my channel that goes into setting this up for netplay using multiple emulators. And in the description is a link to a discord where you can try and find players
Ya using a emulator is the main way i play it now. It's just too much of hassle to try n setup netplay then find opponents. It's sad great older fighting games pretty much just die off, if they would just re-release with good net code i think alot of people would come back to play.
Yes I wish it's on steam, the player base would be semi alive at least
S Groove is the best. People refuse to have patients to learn.