IT ACTUALLY WORKS! - 3960X / 3970X Direct-Die Cooling
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
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Music / Credits:
Outro:
Vendetta Beats - Angelus
(Custom Version)
Thank you for taking risk, that i will never be able to take.
You will be able too, but when this become as cheap as x58 xeon, so rendez-vous in 10 years !
@Marc Jackson but think about all the cheetos you can buy for that extra money!
Roman you cant fool us @ 10:27 ... We know you just painted your nails and did the liquid metal
Jaz 😂😂😂😂
10/10 application
hahahahah, very good.
€1500 soldered CPU de-lidded and then direct-die cooling?
Talk about mounting pressure ;)
Hah!
he got it for free. No financial risk involved
cactuslietuva if you watched the video then you’d know he actually bought it
😂🤣😂🤣👌
That's actually clever
6:07 The correct term is E-ring or E-clip. The mechanic's name for it is "Jesus clip" because when you pry it off, it goes flying and you yell "Jesus!".
hahahaha thanks man
It's a Circlip. That name you're giving it isn't something used in the UK.
@@zstation64 It is a name used in the UK.
E clips are called E clips because they have the 3rd supporting protrusion like an E.
Circlips (sir-clips for Romans pronunciation) only have the two protrusions at the end.
Another difference is that Circlips have holes for using the pliers with, E clips do not.
Source: I've worked in instrumentation for 30+yrs.
This entailed learning metric, imperial and Japanese fastening systems and using the correct nomenclature where required.
Ask an instrument tech for an Eclip when you need a circlip and guess which they'll hand you.
Many people get those things confused as they do with some metric and Japanese threads.
There's a reason British engineers were in demand worldwide for so long. We could work in all of the imperial systems, Japanese and metric whereas engineers from America work primarily in imperial, Japanese with, well Japanese lol and Europe (with a few others) being metric.
Standardisation being picked up globally from the early 80's (ish) started to make the British engineers skills of using all systems less important
@@der8auer What would it take to passively cool one of these monsters?
Miracles not allowed 😂
Only in Murica :)
I'm actually very impressed you can do these videos in both German and English. As an English speaker, I thank you very much for that.
4:41 Roman baking his "special" Extreme Overclocker Christmas Cookies🎄🍪🍪🍪🎅
Now that’s a cookie exchange party I would go to!
I love how he mumbles out the side of his mouth “1000 euro which is still a lot of money”. (Pulls collar ..... eeek)
I had never thought i would see a modern threadripper being delidded.
Really? Figured nowadays it's all just a matter of time.
Only a 1500 euro cpu, no pressure.
Doesn't AMD throw processors to him for testing?
@@CesarinPillinGaming And still, if you lose cpu, you lose not a little amount of money.
@@CesarinPillinGaming I doubt they would be very happy with him if he did this to one they supplied for review lol
... especially if it ended up being broken. It didn't, so yay, but yeah, that's an unacceptable level of risk in that situation. Much better to have bought it outright for this kind of thing.
Jon Donnelly you mean no mounting pressure? Hah hah ha..
Great video and thanks for doing this! Quick note on mounting pressure. If you look at the threads on the mounting bolts for the HK, they control the pressure by the amount / length of threads. My guess is those threads and the shoulder of the bolt are bottoming out before proper pressure is applied because the mounting surface is a few mm lower as a result of delidding. Visually verify if the shoulder of the bolt is hitting the socket female threads. If so, those bolts would need to be modified somehow to have a longer shoulder.
I don't understand why someone would dislike this.
115 👍 vs. 1 👎. I would guess that would be INTEL. Thank you for posting this video. You sir are a GOD Sent.
Intel Fanboys...
Maybe some youtuber pay for it
Probably the same people that don’t like puppies dislike this.
Had to puke with all that camera moving.
I love your channel. Always doing something unconventional, but at the same time, properly.
This is actually quality and original content. Thanks a lot for taking the time to do it in english so us the foreigners can enjoy as we learn something new aswell.
0:56 "thermal paste is kryonaut extreme"
Is this a new product?
it looks like he has accidentally leaked it or somehting cuz kryonaut does not have this redish color tint
@@_Gnasherrr could just be a special performance paste that is special ordered to extreme overclockers. Something that is probably too expensive to mass produce and sell to turn a profit on a large scale, but profitable on a smaller scale.
I instantly search the name and nothing came out, he might had leaked by accident. Or not.
Yep, IMO it's the more expensive version that left in the grinder for longer time to get smaller particles in the paste.
not leaked Roman talked about it in past videos
Roman: at around 6:15 you are talking about the device holding the bolt in... if you're curious what this is called, it is a "circlip" (circumferential clip, basically). They come in outer and inner kinds - the inner kind is often used to retain bulkheads in a tube for instance, the clip lying in a groove cut into the inner surface of the tube (hence being called an "inner circlip"). The kind you have is an outer circlip, and they are usually used in exactly the manner your one was!
N.B. closely related are E-clips and snap rings. All of these are variations on a theme basically; different strengths, different mounting styles (holes/notches for insertion/mounting using the specifically designed plyer-type tool) and such. I usually just call them circlips unless I need to specify the exact kind as it's a good catch all considering the etymology (all of them are circumferential after all)
Watching the whole delidding process made me shiver so much lol
It's cool for science, but so far really not worth it. Amd has done a good job with their CPUs imo
No kidding, I'm running a first gen TR and if anything the temps are slightly better than when I first installed it.
@@Rhynri lol
7:23 looks really delicious... steaming CPU fresh out of the oven.
It doesn't get much more enthusiast than this. This channel is literally the pinnacle of PC hardware
I think the problem is that top of the dies are uneven as you removed indium with a blade.
Try heating it up and using desoldering wick maybe?
Or heat it up and place piece of borosilicate glass on top of it so indium is flat AF then leave it to cool down.
I love the way Mary applies. very gentle and even.
Copper braided wire and a heat gun to properly remove old solder not a knife.
3:54 *melting, without the s. Smelting is specifically when you extract a metal from an ore
@@joshiswho nah it's clear he said smelting. Keep in mind he's German. 'To melt' is 'Schmelzen' in German. Using 'to smelt' is a common mistake for Germans (and the Dutch too)
The dutch say melting.
@@scheitpaaleiser166 In Dutch we say "smelten" which is both "to smelt" and "to melt", we don't have a distinction in words between these two different practises
Mounting pressure?
This can be solved by placing the block under a 40 ton press
7:02 Imagine the screwdriver slipping... 😰
It won't do the job of bending pins...but still
and also mistankely scratch out too deeply on die....lol
Like the good old Athlon XP days.
At 6:15 it's called a "C" clamp. After that dremmel, that retaining bracket is not work any more!
You have a lot of courage to do this! Much respect to you and thank you for doing this!
Love your assistant helping you complete this since you have a problem with metal thermal paste! Love it!
In North America it would be called a crescent ring or circlip.
No it's not...
It's called E-clips
C-clips have Two supporting protrusions
E-clips have Three supporting protrusions
they go by a lot of different names.
@@taiiat0 Only for people that don't know the difference... ;) It is an E-clip.
add washers to increase your mounting pressure.
Cheap & easy
So a spacing frame to hold the CPU and apply even pressure over the whole CPU PCB?
I was thinking the same, like just scalping the IHS and shave down a block to fit in thur like a lil lego
@@TheRogerbacon That's also a solution
Why not re-used solder by heating up again with the water block ?
Outside of the specific types of clips, e-clips & c-clips, we cal them circlips.
BTW, I know you’re comfortable cleaning the indium solder off with a razor, but if you directly apply Gallium, it’ll allot with the indium and you can clean it off more easily as you’d clean a liquid not a solid off the dies.
This is one of the most intense pressurising videos that I've ever see in CZcams.
The mad scientist is at it again, love it. Can't wait to see what solution you come up with :) cheers.
It has to be making contact or it would immediately shut down. This is one of those interesting experiments that I'm glad somebody else did. The most I'd ever do would be to do some lapping of the CPU and cooler block. I don't care how wonderful people say liquid metal is. The potential downsides are just too much of a risk if I'm the one having to pay for said issues down the road.
6:15 On brushless DC motor, it is generally called C-clip but it looks slightly different in shape here...
It could be that the 5 dies are not the same hight. The temperatures displayed in system are usually the hottest core, the lowest die will always get worst contact and run even hotter than before.
First thing I thought - make a shim on the border, kind like on older S462 Athlons, where the glue originally was. Good part of the mounting pressure comes from IHS spreading it over the edge. I'd guess the best one would be a hair thinner than die height with some soft, yet thin interface underneath (silk? I am not kidding). That's pretty precise work, sadly.
In highschool i went to an CNC machine/cad program and as such I dont understand why the heat-spreaders are not milled as a underside of an water block. Not that hard. would take like 1 school day for a highscooler to do :P
By the way, as usual Top Notch Content from Roman!
Yes I've always thought this. Perhaps the tolerances are negligible when you account for silicone chip flex? It's a mystery.
Because they are mass manufactured and because of the costs involved. Every single time something is handled fiscal costs climb, as do error possibilities.
@@Th3_Gael Naturally, does it need to be said? the cost involved to refine the heat spreader for a product of these volumes is not that big. Sure one cnc mill if you want to go "crazy" price wise can go for say 100K €, but the precision of milling out the channels and the fins over the cores does not need to be of utmost tolerances. So a bunch of cheaper CNC mills can be bought. Time for milling a heat spreader with channels and fins would probably take like 10mins at most. So let say it would cost like 10€ more per unit including the design process of the heat spreader.
So not that huge added cost that are carried over to the end user all in all.
@Viscous Shear
Ofcourse but look for ex on the new TR skus, AMD recommends at least an AIO. If they redesign the heatspreader to be the bottom part of the waterblock then they do can save money on having to design a bottom on a waterblock. They literally can skip one extra step/part of a water cooled cpu.
@@Pillokun viscous shear gives a good example above.
You obviously have little manufacturing experience because 1 cnc mill requires an operator, both of which add expense to the part.
Like I said above, every operation, every time an abject is handled in any way you add costs.
Then there's the waste, production in volumes means choosing the most economical means to the end product, this is not demanded by manufacturers its demanded by consumers who WILL NOT pay for wasted work or materials that they don't have to
If you're that confident in what you say then manufacture some yourself or have them made to your specs, add your profit and see how well they sell.
I guarentee you sell minimal products even if you lower the selling price to simple manufacturing costs
@@Th3_Gael I could do it I do have availability to a cheap cnc mill, but it would me much easier to mill a heatspreder when it still is just is being produced and not attached to the cpu package itself.
After all, water cooling will be a must ie in the future if the cpus get as big as the Threadrippers/epycs are right now.
You should take measurements and grind out indents on the cold plate for the memory controller and each core. That will give everything full coverage contact. Polishing may take an hour or two but you'll have a beastial custom waterblock you market to the OC community.
Never hurts to have the lovely lady set thermal paste, we approve
The best and safest way would probably be to make a bit of a depression around the mounting points where the cooler touches the socket (4 holes, side facing down) so the entire cooler will go down a bit
I think some extra hard foam around the dies might help Keep pressure more evenly spaced on the die board.
May have too recess the cooler a little bit too accept the dies and get more even contact with all the dies.
Then its time to get this baby on a water chiller.
Roman, at 06:09 those are called "c-clips" (pronounced "see-clips") in English.
Wrong. It's an E-clip, not a C-clip. You were close though.
Or oh jesus clip if you lose it.
yea i learned that at Lockpickinglawyer
I was sure it's 'Circlips'
Where can I find the cooking recipe for the CPU?
Great job. I’m curious why you decided to cut the tabs off completely rather than bending them down? It looks like that was how they were made in the first place, one sheet of metal with holes punched out then bent to shape.
Definitely needs more mounting pressure..... I used an EK direct die cooling kit years ago and the stand offs for the CPU block were reduced in height to compensate for the loss of thickness. It should just be a case off measuring the thickness of the IHS and then removing that from the mounting system.
In English that's an "E clip"
Thanks for the great video!
Or circlip. As in circle clip.
@@zstation64 Yes, e clips are circlips but not all circlips are e clips.
Sorry, but it's a *C* clip. Andy is right; circlip is the name
Furthermore, the umbrella term for these kinds of locking collars are 'retaining rings'.
@@matthewkuhl79 another one who is wrong.
C clips have Two supporting protrusions.
E-clips have Three supporting protrusions. Those on video are E-clips
I wish you success in your modifying the mounting pressure plate and look forward to seeing how you solve it.
4:24 When the click sounded, my heart stopped for a second I thought he had broken something. XD
Today on baking with der8auer set your oven to 180C and wait till your ayymd begins to separate be sure to baste your chip after cleaning with premium kryonaut
It think it is very cool that you are making your videos for English and German speakers. I use your German videos for practicing my German. Danke
circlip is the generic name, and that one is an e-type circlip
You should notice "the thermal spreading resistance". It not always good to decrease the thickness of the base. The roughness of the contact surface also should be concerned
well, I do not know the composition of the solder used by AMD, but I believe it is based on a Sn/In alloy, which most likely will present a thermal conductivity at 393K similar to Conductonaut.
It might be kind of a stupid idea, but have you considered "shimming" the dies with metal foil? Perhaps some thin copper or alum foil. This should add a small amount of height and thus increase the pressure. But you'd have to get liquid metal on both sides too somehow, just really thin layers I guess.
For mounting pressure I feel like an o-ring or gasket material around the edges of the CPU carrier would probably work, it doesn't have to be very thick, I think it'll add plenty of mounting pressure around the edges to get rid of the mounting problems.
There is an important question,,in TR, the IO die and computing dies are made by different factories,GF and TSMC.Can you take some thermal image to show the heat generated by IO/Computing dies ?Which one generates more heat?If IO die generates more,,maybe there should be a special cooler design for it.
in of the shots dude your nails were beautiful. Congrats. Keep that color imo
SUGGESTION. I wonder if you leave the solder after deliding and set the copper part of the cooling head (centered correctly) on top of the chips, then heat it in the oven. that's about the best way to get full contact.
Seeing it in your hand... that is a behemoth of a CPU package!
the whole process is really cool. However, I am wondering why removing the thermal interface based on the element Indium, whose coefficient of thermal conductivity is 81.6 W/m.K, for liquid metal Conductonaut, whose thermal conductivity is 73W/m.K?
To improve your experiment how about to use another product with a higher thermal conductivity such as the LT100 with 128W/m.K. Or better yet, how about using graphene sheet, whose thermal conductivity is 1500W/m.K, maybe that justifies all the work to replace the thermal interface. Maybe you can get bigger overclocks.
Those tiny c shaped spring clips you had removed around 6:30. We call em snap rings in English. At least, in the United States we do.
"I don't know what you call this in english." at about 6mins10sec is called a C-clip. It looks like a letter C. :) . Also we'd say "pin" rather than bolt when reffering to the bit of metal holding the spring down and the frame.
Great video. Thank you. It is called a RETAINING CLIP. Why not just use washers or bushings to increase the mounting pressure..?
awesome, wish you much success in your coming mods. looking forward to seeing the followup video
I know everyone is talking about a 3990X 64-core. I don't think I've heard anyone talk about the possibility of a 3880X 48-core. It would make sense as to why they left 80 and 90 available as models. I suspect that will also be an option that will bridge the gap in price/performance between the 3990X and the 3970X.
Interesting, and as I expected with contacts problems... maybe with all 4 chips, there would be more pressure to the socket on borders and not on only in the middle.
That clip you didn't know the name for is called a e-clip or a surclip, E is for the shape of that specific one you had, surclips tend to have different shapes to them
This might be a case where custom IHS/block will have benefit. The block has thickness, so with watercooling the IHS is redundant/excess material. You'd likely want to measure your CPU so each contact is at proper height. Maybe solder the water block right on?
You left us hanging there at the end, you should have put a blue version of your 8 ball logo....😜
I can't wait to see the final version, great vid !!
what would be nice is to surface mill the oem heatspreader down to 0.1mm under where the original inside contact surface is, so you are left with an open rectangle that will help spread the pressure to the sides without relief of die pressure. Either that, or 3d print a ring out of some engineering plastic that can take the loads and temperatures.
Then, sand the studs on the mounting plate down just enough to achieve the correct mounting pressure / spring compression.
Or, as long as you have access to cnc equipment, you could just mill out your own waterblock instead of fiddling around with adapters.
Something that I would love to see on your channel is a proper refrigeration loop OC setup that was designed to run 24/7 at sub-ambient temps. I'm sure you can think of some ways to solve condensation issues without going to immersion cooling. Perhaps a combination of hydrophobic coatings, carefully placed heating / evaporator pads, and vacuum pumped sponges like they use in the medical field for wound drainage would work.
Spring Clips in English. Great video, always find it interesting to see HEDT cpu's delided and pushed to their limit.
Rather than modify the cooler block perhaps first try to get some very thin sheets of copper foil and lay them on top of the die. It wouldn't be as good as direct contact with the cooler but it would give you a idea of how much of a gap you have.
10:23 He doesn't know!!!!¡!
Awesome project, I love seeing content like this!
English teachers here in Germany are usually really qualified. Most of the people are constantely talking on a high level of english.
She's good at her job... and nice nail polish.
Could you make a mount like the delidding rig for the cpu and cooler, putting spring pressure on the two with indium solder inbetween and then use the oven to solder the cooler directly onto the die. :D Or preheat the cooler in the oven and use an air gun to melt solder onto the dies. Then push the hot cooler onto the dies to solder them together. You should get a much better interface than with liquid metal and the hardened solder will create better mounting pressure.
Wonder if due to the pressure now being in the center if the pcb is bowing and the chips are not perfectly flat to the heatsink. Maybe some memory thermal pads along the pcb could help spread the pressure out with the additional benefit of transferring heat from the pcb to the block. Same thing if you snug the pad up along side the cpu chips as you would get more surface area from the side of the chip to transfer heat to the block.
If you want to know why there is so little IPC gain in recent years, here is your answer. Right now 8 cores are much smaller than 1 core in early 2000s. Which means that since multiple core architecture introduction producents are focusing on adding more cores when die shrinking instead of making them faster by adding transistors. This is also why we have bigger gains in one-core speed in mobile market - 8 cores are standard for many die shrinks, which means ARM and other manufacturers are increasing core speed instead of adding more of them.
I think we have enough cores in desktop market to fit all types of production. This is great moment to start increasing core speed instead of core count. At least for desktop.
hehe with that kind of nail polish perfection skills, she's the born applicator for liquid metal!
the indium solder likely has higher conductivity then any liquid metal containing gallium. if you wanted better cooling you'd need to use pure Potassium with the PC in a vacuum chamber.
I loooove these types of videos! Thank you
L is silent on solder. Minor quib from the world overclocking champ. Also you may know this but use a syringe to remove melting indium. You should have a plastic one from the liquid metal kits.
Great, You bet the processor to make this video. Looks like Christmas Present for all the viewers.
Maybe measure the height difference between the I/O die and the chiplets, and mill out a hole for the I/O die to sit in that would be equal to the difference in the die. Also, what is that pink conventional paste you use!!! That is the same stuff they use on chipset heatsinks on AM3 motherboards, and I've needed to redo the paste on older boards, but Mx4 doesn't work so well.
My hunch is the stock solution is pretty well engineered. They just didn't slap the lid on.
Fantastic video. So good you shared the trials and pitfalls. You and Level1 are my goto tech channels. LTT doesn't do anything unique/interesting/bleeding edge anymore.
What a mad man... your gangster knows no bounds..
C-clip or snap ring works for that fastener on the hinge pin. Honestly people in the US call it all sorts of things so you could call it a thingy and no one would bat an eye. 😁
Also pick up some solder wick that indium is a breeze to wick or a solder pipette would work as well. Good ol' solder sucker lol.
Maybe the original cpu heatspreader was a better alloy (for thermal conductivity) than the bottom of that chrome colored exchange. One is better off with something having bare exposed copper -- nickle, chrome or stainless do not conduct heat so well. You could cool directly with de-ionized water, but it would not stay de-ionized for long.
Using liquid metal on dies without insulating smd's. You are very brave.
Remove the springs, the mounting mechanism you removed use a spring loaded tool to set the mounting pressure, try that
AMD should come out with the Der8auer Edition which is shipped delidded and the Der8auer Pro Edition which ships with no lid. And the Der8auer Extreme Edition with ships with the cooler pre-installed on the dies using a custom machined cooler. Or maybe just make and edition with a very fancy heat-shield made of the best alloy, and call it the Der8aueRipper.
I would think that if you drilled tiny holes in the heat-shield above the IO and each of the 4 cores and filled those holes with liquid metal, that that would be the easiest of the options.
06:09 Hardly any native English speakers have a clue what that is called, either. It's an E-clip retaining ring, because it looks kind of like an uppercase 'E' character.
that liquid metal is so weird. but intriguing. great video, keep it up
Damn. Those temperatures are really high. I wonder if something is wrong with the setup.
Everyone on the Hardforums who has one of these set up already is saying the Threadripper 3000's tend to stay in the upper 60's Celsius at load and it is very difficult to get to go above that.
It's 300-400W. How would this stay at 60°C lol
The reason for your high temp is because you are stressing the single core, thus increasing it's thermal dissipation. These CPU's are designed to attach a workload by breaking up the load among the cores.
Would there be any benefit if instead of direct die, we would put the head spreader back on, with liquid metal? Is the solder good enough?
indium is actually a great thermal interface (~86Wm-k compared to 73Wm-k) it also won't ruin aluminum contact surfaces (the gallium dissolves it)
You are absolutly right he doesn't know how to apply thermal paste. My ocd thanks you
Really late to this video, but if you do go for additional delidding for CPUs that have Soldered on IHS, may consider getting some solder wick and a really basic solder iron to remove the solder.
I use to do direct die cooling in the early 2000s because some CPUs didn't have lids like they do now
WOW is there NOTHING that threadripper can't do? SO SO amazing I love threadripper