I only just realized the "curse of flesh" makes zero sense if old gods came from the void. Flesh is literally life, and it fits perfectly with your theory of old gods being twisted life unable to die because of Eonar
It was mentioned the Old Gods representing a body. I began to think about this and came to a realization - They do signify a head. If you bring up the Old Gods Wowpedia article and view the picture on the side, the facial representations are there. It may be a stretch for some, but the consideration might be fun. C'thun is an Eye N'Zoth is an Ear (whispers of N'Zoth) Y'shaarj is a Nose (he inhaled courage and breathed fear, his last breath) Yogg-Saron is a Mouth (all places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured)
A meme early on for Dragonflight was "The Titans put Order magic in the water to turn the dragons gay." LOL I'm happy to see Pyro freak out about this. I was hoping to see more shady business the Titans were doing throughout the xpac but I don't think there was much else.
A lot of those books from Uldaman sound like they line up with events and people that are talked about in the books found in the 10.2 Emerald Dream zone. Its interesting that Odyn refers to the First Ones as "The Makers" when so many of the other titanforged refer to the Titans as that. In SL the First Ones are referred to as "The Progenitors". So thats either the titanforged following Odyn's edict and attributing all of creation to the Titans including their titles, or Odyn knows more than his underlings do. The thing about giving the Titans credit for all accomplishments is I think referring to Life. In a lot of the earlier lore the Emerald Dream was said to have been created by the Titans but then it changed to Freya made it or possibly she was able to tap into something and cultivated it into what it is as we know it. This is interesting because in one of those new 10.2 books called The Nature of the Dream i think, it describes a a dragon who wants to understand the ED more, so they talk to a bunch of Life creatures like Dryads and to Ysera. The life creatures all say that the ED is not meant to be orderly, and that it is ever changing. Ysera says to not investgate any further. This dragon however tries to travel far beyond the edges of the ED and finds itself encountering new types of Life creatures and scenery that it had never seen before. As it goes further into this distant place it gets tireder and tireder until it eventually is unable to stay awake. Once it wakes up it is back in the Eye of Ysera which is a location in the new 10.2 zone that is like the main hub of the Green Dragons. I think this suggests that the Emerald Dream is a type of pocket dimension that was taken from the Life realm and Ordered into something the Titans wanted, something they could control. So all the Ordered Life creatures like the green dragons are unable to travel deeper into the dream past that border that connects it to the rest of the Life Realm, and as they get too far they are tethered back by falling asleep. The book about Eonar planting a tree branch she had been gifted by Elune into Azeroth only for Aman'thul to yank it out is very similar to the story of Y'sharrj being plucked from the planet. It even mentions causing a huge crater. Now considering Elune's connection to life and the Night Elves connection to Elune, and the Nelves connection to the Well of Eternity which as we know the Titans turned the gaping wound left by Y'sharrj into the Well of Eternity. I think its possible Y'sharrj WAS the tree that Aman'thul yanked out, that they were the same event and either the tree became corrupted and turned into an old god, or that Aman'thul is so single minded about Order that he can't see any different between Life and Void, as they are equally Chaotic and Disordered. The idea of an Ordered Life pocket dimension called the Emerald Dream makes me think the Shadowlands might be the same for death; a pocket dimension of Ordered Decay. Shadowlands is all very heavily ordered after all, its systems built on top of systems on top of systems. The entire process of the afterlife has been refined down to a well oiled machine, which it is referred to as quite often 'The Machine of Death'. That idea makes me think that Order was somehow able to escape the boundaries of its own dimension and now it is starting to expand into the others, where they enforce their influence by shaping pockets of those realities into ordered versions of them from where they can then take control and push their agenda onto the other powers. Now in my mind it could be that the Titans were able to escape the boundaries of their dimension, or possibly that each of the 6 expands in their own way. Order being the most self-explanatory with machines and systems designed to curate the others into a preferred state. Life expands by its nature of growth and multiplying. I believe that the Resto Druid artifact "G'Hanir the Mother Tree" IS the realm of life, and that each of its branches and roots expand out creating life wherever they can reach. Elune may have tricked Eonar into planting the tree to allow Life to claim Azeroth before Aman'thul got the chance to claim it for Order, or possibly Eonar is a double-agent or something inbetween. the Life realm being the mother tree would connect it to things like the Sporemounds and Botani on Draenor, the World Trees on Azeroth and to other dimensions and planets. The tree's roots and branches acting like interdimensional connections that allows life to spread. The Void expands either by Old Gods infecting planets, assuming thats what they actually are and not some sort of corrupted life. In SL we see the void invading Bastion but I dont remember there being any fleshy enemy types there, it was all straight void and shadow creatures. So perhaps the void invades by corrupting the minds of individuals who then spread their ideology and eventually do what the Ethereals did to their planet that got entirely consumed by the void. Fel is chaotic and so it is mighty convenient that they were able to get a Titan to defect to their cause. Sargaras was able to order the Twisting Nether and create a single regimented army. While still expanding the Twisting Nether with fel corruption of races and planets like Argus, the Eredar and the Orcs, Sargaras was able to prevent the expansion of the other forces by destroying planets claimed by Void, Life or Order. There is a lot of speculation about the next 3 expansions and their connections to these lore books in Uldaman and Emerald Dream, as well as the info we get about the War of the Scaleborn in the latest book. Which I think Tyr mentions with his idea to help the process along in the book from uldaman where he talks about Tyrhold and the water. I think Tyr's plan was to command the Aspects to have their forces take the eggs of the proto-dragons and have them ordered by the water. Fun Stuff.
@Pyromancer Do you remember the flavor text from the Blingtron's tickets you could get in the daily loot box cache, back in WoD? Random statements about needing reinforcements or supplies and a directive to keep us in the dark for as long as possible?
16:52 ... did anyone ever think, that maybe amanthul was the first order being, grown to such imense power he started ordering other beings of great power from the rest of the power structure, like Fel Sargeras, Life Aeonar, and so on, but maybe Elune, Azeroth and Argus fought him, only to get planet jailed and used for nefarious reasons - where Argus is used, Azeroth sleeps and Elune keeps away ? :D
I believe Tyr may have experienced a "change of heart" but found himself torn between conflicting loyalties. Furthermore, I suspect that the report he created for Loken was never actually sent to him, as it remains in the Dragon Isles rather than reaching Northrend. It's possible that Tyr was conflicted when he wrote the report. This situation reminds me of the Angiris Council in Diablo, with Odyn resembling Imperius and Tyr paralleling Tyrael. Initially, Tyrael was a standard Archangel who enjoyed battle but gradually developed a conscience as he fought against demons and worked to protect humanity in Sanctuary. Both Tyr and Tyrael represent justice and share the "Tyr" element in their names.
I'm watching these lore VoDs and it just dawned on me that there's a ghost of a chance of a hella cool uno reverse card moment. What if... Illidan was actually plotting with Sargeras to get him to the Seat of the Pantheon. And they're there battling against the Titans now? Would be hella cool. Anyway glad to see you back! You always did make me think about the lore more and it's so cool!
i remember the silver purpose quest line not just because of the obvious tyr backstory, but because of something that many people ended up missing entirely. at the very start of the quest, alexstrasza speaks about tyr and how he was full of mysteries. okay, no big deal so far. then, once you get to the part where you watch tyr saying goodbye to the aspects, he states "you know my fondness for mysteries". this makes it seem less like alexstrasza's own observation of how tyr was, but more like something planted. it was so glaring to me back then, and it made me feel just so icky.
Zereth Ordus is where the Titans were created and where order originated. And Zereth Mortis is where the keepers of the shadow lands were created and is where the order of death is created. That is just my thought
Also one of N'zoth's quotes being "-She is not the last, but the first." is certainly talking about Azeroth/Azathoth which is the literal center of reality making both life and death and all the other cosmic forces possible. Also this N'zoth quote here: "With many eyes, they will see again. They will drink, and be uplifted. Deeper, deeper its roots will reach. Welcoming our embrace. Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Our dreams. Our song." Is literally talking about Amirdrassil and the dreams part is about Azeroth/Azathoth The Old Gods have never really been "bad guys" as much as the Titans or more like a small part of what "Order" as a cosmic force is comprised of just wants to have control over reality, like all the other cosmic forces that we know of. In this case it would make a lot of sense that "The First Ones" are simply beings who came into being, and are probably nothing more special than the Player Character themselves, from "Reality" and were able to harness the power of "reality" (which makes pretty much "anything possible", literally) to such an extent that they all each decided to create their own "Realms" in the form of the 6 Cosmic Forces that we know of and they are nothing much other than "the strongest being" capable of controlling said force because the "forces" all stem from "reality" to begin with. Which is also why I would say the Broker's Cosmology Chart does NOT include the Emerald Dream / Shadowlands, they are only shown in the Titan-created chart because the Titans have no clue that the Shadowlands was created by The First Ones and the "Emerald Dream" has literally been there from the beginning because it is Azeroth's dream, which seems to have been disturbed and now over the next 3 expansions Azeroth/Azathoth will slowly start waking up and if that were to happen then all of "reality", including cosmic forces etc. would come to an end so we'll need to find a way the last expansion to keep her from waking up fully. Which would also explain (completely breaking the 4th wall and would never be explicitly stated for that reason) why we are able to interact with the waystones in the Shadowlands because the PC is outside of all of that as a whole and if the first ones were able to get to that point of power they probably got to the point where they figured out that something outside of it all exists and someone with even greater power than theirs (the PC because we are outside the entire "Great Cycle"/"Reality" whatever you want to call it) would eventually come. Yes this is a huge stretch and I'm not good at explaining, but I think it makes perfect sense. PS to add to all of this think about how the PC or any "being" that started in "Reality" is able to harness every single cosmic force and use it to do magic etc. prime simple example being someone like Arthas who started off using the Light and then turned to Death, all of the cosmic forces that we know of at the moment are nothing but "Fractals" that started from "reality"/"Azathoth's Dream" and there could be countless more that we simply don't know of yet as Firim says: “At first I thought only two. until I perceived an infinite array-O, the terror of it!-but as of late I have settled on six. Possibly seven. but the last might be an artifact of the geometry. A fractal.”
These books just further prove how bad the Titans, and the keepers in extension, actually are. And right now in Dragonflight ever since the start of it we have been working to revive Tyr. I think that may be a huge mistake, and we don't even know it
I think Tyr may have a change of heart but will be conflicted in his loyalties. Also, I don't think the report he made for Loken ever got sent to the latter because it is still in the Dragon Isles, not Northrend. Perhaps Tyr is conflicted when he wrote the report because he too has his own beliefs and conscience. Tyr reminds me of Tyrael in Diablo who left the Angiris Council because of their inaction to protect humanity.
@@ryankwon8785 that might be the entire reason he needs rebuilt in a facility he built. No bugs or strings, he can actually be of use. He is just a keeper after all
Pyro, here's your exercise for the day. Place the whole structure of Wyrmrest Temple on top of the Temple of Earth. I've been convinced for at least four expansions that before the Sundering they were one structure. The top of the Temple of Earth is crystalized from friction caused by the Sundering as it happened. I'm convinced that below the Chamber of Aspects and what is the crystalized top of the Temple of Earth would have been at least a couple more floors. The Path of the Titans, if you look at the the part that stretched over the ocean shows all of it was on columns, and likely lead all the way to Ulduar. Also, there was a reference in Dawn of the Aspects in the moment of the dragons "defeating" the not-living that they froze them in thick layers of ice (which is likely where the zone's name comes from). Not-living would mean they don't die... ever. Heaven forbid if EVER something... or someone... caused that ice all to melt away. End Time has no ice in the zone, and is one version of a future. What if Fyrakk came blasting the zone with his breath? We were told we're going back to Northrend. I think we need to keep an eye on this zone as a potential staging ground, or the first staging ground of all Azerothians fighting and finally killing not-living creatures. Just saying...
Also, what does the well of eternity's water brainwashing the dragons mean for the Elves? They settled around the well and are preeeetty addicted to arcane. Could the titans control them?
Hey, Old God fan here. I really like that line and how you read it "Remember! Life is chaos and it must be controlled." Hm I wonder what he could be talking about (scratches head while leaned up against an Old God prison)
Maybe Zereth Ordus is where the Emerald Dream comes from. The reason Eonar seems to want to control the Emerald Dream could be to access Zereth Ordus, maybe for a similar reason as to why The Jailer wanted Zereth Mortis. The shadowlands seem to be where dead souls from all over the cosmos end up, and the emerald dream seems to represent life from all over the cosmos. I think it makes sense that if they are both extremely similar in how opposite they are (if that makes sense), and if they are 2 sides of the same coin, Zereth Ordus and Zereth Mortis might be the opposite sides of the metal cast that pressed the coin into shape! Also when it comes to the new race Arathi, what if they are the heretics from Avaloren. They use specifically holy "FIRE" and not holy "LIGHT", maybe they were originally the version of the titan keepers for Sargeras when he first came to Azeroth, and the Titan-keepers are fighting them because they work for him. Sargeras is engulfed in an orange light, not green fel, maybe he is actually engulfed in holy fire which he taught to the Arathi. I'm just more and more convinced Sargeras is the good guy, and everything we have been told about him wanting to destroy Azeroth might just be a lie to cover for the Titans real plot.
This expansion my thoughts about Tyr changed drastically. I really believe he loved dragons and Azeroth mortal races. I believe he uncovered the grand conspiracy and in some way tried to stop the Titan plans.
hey pyro after seeing you back on the wow train and seeing your theories adout the dream sleep aura around azeroth. Idk if youve look at the wow logo but there is a large ring around the planet in the logo with Ancient runes on it, and its on every single one of the World of warcraft logos.
I would think the designs of all the titan structures just represent the builders. Whoever was working eith the titans probably help build the structures.
Thing that I theorised based on what Pyro theorised.... What if, the old gods are a manifestation of azeroth. The dream being there to keep her asleep will be shattered this current patch (10.2) wich will result in the heroes being able to hear her voice wich leads to The War Within. The old gods being an extention of her would explain on why they corrupted the dream, in an effort to release her (or itself). Chronicle being written in the perspective of the titans makes yasharaj's death by amanthul possible not accurate, they just want to credit themselves for it and explain why the other old gods are emprisoned the way they are. Sargeras turning on the titans could be attributed to the Nathrezims not corrupting him, bit making him see the truth about the whole ordeal about the light and void (hate this part, but a power higher than the titans would be needed to influence them, aka, the Zovaal/eternal ones)
Literally what you said! Azeroth is supposed to be "Azathoth" from Lovecraft lore just like all the other old gods have their counterpart there. Azeroth imo is building up to potentially be the strongest "Old God" who is currently sleeping. Also quote from wikipedia: "Azathoth is the Greatest God, who rules all infinity from his throne at the center of chaos." literally sumps up the way Azeroth/Reality is depicted in both the cosmic charts that we have.
Crackpot theory: Azeroth is, was, and will become the First One/s. If we use Zereth Mortis as a template for Zereth Ordus, it reasons that the Titans are likely the same as the Eternal Ones of the Shadowlands, that being mechanical vessels given "life," or an approximation of it. Big deal, Titans are actually 3D-printed robots as well, sure, *BUT* they obviously have a vested interest in Azeroth and experimenting on it. Everything related to the First Ones is mathematical in appearance: their symbols in Oribos reference infinity, the language of automa is essentially archaic binary... infinity is the key. The First Ones originated/will originate from Azeroth, because this is a time loop/paradox. Everything, from the Titans to the Shadowlands to existence itself, is a self-fulfilling prophecy of the First Ones coming into existence and guaranteeing their own creation, and the Titans/Eternal Ones exist to put the puzzle pieces together for the First Ones.
Titan watchers look eerily similar to the Titans that empower them. thus is particularly evident in frieja(Eonar). Norganon, looks quite similar in appearance and techniques to Tyr. Look at Sargarous from the sword strike cinema. Then look at Odin. I'd wager that Sargerous was there originally and Odin was his "keeper" after he turned against the other Titans they reprogrammed his designate.
Just had an idea by reading some of the comments. One person thought that maybe the curse of flesh didn't come from the void but Eonar. However she is one of the titans that are not from Azeroth. If Azeroth is a goddess of creation could it be possible that the curse of flesh is actually from the world soul and is how Azeroth is supposed to be?
Odyn is sketch. I knew it back in legion when I did the warrior order hall. the stained glass over his throne is of a klaxxi. I keep wondering why that is
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that Wowpedia has moved to Warcraft Wiki (away from Fandom yet again). So while the new Warcraft Wiki is barely searcheable, the editors have indeed moved out, and Wowpedia will grow outdated in due time. - Adûnâi
The more WoW lore I imbibe, the more I think the Titans are rogue AI left behind by a Type 2 civilization that is long gone. Potentially eliminated by the Titans due to "the curse of flesh". The black empire may have been remnents of that civilization.
Its quite obvious to me anyway that the Titans are akin to the Olympus Gods, the second/third wave of gods ruling over mortals. Who won a war against the previous generation exactly like the Olympus gods did against the previous generation the Greek Titans. Under the Greek Titans it was a golden age prolly how it was under the previous beings before the WoW Pantheon. The "first ones's were prolly the true first pantheon who lost against a new wave of Gods who defeated them, who then in turn lost to the "Titans" via some help from the first ones and they own power.
A random idea I just had that I wish I could say had evidence but we have no idea with the First Ones Zereth nonsense, but I just had a crazy idea that "Order" might literally be artificial. It isn't an inherent part of the universe. It was created somehow. But... Zereth Ordus kindof..... throws a wrench in that idea. Depending on exactly *what* the First Ones are anyway. God, the Zereths just make everything more annoying.
It's super interesting stuff. It points to the Titans being susceptible to the same issues the other fundamental forces, each believing it is the most important. Maximum order is tyranny, maximum freedom is chaos the happy middle ground is ordered freedom something that the curse of flesh seems to make possible in mortals which is likely why these cosmic entities began to take notice. Mortals are not all flesh, they are flesh and bone, a rigid substance made of minerals like stone and metal the titanborn are made of. Bone proves a stable orderly base appn which the freedom of flesh combines with to create beings capable of the best of both. I can't remember the rest of the cosmic chart but on all fronts I can think of mortals represent a Nexus of these forces. If you take it a bit further drawing on christian principals mortals are made in the image of God, which means if mortals sit at the intersection of all the forces that points to Azeroth being the being who brought forth all the other concepts which leads itself perfectly to your theory.
Why not Loken before he fell? Odyn seems less likely to me, his reasoning is far too argumentative. Could in fact even be Ra, considering his devotion to the Titan's. Aight towards the end it became very clear it was Odyn... And then he even signs it himself. He also clearly tired of arguing about it, as expected XD
so when you talk about the Titan changing make me think about the Zerith Ordis thing, they can just turn out new robots. Remember when we thought the Titans were gone for good because Sargarus killed them. Well Zerith can just pop out some new robots.
If the leaders of the Shadow Lands and the Titans (of the Ordered realm?) are made within the same blue print. (Zeneth Mordus, Zeneth Ordus), then maybe the way the Zovaal went rogue, so was Sargarus always destined to go rogue? Maybe that is a element of the First Ones plan to balance the universe, a being that can break from hierarchy to seek greater good.
To me, Zereth Ordus is the source of the Ordered beings, so the origin of the Titans, like Zereth Mordus was the origin to the Shadow Lands beings. But, this takes place outside of reality. Odyn is saying here, that reality can exist, but it is not considered "authorised" to be, until it has been ordered. If it isn't ordered, it is open to destruction, that it has no purpose. How can something be "real" when it is ready to be reshaped.
I have a crazy ass theory , what if "Old Gods" are actually Azeroth defence systems , what if azeroth was injured in some kind of war or stuff like that and was in need of recovering and it deploy its defence systems (old gods) to stay on guard agains foreign invaders, what if killing Ysharaaj was done on purpose to disrupt azeroth defence system cause if we remember it was said that Ysharaaj was the head of the old gods and the biggest one , but at that time being azeroth was too weak to react and the titans were scared that if they press on forward azeroth might choose to self distruct or something leading to them loosing everything, so they choose to imprison the rest of the old gods just to not allert azeroth further witch would lead to serious consequences , and patched the hole with their titan magic that actually was poisoning azeroth instead of healing it delaying its healing even more. And then they build all the titan facilities so the azeroth can't rebuild its defence anymore , keep in mind that titan watchers mostly destroyed/imprisoned all the races that were against titan ordering azeroth and stuff like that. And one more thing, what if the curse of flesh is actually made by azeroth, its like a gift of the free will , cause being mechanic things the only thing left is to serve titan keepers , but after the curse of flesh many of the races that emerge after that actually got free will and could choose what to believe and what not. And 1 more stuff , i strongly believe that the universe we live on is the Azeroth universe , i mean everything in there was created by azeroth , void, light , life , death , chaos and so on , but titans are actually invaders , they fucked up a lot of things , including shadowlands and twisting nether and who knows how much more ? maybe even void and light are actually twisted by titans cause void and light are alike , withoud voild there would not be light and without light there would not be void , and we are hinted that naaru the light beings turn to void when their lifespawn is at end , so why the hell there is a war between void and light? if they were not somehow decieved and divided ? Remember Jailor statement , a cosmos divided will not survive what is to come ? what is the cosmos forces were one day united , and the titans came stir trouble and missunderstandings between them. And we actually were decieved to help titans , and killed old gods ( azeroth defence sistem) further delaying azeroth healing.
I think the tinfoil hat's just cooking in the sun at this point. I'm sure Blizzard will reveal that Azeroth is one of the progenitors; one of the First Ones. I think they went to sleep, or were banished to the Void by the Titans when they 'ordered' the universe, and Azeroth is the last one the Titans didn't know about. Let's be real, it's Blizzard; the lore's only really skin deep. You can see the Titan propaganda in action in report 742. Whether 'annoying lore' or not, the fact of the matter is that the Eternals from the Shadowlands are the death-aligned equivalents to the Titans. It's proven with how Odyn talks about how the First Ones gave the Titans their power in Zerith Ordus; everything we know about Zerith Mortis is that it was CREATED by the First Ones, and that the Eternals were subsequently created in Zerith Mortis. So if the First Ones created the Eternals, then they created the Titans. "But what about da World Soulz?" One may ask? Well if you're trying to play your hand at the creators of the universe, after usurping the mantle of the ACTUAL designers of the cosmos; wouldn't you tell your 'simple-minded children' that you were born in the same way your creators were? I think that Sporemound was put on Draenor to kill another sleeping World Soul of the First Ones. And Aggramar, taking after his mentor Sargeras, saved that World Soul just as Sargeras is trying to save Azeroth. It'd fit in with the whole 'circles within circles' plot too. Sargeras = Jailer for the Eternals, and Aggramar = Sire Danathrius, who sees his brother's grand ambition to save the cosmos but ultimately makes the mistake of siding with his siblings because he's convinced by his sisters and the OLD GUY WITH THE BEARD. (Eonar = Winter Queen / Archon) and (Amanthul = Primus)
I would unironically don't mind if War Within ends up with us losing bigtime and ending on such a note that turning to Chromie to have her go back and have us stop Sylvanas from being fucked up as a character in BFA because we need the cutthroat strategist of Sylvanas to help us fight what is ahead, and just... Revert her back to pre-treeburning Sylvanas that way, and just delete everything after in regards to her.
I only just realized the "curse of flesh" makes zero sense if old gods came from the void. Flesh is literally life, and it fits perfectly with your theory of old gods being twisted life unable to die because of Eonar
I've been thinking that they somehow managed to tap into Azeroth's power to do it.
Mu theory is the curse of flesh is a action of Azeroth. Her wardens took her "flesh" and formed them into slaves and she gave them freedom and souls.
@@Gaz4113 Damn! That’s a proper good theory.
It was mentioned the Old Gods representing a body. I began to think about this and came to a realization - They do signify a head.
If you bring up the Old Gods Wowpedia article and view the picture on the side, the facial representations are there. It may be a stretch for some, but the consideration might be fun.
C'thun is an Eye
N'Zoth is an Ear (whispers of N'Zoth)
Y'shaarj is a Nose (he inhaled courage and breathed fear, his last breath)
Yogg-Saron is a Mouth (all places, all things have souls. All souls can be devoured)
A meme early on for Dragonflight was "The Titans put Order magic in the water to turn the dragons gay." LOL I'm happy to see Pyro freak out about this. I was hoping to see more shady business the Titans were doing throughout the xpac but I don't think there was much else.
THE WATER IS MAKING THE FUCKING DRAGONS ORDERED!
A lot of those books from Uldaman sound like they line up with events and people that are talked about in the books found in the 10.2 Emerald Dream zone.
Its interesting that Odyn refers to the First Ones as "The Makers" when so many of the other titanforged refer to the Titans as that. In SL the First Ones are referred to as "The Progenitors". So thats either the titanforged following Odyn's edict and attributing all of creation to the Titans including their titles, or Odyn knows more than his underlings do.
The thing about giving the Titans credit for all accomplishments is I think referring to Life. In a lot of the earlier lore the Emerald Dream was said to have been created by the Titans but then it changed to Freya made it or possibly she was able to tap into something and cultivated it into what it is as we know it.
This is interesting because in one of those new 10.2 books called The Nature of the Dream i think, it describes a a dragon who wants to understand the ED more, so they talk to a bunch of Life creatures like Dryads and to Ysera. The life creatures all say that the ED is not meant to be orderly, and that it is ever changing. Ysera says to not investgate any further. This dragon however tries to travel far beyond the edges of the ED and finds itself encountering new types of Life creatures and scenery that it had never seen before. As it goes further into this distant place it gets tireder and tireder until it eventually is unable to stay awake. Once it wakes up it is back in the Eye of Ysera which is a location in the new 10.2 zone that is like the main hub of the Green Dragons.
I think this suggests that the Emerald Dream is a type of pocket dimension that was taken from the Life realm and Ordered into something the Titans wanted, something they could control. So all the Ordered Life creatures like the green dragons are unable to travel deeper into the dream past that border that connects it to the rest of the Life Realm, and as they get too far they are tethered back by falling asleep.
The book about Eonar planting a tree branch she had been gifted by Elune into Azeroth only for Aman'thul to yank it out is very similar to the story of Y'sharrj being plucked from the planet. It even mentions causing a huge crater. Now considering Elune's connection to life and the Night Elves connection to Elune, and the Nelves connection to the Well of Eternity which as we know the Titans turned the gaping wound left by Y'sharrj into the Well of Eternity. I think its possible Y'sharrj WAS the tree that Aman'thul yanked out, that they were the same event and either the tree became corrupted and turned into an old god, or that Aman'thul is so single minded about Order that he can't see any different between Life and Void, as they are equally Chaotic and Disordered.
The idea of an Ordered Life pocket dimension called the Emerald Dream makes me think the Shadowlands might be the same for death; a pocket dimension of Ordered Decay. Shadowlands is all very heavily ordered after all, its systems built on top of systems on top of systems. The entire process of the afterlife has been refined down to a well oiled machine, which it is referred to as quite often 'The Machine of Death'.
That idea makes me think that Order was somehow able to escape the boundaries of its own dimension and now it is starting to expand into the others, where they enforce their influence by shaping pockets of those realities into ordered versions of them from where they can then take control and push their agenda onto the other powers.
Now in my mind it could be that the Titans were able to escape the boundaries of their dimension, or possibly that each of the 6 expands in their own way. Order being the most self-explanatory with machines and systems designed to curate the others into a preferred state. Life expands by its nature of growth and multiplying. I believe that the Resto Druid artifact "G'Hanir the Mother Tree" IS the realm of life, and that each of its branches and roots expand out creating life wherever they can reach. Elune may have tricked Eonar into planting the tree to allow Life to claim Azeroth before Aman'thul got the chance to claim it for Order, or possibly Eonar is a double-agent or something inbetween. the Life realm being the mother tree would connect it to things like the Sporemounds and Botani on Draenor, the World Trees on Azeroth and to other dimensions and planets. The tree's roots and branches acting like interdimensional connections that allows life to spread.
The Void expands either by Old Gods infecting planets, assuming thats what they actually are and not some sort of corrupted life. In SL we see the void invading Bastion but I dont remember there being any fleshy enemy types there, it was all straight void and shadow creatures. So perhaps the void invades by corrupting the minds of individuals who then spread their ideology and eventually do what the Ethereals did to their planet that got entirely consumed by the void.
Fel is chaotic and so it is mighty convenient that they were able to get a Titan to defect to their cause. Sargaras was able to order the Twisting Nether and create a single regimented army. While still expanding the Twisting Nether with fel corruption of races and planets like Argus, the Eredar and the Orcs, Sargaras was able to prevent the expansion of the other forces by destroying planets claimed by Void, Life or Order.
There is a lot of speculation about the next 3 expansions and their connections to these lore books in Uldaman and Emerald Dream, as well as the info we get about the War of the Scaleborn in the latest book. Which I think Tyr mentions with his idea to help the process along in the book from uldaman where he talks about Tyrhold and the water. I think Tyr's plan was to command the Aspects to have their forces take the eggs of the proto-dragons and have them ordered by the water.
Fun Stuff.
Bruh. 🤯
@Pyromancer Do you remember the flavor text from the Blingtron's tickets you could get in the daily loot box cache, back in WoD? Random statements about needing reinforcements or supplies and a directive to keep us in the dark for as long as possible?
16:52 ... did anyone ever think, that maybe amanthul was the first order being, grown to such imense power he started ordering other beings of great power from the rest of the power structure, like Fel Sargeras, Life Aeonar, and so on, but maybe Elune, Azeroth and Argus fought him, only to get planet jailed and used for nefarious reasons - where Argus is used, Azeroth sleeps and Elune keeps away ? :D
I believe Tyr may have experienced a "change of heart" but found himself torn between conflicting loyalties. Furthermore, I suspect that the report he created for Loken was never actually sent to him, as it remains in the Dragon Isles rather than reaching Northrend. It's possible that Tyr was conflicted when he wrote the report. This situation reminds me of the Angiris Council in Diablo, with Odyn resembling Imperius and Tyr paralleling Tyrael. Initially, Tyrael was a standard Archangel who enjoyed battle but gradually developed a conscience as he fought against demons and worked to protect humanity in Sanctuary. Both Tyr and Tyrael represent justice and share the "Tyr" element in their names.
I'm watching these lore VoDs and it just dawned on me that there's a ghost of a chance of a hella cool uno reverse card moment. What if... Illidan was actually plotting with Sargeras to get him to the Seat of the Pantheon. And they're there battling against the Titans now? Would be hella cool. Anyway glad to see you back! You always did make me think about the lore more and it's so cool!
"They put chemicals in the water that turned the friggin dragon's ordered"
I’m so glad your back, I so missed you and your lore videos.
Just want to say love that your back man! Cant wait for all your new lore vids.
i remember the silver purpose quest line not just because of the obvious tyr backstory, but because of something that many people ended up missing entirely. at the very start of the quest, alexstrasza speaks about tyr and how he was full of mysteries. okay, no big deal so far. then, once you get to the part where you watch tyr saying goodbye to the aspects, he states "you know my fondness for mysteries". this makes it seem less like alexstrasza's own observation of how tyr was, but more like something planted. it was so glaring to me back then, and it made me feel just so icky.
What do you mean 'planted?
What I found most important from these texts, is Odyn confirming the cosmic hierarchy of First ones -> Titans.
This was fun to watch!!!The Titans are so sketch!
Zereth Ordus is where the Titans were created and where order originated. And Zereth Mortis is where the keepers of the shadow lands were created and is where the order of death is created. That is just my thought
What I belive that "curse of flesh" is a gift from Old Gods to give mortals back what Titans stolen when they made "living" constructs
so glad you're back!
For a famous quote and alter only one word, "What is order(normal) for the spider is chaos to the fly".
Also one of N'zoth's quotes being "-She is not the last, but the first." is certainly talking about Azeroth/Azathoth which is the literal center of reality making both life and death and all the other cosmic forces possible.
Also this N'zoth quote here:
"With many eyes, they will see again. They will drink, and be uplifted.
Deeper, deeper its roots will reach. Welcoming our embrace.
Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Our dreams. Our song."
Is literally talking about Amirdrassil and the dreams part is about Azeroth/Azathoth
The Old Gods have never really been "bad guys" as much as the Titans or more like a small part of what "Order" as a cosmic force is comprised of just wants to have control over reality, like all the other cosmic forces that we know of.
In this case it would make a lot of sense that "The First Ones" are simply beings who came into being, and are probably nothing more special than the Player Character themselves, from "Reality" and were able to harness the power of "reality" (which makes pretty much "anything possible", literally) to such an extent that they all each decided to create their own "Realms" in the form of the 6 Cosmic Forces that we know of and they are nothing much other than "the strongest being" capable of controlling said force because the "forces" all stem from "reality" to begin with.
Which is also why I would say the Broker's Cosmology Chart does NOT include the Emerald Dream / Shadowlands, they are only shown in the Titan-created chart because the Titans have no clue that the Shadowlands was created by The First Ones and the "Emerald Dream" has literally been there from the beginning because it is Azeroth's dream, which seems to have been disturbed and now over the next 3 expansions Azeroth/Azathoth will slowly start waking up and if that were to happen then all of "reality", including cosmic forces etc. would come to an end so we'll need to find a way the last expansion to keep her from waking up fully.
Which would also explain (completely breaking the 4th wall and would never be explicitly stated for that reason) why we are able to interact with the waystones in the Shadowlands because the PC is outside of all of that as a whole and if the first ones were able to get to that point of power they probably got to the point where they figured out that something outside of it all exists and someone with even greater power than theirs (the PC because we are outside the entire "Great Cycle"/"Reality" whatever you want to call it) would eventually come.
Yes this is a huge stretch and I'm not good at explaining, but I think it makes perfect sense.
PS to add to all of this think about how the PC or any "being" that started in "Reality" is able to harness every single cosmic force and use it to do magic etc. prime simple example being someone like Arthas who started off using the Light and then turned to Death, all of the cosmic forces that we know of at the moment are nothing but "Fractals" that started from "reality"/"Azathoth's Dream" and there could be countless more that we simply don't know of yet as Firim says: “At first I thought only two. until I perceived an infinite array-O, the terror of it!-but as of late I have settled on six. Possibly seven. but the last might be an artifact of the geometry. A fractal.”
These books just further prove how bad the Titans, and the keepers in extension, actually are. And right now in Dragonflight ever since the start of it we have been working to revive Tyr. I think that may be a huge mistake, and we don't even know it
I think Tyr may have a change of heart but will be conflicted in his loyalties. Also, I don't think the report he made for Loken ever got sent to the latter because it is still in the Dragon Isles, not Northrend. Perhaps Tyr is conflicted when he wrote the report because he too has his own beliefs and conscience. Tyr reminds me of Tyrael in Diablo who left the Angiris Council because of their inaction to protect humanity.
@@ryankwon8785 fr, tyr seems like a genuienly good guy, or at least he honestly cares about the aspects and his allies
@@martinalegre5524 I think Tyr will go on the same arc as Diablo’s Tyrael and cut himself off from the Titans.
@@ryankwon8785 that might be the entire reason he needs rebuilt in a facility he built. No bugs or strings, he can actually be of use. He is just a keeper after all
As someone who quit in Shadowlands, this is so confusing xD I'd definitely watch a video where you explain it all if you felt up to making one
Pyro, here's your exercise for the day. Place the whole structure of Wyrmrest Temple on top of the Temple of Earth. I've been convinced for at least four expansions that before the Sundering they were one structure. The top of the Temple of Earth is crystalized from friction caused by the Sundering as it happened. I'm convinced that below the Chamber of Aspects and what is the crystalized top of the Temple of Earth would have been at least a couple more floors.
The Path of the Titans, if you look at the the part that stretched over the ocean shows all of it was on columns, and likely lead all the way to Ulduar.
Also, there was a reference in Dawn of the Aspects in the moment of the dragons "defeating" the not-living that they froze them in thick layers of ice (which is likely where the zone's name comes from). Not-living would mean they don't die... ever. Heaven forbid if EVER something... or someone... caused that ice all to melt away. End Time has no ice in the zone, and is one version of a future. What if Fyrakk came blasting the zone with his breath? We were told we're going back to Northrend. I think we need to keep an eye on this zone as a potential staging ground, or the first staging ground of all Azerothians fighting and finally killing not-living creatures. Just saying...
Also, what does the well of eternity's water brainwashing the dragons mean for the Elves? They settled around the well and are preeeetty addicted to arcane. Could the titans control them?
"Learning of the first ones would just confuse them" proceeds to be confused by first ones lore
Hey, Old God fan here. I really like that line and how you read it "Remember! Life is chaos and it must be controlled." Hm I wonder what he could be talking about (scratches head while leaned up against an Old God prison)
Oh i can't express enough how i miss this type of content releated to WoW Pyro, it is good to have You back.
Maybe Zereth Ordus is where the Emerald Dream comes from. The reason Eonar seems to want to control the Emerald Dream could be to access Zereth Ordus, maybe for a similar reason as to why The Jailer wanted Zereth Mortis. The shadowlands seem to be where dead souls from all over the cosmos end up, and the emerald dream seems to represent life from all over the cosmos.
I think it makes sense that if they are both extremely similar in how opposite they are (if that makes sense), and if they are 2 sides of the same coin, Zereth Ordus and Zereth Mortis might be the opposite sides of the metal cast that pressed the coin into shape!
Also when it comes to the new race Arathi, what if they are the heretics from Avaloren. They use specifically holy "FIRE" and not holy "LIGHT", maybe they were originally the version of the titan keepers for Sargeras when he first came to Azeroth, and the Titan-keepers are fighting them because they work for him. Sargeras is engulfed in an orange light, not green fel, maybe he is actually engulfed in holy fire which he taught to the Arathi. I'm just more and more convinced Sargeras is the good guy, and everything we have been told about him wanting to destroy Azeroth might just be a lie to cover for the Titans real plot.
I dont know man. There was a lot of soul eating and demons.
This expansion my thoughts about Tyr changed drastically. I really believe he loved dragons and Azeroth mortal races. I believe he uncovered the grand conspiracy and in some way tried to stop the Titan plans.
Maybe the Old Gods are the remnants of a slain being like a Titan?
Daddy is back
hey pyro after seeing you back on the wow train and seeing your theories adout the dream sleep aura around azeroth. Idk if youve look at the wow logo but there is a large ring around the planet in the logo with Ancient runes on it, and its on every single one of the World of warcraft logos.
I would think the designs of all the titan structures just represent the builders. Whoever was working eith the titans probably help build the structures.
so in the next expansion should i expect to farm solarite? :)) since i saw in the cinematic a cystal that may loose its light....
Thing that I theorised based on what Pyro theorised....
What if, the old gods are a manifestation of azeroth. The dream being there to keep her asleep will be shattered this current patch (10.2) wich will result in the heroes being able to hear her voice wich leads to The War Within. The old gods being an extention of her would explain on why they corrupted the dream, in an effort to release her (or itself).
Chronicle being written in the perspective of the titans makes yasharaj's death by amanthul possible not accurate, they just want to credit themselves for it and explain why the other old gods are emprisoned the way they are.
Sargeras turning on the titans could be attributed to the Nathrezims not corrupting him, bit making him see the truth about the whole ordeal about the light and void (hate this part, but a power higher than the titans would be needed to influence them, aka, the Zovaal/eternal ones)
Literally what you said! Azeroth is supposed to be "Azathoth" from Lovecraft lore just like all the other old gods have their counterpart there. Azeroth imo is building up to potentially be the strongest "Old God" who is currently sleeping. Also quote from wikipedia: "Azathoth is the Greatest God, who rules all infinity from his throne at the center of chaos." literally sumps up the way Azeroth/Reality is depicted in both the cosmic charts that we have.
*The Titans infused water with a substance that turns the dragons gay!*
Alex jones was not wrong about that water...
Has Pyro had a look at the ingame events where we look at how they infused different elements into dragons?
should've known something was up when odyn got really into volleyball
Dude I believe old gods are not that evil, it's titan PR
Hell yeah... Pyro is back... Lore master has returned.
Crackpot theory: Azeroth is, was, and will become the First One/s. If we use Zereth Mortis as a template for Zereth Ordus, it reasons that the Titans are likely the same as the Eternal Ones of the Shadowlands, that being mechanical vessels given "life," or an approximation of it. Big deal, Titans are actually 3D-printed robots as well, sure, *BUT* they obviously have a vested interest in Azeroth and experimenting on it. Everything related to the First Ones is mathematical in appearance: their symbols in Oribos reference infinity, the language of automa is essentially archaic binary... infinity is the key. The First Ones originated/will originate from Azeroth, because this is a time loop/paradox. Everything, from the Titans to the Shadowlands to existence itself, is a self-fulfilling prophecy of the First Ones coming into existence and guaranteeing their own creation, and the Titans/Eternal Ones exist to put the puzzle pieces together for the First Ones.
Titan watchers look eerily similar to the Titans that empower them. thus is particularly evident in frieja(Eonar). Norganon, looks quite similar in appearance and techniques to Tyr. Look at Sargarous from the sword strike cinema. Then look at Odin. I'd wager that Sargerous was there originally and Odin was his "keeper" after he turned against the other Titans they reprogrammed his designate.
Does Pyro know about "fractals" and all that? The fractals plotline goes in line with pyro's thought on how key characters echo the Titans stories.
There's 6 zereth realms that we know about according to an NPC from Shadowlands.
Zereth Ordus, Mortis, Umbra,Lumen ,Vitae,Tumult.
More lore plz ❤😁
Just had an idea by reading some of the comments. One person thought that maybe the curse of flesh didn't come from the void but Eonar. However she is one of the titans that are not from Azeroth. If Azeroth is a goddess of creation could it be possible that the curse of flesh is actually from the world soul and is how Azeroth is supposed to be?
Are the Old Gods left over... residue for lack of a better word from the prievious cycle?
AR 938 is khaz algar our destination in the war within.... :O
Lets go!!!
It's made pretty clear that The Old Gods serve the "Void Lords", who are far more undefined at this stage...
Odyn is sketch. I knew it back in legion when I did the warrior order hall. the stained glass over his throne is of a klaxxi. I keep wondering why that is
Tyranosaurus keks.
I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that Wowpedia has moved to Warcraft Wiki (away from Fandom yet again). So while the new Warcraft Wiki is barely searcheable, the editors have indeed moved out, and Wowpedia will grow outdated in due time.
- Adûnâi
I think the other titanic architecture are stolen from the old races of Azeroth to make it seem like the Titans are the true origin point
The more WoW lore I imbibe, the more I think the Titans are rogue AI left behind by a Type 2 civilization that is long gone. Potentially eliminated by the Titans due to "the curse of flesh". The black empire may have been remnents of that civilization.
Say what you will about Sylvanas and her moments of trauma dumping anger she was dead on about “Free Will” being a lie on Azeroth.
Its quite obvious to me anyway that the Titans are akin to the Olympus Gods, the second/third wave of gods ruling over mortals. Who won a war against the previous generation exactly like the Olympus gods did against the previous generation the Greek Titans. Under the Greek Titans it was a golden age prolly how it was under the previous beings before the WoW Pantheon. The "first ones's were prolly the true first pantheon who lost against a new wave of Gods who defeated them, who then in turn lost to the "Titans" via some help from the first ones and they own power.
A random idea I just had that I wish I could say had evidence but we have no idea with the First Ones Zereth nonsense, but I just had a crazy idea that "Order" might literally be artificial. It isn't an inherent part of the universe. It was created somehow. But... Zereth Ordus kindof..... throws a wrench in that idea. Depending on exactly *what* the First Ones are anyway. God, the Zereths just make everything more annoying.
The Titans are horrible when you look at how they want to do things.
Deathwing could still have happened even if they didn't create the aspects, since we had Galakrond.
N’Zoth suits brain better than Y’Saarj because he’s the smartest old god.
Blizz don't ruin the name Melania, blade of Miquella.
It's super interesting stuff. It points to the Titans being susceptible to the same issues the other fundamental forces, each believing it is the most important. Maximum order is tyranny, maximum freedom is chaos the happy middle ground is ordered freedom something that the curse of flesh seems to make possible in mortals which is likely why these cosmic entities began to take notice. Mortals are not all flesh, they are flesh and bone, a rigid substance made of minerals like stone and metal the titanborn are made of. Bone proves a stable orderly base appn which the freedom of flesh combines with to create beings capable of the best of both. I can't remember the rest of the cosmic chart but on all fronts I can think of mortals represent a Nexus of these forces.
If you take it a bit further drawing on christian principals mortals are made in the image of God, which means if mortals sit at the intersection of all the forces that points to Azeroth being the being who brought forth all the other concepts which leads itself perfectly to your theory.
Why not Loken before he fell? Odyn seems less likely to me, his reasoning is far too argumentative. Could in fact even be Ra, considering his devotion to the Titan's.
Aight towards the end it became very clear it was Odyn... And then he even signs it himself. He also clearly tired of arguing about it, as expected XD
so when you talk about the Titan changing make me think about the Zerith Ordis thing, they can just turn out new robots. Remember when we thought the Titans were gone for good because Sargarus killed them. Well Zerith can just pop out some new robots.
If the leaders of the Shadow Lands and the Titans (of the Ordered realm?) are made within the same blue print. (Zeneth Mordus, Zeneth Ordus), then maybe the way the Zovaal went rogue, so was Sargarus always destined to go rogue? Maybe that is a element of the First Ones plan to balance the universe, a being that can break from hierarchy to seek greater good.
To me, Zereth Ordus is the source of the Ordered beings, so the origin of the Titans, like Zereth Mordus was the origin to the Shadow Lands beings. But, this takes place outside of reality.
Odyn is saying here, that reality can exist, but it is not considered "authorised" to be, until it has been ordered. If it isn't ordered, it is open to destruction, that it has no purpose. How can something be "real" when it is ready to be reshaped.
Pyromancer you should get info from Warcraft wiki now. not Wowpedia. Wowpedia doesnt get updated as they fork into a new wiki
I have a crazy ass theory , what if "Old Gods" are actually Azeroth defence systems , what if azeroth was injured in some kind of war or stuff like that and was in need of recovering and it deploy its defence systems (old gods) to stay on guard agains foreign invaders, what if killing Ysharaaj was done on purpose to disrupt azeroth defence system cause if we remember it was said that Ysharaaj was the head of the old gods and the biggest one , but at that time being azeroth was too weak to react and the titans were scared that if they press on forward azeroth might choose to self distruct or something leading to them loosing everything, so they choose to imprison the rest of the old gods just to not allert azeroth further witch would lead to serious consequences , and patched the hole with their titan magic that actually was poisoning azeroth instead of healing it delaying its healing even more. And then they build all the titan facilities so the azeroth can't rebuild its defence anymore , keep in mind that titan watchers mostly destroyed/imprisoned all the races that were against titan ordering azeroth and stuff like that. And one more thing, what if the curse of flesh is actually made by azeroth, its like a gift of the free will , cause being mechanic things the only thing left is to serve titan keepers , but after the curse of flesh many of the races that emerge after that actually got free will and could choose what to believe and what not. And 1 more stuff , i strongly believe that the universe we live on is the Azeroth universe , i mean everything in there was created by azeroth , void, light , life , death , chaos and so on , but titans are actually invaders , they fucked up a lot of things , including shadowlands and twisting nether and who knows how much more ? maybe even void and light are actually twisted by titans cause void and light are alike , withoud voild there would not be light and without light there would not be void , and we are hinted that naaru the light beings turn to void when their lifespawn is at end , so why the hell there is a war between void and light? if they were not somehow decieved and divided ? Remember Jailor statement , a cosmos divided will not survive what is to come ? what is the cosmos forces were one day united , and the titans came stir trouble and missunderstandings between them. And we actually were decieved to help titans , and killed old gods ( azeroth defence sistem) further delaying azeroth healing.
I think the tinfoil hat's just cooking in the sun at this point. I'm sure Blizzard will reveal that Azeroth is one of the progenitors; one of the First Ones. I think they went to sleep, or were banished to the Void by the Titans when they 'ordered' the universe, and Azeroth is the last one the Titans didn't know about. Let's be real, it's Blizzard; the lore's only really skin deep.
You can see the Titan propaganda in action in report 742. Whether 'annoying lore' or not, the fact of the matter is that the Eternals from the Shadowlands are the death-aligned equivalents to the Titans. It's proven with how Odyn talks about how the First Ones gave the Titans their power in Zerith Ordus; everything we know about Zerith Mortis is that it was CREATED by the First Ones, and that the Eternals were subsequently created in Zerith Mortis.
So if the First Ones created the Eternals, then they created the Titans. "But what about da World Soulz?" One may ask? Well if you're trying to play your hand at the creators of the universe, after usurping the mantle of the ACTUAL designers of the cosmos; wouldn't you tell your 'simple-minded children' that you were born in the same way your creators were? I think that Sporemound was put on Draenor to kill another sleeping World Soul of the First Ones. And Aggramar, taking after his mentor Sargeras, saved that World Soul just as Sargeras is trying to save Azeroth.
It'd fit in with the whole 'circles within circles' plot too. Sargeras = Jailer for the Eternals, and Aggramar = Sire Danathrius, who sees his brother's grand ambition to save the cosmos but ultimately makes the mistake of siding with his siblings because he's convinced by his sisters and the OLD GUY WITH THE BEARD. (Eonar = Winter Queen / Archon) and (Amanthul = Primus)
I would unironically don't mind if War Within ends up with us losing bigtime and ending on such a note that turning to Chromie to have her go back and have us stop Sylvanas from being fucked up as a character in BFA because we need the cutthroat strategist of Sylvanas to help us fight what is ahead, and just... Revert her back to pre-treeburning Sylvanas that way, and just delete everything after in regards to her.
first EZ
Odyn going full Stalin