BJJ Experts Try To Fix An Aikido Technique • Proper Aikido Pressure Testing
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- #Aikido #BJJ #MartialArts
In this video BJJ experts take an Aikido technique, break it down and try to make it work against a resisting opponent. BJJ experts in the video: Coach Cane Prevost (2nd degree BJJ black belt) and coach John Mertlich (BJJ brown belt) from Straight Blast Gym Portland. Aikido expert: Rokas Leonavicius (3rd degree Aikido black belt).
Watch the first part here, where we breakdown and analyze videos of Aikido masters: • BJJ Experts Breakdown ...
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► • Aikido vs MMA - REAL ...
While many people think I've made this video series to bash on Aikido, in reality it was a sincere inspiration of my BJJ coach and myself to try to find to understand and find value in Aikido, it's just the results that happen when you sincerely pressure test it and question it.
This is the second part of a three part series. In the first part we analyze and breakdown videos of Aikido masters. You can see it here: czcams.com/video/bnkwhkQQ7vI/video.html . In the third part we will breakdown videos of Aikido competition and Lenny Sly's Aikido. The third part will be released next week! Subscribe here to know when it's time: bit.ly/1KPZpv0
K so basicaly u dont have to do iriminagi with just shoman uchi u can do it with a pushing motion but more like steven wich is more called oufoncei , u can do it with all attacks tho so , and theres many combinations u can do ,
Very nice. You did not disappoint. You are blessed to have the opportunity to train with such humble, gracious instructors.
In regards to "functionalizing" Aikido, I think you would have a better time of it after you complete your training. You'll have more tools in your toolbelt, so to speak. It all depends on if you enjoy aikido enough to invest the time and effort. If you fall in love with jujitsu, then continue that.
It's easy to get stuck in the "TRADITION" mindset with traditional MA. There is not much room to ask why it is done a certain way, or even ask why this technique in the first place. For example, with the chosen technique, the instructors tried to make it work with and without resistance. It got distilled down to something else. But what is the technique really teaching? "Sudden change always prevails." i.e. make your opponent think you're going one way and go the other. That's a common concept in BJJ. I think a lot of forms, katas, techniques are not meant to be utilized on their own, but the concept within them should be incorporated in the martial artist.
What do you think, Rokas?
You picked the right technique for this pressure testing -- if there is one Aikido technique that clearly shows the necessity of a willing opponent for it to work it's Irimi Nage. I experienced that personally. When my Uke was experienced, my Irimi Nage looked beautiful. When it was a new guy -- especially a LARGE new guy -- my Irimi Nage looked pathetic.
I’m of the belief that there are no really weak martial arts, just a lack of understanding of the true value of the art. One the problem of aikido is it became an activity of the privilege class. I’m of the opinion that the best warriors come from the underclass. An martial art grows best when it’s students are of various diverse back grounds. I think bull fighters techniques are what aikido practitioners should be. I see aikido’s combat principles in Floyde Mayweather’s boxing.
I like the Kenpo channel “Art of the Dojo” very much and I am a huge fan of the great late Ed Parker Founder of American kenpo. Parker made kenpo no nonsense form of combat. Every move has a purpose , no flowery dance movements just strikes and counters. Then some Parker’s senior students notice the system needed more and better kicks so tae kwondo kicking techniques were added. Parker admired Bruce Lee so elements of wing chun were added as well as other forms and weapons from other martial arts to improve kenpo. All this was achieved well keeping kenpo unique striking and rhythm. Aikido salvation is improved striking and knowing how to apply techniques in the right sequence.
This is pressure testing???
I can appreciate what you're attempting to do...but you're going about it incredibly foolishly
Shooting from the hip here. This technique seems like something you'd want to do when your just chillin over at the local daimyo's house and somebody tries to get rowdy with a wakazashi.
Exactly what I think. Except it's drawn out to make it look way cooler.
More like you talk so much shit to a person that you hope that they run towards you with a over head chop just so that you can pull off this move.
Man it always ruins the mood when fools get rowdy with wakazashi!
@@Wilbafarce I pity the fool who gets rowdy with the wakizashi!
As a BJJ player, this showed me so much more from a practical standpoint than any other brutal “aikido vs” video. True black belt, true brown belt breaking down a beautiful potential takedown whether it be BJJ or a street fight or mma. Beautiful and educational video. And to the aspects of the aikido practitioner, BEAUTIFUL footwork, and mad respect for coming in to their gym and donning the white belt. OSS.
They didn't seem to hate the techniques, but rather form them to their style, which anyone practicing martial arts should realize is okay 👌
This is not only okay. This should be encouraged
A lot to be said about the deficiencies of these ancient approaches. Not even context can save some of them ever.
Aikido becomes... judo with a bit different footwork, more evasive. Here, that's working "aikido". except it's no longer aikido. Likewise, "usable wing chun" is no longer wing chun, it's kickboxing that uses open hands and more deflectional parries instead of blocks and checks. Likewise fixing Kyokushin karate results in something very similar to kickboxing with more emphasis on straight punches, round kicks and more blocks than checks and more footwork than original static form. Similarly fixing taekwondo results in kickboxing that uses middle kicks more rather than original high kicks and again has more angles.
All of aikido, wing chun, karate and taekwondo use inferior guards allowing any kind of grappler in, the best one of the four is karate but too wide, taekwondo second being too wide and too low, wing chun stance is not a guard but a position for checks (which can be too slow and also don't work against a grappler) while aikido stance which is not a guard either sends at least one arm super wide to make its circular manipulations possible at the same time being super open to all strikes and grapples.
Aikido stance would not even make sense if you want to evade a weapon and prevent your arms from being cut - anyone sane would just stab or thrust or kick you.
Aikido footwork is relatively fine but often too expansive and wide or too direct (not enough angle) for efficiency. Wing chun and taekwondo footwork is a simple line which creates no angles, terrible. Kyokushin footwork works better than either to create angles (the T, I and triangle step) but is too horizontal and boxed instead of playing the distance and flowing.
None of this is hatred or disparaging - just that the styles have known weaknesses and instead of getting them fixed they have stagnated - which is all fine and dandy if you're a reenactor but not if you're a fighter.
We find the similar thing with old abrazare system in HEMA, it gets outplayed by BJJ most of the time if adhered to because it is too simplistic and BJJ has many more tricks. Even then, it fares surprisingly better than the asian ones (judo or aikido) against striking for some reason, probably because posta frontale is an actual guard unlike say modern classical wrestling stance or judo or aikido stance. (the other ones, not so much, they share similarities with aikido) Heck, BJJ stance is similar but lower and wider hands, thus worse against most strikes, but better for grappling...
@@AstralS7orm I am very keen on the phrase "absorb what is useful, discard what is useless" (Bruce Lee) when applying this while doing multiple types of martial arts you are essentially building a style that is your own.
@@steelroc78 Indeed, and then based on your physicality and mental approach different things will work for you than someone else... but basics generally stay the same. You probably won't be a great kickboxer at 160 cm height for example... Or a good grappler with limited flexibility, or a great wrestler if you're not strong.
@@AstralS7orm I can tell your a realist, which is something to be proud of, but strength, height and flexibility are not what always win a fight. If fights were always predictable they would be not be fun to watch haha. What wins a fight is much more within. I myself am not a professional fighter but being trained by multiple credible practitioners and being in fights with multiple attackers I believe this to be true, and if I didn't change your mind I hope I made you think about that "within" aspect.
“ I don’t want to fight this guy, he’s really weird!!” That describes my entire defense platform right there.....
Yes. That's because Aikido is nowadays practiced as an art form and nit Budo.
Those BJJ coaches are amazing. They are the definition of what a martial arts instructor should be. They immediately had amazing understanding of the good and bad of the move. Very impressive
I can't help but notice that in every Aikido demonstration, the attacker is continuously running forward throughout the entire long-ass move. Like nobody in a fight pulls back, resists or changes approach.
pulls back, resists or changes approach are training after aikido towards learning not to spend too much energy on setup attacks..tragically aikidoist get bored quicky and never able to progress to explosive aikijujutsu, which is the combat mode of aikiwaza. A fighter wont win if it gets tired by his own worries and fear, aikido cures this defect first without injury and aggression/selfishness building up in your body
Thats because swords and outdoor cloth plus protections use to make you less agile once you throw your first hit. I think aikido has a spiritual (metaphorical, symbolic) purpose and meaning.
Like when you throw a symbolic object in the fire.
Using the obstacles to go along with them while staying centered and using as little strenght as possible.
And always staying in movement which is also shared in bjj.
If the Aikidoist is good when the opponent pulls back the technique either changes or a throw occurs. If the opponent escapes then there is no more engagement, fight over. that is until a new attack is initiated. the run forward is the attempt to either follow through in the attack or attempt to escape once captured. But it is not so that the attacker always runs often attacks are flat-footed - static.
Yep. Found this video weird as aikido isn't about techniques, it's about how two centers of gravity move. Definitely true that most training is from a strong incoming attack, for simplicity. However definitely there are 'irimi' techniques when people withdraw or push and then withdraw. Aikido is not about throws and joint locks, it's about understanding the opponents centre of gravity and balance. When I went from aikido to BJJ, I had to lay down for people because no one in the club could get me on the floor. Just a completely different model of training.
That's supposed to be the beginner phase but is definitely supposed to change as students advance. This goes for a lot of the wide turning techniques as well. I think a lot of us lose track of what's for training and for practical application.
holly fuck.. this is like two scientists arguing over a problem, everyone is willing and actually eager to hear the reasoning and logic behind the other opinion/theory, at the same time providing really good point on where that opinion/theory doesn't make sense, THEN all of them try to "fix" it... i love how those guys are willing and ready to appear idiots just to learn something and make it "better"
also, you can see the amount of respect between all three.. despite them having vastly different ranks and experience
if they are doing something useful that ultimately the gym bros will use, why call it "look stupid?" id say they're doing what should be done
I love the idea of martial sciences vs martial arts. Art is subjective, science has to be tested, proven or disproven and then adjusted.
Yes. I agree.
@@randombencounter263 i think you're onto something there
100%
I think that Aikido should be taught after you understand another martial art, I mean old Aikidokas were people with a huge background in another martial art, they might understood how the body and a real fight works so they can apply their own knowledge + own martial art + aikido.
Edited: thought for taught
im agree with you
absolutely. spot on. even and especially today, the best aikidoka are cross trained. the quickest learners came from other arts. even now, it's obvious that rokas' aikido skills are improving much faster now than before he started sbg. so cool.
agree too
Totally agree
Correct the aikijujitsu forms were used by the Emporers guard after being experts in jujitsu.
Is not that 1st chop motion actually symbolic of someone holding a sword? So it's not that he is stupid trying to chop you with his HAND it's that aikido was a defense against the sword. Is that not correct?
or knife for today... but "shomenuchi is a straight punch" (same technique)...
There are many justifications to why it's done. The sword metaphor and attacking with objects we actually mention both in the video, but the question is, does it make sense to train such an attack as one of the main curriculum attack?
But can that attack also resymbols an overhand strike as well, and what to do in that situation....
YOU ARE CORRECT. THANK YOU. You strike with the back side of your hand. It's aligned with the line of attack.
People dont train the chop as exactly what it is, a foundational attack. They dont understand the power and utility in chopping attacks. Its not just in Aikido. To me, it seems like a waste of time to grab if I haven't set up the grab with an attack. Thats one way the chopping motion has value, chopping to the collar bone to grab the lapelle. Its not just in Aikido
Rokas-San, most people I know in Aikido just cross train. Many cross train in BJJ or striking arts to have that functional combat sport balanced with the fundamental art form of Aikido. They both have different aims and benefits.
Many people I have come in to the dojo are from combat sports looking for a beautiful art to practice through their life. They put their combat days behind them looking for deeper meaning.
To leave Aikido or not is a personal choice beyond just what is a faster path to functionality, some of us came from functional combat sports and see Aikido different than a purely Aikido trained person. Not everyone’s end goal is to be more combative. Some just want a practice to enjoy and go home. Some people like me just like a new form of movement and experiment with how it works in live training. :D This is why it’s hard to make generalized statements, everyone has a different path. I don’t think that was mentioned in the conversation, different training goals.
Hope you’re enjoying the west coast!
Side note, I like how they took pieces of Aikido, weaved it in with BJJ, then found their own product. Ultimately that’s the aim of any art, to show your interpretation of something.
Unfortunately there are many Aikido groups that expect a rigid looking product to qualify as Aikido. I debate if OSensei would have viewed it so rigidly as well. Who knows! 🤷♂️
Yeah everybody's doing BJJ now
Fun fact: when Imi Lichtenfield (I think that's right, lol) and his top apprentice created civilian Krav Maga, they incorporated some Aikido techniques into it.
Shotgun mic would do wonders.
Will look into it!
@@MartialArtsJourney Try an AKG 451 condenser.
@@MartialArtsJourney I'm a sound guy on film sets and I agree entirely, but if you're going to use a boom mic you'll also need someone to operate the boom in order to make it work properly. I'd offer to do it but I'm a few continents away!
czcams.com/video/f6-hlDic6aQ/video.html
Get the rode videomic go or pro. Done.
Training like this is my favorite! It's a ton of fun to technique lab.
Really enjoyed this! I'm surprised they didn't set it up with an arm drag, it seems like a common way to get to that position.
Here is basically the same technique with an arm drag as you mentioned.
czcams.com/video/KaELw7GWvlw/video.html
Your gi is so awesome. Like a faded black. Reminds me of Heihachi from Tekken.
Lmao true I want one of those
“Gunmetal” is the color that comes to mind
Yes, what kind of gi is this? Does anyone know. I want to get one
Perhaps it started out jet black
At the worst, you're honestly doing your best to find martial artists, unfamiliar with Aikido, to explore its foibles and faults. But in reality, what you're doing is what all the practitioners of any martial arts can and should be doing. You're just brave enough to put it on film!! Thanks so much for your dedicated effort!
at this time i'm drink... but, I want to laugh, I do not know how to explain it, but I heard the Russian accent in my ears :D... sorry
The technique they came up with is basically just the standing version of a pocket sweep from guard. Which is funny because I've been saying this and especially the Kokyu Nage scarf technique are essentially just pocket sweeps done from standing
I sincerely enjoy the expert analysis and commentary from the BJJ martial artists. Thank you. However, the analysis needs to consider two things before it can be accepted:
1. It is based on a poorly qualified aikidoka whose technique and knowledge of Aikido leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, the shomen uchi simply is a strike coming from the front. If you don’t train in your Aikido dojo multiple attacks for this technique (iriminage), then you are not doing Aikido. It should be trained against jodan zuki (face punch); yokumen zuki (hook punch); kento (boxing style jab and cross); shomen Geri (front kick); yokumen Geri (roundhouse kick) Yoko Geri (side kick) and any combination of these in a freestyle attacking scenario. With each different attack comes nuance changes in the iriminage. I fear this Aikidoka has never done this and his timing, taisabaki turning and use of the centre line demonstrate a limited understanding of Aikido, ie., of course his technique doesn’t work.
2. Thank you for breaking down the technique and trying to make sense of it when things change. But again, in true Aikido (as in BJJ and other good martial arts), when the scenario changes, for example the strike changes to a grab, the technique changes. You don’t persist with a technique against the wrong attack. For example, when you changed to a grab, a simple kata mochi sokumen iriminage would have taken you down easily because of the position of your grip. The technique changes as the attack changes as fighting is fluid not fixed. The practitioner just needs to have trained enough to be able to do it - true mastery comes from years of training, yet I don’t see this in the technique of this aikidoka.
I fear two good BJJ coaches are being led astray here.
Exactly. Rokas misleads the two BJJ coaches by depictig himself as Aikido expert. But he isn't. As far as I can see from the few videos I watched for him, he's been training and teaching in some isolated style where no questions were asked and no contact with reality was sought.
When Rokas finally started asking questions he realized that most of the things he's been doing the last decade don't work. But now he travels the world and blames Aikido™ (as if there is a single style) instead of accepting that it's first and foremost HIS Rokas-Aikido that's failing him.
I sincerely agree with you.
Very well said!
You took the words out of my mouth as i watched this. Thank you for posting. More people have to understand that theres way more to aikido than whats being shown here
I completely agree and I'm not even a high level Aikido ka but all I saw what no actual dedication to his commitment towards the techniques...i think maybe he was scared of actually applying force to his own coaches and fear making them angry or look bad or he simply has no correct understanding of the combination of the biomechanical , the internal and even the mental direction of his aiki flow... I doubt he truly understood the term Aiki at all and just thought it meant making big circles to pull people off balance when there are many aiki arts around the world aside from Aikido.
He doesn't even see how his knowledge of grips and wrist control and basically the level. And fulcrum control of the whole human arm and spine posture gives him a good edge against BJJ rollers because he has the idea of centering and alignment.
He is a sad son of Aikido and his own Sensei failed him.
If only he knew how much of Aikido is acrually being used by the SAS, maybe he would have thought harder than live in his little Uke-Tori bubble and expanded his knowledge more by trying thousands of different angles. Of attack. With weaponry and without to learn how to tweak his entries so the Irmi-nage would work.
I really don't blame the BJJ coaches considering they saw very very very poorly done Aikido by a man who supposedly dedicated 18 years... Its a sad joke and he really wasted his time if his mind couldn't even comprehend that simple understanding... Test your art.
Looks like the way to create a new discipline back in the days. Some guys just questioned a martial art, then come up with solutions, and boom a new one has been created! Thanks for sharing and for being honest and open minded.
it is caled mma at start day's from vale tudo...
*gracie challenge* ... and bonus...
watch here BJJ go wrong
*The Future of Jiu-Jitsu (Rickson Gracie, Pedro Sauer, Ryron & Rener Gracie)*
czcams.com/video/keRaWLVOuPQ/video.html
Great work Rokas. You really demonstrated the logic that us grapplers apply when we observe techniques and judge their effectiveness. I know we tend to sound arrogant and douchy when we comment on traditional techniques but you really allowed the space for this discussion to happen organically.
Your best video to the date
Thank you Sergio! By the way, Friday I am definitely planning to release my stand-up sparring footage! ;)
Rokas I did only 2 years aikido but my teacher told me that shomenuchi is a straight punch and in reality you do the technique before it would be a punch.
@@BlackKalmarSkull There are many justifications that teachers come up to make an excuse why you do it, but most of them have no proof to be effective and useful explanations
@@MartialArtsJourney it is what @BlackKalmarSkull wrote... in past I practiced mt in the same club as him:
czcams.com/users/results?search_query=marcin+%C5%82epkowski
simultaneously aikido... today i have 34 years...
@@BlackKalmarSkull Shomenuchi is a weapon attack, traditionally a sword. Might be a beer bottle in the modern day
Tsuki is a punch but in Aikido that began as a sword stab; still may work if treated as a lunge stab with a knife.
Interesting to see how you try to "fix"aikido to make it more real-world useful. I would offer two specific thoughts - aikido came from Japanese sword work - decisive slicing strikes with killing weapons, set up and executed usually as one strike kills attacks, and the second thought is aikido was designed to do no harm to the attacker. Now to keep yourself safe with this style one would need incredibly good timing and technique centred on a deep understanding of the bio-mechanics of movement and balance, including how ligaments and muscles work throughout a series of attack and defense movements. The sword strikes in aikido look like real warfare blows - generally slowed down. Resistance training and free form attacks that are mixed with grappling don't occur very frequently in the vast majority of aikido styles - but they do in Shodokan / Tommiki aikido. Especially in Toshu randori which has many free form, full power attacks (standing grapples) and any counter one desires - set up as sneakily and executed as quickly as possible. Ti does test and develop real world response with real world force and response with multiple attacks and counters ad new attacks and counters and counters to counters etc. About the only limits applied is no punches or kicks and no techniques that can done in too dangerous a fashion can readily break an elbow. Once unscripted blows, grapples and high levels of resistance come into play aikido looks very different and its semi real-world effectiveness can be more reasonably judged.
Is Rokas style Aikikai? The Irimi nage he does is pretty different to what I was taught to do, mostly, he's doing a lot of things I was explicitly taught not to do.
I did a mix between Aikikai and Iwama. Feel free to elaborate what I did "wrong". Although my technique probably reflects me applying what I found out to work out best against a semi resisting opponent after 14 years of training.
@@MartialArtsJourney 1) The elbow to break his posture also breaks yours; if your technique and posture are near-perfect it's actually much easier to throw without those kinds of adjustments.
Much easier. Assuming you're used to practicing with resisting uke every class. It also gives him less to work with in turning the situation back into his favor.
@@MartialArtsJourney 2) You're also breaking his balance much too late, the throw is already ruined if you have an entire *step* in the middle where you take his balance
You need to have it from the start or switch to something else. He can resist the throw if you're trying to actively break his balance at any stage past the earliest moment of the technique. If you have it from the start, he can't resist at any stage, unless you screw it up and give him his balance back
@@MartialArtsJourney Aikikai does not have a great reputation for realism and resisting during training but there have been exceptions -- Aikikai is not standardized one way or another for resistance. Some Aikikai dojos are good about realism and resistance during training, most are not. Iwama Ryu is locked in time and tradition, possibly more than any other Aikido style, and it's a snapshot of a very unrefined version of Aikido, before O Sensei even had finished refining it within his lifetime.
My style practices resistance standard (as in, every class, even every throw) which makes it feel like an incredibly hard martial art to learn, harder to learn than BJJ has been, and more frustrating, but, at the same time, I have had an easier time applying it against trained martial artists than virtually any other Aikidoka (not from my style) that I know of. Our curriculum continues to evolve, I've seen techniques change dramatically in my nine years of training Aikido, sometimes to the point of being unrecognizable visually, even if the basis of the throw is similar.
This is how it is often taught in Aikikai, but in my opinion incorrectly. When you fold uke forward he will turn into you. This version is not common in Iwama Ryu iriminage, which breaks uke's structure much more effectively to the rear. Enter with a deep step to the blind spot (not to the side), blending the motion of your torso with uke's, and controlling his elbow at all times.
ULTIMATE WISDOM TAKEN FROM THIS: PROGRESSIVE RESISTANCE
You should let a judo expert have a go at it.
O sensei said that in a real fight, aikido is 70% atemi and 30% throwing.
I feel that for it to work properly, one has to fight unfairly using the element of surprise.
Exactly...
The amount of preparation and required collaboration from the opponent, just to perform technique, shows what Aikido is all about! A beautiful dance art.
I love watching experts or well educated in a field break down, dissect, react and tweak things it's the most fun for me
"Does it feel like once I've pulled you off, you're compromised?" "It does!"
This is how real self defense/martial arts throughout history was and is always best developed. Problem solving through demonstrated ability and testing it. Great video.
This is a good video. I agree that progressive resistance and true pressure testing need to be brought in to Aikido training. This process is well done and respectful. I actually felt Rokas had the most negative bias against Aikido of the three of them. I feel that an opportunity to stay with the original entry concept was lost when the practice shifted from chop to shove and the BJJ black belt started turning his body without engaging his hands to deflect the shove, as was being done against the chop. Remember all the benefits of Aikido. If it is to be saved, it will be through exchanges similar to this.
The dialogue between these two arts is fantastic. The contrast in training mechanisms is fascinating. I appreciate the healthy skepticism about Aikido. I will say that learning Aikido has taught you incredible coordination. Your body motions are always deliberate and in perfect unity. Any martial art that can teach a person that has an important voice in the conversation. I study Krav Maga largely because I am a big uncoordinated person, and the techniques are simple to use. I have wondered if infusing some traditional martial arts in my own journey would help my overall athleticism. For example, my instructors will teach some kicks under the premise, "this would be useless in a street fight but it will help you learn how to control your body." This has taught me the importance of supplementing activities that would not be directly used in combat but provide helpful foundation. I think this is the real beauty of mixed martial arts. It is considered an asset not disloyalty to supplement.
Would like to see more videos like this. We realise the attacks in Aikido are meant to be representations of Kenjutsu attacks with those large strange strikes and the problem I find with all systems that stem from Edo period KoRyu schools is they have all been ritualised from their original combative practice.
At the end of the day I think even in a historical context the "most functional" and "alive" martial art the Japanese people had was Yoroi Kumi Uchi (basic armoured grappling). Which evolved into JuJutsu and then Judo.
Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Judo are the natural evolution of Japans most functional martial arts.
You know, there is the problem of forms and principles. All that aikido fancy moves, or kata in karate etc. are A FORM. It is done intentionally in an exagerated unrealistic way in order to show student some mechanisms. When actually fighting, you are expected to take these mechanisms, these principles, and apply them in any way you see them fit. That is why fancy moves are only to be seen during training. Form (which is fancy) usually does not work in fight, but it is a way to teach you mechanisms that do.
The art of transforming a form into a victory over opponent is also something you need to learn. So after you learned a form, you add a little resistence, randomizations etc. And here is the big task for a teacher. He must not insist on keeping the form intact, he must do the contrary - help student to extract the mechanism in a form and transform it into his own way of using it. It requires a lot of experience on teacher's side, and a good understanding of difference between a form and a principle. Ironically, this is generally better understood in martial sports like BJJ or boxing, probably because they are always tested against opponents, so they quickly find out if their application of a form is bad. In traditional martial arts this is different and too many adepts will never find it in whole their lives.
In this video, you could see those two BJJ instructors to look at a form, extract a principle, and apply it in a way that worked for them. The result look a very much like BJJ ... of course, because that is what they are accustomed too. It is still the same principle, so there is no problem in that it does not look like aikido anymore.
The justification of over-exaggerated display techniques in your first paragraph isn't anything more than a justification. It doesn't hold weight in reality. If you want to get stronger, you lift heavy weights, and if you want to understand the mechanics of throwing people, you practice the **proper** mechanics over and over again. The concept that you need to fluff up the technique in order for people to understand the mechanics is demonstrable nonsense. Teaching a student a technique so that later they may discard that technique isn't only a waste of time, it's actually detrimental to the student's progress, as after you drill the display motion into the student, they will try and replicate that movement.
Well, no. Every traditional martial art I know about has forms, because they are a good way to teach and preserve what is neccessary. It is OK to exagerate in order to put emphasis on what you want to show IF you always have in mind that it is just a teacher's tool, not a final goal. Teachers use a lot of tools in order to teach you, and form is one of them. If I take your lifting weights example ... your goal is to have a strong punch (for example), so you practice lifting weights. After that, you will be good at lifting weights, but will not have a strong punch. But lifting weights was a good tool; add a little bit of technique, and you will suddenly see that lifting prepared you very well for strong punches. You do not punch in the same way you lifted, but you use same muscles and may find the punching move similar.
@@PetrKavan Forms are probably the worst way to preserve anything - the better way is paper and accurate drawings and descriptions in detail. Which the original founders could've done if they didn't want to keep the silly hereditary and secret aspect of it.
Forms and katas have a tendency to be distorted with no possibility of recovery - since you can't know what is wrong without figuring it out on your own or trying to reimplement the form in sparring with resisting partner. If you want to show a movement, you show a movement not orchestrate a fake scenario. If you want to train punching, you punch things. (Which is what modern kyokushin arate does in addition to forms and was really chewed out by old masters for.)
I have to disagree with that. For western medieval fencing we have a lot of drawings and descriptions, but don't have any forms. Founders of HEMA had to reinvent everything in the same way as would be necessary from forms. HEMA would never work if there were no people with fighting experience thinking "how can I do that described move in a way that would really work?". Instead of extracting principles from forms, they had to extract it from drawings and descriptions. As far as I know, the process was not easier or less misleading. And would probably be easier if they had both drawings and preserved original forms.
you talk about fancy, but the only thing fancy is you using whole bunch of words to disguise your lack of knowledge. Every decent martial artist knows a kata is one of the most important things one can practise. Kata equals muscle memory. When you go to a boxing gym you'll learn nothing but katas. In every gym that is. How do you think a elite Lumpini thai boxer will block a teep...with a karate kata!
I skipped on to 8min30s and found a brilliant demonstration of the METHOD of live practice ... drilling, making mistakes, analysing holes/gaps in a technique, looking at alternatives/backup plans.
Def best video I've seen of yours to date.
Thank you for being an example that all martial artists should follow.
I often did a similar movement in judo while ground fighting, and it worked in randori.
- Fake an opening for your opponent's right hand to attempt grabbing your left sleeve.
- As the opponent lunges to grab your left sleeve, reach with your right hand to grab their right sleeve or wrist.
- Pull them out of balance towards your right hip, use the opponent's weight as an additional source of force to quickly step towards them (or kneel towards them if on your knees) (aim roughly 15 degrees left of their center of mass).
- As they are pulled out of balance, they will naturally raise their chin to keep their head perpendicular to the ground.
- You now have their undefended neck close to their right side of your torso.
- Quickly slide your right hand and wrist under their chin. ¸
- Obviously all that aikido wishi washy is unnecessary because you already won by that point.
- Grab left side of their colar with your right hand if possible, if not, grab your own clothing as you lock the back of their head into your left armpit.
- Stamp their head into the ground and strangle them. Instant tap out. They're being hung by basically their entire weight plus yours.
1. Title correction: "Rokas tries to teach Aikido to BJJ experts." There was no "fixing" happening anywhere in this video.
2. Shomen uchi is not stupid. It is the deadliest weapons attack angle and very common.
3. The focus on a training progression is great, but any decent Aikido instructor would be incorporating that.
4. Cane is correct that the wrong argument is if the technique works or not.
5. Ironically enough, there was absolutely zero mention of Aiki.
2. Show evidence please. From what we know from kendo and HEMA it's not a useful angle and not deadly at all. The closest thing that works would be "high fourth" but it is with blade upside down sticking forward so this defense makes no sense. And with the overhead sword, it makes even less sense to charge in. It's not even a good angle for a mace, being too far back.
5. Aiki is essentially spiritual mumbo-jumbo that does not work. What, are you attempting to scare your opponent into submission?
Modern way is deescalation and respect and cold analysis. Unless you mean deflection and redirection, this is always in use and no idea why it should be mentioned at all, it's obvious. If you mean *always minimizing effort*, that's a poor basis for fighting or any training.
Yep, no aiki.... and no kuzushi.
@@Lithium381 Again, why use Japanese terms for something that has obvious English names (offbalancing, breaking frame) and is a part of every throw ever made and obvious too?
Not to mention not specific to aikido and part of every system based on jujutsu (including the name most of the times) as well as a few others?
Very interesting Rokas!
you should make a video series revising all Aikido techniques with BJJ people and Judoka to see what can be done.
no he shouldnt.he should show the true roots of aikido techniques which are primarily weapon(sword) attacks with unarmed defence.
aikido fails most times because the attacks ate larger than life which most striking arts do not do.
aikido joint manipulations are fully functional but this type of technique works on different principles
Yup. Love to see an aikido practitioner tying those techniques, against a judoka or wrestler...
@Mog D yup that too. and also, against striking arts. since people have two arms and legs to hit with...
@Mog D aikido comes from Daito ryu jujutsu,judo comes from jujutsu but not sure of the koryu,bjj(basicaly just judo ) comes from kodokan judo(invented by Kano Jigaro in late 1800's) with a bit of catch wtestling from Rickson Gracie.
Karate(china hand) originates in RyuKyu islands pre japanese invasion in 1605(satsuma clan).it is a mix of pechin fighting arts and chinese gung fu which goes back to Shaolin(which goes back to indian fighting systems) .
Kara te(empty hand) was renamed because of extremely racist attitudes of japanese to chinese when gichin funagoshi introduced it to mainland japan in 1920's in the form of shotokan.
karate is not japanese where as the other 3 at least have koryu roots.
@@jadekayak01 thank you.
Hey Rokas and Co. In spite of my misgivings, I think you guys did a pretty good job of looking at pain-points in iriminage. The what-ifs... I 'd like to explain how you can continue to play with this, using the principle of centrifugal force. You know Rokas, if you look at John's underarm take-down entry, if you think, about it, he was doing his own MMA version of iriminage. We sometimes, in our dojo, used to do those kinds of things. Iriminage counter to an iriminage. The other principle you might like to consider, which ties in with the first one, is the interchange-ablility of the inside and outside in terms of control. If you look at iriminage at speed, it's really a type of centrifugal motion, like the hammer throw, where you are in the center, swinging the other guy around you like a heavy hammer. But it is also possible to think of the other side of this, such as in kaiten-nage, where you run around the outside of the circle and come back into the center to finish. In other words, centripetal motion. The two together form a unity. Two sides of the same coin, or if you like they are a convenient couple (or combo). Where John gets under your arm, so long as he is in close, he can take you down. Sure. But, if, as he comes in, your response is to create space yourself as he 'creates space and closes in'...you are then in the perfect position to start doing kaiten-nage, although you'd have to have your outside arm, inside and under his arm to pull it off (kind of like the beginning to the nikkyo pin on the ground), and your other arm, which is now close to his neck, will have to bend slightly so that your elbow, ideally, is in the space between you two... (you may need to use a slight pushing and chopping action into the side of his neck to stop him from getting under your shoulder blade with his center of gravity). So the realization here has to be the relationship between centrifugal technique and centripetal technique. (The key here is to keep his center always moving around you, using your feeling arms and contact points to control the distance between you. The relationship between the closing-in action you need to make to do iriminage (*near the center of the revolving circle), and the action of moving out to the periphery of that circle to do kaiten... are related if you imagine a revolving wheel. You need to keep the wheel rolling whether you are at the hub or at the periphery. John's counter was initially based on creating space and ducking under tori's arm. (I'm going to set aside my own objections to the way you did irimi, because it looks too much like Saito's and it is OK but it is relatively static...and less reliant on centrifugal force than it could be). Anyway, because John created space, while you stopped, he ends up creating momentum instead of you, and you can no longer join his because it is no longer there and he has changed his trajectory. Meaning, he can come back in to tackle you for a take-down irimi-style. In short, the lesson here is two-fold: 1) the inter-relatedness of centrifugal and centripetal forces depending on your position in the turn and 2) the idea of countering, like with like...
I really appreciate what you're doing with this series of videos.
There are a few points that I think are worth considering in this exploration:
1) What is the goal?
There were a couple of times where, after the initial off-balance, uke was so screwed that if you had continued forward pressure, you probably could have bellied him out pretty easily. If our goal is "put the bad guy on the ground", we may not even need the portion of this sequence that IS iriminage. However, if the goal is "perform this archetypal version of iriminage", then we end up building in the tactically questionable choice of allowing our opponent to regain his balance, and then try to retake it in the opposite direction. Which leads to my next point...
2) What is the context?
No technique is perfect. There are counters for everything. Just because we discover a flaw in a technique, or a situation where it doesn't work, that doesn't mean the technique is bad. It means the technique is probably not appropriate for that context. To return to the example above, when we have already off-balanced our opponent "nose-over-toes", it doesn't make a lot of sense contextually to then try to finish him off with a technique that requires him to be off balance "head-over-heels". But what if the reason we let him stand back up is that we can't stop him? What if his counter to our initial movement is to stand up? In doing so, he hands us the momentum to perform iriminage. So in this instance we're really practicing two techniques, where iriminage as a secondary, contingency attack. That is one context in which iriminage is effective. If context doesn't inform the way we practice, then we can miss out on a lot.
3) This is a great article about context in the martial arts: www.wimsblog.com/2009/08/mma-sucks-traditional-martial-arts-suck-more/?fbclid=IwAR3vyB-h9Y5jpbYzX7PtncGYqbG6wJkR-9VlWUPMTX2NUP6_D6SYuOH2LiY
Happy journeys!
Isn`t Aikido mostly based on the sword? for instant by Nishio-- a copy of the sword movement-- hense the big chop at first--
MrPedur it’s obvious that it was based on a vertical katana strike that was modified. The founder of aikido indeed based much of the footwork from sword arts.
Well yes, Samurai were the first to use this. It is about using their opponents strength and momentum against them
Exactly my thought. Thats why Aikido is not viable anymore as an effective martial arts. Its a defense against an attacker that you will never face.
If you try to make it work you create a "stupid" attacker as they say it in the video ^_^ but its just unnatural.
An untrained (stupid) attacker will attack with a right swing...or with a left swing if he is left handed. Or he will try to grab you.
just a straight punch or a standing arm trianglechoke (like the bjj instructor naturally went for in his first attempt to copy the aikido technique) will defend you against almost every untrained person.
Joachim Thome It's still viable if you imagine someone smashing you with a chair or beer bottle
@@skydragon23101979 I thought about that point before but it does not add up.
1. The scenario, where sb attacks you with an improvised weapon before having an escalation of another form is super unlikely.
2. And as i mentioned somewhere else, even if that scenario would happen you would not recognize it because there is no pattern recognition established for varying stressful situations.
Hope my explanation makes sense.
Its sometimes hard to explain things theoretically that need to be experienced.
Good BJJ guys, but someone like Roy Dean would be more insightful since he knows the feel of a well executed aikido technique as well have a blackbelt in that and lived as an uchideshi. When they executed it here, it lacked the parts that make aiki work (when it does), e.g. , curling arm to break the alignment of spine, upright posture of nage to keep big muscles engaged, flowing movement without hesitation. If you have strong aiki movement, you can mess up sometimes and it is okay, however resisting uke's tend to foil the technique at key points. I practiced aikido (2nd dan) and judo (3rd kyu) a while and now work on BJJ (4 stripe purple). My aikido shows up in my bjj, not when I am fighting a higher belt or someone who is likely to beat me, but when there's a big skill gap or in relaxed smoothness of drilling.
it's good to see you back to battle testing aikido
I think there is an interesting question that needs to be asked is what makes a specific martial art that martial art.
I've come up with 5 different interconnected things:
1) Techniques
2) Training methodology
3) Philosophy
4) Sparring/play style
5) Cultural elements
The body can only move in so many ways and has specific weakness so given a specific set of rules there will be a fixed number of optimal techniques and training methods. However this leaves plenty of room for differences to make styles unique.
Take capoeira, I have seen "functional capoeira" and it is kickboxing. However there are unique cultural, philosophical and sparring/play elements that make capoeira different from kick boxing.
Let the aikido guy do the technique. Imagine the reverse: explain a BJJ technique to two guys who never tried it, then let them discuss on how effective it is, when none of them is really able to apply it properly. It doesn't make much sense.
It should be noted they never actually tried it full speed. I've been on the receiving side of it, I was told to do quite a convincing attack (hitting the center of the head with a closed fist downwards punch), well the result was interesting. I was slammed down hard. Now I'm a judo guy and the other guy knew it so zero damage taken but I know a hard fall when I feel it, and I almost felt like he didn't touch me. In judo there are few throws with a hard fall but still a light feeling to them (some sacrifice throws for example). But in Judo usually you feel your opponent applying some force to you, you kinda feel and understand what's bringing you down. In that case I almost felt nothing. I had no idea why or how I was slammed in to the floor. Yes there are some judo throws like that too, you feel just a small contact and fly off your feet but usually they don't bring such a hard fall. I was impressed.
My proposal: grab a set of movie props, those fake glass bottles. Have the two BJJ masters try and smash them on the aikido guy's head. If you dont want to make a mess of shattered fake glass, get some foam batons. Try to get a clean shot on the guy's head. Not just a touch, a hit that makes a loud sound. Oh, and add a timer. The BJJ guys have only 5 seconds to hit him. The aikido guy can't just parry, he has to apply the throw. Imagine it's a real glass bottle, parrying with your naked arm is better than with your head, but still not ideal. The ideal is not being touched by the "bottle".
Now we can see if the technique works on a non cooperating partner, who still is trying to apply an attack and not just fainting it. I'm very curious on how the aikido guy would do in such a scenario.
Never seen anyone punching that way. If a guy with an unbroken bottle comes after you like that, that technique may work, and so dozen others. But in most Bar fights, guys get hit with a bottle from behind...
And stabbing weapons, are use to stab. Very rare to be attacked with a stabbing weapon like that...maybe someone with a hammer or axe...but, that's a strech...
@@lancepabon No one said this technique works for any kind of attack. Nor that this technique catches punches. The idea is someone attacking you with some sort of heavy object, like a wrench or a prybar. Usually the angle of the attack is from above (to make better use of the weight), sometime from the side, very rarely from below. What they are studying here is one technique suitable for a direct hit to the head in straight vertical motion. That's one possibile angle of attack. For a different angle, see a different technique. One of the problem they have in the video is that at times the attack is completely weightless. The guy is not even remotely trying to hit the head with any kind of force. He's not unbalanced, and is able to switch to a grappling stance very quickly. That's why the defender says "i need to be faster", no they other guy needs to commit to the attack, not just faint it.
The point being, if you're studying one technique, and its praticality, in isolation, it's ok to create a situation in which you practice it with a non complying partner. But since you're trying to use one single technique, you need to confine your partner to one single type of attack as well. And you need to force him to perform a real attack, not just a touch.
Hence my idea. Turn it into a competition. 5 (o 10) seconds rounds. One has to hit the top of the head with a foam baton making a loud noise, the other has to perform the aikido technique (and only that, no parrying, no running away). Let's see who scores more points after 10 rounds.
@@TheMule71 The problem is though that this is pretty much the ONLY kind of attack aikido trains against. See what they've got against boxing-style punches and have a good laugh.
@@Kavafy Ok. I still say that I'm much more likely to be attacked by a random guy (possibly drunk) holding a bottle in a bar than by a pro boxer. Point is, I'm 5 ft 8 130 lb (if I'm converting correctly), basicly not conditioned at all; if Mike Tyson in his prime (or even now, btw I'm not much younger than him) or Fedor Emelianenko decide to attack me, there's no amount of any magical martial art training, be it BJJ, Judo, MMA, Krav Maga or Aikido that is going to be 'effective'. And that's by definition: make me 25 years younger, train me in BJJ, Muai Tai and MMA, and still it's not going to be effective due to the weight difference. Find a way to turn me into a heavyweight, still no go, because they're champions, and I'm not. Luckily, the world isn't full of Mikes or Fedors.
I still maintain that there are many more drunk guys in bars who try to pick up a fight with random people (and one could be me) than boxers or MMA athletes who do the same. I'm not really worried of being attacked by one of the latter.
Anyway, I'm not even arguing how effective Aikido is, I don't care. The premise of the video was to study an Aikido technique, why they decided to do so I could care less. The point is that the way they did it makes little sense to me and I suggested a different way. Nothing more, nothing less.
@@TheMule71 You don't have to be a pro boxer to throw straight punches. This attitude of, "as long as it's not Mike Tyson then I'm ok" is exactly the problem.
When the BJJ guys ask you about a technique against the shove, your response could have been Kiriage, to Suriage, to Iriminage. Quick and effective. You gotta study more before you learn other systems. But all systems are important.
I have never understood what martial artists meant when they said they were "seeking truth" in their art. What does "truth" have to do with fighting?? Now I understand. Seeking truth means admitting ignorance. And this is the most honest search for truth I have ever seen.
I really love the authenticity of your videos and this one is my favorite. It really breaks down what it means to study other traditions and learn from their tenants into practical steps. I feel like I learned something!
Thank you!
4:19 had me on the floor laughing! :)
Haha! I'd laughed out loud so bad too at this moment when I was editing the video ;DD
@@MartialArtsJourney good point... but why not explain why, or change the attack to another equivocal ...
I don't see any atempt to input any better way to do that Aikido technique. 1º) The BJJ Experts didn't take the spirit of the tecnhique. They don't move the body the way that is donne in Aikido, to make this technique. If the agressor moves the had forward and brakes the body , the Aikidoka will change the way he move the agressor body. So, it will be better to choose an Expert do show the technique to the BJJ Experts and so this ones try to do what they says they are doing. Best regards.
He got beat up and now he just shits on his art. Sometimes people need to accept that they're not good fighters, no matter what style.
I used to train Ju-Jutsu (kind of a mixture of Judo, Karate and Aikido). We would train this techniques but not as a response to this chop but as a defence against a spinning backhand and one thing I remember is that it only works with the enemys momentum. Your opponent needs to overcommit. The "leaning forward" part is then a result of the spinning and them loosing balance. The "folding" back up and taking them down is then a result of just letting them run into your arm and their momentum taking the lower part forward.
Ignoring the people who are like commenting on. Oh you're just dissing Aikido, I don't think there is an issue at all. And certainly while the version of Irimi seems to have certain flaws to begin with. It's always great to share the knowledge between fellow martial artists. Keep up the videos! They are great! Ignore the haters. Not to mention you have two highly experienced bjj players, so you should consider yourself very lucky they are entertaining your videos.
I really miss aikido now.
all the Aikido people raging, simple solution.
You grab a BJJ black belt and you pressure test it. THEN post a video response. until then your doing nothing but blow hot air.
I'd be fine if they try it with a blue belt
So I take a stick and hit the bjj guy right on the head, knowing from this video they really don’t expect that kind of attack.
Gotta agree with you there. Yeah, I won a fight by whipping my dick out and peeing on the guy. Pretty easy to say that. Quite another thing to test that out and show you a video of that actually working.
Irimi nage technique in Aikido is a serie of movements if we analyse it into hand and foot separately. With the hand solely, it is a sword move up to make a contact between the two swords against a chop down attack. The nice contact point will give the defender a little advantage in position towards the attacker’s elbow. The 2nd move in cutting down on the attacker’s hand will take the sword away rather than cutting over the attacker’s neck while the attacker has no way to attack in the 2nd move with his hand by any points from elbow to the tip of the sword. With more analysis to the foot movement, the aikidoka can neutralize a direct attack from any position between the two attacker’s shoulders. The key point of this technique is to neutralize the attack then synchronize the attack with defender (uke) ‘s movement. The nage ( throw) at the end is just the final result of all correct steps ahead. I found many variations from the basic technique in application.
The missing link with Aikido is that it is not unarmed combat. It's origin is close grappling in a sword fight. Which is why you have the attacks starting with a chopping motion and you step aside from the path of the blade and take him down. Over time it has been separated from the sword fighting background and made into something which is is not.
I was wondering where'd you'd been man, give us an update on your actual BJJ training.
Hi Mohseen! The last couple of videos were blowing up, so I stepped back to let the story unroll by itself as I am preparing new videos. Friday I will finally release my stand-up sparring footage! I've also started a separate channel for interviews and podcasts so that I could publish more content without it interfering with each other (CZcams algorithm stuff) and actually tomorrow I will be releasing a talk with Brian Walsh where I specifically mention you!
Here's the channel: czcams.com/channels/PF1LbQOdw6Ol_q9d8p8crQ.html
Holy shit! Brian is back baby! I love that guy. Really opened my eyes to striking (though I still suck at it). Well now I HAVE to watch the video now that's you've dragged me into it ;-) Looking forward to the new content on both channels mate :) See if you can hook up via stream with a dude named KwonKicker.
@@MohseenLala Hey Mohseen! Here it is: czcams.com/video/hxYmXR4NbQk/video.html
:) I've seen KwonKicker around online lately ;) Who knows, maybe we will connect up.
Rokas fixing their mics reminds me of mothers rubbing schmutz off a child's face... ;)
:D
This is what the Aikido community needs. MMA introduced a new concept of fighting so that every traditional art is going to have to make modification. MMA is just a mix of TMA . You guys are really demonstrating what is need in martial science!!
Very well done. What I find fascinating is the critical thinking on the part of the BJJ experts and how they are breaking down the movement. Why? you ask. Because Aikido was the culmination of Morihei Ueshiba's life long study in martial arts. Aikido is rooted in Ju Jitsu, Judo, Sumo, Spear, Sword, Jo. Evolution of technique. Movement. Balance
Aikido is about breaking a stable balance + opening and closing the attackers body by making opponents willingly or unwillingly overreach a usable limp that you can take advantage of and then add the physics of Aikido structure breaking to it. Big cirkels into small cirkels + understanding the triangles + the steps with accurate timing + weakpoints and especially the application of Aiki. Which is partly the true source of Aikido. I have never seen you use it effectively or ... Perhaps you dont know it maybe. Also what are you doing with 2 BJJ guys when trying to fix an AIKIDO technique?
Lenny Sly has all ready done a practical application video on IRIMI NAKE and it SHOULD be done by a skilled Aikido person who understand the modern world of real selfdefense. Not from other styles if you want to still call it an Aikido technique.
Otherwise your solutions starts to look more and more like a different Martial Art technique and not Aikido anymore. It is fine if the material is related to Aikido in and compliments Aikido's essence byt is you start changing applications that looses that essence it goes away from what Aikido is.
BJJ people think mostly bone-mechanically when grappling and you need to think more Bio-mechanically or at least know how to notice the difference and how kinetic energies operate internally through tensions + alignments anywhere to better understand both internal functions as well as external functions in all areas. Plus the potentials vs the limits of everything involved including the mental functions involved.
If you are just looking at fighting as reading a manual from BJJ, that simply does not have the right information you need and can NOT teach you how to solve this Aikido problem. A recipe for BJJ applications does not teach you better Aikido, period.
Learn these things: What is a natural body and mental response and how to always disrupt or deflect vs a pre-planned or anticipated responses. Nerves responses. Shielding vs Evading vs Deflecting + the potentials. What are you telegraphing to your opponent and what can you accurately read from your opponent body-language?
Do you have a good awareness over the entire situation + bodies you are in physical contact with or not and how to get it or even at distance? Can you overwhelm your opponent mentally/physically/both or counter the opponents counters and what does it take to successfully do it? What is the right method when making fast decisions every time under pressure? What makes what work and what makes them fail and how to solve it without replacing from other arts that uses entirely different principles? Etc.
Learn what tools you NEED to fix ANYTHING in Aikido and THEN attempt to update it. You cant explore the essence and potential possibilities of Aikido when using all the wrong tools like BJJ or MMA tools fx. They dont have that information unless someone gave it to them.
You can start by learning what internal Aiki is and also learn how to effectively and consistently create flinch responses that works to your advantage + explore what the body does internally in stages and in slowmotion at first (thoroughly with multilayered scope) and then speed it up gradually when the core stuff is figured out.
And last but not least.... Change the mega-telegraphing chopping Aikido attacks into real attacks like punches, kicks and grabs and learn from there. Also understand that Aikido is NOT waiting for an attack to connect before responding with any counter no. Respond either simultaneously or exactly between the opponents movements or right on contact with yielding or burst movements or footsteps to move and yield your full position or the targeted local position at the most surprising moment for the opponent. It is a skill you can learn and use from the Aiki stuff and more.
A few links about Aiki:
czcams.com/video/3NpoGWyKrtA/video.html
czcams.com/video/pyGUMyP67Oo/video.html
If you really want to fix or make Aikido effective then Lenny Sly is 1 of the first persons to talk to. Not BJJ guys that clearly dont care enough about Aikido.
czcams.com/video/FQHLSV3sIgw/video.html
Frankly it seems you dont care either anymore and try to hide your disbelieve on Aikido with these half hearted attempts to "FIX" Aikido because you have a grudge against it for wasting your time all these years. Your feelings is justified by being unaware that the traditional Aikido practice has fallen into a loop of peaceful play and lost it's core practice over time and haven't adapted either.
The way you do it does not achieve that, which means you fail to make it work. Try cut the entire technique in half. The second half is very easy while the first half is very hard if you dont know what you are doing. You must learn WHY that is internally and not only externally + during pressure testing.
Just because you cant make it work does NOT mean IT does not work. That's on YOU as a practitioner to not make sure that what ever you learn works or needs adjustments to work. The attacking chop guy must have feel a surprise push or a pull from somewhere it's easy to access. Also the chop could be made into a strait punch or push or reach for a grab instead or even a charge.
I think the left hand with or without palming the opponents elbow towards his body must control his head movement forward and redirect to one side as fast as possible to give you more time to get behind his back + it surprises him to stop or make a flinch.
This is easy to make work guys. Don't open up with a block or parry. Just slip to the outside and fire a right hand. It puts your head and arm in the exact position needed, catches your opponent in a clinch position whether or not they are moving forward, and if whether or not your punch lands you are in a dominant spot.
You guys are thinking aikido and jiujitsu, but the entry is basically a punch defense to a clinch...so think Floyd Mayweather. imo.
"i don't wanna fight this guy...cause this guy is really weird" hahahaha
🤣
Thank you to instructors for taking the time to help with this video!
I used to admire this guy for having the guts to question the techniques he's been taught for years. But now it just seems like he's embraced BJJ so much that he dismisses everything he learned from Aikido as garbage. The justification of the knifehand attack for example. I know that imagining a sword attack in today's setting would be ridiculous but that "sword" attack can very well be a pipe, a crowbar or even a knife. As a former instructor he should've been able to justify that. I'm perfectly aware that using PURE aikido is useless in a real fight, but not everything taught in aikido is useless. It's the same with taekwondo, kung fu, or pretty much every other traditional martial art.
Asking his BJJ coaches to try and "fix" aikido's "problems" is in bad taste in my opinion. It's like taking a vintage, non practical Rolls Royce to Ferrari and asking them to fix it to be more practical. You just don't do that.
Lastly, this guy just showed me that it wasn't COURAGE that made him question aikido, it was WEAKNESS. You can see it in his demeanor as well. He's easily manipulated into thinking a certain way and rejecting everything he learned in the past. To me this is NOT a man to be admired for he is unsure of himself. He relies on the Martial Art to make him better rather than improving his skill and making it his own to make the Martial Art he practices better.
Jun San Diego aikido is garbage for fighting, great for health
Try kickboxing or muay thai experts fixes Taekwondo technique?
Extremely interesting experiment. Knowing some aikido, I find it expecially useful to understand how BJJ guys "feel" and interpret this kind of technique. I can't help but think how it would have been to take advantage of their expertise in unbalancing and resistance by showing them the technique without any warning or previous instruction. I understand that it would have been dangerous, both the action and the reaction, so it's better to file them in first. Anyway, hats off for the open mindedness of anyone involved in this experiment. We need more of this to progress.
Trying to find nuggets of practicality and appliability using analysis and instructions from a more down-to-earth (no pun intended) art like BJJ does so much more for the authenticity and credibility of a martial art like Aikido than just taking the "Aikido is real fighting!" stance to the grave. I absolutely love this sort of martial experiment, very interesting and fun to watch.
I would suggest that before you try to make your Aikido "work against a resisting opponent" by letting people from outside correct your technique into a totally different thing that is NOT Aikido, you better try to learn more about the dynamics of the system you practiced for 14 years now. So better go and look for a teacher who can teach you something about structure, about body mechanics, about Aiki...If you want to learn BBJ oder MMJ, you can do, but you shouldn't do it because of your lack of understanding how Aiki techniques work, or how to keep structure. If you want to keep Aikido alive, you are not doing the issue any favours by searching for value in Aikido by changing its principles or by substituting them instead of comprehending and applying them properly.
maybe you should look for an aikido expert to join in
Don't get me wrong, I'm telling what I saw ... just add my two cents: the main point of irimi nage looks like to smash back of their head when they fall to the ground.
Imagine any hip throw. You create a pivot point with your hip and then you remove it and throw your opponent to the ground trying to deal as much damage from this fall as you can, right? It looks like same with irimi nage. Pivot point is created by the defender's lower arm. To me this technique seems difficult to apply but ... workable in some situations. And it looks like you can adjust it against any attacks coming from the top.
My background in JJ, BJJ and muay thai.
Don’t only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.”- L. Beethoven.
Please do not misrepresent, misportrayAikido with other martial arts to prove it is less effective than other. Take whatever one learns in one art , find its useful application and apply to other art. Principles do not change. Enter with forms , exit formless. Immerse oneself into the art to see its beautyand express its beauty with mind, body, spirit without harm to others. Your expert analysis of iriminage, coming from a disillusioned Aikido sandan of +14 years, BJJ black belt expert of 20 + years cross trained and brown belt expert has flaws.
BJJ solution-- Simply weave through like a boxer, take the back, move to choices: guillotine, rear naked choke, take down into kata jime, jugi gatame , other oasaekomi as similar to judo ne waza etc...Certainly, Mr Rokas knows iriminage as he is a sandan??? Whether he misguided his BJJ experts with his demos to prove his point or not perform it correctly is a question for reader to ponder about his intent/motive, technical sandan qualification. A wise teacher would think far about Mr.Rokas "sincere inspiration of my BJJ coach and myself to understand andfind value in Aikido." I do not have a black belt in any art.This is my personal understanding of Iriminage.
Shomenuchi, (head strike) is a prototype of uppergate strike/cut/punch. The iriminage concept demonstrates maai, chusin sen, zanshin, zen, ashi waza,awase, shikaku, kuzushi, kake.
Maai- safe distance to begin( uke arm length + nage arm length), not grappling like BJJ with gi or collar tie without gi. (concept speed= distance /time) Here one starts with sen, sen no sen, go no sen. ( a topic to understand) Simply what nage do with uke's intent-awareness of uke, zanchin, pre-emptive counter move, during move, or action-reaction - go no sen). This is zen mind moving with body in still motion and vice versa- body move with a calm mind without fear, anger, self doubt ( another concept)
Chusin sen- center line concept: hand/arm, elbow in center as seen in wingchun, iaido, boxing, aikido, kendo. with offense/defense in one to protect midline structures- head, nose, jaw,throat, chest, solar plexus, abdomen, private area. BJJ expert demonstrated Mr. Rokas' strike with hand in lateral shoulder line , therefore telegraphs and leaves center open. Mr Rokas surely knows this?
Ashi waza: foot step. also called entry or iriminage ( another concept/technique). Demonstrated video shows one way to get in close. Again V=D/t. Close combat (BJJ) vs Distance combat( Aikido) to think about, aside from standing versus ground discipline.
Awase: jiu concept of blending, borrow parnter's force by forearm deflection, occupy ukecenter line( 2 objects cannot occupy same space at same time in physics). Aikido, wing chun, kendo, iaido do this. Then nage adds his own force to uke force ( as seen in merging traffic sign), or arm drag ( as in BJJ) to take uke's kuzushi balance and then take the back.
Shikaku- blindspot or advantageous angular position to strike . Kendo,Iaido, Aikido, boxer, wing chun uses this concept to strike without being struck simply by half a step rhythm. Here is when uke's side is exposed from head to toe for strike. Head , temple, throat, nape of neck , axilla( armpit nerve, artery, vein), rib, liver/spleen (depending which side executed), knee ( collateral ligament injury if kicked) and legs for karate, iaido to cut off, kendo, judo , BJJ take down techniques.
Kuzushi: Aikidokas simply execute omote or ura iriminage version. Omote: nage controls uke neck/head with other hand , hip aligned with uke's hip with turn to generate ,set up ( traffic sign) to add force ( summation of vectors asforce is represented by vector with magnitude and direction mathematically) then turn back 180 degree into uke. this is when uke mustknows ukemi as his throat is about to be straight arm as in wrestling and knows how to take a fall. URA: version demonstrates centripetal force concept; replace uke's body center of gravity with nage 's center ( to become ONENESS in concept, in body and mind,as in seeing the unke's intent, anger, fear, doubt)and disspipate uke's energy if his approaching force vector is strong.
Kake: execution with techniques that your discipline Art- BJJ, JUDO, Aikido, Iaido dictates ( to kill or not to kill)---before you raise your arm, lower your temper!!!! sword sheathed on unsheathed crossroad decision.
One can execute same iriminage technique/movement with jo staff, bokken for weapon training (empty hand Aikido technique has its relationship with sword movement).Hence, the form is seen with uke's hand empty had cutting down on Nage's head. "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee. Please review the critiqued iriminage performed by the founder's grandson again and judge for yourself. If the BJJ experts just simply say Aikido is a beautiful art, then It is a beautiful art to those who truly understand its genetic make-ups having read the interpretations, thoughts on the subject Iriminage given above. One enjoys the beautiful rose, orchid flower, though he might not know its genetic variants, make-ups, how they survive the climates to the stage where they are arranged for him to view, enjoy? and simply comment its beauty?Aikido has survived feudal time and is a culmination of techniques with its current use in civilian police force in many countries. What is the end point of pressure testing? to prove that is is effective, lethal, elevate one's ego or just merely debate whether a defensive Art? The choice to attack or defend, to be evil or good is inherent to one's human nature. Noises aside, how would one feel if one successfully straight arm another in the throat in a competition that one cannot control his use of force, emotion? lawsuit, death, injury happened as in UFC? Invincible? Nuture a child, endow him knowledges, be selective with your ART before you turn him into killers, criminals to the civilians. What is the practitioner's code of honors to his art discipline?. Mr. Rokas, Look in the mirror. You owe yourself a moral, ethical obligation and perhaps refunds to your former Aikido students. You once put on a hakama many years to present yourself as an Aikido teacher but has not known its code to date. Do not blame the Art, as it is inanimate waiting for one to correctly bring it alive.
As human beings we are. Beauty is the eye of the beholder. Martial art is a journey of self discovery. Plateau, progression, fear, doubt, failure, success... are challenges. SUIGETSU. What does one see when he reflects himself in the mirror? conduct oneself in regard to his demeanor. RESPECT all arts and express its beauty the DO way that you know with your mind, body and spirit. Do not tarnish your Arts but polish them and leave them to future generation to learn.
PEACE to All, HAPPY HOLIDAYS
the foot work is the key element ...ikido is so intresting when it comes to footwork
rokas, you might wanna visit yamagata sometime and find funakoshi sensei. nage needs to be aggressive and mean it. atemi is not a fake. if uke does not protect himself, atemi is not different than a real strike. if nage looks less aggressive than uke, it's a mistake. if uke looks more in control and balanced than nage, it's a mistake.
Funnily enough after watching the video I came to the exact opposite conclusion they came.
Once you got rid of all the "noise" in the technique, it worked, albeit in an ugly fashion, but the man was down. Are there many other options to take someone down? Sure, but did this technique put the man down? It did.
Sure, they quickly came up with solutions to nullify it, but once you dissect any technique you start finding the holes, that's just how the game goes. About it looking like wrestling or judo, I wouldn't mind too much about it, it is a grappling art, it will look like grappling. But once you give it a different flair, it might become something interesting. BJJ looks a lot like judo to someone outside it, but the different flairs make them two very different arts.
Alvaro Wang once a fully resisting opponent is added, even without the "noise", it’s still not a fighting art.
Shodokan Aikido (Tompki Aikido) combines Judo and Aikido. They have full contact free sparring (randori).
The more practical they make the techniques look, the more it looks like wrestling
All right Rokas. I liked your channel and felt somewhat similar about Aikido for a while. I went around and visited other classes I guess similar to you. In the end, I ended up back in an Aikido club. I trained in different styles of Aikido whilst the main style I received my black belt was Aikikai. Thanks to Aikido, I have survived serious bicycle accidents with mere scratches and very little bruises. I survived an attack by two guys high on cocaine 200 metres away from home in London and survived a stabbing attempt without a scratch in North London.
In this video, everyone seemed to have been hung up on how stupid Aikido attacks are. Or at least got really hung up on how to initiate the attack. In fact, it should be totally irrelevant.
I understand you practised Aikido for 14 years.
If so, you should understand the "attacks" are like that, because they are not meant to be attacks.
They signify the line of the attack. Whether it is done empty handed or with a weapon it doesn't matter. Shomen uchi is the very basic line of attack.
Your demonstration of Irimi Nage was poor especially considering your posture and timing. I understand you try to demonstrate it to a black belt BJJ sensei. Respect or not you should demonstrate something with the best of your knowledge. Using your elbow to push the back of your uke breaks your posture. Your arm is not meant to be hanging towards the centre of your uke. I was shocked the BJJ guy didn't rip your arm out for that mistake. I really liked your videos in the beginning. Your arguments were valid to a certain point, whether or not the way Aikido is taught is the most effective to apply on the street. All depends on perspective. Aikido community is really stubborn and I encountered a lot of resistance against trying untraditional ways to pressure test Aikido in dojos. However, I see some others as well who started their journey on refining these methods instead of completely abandoning their art and criticising the heck out of Aikido.
I still don't know what to think about you. I try to see your intention in a positive way. It is less and less possible though.
When I am asked if Aikido works I never tell people: sure it does against icepicks and swords.
Instead, do Aikido or any other grappling art at least twice a week. Get thrown around for at least 60 times on each training. That will give you at least 3000 falls and recovery.
When simple accidents happen you have a better chance of getting out without a scratch than any other person who falls once or twice a year at most.
That is all anyone should think of any grappling art or sport. On the street getting out alive doesn't have much to do with your dojo training, but luck. BJJ people find it hard to believe that while choking or arm-baring someone they are vulnerable to getting stabbed in the back. All you need is luck or even better, don't be there in the first place.
PS: I like your gi too. ;)
Really they turned Aikido into Judo by way of BJJ training. The bottom line of this technique is you push the person forward against their will, and when they naturally try to stand up, you thrown them on their back with their own momentum. However you get into it, that's the only part that is useful. If they don't try to stand up, you have to bail. If you can't get them going forward, you have to bail.
Isn't aikido like a derivative of ju jutsu anyway (specifically, daito-ryo jujutsu which featured more standup technique but was notorious for not teaching the practicioners right technique and keeping that secret instead) and judo is one as well (but different branch of jujutsu)? :) And BJJ being a derivative of judo and jujutsu, featuring more ground technique focus of judo with more of jujutsu grappling moves rather than throws...
So yeah, old masters often were annoyingly secretive so I'd say no really good jujutsu survived... You'd have to dig really deep to get it out or recreate it from practice which is what BJJ attempts. (Like what HEMA does with manuscripts and fencing.)
More like they turned it into BJJ, but close enough
The way I was taught is if they don't try to stand up, you do another technique. In the basic we strike towards their face to induce the backwards motion, but it's not strictly necessary. Depending on where uke's weight is, there are different variations to make sure they end up on the floor. The difficulty lies in knowing them, being able to recognize the appropriate thing to do in each situation and being able to pulling them off. That's why we practice.
I don't understand why Rokas doesn't search out Aikido teachers if he wants to better understand Aikido techniques. These guys are giving him something different, which -- don't get me wrong -- is fine and enriching. I think that Rokas is not searching elsewehere because he wants to hear that he was taught wrong stuff instead of admitting that he should have sought more education. In other words, it's someone else's fault that he's not become the killing machine that he aims to be. But that's just me playing a psychoanalyst. I'm curious where this leads and whether there's salvation in rebranded judo throws.
The problem with the technique is not really the throw, which can be made to work after being slightly less flashy, tighter and with more of a grab, most of the time. The problem is entry which just fails if the guy keeps hands in front of his face and/or immediately responds and that it requires black belt class of accuracy to even perform right against someone who does not in a dynamic sparring context.
Hmm. But then, Rokas is looking for better teachers, just not in world of Aikido. Presumably he tried there and failed? (There's some evidence in the channel's video history.)
Personally, I think aikijutsu (even more aikido) is a specialized limited approach and just not general enough even if done with best effort and improved by live practice, but it is a tool in a toolbelt. Its basics and even advanced techniques just do not quite work in most situations against an opponent who knows what they're doing. Obviously they will work against someone who does not, but then anything does. Now, that does not make it worthless by any means, but not a thing you should do or go for first...
If I were to look for that in the history, this is probably because the masters only gave some flawed basic technique to most of their students and not the complete art to keep dominance and secrecy, pick their own successors. Then some guy thought he was good and started his own branch. Typical move in ancient Asian martial arts.
thank you guys for showing respect to other arts and trying to understand the meaning of the move by breaking it down to the basic. it shows honor MMA for life
Jiujitsu’s opponent process of refinement is more beautiful to watch than the most perfectly executed aikido technique.
Pressure test for realsies. Get a bunch of kendoka and a bunch of aikidoka with helmets and see how many throws happen. Even if it's just men over and over, if you vary the rhythm, you'll get to see if you would get cut.
That being said, I still have hope for aikido. Shorten the techniques, create connection, and lose the terrible submissions and it starts to look like a conceptual thai boxing clinch or greco fight.
You will only ever find BJJ guys trying to "Fix" a technique that was developed by actual professional Samurai warriors, who fought in life and death combat against sword wielding attackers on a daily basis. You can't just watch a video on CZcams of a Japanese master and then form a focus group of people, who don't even practice those techniques, don't acknowledge the origins of their own martial art (some Judo newaza techniques robbed from a book and given new names), decide that there is an issue that needs fixing and proceed to completely misinterpret what is going on. You might as well have asked the local cake baking ladies club to fix it. You need to execute any technique like this at least 1000 times, until it becomes a conditioned reflex. But only after a person who is a master has explained the technique's underlying principles in detail and under their expert guidance and supervision. After that you may have a rudimentary understanding the technique, but will not be in any way qualified to critique it. In this video, the Aikido guy does understand the technique, but the 2 BJJ guys really have no clue. Why then are they talking like they are some kind of Aikido authority? It shows utter lack of respect, total egotism and absolute ignorance. I am a Judoka. It would be completely bizarre for me or any of the Judoka I know, to make a video like this, implying problems with a technique as executed by a Japanese master, and being so arrogant as to then try and fix said imaginary problems. Judo and Aikido are really two branches of one tree. So I can look at an Aikido master and appreciate the perfection of the both the techniques themselves, as well as their execution. They are not to be tampered with by idiots. If you want to fix something, take a look at BJJ and see if you can find a way to turn it into a fully comprehensive fighting system. I.e. back into Kodokan Judo.
@@ZedF86 The best way to explain it is to use carpentry as an analogy. It's like guys who are not carpenters, taking a technique as used by the ancient Egyptians and trying to 'adapt' it to be used for modern construction. The thing is, ancient Egyptians were expert carpenters. So modern day plumbers taking the dovetailing of a timber beam for jointing, as practiced by ancient Egyptians, and trying to adapt it, is not going to yield anything useful. Dovetailing is as useful now as it was then. It makes a fantastic joint between timbers. Just do it the way it's supposed to be done as passed down from the old masters!
@Rhayne Lyte Twist things much? I'm assuming that because your school maths teacher taught you trigonometry, you understand that it's not a "myth" that ancient Egyptians, Greek and Chinese mathematicias devised the trigonometric techniques many hundreds of years ago. Although it IS true that Pythagoras did not personally found your Highschool or compile it's math curriculum and was long dead when it first opened it's doors. No one ever said that Samurai founded Aikido. However, Samurai did invent ALL Jujitsu techniques. Techniques which were practiced in the Japanese Jujitsu Ryus, were meticulously preserved unalteredand and handed down through generations (Just like trigonometry). Samurai may have since died out, but their techniques absolutely did not. Those techniques were compiled unaltered into Judo and Aikido by the respective founders of each ryu (as opposed to plucking them out of thin air). Its not a myth at all, but a FACT. Note: The Jujitsu I am referring to has nothing to do with Brazilian "Juijitsu", which is Judo being taught badly with little acknowledgement of its historical context. I.e. The techniques in BJJ are simply Judo waza, banned Judo waza or Japanese Jujitsu waza, being taught badly and under a dishonest narrative about their origins (Stripped of their official Japanese names, attribution of techniques to Gracies, etc, etc). Maybe learn some martial arts history before you make ignorant comments about something you know nothing about.
Watching more. Some problems. He is getting out of the technique because he is not committing to the the attack but feeding you a half committed attack (because he does not understand the attack?). Second point that seems lost although the aikido guy did says it at the start, this second part, the reversal, only works because uke is being pressed down resistists it by trying to stand back up:: you take this resistance to the downward pressure and amplify it to turn him over. If uke instead goes down to the mat, then this technique will not work, you must change your response. Min 10:33
This was super interesting. These guys were just being hindered by the audio setup. But, this was an amazing analysis of a MA technique.
bjj expert say only stubbed attack with up hand shomnuchi attack in real attack will be with knife but we can not use knife with beginners so we use empty hand but you did not explane this bjj expert
Why don't you teach beginners something they can actually use?
Nice.
Now do a video of how to do a proper guard pull to triangle choke in a battle field full of thousands of soldiers with swords.
This video was amazing. I hope we'll see similar videos in the future.
This is a very good method of reflecting on things (anything in general) critically and to question assumptions in order to generate continuous improvement!
When you try to fix something, you have to make sure you do understand how that thing works, so you know if it really goes wrong. These two Jujitsu practitioners do not understand why someone would do a shomen-uchi to them. It is a training system that evolves from kenjutsu. The irimi-nage is not grappling, but a way to use sword. When a opponent does a men-uchi to you, you do irimi, so you can cut your opponent from the side (ura). So, you need to move like using a sword instead of grappling.
Aikido Doshu's demonstration is to demonstrate the principle I describe above.
Or you can try another pressure test with a Kendo practitioner to do men-uchi to those two Jujitsu practitioners to see how their fix works.
I think those bjj guys are more realistic in their approach. Since they spar and compete they know what works under stressful situations. So maybe it would be beter to give the bjj guys a (fake) knife and see how it resolves. Afterwards you can look back at were you can improve. I have done both mma and krav maga annd krav maga was more like aikido (in learning) and mma more like bjj (more sparring etc). I always say (compared to football/soccer) that krav maga was my set piece (like corner kicks, penalty kicks and free kicks) were everything is controlled and you know how to react. The rest of the game (the chaos part) was more my mma were I need to adjust constantly and you are constantly looking to adjust because every person moves different etc.
Awesome end note! "Helio Gracie already saved Aikido, he just called it 'Jiu-Jitsu'" - Coach Cane Prevost
That was a statement made out of arrogance. I just take that as an error by a well meaning guy who talked before he thought.
What's amazing is that Aikido was derived as a training method in which dangerous moves could be practiced at faster speeds to faster developed the principle of AIKI that exists in any art . Ueshiba did not want completion because it would slow things down. What's amazing though is that judo was also derived from Japanese jujitsu styles. KONO Intentional watered down and took out technique to be less dangerous.and create a sport. BBJ derived from Kono's judo,. So what's amazing is that people thinks a sports creation is more dangerous . Granted a lot of what's presented as Aikido sucks , changed by people that didn't understand the philosophy now the training.
@@michealpuckett8856 you could not be more wrong
@@hattorihaso2579 I can't speak to the Aikido aspect, but JJJ leading to the creation of Judo and BJJ is accurate. So I guess he could be more wrong
James Owens I was thinking about Nishio Sensei and how he said to create your own aikido techniques using your imagination, and in a sense that is exactly what Helio did. Any art that manifests expressions of aiki is truly an exponent of the rhizome whose history centers around the art of daito ryu but whose legitimacy is more bound to natural occurrences in physical interactions. There's lots natural expressions of aiki in BJJ although it isn't necessary to the art. I think it's interesting to look at BJJ techniques in terms of aikido terminology. Preliminarily you see that subtle variations have whole different names in BJJ. Omoplata and kimura could just be called ikkyo if you apply the aikido naming conventions. Aikido then is necessarily more preliminary in it's categorization system, because it's based on principle not technique. If you look at it this way it's easy to see aikido as a sort of Rosetta Stone of the aiki related arts. The principles have a life that techniques just don't. That's why cooperative training can be more effective to communicate the feeling even though the practical applications have to be mercilessly subjected to rigorous testing which BJJ excels at. So the two arts can be related coherently but who's got that on their agenda? Not many. . . Which I find curious given its potential to magnify the efficacy of is actors, but understandable when put against the barrier of integrating Japanese cultural and spiritual practices into your training which is a drawback to aikido for many people.
I love this concept. The approach, the openmindedness of everyone...just a very well thought-out video. Kudos to everyone there. Keep up the journey!
I'm so happy that you all are doing this. It's testing the unknown in some type of way
While I appreciate the effort, I feel like you could greatly progress their so called 'experiment', by giving more from your experience, like explaining them that when the technique starts ideally uke must already be a bit out of balance.
The attack itself should mimic knife or bottle (originally sword movement) but obliviously you know it , and it's also obviously for learning purposes, so I don't see much point making laugh about it.
Also - it looks pretty obvious to me that some of the uke attacks like the pushing cannot create momentum and movement which would fit for this technique, I would love to see some nikio applied there by them.
Rock on and keep up the videos.
Maybe a bit some editing would make it shorter and more straight to the point.
Thanks for sharing with us :)
Mike Green And
The attack makes no sense coming from a knife or sword or anything long. It is most likely designed against a mace, short stick, bottle or similar blunt implement that's unsuitable for thrusting. Even then it's eh because the attacker is a raging bull charging forward instead of just swinging their weapon. Without that element the whole technique does not work as the guy with the weapon has reasonable footwork that will be hard to exploit without creating your own momentum - just by standing normally. Pulling an opponent by their weapon arm is much, much harder than expected and usually not worthwhile.
Of course none of this fits the philosophy of aikido only ever trying to use strength directed at you against your opponent - you move and do the clothesline instead of anything aikido otherwise. :) Or go for an underhook.
We laugh about it because it doesn't work.
@@NefariousPorpoise like Mike Green was saying, it should mimic a ( lets keep it simple) a bottle attack. I bet most people never been attacked with a bottle. But it doesn't take a lotta imagination that the attacker will run forward at you with bad intentions. Its only funny when you are ignorant enough to believe its a impossible way to attack..
That technique where the aggressor comes from top should be used against medium range weapons ONLY (like bars, planks, brooms, that sort of thing - DO NOT TRY ANYTHING AGAISNT BLADES!)
This kind of training were put to practice some centuries ago during the age of samurai, a warrior focused on combat and killing, not common folks like us who just want some tips of self defence.
First of all, why are you being attacked by someone who's holding a metal bar f.e.?
Try to avoid that kind of situation.
What if you're living that thing and needs a reaction? Well, first reaction should be: RUN or at least try to outsmart the aggressor, but don't put your body against a weapon.
What if things escalated so quickly (for some reason) that I don't have anything else besides resisting? Then use this technique, do it quickly and take control of the situation... of course you'll need a lot of training over this kind of situation (which is not so uncommon out there) and you'll have to trust this kind of art (MMA won't teach you this)
Now you see.... martial arts have their histories, and they are functional to specific kinds of scenarios. Most of them are very old, and will NOT apply to our time, against new fighting systems and fire weapons (no martial art beats fire weapons... NEVER... don't bother trying it out).
Try mixing these:
. MMA
. BJJ / Judo
. Pugilism / Muay Thai
. Aikido / Silat
. Krav Maga
Kung Fu won't save you anymore, but it's a good practice for healthy reasons.
Ninjutsu is trained by some elite police and special forces out there, but for other reasons but self defence. It's a "don't try this at home" style.
NEVER trust those "fitness" self defence systems, NEITHER those "women defence". Girls... just practice the raw stuff and get good.
Last thing and most important...
... BE SMART! Use your head!! Avoid dangerous situations at all costs! Be patient, be polite, use everything you can before engaging into a fight. Try to train with a partner and sparr WITH RESISTANCE! Ask your sparring partner to resist what you've trained, try to understand what is real and what is fantasy. Repeat it as much as you can, adapt, get better and change position and become the aggressor, trying to feel your limits and what could be done to stop you. MAKE IT REAL!
AND RAISE THAT GUARD!!!!
Aikido is an off spring from aikijujtsu.All beginners know it.
Aikjutsu is a jujutsu style .
Everything that we see is just a suggestion in different situation of a possible position in a fight with or without weapons.
Once grammar is learned....then this method of studying the applications possibilities in a fight ,comes in.
Letters..grammar..syntax...and then one can write an essay.
I love the co structure methodically systematic approach you all worked on!
What not a lot of people know is that the founder of Aikido started with Japanese Jiujitsu and multiple other arts. The training he was doing at a younger age was very aggressive and random like they are suggesting. He went through some hard times in life - killed people in a massive gang vs government battle - went to war - and discovered he was really getting despondent with all the death and harm the fighting was causing. So his answer to that was to take a set of his favourite Jiu jitsu techniques and modify them to do lesser harm but still give control. Thus Aikido.
He was partly successful with this. There is still more development to do to attain this. But this means the training has become very soft and compliant to try to promote the very free relaxed rapid movement required. Extremely hard to obtain this level of free movement - called ki extension in Aikido. it is one of the elements that is considered woo-woo by many people. It sort of is woo woo and sort of is not. If you follow the traditional version of it then yep it is woo woo. But other teachers use extending ki as more of a mind set to make sure you are at a flowing relaxed state while moving.
"If you do all that, it will become just Judo."
Surely these martial arts experts know that Aikido was created by a person who actually trained in Judo (among other arts)?
Gorm Kirton they do know that. Doesn’t change the comment, nor reality that Aikido is a cool movement art, not a martial art.
BJJ vs Judo
Also, I was waiting this
"Hi, I'm stupid and I'd like to do this!" Hahaha!
I'm a firm believer in sparring. I think that even the most laughed at MA's could benefit from some kind of full contact light sparring to either A) Debunk the technique entirely because it just doesn't work on real people, or B) Show what works or at least show what needs to be tweaked for it to work. Of course this also requires cross sparring with other people, yeah a technique might work on someone else doing the same thing on you but it does it work on this boxer? Or this wrestler? Of course this is the same evolutionary path that transformed different MA's into what they are today for things like MMA.
This is one of the things that I think Aikido needs, I remember when I used to train in it. A lot of things just wouldn't work how they are supposed to on live people, let alone trained fighters. And yeah you can say it was designed for unarmed combat against a sword, but even then it doesn't make sense. Anyone competent with a sword is going to be using the range of the sword to attack anyway making a lot of that really hard. Even in HEMA you can usually throw in grappling while sparring and doesn't happen anything like Aikido tries to show because it's a live resisting opponent. I don't necessarily think Aikido is useless but I do think it needs a modern revamp.
The real target should be the "self defense systems" which I'm convinced is one of the modern era's biggest scams, but I guess that's a rant for another day.