I respect Fedora for dropping X11. It will never really be deprecated until distros start dropping it. It also means fewer man-hours being distracted with X11 support.
I trust fedora they are doing things the right way, you have to be an extremist to be against opt in data collection with a lot of documentation of what they are going to do.
fedora is linux experiment ground, everyone benefit with their contributions since is open source software that everyone can potentially use, not just red hat. Fedora is key to the linux ecosystem.
I'd like to compliment your audio; it's almost always excellent. Turned 50 and the cranked 80s rock of my yut is coming back to haunt me a little. So TY. 😀
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoy the effort I put into the audio, there’s quite a bit of post processing each week so very happy it’s noticed and appreciated 😎👍
Fedora has always been Red Hat's experiment ground, and they have a track record of doing stuff like this (hell, they were among the first to make Wayland the default on the GNOME session) so I'm hardly surprised that when the option to build GNOME without X11 came, that Fedora took it. Edit: It's great that the GNOME extension website is getting an update! It's basically been the same since the start of extensions around the release of GNOME 3.2, and it really needs an overhaul.
Fully agree with your polite rant about Gnome extensions being overly hard for a Linux newbie to learn about and use. Certain gnome extensions are a big reason why I didn't abandon Linux after switching from Windows. I encourage the Gnome devs to directly integrate some of the more popular extensions into Gnome as options. Especially Dash-To-Panel.
For the record, you cannot close the OEM setup that GNOME has. GNOME is non-functional until it is finished, as that is where your user account is set up. So I think its actually better if it's there, personally.
I didn’t know it requires involvement, I know I once closed it without going through it but that was a while ago and I don’t remember which version of GNOME I was using at the time
Thunderbird uses a yearly release schedule as of now, but they're planning to make monthly releases. Previously , monthly releases were beta versions. The last "ESR" is Thunderbird 115 Supernova. I tjink they're also planning to support threaded conversations. For now, there's an extension that works really well.
Oh I see they just don’t label stuff as ESR like I don’t believe 115 was labeled that way. It’s great they are planning to support threaded conversations! Thanks for sharing the info! I have tried the extension for that feature and it’s been really wonky for me so I stopped using Thunderbird at that time
@@michael_tunnell I think my previous comment(s) were hidden as potential spam due to the links, but what I said without the links was: Yeah, 115 doesn't seem to have been officially labelled as an ESR (in fact, in a post last year regarding the lack of Thunderbird Sync in 115 they said "We don’t have a solid release date, but our objective is to have Thunderbird Sync finished in time for the next ESR release, or shortly after we switch to a monthly release schedule"). The last official ESR notification I found was for Thunderbird 78 from 2020.
I'm not a developer, so have no need for an IDE, Sublime has filled my simple needs for years. But I was curious about Zed so installed the preview version yesterday from the AUR to try out. My impressions? As advertised, it's blazing fast. Uses Vulkan for rendering, so that probably helps too. If you open a file type that it has extensions for, it offers to install them. The interface is clean, if a little confusing at first. Settings are JSON and pretty easy to understand and edit. Depends on Node for a lot of it's extensions and other things, so it's user directories can grow pretty fast. Overall, I say it has potential. However, it's still pretty young. There's a lot of languages it has no support for, or only rudimentary at best. I can see in the future it being real competition for VS Code, it's certainly way faster with a smaller footprint. It's got a lot of potential, but it's not there yet. I wish the devs all the luck, they have a real competitor in that space on their hands. As said, I'm not a developer and have no need for an IDE. I kicked the tires for a while, was fairly impressed, and uninstalled it. Sublime still fills all my needs.
A note about your wishlist item for better threads (conversations) in Thunderbird: a big line item in Thunderbird's current release is a progressive Rewrite in Rust. I read when they started this endeavor that they're excited to re-build the local email database specifically to support more modern queries, such as by thread or conversation. It sounded like they were interested in Rust for this task because it has a lot of safety and correctness baked-in, which they liked for the task.
Pulsar! its the revival of Atom and its going strong. yeah its still an electron app (obviously) but its snappy and featureful enough for me, and more importantly is packaged well. i'm excited to try Zed, but i won't until they package it for debian based distros/flatpak.
I use Fedora so I can use the packaging for Zed from Fedora but I agree, I don’t like how they are distributing the app on Linux. I hadn’t heard of Pulsar prior to the comments on this episode so that’s interesting but for me Sublime is so good that Atom couldn’t pull me away so I doubt Pulsar would be able to either
There is nothing wrong in installing software through a shell script. In fact I would even prefer that, because you can open the shell and see what it does and if you do not like something you can easily modify it. You can install malware through various pkg as well including, appimages, flatpaks or snaps. Installing using a script is the best way to insure it'll work on most unix/linux systems since shell and core utils are always there. While appimages, flatpaks or snaps utils might not be there. Especially for alpha and beta releases the first choice should be something that most have like shell scripts.
i hope metrics are done during the ooe (windows term but ya get it) since during install its easy to miss some things and skip through especially in fedora's (great feature, customizability and stability wise) very unfriendly installer, plus fedora doesn't even make you set up a user in the installer it'd be kinda weird if they asked you for data collection before even setting up a user
@@michael_tunnell mhm!, although in my experience although the looks are not the best, it's probably one of the most stable and functional installers on a linux distro out there and rarely fails me Just take a look at the partitioning wizard included with it compared to other distros that force me to bring up gparted or fdisk/cfdisk
I agree with the point about Zed and packaging, that's the only thing keeping me away for installing it on my base system currently. Am on a Debian based system, the Linux Mint Debian Edition 6.
As a new to Linux user, I hated Gnome until I figured out extensions were a thing and how to use them. I think it's a bad idea to make it so difficult to find them. I think an extension manager should come with the DE to make it easier to install. I personally find some of the choices for Gnome to be pretty strange which is why I gravitate towards KDE, but I also kinda like Gnome's aesthetic so it would be nice if it was easier to install extensions.
I hope thunderbird finds a way to ensure that you can apply your view settings to all folders. I don't like threaded view, but I need to set it up on each and every folder manually (I have a LOT of folders...). The best part of GNOME extension is their breaking after each update...
Zed curl|sh: this is horrible and lazy. Regardless of teaching users to install malware with confidence, this distribution method is born out of laziness/imaptience - instead of building and testing in multiple distributions and setups, you get this one size fits all shell script, where it the author was not extra diligent (which you know for a fact they aren't, otherwise they'd have packages) then a single misstep or missing quotes could mean destruction of user data or the system (if installing with sudo) - see the KDE store kerfuffle for reference. A well meaning curl|sh could be worse than a actual malware. A package can never destroy user data, or even custom configuration, by mistake.
I use Linux mint, so maybe they already collect data but I don't know. That being said I'm for opt out version if the data that is collected can be seen and verified by open source community. English not my first language so let me try and explain in what I mean. If Distro collects data, they should openly state what they are collecting and open source community should be able to verify that that's exactly what's going on. And the data that should be collected in my opinion should only be your hardware and that's it, nothing more. So that in crash case of some crashes team could know at least minimum. Further more there should be clear list of apps that could send this data together with crash report. For example I'm using Linux mint so mint project should state that we're only gonna pull data with crash from our sweep of apps. That is apps that mint project incorporated in their distro and are the ones that would recieve this data. In other words third party apps shouldn't be able to pull such data. So let's say you're using davinci resolve, this program shouldn't get access to users hardware unless user agrees to send it with crash reports, where's in case of Cinnamon crashing the data would be send automatically. In such case I'm for opt out , because in past decade I developed such paranoia fr data collection, that I will never willingly opt in to anything. If I see offer to opt in I will always decline it even if it's exactly the case that I described. It's not reasonable in such case but that's how it is. I think that such data collection is very reasonable and would move distro miles forward. There will be those who will ring all the bells of big brother watching us, but there are finally reasonable faces in Linux community with a voce that reaches regular people like me. I trust these people to some extent, to do a good job and I believe that they would report if distro is lying or over stepping in that case you can jump to other distro. But if distro is honest these same people will calm down community and then with extra data the leap in development should be going at the speed of light. And last thing, going back to scenario where distro lies and collects more data or makes it impossible to check what they are indeed collecting, in such case, community would speak up and distro hop. That's the beauty of Linux if one distro pisses me off I'll go to another. Linux is not ready yet for avg user, unless it's browsing and email only the its 100x better than windows!!!... Linux is not ready for avg user but I jumped the ship anyway since Windows is unusable at this point, contrary to Windows , skills that you learn on one distro, transfers to another. So if you distro of choice turns evil like Microsoft it's much easy to jump to another distro then to go from Windows to Linux. I'm for opt out.
Atom is really back! Check Pulsar Edit, which is a comunity-mantained fork! In my opinion Zed is interesting, but overblioted for my use casw (I dont need that IA integration or colaboration features, when I edit a personal project!, and they are niot optional. I am loving lite-xl which is written in C/Lua, is very fast and has a low memory footprint. Other interesting options are Lapce (which is also written in rust and uses the gpu) and cudatext (written in Pascal/Lazarus). Zed is somewhat slow to start for instance.
Lite-xl has many of the Zed features (sintax highlighting, support for language server protocol, themes, plugins incluidong one for an integrating termina)l but it is smaller and feels much faster! You can use it even if you have limited resoruces... you sould try it!
ALL data collected can be used for idenification. A basic connection to the internet is enough for basic ID. What the companies do with the info is the problem. Anonymous data collecting just means they don't stamp you name and login details with the data. Supposedly. But what about hardware id that is on everything from graphics to CPU, IP address, and all the internal metrics they don't discuss. Linux is no where near as bad, but some companies, I'm looking at you canonical, do log and store what appears to be excess data. We all remember the Amazon Cononical saga. I don't believe any one can 100% say they collect data anonymously, or data is anonymised as that is again throwing a lot of trust to companies that can monetised your data, if they chose.
So I'm a bit confused about no-X GNOME - does that mean no XWayland? As XWayland comes from the X-org project, I expect that to be the case, or "without X" is missing a large asterisk. I don't think it is terribly problematic for a lot of users - once Wine gets it's stable Wayland backend. I'm okay with saying "X11 software has to be ported to Wayland or if you need something really legacy - you can run it using Xephyr and you can figure it out yourself".
XWayland will be available by default, this acts more like a translation layer for X stuff and I don’t think needs X to be there to function. Quick note: all of it comes from Xorg, Wayland is made by Xorg too.
@@michael_tunnell when I wrote "X-org" I meant the software distribution, not the collection of people - I was pretty sure it was implied. The XWayland code is part of the X-org software distribution and as such "needs X11 to build'.
Side-loading debs now being partly supported in Ubuntu's gui... surely that isn't the front-page news. What have we come to? Ubuntu's gui partly-supports every aspect of using a computer... even down to the terminal the user needs to keep the gui working. (tbf they only hide it). If this is what they spend their time on I'm likely to stop using them even for the kids' pcs - ease of use is important, but less so than robustness. Idw the ability to side-load debs graphically, wiwi ubuntu's package manager to stop breaking the display drivers in ways that can't be rolled back. Most recent one is nvidia stopping supporting 390 and ubuntu turning everything up to 470 into transitional packages for 470
Gnome has an official extension hosting and web page, documentation and guidelines to make tem, the extension installer is part of the core apps. What more you need?
The documentation and guidelines are developed by the community, not the Gnome team. The Gnome devs do nothing to help with the development of extensions and constantly introduce breaking changes. As a maintainer, it’s really a pain as something which works for one version is unlikely to work for the next one. This means constant bug report from users complaining that the extension no longer works. He was also talking about the fact that the extension managers aren’t installed but default which makes them less accessible to new users.
@@Batwam0 the gnome team is the community. All are volunteers. Edited: also if they don't want extensions, why the extension installer is part of the core apps?
The extension manager app being installed by default. The extension website having any attention to it in 12 years. The extension website allowing videos to demonstrate what an extension actually does. They removed a bunch of fundamental features and said use an extension but then they make it pointlessly difficult for beginners to figure out what they need to do in order to use them. Plus the breaking of all extensions every 6 months for 13 years and no sign of fixing it ever is outright ridiculous. I stopped maintaining the 14 extensions I maintained many years ago for this exact reason it was tedious and pointless so I switched off GNOME because of their ignoring the community.
Also they aren’t all volunteers anymore, they pay developers for some things. They even receive specific funding to pay developers for specific features like the funding from the Sovereign Tech Fund. This is a good thing though, the idea that these developers shouldn’t be paid is baffling to me so I’m glad this isn’t the case now
Sheesh. I'm so nervous Michael. I've finally returned to the fold, for LIFE. The cost of clinging to Windows for gaming finally outweighed the benefit. Now I have to relearn gaming on Linux.
Those who can't Google "how to install a .deb package" and use GDebi or a terminal window SHOULD DO US THE FAVOR of not use GNU/Linux. They should just come back to their preferred full-of-bloatware OS.
Zed sucks, they optimized for mac like rtds and now they push Linux as an afterthought. It lags so much when typing a string or doing basic scrolling or anything
They just started talking about the removal recently so there’s no need to backtrack anything just yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve discussed it though, just the first time it’s possible to actually happen
9:55 no, advertising is not a necessity, it's an unfortunate reality. not the same thing. The way our ecosystem is structured is so backwards it's ridiculous that anyone could think that advertising is anything but malicious.
it boggles my mind that ubuntu and deb packages are such a hassle , this is another reason why mint should just ditch ubuntu and solely base itself off of debian. , LMDE for the win.
I'm not ok with ppa, I'm not ok with any data collection, full stop. These are exact reasons I moved over to Linux all those years ago, yet another reason not to bother with Firefox, avoid Ubuntu and Fedora 🙂 Zed is not even os, published under their weird licence, for which u need lawyer to understand it, no thanks. this episode allowed me to spot growing trend mainstream Linux turning itself slowly into one blob of not necessarily open source, used to farm as much data from it users as possible, as this can easily be converted into $ these days...
I respect your position and I understand not everyone will be okay with metrics. As someone who deals with marketing and advertising and needs metrics to justify making this show, I am more open to metrics. For example, I need to know how many are subscribed, how many watch each episode, when shows are watched and that sort of thing to be able to sell advertising on my show, which is a necessity for me to be able to make this show. This is why I am very open to metrics if they are done properly. I don't think everyone should agree with me though so I get why people dont like it. I just think that the position of no metrics at all is detrimental to project growth, if I had no metrics then I would never be able to make this show for as long as I have. Zed seems to be released under 3 licenses: GPL3, AGPL, and Apache. All of these licenses are 100% open source compatible licenses so I am not sure what you mean. please clarify.
I respect your perspective on the matter but I disagree because as long as the user is prompted by the question I don’t think it matters which option is selected at first as long as the user is properly given the choice
@@michael_tunnell Unfortunately, users are, historically speaking, the greatest weakness of any system. Many, potentially most, will not even read the limited text during the install and just click next. Then there's the data gathered and it's usage. I know fedora said all the right things about that and I do admit it sounds nice. But, just as an example, we just had the XZ hack, same thing could happen any time at fedora. The only way to be safe is to not gather the data in the first place. And setting the default to on will mean a lot of people will end up skipping over it or just blindly clicking next. Finally, my stance on this would probably also be different if I wasn't burned by opt-out things so many times in the past. There's a reason for all the distrust out there.
Extensions should not be available in default user experience of GNOME. Default user experience should be designed for typical end user who doesn't care about customization and doesn't understand how computers work. There is no need to offer extensions by default for them. Designing for inexperienced typical end users is one of major differences between GNOME and other desktops like KDE where user may be overwhelmed by amount of options.
Extensions shouldn’t be needed but GNOME insists on leaving out fundamental features that people want and this forces users to look into extensions. It’s unfortunate but after 10 years of people trying to convince GNOME to bring back app menus in the system tray, no progress has been made. However with that said, GNOME also makes it painful to use extensions because by default there is no info about them existing, how to get them, where to get them, or anything else. This is double edge sword but both sides just cut the user
@@michael_tunnell There is no need for app menus or system tray, similarly to desktop icons. That's GNOME's design to not have these elements. I don't see any problem here.
@@tomaszgasior772100% I agree. I don’t see why should I be forced to have these things I don’t use. If people don’t like they can go use KDE and have a terrible broken time there.
I use the default GNOME layout and workflow, and I am absolutely honest here: I share their philosophy on these things. I don't use app tray icons - first, because there is the background apps menu, and second, because I prefer to have messengers, for example, open in a separate workspace. The only modifications I make after installing Fedora are adding additional window buttons (minimize and maximize-I don't understand GNOME's point of view here) and the Blur My Shell extension (which I love very much). However, I agree with Michael: extension support should be enabled by default and advertised to users.
@@michael_tunnell 😂 Sorry it has nothing to do with the points you brought up. Though, I completely agree with you. Primarily the Red Hat license change has me deeply concerned about corporate backed distros. Also Snaps did not work out like I'd hoped... 😬
@meh.7539 honestly the Red Hat license change makes perfect sense to me. I think the idea that a company should spend millions of dollars and employ thousands of employees for decades only to have the community hate them because they don’t like companies literally copying them and offering no additional value is baffling to me. Ubuntu has derivatives but they all do something different and there are pros and cons to each distro and that’s fine to me but all of the RHEL clones advertised themselves and 1:1 exact copies. I don’t get why people insist they should be happy about that. Sure they handled the PR part of the decision incredibly poorly but that’s the only issue I see
@@michael_tunnell " I think the idea that a company should spend millions of dollars and employ thousands of employees for decades only to have the community hate them because they don’t like companies literally copying them and offering no additional value is baffling to me." Well... To be clear, I don't hate them I just don't trust them any more. If they want to keep their code closed source, that's fine. Then don't release the code. The issue I have is that Red Hat is complaining that people forked a distribution (which is perfectly acceptable to do) and maintained it in a way that made it compatible with the original at a patch level. Now, I *completely* understand that you don't need to spend the money on RedHat if you're a personal user or studying for your RH cert(s) but that's not the actual problem. The problem originated because Red Hat was providing support for patch compatible distributions. They should have put a stop to that policy instead of re-architecting how they build their linux distributions to break patch compatibility. They made serious technical changes to the architecture of their product. The ONLY reason a very large company does that is because there's a benefit to the company later on down the line. To me it says 2 things: they're not done and it's going to be worse. I don't want to be in a position where-I'm sorry, ANOTHER position (former windows user, here) where I'm locked into another operating system that continues to suck worse and worse. It's because they're stealing from the community and that doesn't square with my value system. Now, counterpoint. Is there something to be said of the community that they are so objected to paying licensing fees to the detriment of businesses and the community itself? Yeah, probably. We're probably a little too cheap for our own good. The community needs to get better about putting money back into itself. No question. I'm not saying Red Hat and their employees *don't* deserve to be paid for their work. Far from it. They do GOOD work. Businesses **should** pay them for their product because it's a good product. But don't try to steal from the community and tell me it's for our benefit.
@@michael_tunnell The fact that they were patch compatible WAS the feature. It's not a feature **I** would want, personally, but people wanted it. If they don't want to support non-RH servers they don't have to, they can keep better records of who their customers are and what their licenses allow them to have. However, they didn't change how they handle their *business* , they changed how they made their *product* to make it harder to attain that patch level compatibility. In doing that they stole from the community. How Red Hat "feels" shouldn't matter to the community;, how the community feels should matter to red hat. Without the community there would be no Red Hat. They've forgotten that and they're going to continue to steal from the community. If the community doesn't take a stand against it now, I'm afraid Canonical will follow them. Their PR sucked because it didn't need to be good. They didn't care how the community felt about it.
My guy, people in the comments have been telling you about the video quality issues for a couple videos now, and you go and introduce video-audio desync to the mix? That's disappointing...
An opt-out proposal was published a year ago and the Fedora community voted against it, it got discarded. You're just giving up on a whole distro after a video, get involved once in a while instead of critizicing for the sake of it, if you don't want to get involved then don't and move on.
Fedora has never done any changes without first overtly expressing the intent and that’s how it’s always been for over 20 years. I’m confident that will continue
@@GsK380.official change proposals are also used when adding new features - doesn't necessarily mean the opposite was used previously. this opt-in data collection is actually 2nd version of this particular feature. the first version was data collection with less transparency how the data is handled and being opt-out. they got some major community backlash and deservedly so, which lead to the current iteration of the proposal
No this is not something that already exists. As @LaBBe_ stated that these are simply called Change Proposals and they are applied to everything because they are “changing Fedora” in some way and that means anything that alters the current state of the distribution is relevant to be a Change Proposal.
@@michael_tunnell There's tumbler right after installing Fedora - about sending reports of problems automatically, this - will be now merged with this change proposal and it will be opt-in, so, they add more clarification + new type of telemetry and old stated telemetry and not opt-out as that was handled before
I respect Fedora for dropping X11. It will never really be deprecated until distros start dropping it. It also means fewer man-hours being distracted with X11 support.
Since nvidia 555 driver, Wayland Fedora 40 has been running fantastic for me
Same here. I had a couple of video programs that were the only reason I was still using x11 and I no longer need to with 555. Yay!
I always turn data collection to max on KDE, I hope it helps the project.
I trust fedora they are doing things the right way, you have to be an extremist to be against opt in data collection with a lot of documentation of what they are going to do.
yes. this is reasonable.
Yup, holding multiple values and principles in tension/balance is a requirement of adulthood in a complex world.
Im 60 years old..... I have learned to TRUST NO ONE!
fedora is linux experiment ground, everyone benefit with their contributions since is open source software that everyone can potentially use, not just red hat. Fedora is key to the linux ecosystem.
I'd like to compliment your audio; it's almost always excellent. Turned 50 and the cranked 80s rock of my yut is coming back to haunt me a little. So TY. 😀
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoy the effort I put into the audio, there’s quite a bit of post processing each week so very happy it’s noticed and appreciated 😎👍
Fedora has always been Red Hat's experiment ground, and they have a track record of doing stuff like this (hell, they were among the first to make Wayland the default on the GNOME session) so I'm hardly surprised that when the option to build GNOME without X11 came, that Fedora took it.
Edit: It's great that the GNOME extension website is getting an update! It's basically been the same since the start of extensions around the release of GNOME 3.2, and it really needs an overhaul.
they are linux experiment ground, everyone benefit with their contributions since is open source software that everyone can use, not just red hat.
Fedora explicit mission is to test and work on the latest open source solutions, if you think you deduced it then congratulations on not reading it.
So long as data is actually anonymised, telemetry is not a big deal.
Fully agree with your polite rant about Gnome extensions being overly hard for a Linux newbie to learn about and use. Certain gnome extensions are a big reason why I didn't abandon Linux after switching from Windows. I encourage the Gnome devs to directly integrate some of the more popular extensions into Gnome as options. Especially Dash-To-Panel.
Man these week updates are crazy, I'm so happy!
Agreed, thanks for commenting too and what’s the most interesting topic to you this episode?
@@michael_tunnell surely gnome news, since I'm a wayland + nvidia gnome user, thanks for the episode!
For the record, you cannot close the OEM setup that GNOME has. GNOME is non-functional until it is finished, as that is where your user account is set up. So I think its actually better if it's there, personally.
Yeah, having these settings in one place could be quite convenient.
I didn’t know it requires involvement, I know I once closed it without going through it but that was a while ago and I don’t remember which version of GNOME I was using at the time
@@michael_tunnell Maybe you're thinking of the GNOME Tour app. The OEM setup screen is not skippable.
Linux news in a show,
TuxDigital's finest hour,
Thank you, Michael and crew.
Thunderbird uses a yearly release schedule as of now, but they're planning to make monthly releases. Previously , monthly releases were beta versions. The last "ESR" is Thunderbird 115 Supernova.
I tjink they're also planning to support threaded conversations. For now, there's an extension that works really well.
Oh I see they just don’t label stuff as ESR like I don’t believe 115 was labeled that way. It’s great they are planning to support threaded conversations! Thanks for sharing the info! I have tried the extension for that feature and it’s been really wonky for me so I stopped using Thunderbird at that time
@@michael_tunnell I think my previous comment(s) were hidden as potential spam due to the links, but what I said without the links was:
Yeah, 115 doesn't seem to have been officially labelled as an ESR (in fact, in a post last year regarding the lack of Thunderbird Sync in 115 they said "We don’t have a solid release date, but our objective is to have Thunderbird Sync finished in time for the next ESR release, or shortly after we switch to a monthly release schedule").
The last official ESR notification I found was for Thunderbird 78 from 2020.
I'm not a developer, so have no need for an IDE, Sublime has filled my simple needs for years. But I was curious about Zed so installed the preview version yesterday from the AUR to try out.
My impressions? As advertised, it's blazing fast. Uses Vulkan for rendering, so that probably helps too. If you open a file type that it has extensions for, it offers to install them. The interface is clean, if a little confusing at first. Settings are JSON and pretty easy to understand and edit. Depends on Node for a lot of it's extensions and other things, so it's user directories can grow pretty fast. Overall, I say it has potential.
However, it's still pretty young. There's a lot of languages it has no support for, or only rudimentary at best. I can see in the future it being real competition for VS Code, it's certainly way faster with a smaller footprint. It's got a lot of potential, but it's not there yet. I wish the devs all the luck, they have a real competitor in that space on their hands.
As said, I'm not a developer and have no need for an IDE. I kicked the tires for a while, was fairly impressed, and uninstalled it. Sublime still fills all my needs.
Editor
Well, you asked what editor i use. And that is the ultimate editor Vim, more specifically its Super Saiyan variant NeoVim.
A note about your wishlist item for better threads (conversations) in Thunderbird: a big line item in Thunderbird's current release is a progressive Rewrite in Rust. I read when they started this endeavor that they're excited to re-build the local email database specifically to support more modern queries, such as by thread or conversation. It sounded like they were interested in Rust for this task because it has a lot of safety and correctness baked-in, which they liked for the task.
That sounds promising, hopefully it does happen
Another great episode, as always.
I always look forward to you shows.
Pulsar! its the revival of Atom and its going strong. yeah its still an electron app (obviously) but its snappy and featureful enough for me, and more importantly is packaged well. i'm excited to try Zed, but i won't until they package it for debian based distros/flatpak.
I use Fedora so I can use the packaging for Zed from Fedora but I agree, I don’t like how they are distributing the app on Linux. I hadn’t heard of Pulsar prior to the comments on this episode so that’s interesting but for me Sublime is so good that Atom couldn’t pull me away so I doubt Pulsar would be able to either
I always put new messages at the top and check unthreaded messages, so at least one step less for configuring TB. Yay!
There is nothing wrong in installing software through a shell script. In fact I would even prefer that, because you can open the shell and see what it does and if you do not like something you can easily modify it. You can install malware through various pkg as well including, appimages, flatpaks or snaps.
Installing using a script is the best way to insure it'll work on most unix/linux systems since shell and core utils are always there. While appimages, flatpaks or snaps utils might not be there. Especially for alpha and beta releases the first choice should be something that most have like shell scripts.
i hope metrics are done during the ooe (windows term but ya get it) since during install its easy to miss some things and skip through especially in fedora's (great feature, customizability and stability wise) very unfriendly installer, plus fedora doesn't even make you set up a user in the installer it'd be kinda weird if they asked you for data collection before even setting up a user
Great point! And Fedora’s installer needs some work too so yea you’re probably right about that
@@michael_tunnell mhm!, although in my experience although the looks are not the best, it's probably one of the most stable and functional installers on a linux distro out there and rarely fails me
Just take a look at the partitioning wizard included with it compared to other distros that force me to bring up gparted or fdisk/cfdisk
I agree with the point about Zed and packaging, that's the only thing keeping me away for installing it on my base system currently. Am on a Debian based system, the Linux Mint Debian Edition 6.
As a new to Linux user, I hated Gnome until I figured out extensions were a thing and how to use them. I think it's a bad idea to make it so difficult to find them. I think an extension manager should come with the DE to make it easier to install. I personally find some of the choices for Gnome to be pretty strange which is why I gravitate towards KDE, but I also kinda like Gnome's aesthetic so it would be nice if it was easier to install extensions.
Extensions: Making GNOME usable.
I hope thunderbird finds a way to ensure that you can apply your view settings to all folders. I don't like threaded view, but I need to set it up on each and every folder manually (I have a LOT of folders...).
The best part of GNOME extension is their breaking after each update...
insane, been waiting for Zed such a long time...
Same
Zed curl|sh: this is horrible and lazy. Regardless of teaching users to install malware with confidence, this distribution method is born out of laziness/imaptience - instead of building and testing in multiple distributions and setups, you get this one size fits all shell script, where it the author was not extra diligent (which you know for a fact they aren't, otherwise they'd have packages) then a single misstep or missing quotes could mean destruction of user data or the system (if installing with sudo) - see the KDE store kerfuffle for reference. A well meaning curl|sh could be worse than a actual malware. A package can never destroy user data, or even custom configuration, by mistake.
they don't need Vim mode, as we all happy on NeoVim, and we not leave for sublime clone...
I use Linux mint, so maybe they already collect data but I don't know. That being said I'm for opt out version if the data that is collected can be seen and verified by open source community. English not my first language so let me try and explain in what I mean. If Distro collects data, they should openly state what they are collecting and open source community should be able to verify that that's exactly what's going on. And the data that should be collected in my opinion should only be your hardware and that's it, nothing more. So that in crash case of some crashes team could know at least minimum.
Further more there should be clear list of apps that could send this data together with crash report. For example I'm using Linux mint so mint project should state that we're only gonna pull data with crash from our sweep of apps. That is apps that mint project incorporated in their distro and are the ones that would recieve this data. In other words third party apps shouldn't be able to pull such data. So let's say you're using davinci resolve, this program shouldn't get access to users hardware unless user agrees to send it with crash reports, where's in case of Cinnamon crashing the data would be send automatically.
In such case I'm for opt out , because in past decade I developed such paranoia fr data collection, that I will never willingly opt in to anything. If I see offer to opt in I will always decline it even if it's exactly the case that I described. It's not reasonable in such case but that's how it is.
I think that such data collection is very reasonable and would move distro miles forward. There will be those who will ring all the bells of big brother watching us, but there are finally reasonable faces in Linux community with a voce that reaches regular people like me. I trust these people to some extent, to do a good job and I believe that they would report if distro is lying or over stepping in that case you can jump to other distro. But if distro is honest these same people will calm down community and then with extra data the leap in development should be going at the speed of light.
And last thing, going back to scenario where distro lies and collects more data or makes it impossible to check what they are indeed collecting, in such case, community would speak up and distro hop.
That's the beauty of Linux if one distro pisses me off I'll go to another. Linux is not ready yet for avg user, unless it's browsing and email only the its 100x better than windows!!!... Linux is not ready for avg user but I jumped the ship anyway since Windows is unusable at this point, contrary to Windows , skills that you learn on one distro, transfers to another. So if you distro of choice turns evil like Microsoft it's much easy to jump to another distro then to go from Windows to Linux.
I'm for opt out.
Atom is really back! Check Pulsar Edit, which is a comunity-mantained fork! In my opinion Zed is interesting, but overblioted for my use casw (I dont need that IA integration or colaboration features, when I edit a personal project!, and they are niot optional. I am loving lite-xl which is written in C/Lua, is very fast and has a low memory footprint. Other interesting options are Lapce (which is also written in rust and uses the gpu) and cudatext (written in Pascal/Lazarus). Zed is somewhat slow to start for instance.
Lite-xl has many of the Zed features (sintax highlighting, support for language server protocol, themes, plugins incluidong one for an integrating termina)l but it is smaller and feels much faster! You can use it even if you have limited resoruces... you sould try it!
ALL data collected can be used for idenification. A basic connection to the internet is enough for basic ID. What the companies do with the info is the problem. Anonymous data collecting just means they don't stamp you name and login details with the data. Supposedly. But what about hardware id that is on everything from graphics to CPU, IP address, and all the internal metrics they don't discuss. Linux is no where near as bad, but some companies, I'm looking at you canonical, do log and store what appears to be excess data. We all remember the Amazon Cononical saga.
I don't believe any one can 100% say they collect data anonymously, or data is anonymised as that is again throwing a lot of trust to companies that can monetised your data, if they chose.
So I'm a bit confused about no-X GNOME - does that mean no XWayland? As XWayland comes from the X-org project, I expect that to be the case, or "without X" is missing a large asterisk. I don't think it is terribly problematic for a lot of users - once Wine gets it's stable Wayland backend. I'm okay with saying "X11 software has to be ported to Wayland or if you need something really legacy - you can run it using Xephyr and you can figure it out yourself".
XWayland will be available by default, this acts more like a translation layer for X stuff and I don’t think needs X to be there to function. Quick note: all of it comes from Xorg, Wayland is made by Xorg too.
@@michael_tunnell when I wrote "X-org" I meant the software distribution, not the collection of people - I was pretty sure it was implied. The XWayland code is part of the X-org software distribution and as such "needs X11 to build'.
sudo apt thunderbird, but not sudo apt thunderbird-esr🤔 BTW thunderbird esr tarball won't display the Thunderbird icon on MX Linux🤔 Guhnome😇
Zed doesn't have debugging support
Side-loading debs now being partly supported in Ubuntu's gui... surely that isn't the front-page news. What have we come to? Ubuntu's gui partly-supports every aspect of using a computer... even down to the terminal the user needs to keep the gui working. (tbf they only hide it). If this is what they spend their time on I'm likely to stop using them even for the kids' pcs - ease of use is important, but less so than robustness. Idw the ability to side-load debs graphically, wiwi ubuntu's package manager to stop breaking the display drivers in ways that can't be rolled back. Most recent one is nvidia stopping supporting 390 and ubuntu turning everything up to 470 into transitional packages for 470
Gnome has an official extension hosting and web page, documentation and guidelines to make tem, the extension installer is part of the core apps. What more you need?
The documentation and guidelines are developed by the community, not the Gnome team. The Gnome devs do nothing to help with the development of extensions and constantly introduce breaking changes. As a maintainer, it’s really a pain as something which works for one version is unlikely to work for the next one. This means constant bug report from users complaining that the extension no longer works. He was also talking about the fact that the extension managers aren’t installed but default which makes them less accessible to new users.
@@Batwam0 the gnome team is the community. All are volunteers.
Edited: also if they don't want extensions, why the extension installer is part of the core apps?
The extension manager app being installed by default. The extension website having any attention to it in 12 years. The extension website allowing videos to demonstrate what an extension actually does. They removed a bunch of fundamental features and said use an extension but then they make it pointlessly difficult for beginners to figure out what they need to do in order to use them. Plus the breaking of all extensions every 6 months for 13 years and no sign of fixing it ever is outright ridiculous. I stopped maintaining the 14 extensions I maintained many years ago for this exact reason it was tedious and pointless so I switched off GNOME because of their ignoring the community.
Also they aren’t all volunteers anymore, they pay developers for some things. They even receive specific funding to pay developers for specific features like the funding from the Sovereign Tech Fund. This is a good thing though, the idea that these developers shouldn’t be paid is baffling to me so I’m glad this isn’t the case now
@@michael_tunnell I think that you could make a video sharing your experience. Maybe that will help to make more people aware.
Sheesh. I'm so nervous Michael. I've finally returned to the fold, for LIFE. The cost of clinging to Windows for gaming finally outweighed the benefit. Now I have to relearn gaming on Linux.
Welcome back to the fold 😎 and gaming on Linux isn’t that bad, just use Steam and everything is pretty much golden 👍
I wouldn't care about Wayland if it wasn't for global hotkeys.
Those who can't Google "how to install a .deb package" and use GDebi or a terminal window SHOULD DO US THE FAVOR of not use GNU/Linux. They should just come back to their preferred full-of-bloatware OS.
👍
you not using Pulsar editor? its a fork of atom. been using it since atom died. was a drop in replacement. keen to try zed
not a fork but devs from Atom are now working on Zed
I didn’t switch to atom from Sublime Text so a fork of atom wouldn’t get me to switch either. Zed looks very compelling though
Zed sucks, they optimized for mac like rtds and now they push Linux as an afterthought. It lags so much when typing a string or doing basic scrolling or anything
They did work on it before the release, it's pretty fast and smooth now
X11 removal was backtracked iirc.
They just started talking about the removal recently so there’s no need to backtrack anything just yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve discussed it though, just the first time it’s possible to actually happen
9:55 no, advertising is not a necessity, it's an unfortunate reality. not the same thing. The way our ecosystem is structured is so backwards it's ridiculous that anyone could think that advertising is anything but malicious.
So when I have ads in this show that means I’m being malicious to viewers in your opinion?
@@michael_tunnellyes and I block them with sponsorblock and you can cope and seethe about it.
it boggles my mind that ubuntu and deb packages are such a hassle , this is another reason why mint should just ditch ubuntu and solely base itself off of debian. , LMDE for the win.
If you want to be spied on and advertised to Microsoft already has an OS for that.
I'm not ok with ppa, I'm not ok with any data collection, full stop. These are exact reasons I moved over to Linux all those years ago, yet another reason not to bother with Firefox, avoid Ubuntu and Fedora 🙂 Zed is not even os, published under their weird licence, for which u need lawyer to understand it, no thanks. this episode allowed me to spot growing trend mainstream Linux turning itself slowly into one blob of not necessarily open source, used to farm as much data from it users as possible, as this can easily be converted into $ these days...
I respect your position and I understand not everyone will be okay with metrics. As someone who deals with marketing and advertising and needs metrics to justify making this show, I am more open to metrics. For example, I need to know how many are subscribed, how many watch each episode, when shows are watched and that sort of thing to be able to sell advertising on my show, which is a necessity for me to be able to make this show. This is why I am very open to metrics if they are done properly. I don't think everyone should agree with me though so I get why people dont like it. I just think that the position of no metrics at all is detrimental to project growth, if I had no metrics then I would never be able to make this show for as long as I have.
Zed seems to be released under 3 licenses: GPL3, AGPL, and Apache. All of these licenses are 100% open source compatible licenses so I am not sure what you mean. please clarify.
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I hate gnome extensions
Under 30 minutes and 200 views team!!
I will simply be uninstalling any telemetry package Fedora ships.
Opt out is never ok, for anything.
I respect your perspective on the matter but I disagree because as long as the user is prompted by the question I don’t think it matters which option is selected at first as long as the user is properly given the choice
@@michael_tunnell Unfortunately, users are, historically speaking, the greatest weakness of any system. Many, potentially most, will not even read the limited text during the install and just click next.
Then there's the data gathered and it's usage. I know fedora said all the right things about that and I do admit it sounds nice. But, just as an example, we just had the XZ hack, same thing could happen any time at fedora. The only way to be safe is to not gather the data in the first place. And setting the default to on will mean a lot of people will end up skipping over it or just blindly clicking next.
Finally, my stance on this would probably also be different if I wasn't burned by opt-out things so many times in the past. There's a reason for all the distrust out there.
I'm so happy other desktop distros still keep X11.
They will all ship Wayland only at some point, it’s more of a matter of when that happens than if it happens. However yea, there are times I prefer X
yes the gnome developers are arrogant and ignorant. It has long been known that they are indifferent to the wishes of the users
Unsubscribed, at another platform subscribed, ciao YT!
Which platform did you subscribe on?
Extensions should not be available in default user experience of GNOME. Default user experience should be designed for typical end user who doesn't care about customization and doesn't understand how computers work. There is no need to offer extensions by default for them. Designing for inexperienced typical end users is one of major differences between GNOME and other desktops like KDE where user may be overwhelmed by amount of options.
the issue is that Gnome and typical user + typical developer are not in agreement
Extensions shouldn’t be needed but GNOME insists on leaving out fundamental features that people want and this forces users to look into extensions. It’s unfortunate but after 10 years of people trying to convince GNOME to bring back app menus in the system tray, no progress has been made. However with that said, GNOME also makes it painful to use extensions because by default there is no info about them existing, how to get them, where to get them, or anything else. This is double edge sword but both sides just cut the user
@@michael_tunnell There is no need for app menus or system tray, similarly to desktop icons. That's GNOME's design to not have these elements. I don't see any problem here.
@@tomaszgasior772100% I agree. I don’t see why should I be forced to have these things I don’t use. If people don’t like they can go use KDE and have a terrible broken time there.
I use the default GNOME layout and workflow, and I am absolutely honest here: I share their philosophy on these things. I don't use app tray icons - first, because there is the background apps menu, and second, because I prefer to have messengers, for example, open in a separate workspace. The only modifications I make after installing Fedora are adding additional window buttons (minimize and maximize-I don't understand GNOME's point of view here) and the Blur My Shell extension (which I love very much).
However, I agree with Michael: extension support should be enabled by default and advertised to users.
I need to get away from Ubuntu...
Why? This issue is annoying but it’s not a malicious thing or anything like that. Are there other reasons?
@@michael_tunnell 😂 Sorry it has nothing to do with the points you brought up. Though, I completely agree with you.
Primarily the Red Hat license change has me deeply concerned about corporate backed distros. Also Snaps did not work out like I'd hoped... 😬
@meh.7539 honestly the Red Hat license change makes perfect sense to me. I think the idea that a company should spend millions of dollars and employ thousands of employees for decades only to have the community hate them because they don’t like companies literally copying them and offering no additional value is baffling to me. Ubuntu has derivatives but they all do something different and there are pros and cons to each distro and that’s fine to me but all of the RHEL clones advertised themselves and 1:1 exact copies. I don’t get why people insist they should be happy about that. Sure they handled the PR part of the decision incredibly poorly but that’s the only issue I see
@@michael_tunnell " I think the idea that a company should spend millions of dollars and employ thousands of employees for decades only to have the community hate them because they don’t like companies literally copying them and offering no additional value is baffling to me."
Well... To be clear, I don't hate them I just don't trust them any more. If they want to keep their code closed source, that's fine. Then don't release the code. The issue I have is that Red Hat is complaining that people forked a distribution (which is perfectly acceptable to do) and maintained it in a way that made it compatible with the original at a patch level.
Now, I *completely* understand that you don't need to spend the money on RedHat if you're a personal user or studying for your RH cert(s) but that's not the actual problem. The problem originated because Red Hat was providing support for patch compatible distributions. They should have put a stop to that policy instead of re-architecting how they build their linux distributions to break patch compatibility. They made serious technical changes to the architecture of their product. The ONLY reason a very large company does that is because there's a benefit to the company later on down the line. To me it says 2 things: they're not done and it's going to be worse. I don't want to be in a position where-I'm sorry, ANOTHER position (former windows user, here) where I'm locked into another operating system that continues to suck worse and worse.
It's because they're stealing from the community and that doesn't square with my value system.
Now, counterpoint. Is there something to be said of the community that they are so objected to paying licensing fees to the detriment of businesses and the community itself? Yeah, probably. We're probably a little too cheap for our own good. The community needs to get better about putting money back into itself. No question. I'm not saying Red Hat and their employees *don't* deserve to be paid for their work. Far from it. They do GOOD work. Businesses **should** pay them for their product because it's a good product. But don't try to steal from the community and tell me it's for our benefit.
@@michael_tunnell The fact that they were patch compatible WAS the feature. It's not a feature **I** would want, personally, but people wanted it. If they don't want to support non-RH servers they don't have to, they can keep better records of who their customers are and what their licenses allow them to have. However, they didn't change how they handle their *business* , they changed how they made their *product* to make it harder to attain that patch level compatibility. In doing that they stole from the community.
How Red Hat "feels" shouldn't matter to the community;, how the community feels should matter to red hat. Without the community there would be no Red Hat. They've forgotten that and they're going to continue to steal from the community. If the community doesn't take a stand against it now, I'm afraid Canonical will follow them.
Their PR sucked because it didn't need to be good. They didn't care how the community felt about it.
My guy, people in the comments have been telling you about the video quality issues for a couple videos now, and you go and introduce video-audio desync to the mix? That's disappointing...
the mix was synced before upload
11th view lol
2:55 thats ibm shit infecting a great os, what a pitty, another distro lost
An opt-out proposal was published a year ago and the Fedora community voted against it, it got discarded. You're just giving up on a whole distro after a video, get involved once in a while instead of critizicing for the sake of it, if you don't want to get involved then don't and move on.
@@habios you are right, thanks habios
3:40 Next year its opt out
in 3 years it is hidden in menus
in 5 years it is no longer opt out without hacks
Boil the frogs!!
Fedora has never done any changes without first overtly expressing the intent and that’s how it’s always been for over 20 years. I’m confident that will continue
@@GsK380.official change proposals are also used when adding new features - doesn't necessarily mean the opposite was used previously. this opt-in data collection is actually 2nd version of this particular feature. the first version was data collection with less transparency how the data is handled and being opt-out. they got some major community backlash and deservedly so, which lead to the current iteration of the proposal
No this is not something that already exists. As @LaBBe_ stated that these are simply called Change Proposals and they are applied to everything because they are “changing Fedora” in some way and that means anything that alters the current state of the distribution is relevant to be a Change Proposal.
@@michael_tunnell There's tumbler right after installing Fedora - about sending reports of problems automatically, this - will be now merged with this change proposal and it will be opt-in, so, they add more clarification + new type of telemetry and old stated telemetry and not opt-out as that was handled before
Last year a proposal for opt-out was taken down after Fedora community voted against it and Fesco had no option than discard it.